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Comments on: Palm Unveils Tungsten and Zire Sub Brands

Tungsten LogoPalm Inc. announced today the creation of two distinct sub brands for its portfolio of handheld products -- the Tungsten and Zire families. No actual handhelds were announced, just two new lines of handhelds.

Tungsten will be the brand name for its high-end models aimed at mobile professionals and the enterprise work forces, while Zire will be its consumer brand.

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Tungsten MIM

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:21:48 PM #
MIM sounds like a RIM lawsuite waiting to happen. Heck, even the name sounds like RIM.

I'd say good luck. If they don't get sued, and the product is solid, I may be able to convince my company to use it instead of RIM. As much as I love RIm for it's wireless email capabilities, you can't do very much beyond that. I always miss havign aPalm device (and DateBK5) around when I'm on a RIM device.

But no doubt, RIM is the benchmark for corporate wirless email connectivity.

RE: Tungsten MIM
asiayeah @ 9/23/2002 12:30:23 PM #
Yes, I also suspect some patent lawsuits may be happening between Palm and RIM soon.

Palm is now entering the "push" e-mails market. That's certainly interesting.

Tony

RE: Tungsten MIM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:19:31 PM #
There is nothing here that even remotely qualifies for a lawsuit. 'RIM' stands for 'research in motion' and 'MIM' stands for 'Mobile Information Management' and you can't sue somebody just because they have an acronym that also ends in 'IM'. As for the product itself - it does not infringe on RIM patents nor does it interact with RIM technology inj anyway. 'Good' is beinmg sued becuse there product directly replaces RIM products - interfacing with patented RIM technology. Thats not the case here.
RE: Tungsten MIM
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:23:29 PM #
Newsflash: RIM is suing Handspring because it has a thumbtype keyboard. I'm betting a suit will be soon coming when Palm released the Tungsten W as well. You don't think they have a patent either granted or in the wings on the *concept* of syncing to a central server? That's a sucker bet with Lawsuits In Motion.
Palm MIM solution based on Thin Air Apps technology!?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:39:37 AM #
I thought the New Palm MIM Solution was based on Thin Air Apps Technology?. But it's NOT a cross platform solution like the Thin Air Apps server or XTNDConnect Server? No Pocket PC, RIM or Epoc support as far as i know.....
http://www.palm.com/enterprise/products/mims/tungsten_mims_faq.pdf

A pity that Palm didn't merge with MIM/Bluetooth leader Extended Systems Inc. As you might know, Palm is offering/using XTND's IrDA technology, MIM Solution called XTNDConnect Server (XTNDConnect Server is being offered as a migration path for current Palm HotSync server customers) and Bluetooth Solution (Palms OS 5.x Bluetooth Stack is based upon the qualified “XTNDAccess Blue SDK” from Extended Systems.)

Palm's rebranded XTNDConnect Server Device support includes Palm, Pocket PC, Windows CE and EPOC operating systems (adding RIM and SyncML). Microsoft Exchange, Lotus Domino and any ODBC-compliant database servers are supported. Connectivity to XTNDConnect Server can be wired or wireless through Ethernet, infrared, analog or wireless modems.
http://www.palm.com/enterprise/products/xtndconnect.html

What's Palm New Strategy?

Time will tell.

Intro: Mobile devices are entering the corporate enterprise in two distinct ways. The first is through the traditional IT infrastructure in which IT managers standardize a device and distribute it to employees. However, because of the low costs generally associated with PDAs, many employees are buying their own devices, bringing them into the corporate infrastructure, and asking IT to support them. This second method of entry is an unnerving prospect for many IT managers because it makes implementing mobile device hardware standards difficult. In reality, even if IT selects a single PDA platform, employee demand will dictate that they'll have to support other devices too.

It looks like Palm is offering a "New" MIM Solution based on there own (single) OS only (like Microsoft is doing with there Microsoft Mobile Information Server 2002. More and more enterprises are using different PDA's from multiple vendors. So a MIM Solution that support PDAs from multiple vendors (Microsoft Windows CE/Pocket PC 2002, Palm OS, RIM Blackberry, Symbian OS devices.) would be the prefered choice imho (see xtndconnect server for example).

any PDA cost between $99 and $499??

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:27:52 PM #
there seems to be a big gap. will m500/515 continue in the production line?
RE: any PDA cost between $99 and $499??
Ed @ 9/23/2002 1:51:36 PM #
This does not mean that Palm is phasing out any models. As new models get added, they will be part of one of these two brands.

---
News Editor
Tungsten and Zire, A Slight Clarification
Ed @ 9/23/2002 9:47:15 PM #
I don't think the press release Palm put out about this made something as clear as the analysts' conference call it held today. Tungsten is the brand for the enterprise and road warrior types and Zire is for consumers, not just entry level consumers. Don't get locked into the idea that Tungsten is Palm's high end and Zire is the low end. Price isn't the deciding factor. Products intended for consumers will be part of the Zire brand, while one intended for corporations and road warriors will have the Tungsten brand. The point is that while Tungsten handheld will generally be more expensive than Zire ones, this isn't a hard and fast rule. The example used during the conference call was that Palm might make an inexpensive handheld targeted at corporations, in which case it would be in the Tungsten brand, while it might make a high-end consumer model that would be branded a Zire.

Don't some of the PC companies do this? Have a line that is marketed to companies and another that is for consumers?

