Comments on: PalmSource: OS 5 at the Center of Attention
The star of the annual PalmSource convention has clearly been Palm OS 5. As it is arguably a make-or-break proposition for the the platform, this isn't surprising.
Of course, at the heart of the new OS is its support for ARM-based processors. It isn't locked into to chips from any single company and the OS has been demonstrated here at the convention running on processors from Intel, Texas Instruments, Motorola, and Cyrus, though these are all development boards. Palm itself has chosen TI to power its OS 5 handhelds.
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RE: I want one
I have the new Portege 2000 notebook that weighs 2.6 lbs. Damn is it ridiculously light and I can run the Palm emulator too. And OS 5.0 when it's available to us developers ;-)
RE: I want one
RE: I want one
Yes, my best friend works at Toshiba America. No, I didn't get any discounts and paid the full price you would pay on the buy Toshiba website, but I did get it extra early ;-)
It is sweet. You will be very, very happy. I could have gotten one of those 10 lb Dell Inspiron 8100 with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in, but size and especially weight do matter. I do hope the next iteration of the Portege 2000 includes the Geforce 4 Go chip. The only thing I'm not happy about but can live with given the other awesome attributes is the shared memory video chip. WTF !!! Why is everyone including HP going this route. Yes, it shaves off a couple of bucks off of production costs, but if you're going to charge premium $$$ you better have the real deal with real VRAM !!!
Excuse my digression, but the Portege 2000 is the best ultralite to date. I still own a Portege 3440ct and some overpriced. IBM thunkpad.
RE: I want one
RE: I want one
That's why I would like to see the GeForce 4 Go in the next refresh of the Portege 2000... I guess it will be called Portege 2100 due in the next 6 months.
Waiting for OS 6
OS 5.0 doesn't offer me anything except shelling out more $$$. OS 5.0 is really nothing more than OS 4.x ported to ARM. Heck, it even looks the same. Yes, I know there is a lot more under the hood but until new apps are written ARM-based Palms are nothing more than faster Palms. I'm not going to pay top $$$ to run notepad and address book at blistering speeds as it is already fast enough.
It's really OS 6.0 or whatever it will be called that I'm waiting for. Until then, Palm you have a lot more work to do.
RE: Waiting for OS 6
RE: Waiting for OS 6
I suspect I will likely purchase an OS 5 Palm if only because I like to buy a Palm every year and I do want to make the leap to 320x320 resoultion. I suspect both Palm and Sony will come out with m505/T615 like units but with ARM processors and high res color screens and I will pick the best amoung them. Hopefully Palm hardware will make up for their lackluster performance of late and have a beautiful but cutting edge unit to compete with Sony's recent leaps this fall as Palm units tend to have slightly better tech support, are more supported by aftermarket products, and tend to have a long history of upgrade potential in terms of the OS.
PS: Make sure all the OS 5 handhelds can upgrade to OS 6!
RE: Waiting for OS 6
Scott
RE: Waiting for OS 6
RE: Waiting for OS 6
RE: Waiting for OS 6
Scott"
Here is an example contact: 1 buisness address, 1 home address. 2 home numbers, 2 buisness number, 1 fax number, 1 cell number, 3 email addresses, a webpage, information on spouse, children etc. I want to assign this to two categories, 1. work contacts and 2. personal friends.
As it stands right now to do this I need to 1. create 2 contacts, 1 for each category. and 2. put much of this info into the notes of the contact causing it to not sync properly with Microsoft Outlook (my desktop PIM) via PocketMirror and causing additional hassles with the general display of the contact and search of info in the contact. The reality is the explosion of technology has added a lot of info we need to track on folks and the current PIM just doesn't keep up. Because Datebk4 and ActionNames 5 use the basic Palm OS contact datebase as a starting point they can only overcome some (sometimes in an inefficent way) but not all of these problems. Plus they require me to pay $$$ for a soultion that should come out of the box. Forget MP3s, forget video, forget high res action games or Gameboy emulators (the stuff I imagine we will see taking advantage of the ARM processors first) why don't we see the ARM being used to create a more attractive GUI that properly uses color and finally after 5-6 years we should update the core apps!
RE: Waiting for OS 6
I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know, and I don't know how well this will sync, and it *is* definitely a bit kludgy, but...
* Assign business address to a Custom field called "Work Addr". You can put line breaks in here.
* Assign home address to the standard address fields.
* Assign both home numbers to a multi-use field called "Home" (again, use line breaks).
* Assign both work numbers to a multi-use field called "Work" (again, use line breaks).
* Assign fax number to a multi-use field called "Fax".
* Assign cell number to a multi-use field called "Mobile".
* Assign all three email addresses to a multi-use field called "E-mail".
* Assign web page to a Custom field (renamed as you like).
* Assign spouse and children info to one Custom field (renamed as you like, use line breaks).
Problems with what I described:
1) This won't fix the multiple category issue.
2) If you have a smartphone (like my i300), you won't be able to dial numbers that stored in one field using multiple lines.
3) You won't be able to send an email to an email address using one field with multiple lines.
Sorry if I'm coming across like a know-it-all. That's not my intent. Just figured I'd offer this "solution" in case it meets your (or someone else's) needs. Your example is certainly an extreme one. I'll modify my previous comments to say that I would like Palm to add two new multi-use fields as well as a Birthday field (combined with built-in birthday checking in the Date Book app) and a separate "Holidays" applet for storing other types of recurring anniversaries, etc. That said, I stand by *my opinion* that adding too many *specific* (non multi-use) fields can create too much clutter to have to scroll through for most users who will be needing far less fields.
Scott
RE: Waiting for OS 6
I would need:1 buisness address, 1 home address. 2 home numbers, 2 buisness number, 1 fax number, 1 cell number, 3 email addresses, a webpage, information on spouse, children etc. I want to assign this to two categories, 1. work contacts and 2. personal friends plus account numbers field if I am inputing a company only. So on and so forth. Obviously we cannot please everyone.
