Comments on: Sony Demoing Palm OS 5 (Updated)

Sony is putting on in Tokyo this week a show called Dream World, designed to show off its latest technology. Included in this is a demonstration of a handheld running Palm OS 5. PC Watch, a Japanese website, has a picture. Unfortunately, no other details are available.

Update: A Sony spokesperson emphasizes that this is more of a demonstration of the capabilities of Palm OS 5 on an ARM-based processor than a sneak peak of a future hardware release. According to him, it is premature to draw any conclusions about the hardware features of future handhelds based on this.

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Hmmmm, clie

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 6:58:50 PM #
Sweet, good to see OS5 devices materialising.
where is it!!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 7:01:26 PM #
I want it,I need it, and I can't wait much longer...........................

I want one!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 7:02:02 PM #
I want one, I want one, I want one!!!
RE: Hmmmm, clie
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 7:07:50 PM #
humm, materialising...until in the hand...
WOW
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 7:10:43 PM #
I WANT IT!!!!
ED
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 7:43:58 PM #
I LOVE YOU!!!! Nothing else to say :)
HAPPY!
kempokaraterulz @ 9/11/2002 8:00:37 PM #
Im so happy i cant even think of something smart to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW!

_______________________________________

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

RE: Hmmmm, clie
Ed @ 9/11/2002 10:32:50 PM #
Sorry, I'm going through these threads trying to keep people's hopes from outrunning what this article really says. Sony has not announced that its OS 5 handheld will have the same shape as a NR70V. Instead, it is demonstrating OS5's multimedia capabilities.

I'm also not saying Sony won't release an OS 5 model with a clamshell shape and a hi-res+ screen. I hope they are, but I don't know. If I did know, I'd tell you.

I just don't want you all from getting the wrong idea from this article. Please take it for what it is: Sony has hi-res+ and full-screen video running under OS 5. That's good news, even if it isn't the complete product announcement you are hoping for.

---
News Editor

RE: Hmmmm, clie
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 9:59:58 AM #
I understand that. However, as you can see, the reactions of these posts is favorable to the Nr70V formfactor with ARM and OS5. You better believe that Sony knows this and if they can fit all of the bells and whistles into the casing of the old NR70V, the form will be very close....probabbly better.

Also, with 320x480, Palm is in deep doo-doo if they release a 320x320.

RE: Hmmmm, clie
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 4:23:29 PM #
I am suspicious. They way the demo unit is displayed surrounded by that frame, I am guessing that only the screen is showing because that box/frame behind it is filled with misc. guts too big to fit in the case.
RE: Hmmmm, clie
cybertek @ 9/12/2002 11:12:59 PM #
hey, look at me!!! i'm an easily lead automiton....I LOOOOOOOVE SONY!!

give me a break! you guys are drooling over sony's scraps, this product is never going to see production. and when a product w/ os5 finally comes out its going to have crap that no one needs...i mean really, virtual graphity is all nice in theory, but you'd figure sony has engineer's smart enough that can get the entire screen from refreshing w/ the launch of any app.

...and before all you die-hard sony fans jump to some futile arguement, lemme save you the trouble - this problem isn't caused by the palm os.

RE: Hmmmm, clie
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 12:15:11 AM #
Of course it's not caused by Palm OS, this feature doesn't exist on Palm OS so how could it be Palm OS's fault.

And refreshing the whole screen including the virtual grafitti area is not really such a big deal.

RE: Hmmmm, clie
cybertek @ 9/14/2002 2:35:32 AM #
yes you anonymous coward, its clearly not palm os's fault why its flickering, i was simply stating this so you morons wouldn't blame palm os.

RE: Hmmmm, clie
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2002 4:01:02 AM #
lol and you are not Anonymous just so you can look stupid with your real name ?? O no it's just a nickname/handle ... You are as anonymous as anybody here ...

os5 device from sony

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 7:06:42 PM #
i made a comment to our sony rep at work about them releasing 8 pdas this year and asked how many they'd have for the year... he just kinda laughed and said a dozen. i said he had to be kidding, but then he reminded me that os5 is coming and said that it would be a dozen for the year. i'd guess a nr70, nr70v, t665, and a t615 replacement (yes i know the sj30 replaced the t615 - but not likely that the sj30 would disappear *that* quickly)

Wait a minute!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 7:24:50 PM #
I love the NR70v shape and did not buy because it was OS4 and now you telling me they might release OS5 in that same spectacular shape as well as some different bodies?
Ohhhh I love September!
Everything starts moving in September!

Funds allocated for the NR70v have just been
re-allocated.

RE: Wait a minute!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 9:16:16 AM #
Take it easy, troll!

Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!

abosco @ 9/11/2002 7:41:57 PM #
This is amazing!!! I was just talking to Alex (Texskater) about when the NR90 will be seen and he said it'll probably be seen sometime later on this week. BOY WAS HE RIGHT ABOUT THIS!!! I was anticipating something around October, but something like a demo of this unit is just what the industry needed!

This is the news we have all been waiting for! An actual unit is coming out with Palm OS 5! Ed, I wish you the best of luck gathering as much information as possible about this. This is a HUGE development, as everybody knows.

I'm so excited, I'm shaking! The NR90 IS HERE!!!

I'm going to buy this the day it comes out! What do you guys think the pricetag will be for this (suspecting this is the NR90)? I'm guessing $800, which is what I am willing to pay!

God bless America, this brightened my day... long live free enterprise!!!

---
I apologize for wasting 30 seconds of your life.

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
kempokaraterulz @ 9/11/2002 8:02:16 PM #
Im guessing 600-700, probably simalar to the nr70 and nr70v when they came out

_______________________________________

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 8:14:47 PM #
I thought "NR 90" is referring to a T665 form factor + Virtual Graffiti?

This is a "NR 70v" with OS 5. Not sure what the name is.

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
Token User @ 9/11/2002 8:17:25 PM #
Sony is putting on in Tokyo this week a show called Dream World, designed to show off its latest technology. Included in this is a demonstration of a handheld running Palm OS 5.

I want one too, but this is a demonstration unit. It is as real as the Oslo was/is.

Until it hits retail channels we still don't have a released OS5 device - and still don't have a clear picture from Sony or Palm what they will look like.

Still, gotta love the rumours. who will be first to market Sony or Palm (or Toshiba ;).

