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Comments on: Confirmed: iTunes 9 Breaks webOS Media Sync Again

iTunes Icon Apple today released a major new version of its iTunes media software. The new version 9.0 brings a number of new features including expanded synchronization options for iPod/iPhone devices, new music store functionality and an improved interface.

Of primary concern to Palm Pre users is that iTunes v9 does indeed break webOS's Media Sync iTunes functionality. At this point users who wish to retain the ability to sync their Pre with iTunes should hold off from upgrading and stick with the previous version 8.2.1.

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Hazard a Guess?

LiveFaith @ 9/9/2009 12:34:35 PM # Q
I can hazard a guess on what Palm has in mind. This is great. As long as Apple keeps doing this Palm will keep bringing updates. :-)
Also, I would love to see the source code for iTunes sync in about 3 years. BOS no doubt.
Pat Horne
RE: Hazard a Guess?
loftwyr @ 9/9/2009 12:47:17 PM # Q
That's probably why 1.2 is being pushed out. They needed to see what changes were necessary for itunes to work.

Or not, maybe 1.2.1 will be out soon.
PalmPilot Pro -> Palm 3 -> Palm 5 -> Palm 505 -> Palm T3 -> Treo 700p -> Pre

RE: Hazard a Guess?
CFreymarc @ 9/10/2009 2:11:42 PM # Q
The cat and mouse game continues.

Apple is more about user experience than choices. Apple is insanely concerned about the right thing that anything that runs code they want under their umbrella. Why Palm is even trying this back end hack that you would expect form a handful of college kids still has my head scratching.

There are plenty of competing music stores that are desperately trying to get some market space so why is Palm trying this at all? Going on and off like this only disenchants the market.

Reply to this comment

Sh*t!

jnuneznj @ 9/9/2009 3:18:41 PM # Q
When does it end? Palm quit wasting resource and get a sync app out there ASAP. Doesn't have to do much. Manage my podcast, my music collection and allow me to make playlist. A 2 man team could have completed this by now (starting after the Pre's release)

Also get me a bigger Pre. Just saw the Pixi announcement and thought WTF!

RE: Sh*t!
jca666us @ 9/9/2009 4:01:25 PM # Q
It ends when Palm realizes that they can't get by being cheap asses and co-opting Apple's technology.

I believe Palm indicated that they had options in the event they couldn't co-opt itunes?

I guess those options fell by the wayside - time for them to develop their own sync solution.

RE: Sh*t!
bhartman34 @ 9/9/2009 6:33:58 PM # Q
jca666us said:

I guess those options fell by the wayside - time for them to develop their own sync solution.

Palm has syncing solutions.

1) Media Sync (which works w/ a lot more than just iTunes).
2) Drag & Drop
3) Palm Music Assistant.

Those are in addition to the homebrew solutions that allow music streaming from sources like Shoutcast, Last.fm, etc.

I don't deny that iTunes syncing is important to some people, but it's simply untrue that iTunes syncing is the only way to go with the Pre (or the Pixi).

RE: Sh*t!
Tim_Carroll @ 9/9/2009 7:54:55 PM # Q
bhartman34: you can add:

(4) Winamp, Windows Media Player and any other desktop software that supports syncing to USB drives

RE: Sh*t!
twrock @ 9/9/2009 8:26:44 PM # Q
bhartman34 wrote:
Palm has syncing solutions.

What?!! There is something besides iTunes? No way!!!!!

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
Reply to this comment

Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....

pmjoe @ 9/9/2009 6:06:22 PM # Q
They'd better get cracking on improving their own products, rather than worrying about breaking Palm's.
RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
hkklife @ 9/9/2009 6:24:20 PM # Q
Agreed. The new Nano is nice enough and it IS nice to see the return of the 160GB iPod Classsic (even though it was originally available 2 years ago) but the utter failure to improve the Touch line really stings. Seeing Apple neglect the iPod Touch is almost like....seeing Palm neglect their PDA line earlier in the decade! Looks like Palm's won this round, as the Pixi is certain to keep the chatter going much more than a few warmed-over iPods.

