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Comments on: Palm Product Manager Talks Nova

Palm OS NovaThe latest gossip on Palm OS Nova comes from PCMag.com, where Sascha Segan has squeezed a few clues about the new OS out of Palm's director of product management, Stephane Maes. Saying that Nova will see Palm "getting back to our roots with simplicity and elegance", Maes goes on to talk about how it will "focus on integrating different kinds of data stored in different locations".

"It's a Web-enabled world, where people have contacts in multiple locations. You start thinking about all of the different places where people have information, it's really about managing people's lives. That's a lot of the heritage we're really going to leverage and expand on going forward."

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Wait a minute...

Marshall Flinkman @ 2/1/2008 12:26:33 PM # Q
"Now, the unnamed new OS that wags have been calling 'Nova' or "Palm OS II' isn't the Linux-based OS that Palm was going to use last year. That product, the Access Linux Platform, didn't meet Palm's standards, Maes said."

The idea that Palm was *ever* going to use ALP is news, seeing as they were silent when ALP was announced and then said they had their own Linux OS in the works. Sounds like someone needs some fact-checking.

RE: Wait a minute...
hkklife @ 2/1/2008 2:16:17 PM # Q
I think the author got confused w.r.t. Access' A.L.P. vs. Palm's "earlier" WindRiver Linux distro for the Fooleo vs. Palm's new in-house Linux-based Nova/Palm OS II.

And the part about PDAs? Palm is just using the "we'll wait for WiMax" excuse as an excuse to not release any new non-smartphone products. Face it, folks--Palm might as well go ahead and merge with Sprint because they are TOTALLY a carrier-driven company at this stage of the game.

Anything Palm might do at this point--release new PDAs, sell VOIP handsets, turn their attention to WiMax etc etc--is not going to happen out of fear it might damage their often-tenuous relationships with the carriers (think T-Mob, AT&T, and Verizon).

The point of the whole article (and a shame it wasn't simply stated directly) is that the whole PalmOne/PalmSource spinoff thing was a disaster for everyone involved (mostly the loyal POS usebase & developer community) save a select few who were privvy to the whole smoke'n mirrors shell game the entire time.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

what is Palm's problem?
tompi @ 2/2/2008 1:30:37 PM # Q
What Palm should really do is port Android to the Centro and Treo hardware as quickly as possible.

They can then still worry about doing their own Linux-based system in the future if they really think there's a market opportunity. And the experience with Android, as well as a functioning Linux kernel, should give them a head start.

I don't get what Palm's problem is: they're shipping Windows Mobile, a company that cloned and screwed them over and costs them on every shipment, but they refuse to ship an operating system that costs them nothing in licensing fees?


RE: Wait a minute...
RussianGuy @ 2/2/2008 5:24:03 PM # Q
What Palm should really do is to make Nova much better than Android and then sell it for a fee to a multitude Android device owners.

Just wishful thinking...

RE: Wait a minute...
freakout @ 2/2/2008 8:53:30 PM # Q
I don't get what Palm's problem is: they're shipping Windows Mobile, a company that cloned and screwed them over and costs them on every shipment, but they refuse to ship an operating system that costs them nothing in licensing fees?

Well, for starters, you can't "refuse to ship" something that isn't even available yet. But more importantly, selling Windows Mobile devices gives Palm sales opportunities in Microsoft-only IT infrastructures, of which there are many. Android offers no such opportunities.

IMO, it would be stupid for them to go with Android. Outsourcing their primary OS has already proven to be an absolute disaster that left them rudderless for years as they waited for Palmsource to produce something viable. Are we really eager for them to go down that path again?

I'm certainly not. Steady as she goes.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Wait a minute...
Marshall Flinkman @ 2/4/2008 5:46:29 PM # Q
While I think there would be a difference between going with Android and their experience with PalmSource (namely that Android has several companies signed on and a heavyweight referee in Google), Palm probably wants to stand out from the crowd and sees creating their own OS as the best way to do that. All the "control of their own destiny" rah-rah line. Hard to say more than "time will tell" on that point for now. I'm looking to stay neutral between the "sounds great if/when it ever happens" talk and all the FUD from the cynics out there.

From Palm's standpoint, the main reason to do Windows Mobile (as opposed to some other OS while they get Nova off the ground) is demand. Demand from corporate customers and overseas markets. They're not big enough to pursue, say, 5 different OSes and see which ones stick.

I want to see them actually get Nova off the ground and have a successful release. I want the first Nova GSM device to be as compelling (for me) as the iPhone was for the initial buyers last summer. So I'm torn between "Hurry up!" and "Get it right!"

RE: Wait a minute...
tompi @ 2/6/2008 12:13:37 AM # Q
Well, for starters, you can't "refuse to ship" something that isn't even available yet.

Of course it's available to manufacturers. Other manufacturers are busy making products.

