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IDC: Handheld Market Declines 3rd Consecutive Quarter

The worldwide market for handheld devices experienced its third successive quarter of year-over-year decline in the third quarter of 2004 according to IDC's latest report. Despite strong shipments from the top five vendors, the market continued to shrink due to a drop in shipments from market leader palmOne and the ongoing withdrawal of Sony.

According to IDC's Worldwide Handheld QView, device shipments decreased 4.6% sequentially and 8.7% year over year in 3Q04 to 2.1 million units.

Consolidation in the worldwide handheld device market continues with the exit of top vendors Sony and Toshiba from international competition nearly complete. Meanwhile, lower barriers to entry are enabling companies with established core competencies in electronics design and manufacturing to enter the market and quickly gain share, although this share comes at the expense of margins in the face of a flat or slightly shrinking market. As a result, success in the handheld market is increasingly equated with the ability to develop solutions that extend the handheld device into markets beyond core personal information management (PIM) functionality.

Vendor Highlights:

  • palmOne - Market leader palmOne experienced a decline in shipments of 12.7% year over year and 20.3% sequentially, bringing the company's share down 6.9% points to 34.7%. The company expects stronger handheld growth in the next quarter, given palmOne's typically strong sales during the holiday season.
  • Hewlett-Packard - Thanks to a refreshed lineup across both its business and consumer portfolio, HP's shipments increased 11.7% year over year and 22.4% sequentially. This boost brought HP to within 5 percentage points of market leader palmOne, an increase of 6.7% from the second quarter.
  • Dell - Continued sales of the x30 helped Dell to increase 44% year over year and 29.7% sequentially, bringing Dell's market share up 2.3% to 8.9% of the worldwide handheld device market. With the recent release of the x50 and the company's strong direct-sales model, Dell looks well positioned for the fourth quarter of 2004.
  • MiTAC - Similar to Medion before it, MiTAC has entered the top 5 after a relatively short time in the handheld device market thanks to a focus on quality low-cost handheld devices. MiTAC increased its shipments 1007.9% year over year and 210% sequentially, giving the company a 3.2% market share.
  • Sony - As was to be expected from the company's decision earlier in the year to withdraw from all markets except for Japan, Sony's shipments declined 81.5% year over year and 74.8% sequentially. This decrease brought Sony's market share down 5.8% to 2.1%.

Top 5 Vendors, Worldwide Handheld Device Shipments and Market Share,
3Q 2004 (Preliminary)

Rank       Vendor             3Q 2004 Shipments   3Q 2004 Market Share
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1          palmOne                   736,481                     34.7%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2          Hewlett-Packard           648,975                     30.6%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
3          Dell                      188,200                      8.9%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
4          MiTAC                      68,500                      3.2%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5          Sony                       44,192                      2.1%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
           Other                     436,644                     20.6%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
           Total                   2,122,992                    100.0%
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: IDC, October 27, 2004

Handheld devices do not include telephony but may include wireless capabilities that enable Internet access and text communication. These devices feature evolved operating systems or application environments, such as Palm OS, Pocket PC, Windows CE, Handheld PC 2000, Linux or proprietary solutions and have the ability to download and run applications and store user data beyond their required PIM capabilities.

"In the face of intense competition from converged mobile devices capable of performing basic personal information management tasks, the worldwide handheld device market continues to struggle to evolve beyond its primary role as a PIM device," said David Linsalata, analyst in IDC's Mobile Devices program. "It is crucial that vendors push handheld devices into new market segments through the integration of existing technology such as GPS bundles in order to energize this market and return it to a growth path."

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Bosco vs. Dell

Gekko @ 10/27/2004 1:13:07 PM #

>"Dell - Continued sales of the x30 helped Dell to increase 44% year over year and 29.7% sequentially, bringing Dell's market share up 2.3% to 8.9% of the worldwide handheld device market. With the recent release of the x50 and the company's strong direct-sales model, Dell looks well positioned for the fourth quarter of 2004."

Hey Bosco - are Dell PDA's still going to fail miserably as you predicted?



RE: Bosco vs. Dell
abosco @ 10/27/2004 3:00:51 PM #
If they were sold in retail channels in addition to their "direct" approach, their marketshare would be up to 20% because their products are that good. Do you think Mr. Dell thinks his PDA line is a flying success?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637
RE: Bosco vs. Dell
Gekko @ 10/27/2004 3:12:21 PM #

>"Do you think Mr. Dell thinks his PDA line is a flying success?"

Yes. Any time the overall market decreases yet you can increase your market share by such a dramatic amount, it's a success. Michael Dell is not age 39 and worth $14 BILLION by being dumb. Remember the Dell mantra of "DISDAIN INVENTORY". It's BECAUSE OF (not DESPITE) the ONLINE-ONLY DIRECT sales channel that Dell can sell feature-rich Axim's SO CHEAP and why they're such a success. Keep invetory low and cut out the middle-man and SELL DIRECT! Many companies have been "DELL-ed" out of business. Is PalmOne/PalmSource Next?