That said, 64GB of flash + OpenGL 2.0 support + a faster CPU will still make for a nice little gaming device if nothing else. IMO the 8GB Touch should've dropped down to $150 or disappeared entirely and a refreshed 16GB version with the faster processor, camera & FM tuner would've make a superb $200 entry.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
jca666us @ 9/9/2009 6:39:00 PM # Q
hkk - I think that's where apple sees the ipod touch line going (although the addition of a camera to the touch would have been better for app development).
RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
Gekko @ 9/9/2009 6:48:22 PM # Q

uh - let us know when and if you see a Pre in the wild - let alone a Pixi.


RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
hkklife @ 9/9/2009 6:52:33 PM # Q
jca;

Where exactly is "that" where you think Apple is heading? The PDA graveyard inhabited by old Garnet handhelds or the portable gaming console market? Just wanting a clarification there (I ASSUME you meant gaming...)

I really am stunned to see Apple not putting a camera on the Touch. They could really make a strong push into the augmented reality gaming field as well as take a nice chunk of the market for those cheap Vado/Flip pocket "camcorders".
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
hkklife @ 9/9/2009 6:54:38 PM # Q
To date I have seen ONE Pre in the wild in use. I've also seen a Pre purchase transacton in its final stages at BB. So I suppose that's technically 2 Pre I've spotted since launch. The customer buying the Pre was a middle-aged businessman and the Pre in use was toted by a late 20-something hipster.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?
RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
Tim_Carroll @ 9/9/2009 7:41:02 PM # Q
Pre has only been on the market for three months, on the least-popular major carrier. It took ages for me to start seeing iPhones cropping up in the wild after its Aussie debut, even with the big sales.

Give it time.

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
Gekko @ 9/9/2009 7:53:39 PM # Q

AT&T was the least popular carrier before the iPhone. the only reason AT&T has their subscriber base is because of the iPhone. the iPhone drove people to AT&T - network and coverage be damned. the Pre isn't driving too many to Sprint.

the iPhone is a wildly successful phone that was/is a game changer.

the Pre is a niche phone with less than stellar success.

what does it say when a fan site like this has one maybe two Pre users? and don't blame Sprint.

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
Tim_Carroll @ 9/9/2009 7:56:51 PM # Q
what does it say when a fan site like this has one maybe two Pre users?

It says Precentral are doing an amazing job at hogging the traffic. :P

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
jca666us @ 9/9/2009 7:58:13 PM # Q
>Where exactly is "that" where you think Apple is heading?

As a gaming device (with the ipod touch).

>The PDA graveyard inhabited by old Garnet handhelds or the portable gaming
>console market? Just wanting a clarification there (I ASSUME you meant
>gaming...)

Couldn't be the PDA graveyard as it's technically *not* a PDA.

>I really am stunned to see Apple not putting a camera on the Touch. They
>could really make a strong push into the augmented reality gaming field as
>well as take a nice chunk of the market for those cheap Vado/Flip pocket
>"camcorders".

Agreed with you there - guess Apple doesn't want to have an ipod touch (with video recording) eating into iphone 3gs sales.

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
Gekko @ 9/9/2009 7:59:15 PM # Q

no if it was a truly a great product, everyone here would have switched - regardless of carrier - TMobile excluded.
RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
hkklife @ 9/9/2009 8:14:06 PM # Q
If Palm had a <$200 wi-fi based "Pre Touch" I'd probably buy one for PIC & general curiosity purposes.

If Verizon had the Pre available right NOW, I'd possibly buy one (but not guaranteed).

