Comments on: Rumor: Additional Pic and Details on the Palm Tungsten T

Palm Tungsten T - Click for Larger ImageIn what possibly confirms the earlier information about the Palm Tungsten T, a German Computer Catalog has published a picture and details on the upcoming model.

Palm recently announced all of its high-end products will be part of the Tungsten line. Its new smartphone will be called the Tungsten W and there is also the Tungsten MIM Solution a wireless email and groupware access suite.

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Still unsure

Foxer @ 10/14/2002 12:05:04 PM #
Well, it looks kind of cool, but I still don't know about the sliding thing. I think that it would get kind of annoying, but thats just me. I guess that i'll just have to see it in person.
It is also a little more expensive than I had originally thought. Basically this will put it in the same range as the new sony. It does have built in BT which is nice though.
I'm still debating on which new PDA to get, between the compaq PPC, the NX70v, or this new palm. Right now i'm leaning more towords the Sony, just because of the 'coolnes' factor I guess, but it also has the multimedia capabilities that i like, and the nice screen. Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I'll just have to hold out a couple more weeks untill I can see and compare them in person.

RE: Still unsure
Palmcicle @ 10/14/2002 12:19:38 PM #
I am also hesitant because of the sliding mechanism. The story states that the Tungsten will 'take full advantage' of the new miltimedia capabilities...I wonder if it will have a native Mpeg player. I am ready for movies on the fly.

Phew! Whats that smell!?! Did someone Zire in here? Buy Palm's only a nickle.
RE: Still unsure
asiayeah @ 10/14/2002 1:10:05 PM #
The sliding mechanisms reminds me of some models of the Nokia Mobile Phones. Some of its high-end, executive models do charge people a high premium for a sliding cover of the numeric keypads.

One model even provide a sliding cover that will slide out gradually itself by simply pressing a button.


RE: Still unsure
asiayeah @ 10/14/2002 1:19:37 PM #
The Nokia 8910 is the model I was talking about.

And so are the Nokia 8855...etc


RE: Still unsure
Taqi @ 10/14/2002 1:55:19 PM #

I am still in the grey zone!

I want to get my daughter a Palm (we home's_COOL!)

I have my M505 and I would like to give it to her but I want a PDA with Blue tooth, Sony would have it if they just had Blue tooth, I think the only thing blue about Sony is the blueness of my face as I wonder why they did not put blue tooth in!

Tungsten T
Sliding bits and pieces, can you imagine, your at your friends, they all want to have a look, you can't ersist, you don't want to be rude you let them play with it and then oops, the sliding bit has just gone, "Gee sorry...."

I just remembered WHY these things fail! I used to have a Psion 5mx, and it had a sliding key board in clamshell design. When you opened it both the screen and the key board kid of slid out. To make that work they had a connection to the screen which would elongate and roll up for the wirse going to the screen. I used it daily and after 1 and a half years the screen stopped working. I went to a psion Engineer and told him about the problem and he said that this was a well known problem and the frequent opening and closing of the machine caused the wire to wear out and the only solution was to replace the entire screen at the cost of 150 pounds (240 dollars)... that's when I switched to Palm!

Now you could be really cynical and say that PALM KNOWS the sliding mechanism is going to break in one years time, by which time they will release their next product, the guarantee runs out and you have a choice, spend 250 dollars and repair lasy years technology or just spend a bit (few hundred - what's that between friends) and keep the LATEST SCREAMING PALM!

Did somebody mention something about XS profits somewhere?

I think Palm will go down the tube, I really wanted them to succeed, but I think the Sony designers may still be on the Sony payroll ("You must give them an excellent design, just don't tell them it will break in three months." secret meeting with Sony CEO They replied in unison "By your command")

So where to now? PPC? The thought makes my heart bleed but the thought is beginning to germinate in my head again...I hope Palm don't have idiots in their marketing think tank and they release the Tungsten T for reviews at least a week early so we cn be armed with info......a hope....

"Subaa huti hai shaam hut hai yuhee zindagii tamaam huti hai" (Urdu)

"Mornings arrive, evenings arrive and thus life comes to an end"

RE: Still unsure
Altema @ 10/14/2002 2:26:57 PM #
I'd have to see the sliding mechanisim before deciding on reliability. I have other devices that flip and slide with no problems. One is my Nokia 7160 phone. Although a better modem than it is a phone, it gets pretty brutal treatment and has never failed or given me problems despite the microphone being in the sliding part. On the other hand, my Sony phone broke last night after hitting the carpet, and it has NO moving parts except for the buttons.

RE: Still unsure
alexp @ 10/14/2002 3:14:23 PM #
I think "wait and see" is a good policy on this one. It's a bit knee-jerk to assume that the slider makes for a broken PDA waiting-to-happen. People said the same thing about the twist screen on the Sony NR series (although ironically, the *hinge* appears to have created some problems with creaking).

Heck, if you try had enough, you can imagine dozens of things breaking in a PDA, so I wouldn't assume that the slider will be the "make-or-break" (pun intended) feature.

RE: Still unsure
fleegle @ 10/14/2002 3:21:55 PM #
The failure of the sliding mechanism affecting the operation of the Tungsten T depends on how it is used. If the sliding mechanism is used to turn on the unit, then there is high potential of making the PDA unusable. If it is a cover for the graffiti area, then it would only be a hassle if the slide didn't lock in place.

If you look closely at the picture, it looks like there is a power switch on the top left side of the PDA (it doesn't look like the IR port to me). If that is the case, then I feel better about the slide.

RE: Still unsure
djpedro @ 10/14/2002 3:36:04 PM #
What I don't get is how people try to deciding between the Sony and Palm decry the Palm for having a slider, while the Sony OS 5 PDA turns and twists all over the place. I also don't get how worries about a sliding mechanism warrants not buying the machine. If you are worried about the slider, don't slide it. That simple. It won't wear out that way. Problem solved. :)

RE: Still unsure
somas1 @ 10/14/2002 4:06:50 PM #
If you are unsure about the slider, wait til this product drops in price and buy a 99$ compusa warranty. They will repair your palm after the mechanism wears out. (Accidents and wear and tear are covered under their warranty)

RE: Still unsure
dsm363 @ 10/14/2002 6:05:50 PM #
I'm not sure but I think the same goes if you buy the Best But warranty for 4 years or whatever it is. That should cover the slider part.