PalmSource CEO: Dell doesn't worry us
Published: November 11, 2002, 5:16 PM PST
By Tony Hallett
Special to CNET News.com

LONDON--The head of PalmSource, the software arm of Palm, has spoken out against a Wintel-based clone model for handheld devices, but he admitted Dell Computer's imminent entry into that market will "have an impact."

PalmSource CEO David Nagel was in London to promote the Palm OS 5 operating system for mobile devices. "Dell certainly will have an impact in the handheld computing market...but mainly because of their distribution and sales (expertise). They will bring Microsoft Pocket PC pricing closer to that of Palm (OS-based devices), but even Dell can't close that gap completely."

http://news.com.com/PalmSource+CEO+Dell+doesnt+worry+us/2100-1040_3-965338.html



RE: Bosco vs. Dell
Gekko @ 10/27/2004 3:24:36 PM #

>Nagel: "They (Dell) will bring Microsoft Pocket PC pricing closer to that of Palm (OS-based devices), but even Dell can't close that gap completely."

Does anyone think Dell has closed the pricing gap?

Boy, that Nagel is something else.



RE: Bosco vs. Dell
abosco @ 10/27/2004 4:38:14 PM #
>>Keep invetory low and cut out the middle-man and SELL DIRECT!

And outsource your "Number one" tech support to India so your customers can't understand what they're trying to say when you want a question answered. Great service, totally satisfied here...

Why do you insist on having your finger planted so deeply up Mr. Dell's ass? The strategy worked so well with everything else because ridding the retail distribution destroyed a lot of the pricing, but this doesn't happen with PDA's. If a vendor sold exact duplicates of Dell's products and placed them in the retail channel, they would sell better because there is more access to them, and PDA's are still a very personal item.

Dell isn't dominating the PDA market yet, and even with their superior products, they still haven't cracked 10%. Look at it that way instead.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637

RE: Bosco vs. Dell
Gekko @ 10/27/2004 5:25:15 PM #

Numbers don't lie. The trend is clear, Palm is screwed.



RE: Bosco vs. Dell
freelunch @ 10/27/2004 6:12:39 PM #
Palm is going down horribly, they've already been eclipsed by PPC in terms of sales and its going to get worse. Quite sad really - when I purchased my T3 last year Palm looked so strong in the PDA market.

I still remember those ****y ads that boasted "Simple is what you call the competition when you have only 15% of the market share." Too bad those words came back to bite palm in the ass.

And oh yeah, outsourcing tech support to India? Ahem Palm's guilty of this.

My brother got his Axim X3i exhanged under warranty in a week and he did get native English speakers to handle the problem (we're in Canada though). Dell was nice enough to send along a refurb unit first before giving a postage paid parcel to send the damaged Axim back.

Currently Using: Palm Tungsten T3 and Motorola MPx200 Smartphone with WM2003

RE: Bosco vs. Dell
Gekko @ 10/28/2004 10:46:36 AM #

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3



RE: Bosco vs. Dell
Gekko @ 10/28/2004 10:47:39 AM #

DELL - DIRECT FROM DELL

Dell-Isms

Between 1984-87, Michael Dell managed to take his company from a $1,000 hobby to a $160 million business. In 1999, it was worth $18 billion and had experienced a 36,000 percent growth. Dell is a "Good to Great" company. Michael Dell exhibits the type of leadership that a "Good to Great" company should have.

Dell's Big Picture:
1. Build a business on what people want instead of what you think they want:
A. Listen to the customer.
B. Respond to the customer.
C. Deliver what they want.
2. Success is a matter of learning and identifying core strengths.
3. Every new growth opportunity has a level of risk.
4. Try to identify potential problems early and fix them.
5. Pace investment to match progress.
6. If there is a way to get something done more quickly and easily, try it.
7. Eliminate the middle man.
8. Opportunity is part emersion and part instinct.

Dell's Competitive Strategies:
1. Faster speed to market.
2. Superior customer service.
3. Commitment to produce high quality and high performance product.
4. Rapid entry to the internet. The PC was going to be the business choice for the future.
5. Surround yourself with smart advisors. If you hire good people they will bring other good people to the organization.
6. Dell's Two Golden Rules:
A. Disdain inventory.
B. Always listen to the customer.
7. Always sell direct.
8. Build your infrastructure as you grow. Slow and steady growth with a focus on liquidity.
9. Communication is the most important tool in recovering from mistakes.
10. Interject functional excellence and maintain accountability.
11. Segment by customer. Segmentation offers the solution to rapid growth.
12. Maximize strengths to improve profit.
13. The quality of information is proportional to the amount inventory. Focus on getting quality information and decreasing inventory.
14. Information Technology must reduce obstacles to the origin and flow of information.
15. Achieve velocity by selecting the minimum number of parts that will cover the largest portion of the market sector.