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
TexSkater9140 @ 9/11/2002 8:20:54 PM #
it was pretty cool, eh alex?
i hadnt even seen the site, cuz i had said it like 5 mins before this post.
i mentioned my so called "insider info" and went to check the forums when i saw that pic. it was SO cool. not that i am gonna get one, im content with what i got now, but it is cool.
have fun
-alex

---------------------------------------
Check out my site:
http://home.attbi.com/~ajramos/
Best viewed with Internet Explorer
RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
abosco @ 9/11/2002 8:27:52 PM #
"I thought "NR 90" is referring to a T665 form factor + Virtual Graffiti? This is a "NR 70v" with OS 5. Not sure what the name is."

There were two rumors about this.

One was that there would be a T665c running Palm OS 5 and with virtual graffiti, and another was a clamshell pda (like the NR70v) with a video camcorder, but not running Palm OS!

Weird... but if this thing ends up being an NR70v with OS 5.0 and a video camcorder, I'm all over it!

---
I apologize for wasting 30 seconds of your life.

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
mentalsrule @ 9/11/2002 10:14:16 PM #
Well im glad sony might have the upper hand on this, and with at least pictures, it seems that there finally IS hope of a really kick butt OS5 device!..

i know im gonna get it as soon as it comes out!

____________________
Boycott the RIAA
http://www.boycott-riaa.com/

Not a Product Announcement
Ed @ 9/11/2002 10:18:39 PM #
I hate to throw cold water on all this enthusiasm but, like I said in the article, this ISN'T a product announcement. I just talked with a Sony spokesperson who asked me to emphasize that his company is demonstrating the power of OS 5 and the ARM processor, NOT the hardware it runs on.

Unfortunately, you have to be there to see how great the video looks on the ARM-based processor; naturally, that doesn't come across in a static image.

So don't go off thinking that Sony has announced that its next handheld will be a NR70V with OS 5. It hasn't said anything of the sort.

But you don't have to go away empty handed. Sony has OS 5 running well on whatever ARM-based processor it chose. That includes hi-res+ support, and full-screen video. I know, it isn't an announcement that the model will be out next week, but it is at least good news.

---
News Editor

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 10:21:10 PM #
Well, if this ISNT the NR70 series replacement, id really like to get a NR70. (anyone wanna trade for a prism)

Bring on the $800 Palms
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 11:49:27 PM #
"I'm going to buy this the day it comes out! What do you guys think the pricetag will be for this (suspecting this is the NR90)? I'm guessing $800, which is what I am willing to pay!"

$800?!?! I don't know what I'm more stunned about, that you think an OS 5 Clie would be $800 or that someone would be willing to pay that much for one. I think you need a cold shower.

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
abosco @ 9/11/2002 11:56:06 PM #
"$800?!?! I don't know what I'm more stunned about, that you think an OS 5 Clie would be $800 or that someone would be willing to pay that much for one. I think you need a cold shower."

Ok, considering the NR70v was priced retail at $600, I think it is safe to say that a device like the NR90 would cost $800. Remember, for $200 extra dollars, you are getting a processor that is three times as fast as the NR70v's and a digital video camcorder. Now, considering that an MP3 player puts an average of $100 extra onto a device, wouldn't a processor three times faster and a digital camcorder cost $200 extra? And don't forget about the possibility of being more RAM in the device. My guess is that it will have 32 mb, which should be more than satisfying for ANYBODY'S needs out of the Palm OS, but it could be something totally unexpected, like 64 mb.

And Ed, yes, I understand that you are saying the NR90 hasn't officially taken off. I understand that it's just a demo unit, but a demo unit of an NR70v with OS 5 is DEFINITELY a good thing. It means that Sony is thinking towards putting OS 5 in an NR clamshell, which is a VERY good thing. But I'm just planning for the future with the NR90. If it does make its appearance, I will be happy to shell out $800 for this, and if it might be lower in price like some people say, then all the more power to Sony.

From the perspective I'm looking at this, Sony is making progress, progress we thought was dormant in Sony's interest in building an OS 5 machine. I'm just happy they are telling us about their current vision and thoughts and I'm just generally happy that we are so close to a release of an OS 5 device. Can't wait to see the first wave hit store shelves soon!

---
I apologize for wasting 30 seconds of your life.

The NR90 is not here
Ed @ 9/12/2002 9:29:31 AM #
I think $800 is unrealistic. While the OS 5 models are much faster, the hardware isn't significantly more expensive. Maybe I'm letting my optomistic side take control, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Sony release their first OS 5 model at $600 at the most, and that's only if it has the hi-res+ screen and the built-in camera. Keep in mind, this OS 5 model won't be a big improvement over the NR series, which already offers many of the new multimedia features in OS 5, like MP3 playback.

On the other hand, I expect Palm's first model to be more expensive than an m515 because it will be a big jump in features. It will add a hi-res screen, MP3 playback, and possibly even voice recording. Palm will be able to justify charging a premium for these new features, where Sony can not.

> Remember, for $200 extra dollars, you are getting a processor that is
> three times as fast as the NR70v's and a digital video camcorder.

abosco, you need to be realistic about this digital camcorder. For one thing, it is still a rumor. And for another, (if it is real) it will almost certainly have the same image quality as the camera on the NR70V. In short, it will be a fun toy but not something you are going to record your daughter's birthday party with and save for posterity.

---
News Editor

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 11:51:31 AM #
"Remember, for $200 extra dollars, you are getting a processor that is three times as fast as the NR70v's and a digital video camcorder."

By that statement a new 2.1Ghz PC's should cost around $1,000,000 because my original Comodore 64 was $595. I can see a Sony hi-end unit selling for $600, with the current "king of the hill" dropping in price. That's the way things work. If Sony thinks they can get $800 for one I'd have to tell them good luck. I'll wait another year or two.

--Dave

maybe,...... just maybe..
bobes @ 9/12/2002 12:11:11 PM #
they'll put a better camera in the new unit. I'd say 1 megapixel should be sufficient.

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
Bartman007 @ 9/12/2002 4:35:16 PM #
"Remember, for $200 extra dollars, you are getting a processor that is three times as fast as the NR70v's... wouldn't a processor three times faster and a digital camcorder cost $200 extra?"

Of course you are assumming that Sony will use a 180-200 mhz processor.

And I have a feeling that Sony is just using the NR series clamshell for now as a demo chassis. I personally this that some of the hardware is hidden inside the frame display case, from the picture I can't tell how thick that display is.

I also have a feeling that Sony will tweek the NR series case if they are going to release an OS 5 model based on it.


Peace,
-Bartman007


P.S. Please excuse this post if it makes no sence. I have gotten a total of 13 hours sleep in the last week =(

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 6:04:17 PM #
This is a demo. But it is a more real demo
than Sony's demo ( it probably can't be called a demo)
at PalmSource last Feb.


RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 6:14:26 PM #
"they'll put a better camera in the new unit. I'd say 1 megapixel should be sufficient"

to support a higher resolution camera would require better optics. don't see it happening

RE: Dream come true... the NR90 is here!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 8:15:22 AM #
Better optis are now readily available. take a look at the plethora of micro digital cameras making thier way to the market. In particular the Casio Exilim S1 and M1 and the soon to be released S2/M2 these models support 1.3 and 2.1 mega pixels. in a tremendously small form factor. they are both only slightly larger than a stack of 5 credit cards (or was it 7? eh either way thats tiny) he point is the technology to implement a 1 megapixle camera into the body of a palm device is out there they ust need to use it and find it at the right prce point to make it worth thier while. Im not saying it is gunna happen but it could and it definatly would be great. right now all these built in digital cameras are just doodads without much use (yes tiny 640x480 snaps are nice to put a face with a name in your phone book but they print the size of postage stamps), hopefully they will soon reach the 2megapixle level where normal 4x5 prints are reasonable. btu i dont see that happening for another 1.5-2 years. but hey thats the thign about technology if u can wait there is always something better around the corner :o)

There is a chance...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 7:45:34 PM #
...that that is a fake display meant for Sony to demo the ARM CPU while not giving away its new form factor. My guess is that Sony's OS5 will not be EXACTLY the same size/shape as the NR70. Sony's usually strict about new stuff not showing up in public (well, the NR70 at the conference is one exception.)

Anyway, If that is Sony's OS5 form-factor, believe me- I'll be glad.... But I doubt the first generation of a new CPU will be as small, thin, etc. as seemingly nearly a decade of small-ization has done for Dragonball palms.

RE: There is a chance...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 8:08:53 PM #
Why would you say that? The ARM doesn't take much (if any) more space than the dragonball. I'd expect similar thin and small device forms from Sony.

BTW, I'll take one!!!

RE: There is a chance...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 2:12:42 PM #
Cooling, ARM processors run much hotter than dragnoballs (although WAY cooler than say, a pentium), but they tend to need a little more thickness for a beefier heatsink or some other cooling device.
RE: There is a chance...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 8:16:17 AM #
where is your cpu-problem?

look at the ARM based Toshiba Pocket PC e310.
nearly the same form factor like the Palm m5xx-Series!

so:
it works... ;-)


Thomas W. Geuting

RE: There is a chance...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/15/2002 12:12:19 AM #
Not Bigger. Look at the datasheets. Most of the ARM processors in the Palm Ready program are in packaged the same size or *smaller* packages (12x12mm BGA's) than the DragonballVZ (20x20mm TQFP & 13x13mm MBGA), and consume around the same power (V*A, which turns into heat) or many cases even less (when running native ARM OS code out of cache). The bigger problem is that the printed circuit board for such tiny surface mount chips is a non-trivial multi-layer design, fabrication, and assembly process.

Anyone remember the PalmSource meeting where a Sony representative said that the NR70V lookalike shown during a powerpoint presentation was only a non-functional mockup? Hmmm....

Where is now?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 8:10:54 PM #
Palm only showed us a video but sony made a real device. where is "tungsten"
RE: Where is now?
Token User @ 9/11/2002 8:20:44 PM #
Lost somewhere in Oslo.

RE: Where is now?
cyruski @ 9/12/2002 12:44:55 PM #
lol

RE: Where is now? marketing tactic
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 1:41:59 PM #
While sony is trying to please people by creative devices better and better, palm is Thinking and thinking and thinking of how to make the most money out of its handhelds, theyre studying consumer forecast and all that business ****.

Last gasp of pda's

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:17:26 PM #
I love Palm and this will be the best palm ever.

But palm sized computers with Full XP like the OQO (10 Gig drive, 256 Meg ram, integrated 80211b, 1 GHZ procesor) will kill this segment soon.

Winows CE will be the first to go. Good Riddance. Palm will only exist as a phone os (Kyocera 7135). And that only be until the XP computer has seemless cellular/wifi integration at 1/4 the size of the oqo.

I loved every palm I've had since the USRobitics Palm Pilot 5000. But will soon go the way of the adding machine. Really, who among you has an adding machine?

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:44:44 PM #
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Augmented reality here I come ... 2008.
OQO
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:54:44 PM #
http://www.oqo.com/

you may be right.....this thing is amazing and will only get thinner/lighter/better battery life as time goes on and technology gets better.

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:55:54 PM #
Oh, please! Didn't the growth of Palm since the Pilot teach you anything?

People don't want a desktop-in-their-pocket (and GOOD LUCK getting that OQO in your pocket, BTW). They want something easier to use--this is why WinCE's earlier models were a failure.

Plus, the OQO you reference is ENORMOUS! Hawkins had it right--portability is the key. That OQO thing will be a massive failure.

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:57:09 PM #
The OQO will have a limited success in some enterprise markets but will never be a big part of the handheld market. It will appeal to the same groups who buy Pocket PCs: enterprise buyers and other people who value cramming the largest feature set into a device, without caring whether the device is practical.

It is too big, too heavy, Windows XP isn't very easy to use a VGA, and other shortcomings will keep this from being very successful.

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 10:00:23 PM #
The applications and OS GUI's of desktop PC's look awful on 2 inch square (160x160 or 320x320) displays. Anything bigger I wouldn't want in my pocket all day. A PC OS would also suck twice the power. Until someone fixes those problems (Apple?), useful desktop PC's will get no smaller than a book. PalmOS will still rule on things half that size and smaller.
RE: Last gasp of pda's
Haber @ 9/11/2002 10:13:36 PM #
The OQO is intriguing and quite desirable from a new tech toy point of view (which I cannot absolve myself of), but its utility seems to be quite limited at this point. It reminds me of GridPad, from Jeff's pre-Palm days. It could find a niche market in meter readers, shipping and the like, but not outside of the commercial world. Why would a consumer need a tablet? The XP UI does not lend itself well to non-keyboard/mouse setups, and even with my 19-inch CRT I sometimes find my taskbar a bit cluttered. Are you going to play Doom III on it? Modify spreadsheets? Check your calendar? Write a quick e-mail? Soon enough the Palm platform will have enough power and diversity to run Quake, Quake II, a la Pocket PC. DTG, QuickOffice, etc fill in for Office XP. Calendar intergrated PIM, e-mail via third-party. And probably for a bit less than the OQO. OQO does have a larger screen, more storage space, etc, but will consumers be willing to pay hundreds more when a Palm can do it with more convenience? Unless the OQO costs $700 or less to bring it into line with Pocket PC devices, which would then be cannibalized, I think UPS and the electric company will be its only customers.