I will like to see Palm modify its basic Datebook including its Desktop PC application to sync in with the times.
RE: Waiting for OS 6
Personally, I'd like to see the ability to set an apointment and have the time show as free. For example I'd like to put my 3 day business trip in and be able to schedule meetings during that trip without having the meeitngs show as conflicts
RE: Waiting for OS 6
I disagree. Strongly. The apps that are included with the Palm OS should be good genaral purpose apps but not the very best available. Bascially what you want is for Palm to put the makers of ActionNames and the rest out of business. You also want me to carry around a 600 K app when all I need is a fairly minimal one at about 50K.
What PalmSource does best isn't make PIMs. They shouldn't try. If you want a better than minimal PIM, buy one.
RE: Waiting for OS 6
RE: Waiting for OS 6
What's more this is just the initial release of OS5. Followup additions are scheduled for release quite quickly.
-Craig Bowers
RE: Waiting for OS 6
RE: Waiting for OS 6
I disagree. Strongly. The apps that are included with the Palm OS should be good genaral purpose apps but not the very best available. Bascially what you want is for Palm to put the makers of ActionNames and the rest out of business. You also want me to carry around a 600 K app when all I need is a fairly minimal one at about 50K.
What PalmSource does best isn't make PIMs. They shouldn't try. If you want a better than minimal PIM, buy one."
I couldn't disagree more. One of the basic features of a PDA and its operating system, since the dawn of the Newton and certainly the Pilot, PalmPilot, and Palm has been the PIM. The hallmark of a quality PDA is a wonderful out of box experience that replaces paper planners etc. with easy to use YET POWERFUL softwear built into the OS. An additional feature of a PDA OS is to allow developers to create other softwear to use on the PDA, but the PIM is always at the core.
RE: Waiting for OS 6
Scott
RE: Waiting for OS 6
Palm using BLUETOOTH with New Software code-named Cambio
Thursday 7th February 2002
ZDNet UK staff
Palm rolled out its latest operating system, new hardware appeared and Bluetooth is promised. Palm's chief executive explains what the next steps are. A ZDNet UK News Focus
Palm using Bluetooth with it's New Software called Cambio: check the following Video
Streamed video: PalmSource unveils syncing software
Palm's OS company shows off an early version of its synchronization software, code-named Cambio, to PalmSource 2002 keynote attendees.
Streamed video: New Palm OS prepares for battle
At the opening of PalmSource 2002, CEO David Nagel says the new Palm OS will help the company fight off Microsoft's Pocket PC in the enterprise market
Streamed video: OS development vital to Palm's future
IDC's handheld analyst says tomorrow's PalmSource conference takes on added significance as Palm rallies developers to help maintain its lead in the handheld industry.
Motorola breaks out new chip at PalmSource
Correspondent Melissa Francis demos Motorola's first ARM-based processor at PalmSource 2002.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t294-s2103931,00.html#
If the link doesn't work check http://news.zdnet.co.uk/
RE: Waiting for OS 6
Have you ever tried to put all of what you're asking for in the address/phone section of a paper planner? The average paper address book has 3-5 lines. The palm setup is more than adequate for at least 90% of its users, that's not a bad rate. Specialized needs exist but you can't expect a company to design an app for less than 10% of its user base when there are other companies who concentrate on that exact thing.
We all say we want the perfect PDA but what we really want is OUR perfect PDA. You can't expect Palm to build YOURS.
ED: A question for you to search for...
Also can you see if any themes are available for viewing, and if not what parts of the GUI do they intend to include as changable by a theme?
Is there any whisperings about which ARM processors are fastest, ie. is TI slower than XScale etc.?
Finally Palm is talking a lot about "wireless Palms with OS 5 this fall" but what about an m505 like Palm with a 320x320 color screen, ARM processor etc. for the basic upscale PDA buyer who doesn't need wireless functions? Do we have to wait until March of next year?
Thanks Ed... great job on the screen shots and photos!
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
Cheers
Russell
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
I'm seriously looking forward to having a bluetooth enabled palm and a bluetooth enabled phone so I'll be waiting on the first integrated Bluetooth Palm.
---
Sir Tez
IT is a rough life
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
This is really lame. I have nothing against 3rd party developers as many just simply rock, but Palm should do a much better job with the basic apps. Is it too much to ask?
Bottomline: If this is the best Palm can offer, then there is ZERO reason to upgrade. Bring on OS 6.0 and then we can talk about an upgrade.
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
Scott
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
If you want it, why don't you buy one? It seems to be important to you. Why does PalmSource have to make it? You've been using Microsoft for too long. MS is in the business of putting everyone else out of business. If there is any good Windows app, MS makes a version of it, bundles it with Windows, then puts the other company out of business. Why do you want PalmSource to do the same thing? Let the third-party developers do what they do best.
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
If you saw how much work went under the hood, and how much of a nice framework has been laid out for developers, you'd see there was little time to fuss with the applications. This has some amazing stuff for developers to start using. You're right, it would be trivial to enhance the built in apps somewhat, but that's not the focus of this release it would seem. In any case it's still quite early, and there's plenty of time for a fresh look to the apps to be implemented by release time. The OS is still very much a work in progress. They've also hinted about some future Skinnable functionality.
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
If you want it, why don't you buy one? It seems to be important to you. Why does PalmSource have to make it? You've been using Microsoft for too long. MS is in the business of putting everyone else out of business. If there is any good Windows app, MS makes a version of it, bundles it with Windows, then puts the other company out of business. Why do you want PalmSource to do the same thing? Let the third-party developers do what they do best."
From whom? Both ActionNames (which I use) and Datebk4 has problems at their core directly as a result of the fact they use the Palm Date Book database structure. If I go buy a PocketPC 2002 I get the PIM functionality but in a clunky interface with non of the extra softwear support of the community. Plus I would have to use Microsoft in an arena I still believe I will never have to.
SOOO... I continue to have great hopes that someday Palm will once again innovate and get things back on track. Properly using the power of the ARM processor to improve those things that get us to buy a PDA in the first place, the GUI and PIM functions. OS 5 won't, maybe OS 6.