Dell's view on company culture:
1. Mobilize around a common goal.
2. Invest in long term goals
3. Don't leave the talent search to human resources.
4. Cultivate commitment to personal growth.
5. Get involved.

Dell's list of Don'ts:
1. Don't be satisfied.
2. Don't waste precious resources.
3. Don't play hard to get.
4. Marry high tech and high touch.
5. Don't forget that customers have different fears, questions, and sensitivities.

Dell's beliefs about the customer:
1. See the big picture.
2. Run with suggestions from the customer.
3. Always think bottom line (find ways to help the customer cut costs).
4. Make yourself valuable to the customer.
5. Be a student.

Dell's guidelines for communication:
1. Don't underestimate the value of information.
2. Communicate directly with the customer.
3. Work toward increasing demand verses supply.
4. Think real time.
5. R&D must deliver value-added stuff for the customer.
6. Get online and learn from the customer.
7. Focus on the customer and not the competition.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0887309151/qid=1096163127/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0458069-6297602?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


RE: Bosco vs. Dell
hyperdaz @ 10/28/2004 1:29:54 PM #
Its interesting looking at all thats been written...

I have been a dell customer for over five years not my choice due to company policy etc..

But I would say their Customer Services used to be non-exsistant (from a uk point of view).. Their lower end products are almost worthless... But their higher end is getting stronger and stronger...

They way Dell makes money out of computers is sell P4 what ever top of the line is for slightly lower then compertition but leave that product at that price for longer then the market... i.e. its worth 1000.00 today six months time its still around 1000.00 for that model and as its simpler for companies to by x amount of the same product then Dell makes more per unit after the six months then when they sold it at a slightly reduced price...

PDAs
The desings and quality has improved which is always a +

I almost think Palm need another line of PDAs or put it another way the same PDA with different spec... to please different people.. all realised at the same time like Dell do...

Customers are different... What a company want and want indiviguals want maybe different products...

I think splitting PalmOne and PalmSource is a problem (as they get into a blamming war) it was needed as Palm were trying to hold onto the crown as well as have others produce palm handhelds.. Turning agenst/down companies like Acer etc forced them to become PPC's only... which would hurt Palm..

I wonder how hard it could be today to get a company in china to produce a handheld product and be able to place palmOS and be directly compertition with PalmOnes... (its all outsourced these days anyway)...

I am guessing not easy still.. which is a shame as PalmOne need compertition for years they have not been compeating with PPC.. So they are still looking in different directions...

In other words PalmOne - PalmSource get your heads out of the sand and do some solid work....

IF YOUR LEFT BEHIND IN THE PDA MARKET YOUR BE LEFT BEHIND IN THE SMARTPHONE MARKET...

To warm Gekko's feckless heart
mikecane @ 10/28/2004 7:06:14 PM #
RE: Bosco vs. Dell
hyperdaz @ 10/28/2004 8:06:15 PM #
mikecane...

Thats an interesting read... I have an number of comments to make about it though...

one it does not *from the customer perspective* increase the quality of a product... Dells Older dimentions (white 4100 etc) had a higher build quality and made from better list of parts then their newer black dimentions which suffer from cheap plastic covers clips etc and would easily fall off or break.

The PDA market is a differnt market than the desktop first most / all PDAs are outsources as far as I know.
second if its going to be in my pocket 365 days a year I dont want cheap plastic(s) or persoanlly plastics at all.

I would also like to mention how I personally dislike this dictactorship style of running companies. It sounds as if the workers inside this dell plant are timed when they need to go to the toilet if they spent an extra minite helping someone after an accident (fell down the stairs) they would get the sack for wasting time.



RE: Bosco vs. Dell
mikecane @ 10/30/2004 10:14:32 AM #
Toilet? They use catheters, I'm sure.

Made in USA vs Made in... Somewhere Else
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/30/2004 5:07:22 PM #
I would also like to mention how I personally dislike this dictactorship style of running companies. It sounds as if the workers inside this dell plant are timed when they need to go to the toilet if they spent an extra minite helping someone after an accident (fell down the stairs) they would get the sack for wasting time.

At least Dell has thus far resisted the temptation to send production completely out to China and its workers earning $5/day. (Dell's China-made computers are pure c r a p.) Given how many hundreds of thousands of American jobs have been outsourced to India, China, Mexico, etc, I think as Americans we shouldn't be protesting too loudly at Dell's innovative efforts to compete on the world stage. At the rate things are going, pretty soon there will be ZERO manufacturing jobs left in the USA. Between unions too stupid, antagonistic and greedy to know when to quit grabbing for a bigger slice of the pie + escalating health care and benefit costs, it almost doesn't make sense for companies to manufacture goods in the USA anymore. To attack one of the few major employers still left here seems rather shortsighted.

