Comments on: Rumor: New Details on the Tungsten T3, E and Zire 21

However, that future is A LONG TIME FROM NOW.

I am SO tired of people predicting the downfall of handhelds due to the smartphone market. It will happen, that I don't argue. But it won't happen ANYTIME SOON, because smartphones right now are TOO DARN EXPENSIVE, and that won't change anytime soon.

The other problem is that MOST people don't want a smartphone, unless its going to be FREE or close to FREE, since they can get a cell phone for that price. When smartphones get CLOSE to regular cells, then MAYBE we'll see this turn around. But that's a very long time out. Right now, the manufacturers and carriers just are NOT going to give away smartphones, or make them competitive to the other phones on the market. Until that happens, smartphones WILL NOT KILL HANDHELDS.

Sheesh, folks have been predicting smartphones killing the handheld market for a couple years now. Kinda like predicting that M$ handhelds will kill Palm OS handhelds in the "next year or two". You'd think that by now these folks would be embarrased (for those not employed to provide these predictions) or fired (For those that ARE employed to do so) and yet they don't seem to be.

Too bad.

Not really. According to the following study by eTForecasts, smartphone sales have already significantly affected the sales of pdas. Furthermore, the boom in Symbian smartphone devices is a testament to this fact:

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/3717.html

However, I disagree smartphone will DESTROY the pda industry. The fact is that Pdas will always be around, b/c they fill a particular niche that they are suited for. The reason the PDA market isn't growing is because it has matured, not because of any deficit and functionality. However, the PDA market will never surpass 20 million units worldwide as one fantasized and will maintain the 14-15 million units its averaged the last couple years. The exception to this may be in the advent of certian niches like gaming (Tapwave device etc). Thus, it's not like PDA's are going anywhere. There will always be a market for them, but the fact is that market will be vastly miniscule and eclipsed by the larger smartphone segment. In fact many analysts are already predicting that smartphone sales in 2004 will eclipse the total volume of units of pdas! Other studies have predicted that by 2007 smartphones shipments will represent (at min) nearly 5% of all handsets reaching 45 million/year.

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/3454.html

Thus, sales of smartphones are definitely affecting the PDA industry as that segment stagnates, while in the future the proportion of smartphones of world wide handset sales will continue to rise and eventually become dominant. In fact, it was this realization that was behind Palm's acquisition of Handspring. It totally makes sense for PalmOne to turn its focus on the potential of a possible future 300 million smartphone industry than remain #1 in a stagnating PDA industry of only ~14 million sales. This doesn't mean they will drop Pda's, but it is not where the future profitability of the company lies. The Treo600 will be a critical device in their effort to secure a future in this segment for sure...

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PDAs I also like to be small, but not as small as a phone. The screen has to be big enough to be usable for more complex applications. Also the input area (whether it be stylus or key based) has to be large enough to be comfortable and easy to use.

I know a lot of people think smartphones are great, but for me they demonstrate a major clash of conflicting design needs. A smartphone is usually too big to be a phone and too small to be PDA - as far as I'm concerned anyway.

_________________________
The Phantom Strikes again

There will be some people who want a smartphone to have PDA functionality in the phone they already carry. Something like a Handera 600.

There will be some people who want a PDA with cellular and/or wireless to give them cellphone functionality in the PDA they already carry. Something like a Tungsten C or W, except with stereo.

There will be some people who want entirely separate devices that make no compromises.

There will be many people who feel they only need one device or the other, and will be happy with a cheap mass-market device.

Once the circuitry gets cheap enough, you may be able to throw PDA or cellphone functionality into either device with little penalty in size or cost, but that day is still a ways off.

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

It would be great if we can install Palm OS to those little laptops (like Panasonic T1) now. Current laptop is good but just taking too long to boot up the Win2K and run these applications.