Android offers no such opportunities.

Android offers the opportunity of an integrated on-line experience. That's the future.

Outsourcing their primary OS has already proven to be an absolute disaster

If they had not sold it off, it would have been just as bad. The problem with PalmOS is that it's an outdated view of what a phone operating system should do.

I'm certainly not. Steady as she goes.

And for me, it doesn't matter how good Nova may be; what matters to me is how well connected the platform is and hope open it is. And there, you can't beat Android: it's going to be integrated with Google's on-line services, yet it's also fully open and easy to program.

RE: Wait a minute...
tompi @ 2/6/2008 12:21:58 AM # Q
Palm probably wants to stand out from the crowd and sees creating their own OS as the best way to do that

And in what way do you think Nova can stand out from the crowd? "The crowd" consists of mature, efficient multitasking mobile operating systems with support for 3D graphics, GPS, and any networking protocol and user interface you can imagine.

The way to stand out is with services. Android has a good and maturing on-line presence behind it (Google). Palm has no significant on-line user community and little experience (they could have if they hadn't dropped the ball with the Palm VII).

RE: Wait a minute...
freakout @ 2/6/2008 4:21:27 AM # Q
The thing is though, tompi, that going with Android requires Palm to hitch their hardware cart to Google's horse.

I can certainly see why Android would be a win for Google: it's more advertising revenue for them. I can see why it'd be a win for us users: Google offers a wide variety of excellent services they can integrate into an OS, and they certainly understand the "less is more" software philosophy that's so important to handheld design. But what I can't see is how it would be a win for Palm. They would once again lose exclusive control of their software platform, which is what got them into the horrible mess that they're only just beginning to claw their way out of now. And other, bigger manufacturers who choose to use Android have the resources to put out devices with better hardware for less money. So to add any value at all to an Android phone, Palm would have to roll their own exclusive version of it, which defeats the entire purpose.

Palm's future depends on them having their own exclusive OS. They might be able to get by, by licensing other companies' - for awhile. But they're not going to get ahead. Especially not by going with a company whose products are perpetually in beta - cool as they are.

IMO.

RE: Wait a minute...
tompi @ 2/7/2008 1:21:20 PM # Q
The thing is though, tompi, that going with Android requires Palm to hitch their hardware cart to Google's horse.

Android runs a standard, open source Linux kernel. Any work Palm invests in making Android run on Palm hardware is work they need to do anyway, since they're planning on releasing a Linux-based system as well. Palm doesn't lose anything by putting Android on Palm hardware but they gain sales, credibility, and market share.

But what I can't see is how it would be a win for Palm. They would once again lose exclusive control of their software platform, which is what got them into the horrible mess that they're only just beginning to claw their way out of now.

No, that's not what got them into the "horrible mess". By the time they sold Palm OS, they were already in a horrible mess because they had missed the boat multiple times. Palm should have moved to a Linux kernel when moving from 68k to ARM (I said so back then); by the time Palm OS 5 was shipping, they were already on a path to a steady decline.

Palm's future depends on them having their own exclusive OS.

They tried that with Cobalt and they failed. What makes you think a proprietary platform is going to work any better the second time around, now that there is even more competition? What killer feature is Palm going to offer that will make users buy a new Palm instead of an iPhone, an N95, or an Android phone?

Android has buzz, it has the online services, and the guys behind it have a great track record. At this point, Palm's best bet is to jump on the bandwagon.


RE: Wait a minute...
freakout @ 2/7/2008 7:56:49 PM # Q
They tried that with Cobalt and they failed.

Different circumstances. From what I understand, with Cobalt PalmSource tried to do everything in-house. The drivers, the development tools, the kitchen sink. This time around they're on a Linux kernel, they're (probably) using standardised tools etc and more importantly it's all under the one roof again with no stupid corporate shell games being played. (Well, so far as we know.)

What makes you think a proprietary platform is going to work any better the second time around, now that there is even more competition? What killer feature is Palm going to offer that will make users buy a new Palm instead of an iPhone, an N95, or an Android phone?

I recommend Beersie's excellent "Open Secrets" article from '06: http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8551/palms-open-secrets-exposed/. We know Palm have been working on server-side applications for quite some time. We know that they have the capability to develop a workable Linux OS with features that no one else is bothering with (instant-on and phone integration) as demonstrated by the Foleo (stillborn as it was).

I'd like to turn the question around: what has you so convinced that Palm will be able to stand out from the crowd by getting right in the middle of it? Apple has shown the way: tight integration with software, hardware and services (i.e. iTunes) leads to happier customers and lets them add or remove features at will. No middlemen. Google have demonstrated they'll whore out their services to people regardless of whether or not they're running Android. For instance, Google Maps is available on just about anything nowadays.

Android has buzz, it has the online services, and the guys behind it have a great track record.

