Comments on: Rumor: More Info on Palm Zire and Palm Tungsten

Over the past several weeks information has begun to surface on two new handhelds coming soon from Palm Inc. A bit more has been found in the inventory computer system of a major electronics retailer.

The high-end model shows up in the system under the name Palm Tungsten along with a few new details. The inventory system shows that it has 16 MB of RAM and also says Cradle Included. The Tungsten has a suggested retail price of $499.99 but the system doesn't show a possible release date. It has a model number of P80850US.

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more memory!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 12:11:58 PM #
Why only 16MB? This is very disappointing.
RE: more memory!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 1:15:32 PM #
RE: more memory!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 1:22:55 PM #
Please, be a little more constructive here. I'm not the one who wrote the 1st comment but I agree. 16MB for a brand new high-end device is a little on the low end.
RE: more memory!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 3:28:06 PM #
As far as I understand memory eats battery life. Since there is Bluetooth, an ARM CPU and a high-res screen, the battery is already compromised...

You can add 256 MB SD cards if you want more memory !

16 MB would not hinder me from buying this Palm. But a mediocre screen like on the m130 would ...

Lets wait and see whether Palm can beat the SonyEricsson P800 !!

RE: more memory!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 6:16:23 PM #
16megs of RAM on a OS5 device?!?! You gotta be kidding me...

the new programs are probably going to take up more ram 16megs will definitely not do...

64 is already on the low end...

yeah right!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 7:05:22 PM #
64 mb is **NOT** already on the "low-end".

Get a clue, little nerd-boy.

RE: more memory!
hotpaw4 @ 9/17/2002 7:55:59 PM #
>the new programs are probably going to take up more ram 16megs will definitely not do...

Applications that currently run on an m505 use LESS than 256kB of R/W RAM. That's all that is available; the rest is write-protected database storage (simulated ROM). Even the Sony nr70 allows less than 1 MB of application heap. Using more power-consuming DRAM to emulate zero-static-power flash is just a waste. If anything, they should add another slot for more MMC cards or memory sticks.

RE: more memory!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 8:53:42 PM #
What if it also had 16mb of flash?? And a neat little program that when you, say, install DateBk5, it will copy it to flash if you want and hide your old datebook icon. :) I'm no expert, but wouldnt that be better, ie your programs in flash and limit the ram and you would save battery power, as the flash doesnt need the capacitors charged every so many milliseconds??
16mb would be OK. BUT what really concerns me is that if we all pay this much for a Palm, with the avent that OS6 is around the corner to upgrade to, I would assume we will want more than 16mb for OS6.
16M, again?!
newton @ 9/18/2002 5:24:36 AM #
16M, again?!

You gotta be kidding.

Whom to be blamed this time? Definitely not DragonBall processor!

RE: more memory!
twizza @ 9/19/2002 11:00:27 AM #
why do u need more than 16MB if u can buy a SD card? and in terms of OS5 apps they will be VFS aware.

RE: more memory!
newton @ 9/19/2002 10:24:18 PM #

SD card with VFS does not equal to increased RAM. You are recommended to treat it like floppy disk. As many programs do not support VFS and moving them to card will give you a nasty supprise!

For details of VFS, you may refer to latest issue of Palm Tipsheet 34 - September 2002.


I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 12:19:12 PM #
What does this actually mean?
Does it play MP3's. Does it support full motion video?
RE: Multimedia?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 1:05:19 PM #
I'd like to see not only MP3 playability, but also an input jack to transfer and record MP3 files from a source other than a PC. An an accessory that would allow AM/FM radio reception would be great. Then I could toss my Walkman.
RE: Multimedia?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 3:45:43 PM #
Usually those "add on tuners" are of abysmally low quality and have terrible reception. I tried, just for kicks, a Gameboy-based radio tuner. It was an atrocity and still cost 20-25 bucks. For that price, you can run down to Radio Shack and get one of those really tiny zippo-lighter sized pocket radios that run on a AAA battery.

I also tried the waaaaay overpriced FM headset for my Motorola cell phone. A nice novelty for sure, but once again, a cheap little Sony or Aiwa can do a far better job. There's no reason (other than pure greed) that you should have to buy a proprietary headset for the Motorola to access the built in tuner. Simply plugging any 1/8 headphone connector into the phone's headset port should activate the radio. Also, you don't have to worry about getting one of those cheap-o units wet/broken/lost etc.

