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Comments on: Palm Pre vs iPhone: Pre Emerges Bloodied but Victorious

Palm Pre vs iPhoneGadget blog Gizmodo has wasted no time in getting on with the inevitable smartphone comparison contests, recently running a piece comparing Palm's precocious new Pre against its Apple-born arch-nemesis. The Pre does amazingly well, with the Pre/iPhone scoreboard finishing up at 10-5. While some of their calls are a bit iffy - especially iPhone winning the "keyboard" category - it's worth a read and reinforces just what a giant leap Palm's New-ness has turned out to be for the company. Oh, and the G1 turned up as well, for all the good it did it.

Hit the jump for Gizmodo's category list, along with PIC's own commentary.

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HTC's latest claim

kilf @ 1/12/2009 11:56:29 AM # Q
Interestingly, HTC are already saying that their next device will be a "Palm Pre" beater, rather than the now-traditional "iPhone beater" that phone -makers normally bullshit about.


See here:
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/01/12/htc-our-new-phone-wi.html

RE: HTC's latest claim
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 11:58:43 AM # Q
RE: HTC's latest claim
Piero @ 1/12/2009 12:31:59 PM # Q
Maybe i'll get a Nokia Internet Tablet which has Garnet VM..... and some other phone. Anyone has hands on experience with the tablet?

RE: HTC's latest claim
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 12:59:34 PM # Q
Oh, Christ. Stay away from Nokia's POS. Besides, they are allegedly working on yet *another* iteration of Maemo - which will probably *again* necessitate a hardware change.

You'd be better off with a low-end iPod Touch. Even a used/refurb one, if you don't want to spend much $.

RE: HTC's latest claim
oronzous @ 1/12/2009 2:45:10 PM # Q
i have one of those Nokia IT. the Garnet virtual machine is frustrating at best.

And the device itself is not that useful or entertaining.

RE: HTC's latest claim
Piero @ 1/12/2009 5:54:05 PM # Q
Ok, so..... is there any gadget/phone with a decent garnet emu out there?

RE: HTC's latest claim
joad @ 1/12/2009 10:00:10 PM # Q
Styletap on a WinceMob device?

Reply to this comment

This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...

AdamaDBrown @ 1/12/2009 12:00:38 PM # Q
... chief of which is the ecosystem around it. It's not just the app store, but it's the app store, iTunes, the massive availability of accessories, peripherals, etcetera.

There's also the fact that the iPhone has Apple behind it, and the massive marketing and awareness machine that that represents. There were plenty of people-me included-who pointed out when the iPhone came out that it didn't really do anything that couldn't be done by a lot of other smartphones. That didn't stop the iPhone from beating every other single model of smartphone.

Honestly I think that comparisons are incredibly premature, as we know right now only what Palm wants us to know about the UI-nothing about how it really feels or performs under normal use-and we don't know the Pre's price.

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 12:12:18 PM # Q
Apple now enjoys the accessorizing boom Palm used to have. In fact, wasn't the Pilot and its successors the ones who really pioneered that?

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
hkklife @ 1/12/2009 12:59:47 PM # Q
Rubinstein said specifically later in the keynote (paraphrasing here)
"Anyone who knows me knows I'm a huge proponent of ecosystems"

I got excited and was expecting some huge app store/content partner announcement/a Fooleo successor running WebOS

Instead he showed us the TOuchstone. A great little gadget, sure, but nothing that defines an "ecosystem" in the Apple sense of the word.

And while RIM's ecossytem is less glamorous and less consumer-oriented, they've built up enough of a user/developer base and enough critical mass & presence in the market that they can sort of accomplish stuff via brute force (look at the sales numbers, despite the rumored 30+% return rate of the Storm).

Long-time POS users may remember those cool little booklets/brochures that Palm used to include in the box with their new handhelds. This was back in the Pilot/PalmPilot/III/V days. I believe they stopped shipping them after the last OS4 models arrived. It was a little book full of not only Palm's own branded accessories, but 3rd party accessories like the Kodak PalmPix, "small" software solutions like PrintBoy alongside "big" killer apps like DocsToGo . Crude as it was, that little catalog nicely summarized the fledgling Palm OS ecosystem of the mid-late 90s for all new handheld buyers. Just delivering those apps to the customers' devices was the problem back then. That's why with the magic of wireless, it's crucial Palm have a fantastic OOBE (out of box experience) for the user as far as the app/media store tightly integrted with the device. If it's buried amidst a sea of Sprint bloatware/trialware (Nuance voice control, NFL mobile, Sprint TV etc, Sprint app store etc)

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2009 1:18:43 PM # Q
> ...I got excited and was expecting some huge app store/content partner
> announcement/a Fooleo successor running WebOS
>
> Instead he showed us the TOuchstone. A great little gadget, sure, but
> nothing that defines an "ecosystem" in the Apple sense of the word...

Gack.

- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9672/#148133

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
hkklife @ 1/12/2009 1:31:02 PM # Q
And your point is?