RE: Still unsure
savvy @ 10/15/2002 5:31:13 PM #
I've been driving my wife crazy about this for the last few weeks. Sony or Palm, back and forth. So I finally listed out what I truely wanted in a PDA and stacked Sony up against Palm. I took out all "cool" unecessary factors because I know that I won't use them in the long run figuring if I wanted to have an MP3 player the IPod would be a better choice. Even so they stacked up pretty close, but overall the Palm won. Sony would have won if I included the "cool" features that I found useless in my day to day life.

Although I'm going with a Palm, I long for the higher resolution and virtual graphiti of the Sony. The rest of the Sony I can live without especially that proprietary memorystick slot.

RE: Still unsure
anondude @ 10/15/2002 9:58:34 PM #
Somewhere above it was mentioned that Sony does not offer Bluetooth. In fact, they offer a Bluetooth Memory Stick in Japan today. I heard that they will sell it for US$199. I also heard that the designers overlooked that the CLIE flip cover can't fold over the PDA with the Bluetooth stick inserted.

Which catalog did this appear in?

speedracer5 @ 10/14/2002 12:14:22 PM #
Is it known which catalog this appeared in? Just more idle curiousity to do a little searching online. I will agree with the previous poster I am not fond of the slider idea. It is more from the standpoint that usually mechanical parts fail before their electronic counterparts. Beside my M505 has met the floor a few times and survived, I just think the slider mechanism may be less robust from a durability standpoint. If the new Sony didn't waste the space with the compact flash slot and had SD instead of memory stick, I would consider Sony.

You may be a race car driver at heart if you refer to leaving your driveway as "Turn 1"
RE: Which catalog did this appear in?
perdi @ 10/14/2002 12:58:12 PM #
The order-number and the picture background looks like conrad (printed version).


Rough and Weird Translation

skccs @ 10/14/2002 12:22:00 PM #
As a daily reader of PIC I try to translate the article, which might result in not having every vocabjulary in mind:

"The innovative Tungsten T, the handheld of the next generation from palm ist the perfect compagnon for the professional mobile user. Tungsten T delivers a maximum of performance with an minimum of weight. You can work and communicate alwas and everywhere. The clever? slider covers the grafitti-area with the ergonomic 5way-navigator and shortens the handheld to about 10 cm. Thank's to the high-res color-display oft the Tungsten Tworking with microsoft-office-files or with pictures is easier than ever. Using the included bluetooth-technologie, you will be able to communicate wirelessly with compatible devices. Also voice-recorded-files you will be able to store or to transfer (not explained in which way in the original text).

Device includes?:

High-res TFT-Display (320 x 320) and frontlight . Bluetooth 1.1 . Storage Capacity 16 MB . Operating System Palm OS 5.0 . 144 Mhz ARM Processor

Deliverd together with: Pencil, transparent protection cover, USB Dockingstation with Batterycharger and CD-ROM ."

This description seems to be from a non pda-specialized dealer, as some of the specs are missing (like for ex. sd-card-slot).

You'r right ed, in europe the devices are usually more expensive and (sniff) the nx70 has not even been anounced :.-(

Christian Stocker

RE: Rough and Weird Translation
asiayeah @ 10/14/2002 12:54:19 PM #
Thanks a lot for the translation!

> Deliverd together with: Pencil, transparent protection
> cover, USB Dockingstation with Batterycharger and CD-ROM > ."

I believe a stylus is included, instead of a pencil? ;-)


RE: Rough and Weird Translation
skccs @ 10/14/2002 1:34:11 PM #
Yes you're right. Stylus is the right word for it. I'didnt have the time to look it up in an english-german dictionnary. Sorry.

Christian Stocker
RE: More expensive in Europe
Zuber @ 10/14/2002 1:53:00 PM #
>>>You'r right ed, in europe the devices are usually more expensive<<<

It's worth remembering that in Europe we are paying 17.5% VAT. Most countries don't pay anything like that. Taking that into account, I don't think the manufacturers/retailers can be blamed (in most cases).


RE: Rough and Weird Translation
amike @ 10/14/2002 1:58:11 PM #
In Europe, prices are increased about 1.5 times.
So 649Euro may be about 435$....

RE: Rough and Weird Translation
henrik @ 10/14/2002 4:35:27 PM #
Be glad you only have 15.7% VAT. In Sweden we have 25% VAT (sales tax).

RE: Rough and Weird Translation
Gepeto- @ 10/15/2002 2:59:49 PM #
In Quebec, Canada, we have 15.0025% sales tax, plus our money isn't worth ****, and products are not released here very fast, so getting it from usa with shipping makes it 170% of the US sales price... Actually the NR70 was 1000$ when it was released here :(

Shaky contender

PalmusMagnus @ 10/14/2002 12:31:28 PM #
Tungsten|T is a questionable entry into this niche of the handheld market. If the specs and price point of the new Dell PPC are true,

this may be the end of Palm in the enterprise.

RE: Shaky contender
stupidnewpolicy @ 10/14/2002 12:53:39 PM #
I agree that Palm needs to hire some marketing consultants to help them better understand their customer base's desires. Sony obviously has some clue what people are looking for. The Tungsten seems to be a bit overpriced, especially in lieu of the Dell PPC PDA.

Palm has the ISV support - for now. They need to work to ensure that remains true, and they also need some better design engineers - particularly ones with some consumer electronics experience. The sliding thing sounds neat, but it's definitely not a feature worth paying extra for.



RE: Shaky contender
SaabCaptain @ 10/14/2002 1:07:18 PM #
I hope the ad is wrong because it says it will have a 144 mHz CPU as opposed to the 175 mHz CPU we were expecting. While I would never buy a Pocket PC because of the OS it shows that for the $449-499 this unit will cost they could have easily packed in a 300-400 mHz CPU and more RAM based on a $199 Dell with those hardware stats.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.
RE: Shaky contender
Altema @ 10/14/2002 1:08:40 PM #
The price point of the new Dell will be the killer feature. It's an old-time method to gain market share at the expense of initial profits. Undercut the competition so bad that they lose their profitability if/when they try to match prices.

There was only one defect looking at the Dell specs, and that defect is Windows. A big minus for the majority of handheld users, but a plus for a few...