Zire the same MSRP as m105???

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 12:50:54 PM #
I just don't get it. If this is right, the 105 is the same MSRP as the Zire, but rumors on the Zire make it sound WAY less capable. What's the point?

If the Zire was $50, I guess it might make sense. Well, maybe the rumors are wrong. Or the price. We'll see. It's hard to imagine why Palm would do this (oops, sorry, I opened the door to massive Palm bashing).

RE: Zire the same MSRP as m105???
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 1:16:30 PM #
it is stupid to put 2 buttons instead of four.
RE: Zire the same MSRP as m105???
newton @ 9/18/2002 10:29:16 PM #
A total misjudgement of the sophistication of market and an insult to the customers' intelligence.

RE: Zire the same MSRP as m105???
twizza @ 9/19/2002 10:57:58 AM #
    A total misjudgement of the sophistication of market and an insult to the customers' intelligence.
actually, it is a good juedgement in that people will flock to this device and then Palm will at some point lower the price of the device to where it should have been at release and we [power user types] will still complain that our lil bro/sis/uncle/aunt doesnt have a $100 pda that does what our $500 one does.

What Happened To All The Other Comments?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 2:14:29 PM #
There were over 70 to 80 comments associated with this story yesterday, where did they go and why?
RE: What Happened To All The Other Comments?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 2:20:32 PM #
Things must have gotten out of hand....What happened ED?
RE: What Happened To All The Other Comments?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 2:21:38 PM #
RE: What Happened To All The Other Comments?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 2:48:29 PM #
I'm going to miss all those wish lists and the fascinating pro/con comments about Sony.
RE: What Happened To All The Other Comments?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 4:11:42 PM #
Does anyone have this cached. I missed the comments and I would really like to see them
RE: What Happened To All The Other Comments?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 9:14:01 PM #
Actually, I'd like to see the Cambio story again.
RE: What Happened To All The Other Comments?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 11:48:09 PM #
The comment you missed but are looking for goes like this...
Those screaming about "video/audio/color/wireless/ice cream maker/etc." enabled in one pda are lost golf balls in the high weeds of dreamland. OK buy it, BUT after.. - Oops, sorry my battery just died while watching my 10 minute low-resolution mov.. Oops again, my battery died while trying to write this and listen to my MP3 enabled handheld for a few minutes. And the story goes on - DUH HUH, IT'S ALL ABOUT BATTERIES AND A LITTLE THING CALLED "I REALLY NEED MY PDA TO WORK ALL DAY ON A SINGLE CHARGE".
RE: What Happened To All The Other Comments?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/19/2002 10:19:45 AM #
I wonder if Palm has thought of doubling up the battery in the Tungsten. Then it would have double the battery life, I'd assume.

_found_ ?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 4:28:33 PM #
> has been found in the inventory computer system of a major electronics retailer.

found? Ed, have you got spies in all the retailers of the states or what? ;)

all your inventories are belong to us!

RE: _found_ ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 9:57:35 PM #
RE: _found_ ?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 3:10:27 PM #
Nothing found on Compusa. Can you post a link?


I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 6:46:37 PM #


I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 7:08:21 PM #
I feel the same way. I've been putting off a new PDA purchase in the hope I could get a Palm Smartphone with SD slot and OS 5. Anyone have the inside story?
Bartman007 @ 9/17/2002 7:39:35 PM #

Take off capslock, please.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 10:59:26 PM #
I have been waiting for a palm smartphonelike the Treo 270. It's a good stuff, only it does not support memory expansion and not GRPS reasy. Anyone knows when will handspring offer a smartphone with SD expansion slot?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 12:43:27 AM #
I dont know if you have seen the info on the new Kyocera PDA/Smartphone but it is Palm OS based, has a SD slot and sounds like a great product all around. I hasn't been released yet though. I'm not sure when it is expected but maybe there is something posted on this site

Color i705?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 8:40:19 PM #
When is Palm going to catch up with Handspring? I don't want my PDA integrated with my phone but I do want always on e-mail capabilities like the i705. I've used my IIIc since it was released and I can't envision going back to a mono screen.
RE: Color i705?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 11:36:44 PM #
Ditto, ditto, ditto. I agree, I don't need an all in one device. The screen size suffers to much. Why haven't we seen a color 705!