Google maps in Beta. Gmail in Beta. Google News in Beta. The list goes on and on and on and on. Already Android has seen delays in getting out the SDK, and all the reports and reviews I've read have been very, very mixed. I think we'll have to agree to disagree here....

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Wait a minute...
tompi @ 2/7/2008 10:13:22 PM # Q
Google maps in Beta. Gmail in Beta. Google News in Beta. The list goes on and on and on and on.

Google Maps has been out of beta since 2005, and Google News has been out of beta since January 2006. And even Google's beta releases are generally rock solid.

Already Android has seen delays in getting out the SDK

Android was released when it was supposed to.

I'd like to turn the question around: what has you so convinced that [Android] will be able to stand out from the crowd by getting right in the middle of it?

I don't know whether Android will succeed, but I think its chances are a lot better than Nova's. And it's something Palm can ship right now and actually have some measure of control over.

and all the reports and reviews I've read have been very, very mixed.

Uh huh. You probably read that in the same place you read that Google Maps is still in beta, right? I looked at it, and I think it's a good system, they people who developed it have a good track record, and several manufacturers are convinced.

But, while you're great on pooh-poohing Android, you're avoiding the real question: what convincing reason do I have as a developer or user to buy a Palm OS Nova over an Apple, Nokia, or Android phone? Nova needs to stand out from all of those, and I don't see how.

RE: Wait a minute...
freakout @ 2/8/2008 12:24:19 AM # Q
Uh huh. You probably read that in the same place you read that Google Maps is still in beta, right?

No. I got that from Google's own logo at the top of the page that proclaims "Google Maps Beta". You're right that Google News is no longer in it though.

But, while you're great on pooh-poohing Android, you're avoiding the real question: what convincing reason do I have as a developer or user to buy a Palm OS Nova over an Apple, Nokia, or Android phone? Nova needs to stand out from all of those, and I don't see how.

Of course you don't. It hasn't even been released yet. We haven't seen anything apart from a few nebulous comments from Palm employees. Palm, on the other hand, are ideally positioned to see how their own product is going and maybe they think they're on to something.

If it made business sense to go with Android, don't you think they would have done it?

And I'm not "pooh-poohing" Android. Like I said, I can see why it works for Google. I can see why it works for people. But it is not an obvious fit for Palm - especially not when they've been working on their own OS for a lot longer than Android has been known about. Why not wait until they show us Nova before you write it off?

RE: Wait a minute...
twrock @ 2/8/2008 3:51:55 AM # Q
And it's something Palm can ship right now....

Really?! Is Android actually on shipping units right now? Please give us some links. I thought hardware running Android was still a ways off (later in 2008): http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/communications/0,39044192,62034201,00.htm

[freakout] Already Android has seen delays in getting out the SDK
[tompi] Android was released when it was supposed to.

The SDK is still in beta:
http://technorati.com/posts/ycoTHIaTUEbIKN9KWwGtNbFo8p608KdfSx1x0l28BrM%3D


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Wait a minute...
tompi @ 2/8/2008 10:26:00 AM # Q
No. I got that from Google's own logo at the top of the page that proclaims "Google Maps Beta".

The logo at maps.google.com does not say "beta". Wikipedia has the history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps

But it is not an obvious fit for Palm - especially not when they've been working on their own OS for a lot longer than Android has been known about. Why not wait until they show us Nova before you write it off?

There are three actions Palm can take right now: (1) keep working on Nova and don't ship Android, (2) keep working on Nova and ship Android ASAP, (3) or ship Android and abandon Nova.

You're saying they should take action (1), but if I'm right, they are dead.

I'm saying that even if they think that Nova is going to be great, they should take action (2): it means hedging their bets, and any work they need to do on Android is work they need to do for Nova anyway. So, they don't lose anything compared to (1).

And I care (somewhat) simply because I think it would be nice to have another hardware manufacturer in the market and because if Nova fails, Palm will just turn into a Windows-only shop.

RE: Wait a minute...
tompi @ 2/8/2008 10:43:19 AM # Q
I thought hardware running Android was still a ways off

Of course. But that's because it takes several months for manufacturers to develop the hardware, get approval, give feedback to the software developers, and do the system integration and testing.

The point is that if Palm wanted to be among the first to ship an Android device, they have to decide now because Android seems to be at the stage where the manufacturers work on creating the devices for it.

The SDK is still in beta:

So what? Probably the entire OS will be in beta until a final gold release just weeks before actual phones ship. That's the way OS shipments work.


RE: Wait a minute...
twrock @ 2/8/2008 11:28:22 AM # Q
So then why were you telling freakout he was wrong about those things when he wasn't?


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Wait a minute...
tompi @ 2/8/2008 5:08:05 PM # Q
So then why were you telling freakout he was wrong about those things when he wasn't?