RE: Shaky contender
SaabCaptain @ 10/14/2002 1:26:11 PM #
The Pocket PC OS is horrible. But man when you read the HARDWARE specs for $199 you are left gasping... nothing has EVER, EVER come close. Nothing. Take a 300 mHz processor, 32 megs of RAM... put it in a Tungsten T for $199... dear God what a machine that would be. But even for $300-350 it would a steal for the Palm OS, but at $450-500 well... now we are overpriced.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.
RE: Shaky contender
alexp @ 10/14/2002 3:21:32 PM #
Blah, blah, blah...

Haven't we heard "this is the end of Palm" dozens of times before? Has it ever been right? Don't think so.

Yes, the rumored Dell entry is an incredibly impressive feature set for that price. Yes, the Palm is probably overpriced compared to the Dell and the Sony NX series.

BUT, you've got to also take into account that the rumored Dell specs place it among the bigger PPC's. Toshiba's got more appeal than this when it comes to size, and the Toshiba still seem significantly bigger than the Palm flagship models.

You've also got to take into account battery life. If the Tungsten delivers here, the name, the slider, and the lack of soft graffiti will mean much less to people.

Consider availability. Will I be able to SEE a Dell at a store, or will it be available only via mail order?

How about portability? You're more likely to see someone carrying their m505, flaws and all, than to see someone lugging around a PPC, despite its impressive hardware.

I'm not saying the Tungsten is going to be a definitive winner, but it's a bit premature to label it a sure loser based on a few rumors. And it's downright insane to rehash the "Palm is dead" argument based on ONE device.

RE: Shaky contender
jayhawk88 @ 10/14/2002 4:06:37 PM #
"Sony obviously has some clue what people are looking for."

To be fair, it's more like Sony has a clue what people who read this site are looking for. I.E., lots of cool-ass features and all the latest technologies. Witness the guy complaining about it maybe only having a 144Mhz processor instead of a 175Mhz.

Everyone likes toys, but the average Palm consumer is probably not going to require stuff like built-in cameras and flash memory expansion slots when making a purchasing decision.

RE: Shaky contender
SaabCaptain @ 10/14/2002 5:38:57 PM #
"... Witness the guy complaining about it maybe only having a 144Mhz processor instead of a 175Mhz.

Everyone likes toys, but the average Palm consumer is probably not going to require stuff like built-in cameras and flash memory expansion slots when making a purchasing decision."

---> I was the guy complaining about the 144 mHz processor vs. 175 mHz but I think I was justified and your argument fails to hold water.


The average consumer does not buy a $450-500 Palm with the latest OS, they buy the m130 or Zire. The Tungsten T is targeted right at us, the power users and early adopters. What does Palm OS 5 offer? Not much difference frankly in PIM functions, OS look or feel, and the built in apps. What it does offer is the POTENTIAL of multimedia, something the old units and old hardware couldn't. So someone who is buying a Tungsten T likely is going to want to play MP3's, play new modern games (maybe Quake like on the Pocket PC), some video, tape voice etc. These things require ever increasing horsepower and you can bet the difference between 144 mHz and 175 mHz and 200 mHz will be noticed in those applications (note I didn't say core OS functions.) Further if I know that they could have slammed a 300 or 400 mHz processor in there and still made a profit it makes me even more frustrated, because the high powered hardware is EXACTLY why you are buying a new Sony or Palm, because that IS what OS 5 is all about. If you want to run PIM applications, and play Bejewelled then keep your OS 4.1 unit but me... I want the promise of OS 5 and what it has to offer, which is multimedia, and already Palm is charging premium price for lack of the high powered horsepower their conversion to ARM/RISC processors promised in the first place.

This isn't a flame, but saying that mHz doesn't matter in the new OS 5 units is niave.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.

RE: Shaky contender
sandbuck @ 10/14/2002 6:45:55 PM #
>> The Tungsten T is targeted right at us, the power users and early adopters.

I disagree. Palm has made it clear that their high-end devices are targeted at enterprise users; IT department heads that place orders for tens or even hndreds of PDA's annually.

I am very loyal to Palm OS as a consumer, but completely objective as a businessman. Forced to choose between the Tungsten and the new Dells, Dell would win on price alone, assuming wireless and network connectivity options are as cheap as the base units. I hope Palm is ready to give deep discounts to corporate purchasers, otherwise the Tungsten|T is a non-starter.

RE: Shaky contender
jayhawk88 @ 10/14/2002 11:10:52 PM #
It's true that OS5 is the logical progression of Palms moving to more, better and bigger features, but I still think you're missing the point of what Palm is trying to do. Since guys like Sony and Handspring have been making Palm models, Palm themselves has never been worried about selling to the "geek" crowd. And rather been content to rely on the brand name to drive the "middleware" sales. Whether this was the correct philosophy or not is debatable, and whether they should continue to do this now that the OS is "spun off" is questionable as well. But I do think that this is what you're seeing here.

Palm isn't trying to go for the "biggest and best" here. They probably figure they can't compete with Sony for that title anyway, considering the 3 month production schedule those nuts in the Sony labs seem to be on. In Palm's eyes, 144 (or whatever) Mhz is still over twice the processor they've ever been able to talk about before, and it should be more than sufficient for anything their first few models will try to do.

RE: Shaky contender
SaabCaptain @ 10/15/2002 12:32:33 AM #
So why doesn't Palm sell the unit at a much lower price, still making a profit (as is seen by the fancier but cheaper PPC hardware) and therby make a killing amoung both consumers and enterprise? Instead they give up the consumer to either people who desire very low end, ie. the Zire/m130 or a low cost PPC on the "neato (but sucky OS) high-end" and then lose the enterprise to the low cost Dell units?

If Palm wants to differ themselves why don't they sell the Tungsten T at $299-350 and make a killing in consumer and enterprise space?

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.

RE: Shaky contender
Altema @ 10/15/2002 2:35:39 AM #
"and therby make a killing amoung both consumers and enterprise?"

Good question, but they would need to restructure their entire pricing lineup on all models. I think the primary reason is to recover some of the research and development cost. But, can you imagine if they released the Tungsten T at $300? There would be a *hugeP rush for this device. And after all those years of work, and finally getting up to 21%, the PPC market would collapse.