Under no circumstances woulkd I switch to Sprint (or any other carrier) just to get a Pre (or any other current device from any manufacturer).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
Gekko @ 9/9/2009 8:29:47 PM # Q

i just saw one of these in the wild at lunch a few days ago -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juso20n0RPQ

an indian was showing it off to a chinaman. go figure.

it looked sweet.

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
Gekko @ 9/9/2009 8:34:39 PM # Q
>guess Apple doesn't want to have an ipod touch (with video recording) eating into iphone 3gs sales.


September 9, 2009, 6:18 pm
Q&A: Steve Jobs Snipes at Amazon, Praises Ice Cream
By David Pogue

Q.You put a camcorder on the iPod Nano. Why not on the iPod Touch?

A.Originally, we weren't exactly sure how to market the Touch. Was it an iPhone without the phone? Was it a pocket computer? What happened was, what customers told us was, they started to see it as a game machine. Because a lot of the games were free on the store. Customers started to tell us, "You don't know what you've got here it's a great game machine, with the multitouch screen, the accelerometer, and so on."

We started to market it that way, and it just took off. And now what we really see is it's the lowest-cost way to the App Store, and that's the big draw. So what we were focused on is just reducing the price to $199. We don't need to add new stuff we need to get the price down where everyone can afford it.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/in-qa-steve-jobs-snipes-at-amazon-and-praises-ice-cream/

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
twrock @ 9/9/2009 9:56:02 PM # Q
Gekko, the Android phones just keep getting better and better. Everything from a 3.5" screened T-Mobile Pulse to the very small HTC Tatoo to the HTC Hero showing up in multiple shapes, the releases/new product announcements are really starting to come quickly now. The OS is maturing very well, and by the time something like that Pulse is available where I am (I want the large screen), version 2.0 of the OS ("Donut") should be on it.

I thinks Google's plan is moving along very well at the moment. And I'm not just trolling when I say that even Apple ought to be "running scared" (to reference your oft used Gates quote).

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
gfunkmagic @ 9/9/2009 11:07:31 PM # Q
"what does it say when a fan site like this has one maybe two Pre users? and don't blame Sprint."


It says PIC's forums died long time ago....
--------------------
Gaurav

Current devices: Treo 650 + Axim X50v
Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600

Moderator, Treocentral

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
twrock @ 9/10/2009 12:36:57 AM # Q
gfunkmagic wrote:
"what does it say when a fan site like this has one maybe two Pre users? and don't blame Sprint."


It says PIC's forums died long time ago....


[cynical_mode] Yeah, I don't think a lot of Pre users are interested in hanging out on a supposed Palm oriented website with this many "Palm anti-fanboys", irritating Apple fanboys, Garnet-loving whiners, "nostalgic-for-the-good-ol'-days" PDA users, and "I'm-just-waiting-for-some-other-device-to-show-up-before-I-leave" hanger-on'ers. [/cynical_mode] Why would anyone who actually likes their Pre hang around here with the likes of us?

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
SeldomVisitor @ 9/10/2009 3:23:02 AM # Q
> ...Why would anyone who actually likes their Pre hang around
> here with the likes of us?

Because, except for only 3 posters, the comments are unemotional and unbiased.

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
twrock @ 9/10/2009 4:56:41 AM # Q
SeldomVisitor wrote:
Because, except for only 3 posters, the comments are unemotional and unbiased.

I almost spit my drink all over my keyboard reading that one.

Oh please, pretty please, give us the list of those three. ;-)

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
twrock @ 9/10/2009 6:57:17 AM # Q
... and Gekko, Oprah can help you get that MyTouch for $100 cheaper right now:
http://phandroid.com/2009/09/09/99-mytouch-with-oprahs/

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: Given how disappointing Apple's announcements were today ....
bhartman34 @ 9/10/2009 9:31:26 AM # Q
Gekko wrote:

no if it was a truly a great product, everyone here would have switched - regardless of carrier - TMobile excluded.

Gekko:

I think there are some problems with your analysis there.