Huh? Freakout was wrong about those things. So were you. But there's no point in trying to convince you. I hope some people at Palm will have second thoughts. It's up to them.

RE: Wait a minute...
freakout @ 2/8/2008 7:29:07 PM # Q
The logo at maps.google.com does not say "beta".

It does for me. But now that I think about it, I'm looking at "Google Maps Australia", which is probably where the difference is. Here's a screenshot for you: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-6/1039114/gm.JPG

But anyways, I should have double-checked that. Apologies. (I'm still right about Gmail though! 1 out of 3 ain't... okay, it's bad. ;) )

There are three actions Palm can take right now: (1) keep working on Nova and don't ship Android, (2) keep working on Nova and ship Android ASAP, (3) or ship Android and abandon Nova.

You're saying they should take action (1), but if I'm right, they are dead.

I'm saying that even if they think that Nova is going to be great, they should take action (2): it means hedging their bets, and any work they need to do on Android is work they need to do for Nova anyway. So, they don't lose anything compared to (1).

Are you kidding? It would be a massive risk. It would split the focus and talent of Palm's engineers just like the Foleo did. Why did Foleo die? Because Palm don't have the resources to support and develop two different operating systems (and management was stupid enough to let them try). You cannot seriously suggest that they should start working on devices with another company's operating system that isn't even finished yet, with an SDK that is still getting regular updates to include features that should have been in there at the start!!

It's nuts! It's crazy talk! etc etc

I again point to the example of Apple. They have their own tightly integrated software-hardware-services combination and it has become a license to print money, not to mention gives their fans regular moments of ecstatic gadget pleasure. That is the experience that Palm should be trying to replicate. Heck, it's the experience that they themselves used to have.

Two questions: If Palm were to adopt Android, what would make you buy their version over anybody else's? And what makes you think Google won't be keen to bring their services to Nova anyway?

lastly, just 'cause i can't help myself...

Huh? Freakout was wrong about those things.

I've lost track of what these "things" are. I was wrong about Google News and Google Maps. But not my underlying point (which I'm retroactively inserting now - oh how I love the Internet! :P) that Google is like a hyperactive child right now, trying to do everything. The only service of theirs that has really hit pay dirt has been search. The rest is still a work-in-progress for them. It's an exciting time to be a user, but not necessarily a customer. Google are looking more and more like they will be the next Microsoft.

Oh, it's great right now, until suddenly one day you wake up and you're doing 100% of your online activities via Google in some way. Heck, that's nearly the case for me today. And it's fine while they're benevolent. But in every fun start-up lurks an evil, hard-ass monopolist prick. They just need enough success to encourage them to rear their heads. With Google the potential for damage is even greater than it was letting MS get to where they are today. They control information. The temptation to change the flow of that information or even its content to their own benefit will eventually be too great, I suspect. Maybe that's a few CEOs and boards down the line. But it'll happen. I'll bet you a case of beer. It's run by humans, after all.

I wouldn't be getting into bed with Google if I was Palm.

As for being wrong about mixed reviews of the SDK: shit, just Google it, man, and you'll turn up a bunch of different reports on it. Many people complained about the first edition and said it lacked many basic tools. Google are updating it, but that has recently been delayed. They had to push back the dates of their developer challenge because of it.

RE: Wait a minute...
twrock @ 2/8/2008 9:03:44 PM # Q
tompi, using your logic, Cobalt was a success too!


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Wait a minute...
SeldomVisitor @ 2/9/2008 7:36:00 AM # Q
-- http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080208/wr_nm/mobile_fair_android_dc_1

How many are going to be demonstrating Nova?

ALP?

RE: Wait a minute...
freakout @ 2/9/2008 8:39:04 AM # Q
^^ I imagine Palm are hoping no-one exhibits Nova except themselves. That's the idea. As for ALP... who cares? :P
RE: Wait a minute...
SeldomVisitor @ 2/9/2008 8:58:07 AM # Q
Do you think PALM will be demonstrating Nova?

RE: Wait a minute...
freakout @ 2/9/2008 10:05:37 AM # Q
No. Don't think they're not going to show us until much later in the year, as their vague "early 2009" target draws closer.

Does it matter?

RE: Wait a minute...
Ryan @ 2/9/2008 12:24:47 PM # Q
Palm has said before that if all goes to plan, 'Nova' will be announced/unveiled later this year... prob Q4.
Reply to this comment

Logo

razorpit @ 2/1/2008 1:29:45 PM # Q
Hey when did the new Wilcat logo come about? I must have missed that one when it was announced.

Palm has had more logo/name changes than Windows XP has had security patches.

RE: Logo
just_little_me @ 2/3/2008 5:13:45 PM # Q
ee-di-ot...


JLM.