No doubt you're a union employee that buys only China-made goods from Walmart. And fails to see the irony.

;-O




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bosco vs. Dell
Gekko @ 11/3/2004 12:46:14 AM #

Here you go, Bosco:

MM: Is there any type of consumer product that you think doesn't sell direct? You know, there are many who say people need to see large-screen TVs before buying them. Do you think anything doesn't work through the direct model?

MD (Michael Dell): Well, you've got to kind of, first of all, step back and think about the scope of our business. We have a $1.7 billion external storage business, which is largely storage area networks, SANs, Dell EMC. These are, you know, $100,000-plus things. Now, obviously you don't have a lot of consumers coming home saying, "Yeah, send me one of those. We'll pop it under the tree."

MM: That's, a different kind of direct selling, though.

MD: So you're talking about with the consumers?

MM: I'm more talking about with the consumers.

MD: Well, I think it's an interesting question. Certainly our experience has been that when you create trust with customers and customers know your product because they read about it in PC Magazine, because they see your product, because you have the right specifications, the right ingredients.

Printing is a good example. A lot of people said, well, you can't sell printers - people have to see them. We've sold way more printers than we thought we were going to - a million printers. I mean, we have 12 percent of the all-in-one market in the U.S. in like six months. You and I both know that we sort of extrapolate wherever we are today versus two or three years from now. So, I think there's a lot of room there.

Take monitors. "Oh, monitors, I've got to see the product." Well, you look at LCD monitors, we have 18 percent share. Number two is Samsung - 10 percent share. So I'm pretty convinced we can push it pretty hard. Now we have to do a lot in terms of making sure we get the influencers, PC Magazine readers, get customers online [and have] 3D views so they can spin it around. [We have to] have kiosks, trade shows - all those kinds of things.

Also value speaks a lot here. Look at the value chains in consumer electronics. They're really inefficient in terms of the dealers, the distributors, the cost structure. Take this 30-inch LCD that we just introduced for $3,299 - it's at a much, much better price than any product out there - certainly than any product with a brand people would recognize. And it has all the latest technology, all the latest features.

Let me kind of turn it around. What have we not been able to sell? Our business this year is going to be like $41.5 billion. Our software peripheral business, which includes things like printers, and not displays that go with systems, but after-market displays - it's on a $6 billion run rate. We're the biggest seller of that stuff.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0%2C1759%2C1501476%2C00.asp



PalmOS vs. WindowsMobile

Gekko @ 10/27/2004 1:16:37 PM #

I'd love to see world market share percentages of PalmOS vs. WindowsMobile devices. Without knowing what "Other" is, it looks like WindowsMobile may have taken the lead!

RE: PalmOS vs. WindowsMobile
statik @ 10/27/2004 3:30:31 PM #
I'd bet a lot of the Other is actually RIM. They seem to be the one to really watch out for now.
RE: PalmOS vs. WindowsMobile
Admin @ 10/27/2004 5:22:49 PM #
I doubt this list would include RIM. It is mainly "Handhelds" ie, not having telephony but could include wifi/bluetooth etc. I would speculate that other would contain, garmin iQue, Zodiac, other ppc manufacturers and then other non palm/ppc OS based devices.
RE: PalmOS vs. WindowsMobile
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/27/2004 10:33:39 PM #
http://www.thestreet.com/_tscs/tech/hardware/10175281_2.html


"The difference between IDC's numbers and Gartner's figures largely has to do with how the two research firms classify RIM's Blackberry device, IDC analyst David Linsalata said. While Gartner categorizes the Blackberry as a handheld, IDC considers it to be a "converged" device, and doesn't include its shipments in its PDA totals, Linsalata said."



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/27/2004 10:38:23 PM #
I get the feeling Palm is preparing to transition out of the PDA business. PPC shipments may now be surpassing PalmOS shipments for the first time. The pie is shrinking. I would rather see Palm put all of their R + D money into producing 4 well designed, well made devices than see them continue the charade of trying to field a full lineup.

Palm should simply release a low end Zire 31 type PDA for $100 - $150, a high end Tungsten 3 type PDA for $399, a low end smartphone for $150 - $200 (with contract) and a high end smartphone for $400 - $500 (with contract).