There were people here, as well as Precentral, who specifically said they'd wait until the Pre came to Verizon, because they didn't like the Sprint network for one reason or another. No phone has the power to overcome a network with that kind of reputation.

By contrast, almost all of the griping you hear about AT&T is from people who switched to AT&T for the iPhone. The lines of people waiting for the 1st-gen iPhone weren't there because they did a measured cost-benefit analysis of the phone and the network. They were fanboys/girls who would buy Steve Jobs' feces if he could figure out a way to slap an Apple logo on it. (I'm not saying the first-gen iPhone was feces. I'm just pointing out that the exuberance over the iPhone was driven by Apple fans and existed despite the fact that all the reviews said that the iPhone wasn't much of a phone.)

Some of that has started to change because of the draconian moves of AT&T & Apple, as people begin to realize that the carrier's attitude towards their network does matter. But the main point is, the only reason that someone would ignore the network a phone is on when considering what phone to buy is either a) it's not a phone to them, or b) they've joined a cult. I think the iPhone benefited from a little bit of both.

So pointing to the iPhone as an example of people buying a phone despite the network isn't really a good example, because those people aren't buying phones. They're essentially buying iPods with 3G connections and monthly carrier bills.

Reply to this comment

Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers

Tim_Carroll @ 9/9/2009 7:36:47 PM # Q
The idea that someone might want to use their software and shop at their well-stocked store but not use their hardware really doesn't compute with them, does it?

This kind of exclusionary "it's our way or the highway" behaviour is a perfect example of why I don't use Apple's products. They like to pretend they're some great alternative to the Microsoft monolith, but in reality have become even worse examples of corporate bully-boy tactics themselves.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own custo
jca666us @ 9/9/2009 8:07:45 PM # Q
>The idea that someone might want to use their software and shop at their
>well-stocked store but not use their hardware really doesn't compute with
>them, does it?

Of course it does; there's no drm on itunes purchased music and only drm on movies and tv shows (due to the content providers).

I can play non-drm'ed files on my psp, pc, or my mac. I don't have to use itunes if I don't want to.

If anything, Apple locking the Pre out of itunes sync process is more likely Apple raising the middle finger to Palm.

Palm should attempt something novel - writing their own sync software.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
twrock @ 9/9/2009 8:21:34 PM # Q
I just imagine a world in which Apple has the monopoly that MS has, and it ain't pretty. One company with control over everything (hardware, software, content, delivery system, etc.) is not a good thing. Throw on top of that the Apple culture, and it looks even worse to me.

But as always, YMMV, and apparently it does for "the millions who can't be wrong".

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
Tim_Carroll @ 9/9/2009 8:22:36 PM # Q
If anything, Apple locking the Pre out of itunes sync process is more likely Apple raising the middle finger to Palm.

Point. You missed it.

Customers don't care about stupid corporate contests. They just care that their software works, and Apple are deliberately breaking theirs for no other reason than to screw over a much smaller competitor. It is an anti-consumer attitude in effect, even if not in intent.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own custo
jca666us @ 9/9/2009 9:13:23 PM # Q
>They just care that their software works, and Apple are deliberately breaking
>theirs for no other reason than to screw over a much smaller competitor.

Apple isn't breaking itunes - as itunes was never advertised as syncing with a Pre (except by Palm - the guys who didn't write itunes).

>It is an anti-consumer attitude in effect, even if not in intent.

It's more anti-Palm - as they're doing something with itunes that Apple (the makers of the software) do not want to allow.

As you know, Palm can always use the xml file within itunes for interoperability with itunes, however that would take a real effort by Palm.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own custo
abosco @ 9/9/2009 9:40:51 PM # M Q
It's Palm's own fault. Stop relying on Apple's coding to do your job for you. Create your own desktop software and have it interface with the iTunes XML files.

