Palm OS 5 to Have Full Browser and VPN

Are you kidding?! You are kidding, right?! Hve you USED VFS?!

Yes. What is wrong with it?

How many files do you have on a card?!

It's not integrated into the OS. People should not have to get third-party patches to seamlessly integrate the card into the OS (and even then, "seamless" is not!). Programs should not care if they are on a card or RAM to run. All programs should see their associated files that reside on a card. And within those programs, we should be able to arrange files in folders and sub-folders. Hey, this is all basic stuff we are used to on desktops. To not offer it on a palmtop is shortsighted (OK, I *want* to say inexcusably stupid!)

You are the one making the case that VFS is good. Tell me how. All I see is that it is s---!

Based on my experiences with VFS...it sucks! It is very inconsistent and poorly implemented. I would prefer to see full blown File support built into the OS.

A little more off-topic:

Mike Cane also started a thread a few weeks back in ClieSource regarding how files are actually stored in the Memory Stick. The discussion was interesting. As a gist, it seemed like the Memory Stick (as with hard disks) store files per 8k/16k 'blocks'. Thus, 824 files of 1K size will consume 13.1MB in a 32MB MS!

Here's the link:
http://www.cliesource.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?number=22&thread=000099

I know this is not a VFS topic, but initially, I thought it was VFS related. Can anyone verify if SD/MMC work he same? TIA.

Reggie
http://www.cliesource.com

Hey, Ed! Are you still going to do an article comparing MS, CF, MMC, and SD block sizes?!

Actually, the block size on all memory cards is dependent upon what DOS (and now Windows) determines is appropriate based upon the size of the card. It all goes back to how DOS used FAT12 and FAT16 on floppy and then hard disks.
The issue is really the 'cluster' size (minimun file size) which is separate from the FAT size, but the combination of the 2 determine the max size supported. FAT12 with 4K clusters allows for a max of 16MB (2^12 * 4096), FAT12 with 16K clusters gives a max of 64MB. I think 128MB cards (mem stick, SD, SmartMedia, or CF are all FAT16, typically with 16K clusters for a max size of 1GB)
Some format utilities for DOS/Windows would allow you to format a memory card different ways. You could format an 8MB card using FAT16 and 64K clusters, but it would be very wasteful for storing lots of small files.

%$#@ typos. Sold = sole. Ryan, Ed, let us fix typos! -- or at least registered users (hint to all the IMAs).

Mike - the days of the IMAs is numbered...

Cheers
Russell

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russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

And that number is 666?

I have resisted dragging in the Forbidden Word, but now I must: PPC. PPC has a real filesystem -- so should PalmOS. Maybe it is a responsibility of third parties to use it correctly, but geez, hasn't it been out for a good year now? Where's the flood of good-VFS-using apps? AFAIK, only WordSmith does it right, from what I've read and have been told.

You are an IMA :-) Unregistered users get the name "I. M. Anonymous".

So Mike - what you'd like to see is a full File/Foldersystem implemented in PalmOS for both the RAM and expansion cards?

That would be a majow overhaul of not only the OS code, but the OS ideology. Palm wanted to get away from files and folders. They make for very nonintuative applications when you have to start dealing with all those sorts of details.

Apps can if they want provide that sort of functionality to users, as Wordsmith or whatever does.

Cheers
Russell

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russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

There is a *lot* of confusion about what VFS is and isn't. The real problem with VFS is not its capabilities but its API. The API (for those not familiar with the term) is the collection of OS functions that applications can use to perform filesystem operations.

For years, the only way for apps to store data has been the DataManager API. DataManager is what manipulates RAM databases and is responsible for things like categories. Though primitive, the DataManager API is quite focused and gives applications a single, clear, well defined way to work with databases.

When Sony added MemoryStick to the Clie, they needed an API for apps to access it. The result was VFS. Unlike the DataManager, the VFSManager provides very little "abstraction". Applications using VFS have to deal with lots of low-level details like directories, opening files, seeking to specific locations, resizing files, etc. Though this does provide a lot of flexibility, it's totally out of character with the other PalmOS APIs. For Sony, VFS was really a "hack" to get MS support on Palm apps. It was not designed by people with an overall "vision" for the OS and it shows.

VFS doesn't provide a "uniform" way for apps to keep data in files, so developers are forced to invent their own model of how files will be presented to users within the application. Some apps like Wordsmith end up with a pretty good implementation. Other apps don't. In any case, consistancy between apps is virtually impossible because most of the file interaction is built into the app and not the OS.