If the Pre is a lot seller, and the Touchstone isn't too terribly priced, then I do see a relatively high attach rate for Palm. Then the inevitable cheap knock-off type chargers from the usual Chinese peripheral firms like Brando etc will follow. Same as the old days of the Palm Hotsync cradles.

The Touchstone IS a really nifty little device and I'd love to have one on my desk. In fact, I'd like to see Palm make all of their future devices Touchstone-capable with the proper back cover installed. It'd make a nice way of unifying the line and not having to worry about FF diffferences or the locator of the microUSB port etc.

But one innovative accessory (Touchstone), a leather case, and a few chargers and a headset or two does not make a thriving ecosystem. I was surprising that Rubinstein, known by many as the "podfather" would use the "ecosystem" term to introduce an accessory instead of some kind of app/media store.

Another cool concept woulbe someone like Altec Lansing doing a music dock that was like the Touchstone but had built-in speakers that played via BT A2DP.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
Gekko @ 1/12/2009 1:40:44 PM # Q

predictions -

Pre - $299 with 2 year contract and data plan
Touchstone - $69.99
Inductive Back - $29.99

When Peter Kafka asked if the Palm Pre's price would be less than the iPhone's $US199, Palm CEO Ed Colligan replied, "Why would we do that when we have a significantly better product?"


RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2009 1:50:01 PM # Q
> And your point is? ...

My point pointedly was, as much as I enjoy your writing and read everything I see from you, you thoroughly got caught up in The Gush along with scads of other Me-Too Media-droids and are only now coming off the high.

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 3:45:49 PM # Q
>>>CEO Ed Colligan replied, "Why would we do that when we have a significantly better product?"

Yep, and therefore instantly placed himself in the running for Dumbass of the Year 2009!

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
Gekko @ 1/12/2009 4:02:31 PM # Q

the list grows!

most infamous quotes in palm history

1. "yes this really is a gold threaded suit." - carl yankowski
2. "we're prepared for whichever way the market goes." - carl yankowski
3. "look at the shadow on the second hand, cobalt really is amazing." - david nagel
4. "PC guys are not going to just walk in." - ed colligan
5. "no, foleo can't do youtube but i wish it has a faster processor." - jeff hawkins
6. "why would we want to charge the same or less for a better product?" - ed colligan
7. "i'm a huge proponent of ecosystems. check out this new charger." - ruby

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 4:12:45 PM # Q
Eh. #7 is a canard. I cut the guy some slack. He whipped Palm back into life. Or at least a semblance thereof.

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
pmjoe @ 1/12/2009 5:00:25 PM # Q
I have to agree. This article basically picks out the Pre's strengths and then complains that the iPhone doesn't have them. Of the top of my head, iTunes integration and a mature SDK come to mind. I still have security concerns about a "web-based" OS that has access to significant lower level features.

It may turn out that the Pre's "multitasking" turns into a detriment. Leave a web page with some crappy JavaScript open on some off-screen card and it may drag performance to a crawl.

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 5:15:08 PM # Q
>>>Leave a web page with some crappy JavaScript open on some off-screen card and it may drag performance to a crawl.

That would be just about 99.9% of websites from newspapers!

OK, I exaggerate. 99.8%.

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
joad @ 1/12/2009 10:03:08 PM # Q
>>Apple now enjoys the accessorizing boom Palm used to have. In fact, wasn't the Pilot and its successors the ones who really pioneered that?

Seems to me that it was the Apple Newton before the Palm... and the Sharp portables in the late '80s (yeah, had one of them, too...)

RE: This leaves out the iPhone's biggest strengths...
hkklife @ 1/13/2009 8:43:02 AM # Q
SV:

Yesterday you posted:
"
> And your point is? ...

My point pointedly was, as much as I enjoy your writing and read everything I see from you, you thoroughly got caught up in The Gush along with scads of other Me-Too Media-droids and are only now coming off the high."


My period of "gushing" ended shortly sometime between the end of the keynote and the moment I verified the first specs of the device later that day. The removal of the microSDHC slot was a gigantic blow to me, finding out the feeble battery capacity was the second blow, and learning about some of the basic shortcomings in Pre's capabilities (voice dialing, video capture, ability to create custom contact field names) + the lack of an SDK pretty much finished me off.

Don't confuse my incredible enthuasiasm for the Touchstone (quite possibly the coolest & most well-done mobile device accessory I've ever seen) with overwhelming enthusiasm for the Pre. As I was on Thursday, I remain highly impressed with what Palm has done with their backs to the wall but will continue to question many of their decisions and have in no way made up my mind to purchase a Pre.

In fact, last Thursday you may recall this post from me:

"
So far from CES I am announcing the following awards from what I have seen so far:
Best of Show (tie): HP DV2 premium netbook & Palm's WebOS

Biggest disappointments of show: Sony P-Series netbook & Palm Pre"

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9671/#148154

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

Reply to this comment

I think a point was forgotten...

SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2009 12:09:57 PM # Q
iPhone: Exists

Pre: Vaporware


RE: I think a point was forgotten...listen to Mossberg a-GAIN
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2009 12:11:29 PM # Q
RE: I think a point was forgotten...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 12:18:36 PM # Q
Pre isn't vaporware. That's like saying the frikkin iPhone was vaporware during the near *seven-month gap* from its early-January unveiling until its late-June availability.

(And there were *many* pundits who wondered if the iPhone would really go on sale in June back then too!)

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 12:20:45 PM # Q
Sprint, of course, is just wetting itself, hoping the Pre will generate first-day lines like this:
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/southern-nyc-iday-2007-in-56-photos/

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2009 12:45:34 PM # Q
The Pre is vaporware.

What is going to be delivered and what was demoed are going to be DIFFERENT, imho.

I would BET the delivered Pre will be MUCH thicker to accommodate a much bigger battery (in fact, I believe the paradigm for using the Pre will to ALWAYS keep it on a charging dock if not "on the move"!).

I would bet the delivered Pre will have a more robust movable part.

I have to wonder if they'll get rid of that lip around the keyboard that at least one person has complained about already.

We'll see how fast the delivered Pre is hacked and virus-infected. If Apple says they didn't want to do certain things for "security" reasons, it'll be very interesting to watch as the Bad Guys show Palm exactly what Apple was talking about!

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 12:54:56 PM # Q
>>>What is going to be delivered and what was demoed are going to be DIFFERENT, imho.

>>>I would BET the delivered Pre will be MUCH thicker to accommodate a much bigger battery (in fact, I believe the paradigm for using the Pre will to ALWAYS keep it on a charging dock if not "on the move"!).

If the only difference is the thickness, eh. Fatter battery is usually good anyway.

I can't speak about that lip thing. Colligan still hasn't arrived to do his in-person demo for me. Ahem.

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
freakout @ 1/12/2009 12:56:15 PM # Q
We'll see how fast the delivered Pre is hacked and virus-infected. If Apple says they didn't want to do certain things for "security" reasons, it'll be very interesting to watch as the Bad Guys show Palm exactly what Apple was talking about!

Oh please. If mobiles were going to become virus havens thanks to open architectures WinMob and PalmOS would have been targeted long, long ago. Apple simply used "security" as an excuse for the things they didn't want to deliver. Remember when Steve said "no third-party apps, we don't want them bringing down AT&T's network?" Far as I know, it's withstood the onslaught just fine so far...

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
hkklife @ 1/12/2009 12:56:30 PM # Q
Vaporware? Don't be so negative! I TOUCHED the damn thing! And all of the demo units were clearly live devices and were connected via EVDO (NOT wi-fi) and were not tethered to a mysterious black box under the desk or anything.

Now, it is true that we did not see anyone actually placing or receiving calls on the devices so it's possible the telephony stack isn't finished. And the Phone app clearly appeared to be more of a work in progress than the launcher & PIM/Media apps.

Come on, SV. I may have some doubts about the long-term sustainability of the platform and some of the dubious hardware choices, but the Pre is clearly a 90%+ finished device, like it or not.

Between lead times requires for manufacturing, then FCC + Sprint certification, it'll HAVE to be essentially identical to what we saw. Yeah, they COULD decide at the 11th hour to ship 'em with a bigger battery and a "hump" battery cover but that's highly unlikely.

What is a far, far more likely scenario is that Palm intentionally shipped it with an undersized battery. But they've got a Palm-branded 1500mAh battery that's the same physical dimensions (Seidio-style) in the pipeline and will try to sell lots of them from palm.com. Or maybe offer a package bundle of the Touchstone + replacement battery door + high capacity battery for the "power users".

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
DrewT3 @ 1/12/2009 2:18:12 PM # Q
Apple often makes up funny reasons for their business decisions.
No blu-ray drives in Macs? It is because it would be "a world of hurt".
Charging for upgrades to iPod Touch software? It is because "tax laws require it".
Using expensive PowerPC CPUs? "It is much faster than Intel".
Swithcing to Intel CPUs? "it is much faster than PPC".


RE: I think a point was forgotten...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 3:50:28 PM # Q
>>>No blu-ray drives in Macs? It is because it would be "a world of hurt".

When I read posts from owners of Blu-Ray players saying how long it takes for them to boot up and how sluggish they are in everyday use, I tend to believe Jobs.

>>>Charging for upgrades to iPod Touch software? It is because "tax laws require it".

Others have confirmed that, but I'm no tax expert. No do I intend to play one on the Net.

What was your reaction to the original Mac OS vs DOS? Or hadn't you learned to speak yet?

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
DrewT3 @ 1/12/2009 5:16:55 PM # Q
Geez, Mike, you don't really believe the tax story, do you? Apple should hire the same accountants every other CE company uses, since they can release upgrades for free.

To your question, I didn't compare the original MacOS to DOS. I compared it to AmigaOS. In that comparison, Macs came out as underpowered, boring machines for dullards who hoped to be hip by association.