RE: Shaky contender
ska @ 10/15/2002 7:34:41 AM #
Microsoft is on the marketshare grabbing mode. They won't let $300 Tungsten goes unanswered, in fact the ViewSonic V35 is already sold at $250 even before shipping. Most probably the new Toshiba E330 will also have to match.

If Palm introduce Tungsten at $199, you can bet there will be a drove of 2-300mHZ low end with 32/64mb ready to answer the price war.

Thus far Microsoft has answer every marketing challange, including interface design complain, size, and now price. All while adding feature for each itteration. Palm hasn't evolve as fast. Palm's product cycle and OS update cycle are simply not fast enough to keep up with Microsoft pace.

RE: Shaky contender
JT @ 10/15/2002 11:34:34 AM #
oh here we go again, as has happened with every Palm released in the last few years, where's this feature, where's that feature, Microsoft does it so much better blah blah. Please give it a rest, I came here to discuss the new Palm, not what anybody else is offering

RE: Shaky contender
Zippy @ 10/17/2002 12:11:48 AM #
Ah man, not another one of those psycho Pocket PC fanatics ranting and raving again. You guys were claiming that Palm was going to die 4 years ago when the latest WinCe abortion came out.
Go back to re-booting your unit and pray that your data is still there...

I hope its not $500

derby @ 10/14/2002 12:40:55 PM #
I really hope the this unit comes in around $400-450. I don't see myself paying more than that for a PDA.

-- derby
RE: I hope its not $500
Bleekerstreets @ 10/14/2002 3:24:58 PM #
well, there are other PDAs out there that wont be 500 bucks...this isnt gonna be the only PDA available.

So here is what they did SPRECHEN...

NoBackup @ 10/14/2002 12:42:03 PM #
Palm Tungsten Handheld

The Innovative Tungsten T, a next generation Handheld from Palm, is the perfect companion for the High-end mobile user. The Tungsten T offers Maximum power with a minimal of weight. You can work and communicate anywhere. The ingenious Slider covers in use the writing area (Graffiti) with an ergonomically designed 5 way navigator and in so doing reduces the handheld to just 10cm. Thanks to the High resolution color screen, work with Microsoft files or the viewing of pictures has never been easier.
Via the integrated Bluetooth technology, it is possible to communicate with other compatible devices. Even Voice recording can be created, saved and transferred.


High resolution Color Screen (320 x 320)
Front Lighting
Bluetooth V1.1
16MB Memory
Palm OS 5.5
144Mhz ARM CPU

Package contents

Main Unit
Transparent Cover (Case)
USB Docking station
Power Adaptor

Size 102 x 75 x 15 (H x W x T)

RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
SaabCaptain @ 10/14/2002 12:48:21 PM #
144 mHz CPU? I thought it was going to be 175? I hope this is an error because with the Sony's offering a 200 mHz CPU (which has a 1.2 mip rating per mHz as opposed to the CPU in the Palm which is only 1.0, so the difference will be clear if it is 144/200 spread) the Palm will be much slower, espically with multimedia programs that OS 5 users will want to run. Further it will devalue the unit even more when you consider a 300 mHz is now being offered in units as low as $199 when this unit is $449-499.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.
RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
asiayeah @ 10/14/2002 1:32:14 PM #
So is there any real benchmark for multi-media applications for Tungsten T verus the Sony NX?

The Tungsten T is going to use the OMAP1510 processor and built-in DSP chips. I believe most multi-media applications should take advantage of the DSP chips for fast performance and yet power-savings. So it's probably not fair to judge by simply looking at the CPU hertz.


RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
ginsberg @ 10/14/2002 1:50:27 PM #
Sony is using Intel's XScale processor. Palm is using Texas Instruments OMAP 1510 in the Tungsten T. Although both chips use an ARM core, there is not a direct apples-to-apples comparison between the MHz ratings, not unlike Pentium 4 vs. Athlon. So don't wet your pants just because Sony will have higher MHz.

RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
SaabCaptain @ 10/14/2002 2:11:24 PM #
Your right, the XScale processor in the Sony runs 1.2 mips per mHz while the Palm's TI processor runs only 1.0 so head to head isn't accurate... it is WORSE FOR PALM. That said maybe the DSP in the Palm will make all the difference but don't bet on it.

I am sure the Palm apps will fly on either machine, but OS 5 is about multimedia for the first time and video, MP3's etc. will all need the horsepower. So will more advanced games etc. What makes it worse is the 300 mHz XScale processor in the new Dell only clocks in at $199 vs. the $450+ for this unit.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.

RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
ska @ 10/14/2002 3:15:29 PM #
>>The Tungsten T is going to use the OMAP1510 processor and built-in DSP chips. I believe most multi-media applications should take advantage of the DSP chips for fast performance and yet power-savings. So it's probably not fair to judge by simply looking at the CPU hertz.

If a software takes advantage of OMAP DSP, than it won't run on Xscale or it has to be modified since Xscale doesn't have DSP. but it has some multimedia extension codes. So developers have to keep 2 different versions in the scenario above.

RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
alexp @ 10/14/2002 3:35:13 PM #
If all you care about is clockspeed, buy the Dell. Heck, buy the Genio 550, which'll run at 400mhz. Of course, please realize that PPC2002 isn't optimized to use the extra mhz. So even though you might get more mhz for the $$$, you won't really be able to use it. Kind of like drafting a wide receiver for his blazing speed, then realizing he can't catch the ball and is afraid of contact. "But his contract is cheap." So what?

Anyway, as I understand it, PalmOS 5 is supposed to use the full capabilities of the new chips.

You might also consider that Palm might use a lower mhz to conserve battery life. Lest we get the vaunted 5 hours Sony announced for the NX series...with the backlight OFF!

RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
bcombee @ 10/14/2002 7:23:06 PM #
With Palm OS 5, all the OMAP DSP code will be hidden behind the Sound Manager subsystem. Basically, the programmer doesn't need to know that the chip is an OMAP, she just writes her code to talk to Sound Manager, and it handles using whatever sound hardware is provided.

Anything hardware specific is either hidden behind the hardware abstraction layer, or its supported by optional shared libraries, much like the CLIE's hi-res and enhanced audio is today.

Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at

RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
Fly-By-Night @ 10/15/2002 6:22:17 AM #
Sony's have a separate DSP chip anyway (hence the unit can act as a MP3/ATRAC player without interfering with the ARM). I assume that there must be various APIs to get these different DSPs working.

Also, how different is the architecture of an ARM core used in PPC to those used for PalmOS 5? You hear of people sticking Linux on their PPC handhelds. Could we buy a Dell or Toshiba PPC and somehow put Palm OS 5 on to it? Just a sudden though -- probably far more complex than it initially appears!

Would be interested in other people's thoughts.


RE: So here is what they did SPRECHEN...
ska @ 10/15/2002 7:31:22 AM #
NX, Zaurus A300, Dell all use Intel's PXA 250. Tho' they do need different drivers for various system parts.


SaabCaptain @ 10/14/2002 12:41:21 PM #
I know Palms tend to be more pricey in Europe but did you all notice the Euro price on this thing? The Euro is almost one for one with the dollar right now so this unit is well over $600 in Europe!

I have a feeling this unit will clock in higher that $449 but lower than $499 here in the US but when you consider the $199 Dell has a faster processor and more memory it seems way overpriced.

Before anyone jumps on me I don't see the Dell $199 unit as a competitor because it has the piece of s**t Pocket PC OS but that said it proves that the Tungsten T will be $250 - 300 more with LESS hardware (slower clock speed and less memory.)

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.

RE: Price
NoBackup @ 10/14/2002 2:50:11 PM #
Don’t Forget This is either a German or Austrian so the price already includes the sales tax !!!

This being 15% and 19% respectively

That means EURO 607.83 or EURO 587.39 without tax this is the figure that you should compare to the $$ cost.

In Europe and the UK all cost for the End User must be include in any displayed prices...unlike the states or Canada!

RE: Price
NoBackup @ 10/14/2002 2:55:42 PM #
BTW I think also there is a levy raised because it is not manufactured in Europe or the US…much like the additional Customs raised on Sony products when they are imported, thus hyping the price… so you cant really compare apples with apples…in this case…

EU Cars are more expensive in the US than in Europe and the same car is cheaper than both Here in Dubai…

Too Expensive

Mr PC @ 10/14/2002 12:45:10 PM #
This is way over priced compared to the sony.

The NX will be €699.00 (NV was when released) only €50 more, for which you get a whole lot more features.

The small size is GOOD but why so expensive.

RE: Too Expensive
Dennizlerim @ 10/14/2002 1:15:48 PM #
Don't care for that price. conrad has always been way too expensive... I would guess that it will be no problem to get the Tungtsen for €599 within the first week.
If you're lucky maybe even for 500-550

RE: Too Expensive
XScale @ 10/14/2002 1:24:34 PM #
Yes, despite having a better, sleeker operating system, this is a disturbing trend for Palm. One of there biggest selling points to the average consumer has always been cost. Now there will be at least 3 full-featured Pocket PC models $299 or less in stores for Christmas and only the OS 5 models can match them feature wise. The Sony's will be $499-599 and the Tungsten line $449-499 and up.

Sorry, but only Palm enthusiasts like the ones that read this board will overlook the $200+ price difference. New users are going to be snapping up those $199-299 Pocket PCs. Amazon is already pre-selling the new ViewSonic V35 (which appears to have an amazing screen and 64MB RAM!) for $249! I think that Palm almost has to price the Tungsten T at $399 or they are really going to be fighting a battle here.

That said, I hope the new Palms do well and the hardware is rock solid. Built-in Bluetooth may be the saving grace of the Tungsten T, since only a couple of the Pocket PCs offer that. I just think they would be wise to aggressively price these as low as possible, especially if they want to advance in the enterprise market.

RE: Too Expensive
Altema @ 10/14/2002 2:00:00 PM #
"New users are going to be snapping up those $199-299 Pocket PCs."

Yes they will. Then they will look for someone to show them how to use it. Then they will get tired of extra complications and leave it at home. I know from experience. PPC2002 runs loads better than did WinCE, but it's still Windows and is still more complex than it needs to be. One of those new users is on his second PPC after almost a year, and it still takes him a good ten seconds to even pull up how much free memory he has on his handheld.

We're at an intersting point in history. It seems like what the world wants in hardware, PPC has it. But what the world wants in an OS, Palm has it. You can upgrade and develop new hardware, but do you think MS will ever drop Windows in favor of Palm OS? I don't think so either.

So do we choose between the really fast car, or the not quite so fast car that's more expensive? Logic dictates that we go with the faster/cheaper solution, and we are usually happy with our choice... until we go to get into the car by turning the key, flipping the mirror out of the way, rolling down the window, and climbing inside. No problem, we can master this with practice...

RE: Too Expensive
MaryJoS @ 10/14/2002 2:47:33 PM #
Well, I've long been a fan of the Palms and their ease of use. I switched to a PPC for a short time before coming back. But I totally disagree that a new user would find it so hard that they would return one in favor of spending $200 more on a Palm. PPCs are not THAT hard to use and someone who has never used a Palm would really not even know that it's a lot easier. I probably would have been perfectly happy with the PPC if it was my first device.

RE: Too Expensive
alexp @ 10/14/2002 3:47:02 PM #
I beg to differ: new users apparently aren't "snapping up" anything. I don't have the URL on the article, but PIC reported not too long ago that handheld sales were down again. OS5 isn't likely to change that.

OS5 models are only going to excite geeks like us who follow this stuff. And anecdotal evidence along the lines of "two of my friends went for PPC because it plays mp3s and was only $249 on Amazon" is hardly marketing stats.

Let's face it, a lot of the PDAs that sell are from REPEAT customers like us who have owned anywhere from 2-15 handhelds in the past 3 years. (Like I said, we're all geeks.) TRUE "new users" still don't want to drop $200 on a PDA--they see it was a useless toy.

This is why I think, as I hold my nose, that the Zire m150 is a good move for Palm. I can't stand the lack of backlight and the 2-button design, but it's still HALF the cost of a $200 PDA, and despite the lack of relative features, Joe Sixpack sees it as a better deal. You may not agree, but that's what he sees.

RE: Too Expensive
ska @ 10/14/2002 7:35:34 PM #
what makes you think the $199 will never come with coupon of some sort that will reduce it to $150 after awhile?

and what makes you think there is no $99 PPC in the drawing board somewhere?