RE: ED: A question for you to search for...
Color QVGA
He also wouldn't give any more details on his company's recent announcement that some company will be releasing a handheld with a color QVGA screen, though he implied that his company would be doing so."
That's very nice to know.
A color QVGA screen even on a current Palm OS 4 device would hold me over for a long time.
I'm sure sometime in a year or so i'll want the ability to bring some simpsons episodes with me as well, but by then who knows what the PDA's will be like.
And if Handera is the one to come out with it, let's hope for a non PIII look and some USB.
RE: Color QVGA
RE: Color QVGA
Color on my Handera would hold me over until OS 6.
That way, I get all the TRULY important features and buy time to get the kinks worked out of the new migration to OS5...
RE: Color QVGA
RE: Color QVGA
RE: Color QVGA
Only problem with your 320x480 is that the scaling would be awful to 480x640. I'd much rather see us go from 240x320 to 480x640.
RE: Color QVGA
Yes, 320x320 square screens have a better dot-pitch than 320x240, but really, the difference isn't that great on such a small display.
I know Handspring is releasing products with no Graffiti area - the Treo 180 is the first - so a quare formate was probably important to keep.
But I'd still like to see built-in support for other aspect ratios.
HandEra developed their own, but they held onto it and required other vendors to license it from them. I can see why PalmSource wouldn't want to incorporate it. I have to wonder if HandEra had 'donated' their tech back to PalmSource, would it be in OS5?
I bet the 320x320 solution is the one Sony developed, just like the 16bit color code came from Handsping.
I think the Treo is sexy tech - I'm still using the first model digital StarTac phone and a Visor Deluxe. I am very tempted to get a Treo 180g if the CDMA model appears and is picked up by Verizon. I like Graffiti and I generally write short notes to myself that I can do faster that way than with a thumbboard. I'd wait for the Treo 270 - but right now they've only commeted to the keyboard model, the 270g is a possibility only. Of course, it *should* have an SD/MMC slot and I think it is stupid that it doesn't.
So I might just wait a bit longer to see what comes out later in the year - unless something breaks on me.
-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Foolish
RE: Foolish
RE: Foolish
RE: Foolish
-Terry
RE: Foolish
Agreed!
I CANNOT phathom that Palm will not let Handera use this connector!!! I thought that was the whole idea of the thing when they introduced it at last years Palm Source.
PATHETIC PATHETIC PATHETIC ! ! ! ! !
I swear, someone at Palm should be taken in the back and put down like a sick old horse...
Competition
RE: Foolish
If Palm really wanted to quash the competition all they have to do is make their OS proprietary. ;-)
RE: Foolish
RE: Foolish
Alarm bells...
If not, what is the point.
-liam
RE: Alarm bells...
And that's about it. The point of OS5 seems to be to smoothly transition from Dragonball 68K processors to ARM chips. The addition of user task / threads, protected memory / databases and so on will really come with the next major OS update.
Oh, also there's a lot more security added to OS5, which is mainly aimed at the corporate market. The OS5 security session is happening in about an hour, we'll know more after that.
Cheers
Russell
RE: Alarm bells...
I was hoping for more or less the same GUI, only with a solid OS underneath. What we've got is a simple port. This is not progress. Are palm still just going down the easy marketing-led route of faster numbers?
The time to build a solid micro-kernal is at the onset, it will be a fudge to try and do this later.
-Liam
RE: Alarm bells...
**
If this is true, then I don't see why I should pay my hard-earned money to fund Palm's R&D. I'm happy with my Palm Vx and will keep it until Palm comes out with a compelling reason to upgrade.
RE: Alarm bells...
You're right. And no one is forcing you to. In some ways this may be good for OS4 device owners since new apps which run on OS5 ARM devices should be backward compatible with OS4 devices.
Scott
RE: Alarm bells...
RE: Alarm bells...
RE: Alarm bells...
OS5 should have incorporated an emulator that allowed dragonball apps to run, a modern micro-kernal and a GUI similar to the current GUI.
What are we going to get - fast RISC processors emulating slower CISC processors. And paying $$$ for it.
I will probably stick with my M505 now. I tried a PPC, but Palm OS kicks ass on the GUI, ease-of-use front.
I'm very disappointed.
-liam
RE: Alarm bells...
Because companies are going to start making kick-ass applications for it. Expect MPEG players, 3D games, MP3 players and all the way cool stuff you've always wanted. Why the **** are you so hung up on the Launcher? You use the Launcher .01% of the time. If you want a better PIM, buy one.
RE: Alarm bells...
RE: Alarm bells...
Connectors
This is not a trivial matter: as companies and schools try to incorporate handhelds into their day-to-day activities, they are faced with an additional, superfluous level of complexity when deciding what peripherals, cradles, etc. to purchase.
This must change.
RE: Connectors
Palm wants you to buy THEIR handhelds and one of their selling points is that they have standardized around one connector (the "universal") with one expansion soultion (SD/MMC cards) which helps assure you that hopefully if you buy a m125/m500/m505/i705 today that the Palms of the future (ARM, OS5) will share the same format and therefore many of the same accesories.
RE: Connectors
RE: Connectors
Scott
RE: Connectors
Scott
RE: Connectors
RE: Connectors
RE: Connectors
RE: Connectors
do you really need a cradle just so that your PDA can stand up !?
RE: Connectors
You know what someone is going to do is create a real universal connector and then everyone but plam will have it and a couple of years down the road, Palm will have to adopt it.
Cradles
Just like I won't buy a PDA that uses a serial connection. I loved the HE330 and think it is very nice overall - but I went from a IIIx to a Visor Deluxe and I'm not going back to serial - no way, no how. If they had made it with USB, I probably would've bought one when it was released.
Now, a year later, I'd also want color. The only non-color device I'd consider at this point is the Treo 180 because it has many other advantages.
Even there, expansion is starting to creep onto my 'basic requirements' list - either SD/MMC or MS. I think Springboard is effectively dead, except for the MemPlug line, which is nice.
