Comments on: Palm OS 5 to Have Full Browser and VPN
Article Comments
(75 comments)
The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.
Comments Closed
This article is no longer accepting new comments.
RE: A little off topic...
And anyway - what specifically is wrong with VFS?
Cheers
Russell
---
russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk
RE: A little off topic...
Before bring up the tired point that memory cards should work like RAM, I'm going to say I've tried all the apps that are supposed to do this. I found them all slow, buggy, and only worked on some apps. While PalmSource might be able to fix the bugs, it will still be slow. If that was the best way to handle this, your PC would have almost no RAM and make use of its huge harddrive. The fact that a much more mature OS doesn't do this should be a clue that it isn't the way to go.
Do you really want to throw out all the apps that support VFS and start over from scratch? Memory cards are just now starting to become useful.
RE: A little off topic...
Cheers
Russell
---
russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk
RE: A little off topic...
It's not integrated into the OS. People should not have to get third-party patches to seamlessly integrate the card into the OS (and even then, "seamless" is not!). Programs should not care if they are on a card or RAM to run. All programs should see their associated files that reside on a card. And within those programs, we should be able to arrange files in folders and sub-folders. Hey, this is all basic stuff we are used to on desktops. To not offer it on a palmtop is shortsighted (OK, I *want* to say inexcusably stupid!)
You are the one making the case that VFS is good. Tell me how. All I see is that it is s---!
RE: A little off topic...
VFS is still fairly new and developers are still working out how to use it. Time is what is needed, not dumping VFS.
RE: A little off topic...
RE: A little off topic...
The best Palm could do is provide an Open/Close dialog. I doubt they'll do this as the last thing PalmSource want is an OS with Open/Close dialogs - they're horrible things requiring the user to have an intimate knowledge of the working of the file system.
If specific applcations require the ability for users to be able to do file management, they can provide that. For most apps, just putting items in categories is great for users - with the app dealing with where the files are actually stored.
As for native OS PiDirect / MSMount functionality - it's not something most people need. Most people only store data on cards - eBooks, backups and so on. The need for seemless applications working directly off them is not really needed for most people. For most people the way the OS copies apps and their databases into RAM and then runs them is fine.
Cheers
Russell
---
russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk
RE: A little off topic...
Mike Cane also started a thread a few weeks back in ClieSource regarding how files are actually stored in the Memory Stick. The discussion was interesting. As a gist, it seemed like the Memory Stick (as with hard disks) store files per 8k/16k 'blocks'. Thus, 824 files of 1K size will consume 13.1MB in a 32MB MS!
Here's the link:
http://www.cliesource.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?number=22&thread=000099
I know this is not a VFS topic, but initially, I thought it was VFS related. Can anyone verify if SD/MMC work he same? TIA.
RE: A little off topic...
I think both MS and SD use the FAT12 file system. That means there are 2^12 (4096) blocks that information can be saved in. So for a 32MiB card each block is 8KiB big. So no matter how small a file is, the smallest space it can occupy is 8KiB.
This is the same way as the desktop counterparts work. (FAT16 from WIN95 and FAT32 from WIN98 onwards). If you right click on a file in Windows Explorer and choose properties you'll see 2 file sizes given - the size and the size on disk.
Cheers
Russell
RE: A little off topic...
Very off topic...
No, PalmSource shouldn't change VFS. What Mike wants is important to 1 person in 10 million. Mike is just being a squeaky wheel. Doing something that will cause PalmSource to have rewrite a chunk of OS 5 so Mike Cane and only Mike Cane can keep hundreds of small files on his handheld is ridiculous.
Sorry Mike, not a personal slam but there are important things that need PalmSource's attention. This isn't one of them.
RE: A little off topic...
The issue is really the 'cluster' size (minimun file size) which is separate from the FAT size, but the combination of the 2 determine the max size supported. FAT12 with 4K clusters allows for a max of 16MB (2^12 * 4096), FAT12 with 16K clusters gives a max of 64MB. I think 128MB cards (mem stick, SD, SmartMedia, or CF are all FAT16, typically with 16K clusters for a max size of 1GB)
Some format utilities for DOS/Windows would allow you to format a memory card different ways. You could format an 8MB card using FAT16 and 64K clusters, but it would be very wasteful for storing lots of small files.
RE: A little off topic...