Built In Bluetooth

OcellNuri @ 10/14/2002 1:32:39 PM #
One thing that the Tungsten has over the Sony NX series is that it has built in bluetooth. On the Sony bluetooth will cost you $200, and take away your MS slot. I'm just excited to see that the Tungsten really is shipping with bluetooth. Toshiba is showing off that new 5gig Bluetooth external hard drive... :-D

It's "Ocell" for short.
RE: Built In Bluetooth
SaabCaptain @ 10/14/2002 1:36:48 PM #
I am trying to see how much a bluetooth access point for my PC will cost and it seem unbelievably high... until the price goes down on this (computer access points), they get built into *most* laptops, or bluetooth handhelds make up much of the market it doesn't do anything for me.

I'll buy it anyway of course... ;-)

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.

RE: Built In Bluetooth
ganoe @ 10/14/2002 1:45:05 PM #
Why would you want a Bluetooth access point for your PC? If you want to connect your Palm to your PC or the Internet (relatively near your PC), just get one of those cheap USB Bluetooth adapters for your PC.

Yes, the true Bluetooth to Ethernet access points are still too expensive. Hopefully they'll get into the same price range as the 802.11b ones soon.

RE: Built In Bluetooth
mikemusick @ 10/14/2002 1:48:42 PM #
As of last week, Bluetooth for your PC is fairly cheap. Check for their $60 USB Bluetooth dongle. This is essentially the same device that's been out for the Mac since last April, but now there's finally Windows support for it.

Personally, I have been procrastinating buying the Bluetooth Memory Stick for my T615 because of the high initiation fee. It looks like that was the smart move, because now I can put that $200+ towards a Tungsten and get the other latest whiz-bangs, too!

Neat stuff!

RE: Built In Bluetooth
Fammy @ 10/14/2002 2:20:10 PM #
Bluetooth keyboards and mice are coming to the PC. They'll have to include a USB dongle or something. Maybe just get one of those and get a fancy smancy keyboard for a little more.

On a side note, it'd be cool if you could use your PC's Bluetooth keyboard for the Tungsten. =)


RE: Built In Bluetooth
Mandroid @ 10/14/2002 5:02:12 PM #
Hrmm. When you have a bluetooth keyboard, how do you determine which device it will send input to? I.e. if you have, say, a desktop computer, a laptop and a PDA all with bluetooth and start typing o the bluetooth keyboard, which device does the text show up on?

My understanding of most bluetooth devices is that they basically detect each other automatically, but it seems like something like a bluetooth keyboard is going to require some additional step.

RE: Built In Bluetooth
tvoung @ 10/14/2002 8:24:43 PM #
I am sitting here on laptop making use of the home pcs modem by beaming internet connection through the wall via Bluetooth, also got the Nokia 7650 bluetooth camera phone sitting here.
Its flexible, you chose what one you want to contact out of the list, my laptop does not suddenly try to send its whole hard disc to the phone!
When i dialled up the laptop did not try to dial via the phone etc etc.

RE: Built In Bluetooth
SaabCaptain @ 10/15/2002 12:36:36 AM #
MS has some box art on somewebsites showing their new "Multimedia Desktop for Bluetooth" which is composed of a USB Bluetooth dongle, bluetooth multimedia keyboard, and bluetooth wireless optical mouse. The price will be barely over $100 for everything it appears. The dongle by itself will be very cheap, all coming by X-mas.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615.
RE: Built In Bluetooth
FredLL @ 10/15/2002 4:34:34 AM #
The D-Link DBT-120 is available at Amazon for $40 !


Bluetooth Prices come down when VOLUME kicks in (see 802.11)
pdangel @ 10/15/2002 4:57:36 AM #
Bluetooth Roundup
By Anthony Newman | Contributing Writer
October 9th, 2002

Bluetooth isn't simply about ridding the world of cables...


"There are 2 kind of people my friend....those with wires and those without"

All New HP/iPAQ 5000 series will have built-in Bluetooth
pdangel @ 10/15/2002 5:04:41 AM #
All New HP/iPAQ 5000 series will have built-in BT=Bluetooth (see picture, scroll below)

Originally posted by cecina
The pictures of the HP/iPaq 5400 model looks exactly the same as the 802.11 & BT model shown at

Will all models have BT=Bluetooth?


Yes, got those pictures from Brighthand. As far as I know all future iPAQs will have Bluetooth.
Founder and Publisher

"There are 2 kind of people my friend....those with wires and those without"

PDA's with Built-In Bluetooth Wireless
pdangel @ 10/15/2002 5:29:09 AM #
1. Compaq iPAQ H3970 Pocket PC (400Mhz, Bluetooth, 64MB)

2. Compaq iPAQ H3870 Pocket PC (206Mhz, 64MB)

3. Fujitsu Siemens LOOX Pocket PC

4. Toshiba e740 Pocket PC

5. Intermec 700 Color Pocket PC (integrated Bluetooth/802.11/GSM,GPRS: now shipping)

6. CASIO introduces the new DT-X10 industrial handheld terminal with built in C-MOS imager and Bluetooth Wireless running Windows CE.NET

7. Palm Tungsten T: PalmOS 5, 175 MHz ARM 9T CPU plus a 200 MHz DSP, 320 by 320 screen, 16 MB RAM, Built-in Bluetooth, TI OMAP (coming)

8. HP/iPaq 5000 series all with built-in BT=Bluetooth

PDA Report: "I expect a few will make the mistake of looking at the US and concluding that Bluetooth isn't important. In Europe it is. Bluetooth phones, like the Sony Ericsson T68, are selling well and there are more models on the way from Nokia and the other major handset vendors. The partnership of GPRS mobile phone and handheld, linked by Bluetooth, opens up many possibilities," said Buss. "We strongly advise handheld vendors to focus on integrating Bluetooth rather than GPRS and compete actively for the customers who will prefer a two-device wireless data solution. It's good to see vendors promoting Bluetooth, but an integrated solution is always going to be preferable to an expansion slot approach, and easier for the customer to configure and use."

"There are 2 kind of people my friend....those with wires and those without"

Too thick

wilco @ 10/14/2002 2:53:08 PM #
It's a high-end device and Palm had always prided itself with it's V/m series form factor and that it's the slimmest PDA around. Now Sony (Palm OS) and Pocket PC (Razor/Toshiba) had produced similar slim devices while Tungsten T is getting thicker at 15mm. If Sony can produce a OS5 device with the T series form factor, it's bye-bye time for Palm's hardware division...