These numbers are quite revealing:
(see PIC article http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7240)

Top 5 Vendors, Worldwide Handheld Device Shipments and Market Share, 2Q 2004 (Preliminary)


Rank Vendor 2Q 2004 Shipments 2Q 2004 Market Share
1 palmOne 924,364 42.0%
2 Hewlett-Packard 530,239 24.1%
3 Sony 171,513 7.8%
4 Dell 145,071 6.6%
5 Medion 90,325 4.1%
Other 341,461 15.5%

Total 2,202,973 100.0%

Source: IDC, July 27, 2004


VS


Top 5 Vendors, Worldwide Handheld Device Shipments and Market Share,
3Q 2004 (Preliminary)

Rank Vendor 3Q 2004 Shipments 3Q 2004 Market Share
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 palmOne 736,481 34.7%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Hewlett-Packard 648,975 30.6%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Dell 88,200 8.9%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
4 MiTAC 68,500 3.2%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Sony 44,192 2.1%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Other 436,644 20.6%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 2,122,992 100.0%
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Source: IDC, October 27, 2004




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
mikecane @ 10/28/2004 10:18:35 AM #
What if they do surrender?

And what would that mean to *you* anyway, Mr I've Got Twenty Seven CLIEs in My Bunker with All the Cans of Peas I Can Eat? (Let us all pray for botulism!)

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
hyperdaz @ 10/28/2004 1:56:22 PM #
IF YOUR LEFT BEHIND IN THE PDA MARKET YOUR BE LEFT BEHIND IN THE SMARTPHONE MARKET...

If you cant keep up with the PDA market how the earth you going to keep up with a faster changing market...

Compeating not only with Nokia, Sony-E and many many other strong Smart Phone Companies..

Psion, WinCe, Linux and PalmOS...

Palms products are too splattered all over the place... I.E. I would not purchase a PALM TW because it has OS4.1 and Dragonball VZ 33 Mhz.. I would not purchase the Zire72 because of the grafitti area.. and plastic casing..

The T3 would be nice if I could get the latest OS for it I am not purchasing a product today with an OS thats so out of date..

Sony Playstation is perfect example there been different versions of the PS and PS2 now in its third hardware reworking.. but still called PS2...

They could save money and make more profit on their handhelds then do.. Its total Madness

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/28/2004 9:56:46 PM #
What if they do surrender?

And what would that mean to *you* anyway, Mr I've Got Twenty Seven CLIEs in My Bunker with All the Cans of Peas I Can Eat? (Let us all pray for botulism!)


Mike Cane: NO PEAS FOR YOU! NOW GET OUT!

Palm is stretching itself too thin. They just don't have the ability to design + engineer a completely new PDA lineup every six months. But the competition isn't sitting still, so hardware expectations are now higher than what Palm can deliver.

Paring the lineup down to four models would allow them to regain the focus that they seem to have lost. With competition like the new VGA PPCs, Palm will quickly fall by the wayside if their hardware is felt to be second rate. And if Palm tries to trot out that "Zen of Palm" BS one more time they deserve to be laughed out of existence. PPC and PalmOS now compete on EXACTLY the same field: Multimedia, PIM and wireless connectivity are rightly expected by people buying PDAs on either platform.

By the way, it's only 10 CLIEs. And compared to your flimsy Tungsten E, I'm liking my UX50 and TH55 quite a lot, thanks. I'd suggested you get a TH55 before it was too late. HEED NOT MY WARNING, MIKE CANE. For when your Tungsten E c r a p s out on you, there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth. I personally don't care anymore if Palm can compete. I'm set for at least 5 years with my current stash of CLIEs and don't really need anything more from a PDA beyond what these two little gems offer. Admit it: you know you want to go back to Sony. Stop trying to fool yourself with those el cheapo Palms.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
mikecane @ 10/29/2004 7:35:29 AM #
The Zen of Palm exists. Have you *tried* the PPC PIMs?! Puhleeze! Even PI is a joke -- no, a VERY bad joke.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/30/2004 12:53:04 AM #
The Zen of Palm exists. Have you *tried* the PPC PIMs?! Puhleeze! Even PI is a joke -- no, a VERY bad joke

The "Zen of Palm" is a crutch Palm used/uses to rationalize the second rate hardware its OS has traditionally run on.

Realistically, the "Zen of Palm" boils down to the fact that with PalmOS, it takes only one or two taps to access most of the info you need. Put a tabbed launcher on PPC and you've already well on your way to "Zenning up" PPC. And if you can get a VGA PPC with Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, CF and SD slots, etc, etc for around the same price as the "T5", how many people will decide Zen is more important than features? Not many.

Knock PPC all you want, Mike, but it's getting to the point that hardware matters more than OS choice. With minimal effort, you can find several PPC apps that are adept at doing most of the things people need PDAs for. Your fanatical hatred of Microsoft has blinded you to the fact that PPC and PalmOS are more similar than different. Remember: most people haven't made any pledges of allegiance to PalmOS. They'll just use whatever OS that comes with their PDA and not even think twice about it.