Massive databases of the kind doctors use aren't the sold reason to have a palmtop -- as you well know.
It's very easy to acquire over 1,000 files.
RE: A little off topic...
RE: A little off topic...
I myself have no particular attachment to the system.
Can you explain in what way VFS per se is flawed?
As has been said, most your criticisms seem to apply more to the implementation (or lack thereof) of VFS than to VFS itself.
RE: A little off topic...
Cheers
Russell
---
russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk
RE: A little off topic...
OK so you say the problem isn't with VFS. Maybe that's true. But hell, you'd think that even the PalmOS would support VFS with it's own apps.
RE: A little off topic...
I have resisted dragging in the Forbidden Word, but now I must: PPC. PPC has a real filesystem -- so should PalmOS. Maybe it is a responsibility of third parties to use it correctly, but geez, hasn't it been out for a good year now? Where's the flood of good-VFS-using apps? AFAIK, only WordSmith does it right, from what I've read and have been told.
RE: A little off topic...
So Mike - what you'd like to see is a full File/Foldersystem implemented in PalmOS for both the RAM and expansion cards?
That would be a majow overhaul of not only the OS code, but the OS ideology. Palm wanted to get away from files and folders. They make for very nonintuative applications when you have to start dealing with all those sorts of details.
Apps can if they want provide that sort of functionality to users, as Wordsmith or whatever does.
Cheers
Russell
RE: A little off topic...
For years, the only way for apps to store data has been the DataManager API. DataManager is what manipulates RAM databases and is responsible for things like categories. Though primitive, the DataManager API is quite focused and gives applications a single, clear, well defined way to work with databases.
When Sony added MemoryStick to the Clie, they needed an API for apps to access it. The result was VFS. Unlike the DataManager, the VFSManager provides very little "abstraction". Applications using VFS have to deal with lots of low-level details like directories, opening files, seeking to specific locations, resizing files, etc. Though this does provide a lot of flexibility, it's totally out of character with the other PalmOS APIs. For Sony, VFS was really a "hack" to get MS support on Palm apps. It was not designed by people with an overall "vision" for the OS and it shows.
VFS doesn't provide a "uniform" way for apps to keep data in files, so developers are forced to invent their own model of how files will be presented to users within the application. Some apps like Wordsmith end up with a pretty good implementation. Other apps don't. In any case, consistancy between apps is virtually impossible because most of the file interaction is built into the app and not the OS.
Of course the VFS APIs themselves have a wide range of defficiencies. That's not something users are ever exposed to, but it does complicate and slow down the process of creating a VFS aware application. With a better API, developers could focus more on usability and less on the nuts and bolts of just getting data in and out of files.
What would be nice is if PalmSource added some functions to the DataManager that would mask the intracacies of the filesystem from the application. It would not be that hard for them to do and would decrease the effort required to add VFS support to a Palm app by an order of magnitude. However I don't expect to see improvements like that until the release after PalmOS 5 at the earliest.
- Dave Kessler, President - Kopsis, Inc.
RE: A little off topic...
But that doesn't work, either. Sooner or later people will want to have folders and sub-folders, instead of just one big glob.
I don't see the fear! Everyone knows how to use a filesystem on their PC or Mac!
RE: A little off topic...
You don't need complicated file system management to read eBooks or listen to MP3s. You just put your eBooks on the card and then let your eBook reader manage them into categories. Why should a user be bothered with how their books are saved on the file system?
Lots of people know how to use files and folders, true. Doesn't mean it's a good thing. Lots of people useed to know how to manage them using DOS. Doesn't mean it's a good thing.
Cheers
Russell
---
russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk
RE: A little off topic...
They did it well before WordSmith finally came out with it.
RE: A little off topic...
Unfortunately, the other half of the problem is that people don't understand the complexity of the problem they are asking for a solution on. Get a couple REMOVABLE hard drives for your PC, put all of your programs and data on them, and you wouldn't get a very Palm-like experience either.
RE: A little off topic...
No there are at least 2 prolly quite a bit more and i would also like to see some architecture to the vfs system i have too many field jobs where i have to refer to notes, timetables, spess. ect. to really have to sort through them on the fly
"obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off your goal"
Henry Ford.
RE: A little off topic...
RE: A little off topic...
> require an overhaul -- but isn't that what PalmOS *6*
> will actually be?