RE: Logo
jeffhoward001 @ 2/4/2008 4:37:46 PM # Q
At the expense of potentially looking stupid, I have the same question...

What's with the cat-scratch-fever on the Palm logo?

Tungsten T --> Palm TX --> Foleo-mini??(like an LD-II with a small attached keyboard??)

RE: Logo
hkklife @ 2/5/2008 9:55:00 AM # Q
It's the University of Kentucky Wildcat mascot. My guess is that it's something Ryan cooked up as an inside joke. Otherwise, I have no clue why it's there.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
Reply to this comment

Web-enabled?

sremick @ 2/1/2008 2:11:56 PM # Q
This concerns me. Makes me think that a Palm running Nova might be of little use without a live internet connection.

How about something that does address books, calendar, notes, etc, has bluetooth, wifi, SDHC for expandable memory, a vibrating alarm like every phone/pager in existence, awesome SDKs and support for a desperate developer community that longs for the "good ol' days", that runs on modern hardware (high-res OLED, more RAM, more CPU, etc), and simply DOESN'T SUCK?

RE: Web-enabled?
hkklife @ 2/1/2008 2:23:56 PM # Q
Sounds lovely. Too bad it's likely to never happen. If you're talking fullsize SDHC, then you can immediately knock that one off the list. Palm's jumped on the bandwagon for microSDHC. I'd personally pay a premium for another device like the 680--fullsize SDHC with the card concealed behind a door.

And a high-res OLED screen? Hah! All Palm wants to do is sell under-spec'd QWERTY smartphones with SSS (small square screens) in various flavors of "small".

Wouldn't it be grand if Palm COULD release a traditional (read: very media-savvy) PDA/PMP-style device running Nova *FIRST* to make sure that all the kinks were ironed out before sending a Nova smartphone to try and pass the carriers' certification tests? And the sad thing is that there are probably more users willing to pay to be a beta tester of a new OS on a non-mission-critical handheld than there are those who would risk their primary mobile phone on an untested, unproved OS.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Web-enabled?
LiveFaith @ 2/1/2008 10:36:41 PM # Q
Gosh Kris,

It would be SWEET if Palm would just update the T|X to bring it into this century. What you're talking about is more like a sugar overdose in need of serious medical intervention for Palm Inc.

I no longer waste my energy believing anything Palm spokespeople say. Yet I love the platform so much that I hope against hope that competency has actually seized control over there. I feel like a football fan that still goes to the game but wears a paper sack over my head. :-/

Pat Horne

RE: Web-enabled?
freakout @ 2/2/2008 8:12:21 AM # Q
This concerns me. Makes me think that a Palm running Nova might be of little use without a live internet connection.

That's true of almost any handheld gadget nowadays. Internet access/integration is no longer optional. It's a necessity if you want to be taken seriously. Of course it will have on-board PIM apps; my guess is that what Maes is talking about here is an easy way to keep your online contact lists in sync with your offline one.

RE: Web-enabled?
PacManFoo @ 2/3/2008 2:22:03 PM # Q
Palm either needs to buy Plaxo http://www.plaxo.com or come up with something similar. With Plaxo service your contacts and calendar (Mac or PC) are automatically synced to their online service. I can have their client on more then one computer such as my work desktop and my work laptop and only have to enter info one place and they all have the same info. Would love to have a Palm Plaxo client to have everything synced up.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
Reply to this comment

It doesn't matter what they say.

JonAcheson @ 2/1/2008 4:36:59 PM # Q
Dear Palm:

It's nice to hear that your new OS will be out Real Soon Now. But the problem is, that's the same thing I've been hearing for, what, four years now?

So, it doesn't matter what you say, because none of us are buying it any more. It only matters what you actually release.

When you release something, let us know.

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

RE: It doesn't matter what they say.
LiveFaith @ 2/1/2008 10:40:35 PM # Q
Jon,

My odds meter says 95% that Palm never gets a production "Nova" device through a carrier to the retail market. 50% that they never even release a non-carrier "cuffed" device with it. I think your "produce 1st" mindset is pretty common around the community.

I hope they prove me terribly wrong still.

Pat Horne

Reply to this comment

Many words, little substance

EdH @ 2/2/2008 2:17:44 PM # Q
I think Stephane Maes spent a few minutes recently in the Palm Zen manifesto. Awful lot of meaningless buzzwords in that article, which probablyl sounds really good with some new age world music in the background.

Why in the world would they want to return to some sort of zen simplicity and elegance mantra? Sticking to that anchor is what started their decline. They just need to deliver a fantastic product and quit drinking the zen marketing kool-aid.

Let me know when a device ships.

Note to self: Bookmark this page and come back in 2012 and see how it is progressing

RE: Many words, little substance
numlock @ 2/2/2008 3:56:07 PM # Q
well said.
RE: Many words, little substance
freakout @ 2/2/2008 8:40:22 PM # Q
Why in the world would they want to return to some sort of zen simplicity and elegance mantra? Sticking to that anchor is what started their decline.