A Mac was my primary computer between the death of the Amiga and the release of Windows 95. Apple had a compelling product for those few years, but Windows 95 was far better than Apple's OS6 (remember having to adjust the memory partions for each running program? Having to reboot with all extensions off to burn a CD?).


RE: I think a point was forgotten...
mikecane @ 1/12/2009 5:48:13 PM # Q
Touche, Drew. But, come on, Amiga had a fugly UI in the beginning.

Weak comeback, I know.

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2009 5:48:33 PM # Q
I still have two Amigas, including my original "signed" Amiga 1000...it served as my "PC" for years (after I got tired of my CP/M machine) until I finally bought the bullet and bought a PC PC.

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
hkklife @ 1/12/2009 6:43:59 PM # Q
SV;

Wow! I always liked the rugged, squared-off aesthetics & the "signed" collectability of the1000. 'Twas just a paint to have to boot it from a Kickstart floppy. Did you ever upgrade the ROM and/or any of its components?

Just out of curiosity, what is your "other" Amiga in addition to the 1000?

I just recently unloaded my A500 but still kept some of the software & accessories for nostalgia purposes.

I also still have my C128D and a 1541 floppy drive and even a Commodore tape drive

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
DrewT3 @ 1/12/2009 7:01:39 PM # Q
I still have my Amiga 1000, with the 1.5MB ram/fpu expansion. That was a fun machine. I remember pushing Sculpt3d to run and render without a harddrive. Finally settled on running the OS on one floppy, Sculpt on the other, and rendering to a 1MB RAM disk. Good times.
Just chucked the Quadra 650 a few weeks ago, finally got tired of it taking up closet space :)

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/13/2009 4:09:05 AM # Q
I have a pretty much virgin Amiga 1000 and 500, though I may have swapped around a floppy drive. I also have Aztec C and all that was with that for development (now THAT was interesting with only floppy drives!). Plus like 4 gajillion manuals describing the OS practically down to the bit level.

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
hotpaw4 @ 1/13/2009 8:47:43 AM # Q
Amiga gave geeks more of what they wanted... and Commodore went bankrupt doing that.

> Apple should hire the same accountants every other CE company uses, since they can release upgrades for free.

And do those accountants use accounting methods which continuously show those other CE companies as more profitable than Apple? Apple's accountant's picked Apple's revenue recognition methods for a reason. And that method has legal consequences as a side effect, given SOX.

.

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
nastebu @ 1/13/2009 12:03:32 PM # Q
"vapor ware" is harsh, but it's absolutely true that an iPhone in the hand has all the quirks and annoyances of a device you have to live with. A Pre in the bush has all the glow of imagined perfection that we hope for. When the Pre comes out, it will have bugs and annoyances and inconveniences, and all sorts of stupid choices. That's not a dig at Palm, that's the difference between something you imagine and something you hold.

They did an amazing job to run the first 90% of the marathon, but the last 10% is going to be very difficult.

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
NuShrike @ 1/14/2009 11:45:29 AM # Q
At this point, Tegra and Snapdragon are more vaporware than the Pre.

Palm III -> Sony NR610C -> Sony NR70 -> Sony NX80 -> Palm T|X -> HTC Kaiser -> HTC Fuze
RE: I think a point was forgotten...
joad @ 1/14/2009 12:20:16 PM # Q
It will probably be a pretty phone, the OS will have plenty of bugs, and maybe there will be a few apps that work on it - maybe on par with Blackberries if it comes out in June.

If you are hoping that the name "Palm" on it means there is ANY connection to ANYTHING that we loved about Palm, that's a tougher issue. It doesn't run any PalmOS apps, it doesn't have a memory slot that's been standard in Palm devices since the late '90s and included in nearly EVERY cell phone nowadays, and you'll need to throw out all of your cables and accessories (well, THAT one we're used to).

It's new hardware, brand new unproven OS with no proven applications or developers yet, and no legacy support at all. The name "Palm" has essentially become a brand name to slap on things for sucking out goodwill based on name recognition. This device breaks compatibility with anything that Palm was - bad OR good.

It's like Palm headed over to China and picked something off the shelf that looked pretty, slapped on their logo and are going to market it as a "Palm" device. It might as well have been that simple, as that's essentially what the Pre is.

Palm "Preh": as in "eh, where's the microSD and Garnet emulator?"

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/14/2009 1:11:39 PM # Q
> ...If you are hoping that the name "Palm" on it means there is
> ANY connection to ANYTHING that we loved about Palm, that's a
> tougher issue...

Demos of stuff seemed to require a lot of finger movements.

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 9:31:56 AM # Q
>>>If you are hoping that the name "Palm" on it means there is ANY connection to ANYTHING that we loved about Palm, that's a tougher issue. It doesn't run any PalmOS apps, it doesn't have a memory slot that's been standard in Palm devices since the late '90s and included in nearly EVERY cell phone nowadays, and you'll need to throw out all of your cables and accessories (well, THAT one we're used to).