---
News Editor

Great post-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 11:42:24 PM #
There will be low and high end and low end models for both Zire and Tungsten. The separation will be in the features. I could see a Zire phone/pda that would cost more than a bare bones Tugsten. The features will determine the brand not price.
RE: any PDA cost between $99 and $499??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 11:35:23 PM #
Veld, Veld, Veld...

Veld is their mid-range, out in 1st Quarter.

Palm still stalling?

Scott R @ 9/23/2002 12:30:01 PM #
Gosh, what's taking so long? The OS came out months ago and today they announce the product lines with no details about the products themselves. Sounds an awful lot like a cheap ploy to prevent their stock from falling too far on the day they're going to announce their profits (or lack of).

Scott

RE: Palm still stalling?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:32:18 PM #
This is definately an odd marketing ploy.
RE: Palm still stalling?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:05:04 PM #
well, maybe the odd marketing ploy is to attract a buyout...we know they can be bought out since the 3com statute of limitations expired...so maybe tehy are trying a cheaper way to boost faith in the company and get bought/invested in before the new palms coem out...maybe they are worried they iwll lose money on the high-end market against sony's offerings.
just a thought.
RE: Palm still stalling?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:17:48 PM #
I don't know, the release date is still Oct. 28. If anything, it's smart to get a little awareness just before launch.
RE: Palm still stalling?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:22:37 PM #
Good things come to those who wait.
RE: Palm still stalling?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:31:49 PM #
Palm is doomed! Sell! Sell!

K

RE: Palm still stalling?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:45:09 PM #
> Palm is doomed! Sell! Sell!
>
> K

So how much PALM stock did you short before posting this?

RE: Palm still stalling?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 11:43:51 AM #
You have got to wait a while to have a good product, not a flop like pocket pc!!

better 802.11b solutions please

asiayeah @ 9/23/2002 12:31:34 PM #
The m500 series handhelds with the Xircom 802.11b shed is very bulky. I certainly hope they are able to produce a 802.11b access card in SD card form soon.

Tony

RE: better 802.11b solutions please
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:52:38 PM #
...which will drain the Palm's battery in hours instead of weeks.

I've got the Xircom sled and I love it---of course, I wish it were smaller but the size is mostly taken up by a huge rechargable battery. The 802.11b SDIO card (which will come out someday) will require too much power to be useful.


Crossroads for Palm

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:22:57 PM #
I was very pleased to see the leaked information and pictures of the Zire and Tungsten T/W last week. Designwise, the Zire looks like a winner - perhaps not to the techno-geek who reads PIC, but to the less craving users like students and those of us who can't afford to shell out hundreds and hundreds of dollars or pounds, euros, whathaveyou. The Tungsten models, well, the pictures and information available to date don't really tell us enough to praise or dismiss them.

But, and this is for the crossroads, Palm and Palmsource have to watch Bill and his Pocket PC camp. There is some formidable hardware coming out running PPC, and it will be a great shame to see the Palm OS loosing out in the high end playing field.

Johnny Christoffersen - UK

Tungsten is a terrible name.

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:29:24 PM #
I'm sorry. Maybe it will grow on me eventually but I just don't like it. Poor branding name in my opinion.
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:41:30 PM #
I agree ! Molybdenum is much better [it can be used to strengthen Tungsten]. But, Beryllium is even better, it has more Star Wars sounding name & is corrosion resistant ! So.. i want a Beryllium handheld ! [of course it'll be a 320 x 480 color screen w/ virtual graffiti & have blue tooth & GSM/GPRS capabilities & come in fusion red Magnesium casing. ;-)]

:: dk ::

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:10:51 PM #
I agree also. What exactly will the consumer be asking for at the store a Palm or a Tungsten? What is the name on the box and on the PDA.
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:16:29 PM #
Yeah it is kinda like naming a great car with a bad name...can't think of any right now...hope that the same won't be like palm. because usually bad car names don't last...
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:24:02 PM #
It will probably be like the Handspring's, "Can I see the Palm Tungsten T model?" Of course that doesn't roll of the tongue quite as nicely as "Handspring Visor Deluxe (or whatever they've got out now)" does... And I'm sure that's probably whats on the box too.

Regarding car names, they always try to mangle some good word into the name like the Integra. "Oh integrity?" "No integRA" So people think it's a good car. Of course Palm went with... well... you see what I'm saying.

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:39:42 PM #
Whether or not it grows on you (or us) is irrelevant. It is a terrible name.
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:40:09 PM #
"Edsel" comes to mind...
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:49:20 PM #
Better to ask for a Clie' - it has the track record to provide the specs the first replier is asking for!
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:54:00 PM #
Tungsten was a brand name of either a razor or a razor blade. Either Persona or Shick. Either way, it was a loser, just like Palm.
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:19:31 PM #
Someone actually thinks that Visor, iPac and Clie are better tradenames?

The name "Pilot" was the best of the bunch. They should have just bought, broken up and taken that tradename from the pen company with their initial IPO windfall. Can't afford to now...

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:28:58 PM #
Would have been an awesome name for a hardcase though.
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:23:22 PM #
Examples of great tech product names: StarTac, Pentium, Dragonball, PalmPilot, V, Windows, Macintosh, Latitude, Dimension, ThinkPad...

As Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue once said "If you start with a successful sounding name you are already successful." (Courtesy of VH1 - "Behind the Music")

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 5:38:55 PM #
One of the tests of a product name is the self-consciousness factor when using it. "Clie," is good enough, for example, that it might actually be used when referring to the product, but likely not good enough that you wouldn't consciously be aware of yourself calling it that. An example of a much better product name is "PowerBook," which is actually considerably more likely to be used by that product's owners than "notebook" or "laptop." "Palm" works this way (and especially Palm Pilot, which adds noun finality), but "Tungsten" fails on both counts: You would be unlikely to use it when referring to the product, and you would likely be self-conscious about the name if you did use it. (And if you said it to the pretty sales girl, you might even be slapped!)
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:16:15 PM #
and you guys like 'Clie' better???

you must be the crowd that loves to order a 'grande frapachino latte'.

The first thing i thought of when I read the name Tungsten was a clean cut, cool grey metal (probably because of the platinum/tungsten rings...) an image that i'm sure palm is trying to convey. Clean cut, simple and cool....


you want to talk about sounding like an idiot at the store...i STILL don't call it a "Clie" for fear of sounding stupid...."Sony handheld" is just fine, thanks.

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:41:31 PM #
>"Yeah it is kinda like naming a great car with a bad name...can't think of any right now...hope that the same won't be like palm. because usually bad car names don't last...
"<

Well, Chevy marketed the Nova in Mexico, with it's English name. Unfortunately, in Spanish, "No va" roughly means "it doesn't go".

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:43:02 PM #
Tungsten is a very hard, strong metal, often used in place of depleted uranium for armor piercing rounds. Something like Tungsten would be good for armor as well, if it were affordable.

If you go to Palm's page, Tungsten isn't just about the handhelds. They seem to be positioning it as a full complement of corporate utilities. So the name Tungsten would convey the idea of strength and security.

Just my $0.02 =)

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:09:19 PM #
If the Tungsten turns out to be a great product, no-one is going to care what its called. Only time will telll
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:46:53 PM #
>"no-one is going to care what its called."

Never underestimate the power of GOOD Marketing/Brand.

RE: agree...bad name.
Cheetah @ 9/23/2002 10:59:08 PM #
I think the Visor, iPaq and Treo are all good names, but Tungsten is terrible.

I even like Razor better as a name, although I guess the scooter took that name after it was Palm V's code name.

I'm sure that names go through focus groups, but I think they blew it on this one.

Product/company names that I've liked have been Apple's Titanium, Acura, Intel's Xeon, Nikon's Coolpix.

Zire is ok, but Veld is also bad.

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:27:15 AM #
Funnily enough, Razor has just released a PocketPC, the Razor Zayo.
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:29:29 AM #
I like the name. It's like some mighty knight in Vikings age!
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:24:24 AM #
Tungsten is not a good name, but it probably doesn't matter.

The average person in the street refers to Palms as PalmPilots still, and most people talk of what they do with their Palm, rather than their M100/105/130/515 etc. It really doesn't matter if its Tungsten, Boron or whatever, as most people will still continue to talk about how great (or not) their "Palm" is.

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:17:08 AM #
Just so some of you know, Tungsten is a strong metal.
someone said: "Would have been an awesome name for a hardcase though." I agree, because they could actually make a case made of tungsten. Anyway, enough rambling. Palm has always been known as handheld brand. Even tech-un-savvy people knew which company Palm was. So... by changing that, it is like they are losing all public awareness of Palm. You will hear students saying "hey mum, I want a tungsten for christmas" and the mum will think to herself "what is tungsten?". This is a bad example, but either way, its a really bad name. It doesn't even sound nice. If Palm thinks they are going to make it easier for people to walk into a store and say "I want a tungsten T" they are very wrong. It looks like I will be buying a Palm M515 when they get cheap, then watching Palm crash and Burn over the next 2 to 5 years. Very sad... but currently the way palm is going, inevitable.

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 5:37:04 AM #
In Sweden "Tung sten" means "Heavy Stone" !!
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
Servo @ 9/24/2002 7:38:27 AM #
"Well, Chevy marketed the Nova in Mexico, with it's English name. Unfortunately, in Spanish, "No va" roughly means "it doesn't go"."

Off Topic: This is an urban legend. The car wasn't a failure in Mexico because of the name. Think of it this way...it would be like a furniture company in the US marketing a dinning room set under the brand name "Notable." Would you think no one would buy it because who would want a dinning room set with "No table"? Notable doesn't mean the same thing as "no table" just because it's made up of those two words. I bet most people wouldn't even notice the coincidence. It's works the same way in Spanish.

It's a cute story, but doesn't hold any great marketing lesson.

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 8:48:28 AM #
I just heard on Bloomberg radio today a VP from Palm say that "Tungsten is known by lots of corporate IT people as a precious metal that is strong and solid." (I'm paraphrasing a little here). they said they just made the name Zire up.
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:57:54 AM #
Tungsten sounds like somebody is trying to hard to have a cool name. It's too long.
RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:46:21 PM #
>>Examples of great tech product names: StarTac, Pentium, Dragonball, PalmPilot, V, Windows, Macintosh, Latitude, Dimension, ThinkPad...<<

I never thought "Windows" was a good tech product name, even before it was fashionable to beat up on M$. Windows is too generic, and refers to a commonplace thing made of glass that breaks easily...oh wait, maybe it's a better name than I realized.