Blame Palm before you blame Apple. This is stupid on their end if they see it as such a desirable feature. You really can't argue against that.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
Tim_Carroll @ 9/9/2009 10:03:54 PM # Q
It's Palm's fault that Apple are deliberately crippling iTunes not to sync with other devices?

Nope. Apple are faced with a clear choice in regards to Palm's Media Sync:

(1) Ignore it, and make iTunes users happy.

(2) Deliberately break it, and make Apple happy.

Yes, (1) would make Palm happy too. The question is: what's more important to Apple? Screwing Palm, or pleasing their customers?

We have our answer.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own custo
jca666us @ 9/9/2009 11:23:15 PM # M Q
You have your answer because you're asking the wrong question.

As a consumer of iTunes - I'm happy with it - breaking pre's faux compatibility or not.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own custo
abosco @ 9/10/2009 4:26:02 AM # M Q
You are entitled to your opinion. Just realize that it's wrong.

Let's look at it another way. Let's say that somehow, Palm could emulate iPhone software and they began piggybacking off the App Store. Apple would break compatibility, and you would cry anti-competitive because the devices don't have access to apps that someone already purchased, and those apps are keeping people locked into Apple.

Except in the real case, the media files are available, and Palm just has to create their own desktop sync program and plug it into iTunes' files. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask companies to make their own sync. I do think it is unreasonable to spoof the competition so that you have to do less work.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
Tim_Carroll @ 9/10/2009 5:47:32 AM # Q
You are entitled to your opinion. Just realize that it's wrong.

lol. I guess we have an agree to disagree situation on our hands.

I don't see why you're determined to see this as Palm simply being lazy, though. They could indeed easily build their own sync solution as others have, but the problem with all of those is that they require iTunes users to install yet another piece of software on their PCs. From a user standpoint, the optimal solution is obviously being able to sync from within iTunes itself, which is perfectly capable of it.

If I were running Palm, I'd be doing exactly what they're doing already. iTunes is clearly one of, if not the most popular desktop music manager. By allowing owners of Palm hardware to directly sync with it they're offering iTunes users a better solution than the one available to owners of other devices. It benefits both Palm and consumers.

Direct iTunes sync fits perfectly with the whole Synergy concept: the user decides what services they want to use to manage their data. Palm are simply enabling them to do so.

You are right: if Palm could emulate iPhone apps and Apple deliberately broke it I'd call shenanigans on that, too - because it would be not only bad for consumers but bad for developers too, who would see their potential market expanded. I would make the same complaint if Microsoft were to deliberately engineer Windows apps to be incompatible with Wine on Linux, or tweak Windows so it no longer worked with Parallels on the Mac.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own custo
jca666us @ 9/10/2009 6:00:47 AM # M Q
Maybe Palm should rename MediaSync to MediaSpoof
RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
bhartman34 @ 9/10/2009 9:47:25 AM # Q
jca666us wrote:
Maybe Palm should rename MediaSync to MediaSpoof

Media Sync does more than sync with iTunes. It'll sync with many media players. The only "spoofing" going on is in regards to how iTunes sees the Pre. No other media software checks the way iTunes does.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
bhartman34 @ 9/10/2009 10:15:47 AM # Q
abosco wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion. Just realize that it's wrong.

Let's look at it another way. Let's say that somehow, Palm could emulate iPhone software and they began piggybacking off the App Store. Apple would break compatibility, and you would cry anti-competitive because the devices don't have access to apps that someone already purchased, and those apps are keeping people locked into Apple.

Except in the real case, the media files are available, and Palm just has to create their own desktop sync program and plug it into iTunes' files. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask companies to make their own sync. I do think it is unreasonable to spoof the competition so that you have to do less work.

The problem with that analysis, as I see it, is that iTunes isn't doing anything special to sync. All Apple would have to do to sync with every media player out there (that supports USB) is to simply remove that check. Let's be really clear here: The issue isn't that people love the iTunes functionality so much that they can't live without using iTunes. The issue here is that people are used to using iTunes. Even if you create another app to do the syncing, some people still want their iTunes, because it's familiar, like an old pair of sneakers.