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 11:19:01 PM #
Again, I've loved all my palms (5000, pro, iiix,vx,6035)

But: The OQO will cost $1000 in cheap config (this fall!) Prices will go down as volume goes up.

You don't have to synch the OQO, it IS your desktop. You just plug a monitor and keyboard into it (dock) when you are home. That's when you play Quake III.

On this, you surf the web (with real i.e. 6). You read and write emails (or speak them with existing voice recoginition ! ). You use Instant Messaging wiht real aim or yahoo messenger. (make I.P. phone calls in starbucks). You listen to MP3's (cf prettier IPOD at only half the price). Write real PowerPoint slides, read real Word documents, keep your budget in Excel.

I wish Notepad had folders. XP does :)
I wish my Dell laptop fit into my cargo shorts too, OQO does. Finally a real use for a stowaway keyboard!

Open your mid folks. Nothing lasts forever, not the moon and stars. PDA's are dust in the wind.

Soon these devices will have positioning (gps) and built in cameras.

Use VB 6 to write applications optimized for hand-held mode (forget bizarre palm building programs).

I'd be happy to place some wagers on this...

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 11:57:26 PM #
> Winows CE will be the first to go.

Good grief! Windows XP is even worse than CE for a PDA OS.

The goal here is being able to do as much software-wise with the minimum power possible. Seeing how much hardware you can pack into a tiny box to run bloatware is not the answer.

About the size of a pack of cigarettes
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 11:58:59 PM #
RE: Last gasp of pda's -- OQO sucks!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 2:19:24 AM #
OQO is something straight out of a Gibson novel or Star Trek tv show and that is where it is going to stay. It is one of those products where ultra chic industrial designers got too much of an upper hand and the execs were at WAY too many South of Market art parties up in the City during this planning stages.

The design is totally void of any personal feel as it is reminding me of a mathematical model -- it alienates any high volume customer base. At least they could have done some good silkscreeing on the box.

If they want to salvage their effort, trash the WinTel design and place PalmOS 5 in this device on top of an ARM processor. That would give it some market velocity. The bottom line is no one wants Windows on a screen smaller than 5" x 5".

Last of all, someone paid WAY too much for a name as unpronounceable and forgettable as OQO. This whole company image is ultra chic at its worst. The web site might as well be playing Duran Duran songs.

In 2008, OQO is going to be in the list of failed portable PCs making the same fatality list as GRiDpad and Momenta.

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 5:21:24 AM #
You argument is quite flawed:

If palm sized computers (you quoted the OQO) can become palm sized, many GBs harddisk, hundred MBs of RAM and what not, then what is stopping Palm and PocketPCs etc from using the same hardware?

Hardware is still hardware. If it can be fitted into the Palm, they will do it. Don't assume that PalmOS will not evolve to use whatever cool hardware that will become available.

So it comes down to software, isn't it?

If Windows OS (for example XP) can shrink to fit a Palm sized PC, then don't you think M$ themselves would have dropped PocketPC, WindowsCE etc from the market? Better for them, actually.

And if indeed Windows OS can support palm-sized PCs to the desktop to the server, how bloated do you think it will be? Can M$ even design an OS that is easy to navigate via the stylus and via the keyboard and via the mouse? They could not, that's why WinCE and PocketPC came about.

Anyway, if Palm were to die off, it will be more due to PocketPC than WindowsXP.

Do I really want to...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 7:53:30 AM #
...wait 5 minutes for my PDA to boot up to see my calendar or look up my address? Not really.

I think OQO will be a great machine, but not for the same reasons that makes Palm or even Pocket PC great. Until we have a complete package that I can use at a moment's notice, I think I will stick with my PDA. Computers like the OQO, while certainly a step forward, will not be there for some time to come.

RE: Last gasp of pda's
Martinsh @ 9/12/2002 8:05:17 AM #
I think, that Desktop producers can get scared, bedause, if Palm OS will operate on such fast devices, as 1GHz CPU, then Palm will be a competitor for WinXP, or other Microsoft future product.
Let's buy new desktop computer - which one you want: Windows or Palm powered...? I think it's possible!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Martins
http://palmzz.times.lv
RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 8:13:58 AM #
http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/projects.php

Check this out and then tell me you don't want augmented reality.

retinal scanning displays should turn pretty much invisible by 2008.

power density from fuel cell tech will enable tiny supercomputers.

Oh, and read this: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.10/dartmouth.html

to see what life will be like in a few years...

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 11:14:05 AM #
"I think, that Desktop producers can get scared, bedause, if Palm OS will operate on such fast devices, as 1GHz CPU, then Palm will be a competitor for WinXP, or other Microsoft future product.
Let's buy new desktop computer - which one you want: Windows or Palm powered...? I think it's possible!"

I was just going to post something to this affect when i saw this post. EXACTLY!:) OS 5 can support - in theory, resolutions that are multiples of 160 x 160. So basically, if the big names in Palm software - like Documents To Go, etc - could be convinced to support a new 'Palm Desktop' resolution (say 1280 * 960) we'd be in business. Basically, just hack Palm Simulator to support the new res. I know this sounds absurd - but to the right demographic (those still baffled by the complexities of Windows and desktops in general) this could be just the thing. Hmmmm - i think i'm going to mock-up some images of this idea and i'll post them here later:)

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 12:01:22 PM #
I would like to add the in fact, I believe that MS is create several variants of it's XP family, most being task oriented. There is one version being designed for tablet PCs.. and I think another is designed to run on handheld devices. Perhaps one of these variants will be well suited to compete with PalmOS

Personally, I'll stick with PalmOS (or perhaps linux...), as I believe that a mobile device need not do everything a desktop machine can. My PDA is used to contacts, maps, and other information I need on the go, not to write a book in Word or work on my budget... i'd get a laptop for that. Want an MP3 player? get an MP3 player, not a PDA. Bt then again, I don't like the PalmPhones they have...

just my humble opinion.