W is the chemical symbol for tungsten
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:39:00 AM #
More fun facts to know and tell about tungsten:

http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/elements/74.html

RE: Tungsten is a terrible name.
Fly-By-Night @ 10/15/2002 7:16:28 AM #
<-- Off Topic: This is an urban legend. The car wasn't a failure in Mexico because of the name. Think of it this way...it would be like a furniture company in the US marketing a dinning room set under the brand name "Notable." Would you think no one would buy it because who would want a dinning room set with "No table"? Notable doesn't mean the same thing as "no table" just because it's made up of those two words. I bet most people wouldn't even notice the coincidence. It's works the same way in Spanish.

It's a cute story, but doesn't hold any great marketing lesson.
-->

Maybe so, but the Toyota MR2 in French is pronounced 'em-air-duh'; exatcly the same as the French word for 'sh!t': merde!

Also, I think the Nissan Cedric is possible the worst ever name for a car. Just be thankful the Tungsten isn't call the Palm Alfred or something (apologies to all Alfreds out there!).

FBN

Show me the SONY!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 12:52:51 PM #
These new high-end Palms look great and are definately a step in the right direction for Palm. But if this is what Palm will be offering, I can't wait to see what Sony will come up with! Hopefully an OS5 NR-70V smartphone. (I think Palm should have incorporated Virtual Graffiti into OS5 like they did with hi-res.)
RE: Show me the SONY!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:28:12 PM #
Wow dude what a good idea, I never thought of the NR70v as a smartphone but now that I do, why not?! It's got the clamshell shape and it would fit perfectly, the only thing is you'd get like ear marks on your LCD =). But that's not bad, they could include a numpad underneath the keyboard and a mic even below that, awesome idea. Now I'd only have to carry 2 things with me everywhere (NR70VSP and wallet =))
RE: Show me the SONY!
mcseym @ 9/23/2002 10:10:18 PM #
Not a bad idea. The NR70 is big enough to have the speaker/mic incorporated in one of the halves of the case, say the keyboard half. Swivel the screen to the tablet position and there's no worries about the marks on the screen. Throw in TriBand and GPRS and you're laughing. I would buy this even if it didn't have OS5.

Matt

RE: Show me the SONY!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 12:17:11 AM #
Sure- OS5 doesn't really add anything new, anyway! Sony NR70V smart phone would be the ultimate combo!!
RE: Show me the SONY!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:13:17 AM #
Why have it so that you must open it to make a call/talk ?

Check out the HP 928, forgetting the Microsoft bashing etc. just looking at the layout of the hardware etc.

I think it would be better to inlude the phone element into the screen section.

Screen open, works as speakerphone.
Screen closed, speaker at hinge end ouside, mic at bottom outside.

Screen flipped round, speaker and mic at the same location, but operated from the reverse side.

Zuber

MIM Solution

Scott R @ 9/23/2002 12:54:57 PM #
Just looked over the details about the MIM Solution on the Palm site. Also found the price on their press release ($2499 for the server software plus 25 user licenses). This sounds like a pretty good product which will compete well against RIM's offerings. Most notably, the calendar, to-do syncing should be better thanks to Palm's better PIM functionality. It's still sad that MyPalm bit the dust. This solution meets the needs of businesses better (they didn't want to go through Palm's server for security reasons among other things), but Palm's missing the boat on the low-end consumer who would love to have this sort of functionality at a low-cost. I'm betting that Danger is going to own this market fairly soon.

That said, there are still fundamental problems with this and Palm's i705 solution. Palm needs to get a small thumbboard integrated into the device. They should offer something in a form factor similar to the Hiptop, though with a twistable screen ala the Sony NR70 series (thus allowing for stylus or thumbboard input). So long as Palm does not offer an integrated thumbboard, the i705 will compare poorly to the Blackberry for composing wireless email or instant messaging.

Scott

RE: MIM Solution
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:06:43 PM #
You might be right with Danger. But I do see some, pardon the pun, danger with their solution model. Essentially, it allows the carrier to "own" your data. There's no slot where you can save your contacts, etc. and no true syncing with your PC. Nice strategy for the carrier since they limit churn, but bad for the consumer looking to own their private data.
RE: MIM Solution
kevdo @ 9/23/2002 3:43:50 PM #
>That said, there are still fundamental problems with
>this and Palm's i705 solution. Palm needs to get a
>small thumbboard integrated into the device

Um... did you see the spy photos of the new Tungsten W device? See the recent PIC news story on Palm's new "smartphone".

-Kevin Crossman

RE: MIM Solution
Scott R @ 9/23/2002 3:51:07 PM #
"Um... did you see the spy photos of the new Tungsten W device? See the recent PIC news story on Palm's new "smartphone"."

Yes, I'm aware of that. If they can offer the same sort of package that Danger's device will supposedly offer ($40 for unlimited data and a decent amount of voice minutes) and get the device to sell for about $300, it could indeed be a formiddable offering. But, I tend to doubt that either of these will be the case. If it sells for $500 and you have to pay per the megabyte, it will have a marginal impact.

Scott

RE: MIM Solution
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:27:04 PM #
MIM strikes me as pretty idiotic. Why do we need yet another piece of custom software for Palms, plus training and maintenance costs?

We have SSL, (X)HTML, PersonalJava, and IMAP. Those are sufficient to implement all the enterprise handheld integration anybody could want. If Palm needs special server software, than the Palm handheld has a problem. Microsoft is, of course, trying the same stuff with their junky handheld Office and scheduling applications.

Come on, guys, wake up: if you keep selling crap, people won't buy your hardware. Make your handhelds support standard protocols. Put the smarts to handle the mobile and disconnected aspects of using networked applications on the handheld itself. Don't try to trick people into buying into yet more complex, non-standard software hacks.