I am at a loss as to what you think a filesystem is. VFS currently allows you to access and modify the filesystem on expansion cards. From reading Palm's docs, in theory you could add in support to access networked filesystems (Samba, NFS, whatever) under VFS as well. What do you expect a filesystem to do???
RE: A little off topic...
Let's look at the solution now. The user just wants seamless access to their files. So they have PiDirect and MSMount and want to start using it. Ok, can I move the app to external memory. I can? Good. OK, now what about my database? Well, is it read-only or modifiable. Hmm, I'm not sure, what does that mean. {Explanation} OK, well then it's modifiable. Then you can't move it to PiDirect or MSMount. But PowerRun can do it for you, although it will be slower. What about the native VFS through the launcher or 3rd-party launchers. Well, you can move the app, but not the databases, and it will be slower than PiDirect/MSMount.
I think the general idea of the earlier posts complaining about VFS is that this whole process just takes too much thought and is very hard to comprehend for those that aren't good with computers/file systems. I would guess that the majority of people on here have very workable solutions, but I bet a lot of people don't use external memory for anything besides backups. Plus, I've heard from more than a few people that their devices with external memory are more confusing and not as stable as the previous devices they had used.
What I think people want is a system where this is all transparent and they can put their apps and databases anywhere they please and the app will run just as well.
RE: A little off topic...
KGragert
IMA ;-)
RE: A little off topic...
Great for small files, yeah, but when you have large books or docs to open and you don't HAVE that free space on your PDA, then you're outta luck.
That shouldn't be the case. At all.
You complain it runs slower than in ram - well, yeah, of course. Try editing a 30 meg file in photoshop off a zip disk. Slow? you betcha. That's not the point.
You want it faster, put it in ram. For the rest of the users who want to fill up both RAM and memory cards, we should be able to as well.
RE: A little off topic...
The files placed in the default launcher folder or wherever show up in the categories like always.
Files in different subfolders could be accessed by file --> open.
iSilo is like this now. Only difference is it copies that file to RAM which sucks, but at least you can do a simple file --> open.
Users of the built in method and categories wouldn't even have to know about the ability to do sub-folders etc.
But for those who do want it...
RE: A little off topic...
Also, all VFS haters should really try PiDirect. It is a nice alternative. I have a Smartmedia Memplug, so I use VFS for some purposes and PiDirect for others. I find PiDirect to be several orders of magnitude faster for launching applications from the card. MAybe Palm should license this technology for PalmOS 5.1!
Doug
RE: A little off topic...
Maybe if Ed changed the IMA logon to say that, more people would register :)
Doug
RE: A little off topic...
Cheers
Russell
RE: A little off topic...
-RSC
RE: A little off topic...
why licence
RE: why licence
"Based on NCSA Mosaic. NCSA Mosaic(TM); was developed at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign."
RE: why licence
RE: why licence
net positive is a good brower; but pdas need the ability to read things like javascript [which netpositive didnt do really well the last time i checked] and the ability to use macromedia flash's plugin [i left Be when the flash player first came out...good idea...sad it didnt work well]
i say if they are going to use netpositive then at least bump it up to use java/javascript and be at lesat as good as IE in terms of compliance with the other web standards. it dont help to have a brower that is only as god as NS3 for sites that are like this one.
~twizza
RE: why licence
RE: why licence
-webgremlin
RE: why licence
PLEASE make the VPN client allow PPTP connections!
Unfortunatley, the Palm OS cannot connect to a PPTP server. Movian VPN is great for the PalmOS, but only provides a client to a few proprietary VPN solutions. Palm (or someone!) needs to provide a PPTP client to truly offer a mobile solution for corporate clients.
Doug
PPTP connections!
RE: PLEASE make the VPN client allow PPTP connections!
Palm OS to boast full Web browser
The last Bluetooth application, which Palm also recently previewed publicly at PalmSource 2002, is dubbed Cambio. Cambio allows Palm owners to exchange software between their handhelds, and also assign ratings and comments to software to create something of a P2P network for sharing applications.
from 'Palm dabbles with Bluetooth'
http://www.infosync.n@/show.php?id=1432
RE: Palm OS to boast full Web browser
The story stated that Palm were making a proxyless browser. What new information are you bringing here?
Oh, and BTW, WebClipping is perfectly capable of opening pages not designed for Palm - it's just there's no menu option to allow you to do it.