By the way:

http://www.expansys-usa.com/product.asp?code=TH55

Worth EVERY penny the parasites at Expansys are gouging.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
mikecane @ 10/30/2004 10:13:03 AM #
>>>Put a tabbed launcher on PPC and you've already well on your way to "Zenning up" PPC

Give me a break. You have finally managed to fall even *beneath* my past low measures of you. You have obviously never used PPC. And I wonder now just HTF you "use" any PalmOS device.

The Zen of Palm = actually the BS of Palm
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/30/2004 2:08:36 PM #
Give me a break. You have finally managed to fall even *beneath* my past low measures of you. You have obviously never used PPC. And I wonder now just HTF you "use" any PalmOS device.


*sigh*

Mike, Mike, Mike. Do you really BELIEVE the fevered ravings that you post? I hope for your sake you're just trying to play the devil's advocate and stimulate a bit of discussion here. (Speaking of which, it's sad to see so few posts being made at PIC this year. Ryan needs to bring back his Ska/Blue Anon/Hoplites alter ego! ;-))

I've used Palms and WinCE/PPC devices since they were both released (i.e. a bit longer than you have) and I think I'm a lot more objecive than you are, Mike. I'm OS-agnostic, and if Satan himself released a better platform today I'd be using it this afternoon. (When is Billy releasing the new PPC OS, by the way?) Looking at PalmOS and PPC objectively, in my experience PalmOS is a more intuitive and simple-to-use OS. One or two clicks and I'm Where I want to go today. PPC makes you jump through a few hoops to get the same info. A minor inconvenience - noticeable mainly because I've used PalmOS for so long - but even this can be lessened with utilities. And PPC users who aren't familiar with PalmOS won't whine that PPC is a bit more cumbersome because they won't know any different. Can't miss what you never had.

Year after year you've posted inane rants attacking PPC and sometimes even PalmOS over the most trivial of features. Your current fixation on PalmOS lacking a Windows-style filesystem is the latest thing that has the more knowledgeable of us here shaking our heads, Mike. I've lost count how many times Aaron Ardiri and others have tried to explain to you that PalmOS doesn't NEED a Windows-style filesystem to do what most users want their Palms to do. Yet still you rant. Of course, you're entitled to say whatever you want as many times as you want, NO MATTER HOW OBVIOUSLY WRONG YOU ARE. Just remember: you don't know what you're talking about.

Feel free to post yet another irrational response here, Old Boy. You continue to amuse every time you put your foot further into your (big) mouth. Take care.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
AyDb @ 10/31/2004 4:28:57 AM #
While I agree with you about Mike's irrationally rabid and wholly fact-free attacks on PocketPC, I've got to side with him on the subject of a file system. I don't care to hear developers telling me that I don't need something. I DO find it neccessary. And, while someone who doesn't want a file system can always ignore it, those who do want it can't make it magically appear.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
mikecane @ 10/31/2004 10:28:09 AM #
Hey, A, I don't need someone covering my back who has a knife aimed at it. Don't do me any favors.

And Voice of Insanity -- gee, *palmOne* put an effing filesystem in their flavor of the OS. How wrong are THEY?

Go eat your peas and die. Soon, please. (The dying part, not the peas part.)

Why PalmOS doesn't NEED a Windows-style filesystem
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/31/2004 10:55:40 AM #
While I agree with you about Mike's irrationally rabid and wholly fact-free attacks on PocketPC, I've got to side with him on the subject of a file system. I don't care to hear developers telling me that I don't need something. I DO find it neccessary. And, while someone who doesn't want a file system can always ignore it, those who do want it can't make it magically appear.

AyDb, I assume you're a power user but remember, most Palm users aren't. When PalmOS was created, it was intended to be primarily for PIM, with an added bonus of running a few add-on apps. No one ever anticipated the OS handling MP3, MPEG, Word/Excel/Powerpoint documents in their native format, etc. The OS has remarkably extended itself well beyond its humble origins, all while maintaining backward compatibility with thousands of legacy apps. The compatibility, simplicity, reliability and stability of PalmOS are what I believe differentiates it from PPC. If you were to add a Windows file system to PalmOS, you immediately lose out on simplicity (thus increasing tech support costs, which Palm can ill afford) and potentially affect stability, reliability and compatibility depending on how superficially or deeply the file system hooks into the OS. Tapwave has managed to (sort of) pull off putting in a type of filesystem without destroying the essence of PalmOS. For power users looking to better manage their files, I recommend trying one of the following:

McFile (latest beta)
FileZ (freeware)
RescoExplorer
FileMan
TealMover

There are several other options, but these are (in my experience) the best ones available for the platform. Are these a good substitute for a TRUE filesystem? No. Do they work well to help manage files spread out in both Palm's open format on RAM and the more structured system on expansion memory cards? Yes.