1. i like a small phone, i can take on me without
carrying a relatively big device, when not needed
2. i like gadgets like most people here, and i hate to
change both devices at the same time.
3. i love palm os and there is no device i'd like yet.
4. i love to be independant on my power. ie if the
phone is out of power why shall my pda be....???
5. standby times of smartphones are just unacceptable
for people using the device (phone/pda) heavily.
6. no acceptable handsfree devices for car use yet.

so now i also have to defend the smartphones, as i believe they have their market and am sure some people prefer the integrated devices. i cannot follow the guy who claimed problems in airlines, i, at my times of communicator and treo 180 could always explain and proof that the phone was off.......they did though tell me not to use the smartphone during take-off and landing as all electronic devices should be switched off.

nevertheless i really look forward to the tungsten t3
the bluetooth combo with big memory is what i need, as i hadle my email while travelling with my palm.

currently i use a clie t665c in combo with a bluetooth memostick and an ericsson t68......great except the memory and the bluetooth memostick, which sticks out of the clie...........

just my 5 cents.

enjoy
chris

That said, I think what will eventually happen is that the market for smartphone features will trim down and you will see phones that can communicate with pdas but only for the information that is relevent, ie phone numbers and pictures of the individuals. Although an arguement could be made for apps that deal with the internet, such as downloadable maps, restaurant directions, ect.

However, these phones would be much cheaper and much smaller, because it would not need all the memory, processing power and so forth of the pda. Simply the connectivity and the ability to communicate and share information.

As for the flying, I do that ever week and have a sort of reverse problem. They will let you use your phone on the ground until the door is closed. A couple of airlines now let you use them when taxiing in. But, even though I can use my phone, I cannot use my PDA to look up phone numbers for that phone - until we hit 10,000 feet. Maybe the idea would be a chamelon phone that looks like a PDA in the air and a phone on the ground. That might interest me. hmmmm been yelled at plenty but never had something taken away. You must fly with a mean flight crew.

Dr. Steve Lansing

What percent of PDA owners "type long documents" on their devices? Perhaps less than 1 percent? Small size will be a more important "feature" for Josephine Average and this is why traditional PDAs are on their last legs. Not many people will carry a seperate PDA if their phone can do most of the same jobs.

Handspring's mistakes with previous Treos have now given Symbian the window of opportunity needed to butcher Palm's carcass. (subtle hyperbole)

Hehe, yeah I do the bulk of my flying in SE Asia and Asia proper and some of those flight crews don't understand customer service correctly and some are so nice it'll make you blush. As for the number lookup problem the solution is simple: bluetooth. What I mean by that is palm and phone sync, though bluetooth is the best as you can update your phone with ur updated palm contacts on the fly, so to speak (before the airplane doors close).

I agree with the posters who complain about battery life as that is a big problem. Especially on those 16 hour flights. I gotta say now that I am back to two devices I like it. My problem is that I have to wear a suit often and hauling around two devices over one is bulky without a bag but the Clie is so slim I can't really complain.

I think I need a serious mobile device overhaul. This T3 looks to fit the bill now does anyone have any suggestions on a mobile phone? I am currently using an Ericsson T39m (actually is an old one I took out of retirement after dumping the P800). Great device but I would like one of those color phones with a camera (and bluethooth of course).

Has anyone noticed that PDA's are advancing in ways that smartphones cannot possibly cover, like widescreen displays and almost desktop functionality? Everyone is screaming for 480 x 320, or 640 x 480, hard drives, etc...Lots of people will do their basic PIM on a smartphone, but there will always be handhelds, just like there will always be notebook computers, etc...

Also, the Zire 21 with OS 5 sounds interesting, but what is the advantag of OS 5 over OS 4 on a low-res B&W display with no wireless or multimedia capability?

Seriously, Palm has got the marketing right on the low end Zire. My wife uses my old Vx and saw a Zire at a store one day and fell in love with it. Never mind that her Vx is better in every way except weight & OS version. She was magnetized by that "Mary Kay" image.