Q - doesn't anybody know the differance in functionability between a 705 or a bluetooth connection between pda and phone.

RE: Color i705?
twizza @ 9/18/2002 1:23:18 AM #
OK see...I go this rule: only speak when you have something to say that will contribute to the whole discussion. So here is where my point I'll lay that will just make some sense and thats least till another story comes out.

Palm [hardware side] releases devices in a smart, non-consumer pleasing type of way. They are committed to releasing devices that balance good battery life, solid applications, and [sometimes questionable but] good reliablity. For them to release a color i705 with battey technology still not great, good but not great, for a wireless color device, goes somewhat against their philosophy. Sure you have Sony that doesnt really care about battery life except in low-end devices and after the second or third version of a particular product. But they are a consumer driven type of company. They will go to please the consumer faster [more capital toward r&d makes that possible too] than Palm. When Palm releases a device they need to have a good slugging percentage else they will have been bankrupt a long time ago.

A color i705 is probably in the works. Probably not in a OS4 form, but more in the format of a Oslo type device with more wireless ready features for a more mature wireless network. Do we all want it now, sure. But wait, let patience have its perfect work that you will not have to upgrade every year.

In terms of the low cost Zire. It is probably designed to be sold @ $50 before the end of its run. The m100/m105 wasnt. Therefore it is more expensive to produce that device. Rather, Palm would use some of the hardware that is now cheaper because of the broader use of the universal connector and other OS4 specific stuff. The device should be differnt and should 'look' like a cheapy device. But I would like to see Palm develop some consumer accessories for it like the mp3 player and game conrtoller. It would fit within their philosophy.

Thats the end of my long post. I post infrequently and read here a lot. I was always told that a wise man speaks slowly and considers his words. I hope that you all do the same in the rest of your discussions.

Palm, you are too late and too slow.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 10:25:28 PM #
What's new in the features if the 2 new devices coming out? nothing great from what I see.

I suppose for those wanting to better stretch your money, wait for the Sony to come out with better features and if Sony can do such a great job for its many model with just using OS 4.x, imagine what can it do for OS 5?

What's New with Tungsten

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/17/2002 11:03:12 PM #
Whats new with Tungsten? a 320x320 resolution,16mB memory? they are already offerd by SOny. With OS 5, Palm should offer more feature beside a built in blue-tooth. Why not offer a smartphone, since the cellphone compnay are already invading the PDA's market with their phones and PDA in one.
RE: What's New with Tungsten
twizza @ 9/19/2002 10:56:16 AM #
Palm is already developing that soon too. Do a search here on PIC and you will find that there are rumors of a i705 replacement that fits the decription of smartphone type device.


I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 2:36:54 AM #
Little more info behind the Palm Tungsten with INTEGRATED BLUETOOTH:

The Qualified PalmSource Bluetooth stack for Palm OS 5.x from 2002-09-09 is the "same as the pre-qualified component" the Bluetooth Stack for Palm OS by Palm Inc qualified on 2001-09-24: Bluetooth stack add-on for Palm OS 4.0 and OS 5.0.

Palm Bluetooth Stack

Product Overview

Palm originally developed a Bluetooth stack designed to run on Palm OS® 4.x., which executes on a Motorola DragonBall processor. This stack has now been integrated into Palm OS® Software Release 5.0.

The Palm Bluetooth Stack is the same stack that was qualified by Cetecom as the “Bluetooth stack add-on for Palm OS® 4.0”, modified slightly to run on Palm OS® 5.0 and an ARM processor.

This software is itself based upon the qualified “XTNDAccess Blue SDK” from Extended Systems.

Modifications have been limited to changes in System API calls to comply with OS5 changes and macro definitions to deal with endian issues. Functionality is identical to the qualified “Bluetooth stack add-on for Palm OS 4.0”.

Key Features
Palm OS® Software Release 5.0 is the first ARM based Palm OS platform release and introduces several architectural changes (ARM processor, device abstraction layer (DAL), PACE, etc.). It is based on the Palm OS 4.1 feature set. Compatibility with 68k applications is a key requirement, and to this end release 5.0 will include a 68K emulation environment, the Palm Application Compatibility Environment (PACE).
There will be no native ARM applications; applications will be run through the emulator. Motown Café will be ported as a native ARM communication stack, providing the original Motown Café API to applications through PACE.