I would rather see Palm not mess up the last good thing they have going (PalmOS) by adding a bunch of features only a small minority (probably much less than 1%) of users care about. After seeing how Palm has butchered the minor OS update in the Tungsten "5", do you really want them mucking around with the OS right now? (Remember, the T"5" update from 5.2 to 5.3 - ummmm 5.4 - was SUPPOSED to be a minor collection of bugfixes! Instead, this bugfix will require at least two patches before it's even remotely stable! Michael Mace and PalmSource should be ashamed of themselves.) I feel the better solution is to let power users continue fending for themselves, customizing a stable, basic PalmOS with whatever apps they choose to add on. I have used all of the apps listed above and some I like better than others. You might like a file manager that I hate. Because these aren't part of the ROM, I can delete or update them easily whenever I choose. That's the kind of flexibility I expect (and demand) from PalmOS. Once Palm tries to mess with their formula for success and become all things to all people, we'll end up with "New Coke". And remember what happened to "New Coke"...

I'm just an amateur developer and probably not the best one to be defending Palm's actions. It would be nice to hear from people like Michael Mace, Ben Combee, Dianne "BDSM" Hackborn* and the rest of the PalmSource Crew about their rationale for leaving PalmOS without a Windows-style filesystem.




*Dianne, if you haven't yet read Russell Hoban's novel, Riddley Walker, pick it up. I think you'll like it.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War? Filesystems cont'd
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/31/2004 12:56:52 PM #
gee, *palmOne* put an effing filesystem in their flavor of the OS. How wrong are THEY?

Mike, your ignorance is showing (again). Someone that knows as little as you do should at least try to be civil as you put your foot - repeatedly - into your big mouth. Palm put a neutered file manager into the Tungsten "5" to allow browsing + moving files amongst the various storage areas. Sonys have had something similar for years. McFile, FileZ, etc actually work much better than Palm's own manager. Cobalt's filesystem remains in question - I haven't used any Cobalt devices recently - have you?




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
mikecane @ 11/1/2004 10:36:35 AM #
You really are a mental case, Voice of Assininity. No Zen of Palm? The number of extra taps is a false issue? You effing bonehead!

Go eat your own damned words, you unmedicated dipsoid:

Why Palms are STILL a better choice than PPCs
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/13/2004 1:58:21 AM

[...]

Yes, the new PPC hardware makes Palm's current offerings look like a joke. Palm's pricing for the "T5" is most charitably described as "ambitious". But Palm still beats PPC because:

1) They have the best user interface. Period. All the main things I use a PDA to do are much easier to accomplish on a PalmOS PDA. PDAs are (for me) primarily about fast access to information and PalmOS serves up that info a lot faster and more intuitively than PPC. This isn't to say PPC is hard to learn or unuseable. Far from it. But PalmOS simply works better. It's like the difference between driving a Honda S2000 (Palm) and a Dodge Viper (PPC). I'll take elegance and efficiency (Palm) over unsophisticated brute power (PPC) any day. I'll leave the Viper and PPC to the "Gold Chain Crowd".

And then shove this in your mouth too -- and make sure you swallow:

http://www.pdabuzz.com/Default.aspx?tabid=30&itemid=461


Ryan,Mike Cane appears to have lost his mind
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/1/2004 2:09:32 PM #
(what little he had left of it) ;-) I find it odd that his bizarre outbursts are STILL tolerated here. Even during flame wars, everyone else seems to be able to keep things tongue in cheek and avoid the lunatic screeching Mike CONTINUALLY resorts to.
MIke, I' again try to politely show you the error of your ways. Read the threads again. I've alwways said that I PERSONALLY feel PalmOS is the best choice. The fact that I have several thousand dollars worth of CLIES (including several new ones purchased as backups in case Sony really never comes back) would seem to back up how I feel about PalmOS. I also have posted that I plan to be using PalmOS for at least the next 5 years.
The quote you reference above describes precisely how I feel about PalmOS: for me it is easily the best choice. But for MOST users facing the decision between PalmOS + cheap, unreliable, underpowered hardware Vs. PPC + well made, well equipped hardware, the choice will naturally be PPC. This takeover by PPC is already starting to happen. It's hard to fault consumers: the Zen of Palm is a somewhat nebulous "feature" to sell compared to PPCs listing VGA screens, Wi-Fi + Bluetooth, replaceable batteries, quality construction,dual CompactFlash + SD slots, etc that Palm can' t (or is too cheap to) match. So there you have it Mike. Yet another of your bizarre, boorish rants blows up in your face, leaving you looking like a fool. You're SO predictable. *sigh*



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
AyDb @ 11/1/2004 4:01:50 PM #
Mike: It's called a difference of opinion, you arrogant git. Get over it.