Hmmm, let me see how that paragraph sounds like this:

If you are hoping that the name "Apple" on it means there is ANY connection to ANYTHING that we loved about Apple, that's a tougher issue. It doesn't run any Mac OS X apps, it doesn't have a memory slot that's been standard in other devices since the late '90s and included in nearly EVERY cell phone nowadays, and you'll need to buy cables and accessories (well, THAT one we're used to).

- no, really, how come no one ever said that about the iPhone?!

Palm *had* to make a Big Change. Our gripe has to do with what's still a frustrating mystery: importing legacy data and, for those with functionality/dollar investments, running legacy software.

How many of you have written to the vendors of the PalmOS you rely on to campaign for Pre versions?

I've already written to one vendor (Alex Bootman, see another thread), who said No. I've asked Stanza to port to Pre. No commitment, but not a clear No. I've even asked a Mac OS X and iPhone dev to port a *blogging* program to the Pre. A wait-and-see/maybe kind of response.

If all of you are just sitting there WHINING, get the fek off your crybaby asses and start ASKING!

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
twrock @ 1/16/2009 4:30:25 PM # Q
>>How many of you have written to the vendors of the PalmOS you rely on to campaign for Pre versions?

I wrote to SytleTap. I figured if they do it, I can find a way to slowly migrate Garnet apps over time. "One ring to rule them all...."


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: I think a point was forgotten...
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 5:27:52 PM # Q
I also wrote to StyleTap today too.

And I whiiiiined on Twitter to UStreamTV and to Stanza.

Reply to this comment

Palm may sell 1.5m Pre phones in 1st year

mikecane @ 1/12/2009 12:39:39 PM # Q
RE: Palm may sell 1.5m Pre phones in 1st year
AdamaDBrown @ 1/12/2009 5:29:14 PM # Q
And people were talking about 40 million iPhones the first year too. What the analysts are doing is pulling numbers out of thin air to make a headline, because it gets their opinion out there now, and when it's proven wrong nobody cares anymore.

RE: Palm may sell 1.5m Pre phones in 1st year
jca666us @ 1/12/2009 6:38:06 PM # Q
>Oh please. If mobiles were going to become virus havens thanks to open architectures WinMob and PalmOS
>would have been targeted long, long ago.

>Apple simply used "security" as an excuse for the things they didn't want to deliver. Remember when Steve said >"no third-party apps, we don't want them bringing down AT&T's network?" Far as I know, it's withstood the >onslaught just fine so far...

Actually, Apple used security as an excuse to secure mobile os x. at one time, everything ran under root - which has been long since fixed and several bugs have been fixed.

Steve said no third party apps - because a proper sdk wasn't available nor was the ecosystem to support 3rd. party apps available.

What there was - at the time - were web apps. Which, iirc, you lambasted because in your opinion, the iphone was a closed environment and no proper sdk was available.

Now palm is pushing javascript and css as a development environment - yet now it's a good thing???



RE: Palm may sell 1.5m Pre phones in 1st year
DrewT3 @ 1/12/2009 7:10:12 PM # Q
Palm's Mojo environment is very different than iPhone 1.0's web apps. Apple's webapps were web pages that the phone accessed through the radio, that did not have any access to the phone data.
Palm's solution is javascript running on the phone accessing the phone APIs directly. It works without a network connection and can read and write phone data. As an idea it isn't any better or worse than Java, they are both interpreted code running in a sandbox that hides the hardware. The most important bit is what class library and APIs Palm will provide to Javascript.

RE: Palm may sell 1.5m Pre phones in 1st year
jca666us @ 1/13/2009 5:50:13 PM # Q
one correction - iphone webapps also had access to resources on the phone.

still. javascript apps aren't anything special - let's see the pre's sdk - when it's completed.


Reply to this comment

What a useless comparison

abosco @ 1/12/2009 4:13:22 PM # Q
How about we make another article with these comparison points:

iTunes Integration - iPhone syncs everything from iTunes. Pre is too good for syncing, apparently.
Coverflow Availability - iPhone has plenty of coverflow. Where is Pre's?
OS Stability - iPhone doesn't require hourly resetting. Pre is made by Palm ('nuff said).
Built-In Storage Capacity - iPhone comes with 16 GB available. Pre comes with 8 GB.
Phone Existence - I can buy an iPhone right now. I can't buy a Pre.
Price - $199 with contract vs unknown.

There you have it. The most unbiased comparison between the iPhone and Pre. That's essentially what this editorial is like.

How can you claim the browser on the Pre is just as good as Safari? How can you claim the battery is better just because it's replaceable, even though it's a smaller capacity? How can you claim the development platform is comparable when there have been about three total applications written for it so far? 10,000 iPhone applications in one year is suddenly tied with a platform that has been unveiled for 4 days? How did Palm suddenly do better multi-touch than the iPhone when they own the IP on its technology?

Tim, will you ever be able to provide an actual unbiased article? Or just more of the same Palm-Is-Always-The-Winner bullshit?

Why is this clown still allowed to write for this site?

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: What a useless comparison
Gekko @ 1/12/2009 4:19:59 PM # Q

Apple tax!!!!!! that's a lot of bagels!