You could also argue that it's the only thing still keeping them afloat in an age where the competition is a lot sexier. People do want simplicity: it's part of the reason the iPhone is kicking every other smartphone's ass in the marketplace. Clean, pretty, simple. It's also why the HTC Touch has done so well. Put a simpler, finger-friendly interface on it and suddenly even WinMob can be a hit.

"Simple, elegant" doesn't have to mean "underpowered".

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Many words, little substance
mikecane @ 2/3/2008 5:05:54 PM # Q
>>>People do want simplicity: it's part of the reason the iPhone is kicking every other smartphone's ass in the marketplace. Clean, pretty, simple.

The guy who said the Treo was *better* than iPhone has obviously had a brain event that has made him *not* retarded any longer.

Kill him and donate his brain to Science ASAP.

RE: Many words, little substance
freakout @ 2/3/2008 5:58:01 PM # Q
I still think it is. But you'd have to be blind not to admit it's uglier. :P
RE: Many words, little substance
mikecane @ 2/3/2008 9:47:26 PM # Q
Verizon had a big upfront Super Bowl Ad for that Voyager phone (maybe it was even right after the MacBook Air ad? ... the mind is fuzzy). Ooooh, look, the screen is just like an iPhone. Yeah, right. FAIL.

RE: Many words, little substance
abosco @ 2/4/2008 1:42:56 AM # Q
I've seen the Voyager in person and played around with it. I put my brother's iPhone along with mine in a Psion-type clamshell, back-to-back. It was about the same thickness.

And I wonder where they got the idea for a touchscreen with minimal buttons on the front. Give that guy a raise!

Verizon is shit.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Many words, little substance
freakout @ 2/4/2008 2:58:32 AM # Q
My boss got an LG Prada recently. It's such a shameless iPhone cash-in I was actually taken aback a bit. Apple should sue.

And on the subject, I finally some actual, proper sit-down time with an iPhone (as opposed to just a fondle) at the pub last week. Friend of a friend had a jailbroken import. (Turned out he'd even read my editorial. Told me I was an ass. We disagreed.) The auto-correct was nearly magical in its predictions - much more so than on WinMob. In completely unscientific testing, I raced him on my 680 to type "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs", and then we swapped. Treo won in both instances - 10 seconds to 12 the first time and 13 to 17 the second. (Although most of the difference there can probably chalked up to my hesitating at the end of each work to double-check the autocorrect)

In the end I still stand by the editorial... but if a nice, shiny Nova phone doesn't pan out by early next year I'm jumping ship regardless. (Provided the SDK is all that people are hoping for. And they release a damn 3G model already.)

RE: Many words, little substance
SeldomVisitor @ 2/4/2008 9:01:50 AM # Q
> ...In the end I still stand by the editorial...but if a nice,
> shiny Nova phone doesn't pan out by early next year I'm jumping
> ship regardless.

Uh...one phrase does not support the other.

However...Gack!...none-the-less.

Because if YOU'RE jumping ship, imagine the less-dedicated Fanboys.

RE: Many words, little substance
mikecane @ 2/4/2008 10:04:11 AM # Q
>>>It's such a shameless iPhone cash-in I was actually taken aback a bit.

Duuuuh. As people pointed out at the time of iPhone launch, the Prada was actually shown *first*. But it was Prada, for crying out loud, so who paid attention?

RE: Many words, little substance
abosco @ 2/4/2008 11:55:26 AM # Q
My boss got an LG Prada recently. It's such a shameless iPhone cash-in I was actually taken aback a bit. Apple should sue.

The Prada was introduced a little before the iPhone was announced. Given a rough time of development timeframe, I would say that the designs are coincidental, even though they are incredibly similar. Kudos to LG for introducing an appealing design, but they were simply swallowed by the Apple marketing machine.

The auto-correct was nearly magical in its predictions - much more so than on WinMob.

Ziing! There was my entire argument in your editorial. You need some proper time with the device to comment on the typing and keyboard characteristics before you can chalk up an advantage to the Treo. Is the Treo better for data entry? Sure. Is it a wide margin? No way. But the iPhone can make use of that extra screen space, which is a HUGE advantage.

I'm not a very heavy texter; you could consider me a moderate text user, which is about 2-5 times a day (perfect for the cheapest data plan, which is $20 for unlimited data and 200 text/month). As you use the iPhone more for data entry, you will learn to put faith in the auto-correct. The more you micromanage it, the less it works. Just let your fingers fly and then check it before you send.