-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
RE: Connectors
By the way Handera is so clue less as to how to sell a PDA that they will be lick to be in business for OS6. Hell they are the ONLY morons still shipping a serial, B&W PDA with OS 3.5 in a IIIxe formfactor! Gimme a break. Sony right now is the industry leader and the ONLY Palm PDA innovator. If they weren't pushing the limits of the Palm PDA we would still have a $500.00 Palm V. As for PPC2002 it is getting colser and closer to the ULTIMATE PDA and given enough time and MONEY (no problem there) they will eventually succeed. Palm better get there first!
But what about the most important feature of all...
RE: But what about the most important feature of all...
RE: But what about the most important feature of all...
RE: But what about the most important feature of all...
Virtual graffiti support
I don't care how high the screen resolution is, I need more phisical screen real estate to read ebooks!
160x240 would be better than 480x480 if it has a bigger screen area, IMHO!
RE: Virtual graffiti support
This universal connector deal stinks too. Clearly HandEra was interested in using it, and Palm turned them down. Does Palm make that much money selling replacement cradles or what? HandEra seems to be the only company on the boat with well developed technical ideas. It is too bad they aren't running the show, and leave the rest of the companies to put it in a pretty package and sell it to the masses.
Let me know when Palm's technological ideas catch up to HandEra, because it sure isn't happening anytime this year. No wonder HandEra's president has lots to say, they're the only ones with good ideas. Unless Palm resolves some of these awful design issues, I don't see another Palm OS device in my future.
RE: Virtual graffiti support
I've been using PDA's for a while, and I remember when Apple finally ditched the silkscreen for buttons and made it virtual. It's about time palm did this.
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
Dave
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
The new High Density Screen Manager will support screens of a size that is not square, or not a multiple of 160x160. Thus it's quite possible for an application to ask 'how big is the screen', and if the screen is longer than normal, use that to draw more lines in an eBook or whatever.
So applications that want to take advantage of non 160x160 multiple resulutions can do so using the standard OS5 API.
The OS will also include support for blitting images of one density to another density, but only at one scale factor. For example, if you have a bitmap that's 100x100 in normal 160x160 screen rez, the OS can automatically blit that to a screen that's has a resulution of 240x240 or whatever.
What it can't do is just take a regular 160x160 and stretch it to be 160x240 - then again this would look really ugly, and fonts would be pretty much unreadable.
So... in conclusion, OS5 has support for 'longer' screens (possible due to a virtual Graffiti area). However, application developers will have to explicitly code for this - but is there really any other way to do this?
Cheers
Russell
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
Wouldn't everyone rather the bigger screen AND dedicated full-time graffiti?
RE: Virtual graffiti support
Palm's shown the OS on a LOT of ARM prototypes with a lot of different screens, some with a virtual graffiti area. And as for other non-HandEra 240x320, virtual graffiti examples, Symbol is showing off one at their booth now. Also while not end-user controllable like the two above, technically Samsung's i300 also uses a virtual graffiti area.
The main point though is that OS5 and correctly written apps, won't care about screen size. They can use small screens, and very large screens.
RE: Virtual graffiti support
>320x240 screen with "Virtual Graffiti" does. Just coz
>it's square, doesn't mean its a smaller screen.
>Wouldn't everyone rather the bigger screen AND
>dedicated full-time graffiti?"
NO. 320x320 is the same size (or even slightly smaller in the case of Sony Clie) than the origial 160x160. Higher resolution doesn't mean more screen real estate. A dedicated graffiti area ALWAYS reduces the screen space if you want to keep the palm form factor. Unless you make a square device, there is no reason to use 320x320.
320x240 is cheaper to make since it is the same as existing PPC screen. However, for compatibility, I would prefer 320x480.
RE: Virtual graffiti support
http://images.palmstation.com/symqvga/pic3.jpg
(courtesy of Symbol and Palmstation.com)
Mike Cane - are you drooling yet?
RE: Virtual graffiti support
> but I don't expect any of the current Palm companies to offer a 160x240
I thought the Samsung i300 was 160x240.
RE: Virtual graffiti support
RE: Virtual graffiti support
No. This is simply HandEra's Soft Graffiti method. Read my Wish List to see why I don't like it.
RE: Virtual graffiti support
> Read my Wish List to see why I don't like it.
I've looked at your wish list. There is nothing keeping you from using the "silk" APIs that HandEra has provided to write a replacement graffiti area that does what you want. I think HandEra's virtual graffiti solution is very elegant and fits the Palm style. They are not going to do a custom tailored solution for every individual.
Send HandEra your feature suggestions, maybe they will implement some of them.
MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
Which has photos of a slideshow from Palmsource with slides on "The next major OS release (after OS5)" which I for now will call OS 6.0
The sad story? OS 6.0 has EXACTLY WANT I WANTED and I think PALM NEEDED right now...
OS 6.0 features:
1. OS 5 didn't touch existing APIs and programming models, OS 6 will.
2. Support for NATIVE ARM applications and libraries (apparently apps on a OS 5 machine even those made after its debut will be hampered by a OS 4.1 programming model and will need the brute force of the ARM to make the handheld faster as opposed to brute force combined with native programming.)
3. "Big" new features including a new runtime model, event threading, delivery, and memory protection. (So OS 5 still shares the old underpinnings of OS 1.0, not good.)
4. New sync and desktop capabilities (I have no idea what this means, I like our sync.)
5. PIM record formats and Data Manager upgrades. (THIS IS HUGE, HUGE, HUGE... we need a PIM that can handle more than 1 category per contact and TONS of fields for tons of phone numbers, emails, adddresses etc. per contact. WHY, WHY haven't we seen a single major update since 1996?)
6. PACE (the emulator) will still be a good soultion. (ie. OS 6 will still run OS 4.1 apps, but now for the first time they hint apps will be written natively for OS 6 that won't run on pre-OS 6 versions. This seems to imply for now that apps that are designed for OS 5 will run on OS 4.1 since apparently their is little difference other than one is running in brute force emulation.)