RE: What a useless comparison
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2009 4:23:39 PM # Q
We tried to bring this:

- http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/12/palm-pre-the-emperors-new-phone/

to his attention - he dismissed it outright.

RE: What a useless comparison
abosco @ 1/12/2009 4:49:59 PM # Q
Apple tax!!!!!! that's a lot of bagels!

So what are you going to do now that you have no more upgrade path? Buy a stock of Centro's and a lockbox? God forbid you have to take 4 minutes to learn a new OS. Is it iPhone time for you in 2010? Are you feeling a certain masturbatory glee as you suddenly feel like voting Democrat and wearing turtlenecks?

We tried to bring this:

- http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/12/palm-pre-the-emperors-new-phone/

to his attention - he dismissed it outright.

That piece does a good job of highlighting the desperation of the media to find a smartphone that matches the iPhone stride-for-stride. The argument of double-standard acceptance of no full SDK for the Pre and iPhone is excellent. He's very correct; Apple got raked over the coals before it released 2.0 and had web-based development only. Suddenly, the Pre is ahead of the curve with the same.

So we're looking at 4 months before it's released on Sprint, 10 months before it's available on domestic GSM networks, 24 months before a full SDK is available, and maybe only 6 months before nobody cares anymore?

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: What a useless comparison
twrock @ 1/12/2009 6:03:02 PM # Q
"What a useless comparison"
....Tim, will you ever be able to provide an actual unbiased article? Or just more of the same Palm-Is-Always-The-Winner bullshit?

Huh? He simply used the same categories as the Gizmodo article. You can't fault him for choosing those.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: What a useless comparison
heavyduty @ 1/13/2009 2:45:53 AM # Q
That piece does a good job of highlighting the desperation of the media to find a smartphone that matches the iPhone stride-for-stride. The argument of double-standard acceptance of no full SDK for the Pre and iPhone is excellent. He's very correct; Apple got raked over the coals before it released 2.0 and had web-based development only. Suddenly, the Pre is ahead of the curve with the same.

For f****s sake, it's NOT the same.

On the iPhone, using webapps, can you:
- create system wide alerts and notifications?
- access the system message buss?
- access and create application DBs?
- create apps that run *outside* the web browser?


On the Pre, JS/Ajax/HTML is simply the programming language/framework, which will allow developers to the those things. So please explain how the he11 can it be the same??

If it were straight web-based development, with the limitations that that implies there wouldn't be any need for an API, would there? They'd simply say to all developers: "create any webapp, and then publish it on the Pre".

I fully expect that the vast majority of apps created with Mojo will be, if not fully native, very "native-like", with only games, doc-editors and other resource intensive apps needed to be coded in C++.

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect) -> Nokia E51 (un/impressive) -> Touch Enhanced (nice!) -> Samsung 780 (mousepad woes) -> HTC S740 (stellar)

RE: What a useless comparison
freakout @ 1/13/2009 4:12:46 AM # Q
bosco:
Tim, will you ever be able to provide an actual unbiased article?

So long as it continues to infuriate you? No. :P

Why is this clown still allowed to write for this site?

I wonder myself sometimes. I chalk it up to my stunning good looks.

SV:
We tried to bring this:

- http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/12/palm-pre-the-emperors-new-phone/

to his attention - he dismissed it outright.

You do know I'm not the editor, right? There's a "news tips" link right there on the front page: http://www.palminfocenter.com/news-tips.asp - give it a whirl!

If I was the editor though, I wouldn't consider the piece particularly news-worthy, coming as it does from one of the most biased sites on the Internet. The article we're all commenting on, though, comes from a much more even-handed blog that covers gadgets of all varieties as its stock-in-trade. If they're impressed, it's far more interesting than RoughlyDrafted's sour grapes at the iPhone being out of the limelight for a few days.


RE: What a useless comparison
twrock @ 1/13/2009 6:51:58 AM # Q
If I was the editor though, I wouldn't consider the piece particularly news-worthy, coming as it does from one of the most biased sites on the Internet.

Tim, Tim, Tim, you still don't get it, do you? If it's biased FOR Palm, it's me-too media and horrible journalism. If it's biased AGAINST Palm, it's obviously the standard of truth.

We've been over this before. Why do you still not get it?


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: What a useless comparison
abosco @ 1/13/2009 12:03:21 PM # Q
What about Slashdot's opinion of the iPod when it was first unveiled?

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/1816257&tid=107

It sounded like such a bust. You mean to tell me that consumer electronics sell based on factors other than raw specifications!?!?

These sites are frequently wrong.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: What a useless comparison
freakout @ 1/13/2009 12:22:00 PM # Q
twrock:
We've been over this before. Why do you still not get it?

I'm just too damn thick! ;)

abosco:
These sites are frequently wrong.

You'll find no disagreement here. Still interesting though.

Reply to this comment

Dumb comparison

lobotomic @ 1/12/2009 11:40:56 PM # Q
Dumb categories, dumb choices...