I just tried, "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog." on my iPhone. Nine seconds using thumbs, and it auto-corrected two words. If I pull out my NX80v, I could probably cut it down to seven seconds. I could fly on that thing since I used to type up whole essays on D2G.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Many words, little substance
freakout @ 2/4/2008 5:13:32 PM # Q
SV:
Uh...one phrase does not support the other.

Sure it does. Perfectly possible to have one opinion in 2007 and another in 2009. Especially about technology. The main issue for me is the lack of 3G GSM on Palm OS. I'm extraordinarily sick of GPRS and its slower-than-dial-up speeds. If Palm can't deliver 3G GSM by early 2009 I'm off. Not to say I won't be back...

bosco:
I just tried, "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog." on my iPhone. Nine seconds using thumbs, and it auto-corrected two words.

You can probably chalk up the slower speeds (and extra mistakes) on both my tests to large amounts of beer. Maybe it's also why I came away with a more positive opinion. Beer goggles. ;)

RE: Many words, little substance
Eternal_Visitor @ 8/31/2008 12:48:03 AM # Q
"Why in the world would they want to return to some sort of zen simplicity and elegance mantra? Sticking to that anchor is what started their decline. They just need to deliver a fantastic product and quit drinking the zen marketing kool-aid."

uh, gonna have to point out that "simplicity and elegance" are the only 2 reasons apple has any form of success with the iPod/iPhone. all the marketing in the world can't save a clunky and poorly thought out product. (something you'll never catch apple releasing)

that's how I see things. you think I'm wrong? well, that's the way you see things.

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OS

ewl @ 2/3/2008 9:33:52 AM # Q
I'm not convinced that palm's problem is the OS from the consumer point of view. They could care less that the OS is 5 years old. The major deficit of the palm os is lack of stability (my T X had to be hard reset several times this year and my versamail got corrupted), and lack of multitasking. Making Palm OS a pretty OS is possible with existing launchers.
I had to decide whether to buy a treo 755 vs a blackberry 8830 on verizon. I eventually chose the latter since I didn't have confidence in the palm os to be stable enough to be my primary phone. People I knew who used the treo had problems with stability both with Garnet as well as windows mobile version. The important medical apps I need are now on the BB and I use them regularly.
That being said, the BB is not perfect. The interface is not very friendly esp some options buried in the menu. The trackball system is less convenient than touch screen. When you want to recording a note, it's aggravating to type it in instead of jotting it down on the palm. The BB system is stable even though to reset it, you have to pull out the battery. (palm critics based palm for the same on the latest palms) The internet browser on the BB is just as bad as blazer although I'm playing around with opera mini. But the BB is thinner and sleeker than the treo 755 and the email system is more robust. I actually am having trouble with email and my work's BB enterprise server but it's probably a problem with my IT implementation. Versamail on the palm is a kludge, poorly supported, and the fact that the latest version of versamail wasn't working with my work's outlook server was the final straw.
Palm needs a more stable os, better syncing system, a better enterprise email implementation , multitasking capability, and wifi in a contemporary hardware package before it burns through its cash supply.


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Stephanie, dear

mikecane @ 2/3/2008 5:10:08 PM # Q
Can you NOT end a sentence with the phrase "going forward?"

You sound frikkin retarded.

I hope to hell Palm is paying attention to the issue of data portability: http://dataportability.org/

This is a real issue.

By 2009, Apple will have iPhone II or even III out. And the iPod Air will be all over the place:

http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/is-apples-tablet-the-ipod-air/

Like I'm going to switch from those to *Palm*?

Going forward, ahem, I don't think so.

RE: Stephanie, dear
just_little_me @ 2/3/2008 5:21:31 PM # Q
It's "Stephane", not "Stephanie"... and she's a HE, and I'm sure he doesn't like being called "dear"

Or maybe you knew all that Mike and have something to tell us...? Push a little harder on the closet door my friend... ;-)


JLM.

RE: Stephanie, dear
mikecane @ 2/3/2008 9:45:35 PM # Q
This is what happens when I do not wear my reading glasses.

Still, it's PALM. Is there ANYTHING that should be read CLOSELY?

Thanks for the correction, honeybunch.

ROTF...

Reply to this comment

Speaking of ALPOS

BaalthazaaR @ 2/6/2008 5:25:05 PM # Q
Has there been any news of ALPOS? Wasn't there an SDK or something?
RE: Speaking of ALPOS
mikecane @ 2/7/2008 10:23:04 AM # Q
Last word was a memo or somesuch thing to "study' the OS by DoCoMo, I think.

Odd that no other phone makers have announced anything.

Hey, maybe Palm can buy it back for a lot less than ACCESS paid for it!