Palm already has three other methods of syncing music files (besides using iTunes), so it's not like you can say they didn't do the work. More importantly, though, the problem is that this isn't really about Apple not wanting their work stolen. It's about Apple trying to protect iPods and iPhones by claiming that there's a "special relationship" between them and iTunes. That special relationship is sustained only by this cheesy, ineffective VID check, though. And the reality is, any homebrew developer could easily go in and modify the WebOS code to do the same thing that Palm has been doing, because what Apple's using for "security" here isn't a secure piece of data. The USB metadata is available for all to see:


Bus 002 Device 011: ID 05ac:8002 Apple, Inc.
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 1
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
idVendor 0x05ac Apple, Inc.
idProduct 0x8002
bcdDevice 0.16
iManufacturer 1 Palm Inc.
iProduct 2 Pre
iSerial 3 4ab9ad039bf3bc6
bNumConfigurations 1
Configuration Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 2
wTotalLength 62
bNumInterfaces 2
bConfigurationValue 1
iConfiguration 4 Composite 500mA
bmAttributes 0xc0
Self Powered
MaxPower 500mA
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 0
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 8 Mass Storage
bInterfaceSubClass 6 SCSI
bInterfaceProtocol 80 Bulk (Zip)
iInterface 17 Mass Storage
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x81 EP 1 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x01 EP 1 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 3
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 71
bInterfaceProtocol 17
iInterface 20 novacom linux
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x82 EP 2 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x02 EP 2 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x83 EP 3 IN
bmAttributes 3
Transfer Type Interrupt
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0008 1x 8 bytes
bInterval 6
Device Qualifier (for other device speed):
bLength 10
bDescriptorType 6
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
bNumConfigurations 1
Device Status: 0x0001
Self Powered


Now, the way I see it, Apple's only choices, if they want to go that route (again) are to check the Manfuacturer or Product ID. If they check the Manufacturer ID, that's easy enough for Palm (or a homebrew developer) to change. The Product ID might be more problematic for Palm to change, but it's a more problematic check for iTunes to run.

But the point is, if they keep going down this road, Apple will have to do constant updates, and their updates will be much harder to do (because they have more devices to account for) than the Palm updates.

Seems like checkmate to me, except Apple hasn't apparently recognized it yet.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
bhartman34 @ 9/10/2009 1:16:01 PM # Q
Tim_Carroll wrote:
It's Palm's fault that Apple are deliberately crippling iTunes not to sync with other devices?

Nope. Apple are faced with a clear choice in regards to Palm's Media Sync:

(1) Ignore it, and make iTunes users happy.

(2) Deliberately break it, and make Apple happy.

Yes, (1) would make Palm happy too. The question is: what's more important to Apple? Screwing Palm, or pleasing their customers?

We have our answer.

I think you're oversimplifying the matter here. Ending the non-Apple device lockout would make a lot of non-Apple hardware users happy, obviously, but "iTunes users", in general, mostly encompasses people who use Apple devices. Sure, there are people such as Pre users who are not tied to iPhones/iPods for content, but that's a relatively small percentage of the user base. The majority of their customers wouldn't care or notice if support for other devices went away.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own custo
jca666us @ 9/10/2009 5:44:08 PM # Q
>"iTunes users", in general, mostly encompasses people who use Apple
>devices. Sure, there are people such as Pre users who are not tied to
>iPhones/iPods for content, but that's a relatively small percentage of the user
>base.

Perfectly stated!

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
Tim_Carroll @ 9/10/2009 5:50:08 PM # Q
bhartman34:
I think you're oversimplifying the matter here. Ending the non-Apple device lockout would make a lot of non-Apple hardware users happy, obviously, but "iTunes users", in general, mostly encompasses people who use Apple devices. Sure, there are people such as Pre users who are not tied to iPhones/iPods for content, but that's a relatively small percentage of the user base. The majority of their customers wouldn't care or notice if support for other devices went away.