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 2:38:55 PM #
Those who claim it's too complex for a PDA are just near sighted. Look at the development of PalmOS. More features and more power are being added gradually, while maintaining the portability and usability of a PDA. Sooner or later PalmOS will reach a point where its power and features equal to a desktop PC that we use today (but it will still lag behind the PCs at that time). The OQO however is fundamentally flawed. It tries to shrink a system that's designed for a large machine into a tiny handheld, and I don't see this approach working. A handheld is inherently different from a desktop, so it must use something that's specifically designed for it, like PalmOS. If OQO can be made to run PalmOS or some other OS specifically designed for handhelds, I believe it will become a serious competitor. Otherwise it will just remain as a geek gadget.
RE: Last gasp of pda's
useybird @ 9/12/2002 4:43:33 PM #
If everyone will be using this OQO, or whatever, the world would be forced to move at a slower pace becuase of boot times. And for Augmented reality, to show you where this is going, just watch the Jetsons. The 1960's view of the 21st century. But wait, where are the robot maids or capsulized food, or even video phones? Virtual reality was predicted to be so popular back in the early 90's. I haven't even heard about it for a while now. The OQO will be a predicted fad in the same way as the Segway scooter (The dumbest vehicle ever designed, even the Model T is better) or rocket packs. No value minded people would ever buy this OQO. Long live Palm!

----------------------------------------
Crack-smash! Splatter: The sound of the MLB using Pocket PC's instead of Baseballs.
RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 2:23:49 AM #
>A handheld is inherently different from a desktop, so it must use something that's specifically designed for it, like PalmOS.

Yes - and thats exactly why PocketPC blows. Your instandlty thown into an windows OS that feels cramped and silly in a handheld. Silly start menu scroll-button for yr stylus anyone?

RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 3:21:37 AM #
Why should it be any more expensive? I don't think ARM processors are substantially more expensive than Dragonballs, and the rest of the PDA is the same.
WHY W HY W HY
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 3:04:50 PM #
Why would the average person (the sales demographic that ultimately will determine any platform's widespread success) want to do ANYTHING on a small device?
I want to do as much of my work, play, internet, *WHATEVER* as possible on as BIG A DISPLAY as I can. Period.

It'd be cool if I could bluetooth all my work files into my cellphone at the end of the day, take them with me, and bluetooth 'em back into my home PC, which hopefully by 2008 will have a 28" flat-screen.

I hope if, on the rare occasion I have to work on a plane, that I bluetooth my files to some wireless tablet, or portable display with attachable keybord, so that I don't have to lug around a laptop.

Either way, I can't even BEGIN TO DREAM of why I would want to pack things into a tiny, unuseable package like that. That's just silly.

Bet you nerds haven't thought of that yet, huh?

Palm is Dead! Long live palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 6:36:57 PM #
http://www.antelopetech.com/apps.html


When the OQO or this thing can boot in 1 second, and run a palm emulator as easily as my laptop. Fugetabout it. Palm is toast. Really TOAST.


RE: Last gasp of pda's
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/14/2002 10:40:37 AM #
> Either way, I can't even BEGIN TO DREAM of why I would want to pack things
> into a tiny, unuseable package like that.

Your solution sounds like it might be practical... in 2008 once the technology you describe is available. People have to get work done in the mean time.

I hope you aren't one of those people who thinks tablet PCs are going to be a big hit. It's a nice idea but it doesn't work. In every study of tablets done in the past, people carried them around for about a week, then they carried them around a couple days a week, then they put them on a desk and never moved them again.

Handhelds are a good compromise until someone makes a breakthrough in screen technology that will allow a device no larger than a current handheld display a much larger screen. I don't know if it will be projected in to the air, or directly into the eye, or rolled up, or whatever. People won't carry anything larger than a handheld with them everywhere.

Don't tell me people carry laptops everywhere. While you might take it with you on a business trip, when you go to kitchen to get a snack you don't carry your laptop. If you don't have something with you ALWAYS, it isn't as good as a handheld.

If this isn't something you want, fine. But don't assume that what you want is what everyone wants.

What did you expect?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:24:59 PM #
Hi,

Well, I am still not sure what everybody expected. The fact is that SONY invested a lot of time and material engineering, fabrication, etc to get the current models out in the form factor they are in. This must be especiallly difficult with mass production of magnesium and metals of the same type.

That is why the 665 is in the same form factor as a 615 - the mold was made, why not use it.

I am sure that the next os5 device will be based ont he same form factors as the current generation: we will probably see an OS5 device in a 665 form factor as well as one in a NR form factor and eventually one in an SJ form factor, just as I am sure that eventually, palm will sell a 505/515 replacement running an arm and 5 in the same general shape as what they have now.

Myself, I am just hopint that these things come onthe shelves sooner rather than later: remember, when the first NR was demoed, it went from fantasy to product in about a month. heres hoping for the same.

Stop It!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 1:42:19 PM #
You're using common sense and logic!

Knock it off!!

You don't fit in here!!

RE: What did you expect?
Bartman007 @ 9/12/2002 4:59:06 PM #
lol.

Well put. When dealing with Sony you must throw all common logic out of the window.

Can it be a PPC?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:48:10 PM #
I think SONY can either PalmOS or PPC machines becoz of the CPU now!
No
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:50:37 PM #
There are two reasons why it won't be a Pocket PC:

1) Sony hates Microsoft. They have to put Windows on thir PCs and laptops because Microsoft has a monopoly but the two companies hate each other. During the DOJ monopoly trial against Microsoft, the only PC maker willing to testify against Microsoft was Sony.

2) Better reason. Palm has the dominant handheld OS. Sony likes to win and make money. The way to be the biggest handheld maker in the world is NOT to go with the second best operating system.

RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 9:52:25 PM #
Dual Boot...

But i heard, that a manufacturer has to make the device specifically designed for PPC. I think that just loading the OS on won't work. It has to be "Changed"

RE: Can it be a PPC?
Haber @ 9/11/2002 10:24:43 PM #
I was under the impression that the ARM used in Palm OS 5 devices was different than StrongARMs currently used in most Pocket PC devices. Therefore, PPC, which is tied in so intimately with device that you won't see a speed increase between the SA1110 (ARM v.4) at 206MHz and the PXA250 (V.5TE) at 400MHz, won't know what it's looking at when using an ARM and not an ARM-based XScale. Maybe when Pocket PC 2003/4 is released.

NOT to go with the second best OS?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 10:45:59 PM #
Why Sony can't have both OS? It's possible for a company to have PDAs of both OS, it will widden the market. Acer is now releasing s60(Palm) and n20(PPC) at the same time.
RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 9:25:26 AM #
Dual boot handhelds will appeal to the same people who have dual boot PCs: a very, very small percentage of users, all hard core geeks. Not a consumer product.
RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 10:56:23 AM #
>I was under the impression that the ARM used in Palm OS 5 devices was different than StrongARMs currently used in most Pocket PC devices.