It is funny though that Android loses on every category... or is it the G1 that loses? I think Android is a very neat platform, (although its GUI could do with some beautification), but the G1 is one of the ugliest and clumsiest phones on the market.

How could they come to the market with such an ugly contraption, when the iPhone was standing opposite in the ring? It is an astonishing choice, when Android *already* runs fine in existing phones that are much slimmer and better looking, as well as a lot cheaper, and that are *also made by HTC*. A thin coat of makeup over their Touch devices would have given T1 a range of Android smartphones from $99 to $499. I've got a first gen HTC Touch, and WinMob sucks (badly), but the phone is slim(mer) and light(er) (than an iPhone), and battery life is good; and the hardware has gotten nothing but better since (not WinMob, though).

Android beautification and diversification is coming, be sure, and it will be dirt cheap. Android apps are coming, too, with many less restrictions than Apple and Palm impose. No missing memory card slot, no wedding to iTunes, no imposed limitations on your program's abilities...

Android got 0 out of 10 in this comparison, but I bet that in the long run it is the winning horse. Fortunately, there is space for everybody in this podium, because I do wish Palm luck with this new product: I really, really like it. As for Apple...

RE: Dumb comparison
joad @ 1/14/2009 12:24:49 PM # Q
Yeah, G1 Android is one ugly duck and clumsy to hold. I was shocked that was the best Google could do, given their resources and noting the competition. Underwhelming, at best.

Palm "Preh": as in "eh, where's the microSD and Garnet emulator?"
Reply to this comment

Remember Treo vs. iPhone?

cstamper @ 1/13/2009 7:39:58 AM # Q
IIRC, the Treo won. What a joke.

This time, palm at least looks comparable. Never thought I'd see the day...

http://tinyurl.com/2ooncg

RE: Remember Treo vs. iPhone?
freakout @ 1/13/2009 12:34:05 PM # Q
If by "won", you mean a score of 6-5 (which is more "barely scraping by") then yeah, it did. It had better phone/messaging features (like BUTTONS), at the time of writing it was far cheaper, it had 3G, it had third-party support, non-crippled Bluetooth, a removable battery...

Were I to write the same article now, iPhone would win handily. Still wouldn't be my personal preference though. And fortunately for them, Palm has new game in town.

Reply to this comment

iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!

mikecane @ 1/13/2009 10:06:49 AM # Q
What the Palm Pre Stole from the iPhone… and What the iPhone Should Steal From the Pre
http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/01/13/palm-pre-stole-iphone-iphone-steal-pre/

Oooh, CoverFlow multitasking FTW!

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
freakout @ 1/13/2009 12:38:30 PM # Q
It's a fun article, although I'd argue that iPhone "stole" from the Treo to begin with (mute switch/threaded messaging/one-touch on-screen call management buttons/a row of major application buttons on the bottom of the screen)

They're right that Palm ripped off the hardware pretty heavily though. I think we can all be thankful that they did...

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
mikecane @ 1/13/2009 2:27:54 PM # Q
Given that everyone else has been trying to rip off the iPhone, we can be thankful Palm did it *correctly* and, for some people, *better* (ie, the soft keyboard h8rz).

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
lobotomic @ 1/14/2009 12:07:19 AM # Q
Rip the hardware? Please... The sliding keyboard format is totally different from apple's slab, and the phone seems to be a lot smaller (the iPhone is quite a sizeable slab, in my opinion). And both are based on (different) commercial CPUs with pre-integrated peripherals and drivers that pretty much dictate how the electronics are going to be. There are tons of phones with GPS in the market, and the OpenMoko phone had accelerometers in it before the iPhone came. As for multitouch, it is evidently not an Apple invention: after all, they bought a commercial multitouch sensor, which must have been designed for, let's think... multitouch gestures? Oh, and the camera in the Pré seems to be vastly better: apparently they hired som experts in DSLR cameras to get some great image processing which is absolutely missing in the iPhone.

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
abosco @ 1/14/2009 6:53:07 AM # Q
You're right. This thing looks nothing like the iPhone. Just like the enV, Vu, Dare, Instinct, Storm, HTC Touch...

Yeah, it's an iClone.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
mikecane @ 1/14/2009 10:30:01 AM # Q
>>>Oh, and the camera in the Pré seems to be vastly better: apparently they hired som experts in DSLR cameras to get some great image processing which is absolutely missing in the iPhone.

Yes, that better camera in the Pre is nice. But the iPhone - even with lower res - is able to kick out some nice pics.
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/03/24/iphone-camera-test/

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
joad @ 1/14/2009 12:33:11 PM # Q
A better camera is always welcome. As long as there's enough space provided for proper storage.

OOPS, Preh.

Palm "Preh": as in "eh, where's the microSD and Garnet emulator?"

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
hkklife @ 1/16/2009 7:18:48 AM # Q
Not to sound like a SV doubting thomas, but let's keep in mind that at this stage of the game, everything regarding the Pre's camera is marketing hyperbole and specs. We've never seen any sample images (from Palm or elsewhere) or gotten a subjective "review" of the quality of its stills. I'd rather have a quality 1 megapixel image than a crummy, noise-laden 3 megapixel image.