RE: MIM Solution
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:55:18 PM #
>> We have SSL, (X)HTML, PersonalJava, and IMAP. Those are sufficient to implement all the enterprise handheld integration anybody could want. <<

You'd think so, but people are still running Exchange and Domino servers. Tungsten MIM is for these people.

And to the person that brought up the demise of MyPalm, the problem is it's hard to provide that functionality to people for free. And now that Yahoo! can do almost all the stuff MyPalm used to do, the market for such a thing is dead.

Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:15:38 PM #
Ho Hum...
Another GPRS/GSM model -- and the pda/phone selections for those networks become more and more crowded.

Meanwhile the pda/phone selection for CDMA is practically non-existent -- unless you want to get the outrageously priced Thera or go with a TREO on Sprint's crappy coverage.

You can argue all you want about which is better, GSM or CDMA, but the fact is -- Verizon has the best coverage nationwide (no, I don't work for them) and the crappiest selection of phones of all.

Am I the only one who feels this way and is everyone else satisfied with the lousy network coverage of Cingular, VoiceStream, T-Mobile, Sprint -- just so they
can get the cool pda/phones??

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:26:46 PM #
CDMA/TDMA are widespread in the US, but every other country in the world that has prolific cell phone usage uses GSM or GPRS or some combination thereof.

Also a couple of US carriers have issues PR to the effect that they intend on expanding GSM/GPRS coverage in the US.

Like it or not, CDMA is still a niche market when you consider the global viability of your product. As you say, there are expensive options, but not many. Welcome to life in a niche market.

So patience will obviously be required in getting niche support for PDA-Phones. It is still conceivable that support will grow - look at how the availability of organic and vegetarian products has grown. But also recall how long that actually took.

And just as an aside - I use Cingular. Their coverage is WONDERFUL for my needs. I don't do a lot of traveling, and no one has a better plan than the one I have. If one becomes available, I might switch, but I will probably tend to stay with GSM/GPRS as it offers many more options. If I found that GSM service sucked, that would be a factor, but as all the companies expand, I don't really see that as a pproblem. Maybe CDMA/TDMA will develop something that will change my mind - it's quite possible.

Learn patience - you'll be better for it.

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:30:38 PM #
I agree! I've been with many cell companys and verizon has great coverage. But the phones suck. I have a T68i in front of me on the att GSM service and I only get a signal in about 35% of the area I do business in every day.
RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:32:45 PM #
I'm right behind you. Verizon's excellent in my area but the only cool phone is the Kyocera QCP 3035, the one I laid out quite a bit of dough on at the time, not to mention it crashing on me loosing all my contacts twice, but thats a different story. Anyway Cingular and Sprint and all them have all the good phones and smartphones and the best service is left with crap.
RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:39:44 PM #
RIM will release a CDMA device this year.
RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:41:58 PM #
Hello? Have you missed the envious comments from the GSM camp regarding the Kyocera 7135 announcement? Or the Samsung bluechip/M330.

In fact none of Kyocera's or Samsung's smartphones are available in GSM versions.

CDMA:
Qualcomm PDQ
Kyocera 6035
Kyocera 7135 (announced)
Samsung I300
Samsung M330 (announced)
Samsung I330 (announced)
Treo 300

GSM:
Treo 180
Treo 270
Palm Tungsten W (announced)

Sounds to me it's the GSM world that's getting the shaft.

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:42:31 PM #
Regarding the comment:

"Like it or not, CDMA is still a niche market when you consider the global viability of your product. As you say, there are expensive options, but not many. Welcome to life in a niche market."

"niche market" -- I don't think so -- in addition to the 10's of millions of US CDMA subscribers, there are several countries in Asia (ie Korea) that use CDMA.

TREO on Sprint -- that's a "niche".

And the comment:
"It is still conceivable that support will grow - look at how the availability of organic and vegetarian products has grown. But also recall how long that actually took."

???

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
Token User @ 9/23/2002 1:46:00 PM #
???

Treo 300 (released, and hard to get hold of from stores - they are selling REAL well).
Kyocera 6035 (monochrome, lots of fans but soon to be outpaced by the 7135).
Kyocera 7135 (RSN - Yay!)
Samsung Bluechip (RSN - Sounds good too ...)

Those are the PalmOS PDA/cellphone combos.

On another front, Verizon/Sprint/KTTI/KDI/Alltel have a swag of Brew enabled phones coming that are also very cool - but more from a cellphone with PDA functionality perspective than PDA with cellphone pov.
There are some great phones that unfortunatley have only been released to the Koreana and Japanese CDMA markets so far ... but variations of many of them should be here soon as well.



RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:00:43 PM #
6035 -- Are you kidding?? What a dog (monochrome, big, clunky, ugly).
The 7135 was announced back in June and there is still no official release date.
The Samsung currently available is also old and has a crappy color screen.

I already mention Treo 300 -- for Sprint -- another network with lame coverage.

The ONLY decent pda/phone available for Verizon is Thera -- for the outrageos price of $799.--

If you've kept up with released pda/phone combos released this year, you'd know that models for GSM
are far more plentiful and more functional, better screen quality, better form factors, etc. than CDMA (except if you want force yourself to go with limited Sprint coverage).


RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:18:33 PM #
I also agree. My coworkers/relatives and I have had service for at a year with all of the major carriers in the past couple of years....Verizon still beats them all if you do a lot of nationwide travel and are out in rural/fringe areas. I have a v60 from them and it suits my needs perfectly. I'll take great coverage, good service (in-house firmware upgrades, that's a huge plus), and a reliable phone over a glitzy Korean model with substandard coverage and useless, overpriced features (mp3, digital camera,etc) any day.