Wow. I am a huge Palm fanatic and yes I will be buying a 320x320 ARM OS 5 Palm to replace my m505 when they arrive but how terribly disappointed am I that many of the features of OS 6 didn't make it into OS 5. I would assume OS 6 will be at least 1 year later than OS 5 and therefore we are looking for at least 18 more months of non-ARM native applications, applications still hampered by the poor PIM structure of the Palm (even my ActionNames Datebook 5.0 suffers, the one thing I wish my Palm could do everyday is support all the categories and fields a modern PIM like Outlook can).
Well there is always hope for OS 6...
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
(sarcasm)
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
I'm so excited by OS... I mean BS 5
GREAT !!! SIX YEARS LATER .......
- Flexible Screens
- Batteries last for months (Fuel Cells)
- Speech regonition
- Always on (no idea what always on but it's always better to be turned on right ??)
- Broadband wireless
- and 1.56 GHz stuff ....... somebody please explain why we are having 200 MHz and 1.56 Ghz in the same picture !?
AWESOME !!!
Guess I can wait for 6 years for that ...
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
Scott
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2CA2126
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
PALM DESKTOP 5.0
Anybody agree? Anybody have any other suggestions for Desktop 5?
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
With the only difference between the Palm OS and PPC being the GUI, PPC is doomed. Thier GUI stinks.
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
RE: PALM DESKTOP 5.0
JOHN DOE
123 MAIN STREET
CITY, STATE, ZIP
You could then use label and print or just cut out from paper and tape on your package. Sure beats re-formatting.
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
"You are way too hung up on what the Launcher will do. There will be great multimedia programs available for OS 5. Awesome games, too. PalmSource may have decided to pass on the making use of the extra power, but Astraware, Red Mercury, and the others sure won't."
The purpose of the palm is not a gaming platform. It is a "Digital DayTimer". Most PDA users dont even bother to download games to their devices. PIM updates are a MUST since it hasnt truly been updated since '96
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
Just as most people only use the PIM functions, those same people are perfectly satisfied with how those functions work. If you want to rip on those with above-average needs for multi-media who are excited about OS 5, you should really consider yourselves in the same category--users who have specialized wants and needs.
Can't we all just get along?
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
RE: MORE OS 6.0 DETAILS!!!
Simulator availability?
RE: Simulator availability?
RE: Simulator availability?
RE: Simulator availability?
Why should anyone trust you? You post anonymously and you sound like a troll. I don't trust anything you say.
______
Larry the Tomato
RE: Simulator availability?
Oh no. So, that's the same "brain" that through out everything that Apple knew about usability and replaced it with eye-candy? Which one of those three identical circular buttons minimizes the window?
Scott
RE: Simulator availability?
RE: Simulator availability?
RE: Simulator availability?
Actually that makes me wonder
I think I'll see what Sybian has to offer.
RE: Simulator availability?
There's the new Sound Manager that will support 16 channel sound.
There's the high density screen manager to provide a common API for differing screen resolutions (more info on that should follow at about 5pm PST when we've seen some of the APIs - specifically whether there will be support for other screen ratios and virtual grafitti areas.
There's the new security library, providing enterprise level security for Palm devices - something that really is needed.
Cheers
Russell
RE: Simulator availability?
RE: Simulator availability?
Sound - 16 channel stereo sound API with sync / async / streaming support. Native WAV file support.
GFX - New High Density / non square screen support. Auto blitting between screen densities.
802.11b - Native support for 802.11b - to allow 3rd party apps to manage and interograte any 802.11b add-on in the device.
New notifications - as 68K hacks will no longer work on OS5, many many new notifications have been added. Thus any app can be informed when the user taps or strokes the silkscreen area. Or be told when the device goes idle, or when virtual chars happen. And even be notified whenever an event is dequeued. Basically that covers many of the most popular hacks - like PopupCalculator, any quick-launcher, background processing and so on.
And then there's a new security library - full crypto support for Enterprise apps.
And... erm.. well that's pretty much it it seems.
Cheers
Russell
RE: Simulator availability?
GUI
i imagine palm to transfer to some more efficient gui (like win 3.5) and work with that for quite some time(win xp).
RE: GUI
Win 4.0 was updated to look like Win95 (NT 3.52 also had new look released after 4.0), XP is NT 5.1(5)
RE: GUI
RE: GUI
RE: GUI
Win 4.0 was updated to look like Win95 (NT 3.52 also had new look released after 4.0), XP is NT 5.1(5)<<
XP is technically NT6 (windows 2000 is NT5).
RE: GUI
> non-color models.
That support has been in the OS for some time now.
RE: GUI
Baa...
RE: Baa...
Handspring and Sony
Sony probably will, it's just a matter of time really.
Handspring on the other hand may not be as quick. I say this because they were in no hurry to liscence OS 4.0, in fact they still haven't. They are not fooled by the increasing version numbers with little or no additions, merely bug fixes and their own ideas (USB, 64,000 color support) being implemented. Since Hawkins and Co. made the initial decision to make the Palm OS run on Motorolla processors when they started Palm, it will be very interesting to see if they buy into Palm's new OS ideas. They're alternatives are to liscence WindowsCE (groan) or to make their own again.
Keep us posted Ed.
RE: Handspring and Sony
don't lose site of what is important.
cheap.
easy.
easy.
easy.
anything else is an extra which should not be included. i would rather buy a basic $100 device and then spend extra to buy the software i will use. Heck i need PocketQuicken, and i don't want palm to bundle it in with the OS.
I really don't think that 8mb is necessary. Remember Cheap. easy. easy. easy.
nategall says "blah!"
RE: Handspring and Sony
> with little or no additions, merely bug fixes and their
> own ideas
There were considerable underlying changes from OS 3.5 to 4.x, and heaven forbid you give bugfixes to your users.
RE: Handspring and Sony
> with little or no additions, merely bug fixes and their
> own ideas
There were considerable underlying changes from OS 3.5 to 4.x, and heaven forbid you give bugfixes to your users."