The Sony SJ20 has recently been dropped to $99 and is light years ahead of the Zire from a technical standpoint. Surely Palm will dump the 160x160 dark age resolution and/or give SD expansion and/or color screen and/or shrink the device to the smallest one of all time.

Sony won't have the marketing saavy, but their side by side product will visually blow the Z21 away at the sub-$100 price point. IMO, and I'm a Palm guy.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Why not multimedia? You don't need hires and color to play mp3s. Now, the cheapest PDA on the market can play mp3s. This is great. Palm is certainly on a roll with the T3, Z71, Z21, and T|e. They are all excellent PDAs.

1) decent sound (i.e. MP3 capability)
2) a thin form factor
3) a universal connector
4) decent battery life

If it has all four, I'm sold.

Basically a T2 with a thumboard slider. I'd pay $300 for that.

Lower power and much higher performance for applications which have had their compute bound sections recompiled into native (pno)armlets.

The speed difference can be quite drastic between the OMAP and the DragonBall. For example, compressing a very large ebook with Wordsmith on an M515 took almost 20 minutes. It's a lot of processing, but still, that's a pretty long wait. The exact same book on the T|T takes 18 *seconds*.

WOW, I was thinking of displaying JPEGs, but now that you mention it, I do sometimes wait until my Clie NR is in the cradle and just let it compress a 1 meg book for 20 minutes. 18 seconds? I could do that while getting my pajamas on to read the book at bedtime.

But, I REALLY NEED virtual graffiti for FITALY virtual. That means a T3, but I am not interested in paying $400 for hardware that is roughly equivalent to what Dell will be selling for half that by the time the T3 arrives.

What a messy market. What I really want is....well, we have all said it a million times and Sony is not making a TG50 with VG for $250.

It WILL be mp3 capable, they can't afford not to offer that since it would seriously cripple the sales.

Can you imagine the two-fold backwards compatability problems Joe 6-Packs are going to have with this new Zire--*every* OS5-enhanced program to date has assumed that a 5-way navigator or a Sony jog dial will be present. If this Z21 mimicks the original Zire that closely, the same 4-button layout will prevail. Also, most OS5-specific titles also assume a minimum fixed screen resolution of 320*320...with this new Zire and the upcoming Treo also at 160*160 (albeit in color) I think we can expect some developer headaches and a lot of folks keeping their fingers crossed for updates to existing apps/games.

In short, my personal summary of the new units:

T3: Great concept that has taken way too long to appear. I'm personally a slider fan but I'd still prefer a long & think m515 tablet style unit with VG. I do not care at all for the new "organic" button layout. I'll stick with my T2 for a while longer. Right now, Palm had better make sure the build quality is rock solid and all the lingering bugs are squashed before this puppy ships.

T|E: Wow, I have to admit I am very surprised about how much Palm is packing into a $200 unit. The *only* possible caveat I could think of at this time would be screen quality (will it be a T or a T2 type screen?), mp3 volume, and build quality. Since I have (and many PIC faithful) have *zero* use for BT at this time, the E would be a perfect unit. But why oh why did Palm not see fit to include the UC instead of the mini USB port? That just reeks of cheapness. If nothing else, the UC should be a de facto standard on all Tungsten handhelds (yes, yes, I know that Tungsten does not necessarily equal high-end handhelds but you'd think standardization of expansion would be the goal of units targeted at corporations or enterprise users). Still, the E has the potential to be the best bang for the buck Palm *EVER*!

Z21: Well, I never did care for the original Zire and it looks like I still won't care for this one. If this one is still non-backlit and adhering to the same (lack of) buttons as the original Zire I'll eat my socks. The inclusion of the faster CPU and OS 5 is _very_ puzzling to me...I thought Palm announced last fall that we'd still see OS 4.x units for the forseeable future? I'd rather see Palm introduce a very sleek OS 4.x handheld at this price point, fitted with a nice backlit screen (like m500) and a decent button layout-perhaps even a T|T style D-pad to keep all the kids happy? I was also hoping the mini USB cable silliness was a temporary solution just for the Zire...now it looks like it's spreading to the Tungsten line as well. Still, this will sell loads of units-it's not nearly as severely crippled /obsolete in '03 at $99 as the Zire was in '02 at the same price point.