Verizon also does a nice job of letting you use their "Quick Network" feature to get online...without having to subscribe to their mobile web service.


RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:33:00 PM #
I want it all -- good coverage AND cool pda/phone
combos. I don't think you have to sacrifice one for the other -- especially with a huge company with vast financial resources like Verizon.

C'mon Verizon -- get some decent, affordable (ie less than $800) phone/pda combos.

I'm tired of carrying around 2 devices.

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:21:04 PM #
You morom,

You I-can't see beyond my border excuse for intelligent life. GSM is the WORLD STANDARD. REPEAT: THE WORLD STANDARD.
CDMA sux. CDMA is ploy to rip you off and you defend it? Oh, you MOROM! Get with it sukhead.
You are pretty excited about SMS, eh? It's new, eh? WRONG, SUKKER! IT'S ABOUT FIVE YEARS OLD! You are just living a techno-backward country held hostage by a CDMA vendor that pays your government. SUKKER.


RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:49:51 PM #
Wow, that was mature...


RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:49:51 PM #
to the previous "you morom" poster:


check out the WORLDWIDE CDMA coverage here:

http://www.cdg.org/world/cdma_world.asp

Then take an anger management class and learn how
to make at least a semi-coherent post.

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:08:35 PM #
"for the outrageos price of $799.--"

If *you'd* been following the smartphone market, that's always been the case for new smartphones. That's the cost of the convenience of carrying one device on your belt instead of two. You don't get that for the same price as only one device. That plus the fact that the sales volumes of those are typically less than the volumes of stand alone PDA's and stand alone phones. So you the consumer pick up a greater share of the manufacturers expected revenue.

"If you've kept up with released pda/phone combos released this year, you'd know that models for GSM
are far more plentiful and more functional"

Blah, yes we're sooo hard done by as CDMA users [picture me playing worlds smallest violin]. And yes my phones have always been CDMA.

"better screen quality, better form factors, etc. than CDMA (except if you want force yourself to go with limited Sprint coverage)."

Oh, and like GSM coverage in the US is anything but limited...

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 4:15:28 PM #
"You I-can't see beyond my border excuse for intelligent life. GSM is the WORLD STANDARD. REPEAT: THE WORLD STANDARD.
CDMA sux."

Then go live in the "world" and be happy. Here in North America CDMA is what we do. Like it or lump it.
You think there's no good reason for it?

MUCH reduced power usage, far more handsets per tower (good for both the provider and the end user), easier migration to 3G, faster interim 3G data. Sure you can get some good GPRS performance in the mean time, but at the cost of a good number of time slots on the network. I can just imagine the TV commercials to ensure similiar to the high speed cable vs. ADSL with neighbors calling each other bandwidth hogs... We'll be seeing GPRS users looking around for other GPRS users on the same tower, and saying "OK, whose using all the time slots!" [Enter the voice of James Earl Jones and the Verizon solution...]

In fact it may trouble the CDMA haters when they do their research at GSM and CDMA association websites to glean that the technical reasons are so compelling that the migration path of GSM ends in the CDMA camp as well. Perhaps someone will chime in with, "all your air-interfaces are belong to us"...
UMTS will use a CDMA air interface (Wideband CDMA). So get your terminology straight. Your issue isn't with CDMA, it's with IS-95, the protocol that the Verizons and Sprints use over a CDMA air interface.

One might look to iDen (Nextel and Telus Mike) for relief as it's feature set is more GSM like, in areas like flexible call forwarding etc. In fact, having toured the switch facilities in Canada, it even runs on GSM switches. But even there, Nextel has announced migration to CDMA.

But regardless, even for a PDA news site, we've bashed that argument to pieces in previous threads here, and there's little to be gained with further whining along those lines.

Deal with it. Even if the arguments were constructive, they serve little point here.

-Craig Bowers

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:59:51 PM #
Gee, it's eerily quiet all of a sudden....


LOL!

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
drw @ 9/23/2002 7:09:46 PM #
> 6035 -- Are you kidding?? What a dog
> (monochrome, big, clunky, ugly).

When you say 6035 think "workhorse", "robust", "durable". While past it's prime, it's still useable. I use it every day, couldn't make it through a single work day without it.

> The 7135 was announced back in June and there
> is still no official release date.

Info was leaked, kyo lawyers tried to get the leaks plugged, then finally it was announced with a release date of "Q4".

> The Samsung currently available is also old and
> has a crappy color screen.

Nope, it's a nice color screen that can double as a flashlight in the dark.

> I already mention Treo 300 -- for Sprint -- another
> network with lame coverage.

Now here's the crappy screen, that puts off concentric lcd waves when tapping it.

> The ONLY decent pda/phone available for Verizon
> is Thera -- for the outrageos price of $799.--

You are so off base with that comment. Thera is a PocketPC with a dialer added on. You can't dial from pocket outlook which must be synced with the dialer address book. It only has 8 hours of standby (vs 150 hours for the 6035). To use as a regular phone you have to hold it upside down because they got the speaker and the mic backwards. It's a brick too, and has no screen protection. I've dropped my 6035 about a dozen times from waist height onto asphalt, concrete, tile. It takes a lickin and keeps on tickin. Can your pocketpc phone do that?

