OS 5 Handhelds to Need Half the Power of PPC Equivalents

Posted By: Ed Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:34:26 PM

Handhelds running Palm OS 5 will be available later this summer. These will run processors based on designs from ARM Holdings, rather than the familiar 68K Dragonball family. Handhelds running the Pocket PC OS will use some of the same processors.

The new Palm OS handhelds will be much faster than current ones but there has been some concern if this will come at the expense of battery life. A Motorola spokesperson told ZDnet UK that the Palm OS 5 handhelds will use roughly half the power as Pocket PC handhelds running the same hardware.

"It's the difference between taking technology derived from a PC and making it more energy efficient, and something that's designed from scratch to treat power as a scarce resource. There's a lot you can do when you don't have a huge operating system footprint to deal with," said Kyle Harper, business manager for Motorola's Wireless and Baseband Systems Group.

These battery saving won't come at the expense of features, either. At this week's PalmSource developer conference in London, Motorola is demonstrating a real-time MPEG video encoder-decoder and small video camera running on Palm OS 5 and a DragonBall MX1.

The DragonBall MX1, the first ARM core-based DragonBall microprocessor, offers speeds up to 200 MHz.

While Palm Inc. has chosen processors from Texas Instruments to power its OS 5 handhelds, none of the other Palm OS licencees have announced who will supply their chips. Intel also makes ARM-based chips that could be in OS 5 devices.

Thanks to montyburns for the tip. -Ed

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Cool

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:12:37 PM #
Will get one if battery life is not compromised. Seriously battery life will remain an advantage over PPC. My m515 can last a whole day (a whole 2-3 weeks on standby), my friend's iPaq can't even last 2 days on standby...
RE: Cool
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 12:22:03 AM #
My Toshiba e310 is just as thin as your m515 and can last as long too. You really oughta drop the battery life argument.
RE: Cool
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 12:29:15 AM #
If your e310 was really as cool as you say it is, you wouldn't feel the need to come to Palm sites and post troll messages. Do you think that if you tell enough people how great your handheld is, you'll start to believe it?

If you don't use a Palm, why are you here? Probably because you know you spent a lot of money to back the wrong horse and are wondering what you are missing out on. Kind of sad, really.

RE: Cool
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 12:33:37 AM #
well... I have to agree with you, actually I like the new Toshiba, not the e310, but the 510 instead. Hopefully they will released it for the consumer market soon.
RE: Cool
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 8:49:39 AM #
Actually we DO benefit from comparisions with Palm and non-Palm products so lets not go beating each other up - ok?
RE: Cool
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 10:48:52 AM #
I could care less if a PPC lasts as long as a Palm. I would never get one because I hate the software. Everything takes me less steps to do on a Palm, and that's what matters most to me. To have hardware that will now match the capabilities of the PPC makes them all that much better.
RE: Cool
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 1:10:50 PM #
does it really?
RE: Cool
Altema @ 5/23/2002 10:23:11 PM #
"My Toshiba e310 is just as thin as your m515 and can last as long too."

The original poster may have something wrong with his M515 if it drains in one day. He must be referring to making it through the day without a significant change in battery level. Standby time should be a couple of months. The e310 has a claimed maximum battery life of 10 hours, or 20 days at 30 minutes per day. The M515 will do between 24 and 28 days, which is better than Palm advertised (7 days, or 3.5 hours continous). The most I've gotten is 31 days before the first low battery warning, but that included a lunchtime demo session with the sidelight on max for quite a while.

The battery life is improving on the PPC side thanks to improved power management, but I think most people still will have an issue with the OS even if the battery life were identical. Being powerful is not an advantage when combined with being cumbersome. Typing this post on my wife's laptop is a reminder of that... because I have to make constant corrections due to stiff keys from lack of use. I also have to reboot it a couple times a month to keep Windows running properly, even though it sits there idle most of the time. The laptop is several times more powerful than any Palm in many respects, but it just sits there since she got her M505.

RE: Cool
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 1:17:00 AM #
huh?

I have to turn of my car engine every other hour, does it mean horse is better mode of transportation since it's always in "ON" state?