VoR: Yes, Palm OS was created primarily for PIM, and that's a big part of the problem. They just kept trying to keep the same design when the available hardware had fundamentally changed. I would guess that the 'Zen of Palm' means reaching a point where you don't care what your competitors are doing. :P

Why would non-power users not need a file system? Everyone who's ever used a computer, be it PC, Mac, anything, is familiar with the design of a file system. If anything, it's a lot more intuitive for new users than Palm's mishmash of databases, RAM, VFS, and trying to figure out what's where and why.

You are dead on, however, about the comparison of PocketPC hardware and Palm hardware. That is why PalmOne's sales fell 20%, while HP and Dell went up 20% and 30%. Most people aren't attached to a single OS.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/1/2004 4:56:20 PM #
AyDb: You dare mock the Zen teachings of the Mystic Monks of Milpitas??? Infidel! You will pay for your treachery, Grasshopper!
Seriously, though, I fail to see the fuss over the "need" for a Windows-style file system. First of all, any time you give end users access to more things to potentially mess up, the higher your support costs. Palm's system shields users from making dumb errors like forgetting where they put a file.But at the same time, power users can easily add a powerful file manager and get many of the benefits of a Windows-stlye filesystem. So you can't store MP3 on RAM. So what? Real power users carry memory cards loaded with all the files they need, anyway. How has Palm's filesystem in any SIGNIFICANT way limited what you can do with your PDA? I really think Palm's filesystem is a nonissue for over 99.9 % of users. To complicate the OS simply to appeal to a few power users like yo would be a mistake and Palm has wisely stood their ground. And after seeing how badly Palm butchered the simple OS update on the T"5", do you REALLY want them tinkering under the hood anymore? I'll keep my PalmOS 5.2 PDAs and not expect anything more advanced from Palm until Cobalt comes out. (If Cobalt comes out!)
I think we should beconcerned more with the OS functionality than with how it achieves the end results. In that regard, PalmOS still blows PPC away.
I've been keeping up withthis thread on my UX50 connected flawlessly to a Sony Ericsson T608 Bluetooth phone. I've never had any problems with crashes or data loss on my PDA. I can send + receive email with attachments. take photos + videos, listen to MP3 (while using the PDA at the same time!), edit native Word documents without losing formatting and do a lot of other things, including PIM. Show me a PPC that can do all this as reliably as my PalmOs device. PalmOS simply WORKS well at letting you accomplish things you want to do. And isn't that exactly what an OS is supposed to do?
Regarding Mike Cane: isn't it funny how he never has the guts to admit when he's wrong? Instead, he gets all flustered and starts spewing insults as soon as someone shows he's just full of... shi*... I mean hot air. ;-)



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
mikecane @ 11/1/2004 7:47:30 PM #
Voice of Idiocy: Must you *always* post your lunacy *twice*? *Me* being wrong? You drunken SOB, you spout stuff and then slimily back away when challened. Over and over and over again. We're all still laughing over your "insider" info about that new CLIE that never appeared.

What a bizarre string of posts from Mike Cane. How sad.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/2/2004 10:05:51 PM #
Keep shouting insults, Mike. Everyone reading your comments realizes you're full of hot air and actually don't know much about PalmOS. It's amazing that someone like you could have spent several HOURS per day over the past five years, posting incessantly, repeatedly "testing" display models in stores, etc, yet be so ignorant of even the basics with Palm. Do you still think the T"5" has a revolutionary new filesystem? What's that? Can't hear you, Mike.

If you had any guts at all, you'd admit you're both wrong and clueless, apologize, and then finally S T F U. For good. I realize in your current condition you probably lack any insight, so ask a friend (if you have any) for an honest opinion about your behaviour. Or even ask readers at PIC how they feel about you. We pity you, Mike. It seems that your behaviour is an awkward attempt to compensate for some of your shortcomings. Yes you're an old, short, unmarried man with no friends, no decent job and little prospects for the future. But shouting baseless insults on a Palm site isn't going to change your life. Deal with it.

Sorry if this sound callous, Mike, but it's time someone was blunt and told you the truth. I hope you're able to work your issues out in the future. Take care.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Has Palm surrendered in the PDA War?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/3/2004 11:26:24 PM #
What? Still no apology from Mike Cane? What a surprise. Guess the cat got his tongue.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Market Research BS Non-speak

VisorMiser @ 10/28/2004 10:36:33 PM #
"It is crucial that vendors push handheld devices into new market segments through the integration of existing technology such as GPS bundles in order to energize this market and return it to a growth path."

So they gotta find new market segments in order to grow. No kiddin'? DUH you dimwit!! That's market research speak for "we don't know what the hell's gonna happen".

A market resarcher is someone who borrows your watch then bills you when he tells you what time it is.

the VisorMiser
_____________________________________________________________________________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. -- Sir Winston Churchill

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