Of course the VFS APIs themselves have a wide range of defficiencies. That's not something users are ever exposed to, but it does complicate and slow down the process of creating a VFS aware application. With a better API, developers could focus more on usability and less on the nuts and bolts of just getting data in and out of files.

What would be nice is if PalmSource added some functions to the DataManager that would mask the intracacies of the filesystem from the application. It would not be that hard for them to do and would decrease the effort required to add VFS support to a Palm app by an order of magnitude. However I don't expect to see improvements like that until the release after PalmOS 5 at the earliest.

- Dave Kessler, President - Kopsis, Inc.

RAM will of course increase with time - and I'd say for the forseeable future most people will be able to fit all their apps in their system RAM. (OK - not people like me - I have MSs all over the place with apps all over them - but I'm the exception, not the rule).

You don't need complicated file system management to read eBooks or listen to MP3s. You just put your eBooks on the card and then let your eBook reader manage them into categories. Why should a user be bothered with how their books are saved on the file system?

Lots of people know how to use files and folders, true. Doesn't mean it's a good thing. Lots of people useed to know how to manage them using DOS. Doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Cheers
Russell

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russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk

VFS works perfectly fine for what it is designed for: accessing files on one or more volumes. What Palm has done a poor job of doing is providing good, consistent examples of what the user experience should be like for people accessing multiple datasets on multiple volumes. Of course, I'm not sure what a good example of that would be anyhow.

Unfortunately, the other half of the problem is that people don't understand the complexity of the problem they are asking for a solution on. Get a couple REMOVABLE hard drives for your PC, put all of your programs and data on them, and you wouldn't get a very Palm-like experience either.

Russell states that adding a filesystem to PalmOS would require an overhaul -- but isn't that what PalmOS *6* will actually be?

I think the general consumer, myself included, may be confusing the differences between what's in the OS, what is handled by the apps, and what is handled by the hardware. But I think the general complaint is that people want to store all their files and databases and not have to think about it.

Let's look at the solution now. The user just wants seamless access to their files. So they have PiDirect and MSMount and want to start using it. Ok, can I move the app to external memory. I can? Good. OK, now what about my database? Well, is it read-only or modifiable. Hmm, I'm not sure, what does that mean. {Explanation} OK, well then it's modifiable. Then you can't move it to PiDirect or MSMount. But PowerRun can do it for you, although it will be slower. What about the native VFS through the launcher or 3rd-party launchers. Well, you can move the app, but not the databases, and it will be slower than PiDirect/MSMount.

I think the general idea of the earlier posts complaining about VFS is that this whole process just takes too much thought and is very hard to comprehend for those that aren't good with computers/file systems. I would guess that the majority of people on here have very workable solutions, but I bet a lot of people don't use external memory for anything besides backups. Plus, I've heard from more than a few people that their devices with external memory are more confusing and not as stable as the previous devices they had used.

What I think people want is a system where this is all transparent and they can put their apps and databases anywhere they please and the app will run just as well.

My big issue with VFS is that files stored on the card are just copied into ram to run.

Great for small files, yeah, but when you have large books or docs to open and you don't HAVE that free space on your PDA, then you're outta luck.

That shouldn't be the case. At all.

You complain it runs slower than in ram - well, yeah, of course. Try editing a 30 meg file in photoshop off a zip disk. Slow? you betcha. That's not the point.

You want it faster, put it in ram. For the rest of the users who want to fill up both RAM and memory cards, we should be able to as well.

Mike cane mentioned above that "PPC had a real File System". Can you run apps off of the CF cards on PPC? I did not know that you could without third party programs. I have not used PPC much, but when I was working on an Ipaq for a customer, I discovered that you could store files and such on a CF card, but not the programs themselves. Am I wrong?
Also, all VFS haters should really try PiDirect. It is a nice alternative. I have a Smartmedia Memplug, so I use VFS for some purposes and PiDirect for others. I find PiDirect to be several orders of magnitude faster for launching applications from the card. MAybe Palm should license this technology for PalmOS 5.1!
Doug

Mike - yes PalmOS 6 (or 'the next major upgrade to the OS' a PalmSource likes to say, not giving a number) is a major overhaul of the working of the OS, with a new event model and who knows what else. Maybe then would be a time when they could make changes to the way applications on external cards are handled. But I wouldn't hold your breath.

Cheers
Russell

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russ@russb.fsnet.co.uk