These sorts of comments make the rounds so often. If it didn't include high-res graphics and stereo sound, it wasn't considered to be a significant upgrade. Of course these same sorts of people discount the significance of backward compatibility. The majority of the PPC community seems to care less that the Palm-Sized PC to PPC transition resulted in massive obsolescence and the PPC to PPC 2002 transition did the same.
Scott
RE: Handspring and Sony
What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
Question: So what's the point of spinning of the Palm OS Unit ?? At first I thought Palm OS unit will be involved in the innovating new stuff for palm OS, but turns out they are still waiting for Sony to make new things so they can put that in as part of palm OS.
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
If you need info on Nagel please do a google search and read about his incompetence on the Copland project for Apple.
It's amazing that Palm in their time of need is depending on someone who nearly destroyed Apple computer. It was Steve Jobs and the rest of the NeXT crew that saved the company. And let's not even discuss other Apple execs that Steve gave the 'das boot' to like Ellen Han**** (also destroyed Exodus as CEO) and Gil Amelio (did anyone read his book, "500 days at Apple?").
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
On the Firing Line: My 500 Days at Apple
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
but don't you worry... it will play neat 30 second video clips!
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
As for the Nagel apologist, his results speak for itself. Please inform yourself by doing a Google search and learn the history of this brilliant Apple alumni.
Apple Forever... but my other computer is a home made computer running WinXP Pro with a P4 2GHz with a GeForce 3 Ti500 for gaming ;-)
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
ENJOY!
RE: What's the point of spinning off PalmSource
I'm going to pick one up.
Still no mention of 32bit support
So, what's the deal? Will there be true 32bit support in PalmOS5 or not?
RE: Still no mention of 32bit support
RE: Still no mention of 32bit support
-James.
RE: Still no mention of 32bit support
32bit protected mode operations are absolutely essential as far as I'm concerned. Porting software to the current Palm memory model is a big pain. If Palm doesn't provide this in OS5, perhaps there will be third party "memory managers" (like you used to have on DOS). But if that doesn't happen, Palm can pack up--the money is now in corporate and custom apps, and a 16bit OS is just too painful to port to.
"OS 5 applications aren't native to ARM" ?!
I've seen this mentioned a few times in this forum, and at first, I thought it must surely have
been some kind of a mistake?!, as the implications are so great for many developers (its almost
a nightmare for me and I guess for many games developers?). I'm stunned Palm would not let
developers run native ARM apps directly.
If this is true? (surely not?!, please Palm, please wake up!), then I guess that means the major
selling point for Palm is that PalmOs5 gives them (finally) the chance to say they have an Arm
chip in their PDAs. Big deal, so what's the point, if you can't get at it, to program it directly!.
It sounds like what was implied about PalmOs5 at PalmSource2000 has been cut down into two
releases, PalmOs5 and PalmOs6, just so they can finally rush out PalmOs 5.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to get to PalmSource this year, but hearing apps can't be native
to ARM, I'm almost happy now that I didn't waste my time going.
Alan from 3DAGames
http://www.3dagames.com
p.s. Is it really true that it can't run ARM native Palm apps!.... I must be in shock, as I can't
seem to accept its true!.
RE:
soo... this fall we all get to buy expensive new Palms with gee wiz ARM processors, all cripped by having to run everything in emulation... but don't worry maybe in 2003 Palm will get a clue.
RE:
as far as I understand from Palm Summit , deveoper will have a choice of compiling a so call FAT binary, with Native support of 68K and ARM, so user don't need to care about the difference of CPU in their machine, same thing as what Mac switch from 68K to PowerPC.
so, as my understand, yes, code will be native on ARM if you compile them in FAT bin, not only 68K.
but that left me a question, which I forgot to ask them in the summit, will we be able to compile a ARM native ONLY bin for a smaller bin?
anyone any idea?
RE:
The thought scares me.
I remember well the Apple transition from the 680x0 series to the PowerPC.
It took at least 2 years before we started to see a healthy amount of PowerPC apps and another 5 years before we got a "real" multitasking operating system in MacOS X.
This whole idea of supporting 2 chip architectures scares the hell out of me. And the same goon who dropped the ball running the Copland project is running PalmOS. This doesn't bode well. I hope it works out, but the history of failed Apple alumni at other companies doesn't give me any confidence. Anyone remember Ellen Han****? She destroyed Exodus.
RE: Fat Binaries
RE:
seem to accept its true!."
It's not true at all. What is true is that some of the framework is being phased in, and still being worked on. Several things have been mentioned. There are options for you to call a native ARM routine from your 68K code if in the unlikly event that that routine is emulating slowly. The OS will be 32 bit, with memory protection. Just that it's not likely to make it in the first cut. Further features are reported to be "rapidly" rolled out after the Gold Master release. Later you'll be able to write entirely native ARM apps. The point they're trying to stress is that in the short term, there's absolutely no NEED for you to do that. 68K code will run perfectly well, and faster than ever. Better still you maintain backward compatibility with the older devices.
RE:
RE:
Has any hardware company announced OS5 products, period? I know Palm, Inc. has, and I'd be very surprised if they weren't flash upgradable to OS6 (or whatever it's called). Otherwise, I don't see much reason why anyone would buy an OS5 device.
Scott
RE:
360x360?
Reminds me of the Palm IX that never made it to market
Take a look:
RE: Reminds me of the Palm IX that never made it to market
RE: Reminds me of the Palm IX that never made it to market
RE: Reminds me of the Palm IX that never made it to market
Scott
K.I.S.S.
(K)eep (I)t (S)hort & (S)imple
(or your own variations)
I know about 50 people that have a Palm OS device. Do you know how many of us are concerned about the underlying guts of the OS software?
About 2. Myself included.
You know how many are concerned about having a Quick interface that's easy to navigate and organize?
All of us.
Face it. Palm is probably doing the right thing here with OS5, and making it just a minor "Stepping Stone" upgrade.