RE: Speaking of ALPOS
BaalthazaaR @ 2/7/2008 11:01:21 AM # Q
They might... But Access would have to dump ALPOS in favor of Cobalt-II first. Only then would Palm be interested.
RE: Speaking of ALPOS
Ryan @ 2/7/2008 12:27:04 PM # Q
This was the last bit of news on ALPOS:

http://www.mobilelinuxinfo.com/484/access-signs-deal-to-develop-platform-out-of-the-alp-platform/

They have a booth at the Mobile World Conference next week, so I'd imagine there will be some announcement and possible demo's of stuff shown there next week.

RE: Speaking of ALPOS
Poopie @ 2/11/2008 3:36:59 PM # Q
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If job ads are any clue...

SeldomVisitor @ 3/4/2008 10:39:55 AM # Q
...then the job ads at Palm's web site show a strong leaning toward Java and web services.

And also show that leaning as being VERY recent.

December 2009 - it's visible on the horizon.

This is gonna be interesting...

RE: If job ads are any clue...
mikecane @ 3/4/2008 12:52:23 PM # Q
>>>December 2009 - it's visible on the horizon.

As if the world is going to stand still?

Palm is dead. It's over.

See this: http://tinyurl.com/2rk6gg

And I have to say that Sony MYLO-2 is intriguing.

RE: If job ads are any clue...
SeldomVisitor @ 3/4/2008 1:12:17 PM # Q
Apologies - I (of course) MEANT "December 2008".

Though it was funny and probably prophetic to read "December 2009"...giggle.


RE: If job ads are any clue...
SeldomVisitor @ 3/4/2008 1:15:39 PM # Q
> ...See this: http://tinyurl.com/2rk6gg ...

Be sure to visit Engadget and Engadget Mobile regularly at this time due to that CeBit show (Palm's not there, I don't believe but the competition for sure is).

Anywho, Engadget has a mini-mention of Everex's new laptop:

-- http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/04/everexs-400-va1500v-laptop-now-available/

Things are for SURE getting interesting.

RE: If job ads are any clue...
mikecane @ 3/4/2008 3:11:36 PM # Q
>>>Apologies - I (of course) MEANT "December 2008".

No, I didn't know you meant 2008. Given the way Palm diddles, 2009 sounded more plausible!

You really REALLY think we're gonna see a new PalmOS by the end of this year?

I have some nice plots on the moon to sell you. (No, not our Moon. You think this is some crooked scheme? I mean the premier moon of Jupiter. That's REAL real estate. Yeah, that's the ticket...)

RE: If job ads are any clue...
SeldomVisitor @ 3/4/2008 3:32:59 PM # Q
> ...You really REALLY think we're gonna see a new PalmOS
> by the end of this year?...

Absolutely, even if it means a "release" equivalent to that end-of-year "release" of Cobalt.

In actual fact, of course, given all the other things I've noted here like those VERY recent job postings, I'd say the "release" WILL be the equivalent of that end-of-year "release" of Cobalt.

We'll just have to see, though!

RE: If job ads are any clue...
SeldomVisitor @ 3/4/2008 3:39:50 PM # Q
Oopsie!

One MINOR clarification!

You asked "...a new PalmOS..." and I sillily (?) replied as if THAT was what I think they're gonna release.

They're gonna release SOMETHING but, IMHO, it'll NOT be compatible with anything "PalmOS" so has absolutely no grounds for being labeled as such.

[btw, I think ANY possible "backward compatibility" will come via a third-party product only]

RE: If job ads are any clue...
mikecane @ 3/4/2008 9:37:43 PM # Q
>>>[btw, I think ANY possible "backward compatibility" will come via a third-party product only]

Oh, so ACCESS will have a minor future after all, selling a Garnet emulator to PalmOS Mark 2 users?

Hey, lefty, break out that champagne! Good times ahead (well, just not for you -- what, you think they can afford your big bucks after selling just 200 Garnet emulators?).

Reply to this comment

Palm's Nova is SO being passed by

SeldomVisitor @ 10/29/2008 3:19:29 PM # Q
Google, HTC, Asus, Motorola, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

All going Android.

Poor Palm.

RE: Palm's Nova is SO being passed by
freakout @ 10/29/2008 3:38:30 PM # Q
The whole world could go Android and it would mean extremely little to Palm, who are obviously intent on having their own unique platform. More power to them.
RE: Palm's Nova is SO being passed by
AdamaDBrown @ 10/29/2008 6:03:52 PM # Q
Nova's relevance isn't in terms of who might adopt it. I think it's clear Palm wants to keep it to themselves-at least, they've made no moves to indicate that they want to take it wide or license it to others, and I'm not sure who'd be interested if they wanted to.

The thing is, the platform doesn't exist in a vacuum. If all the developers jump on board with Android, then there's going to be a lot less interest in development for Nova would be a lot less. All the oxygen would be sucked out of the room.

This is why Palm needs to get Nova devices out there ASAP. The iPhone OS is available right now, likewise Android, Windows Mobile, and S60. To get a piece of the developer pie, they've got to have something really interesting ASAP.

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