RE: Too thick
hotpaw4 @ 10/14/2002 3:20:45 PM #
In terms of volume, the Sony NX is more that 50% bigger, not counting the bulge in back, than the T. Much bigger if you count the bulge. The T is about the same volume as the m505. The T's smaller size, built-in bluetooth and the probably much better battery life will be will be its major selling points over the NX.

I wonder if they underclocked the T to make its battery life advantage much much better than any ppc handheld?

I haven't seen any info on the size of the rumored $199
Dell yet. In cell phones, smaller size devices usually command a significant price premium.

RE: Too thick
alexp @ 10/14/2002 3:55:31 PM #
First off, I am SO TIRED of the notion that ONE device can destroy Palm's hardware division. We've been hearing this for how long?

Secondly, "size" is more than just "thickness." Y'know, "L x W x H," as the previous poster pointed out. The Toshiba e330 has a thickness that rivals the m5xx series, but it's still bigger. The Tungsten adds W but subtracts H. Sony did this with the SL and SJ models, but I didn't hear anyone griping about that. Why gripe about it for the Palm?

One final plea: can we get people to stop making statements like, "If can make with , it'll be the end of Palm?" First, it usually centers on a feature the WRITER wants, which means they make the assumption that what they want is what everyone wants. Second, it endorses the faulty logic that there exists some magical device that, if Sony/Toshiba/HP/whoever ONLY INTRODUCED THIS, they would destroy Palm and have total control of the handheld market FOREVER! It simply doesn't work this way.

RE: Too thick
djpedro @ 10/14/2002 4:48:00 PM #
alexp, I'm in total agreement. There is no one magic device that is going to wipe Palm off the face of the earth, and Sony is not the be all-end all of the Palm market. Also, I wish that people would voice concerns rather than complaining about a device that hasn't even been released yet.

RE: Too thick
ska @ 10/14/2002 7:34:06 PM #
Sony wiped out Handspring. Ipaq wiped out $499 Palm.
RE: Too thick
alexp @ 10/14/2002 10:20:00 PM #
LOL! Good one! Oh, wait, you were serious...

OK, then. "Sony wiped out Handspring?" Be serious. Handspring's not what they once were, but they're not gone, they're just in a different market now. And remember, not too long ago, Handspring was at the forefront of Palm OS with the Visor Prism--33mhz, 16-bit color, expansion--while Sony still had their head up you-know-where with the S300. Over time, you could argue Handspring wiped themselves out of the PDA market--Visor Edge, Neo, etc. Of course, that could've been the strategy all along. HS wanted into the smartphone arena and wanted to reduce their PDAs to, well, one offering.

You could also argue HS abandoned PDAs for smartphones because they couldn't stick with Sony. For the sake of argument, let's make the assumption (which I'm sure is your viewpoint). Did ONE model from Sony "wipe out" Handspring? No. If anything, it was the simple onslaught of MANY new models, with more and more features, that drove HS out of PDAs. Which brings me back to my point: NO ONE MODEL will "wipe out" a company.

As for your iPaq claim, which iPaq "wiped out the $499 Palm?" Would that be the $600, $700, or $800 model? And why does Palm still hold so much more marketshare?

Anyway, ska, thanks for the laugh. I can't wait to see your assertion that the Casio BE-300, which can't be GIVEN away at $149, is a "Palm-killer."

RE: Too thick
ska @ 10/14/2002 10:41:39 PM #
and how much market share does palm hold on $499 6 quarters ago? how about now? at $399 3quarters ago? how about now?

wanna bet that this quarter Palms market share at $399 will be below 2% if they are lucky?

what happen after the $299 machines like viewsonic, E330, or Dell comes out? after $199 Dell?

that's right at every single price bracket there will be only PPC or Sony left. While palm can only sell something at price range where there is no competition. Ie. Sub $199.

Handspring? As if anybody still remember that company in handheld industry by now. It's dead. (or euphemistically called changing product strategy)

RE: Too thick
M3wThr33 @ 10/15/2002 2:15:00 AM #
I still use my Visor Platinum. Best darn grayscale PDA I've my opinion. Besides, the share data won't work anymore since the Treo 180, 270 and 300 don't count for their sales anymore.

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.

What Palm gets right...

SabMary @ 10/14/2002 2:59:54 PM #
is definitely the size. I love the features of my NR70V but at times it can feel a little large. Palm always keeps in mind that the PDA is supposed to fit in your "palm".

This would be perfiect if?>>

gfunkmagic @ 10/14/2002 3:57:48 PM #
I think Has made a relatively good decision on the Tungsten T. It appears to have pretty darn good form factor (even theough the sliding mechanism has yet to evaluated), wireless capability, nice screen, multimedia capbilities, and a decent prcessor. The only thing I dont understand is why Palm doesn't offer a pda with dual SD + CF options? Am I missing something here, but I think a POS PDA with this dual expansion capabiity plus integrated wireless funtionality would be an absolute blockbluster! There has aways been an inherant problem with the single SD port. If you want to attach your SD camera, great but now you can't save any images b/c you don't have enough memory. It the case of the Tungsten T, I believe Palm made the right decision to integrate BT instead of 802.11b b/c of battery issues. However, an additinal CF slot would have openned the option for many who would want add a wifi later on while still being able to add memory storage. I dunno if this this technically problematic, but I seem to recall many other pda's lke the Toshiba e740 for instance that offer such features (however the e740 has integrated wifi). Add to this a virtual graffiti screen, which may be asking to much, and I think this thing could have been perfect...

RE: This would be perfiect if?>>
hotpaw4 @ 10/14/2002 6:43:49 PM #
The right place for 802.11 is in a portable bluetooth-to-wifi bridge with its own battery. Any major power consumer should have its own power source.

Should have had Virtual Graffiti

Zuber @ 10/14/2002 4:23:20 PM #
I know it is old ground. But why on earth Palm didn't just include virtual graffiti is beyond me. Then this would have been the killer PDA and worthy of the being the top end device. It would also have helped justify the price as well.