I know that many of the 50 people I know would be extremely traumatized if Palm made a huge change to the software.
Besides, how many people do you know bought a new Palm device based solely on the OS features?
Probably none. I know I bought all my Palms based on the hardware and the applications... not the OS.
RE: K.I.S.S.
RE: K.I.S.S.
RE: K.I.S.S.
I could do without what everyone else wants (Multithreaded OS, direct access to ARM CPU, lots of other crap I don't understand, etc, blah blah blah)
I've had some users cringe at things like Launch'Em or MegaLauncher. I'm not talking about a few, I'm talkin TONS. They freak. They had no idea what was going on. John Q. Palmuser loves the basic Palm interface.
Besides, I'm sure that if Handera could do Virtual Graffiti with PalmOS 3.5, they can do it with PalmOS 5.x
RE: K.I.S.S.
> soft graffitti. I know I would."
Please elaborate on what you mean by a "ton of power users." Of all the ones I know, none of them do, myself included.
> I could do without what everyone else wants
> (Multithreaded OS, direct access to ARM CPU, lots of
> other crap I don't understand, etc, blah blah blah)
You're right. Palm should just do what YOU want and not what the majority of users or developers might want. Just YOU.
> I've had some users cringe at things like Launch'Em
> or MegaLauncher. I'm not talking about a few, I'm
> talkin TONS. They freak. They had no idea what was
> going on. John Q. Palmuser loves the basic Palm
> interface.
First you say 'some', then you say 'TONS'. So from this statement you mean TONS to be some. Which to me, isn't really 'TONS' at all. You're quite confusing.
Anyway, if you're the hanging with the type of crowd who would cringe at a simple interface such as Launch 'em, then I'd REALLY like to know what sort of "power users" YOU hang out with.
> Besides, I'm sure that if Handera could do Virtual
> Graffiti with PalmOS 3.5, they can do it with PalmOS
> 5.x
Finally... a reasonable statment. *applause* So you CAN think after all!
RE: K.I.S.S.
You obviously don't think with your arrogant, smug attitude.
Don't extrapolate your tiny sliver of the world and think that everyone is like you.
Soft graffiti is good. Choice is good. You are a Palm fascist.
RE: K.I.S.S.
Why does it need preemptive multitasking? Memory protection? Even, shudder, ARM? What my 710 needs is to be smaller, and to last longer. Those CE guys in the office, showing off their 3d car racing games and 'multimedia clips'. They do it once, then probably never use them again...
I've mixed feelings about all this...
RE: K.I.S.S.
Well when u got preemptive multitasking u probably need a faster processor :) coz preemptive multitasking = no applcation can dominate the OS.
as for memory protection ... when u have preemptive multitasking u'll need it ~~
RE: K.I.S.S.
I browse the web on my Clie through my cell phone, and it's usefull for occasionally finding directions, or saying hello on a chat room I use. I'm not going to be using it for hours in the office... Anyway, the event driven nature of the current PalmOS is not entirely incapable of checking for email in the background.
Sill... I guess this has all been said before!
Don't get me wrong... I love a decent OS (I stuck with the Amiga for a long time because of it's lovely preemptive multitasking whilst Windows and MacOS only drempt of decent multitasking), I just want a 'pocket shaped' device for the pocket...
RE: K.I.S.S.
I have a HE330, and am known as the "afficianado(sp)" at work. Folks come to me for advice
on what Palm to buy. I ask lots of questions, and tend to be unbiased (except I push away
from PPC). When I show them all a Quicksheet spreadsheet in landscape with the grafitti area
minimized, their eyes pop out and they go WOW. Especially the business folks who don't care
at all about techie stuff. So there are lots of folks who want Virtual grafitti, not just techies.
Of course, the next thing they ask is, "Can I put my PowerPoint slides on this thing?" and,
"can I display this on an overhead projector?" So, is Handera or Sony going to come out
with a video out port on their devices anytime soon? And when can I get a PowerPoint
compatible application?
RE: K.I.S.S.
RE: K.I.S.S.
>> (Multithreaded OS, direct access to ARM CPU, lots of
>> other crap I don't understand, etc, blah blah blah)
>
> You're right. Palm should just do what YOU want and > not what the majority of users or developers might
> want. Just YOU.
Wow. Where in my sentence did I ever say Palm should do anything? I've been attacked for criticizing a company's choices before, but this is the first time I've been attacked for stating what I personally feel indifferent about. Very strange.
>> "You're right. A ton of power users would kill for
>> soft graffitti. I know I would."
>
> Please elaborate on what you mean by a "ton of power > users." Of all the ones I know, none of them do, > myself included.
You're right. Palm should just do what YOU want and not what the majority of users or developers might
want. Just YOU.
Hmmm, I wonder where I got that from?
-Raj
RE: K.I.S.S.
That's wrong. Sony added new features but they kept the KISS philosophy by choosing the Palm OS over Pocket PC. Yes, their devices added high-res screens and, in one case, an MP3 player, but how did this disrupt the simple aspect of using the device? It didn't. I don't think anyone's arguing against adding new features (hardware, software, or OS-wise), just that they need to be careful not to disrupt speed or usability in the process. Furthermore, if they jump whole hog into the high-end market and ignore the low-cost market (which it seems pretty clear that their *not* doing, fortunately), they may make a small living off of the geeks and high-end users, but they'd lose out. The low-cost market is where it's at.
Scott
RE: K.I.S.S.
I understand most people in this forum are geeks
but I'm sure 95% of palm users want SIMPLICITY,
afterall thats the secret of PalmOS succes right?
who cares about multitasking, multimedia, thats BS!
if they want a desktop wannabee, they shoukld get one..
RE: K.I.S.S.
you don't get the point, Sony is very clever, the Clies
keep and "improve" the simplicity and usabnility by adding a better screen, jog-dial, IR.. and still using the PALM OS!! That's the key for succes in the pda market nowadays.
RE: K.I.S.S.