> If you've kept up with released pda/phone
> combos released this year, you'd know that
> models for GSM are far more plentiful and
> more functional, better screen quality, better
> form factors, etc. than CDMA (except if you
> want force yourself to go with limited Sprint
> coverage).

I've kept up with them. They're not ready for prime time. Especially the T-Mobile, PocketPC Phone Edition. Who wants to reboot several times/day?
My 6035 is 16 months old and I maybe soft reset once every couple months.

---
David

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 11:41:29 PM #
I have found the best way to use a palm with Verizon Wireless is to simply get a phone and connect to your PDA (I have an M515) via a serial data cord and a null modem. The following site tells the steps you need to take to set up your Palm connection (including the modem script you need to run).

http://www.markspace.com/datacord_verizon.html

I've been doing it for nearly a month now and I'm thrilled with it. I use ICQ to chat, Eudora to check email and browse the internet (two separate programs), and use countless other PQA's designed for PalmVII's. And for the most part, I use my free night and weekends!


RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 11:56:13 PM #
Sorry, I forgot to say that I already subscribed to mobile web (for like $5 more a month.

[I posted saying I connect using a Palm m515 to Verizon phone (it happens to be a Kyocera QCP 3035)]

RE: Will we ever see decent pda/phones for CDMA??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:25:39 AM #
Hello, Craig! Glad to see you beyond the alt.cellular.clearnet!

Anyway, don't forget the Kyocera 7135's twin - Samsung SPH-i550! Another Palm/phone hybrid...

GO Handspring Go Sony

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:35:35 PM #
While Palm works on stupid corporate and enterprise solutions on handhelds which only spells high prices. Sony and Handspring I hope will come out with consumer oriented products which are the real money makers. Who cares about enterprise or corporate solutions, Microsoft already dominates that area and with upcoming tablet pc's and I guess within same price range, you can guess by yourself what will happen, Palm will always stay behind in concept design and ingenuity.
RE: GO Handspring Go Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 1:59:08 PM #
Oh, good grief. Another AOL user lectures on market forces and the road to financial prosperity.

Ignorance is bliss in this context would be you keeping yours to yourself.

RE: GO Handspring Go Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:04:55 PM #
Great, Another PPC troll.
Have faith in the platform. Remmber..Palm's are still cheaper than most PPC's, except for the toshiba e310 (I might buy that one...too sweet :), so Palm's still have an advantage over PPC's.
RE: GO Handspring Go Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:18:47 PM #
Yeah, it´s really stupid to care about million earning-hundreds of employees corporations whem I´m ready to spend $300 on a new PDA... maybe even $500!!!

Geez, how can Palm be always so wrong?

RE: GO Handspring Go Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:22:22 PM #
Microsoft "dominates that area"? They are certainly gaining ground, but hardly domination. I work ooin a building with around 2000 people (a site of over 10,000) and the number of PPCs I see are outnumbered by the Palms by at least 3 to 1.

Oh, and each platform has its own set of difficulties integrating with our corporate office and e-mail. Neither works overly well.

I still think that the technology exists to bring full Pentium II or higher class PCs to the PDA form factor and wonder why the notebook vendors just don't do this. OS in ROM, fast boot times. 100% compatibility. Seems like a natural move.

RE: GO Handspring Go Sony
drw @ 9/23/2002 7:33:36 PM #
> Sony and Handspring I hope will come out
> with consumer oriented products which are
> the real money makers. Who cares about enterprise
> or corporate solutions, Microsoft already
> dominates that area and with upcoming tablet
> pc's and I guess within same price range

A circuit city associate told me the only reason Sony produces Palms and not PocketPC's is that they view Microsoft as a competitor (as in Xbox vs Playstation). I know, lame explanation, but there are probably lots of companies who would prefer to deal with anyone else besides Microsoft. Thus Palm and Linux offer alternatives.

And you think TabletPC's are cool? How about the price tag of about $3,000? Still cool? You think they're going to let execs and purchasing managers look sheek (sp?) without having to fork over an extra grand for that priviledge?

---
David

RE: GO Handspring Go Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 7:44:16 AM #
> While Palm works on stupid corporate and enterprise solutions on handhelds
> which only spells high prices. Sony and Handspring I hope will come out with
> consumer oriented products which are the real money makers.

What part of Palm introducing the Zire sub-brand as entry-level did you miss in this article?

RE: GO Handspring Go Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 11:45:49 PM #
No Tablet PC is priced at $3,000. More like only 10% above the costs of a notebook. And many are convertibles. For Tablet PC info, a good site I found is http://www.tabletpctalk.com

Taking bets on the future of Five

sandbuck @ 9/23/2002 2:46:14 PM #
I figure the odds of a 500-series ARM at about 50% and dropping. Any other predictions?

RE: Taking bets on the future of Five
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 3:23:11 PM #
I would peg it higher. There is no midrange palm yet, and that is surely going to use OS5.
It probably won't use bluetooth and will probably be color screen etc.
RE: Taking bets on the future of Five
kevdo @ 9/23/2002 3:46:54 PM #
I would guess the m130 and m515 (or slightly reworked version) will be sticking around for some time, at a reduced price. Palm said they would be announcing three new models and those are all accounted for.

Tungsten T is essentially a OS 5 version of a m515 with slightly different body style. Priced around the same but using the new OS, Bluetooth, etc.

If I was a betting man I would guess the m130 goes to $200 and the m515 goes to $325-$350.