RE: Cool
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 9:24:38 AM #
"My Toshiba e310 is just as thin as your m515 and can last as long too."

Oh, yeah? Well my handheld can beat up your handheld.... =)

Way to go

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:24:06 PM #
" However, less costly Palms will still be using today's hardware for some time yet, since the current 68000 series DragonBall is expected to coexist with the ARM processors for about two years, according to industry observers.

Devices running the current Palm OS will also be able to opt for the DragonBall Super VZ, which Motorola calls a "stopgap" chip between the 68000 and the MX1. Sony's Clie PEG-NR70V, launching in the UK early next month, is the first to use the Super VZ, allowing it to offer a built-in camera and audio and video playback. " ZDNET article

Wow...the current 33Mhz VZ PDAs are all outdated...but to those Sony trolls who keep promoting their NRs because of SVZ...its already called 'low-cost' PDAs.

RE: Way to go
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 8:50:11 PM #
Sony will be the first to use Dragonball MX1. Palm will use TI chip. PDA is outdated every 3 months as we all know. Nothing new in electronics, is always outdated even in the next day. SO you SHUT UP!
Sony works with Palm on multimedia
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 9:39:12 AM #
Sony works with Palm on multimedia
12:50 Wednesday 22nd May 2002
Matthew Broersma
The Clie handheld maker is hoping to build its multimedia technology into Palm's next operating system, potentially creating an early market for Palm OS entertainment applications
Sony says it is working with PalmSource, which handles Palm OS development, on integrating the features from its high-end range of handheld computers into the next Palm operating system.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2110661,00.html


Very interesting...

Strider_mt2k @ 5/22/2002 5:23:39 PM #
If ARM based processors become common in handhelds, that means the existing low Mhz hardware could filter into more toys, consumer goods, and whatnot. We've already seen that Palm OS compatible watch, maybe it's just the beginning?


Will...?

Midknyte @ 5/22/2002 5:33:01 PM #
Will OS5 allow for large/file storage options like microdrives?

RE: Will...?
crustyedgeofinnovation @ 5/22/2002 5:36:23 PM #
the way I see it, with OS 5, the faster processors will allow for almost any extra component which licencees choose to put. Who would have thought that a dragonball could have a camera and mp3 player. True, the vz is at 66Mhz, but this goes to show that by increasing speed, a myriad new components become viable. By raising the speed, developers have much more space to play with extra gadgets.

RE: Will...?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 7:13:07 PM #
Microdrives? Not if you are worried about battery life.

:P

RE: Will...?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 7:45:55 PM #
"Will OS5 allow for large/file storage options like microdrives?"

OS 3.5 does already. Just get a HandEra 330, or a Trgpro.

http://www.handera.com/accessories/ibmstorage.asp

RE: Will...? screw Handera
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 11:27:05 PM #
Handera? They cant get AutoCard out of Beta, They are shipping with OS3.5 and can't get developers to write software that takes advantage of any of the advanced features of the Handera 300. They are dead meat in the water. I don't think their website is even up anymore.
RE: Will...?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 11:53:27 PM #
"Handera? They cant get AutoCard out of Beta, They are shipping with OS3.5 and can't get developers to write software that takes advantage of any of the advanced features of the Handera 300. They are dead meat in the water. I don't think their website is even up anymore."


Do you even bother to type the website in before you spout such nonsense. Here let me lead you by the hand to their website, which is up and running just fine. (And before you ask, no I do not use one, but they are a fine company)

http://www.handera.com


RE: Will...?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 5:12:38 AM #
HandEra's website is just fine. Recently updated to show even more supported hardware expansions. Lots of software supports its features with more appearing every day. How else are you going to use a Microdrive without a CF slot?

RE: Will...?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 9:27:40 AM #
"Handera? They cant get AutoCard out of Beta, They are shipping with OS3.5 and can't get developers to write software that takes advantage of any of the advanced features of the Handera 300. They are dead meat in the water. I don't think their website is even up anymore."

Sheesh! The ignorance. Do you work hard to be such a misinformed troglodyte?

Stop putting out bad information and leading folks away from what may be a good option for their needs.

Too little too late...