Still, I guess I will have to contiue contemplating what to buy. I was set on the new Sony except for Bluetooth issues. I have to admit that the PocketPCs are starting to look interesting. Don't like the OS that much (had an IPaq for a year) but the hardware optons look interesting.


RE: Should have had Virtual Graffiti
alexp @ 10/14/2002 10:31:51 PM #
I suspect Palm decided small size was more important than more screen real estate. You could argue that hi-res, since it packs more info on the square screen, is sufficient enough for most people. Hi-res+, while nice, could also be interpreted as overkill. Add to that the additional battery drain of a hi-res+ screen. Palm has always placed a priority on battery life and small size. So they come up with this as a compromise--more screen res, but smaller size, with the old hard graffiti.

Not the best solution for some people, but only time will tell if it works for enough. I would suggest that if the slider functions well, the battery life is good, the extra functionality of OS 5 is solid, and the unit in general performs well, you'd have to be dead set on virtual graffiti to argue that lack of it is a deal-breaker.

RE: Should have had Virtual Graffiti
bcombee @ 10/14/2002 11:59:22 PM #
One issue with virtual graffiti is screen wear. Having a dedicated writing area that isn't used for display means that scratches or wear spots won't be as big of a problem. It also means that the user doesn't have to think about where to go to enter data -- that area's always dedicated to input. Finally, it allows features like DateBook and MemoPad's "new record when you start writing" that can really speed up the user experience.

Virtual graffiti is a nice feature for advanced users, but as shown on Pocket PC, not having an area always dedicated to input can be confusing for new users, can make programs harder to use, and can limit the life of the device.

Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at

RE: Should have had Virtual Graffiti
asiayeah @ 10/15/2002 2:39:05 AM #
I would say the issue of virtual graffiti is the result and beaty of the diverity of Palm OS devices.

Some Palm devices have a dedicated graffiti area while some provides a virtual graffiti area. It allows uses to have more choices and vendors to have differentiations.

RE: Should have had Virtual Graffiti
Roberto_tores @ 10/15/2002 6:39:48 AM #
The problem with virtual grafity is that the OS does not supports it.

If Palm Inc. added VG this would be yet another non standard API and more headache and frustration for developers. Just look at the Handera and Qualcom there is few support for their VG implementation compared to Sony's, if palm inc does a propietary API support for VG would become more sparse as developers choose wich versions to support.

RE: Should have had Virtual Graffiti
Fly-By-Night @ 10/15/2002 6:59:43 AM #
VG is only non-standard in OS 4.x; I am fairly certain that VG support is part of the OS 5 standard APIs; it's up to the hardware manufacturer whether to use it or not.


Tungsten|T and OMAP1510

SpicyDom @ 10/15/2002 6:52:23 AM #
Regarding the OMAP1510, I found some interesting stuff in a White Paper written by the OMAP Applications Manager:
OMAP1510 device key features include:
* 200-MHz, 400 MIPS C55x™ DSP core:
- 192 KB Frame Buffer
- Internal memory: 48-KW SARAM, 32-KW DARAM, 16-KW PDROM
- 12-KB (24-KB) I-cache
* 175-MHz, 210 MIPS TI-enhanced ARM9 processor core:
- 16 KB I-cache
- 8-KB D-cache

The StrongArm 206 MHz is roughly 240 MIPS and no DSP. The StrongArm and specially the XScale are bundled their CPUs with some multimedia capabilities, but nothing that can compete with a DSP, neither in performance nor in battery life.

This article says "a single C55x DSP uses only 40-percent computation capability and half the power as the RISC to process a full-motion videoconference (real time)".

Unlike other Palm handhelds, the Tungsten should be a real Multimedia device.
If the Tungsten|T is using the DSP in multimedia softwares, the performance should be great and the battery life preserved.

There is no OMAP1510 at 144MHz, only the 175Mhz is available (in fact 174MHz but for commercial reason, they say 175MHz).
However it is possible to underclock it at 144MHz. So, either it is a misprint or Palm has underclocked the OMAP1510 for preserving the battery life.

For general purpose, the Tungsten|T processor should have enough raw power.
Moreover, the DSP should bring the multimedia capabilities to the Tungsten|T while the ARM processor remains free for performing other tasks.

Anyway, I also think that it is a shame that Palm does not release a Palm at 400MHz or more, the XScale will run at 600MHz in few months time.

Basically, Intel is betting that general purpose processors, rather than digital signal processors, or DSPs, will be the key component in the future generations of mobile phones and personal digital assistants. The DSP market currently is dominated by Texas Instruments.

What could "save" this handheld (for a processor addict) compare to others is its DSP...if ever used.

RE: Tungsten|T and OMAP1510
ska @ 10/15/2002 7:45:40 AM #
The only problem is, the OS has to perform consistently across all chips or else program will behave differently on different chips. (ie. game will run much faster on DSP, and music will not sync on the non DSP model. )

Fine tuning OS across all chips like that are very difficult. SO far nobody has for sure answer if OS 5.0 support anything beyond the standard ARM V.5 codes on all those chips.

My Slider Theory

robman @ 10/15/2002 11:19:00 AM #
Many people seem concerned that the slider mechanism will reduce the life of the new Tungsten T Palm. But I don't think this is going to be an issue because of how I think the Palm is designed.

I believe that the only part of the Tungsten which moves is a a thin, "C"-shaped plate containing the d-pad and the hardware buttons. I think you can't sync this Palm without "closing it". This means there's almost no hardware in the moving section (just a handful of buttons, which have to be pretty sturdy anyway), and a ribbon cable or a set of contacts running between the main Palm body and the small shell.

So what if it breaks in a year or two? You'd be able to buy a replacement plate for something like $20 bucks USD.

I think the slider is a great idea. I always use my palm either for a quick check (and don't need the graffiti space) or for extended input (and want to be able to write).

Palm Researcher at the University of Texas at Austin

Palm Tungsten

sophie1 @ 10/16/2002 11:03:02 PM #
The Palm Tungsten will be released in Australia on the 29th October,price A$1099 including tax.


Ricky @ 10/17/2002 1:13:56 AM #
How would you go about creating a case for this thing? Although several retailers currently carry both a hard and a soft case in their inventory systems, they have no info on them. Assuming that the cases are the size of the TT closed, would you have to take it out of the case in order to use Graffiti, or does the case somehow expand?



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