-Kevin Crossman

Veld = mid-range consumer device?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 7:05:31 PM #
Palm registered three names, Zire, Tungsten and Veld. It looks like the common element in Tungsten is the ability to play in the MIM wireless environment, via bluetooth (Tungsten T), wi-fi (M5xx +sled) or cell (M7xx and Tungsten W). Zire is the low end. Veld could be the mid-range, non-wireless device.
Veld is gone!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 7:33:01 PM #
Veld was one of 3 names that Palm trademarked in the US in May. Zire, Tunsten and Veld. In July Palm trademarked the names Zire and Tungsten worldwide. Nothing more has been done with Veld. For now the Veld is just a name that was considered and then not used. It happens all time.
Veld = mid-range consumer device?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:48:01 AM #
I doubt it... Palm already announced that OS 4 is here to stay and will co-exist with the OS 5 models. Thus the m130,m515, etc. will be the mid range consumer devices targeting on would be users that doesnt need much processing needs and multimedia from OS 5.

What about Zire?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:45:36 PM #
What do you all think about the name and concept of Zire? I guess all consumer models going forward will have this name. Any ideas on future products (other than the pre-announced model) such as phones or mid level PDA's?
RE: What about Zire?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:59:55 PM #
I think that Zire is a much better name than Tungsten. I also think that Zire is a pretty good choice for a consumer brand. Palm can mold the meaning of Zire into whatever it wants because it lacks any current meaning.
Tungsten on the other hand conjures up images of a tongue, cheap metal or dim interrogation type lighting. The name had a bad sound and tons of negative built in "baggage".
RE: What about Zire?
drw @ 9/23/2002 7:45:29 PM #
I deZire to Zire a baby. (sexual connotations)

Tungsten sounds like a crash-proof device. Both names won't get used. Both will be referred to as "my palm".

Pentium was the 586 and it was thought that each iteration would have a new name, but they stuck with pentium on through MMX Pro, II, III, 4. That means we should be running a 80886 processor by now.

Too much effort is going into the name thing. It will quickly be forgotten and become part of nomenclature as coke, pepsi, and sprite. Like "lincoln town-car" Does that mean it's unsuitable for driving on country roads? How about "Windows NT based on new technology" I have a box that says that, but isn't that redundant since NT already means that? What's the successor to XP? "XP version 2 with whitening and tarter control? :-)

---
David

RE: What about Zire?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 8:54:25 PM #
It doesn't matter what the call it. People will still call it a "Palm Pilot", just like what they call every handheld now.

I just give up. "Is that one of them new Palm Pilots?". "It's a Cli-what?". "It's a i-what?". "Who-spring?"

RE: What about Zire?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:44:53 PM #
>"Too much effort is going into the name thing."

Never underestimate the power of GOOD Marketing/Brand.

Is this all?!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 7:30:07 PM #
I guess for avid fan of Palm OS devices, I a bit frustrated about these products. We waited so long for Palm OS 5.0 device to justified replacing Palm OS 4.0 device yet this is what we got. No wonder Palm Stock share are falling down. Re: enterprise solution, Palm has no open source or GPL tools for enterprise synchronisation solution. Don't tell me to buy a $1000 tool just to get synchonised with a database. Remember that Palm only survive because of hobbist palm users who are willing to spend money just for intelictual satisfication and hopefully convinced this bosses to use these devices in real job situation, hence, cheap / free are necessary.
RE: Is this all?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:37:45 PM #
All Palm really is good at is decent, pragmatic design and usability, and some of that has carried over into the user interfaces of the initial Palm apps. In terms of software architecture, the company doesn't have a clue in my opinion. In fact, what self-respecting OS or application programmer would want to work for Palm at this point, given their architecture and UI libraries?

When the ARM-based Palms come out, people will hopefully port one of the open source handheld platforms to it and give it some decent software base. Existing Palm applications will continue to run in such an environment under emulation, just like they do with PalmOS5.

If Palm were smart (fat chance), they'd then drop PalmOS6 and move over to something better. At least they should tolerate it. If they try to fight it, they'll lose.

RE: Is this all?!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 2:35:02 AM #
I am the guy who wrote above.

You are right that Arm-based Palm OS devices will be ported to Linux in no time. C# will be a candidate computer language to use. Ximian will port mono soon to Arm-based platform. Qt# will be coming to this devices as well.

Treo/Tungsten

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:01:02 PM #
compare the Treo logo and the Tungsten... they are both just text with a - over one letter.. coincidence?

Leaked pictures fake then...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:26:38 AM #
...or didn't anyone but me notice that the logotype of Tungesten on this article differs from the logotype i the leaked picture from earlier?

/Robert

Too much memory!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 3:33:37 AM #
For the Zire, many people comment it as palm's reinvented PDA.


However, I would say the "revolution is not thorough".

The entry level should go back to Pilot 5000 when palm's initial comment on RAM issued: "You never need more than 512K memory!"

RE: Too much memory!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 6:15:40 AM #
Is it a joke?

The T

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 4:37:42 AM #
looks like the Austrian flag :-)

Veld

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 11:30:37 PM #
I think Veld is their XScale based Palm. It will
probably be their mid-range product. Why they would
do an XScale is beyond me, considering the Palm
support for the Beta XScale tools wont even be
available until November. They are probably doing
it as a favor to Intel who is helping them develop
Palm OS 5.0 using their XScale reference boards.

Personally, I'm excited about the Tungsten products.

Dungsten

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 12:29:24 PM #
Hey - I thought of a new name!!!
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