The whole iTunes-users-are-iPod-users thing is part of the problem. iPods have a near-monopoly on the digital music player market, and by extension iTunes has also become incredibly popular. I find it somewhat sleazy that in order to get full functionality out of the software - and to enjoy the proper experience of shopping at one of the world's biggest music retailers - you have to buy into the hardware ecosystem as well.

Such bundling tactics are what people used to blast Microsoft for, when they tied Windows to IE. The situation is not exactly analagous to the iPod-iTunes thing, but it's close enough to leave a sour taste in my mouth.

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own custo
ChiA @ 9/13/2009 6:39:25 AM # Q
The idea that someone might want to use their software and shop at their well-stocked store but not use their hardware really doesn't compute with them, does it?

You can download the tracks from the iTunes Music Store and use it on any device.

I don't moan that I can't use Internet Explorer to burn DVDs or Powerpoint to watch my bids on eBay so why should people moan about not using iTunes with the Pre? Steve Jobs has stated before that iTunes was there primarily to sell iPods etc.

Yet you still have the choice of using music downloaded from the store on any device, not just an iPod. You still have the choice of being able to use any other suitable program to sync this music with a non-Apple media player.

I see Palm's behaviour tantamount to crashing through the supermarket roof to do your shopping because it's closed and you can't get through the front door.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein

RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
LiveFaith @ 9/13/2009 9:21:44 PM # Q
I agree with Tim on this one. Way to go Palm for the backdoor hack of iTunes. Reminds me of the game changing job that Compaq did waaaaaaay back in the day by backward engineering the IBM BIOS for PCs. If you think PCs are bad now, imagine a the PC World 25 years later ALL still running on IBM proprietary gougeware. Apple makes good products, but they are sending a nasty elitist message to consumers.
The fact is Palm will just keep patching this till Apple runs out of fields. More importantly, I doubt more than a handful other than us geeks really knows or cares.
Pat Horne
RE: Once again, Apple raises the middle finger to their own customers
CFreymarc @ 9/16/2009 12:31:22 AM # Q
Love to see Palm post their engineering outsouce budget publicly, that would tell a lot about this.
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OT: Sprint's unlimited calling, data, text, and MMS for $70?

Gekko @ 9/9/2009 8:48:36 PM # Q
RE: OT: Sprint's unlimited calling, data, text, and MMS for $70?
DarthRepublican @ 9/10/2009 11:02:23 AM # Q
Sweet! I'm running low on minutes under Sprint's 450 minute plan.
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
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I <3 Devin Coldewey

Tim_Carroll @ 9/10/2009 7:49:49 AM # Q
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/09/somebody-has-to-say-it-its-time-for-itunes-lite/

Beautifully encapsulates everything I hate about iTunes.

RE: I <3 Devin Coldewey
hkklife @ 9/10/2009 2:21:28 PM # Q
Great piece. Thanks for the link!


iTunes (especially under Windows) sucks.

Palm's abandonment of desktop-resident sync/connectivity components sucks but that's how it's going to be from here on.

Palm's continued attempts to slip the Pre into the iPod/iTunes ecosystem also suck.


Palm needs to just drop the iTunes matter entirely like they did with Graffiti 1 and pretend it never existed. They're good at doing that sort of thing. Palm should be devoting their precious resources & manpower to improving WebOS and churning out new hardware, not playing this pitiful game of cat & mouse. If nothing else, shell out a few $ to have a Palm co-branded version of WinAmp or similar included with their new WebOS devices for those users who don't want to drag & drop.

iPhone OS 3.x aside, Apple's had a very ho-hum year but I think they are ramping up for a big tablet-centric 2010 and/or dropping the AT&T exclusivity.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

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