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:35:08 PM #
The Pocket PC with Xscale processor with be twice as quick, consume less power and there will be software for it, unlike what Palm has planned.
RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:38:27 PM #
You're 0 for 3 in your post:

"Pocket PC with Xscale processor with [sic] be":

- "twice as quick"
No, they will have CPUs that go as high as 400 MHz, but that doesn't mean PPC at 400 MHz will be twice as fast as Palm at 200 MHz. Since a 33 MHz Palm is as quick as a 200+ MHz PPC, we pretty much know that wont be the case for the ARM-based apps. Emulated apps may run more slowly, but no one knows yet. Also, MHz rating between different CPUs aren't the same and not all PPCs will run at 400 MHz.

- "consume less power"
This news item directly contradicts that. If you're claiming it's false, please cite your source.

- "there will be software for it, unlike what Palm has planned."
Almost all PalmOS4 software will run under OS5. PPC didn't offer such a path when they moved to the StrongARM... however, it appears there won't be the same problem during their StrongARM > X-scale switch. Also, since there's not much software for PPC (which especially lacks freeware), you're point is doubly-moot.

Go away you lying, ignorant, troll.

RE: Too little too late...
crustyedgeofinnovation @ 5/22/2002 5:42:37 PM #
just because a PPC runs at 400mhz and a Palm runs at 200Mhz, doesn't mean that the PPC is faster. Given Palm OS compact architecture, the Mhz levels are not comparable. My question is, how are the Xscale and ARM processors related. Are they the same or can the OS be ported to Xscale too, or are they not alike? This is probably a novice question.

RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:43:15 PM #
Wow, this really struck a nerve with some die-hard PPC fanatic. It made him cough up all the PPC propaganda he can think of in one short sentance.

(1) The PPC is bloated and slow now on high speed processors. Switching to slightly faster processors isn't going to make it any better.

(2) This article, which you probably didn't bother to read, says that OS 5 handhelds will use half the power of PPC ones with the same chip.

(3) This one really shows that you have no clue what you talking about. OS 5 will be able to run at least 80% of the 13,000 Palm OS apps. Compare that to the couple dozen PPC apps out there.

RE: Too little too late...
sandbuck @ 5/22/2002 5:43:39 PM #
"My ARM's not chopped off! It's just a flesh wound!"

- Monty P

RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:43:52 PM #
You clearly haven't read anything that's been printed. Almost all of the existing palm software will continue to run. The article you're responding to clearly states that power consumption will be better on the palm devices than the PPC.
RE: Too little too late...
sandbuck @ 5/22/2002 5:50:54 PM #
Here's a little dose of TROLL repellant:

"At PalmSource, Motorola demonstrated a real-time MPEG video encoder-decoder and small video camera running on Palm OS 5 and a DragonBall MX1. Harper said a similar application running on a Pocket PC would require a processor running about twice as fast as current 206MHz StrongARM chips, because of operating system overheads. "

A little salt for those flesh wounds....

RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:51:17 PM #
My 33Mhz m515 is faster than a 206Mhz PPC in real-time because the OS is not as bloated as the PPC OS...So what makes you think a 200Mhz PalmOS will be slower than your 400Mhz. Besides Palm has chosen TI (who could offer speeds higher than 200Mhz). Other licensees has yet to pick any processors yet and they could even get the X-Scale processors. Imagine a 400Mhz PalmOS vs a 400Mhz PPC...
RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:54:18 PM #
crustyedgeofinnovation, The XScale is under the palmOS 5 ready program, which means, any licensees could use the XScale processor. I personally do not wish any licensees to use an XScale processor (because 1. Its Intel) but if it shuts up PPC users who always uses Mhz speed to critise us, then so be it.
RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:56:12 PM #
"The Pocket PC with Xscale processor with be twice as quick, consume less power and there will be software for it, unlike what Palm has planned."

Have you been reading up on Pocket PC? There are a whole lot of Jornada owners who are extremely pissed right now and many owners of Pocket PC's other licencees are also wondering how much longer there handhelds will be supported. MS et al have put a lot of money into these products and have made no money back.

Microsot has already said that their .net technology is what they will focus on next. Do you really think they will continue trying to support the failing PPC and Xbox?

RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 6:07:05 PM #
M$ will pull the plug on PPC and X-Box and will release a new OS and a new console, because they have the $$$ to do it. M$ can afford to lose money, its what they want, if they have it their way, they could force manufacturers to give out PPC for free and gain control on the PDA market. Once PalmOS dies out, they can charge anything they want. The good thing is they do not produce the hardware themselves hence we are still seeing expensive PPC products. The X-Box is a different story, since they are the manufacturers (they are using nVidia's and Intel's tech in it) they can reduce the price to whatever point they want. The X-Box is failing, in Japan it is being outsold by the discontinued Dreamcast. Like their PPC counterpart, X-Box is big, heavy and bloated.
RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 6:11:27 PM #
.net will fail, it might work for enterprise customers, but will fail for us consumers...or atleast I hope they do fail.
RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 6:37:46 PM #
- both are Arm compatible/licensee

- clock for clock, might be comparable on those instruction. (leave out the DSP on Omap or the media ccelerator in Xscale)

-OS 5.0 will have big fat PACE emulator runnning on top of the native OS just so it can behave like 68k.

- Conclusion, half the mHz plus fat emulator versus PPC rewrite for Xscale running at 400mHz. (you get the picture which one will run faster)

RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 6:55:07 PM #
PACE is there to emulate current programs written on OS 4 API, I am sure developers will update their programs to run on native Palm OS 5 API. Not to mention, MX1 will be available at first up to 200Mhz, do not forget MX2 and not to mention - licensees CAN USE XScale processors.
RE: Too little too late...
Token User @ 5/22/2002 7:36:59 PM #
... not to mention that PACE is a 80k stub that provided instruction translation (basically intercepting instruction calls and redirecting them to the arm equiv). Not exactly like running POSE on a device. PPC users have got to get a grip on reality.

With PalmOS compiled for an ARM CPU, how long will it be before we see a HP iPaq running PalmOS? Will it ever happen?

RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 9:29:02 PM #
While I don't agree with that persons post. I'd be mad too if my only upgrade path was this crappy and all my apps didn't work.

The only good Palms out there are when Sony and TRG add things that the Pocket PC has built in, one off hacks are all that Palm can hope for. It'll be too little and too late by the time Palm gets to the party. It's too bad.

RE: Too little too late...
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 10:13:14 PM #
" M$ will pull the plug on PPC and X-Box and will release a new OS and a new console, because they have the $$$ to do it. M$ can afford to lose money, its what they want, if they have it their way, they could force manufacturers to give out PPC for free and gain control on the PDA market. Once PalmOS dies out, they can charge anything they want. The good thing is they do not produce the hardware themselves hence we are still seeing expensive PPC products. The X-Box is a different story, since they are the manufacturers (they are using nVidia's and Intel's tech in it) they can reduce the price to whatever point they want. The X-Box is failing"

Take a close look at what MS is planning for .net. MS has already said they are willing to bet the bank on .net. Even MS can't keep pissing away money on MSN internet service, XBOX and PPC development. They are losing on all three fronts and need to focus on their next .net phase to ensure continued domination. Linux hackers have already taken steps to undermine .net's prescence. MS will eventually need to concentrate on .net and this will lead to a crappier PPC

P.S. MS is losing a lot of money and prestige with the Xbox. Sony and Nintendo are making money on these units while MS is losing a sizable amount of money on every unit sold. It is true that Jim Technophile will by the next version of PPC to come out Joe Homegamer won't touch Xbox2. Ask Sega about this.

RE: Too little too late...
bcombee @ 5/23/2002 12:01:33 AM #
PACE is not big and fat. From what I've heard, the 68K instruction emulation core is written directly in ARM assembly and tuned to fit into the ARM core's instruction cache.

When PalmSource was benchmarking PACE apps, they found that they usually ran 3-4 times faster on a 75MHz ARM device versus a 33Mhz 68K device. On an app that had lots of computation and few OS calls, the 75MHz ARM emulating the 33Mhz 68K was running at about 60% of the real speed. In some graphics intensive apps that make lots of OS calls, the app running in PACE was over 30 times faster.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

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