> PowerPoint slides on this thing?" and, "can I display
> this on an overhead projector?" So, is Handera or Sony
> going to come out with a video out port on their
> devices anytime soon? And when can I get a PowerPoint
> compatible application?
Margi has Presenter-to-Go and a CF color video adaptor that will be out March 1st on the HandEra 330 and TRGpro for just this purpose.
http://www.palmloyal.com/article.php?sid=640
RE: K.I.S.S.
http://www.margi.com/news/pressreleases/pr_handera.html
RE: K.I.S.S.
you don't get the point, Sony is very clever, the Clies
keep and "improve" the simplicity and usabnility by adding a better screen, jog-dial, IR.. and still using the PALM OS!! That's the key for succes in the pda market nowadays.
-----------------------------------------
Success ? 6% is success ? Yes, it is a nice jump from 1 to 6%, however, Palm STILL happens to be a tad more successfull than Sony with well over 50%. OK, they lost market share, but that STILL does NOT mean that they are less successfull (check actual sales data to define success).
Sony has added worse buttons for one.
The IR happens to be better on a Palm M505 for example
The screen, you are right, very nice, though I personally like my M505 screen enough so that I do not feel the need to trade in for a Sony. (read this again, I like my screen, I did NOT bash the Sony screen).
Jogdial ? I hear many positive comments, but I tried it out in a few shops and must say that I wouldn't personally use it a lot. Does this add complexity ? No. Simplification ? Yes, if you use it a lot (I guess).
So, Sony is successful in its own right by having grown from 1 to 6% but they are not the most successful company out there.
Other comments on the virtual grafiti screen: I really like the idea of it, however, having tried the Handera for a while, I found the Handera's implementation very sluggish. If they can improve on that AND get broad developer support, then yes, if it is going to be the same as the current Handera ? No thanks.
What I am trying to say is: The key to success is STILL defined by Palm as is evidenced by their market share. It remains to be seen if Sony can grow more than 10% market share in the end. If they want to increase their share, it is vitally important to get into the business market. Let's face it: what company is interested in their employees having multimedia capabilities, such as MP3 and video-playback with loud speakers/good sound on their PDA, which is intended as a BUSINESS TOOL ? Clearly, there cannot be many companies out there like that. Customer support remains a very important purchasing factor of which Sony is not known to be very good. (sorry, no personal experience here, just from what I have read so don't flame me too bad if this is incorrect).
PPC has a market
Sony has its market
Handspring had its market
Palm has its market
Noone can say what 'the market' is. Too many people with different objectives.
As for PalmOnArm: The only clear advantage i see is the better-running of the larger programs. Other than that, I don't see myself upgrading.
I for one will not buy a Sony Clie until they either implement SD/MMC or CF INTEGRATED support. Memorystick is not in my purview. I love the simplicity of the Palm. Others love their Sony. Isn't choice a wonderful thing ?
RE: K.I.S.S.
CLIE - Computer Linking Information & Entertainment
(I think that's what it is)
I work in a government office as tech support (gah) and I see alot of people walking around with Clie's. Some have got MP3 support, others remote control and nicer speaker, etc. They've got memory sticks loaded with mp3s, pictures, and/or movies. Keep in mind this is a government office.
Sure, there's no place for this kind of stuff in an office environment, but with government and big companies, they have a policy of buying these Palm PDAs for employees. The employees choose what they want, and the office pays for it. From what I've seen, if an employee wants a Palm PDA, there's no questions asked. If they want a PocketPC, it raises some eyebrows.
As long as Sony doesn't turn the Palm into a PocketPC, this trend will continue. They're keeping the simple Palm interface, which the bureaucracy likes, and adding "tiny little" features to slip under the boss's radar and appeal to the employees.
It's perfect.
RE: K.I.S.S.
totally agree, i am an internal medicine resident
and 3 of my co-residents recently switched to Sony (615) becouse it has more features/better quality for the price, the hi-rez color screen is easier to see during the long wards, the louder speaker is a nice touch; especially during noisy times and the 16MB
is very handy.
JL
Chicago
bluetooth palms?
RE: bluetooth palms?
More info on OS 5 and OS 6!!
It appears the major transition will take, and I quote, "2 YEARS."
RE: More info on OS 5 and OS 6!!
http://www.tomshardware.com/technews/technews-20020206.html#0413
RE: More info on OS 5 and OS 6!!
be the really big deal, Palm will introduce APIs to
deal with the big endian to little endian transition".
What's up with that?? One of the great things about
ARM chips is that they can be switched from little to
big endian at will. Why in the world would Palm make
a bunch of extra work for everyone by switching
endianness from what it was before?? There's no reason
they couldn't have stayed with big endian...
RE: More info on OS 5 and OS 6!!
It's called network byte order. If they have network support (TCP/IP, Ethernet) the bits have to arranged properly.
The following function calls on Unix systems do it. I'm sure Windows Mac have something similiar.
htonl(3), htons(3), ntohl(3), ntohs(3)
Here's the manual for FreeBSD:
Where's Godot?!
Yes, I see the sense of what they are offering as OS5 to transition everyone to ARM. But I can see why Sony put "more powerful hardware" at the *end* of its priority list. Going to ARM immediately just doesn't make sense.
So much for the PalmOS 5 Wish List! It will now be a 5.5 or even 6.0 (or knowing Palm, *10.0*) Wish List.
As for that CLIE that was briefly shown -- hey, it has a built-in camera! DAMN! I forgot to put that in my Predictions article! (Others know I had said that Sony would put a camera in the CLIE. But will I be believed here now? -- noooooo!) But what is strange about that CLIE proto is that the app buttons are on the lid with the keyboard! And there doesn't seem to be a dedicated hard Graffiti area (good!). See photo at ASCII24 Japanese article at:
Latest Comments
- I got one -Tuckermaclain
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- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -richf
- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -dmitrygr
- Palm phone on HDblog -palmato
- Palm PVG100 -hgoldner
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I want one
http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/img_PS02_Intel_Xscale_L.JPG
I just need bigger pockets!