No, Pocket PC is tied to ARM in general. It doesn't have X-Scale optimizations in it which is why it doesn't run super fast on it. The X-Scale does some StrongARM emulation. Pocket PC already runs on the TI-OMAP processor - that is what is in the HP 928 WDA sold in Europe. The Smartphone 2002 OS is also ARM based but none of the MS based smartphones have the StrongARM.

RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 11:54:00 AM #
>No, Pocket PC is tied to ARM in general.

No - PPC IS TIED TO StrongARM. It runs on XScale through emulation of StrongARM instructions. I should clarify - emulation of SOME instructions because both StrongARM and XScale are similar in that they are both ARM type cpus. Anyway - it is optimized for StrongARM only - which is why there are no big performance gains on XScale. Palm did a much smarter thing with OS 5 (and is the basis for all future Palm OS version tied to ARM) - they came up with the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) - a layer that CPU manufacturers write to provide the tie-in to their specific CPU. MS didnt do this - they 'hardcoded' support for one CPU (StrongARM) into the OS. That is why - probably by early/mid next year - Palm OS devices running OS 6 will take the lead over PPC in terms of performance. MS has already said that they will not release an XScale optimized version of PPC2002 OR CE.Net. In fact, it will likely be a couple of years before they have an OS optimized for anything other then StrongARM. Software developers can - of course - get around that by writting XScale optimizations into their code - but thats not a long term solution and means more work that - in all likelyhood - will only be done by some game and multi-media app developers.

RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 3:51:38 PM #
> 2) Better reason. Palm has the dominant handheld OS.
> Sony likes to win and make money. The way to be the
> biggest handheld maker in the world is NOT to go
> with the second best operating system.

The SECOND BEST? HA! The second WORST maybe ;))))

RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 5:35:19 PM #
>No - PPC IS TIED TO StrongARM.

You can keep repeating that if you like, it doesn't make it true. StrongARM is an ARM V4 architecture and that is what the Pocket PC is optimized for. See
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C4C5516C1 (PDF) from ARM Holdings. X-Scale uses ARM V5 architecture. Optimizing for X-Scale/V5 will hurt V4 compatibility. MS has been supporting ARM V4 in their CE based devices since at least 1998 when the original HPC with the 90MHz ARM chip shipped. Palm may be V5 optimized - I don't know. Would make sense since they waited 4-5 years after MS to jump on something other than the anemic Dragonball.


>Palm did a much smarter thing with OS 5 (and is the basis for all future Palm OS version tied to ARM) - they came up with the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) - a layer that CPU manufacturers write to provide the tie-in to their specific CPU.

LOL! MS has forgotten more about a HAL than PalmSource has ever known. They have used a HAL since the Windows NT 3.1 days which began work in the late 80's and CE has had a HAL since 1996, the day it shipped Version 1.0. It is sometimes referred to as the OAL, or OEM Abstraction Layer, since a HAL is very broad and generally used in PCs to support a wide array of devices. In a PDA, you can be more specific since you know what the MoBo is, the chip, etc. PC HALs in XP for example, have to contend with Intel and AMD processors of various flavors. HP, on the otherhand, can develop a much smaller narrower OAL for the iPAQ.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J3B5126C1 for more information.

>That is why - probably by early/mid next year - Palm OS devices running OS 6 will take the lead over PPC in terms of performance.

Good one. You are on the Palm bandwagon full steam. Forget OS5. Lets talk about OS6! We don't even have OS5 devices yet.


>MS has already said that they will not release an XScale optimized version of PPC2002 OR CE.Net.

>Duh. They are already working on the next releases.


>In fact, it will likely be a couple of years before they have an OS optimized for anything other then StrongARM.

Don't count on it taking that long. They already run on the TI OMAP processor in the HP Pocket PC PHone - the Jornada 928.

RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 3:23:08 AM #
It will, however, almost certainly run Linux. In fact, if both Sharp and Sony offer Linux PDAs, that might give it some serious momentum. And if Sony doesn't offer it, others will make it run.

Before you whine about Linux, the PDAs run special PDA software on top. The whole package is certainly better than PocketPC. You can even run a Palm emulator :-)

RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 11:48:24 AM #
>You can keep repeating that if you like, it doesn't make it true. StrongARM is an ARM V4 architecture and that is what the Pocket PC is optimized for. See
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C4C5516C1 (PDF) from ARM Holdings. X-Scale uses ARM V5 architecture.

You seem to be re-inforcing my point here. OK - PPC has 'hardcoded' optimization for v4 ARM - which included StrongARM. But - as you point out - this does not included XScale or other version of ARM. Im not sure of yr point here, but i am sure of my original one: Palm was smart and didn't tie the OS to 'v4' or 'v5' - if the cpu manufacturer makes there cpu OS compliant (ie: write a HAL layer for it) then OS 5 is optimized for it.

>They have used a HAL since the Windows NT 3.1 days which began work in the late 80's and CE has had a HAL since 1996, the day it shipped Version 1.0. It is sometimes referred to as the OAL, or OEM Abstraction Layer, since a HAL is very broad and generally used in PCs to support a wide array of devices.

I don't believe i said they didn't - just that they didn't do such a thing for PocketPC - and my point still stands. Don't change the subject - PPC has no equivalent to HAL - IT IS 'HARDCODED'!

>Don't count on it taking that long. They already run on the TI OMAP processor in the HP Pocket PC PHone - the Jornada 928.

Yes - just like they do with XScale. Optimization?

Why are you arguing this? PPC is TIED to a very specific architecture (v4 - which includes StrongARm and... what else?). Palm OS will be able to run optimized on cureent AND future ARM designs. And so will PPC - in 2-3 yrs.

RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 12:42:57 PM #
Is OS 5.0 using anything else beyond ARM v4.1? (ie. Xscale media extension, Omap DSP, etc?)
RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 4:34:54 PM #
Is OS 5.0 using anything else beyond ARM v4.1? (ie. Xscale media extension, Omap DSP, etc?)

Start here for Xscale and Omap in PalmOS Ready program
www.palmsource.com/about/os_ready.html

And then check the archive here for the snips and bits that have snuck through referring to multimedia stuff shown or talked about in PalmOS 5 and various ARM setups.