So, spec-wise, the Pre's camera wins out. But Palm's devices have historically never had very good cameras so if the Pre does have a superior camera over the iPhone and the G1 then that will a small but fairly significant win for Palm. And again, I ask-where's my damm video recording !?!? Oh yeah, that's right...video would fill up the available internal storage too quickly. Preh indeed!

Who came up with "Fooleo" back in '07? Joad gets this year's award for "Preh" but Gekko still holds the all-time trophy for "FrankenGarnet"


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
SeldomVisitor @ 1/16/2009 8:01:35 AM # Q
> ...Who came up with "Fooleo" back in '07...

The first instance of it that I know of was on AllThingsD:

== "...And here, nearly two years later, is the future to which Hawkins
== referred, the Palm Foleo (critics will inevitably dub it the "Fooleo")..."

- http://d5.allthingsd.com/20070530/palm-foleo/


RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
hkklife @ 1/16/2009 8:39:21 AM # Q
MANY thanks for that bit of info! You have a memory like an elephant!

Again, I urge caution for anyone expecting standalone digicam-style image quality on the Pre until we see some actual image quality samples. That said, the Pre's camera app seemed to be quite responsive and possessing a far better UI than previous Palm camera apps. The Pre's camera app was very iPhone-esque in appearance.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: iPhone vs. Pre: Fight! Fight!
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 9:16:31 AM # Q
>>>I'd rather have a quality 1 megapixel image than a crummy, noise-laden 3 megapixel image.

Wait, wait, wait. Rubinstein is now the Hardware Master over there. You REALLY think he'd let a crapcam go through with his approval?

>>>And again, I ask-where's my damm video recording !?!? Oh yeah, that's right...video would fill up the available internal storage too quickly. Preh indeed!

Are you CERTAIN of that? Look at the specs for the Flip MinoHD - which does HD recording:
http://www.theflip.com/products_flip_ultra_specs.II.shtml

- it has HALF the memory of the Pre! And it can SIXTY MINUTES of HD with that! Now really, HOW MANY people are going to even TRY to record an HOUR of frikkin video with a CELLPHONE?!

Looking at the MinoHD specs (click on down arrows at right; stupid site design!), I don't see any mention of any SD - or otherwise - slot, either.

Reply to this comment

Dell Android Phone?

Gekko @ 1/16/2009 5:38:35 AM # Q

Tuesday, January 13th

Dell said nearing smartphone launch

Dell is getting closer to releasing its long-rumored first smartphone, according to a research note by Kaufman Bros. analyst Shaw Wu. Investigations within Dell's supply chain point reportedly indicate that a Dell smartphone is "closer to reality" after roughly two years of discussions with those companies that might offer parts for the device. No specific launch window has been set.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/01/13/amtech.on.dell.smartphone/

RE: Dell Android Phone?
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 9:08:59 AM # Q
And so what? AFAIK, Dell's netbooks are like 3rd-4th fiddle against Asus and MSI.

And what retail outlets will CARRY this Dell phone, eh?

Android risks becoming as fragmented as I originally said back at the start (someone go dig up that link where I say Android for feature phones vs smart phones would be a weird fractured beastie).

I predict that within six months - frikkin economy willing - Palm will sell 500,000 of the Pre, easily crushing the introduction of the G1.

It will become a two-horse race: iPhone and Pre. Android will be the outsider everyone smirks at.

RE: Dell Android Phone?
hkklife @ 1/16/2009 9:43:17 AM # Q
I'd put Dell's netbooks a solid SEVENTH after (in no particular order) Asus, Acer, MSI, Lenovo, Samsung and HP.


The Dell Mini line (though there are a few intriguing specs on the just-announced Mini 10) is terribly underwhelming. I do give Dell props for finally breaking out of the 10" screen size limit.

BTW, Mike, speaking of netbooks & cheap ultraportables, I personally fondled the HP DV2 at CES and I am delighted to say it's all that I was hoping it to be. If it's not plugged up with too much bloatware and the price isn't out of sight (ie it's gotta be <$700) then it's probably the perfect combination of size/price/specs. AMD/ATI might have the sleeper hit of the year with their Nano and put some fear into Intel (albeit a brief scare). I'm not too hot on the aesthetics (they had a white one and a black one on display) and HP DOES tend to go nuts with the bloatware but it's surprisingly thin and appears to be very well built.



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Dell Android Phone?
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 10:10:28 AM # Q
>>>I'd put Dell's netbooks a solid SEVENTH after (in no particular order) Asus, Acer, MSI, Lenovo, Samsung and HP.

After I hit Publish, I remembered HP. Not sure about your order, was talking more about sales than quality. And yeah, Acer has been a BIG surprise!

Isn't that new hp a 12"-screen one? Too big. (So is the MacBook Air, people!)

Hmmm ... Palm Pre phone. Palm Postbook?!!?

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