The basic system requirements for the Palm OS 5.x Bluetooth Stack are:
- Palm OS 5.x
- 256 KB heap
- Bluetooth Radio Unit

The Palm Bluetooth Stack supports the Bluetooth profiles that make sense for pure data-oriented operations.

Profile Explanation

Generic Access
The main purpose of the General Access Profile (GAP) is to describe the use of the lower layers of the Bluetooth protocol stack (LC and LMP) and to describe security-related alternatives, and higher layers (L2CAP, RFCOMM and OBEX).

Service Discovery
The Service Discovery Profile (SDP) defines the protocols and procedures used by a service discovery application on a device to locate services in other Bluetooth-enabled devices using the Bluetooth Service Discovery Protocol.

Serial Port
The Serial Port Profile (SPP) defines the protocols and
procedures used by devices using Bluetooth for RS-232 (or similar) serial cable emulation. The scenario covered by this profile deals with legacy applications using Bluetooth as a cable replacement through a virtual serial port abstraction.

Dialup Networking
The Dialup Networking (DUN) profile defines the protocols and procedures used by devices implementing the usage model called “Internet Bridge”. The most common examples of such devices are modems and cellular phones.

LAN Access Point
The LAN Access Point profile (LAP or AP) defines LAN access using PPP over RFCOMM.

Generic Object Exchange Profile
The Generic Object Exchange Profile (GOEP) defines the protocols and procedures used by applications that provide object exchange capabilities. The usage model can be, for example, Synchronization, File Transfer, or Object Push model.

Object Push
The object push profile defines the requirements for the protocols and procedures that shall be used by the applications providing the object push usage model. This profile makes use of the generic object exchange profile to define the interoperability requirements for the protocols needed by applications. The most common devices using these usage models can be notebook PCs, PDAs, and mobile phones.

Palm has tested there Bluetooth Software (2 releases; see above) very extensive before integrating it into there devices imho. I was hoping that Palm would add all (or most of ) the new Bluetooth Profiles (see that have been add to the Bluetooth Standard. But Palm isn't going to use all the new profiles Extended Systems Inc. is offering in there updated Bluetooth Embedded Software stack (Bluetooth Qualification takes some time). There XTNDAccess Blue SDK features the most complete support for user profiles in the industry including Personal Area Networking (PAN), Hands-Free, and Hardcopy Cable Replacement.

Maybe they go for simplicity and easy-to-use!? We will see these new Bluetooth profiles in new updated Palm Bluetooth Software releases imho.....I hope so.

I don't see many info on the uses of Bluetooth on this site as well elsewhere. I hope people will do more dd before they post certain things.....

More info on Palm OS5 Bluetooth Stack (update)
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 5:27:49 AM #
From the Palm Bluetooth Stack Qualification "This software is itself based upon the qualified “XTNDAccess Blue SDK” from Extended Systems."

Hmmmm, am confused. What does the words "based upon" mean exactly? The XTNDAccess Blue SDK offers much more profiles.....

XTNDAccess Blue SDK 1.2.1 Extended Systems, Inc.
The XTNDAccess Blue SDK (“Blue SDK?, version 1.2.1, is a portable software development kit. It provides source code for a complete Bluetooth Host protocol stack, including L2CAP, RFCOMM, SDP, TCS Binary, RFCOMM, OBEX, and other components such as a Management Entity.

Bluetooth identifier : B00003
Created Date : 2000-08-18
Spec version : 1.0b
PRD version : 0.9
Product ID : BlueSDK v1.2.1
Software Version : 1.2.1
Hardware Version : N.A.
Qualified Product Notice : QPL0002_A.pdf
Reference design application : Blue_SDK_Application_API.pdf
Capability Profile :
- Headset-AG
- Headset-HS
- OPP-Client
- OPP-Server
- CT-Term
- Intercom
- Fax-GW
- Serial-DevB
- Fax-DT
- Serial-DevA

Interop Devices : - N.A.

Product Type : Comp-SW-Integrated
List Date : 2000-08-18
Product Contact Person : Mr. Glade Diviney
Email :
Phone : +1.541.758.6123 x11
Company URL :
BQB : Fischer , Kurt

Time will tell.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 3:16:05 PM #
and WHAT is your point?????????
newton @ 9/18/2002 10:51:51 PM #
Integrated Blue-Tooth is good, but not good enough to cover the fatal flaw of the stupid 16M limitation.