RE: Can it be a PPC?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 5:29:03 PM #
>You seem to be re-inforcing my point here. OK - PPC has 'hardcoded' optimization for v4 ARM - which included StrongARM. But - as you point out - this does not included XScale or other version of ARM. Im not sure of yr point here, but i am sure of my original one: Palm was smart and didn't tie the OS to 'v4' or 'v5' - if the cpu manufacturer makes there cpu OS compliant (ie: write a HAL layer for it) then OS 5 is optimized for it.

That is crap. You have to optimize for V4 or V5 ARM. If you optimize for V5, it won't work on V4. The HAL doesn't interpret code for you, it is the conduit by which your OS talks to the hardware.

>I don't believe i said they didn't - just that they didn't do such a thing for PocketPC - and my point still stands. Don't change the subject - PPC has no equivalent to HAL - IT IS 'HARDCODED'!

It is NOT! The PPC has Windows CE 3.0 underneath, and that has a OEM Abstraction Layer. How do you think the first PPC talked to MIPS, SHx and ARM processors? How do you think the current one talks to StrongARM, TI OMAP and X-Scale? MS doesn't recompile for each. THe OEM writes their little HAL to tell the OS how it will talk to the hardware. The Pocket PC has had a HAL since day one, just like all CE based devices since 1996.


Camera res?

mentalsrule @ 9/11/2002 10:05:20 PM #
I want to know what the resolution of the camera will be now, since people constantly complain that the NR70v's camera is SOOO crappy, which it isnt.

If this is high resolution, i am for sure gonna like it, but either way, as long as its the NR70's body, no matter what its named, im getting one!

____________________
Boycott the RIAA
http://www.boycott-riaa.com/

RE: Camera res?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/11/2002 10:28:55 PM #
The resolution of the camera isn't affected by the operating system. I'd guess Sony will include the same camera in its OS5 PDA as in the NR70V. it is a good compromise between price, size, and resolution. People who complain are expecting too much from a camera this small and cheap.
RE: Camera res?
mentalsrule @ 9/11/2002 11:20:19 PM #
i never said it was an OS restriction, but i just want to know if they upgraded it, especially since its video capable now, so if not, im perfectly fine, and i would still get one, but it would be a nice addition.

____________________
God bless the USA!
RE: Camera res?
Kesh @ 9/12/2002 1:50:37 AM #
The only rumor I've read pegged it as having a 'better' camera than the NR-70V. Read into that what you will... I'd love to get at least a full megapixel crammed into that, but two would be sweet. I really don't see it happening for another year or two though.

God bless America?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 2:58:13 AM #
God bless Japan! That's where the innovations come from.
RE: Camera res?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 9:41:50 AM #
I think it would be nice if the camera at least was able to take pictures that filled up all the pixels on the beautiful 320x480 screen (without zooming/scaling)
RE: Camera res?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 11:22:19 AM #
Wish it will be at least double the resolution of the old one. I know megapixel is too much to ask but 640 X 480 is pretty much standard on most cheap digital cameras nowadays.320 X 240 is just not very usable.
RE: Camera res?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 11:47:15 AM #
Ooops. 4X the resolution that is. Double the horizontal and double the vertical resolution.

One Step Closer

OzziePalmDieHard @ 9/12/2002 3:54:41 AM #
Excellent news. I have just refunded my m130, so I have some cash for an OS5 device, instead of my previous plan of attack, being working my ass off in about 5 paper runs at once ;0

Hopefully the good people at Sony and palm have a cheaper OS5 device planned, with similair feature set to SJ30, but with ARM and mp3...
Oh well, a pipe dream, but i can still hope :)

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

RE: One Step Closer
nenad @ 9/12/2002 9:11:21 AM #
How long you had to wait for refund? I applied through the site, but still no answer from Palm, not to mention refund. :( Can you describe me the procedure?

Conspiracy Theory

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 8:47:00 AM #
Remember the Palm OS 5 demo boards shown at PalmSource Expo? With a screen, connected by ribbon cable to a giant board of hardware?

See that big white cover all around the side of that "OS 5 device"? Are you sure that device really fits into the NR70 case, or is the white cover there to hide the giant board that's really running the hardware?

RE: Conspiracy Theory
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 9:14:11 AM #
its not a box.... its a glass cover, and the device is real... looks 3d enough, and u can cee that the place behind the glass is clear... its just a case of protecting the device from being stolen i guess
RE: Conspiracy Theory
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 10:59:24 AM #
How can this be a conspiracy theory when Sony has /said/ this isn't a real handheld, its a way to show off OS 5. I'm sure it's a mock-up of some kind. There probably is a breadboard behind that screen with the ARM processor.

None of you are listening to ED. Sony isn't demonstrating its new handheld. It is showing off how good OS 5 plays video.

RE: Conspiracy Theory
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 11:03:10 AM #
I figure that the large board is there to cover the fact that the new PDA is two inches thick!
RE: Conspiracy Theory
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 11:32:48 AM #
Why do people think that it would be difficult to get a new device into the same factor as the current Sony devices. Are these Arm Processors really big or something. Do they require way more power to operate than the current processor.

If not, then I fail to see what the issue is. This may be a mockup or whatever, but it should be practical to get a new device into the current form factors. The only reason why the size may be increased, would be if they wanted to make room for a CF slot for expansion (as per another rumour) or squeeze in bluetooth (would be nice, leaving the MS slot free).

Zuber

RE: Conspiracy Theory
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 1:40:03 PM #
The question is not of possiblity or impossibility, but of time.

I agree - and think we all do - that Sony is capable getting an OS 5 machine in a reasonably-sized case.

The question is: is such a machine and case ready now? Or will it be several months yet? We've waited quite a while for the OS 5 handhelds as it is...

Product development cycles.
orb2069 @ 9/12/2002 2:37:27 PM #
> Why do people think that it would be difficult to get a new device into the same factor as the current Sony devices.

Because it's taken Sony several years to get Dragonball devices that small? Remember that most of the first-generation Sony PDAs were the almost the same size as the PalmOS ones (With similar-sized electronics, and a thinner shell, mainly.)

You can't 'one off' (IE: Build from scratch in an electronics shop) something as highly integrated/optomized/compressed as a current generation handheld (Be it NR70, HE330 or m515) and get it as physically small as a production model. The methods for small-run-construction are too bulky for that.

The only way they could build a ARM based PDA that small would be if they already had an entire production line tooled up and running. And if they did, don't you think they'd be saying something a little more encouraging? Or that they'd at least have released something in Japan?