And obviously any browser is capable of using a bluetooth connection to access pages. Web browsers don't care how they connect to the net - they just care that they are.
Cheers
Russell
the browser
Will the i705 and others OS 5 compatible?
RE: Will the i705 and others OS 5 compatible?
OS5 will on on ARM processors.
i705 does not have an ARM processor.
figure it out.
RE: Will the i705 and others OS 5 compatible?
There will be no way to upgrade your Palm to 5.0. That said, keep in mind that 5.0 is a transitional release, so I don't know that there is any real need to wait for the release if you're thinking of getting a Palm now.
Samsung has new products coming out that are not based on ARM and thus won't run on 5.0 and the same holds true for other vendors as well. Besides, you could be waiting for up to a year before a new device ships with 5.0 Is it worth the wait?
RE: Will the i705 and others OS 5 compatible?
RE: Will the i705 and others OS 5 compatible?
Now of course ARM OS 5.0 will have some speed advantages, will run multimedia apps, and will support native 320x320 screens which will be nice...
SD modem card anytime soon?
RE: SD modem card anytime soon?
Of course then you couldn't hook your keyboard up to it while on-line.
RE: SD modem card anytime soon?
full internet web browsing on OS4
RE: full internet web browsing on OS4
There are several apps available now. The most well-known is Handspring's Blazer:
http://www.handspring.com/software/blazer_overview.jhtml
You might also check out Palmscape, which will soon be replaced by Xiino:
http://isv07.ilinx.co.jp/en/
---
News Editor
Opera
--
"Life is what you experience between racing games"
Galley
OS 5 Linux
About as likely as MS announcing support for Linux. Too bad.
RE: OS 5 Linux
RE: OS 5 Linux
I like the fact that Palm took over BeOS. The BEOS engineering team there got it right. Efficient, simple and powerful. And hopefully that's the path that PalmOS will head in.
OS 5 contra Linux
True now - but a lot of very clever people work on the Linux Zaurus 5500 currently.
That they will be a lot faster in bringing a "Joe sixpack compatible LinuxDA" to the PDA world then Palm with its OS5 and ARM endless story, is for sure.
For a price Mike Mace will get a lighter shade of pale on his chin. And it will give Palm a run for its money - very soon...
RE: OS 5 Linux
> That they will be a lot faster in bringing a "Joe sixpack compatible LinuxDA" to the PDA
> world then Palm with its OS5 and ARM endless story, is for sure.
Yes and a lot of other "very clever" people are working on numerous other Linux variants for PDAs as well. Maybe some year, they will standardize on something useful, but I'm fairly certain that will turn into a much more endless story than Palm's plans.
RE: OS 5 Linux
My point is that the PDA market is owned by Palm/PalmOS with the only eroding factor being that of ol' money bags (Bill and Co.) in the form of the Pocket PC. I dont think you Linux people have a shred of realism about the magnitude of success (ie marketing $$$$) that would be needed to even garner a fraction of the market. Just look at PDA OS's that have been around longer like EPOCH.
RE: OS 5 Linux
Dark Horse for Palm OS 5
By: Jørgen Sundgot, Saturday, 09.02.02 18:33 GMT
When Sharp's Linux-based Zaurus PDA hits the U.S. and Europe, software developed by old-timer Amiga will provide that old black magic.
Sharp's Zaurus PDA is the only PDA with major corporation muscle behind it - but is it enough to make it succeed?
Today, the situation is quite different from what it once was. Amiga's AmigaDE technology allows developers to write and port applications to a new multi-media operating system which is hardware agnostic. Applications based on the OS can run unchanged on x86, PowerPC, M Core, ARM, StrongARM, MIPS R3000, R4000, R5000, SH 3, SH4, and NEC V850 processors, while the Amiga OS can run hosted on other operating systems such as Linux, Embedded Linux, Windows 95, 98, 2000, NT, CE and QNX4.
RE: OS 5 Linux
Im glad to see the best OS that ever was live on in some form, but it ain't going anywhere but nicheville in the handheld market.
Latest Comments
- I got one -Tuckermaclain
- RE: Don't we have this already? -Tuckermaclain
- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -richf
- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -dmitrygr
- Palm phone on HDblog -palmato
- Palm PVG100 -hgoldner
- RE: Like Deja Vu -PacManFoo
- Like Deja Vu -T_W
A little off topic...