Yeh, time will tell.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/19/2002 2:38:10 AM #
"and WHAT is your point?????????"

Maybe his point is that he has done his DD and gives us more info "behind the Palm Bluetooth integrated Tungsten" pda? What's wrong with that?

What do you add besides a silly remark like "and what is your point?"?????.......Zero. Nothing.

Add something or add nothing.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/19/2002 8:40:01 AM #
The "and WHAT is your point" person didn't phrase it good but I understand his point, please don't put 2000 word comments in. You're alot more interested in this than anyone else is. Put in a link or two for the benefit of anyone else who is interested and leave it at that.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/19/2002 10:54:03 AM #
Maybe he did it because people are very lazy and won't check the link?

Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 6:06:54 PM #
based upon what we appear to now know?
RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
PDA Master @ 9/18/2002 8:05:21 PM #
yes, I do. I have been planing on buying the tungston ever since we had the first article. This is palms first model with bult in blue tooth, Mp3 playback, speaker, voice recording, and a headphone jack, plus a hi res screen (320x320). It may not be sonys first, but this will be THE FIRST hand held running on PALM OS 5 and with a 175 MHZ PROSESOR. This is the revolutianary handheld.
Of cource I plan on buying it. $500 is a great price for something like this!


PDA Master

RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 8:24:09 PM #
I don't see why i should by it if SOny is going for $250, and even Toshiba E310 is going for $250-299 at discount.

It doesn't offer anything compelling at that price. (The buitl in BT doen'st worth that much) I seriously doubt it will be upgradable to OS 6.0 with such low spec.

I'll wait until Tungsten go for $300, or Sony come out with truely high end machine worth $499

RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
newton @ 9/18/2002 10:36:56 PM #
Certainly not.

Palm always misjudges the market requirement.

With 16M only for the new OS with a bunch of new add-on multimedia applications, you gotta be kidding, I do not see any serious/power user would be interested.

RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 11:35:07 PM #
Of course people will buy it. 3 beginning reasons:
1. It will be handsomely small and built of quality material.
2. Name is "Palm". They have more owners than all other pda company providers combined.
3. They have more owner loyalty than disloyalty due mainly to their comparibly strong reliability.
RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/18/2002 11:48:45 PM #
Is that Palm planning to do? Release it anyway ignoring all the criticism?

Large customer base is not a good reason to abuse the loyalty of customer.

RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/19/2002 5:02:02 AM #
Absolutely. I already have the money set aside for it. Day 1, I'll be there... :-)

Sony s*cks! :-P

RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/19/2002 7:30:18 AM #
i have ben using my M515 and waiting for the next palm release. After i read the features which is not very compelling, and since sony has been providing a 320x320, 16mb , with a cheaper price. I'll won't buy.

Probably handspring might provide a new Treo smartphone, with os 5, sd expansion, 320x320 resolution. That I shall buy.

RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/19/2002 8:31:01 AM #
I'm going to wait to learn more about Sony's and HandEra's OS5 PDAs before I commit.

A NR70V type with OS5 sounds good but the word on the PIC Forums is it will be $700, which is too much for my wallet. I know I don't want one from Sony if it isn't the clamshell shape.

I'm hoping HandEra will put out one with SD and CompactFlash slots.

Tungsten looks OK but I'm more interested in the XScale based one coming early next year from Palm. Don't forget about that one.

RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
Solo @ 9/19/2002 9:21:32 AM #
I am a Palm loyal customer, I've upgraded each year since 1998.

My only condition for Tungsten it has to have the same Universal Connector as my M515, if not, I'll reconsider.

I think it will be my last PDA.

I think Steven Jobs is right, Smartphones will soon integrate even the more advanced functions of PDA's. I'm tired of carrying two gadgets (plus the TCO). The only thing holding me right now, is still the difference in features ; in one year or two, they'll have the same features + phone capacities and good battery life, then PDA's will become only a niche market as Tablet PC'S.

RE: Informal Poll: Does anyone plan to buy Tungsten/Oslo
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/19/2002 11:10:06 AM #
Absolutely. Right away. When can i buy it?

The Bluetooth Tungsten is mine.


I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:58:03 AM #
The UK version has GPRS, but I can see no BT stack on the device....


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