RE: Conspiracy Theory
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 5:51:38 PM #
Let me just point out that Toshiba already has an ARM-based Pocket PC out in a form factor almost as small as an m500 series Palm, in the e310. Let's just wait and see what Sony and Palm come up with, shall we? :)

It's SO predictable

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 9:41:10 AM #
Palm is late to it's own party, as usual. Go Sony!
RE: It's SO predictable
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 2:51:14 PM #
Palm already has a whole new PDA, the Oslo or Tungsten T that runs OS5. Sony hasn't shown anything except an OS demo (THIS IS NOT A DEVICE DEMO!!!)
RE: It's SO predictable
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 3:47:25 PM #
No, they haven't really done this. The Oslo is probably not going to be released. So maybe Sony will be faster w/ releasing a OS 5 device. But, as for Palm, they haven't so far.
RE: It's SO predictable
iebnn @ 9/14/2002 4:35:46 PM #
You're not understanding this.

What Sony has shown:
A demo of what ARM can do, not a device demo (there is little doubt in my mind that they have all of the electronics outside of the NR70 behind the stand). Don't get it in your head that this is a device demo, all that is being used of the Clie on the left is the screen.

What Palm has shown:
A full new device with a new case and with everything already built into the case. A working PDA. A device.

Size does matter

Doo @ 9/12/2002 1:04:38 PM #
"Intelligence doesnít necessarily require bulk Mr. Scott."

So Iím sure the wonders of Sony will continue. OS5 in an NR70 form factor.

Gimme a break, PIC...That's just appearances

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 1:20:49 PM #
Based on how the devices are mounted, I'd guess that there are no real "guts" even inside that NR70/ARM thing on the left. Likely, there is a 10 inch square breadboard with the ARM processor on it and two or three ribbon cables into the cut up NR device to get the display to work.

Don't read anything into this feeble "demo" of capabilities, related to hardware expectations.


If the guys at Sony (and Palm) are reading this...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 1:22:30 PM #
OK...here is my wish list:

Assumptions:
-All running PalmOS5 and OS upgradable
-Single slot for flash memory expansion if wireless is built-in (MS for Sony, SD/MMC for Palm obviously), otherwise consider a second expansion slot (CF?)
-Continue using the same USB/cradle connector w/backward compatibility for cradles, keyboards, etc...

A fair amount of this wishlist is based on the slight, however transient envy I experienced while playing with my friend's new Toshiba e740 (which, for comparison, has a CF and MMC/SD slot, integrated WiFi, removable battery/battery cover, built-in media playback with headphone jack, decent (but kinda boring) form factor, albeit with complaints about the battery life...and can be purchased at Circuit City for $599.00 USD)

for NO MORE than $600.00 USD:
-NR clamshell form factor w/keyboard
-HiRes+ Virtual Graffiti
-Improved digital cam w/video capture
-64MB RAM (with an upgrade path to 128 that doesn't void warranty)
-Integrated wireless (2 models w/your choice of Bluetooth or 802.11b)
-MP3 with optional wireless remote and headphones using Bluetooth, enhanced speaker, enhanced IR, improved battery life with a battery cover for replacement if needed.

for NO MORE than $500.00 USD:
-NR clamshell form factor w/keyboard
-HiRes+ Virtual Graffiti
-no camera
-32MB RAM (with an upgrade path to 64 or even 128 that doesn't void warranty)
-Integrated wireless as above (BT or WiFI choice)
-MP3 with optional wireless remote and headphones using Bluetooth, enhanced speaker, enhanced IR, improved battery life with a battery cover for replacement if needed.

for NO MORE than $450.00 USD:
-Somewhere between T and N series form factor (I'd love a thinner version of the N760C, with the same basic layout and buttons...just a bit thinner, with a better attachment for the cover, or maybe something Palm V/m5XX'ish??)
-HiRes+ Virtual Graffitti
-16MB RAM (with an upgrade path to 32 or 64 or even 128 that doesn't void warranty)
-Integrated wireless as above (BT or WiFI choice)
-MP3 with optional wireless remote and headphones using Bluetooth, enhanced speaker, enhanced IR, improved battery life, with a battery cover for replacement if needed.

So, in short, for $450.00, you get an OS5 PDA, with a great screen, a fair amount of memory, some sort of integrated wireless, and multimedia features. For $50 more you get a different form factor that has a built-in keyboard, and more RAM. And for $150 more, you get all the bells and whistles, with even more RAM, and the digital camera.

And lastly...this is for the Sony folks only...

How about the 256MB and 512MB Memory Sticks? SD/MMC is going to erase your market share if you can't get these out soon, at a reasonable price.

Just my two cents...and about a billion dollars of wishful (hopeful?) thinking!!

Cheers

RE: If the guys at Sony (and Palm) are reading this...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 3:46:11 PM #
Hm, nice but unlikely - at least IMHO
RE: If the guys at Sony (and Palm) are reading this...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 8:34:32 PM #
You're expectations are way too high.
you forget that the Palm OS became famous for simplicity.
PPC will now dominate this market.
The Toshiba E310, is probably almost the exact same price of the Palm M515.
RE: If the guys at Sony (and Palm) are reading this...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/12/2002 9:27:52 PM #
Toshiba E310 will be replaced with E330 soon. It's rumored to be low end 300Mhz Xscale. It's probably will have a $3-350 street price.
RE: If the guys at Sony (and Palm) are reading this...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 10:10:28 AM #
Well, for $3 I would buy it ;)))))))
Famous for simplicity...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 4:18:35 PM #
Wouldn't it be simpler to have built-in wireless, instead of having to plug in a Bluetooth SD or MS card, or attach a bulky sled?

Wouldn't it be simpler to have wireless networking and multimedia built-in, so that you could save that one small expansion slot for external storage and memory, and the USB connector for syncing and charging?

Wouldn't it be simpler if you had virtual graffiti, so that apps that need the screen real estate could have it, and those that need character recognition could have that too?

Wouldn't it be simpler to have more on-board RAM, so that you don't have to struggle with trying to trick the VFS to act as an extension of the RAM?

Simplicity is enabled by good hardware, and facilitated by the OS. It's about time for REVOLUTIONARY changes in the Palm platform, not the incremental and evolutionary progress that has been the hallmark for the last few years (with the exception of Sony and maybe HandEra). The original poster is dead on...we need devices like this for the PalmOS to not only survive, but to thrive, as well as a few middle tier and low end devices as well.

Some users (especially us PIC geeks) want the simplicity of the PalmOS, the amazing software library of the PalmOS, and the Gee Wiz hardware that Sony and many of the PPC licensees have created. Some just want a simple, easy to carry, easy to read organizer, and some want something in between. PalmOS 5 can make all of this happen...finally...I hope...

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