Hahaha. That's why it's so cheap! Just a basic PDA with a kick ass screen. Exactly what I want, and it's not an SJ22.

Not really. Lets say an app supported OS4 low res and OS5 hidensity. POS will automatically use the low res bitmaps, while still keeping OS5 enhancements. And if the app was devided into to different prc files (one to support OS4 low res and one for OS5 hidensity) it would take twenty minutes to copy and paste lowres bitmaps into the OS5 prc.

Will the Z21 have a SDIO slot?! It would be a terrific mistake if it doesn't IMO...

Visit http://goodthatway.com/
-better living through better technology.

It's never enough for you guys..... Jeez........

It's never enough for you guys..... Jeez........"

LOL! Hey, its freaking 4 am eastern time and we're reading PIC for goodness sakes!! Hell yeah, we're never satisfied!!

Btw, I agree about the backlight. A SD slot would be pretty nice too...

Visit http://goodthatway.com/
-better living through better technology.

Huh, there was not a word about jog-dial or a device with that idea. And I don't like these hard buttons in the bottom, gimme normal layout! It's freakin bad :(. Rumored TT3 plus Dial device but minus uncomfortable as they look hard buttons equals my dream PDA.

You are pretty naive if you think that those "99 BUCKS" are driven by the hardware costs. For the same money, you get a complete 1.3Mpixel digital camera, complete with color TFT and SD slot.

Across the entire Palm line, the device is probably sold for many times its actual hardware cost. You are paying for software and compatibility with these devices. And leaving out features like an SD slot isn't driven by hardware costs, it's driven by trying to segment the market.

PIC needs a message editor :)

How many replacement m505s?
How many replacement cradles?
How many returned m130s? And simply because Palm coudn't "fess up" about the display until it cost money to fix?

It's great track record. And one you will continue to help pay for.

Actually, that's at least a $40 difference at retail. Don't forget that PalmOne, the distributor (if any) and the retailer all need to make a profit on that additional $20.

mike d

That's the million dollar question, IMO. If it does, we could be looking at a very appealing convergent basic PDA/MP3 player. I say bundle it with some cheap headphones and market it as an MP3 player.

Scott

http://goodthatway.com
- featuring PDA/smartphone news and FREE MONEY!!! -

Don't forget about that the battery that would be needed to keep the screen going. Palm is probably keeping the monochrome screen to maintain battery life for all those college-aged non-techie palm toters who don't know what a (old school) palm pilot can do.

________________________________________
If you feel like you're under control, you're just not going fast enough.

It's actually worse than that. You can possibly get the low-end, passive matrix, 12-bit color screens for ~$25 each, but a good active matrix screen will cost more. A m515 caliber screen likely costs $40-$50 each, wholesale, in quantity.

If Palm can get a color screen on a <$100 PDA, that would be great (any screen quality). I don't really see it as worth their while to hit th $150 price point (like Dell's soon to be released X3). Anything over $100 isn't an impulse buy anymore, so a $200 TE should be close/good enough.

The non-discounted retail price point for multi-media handhelds with color displays, card slots and stereo audio is going down to around $200 to $300, but not to $99 (Yet!).

So while I am all for Palm to turn a buck, I think going non-color with this one is a mistake.

Yep, you can also get a Gameboy Advance, color phone, or a handheld color TV for that $99. There is even a new PDA for schoolkids with color and higher resolution, the iSprout, for $99. If they can do it, Palm can do it. The Royal Linea has a $99 model that has 32 meg of RAM, a higher res screen than the mono Zires and a backlight. Palm should be making a ton of profit on these low end Zires. But, with the PPCs gaining ground on Palm, they should be offering far more competitive models than they are. The only model they currently sell that is competive is the Zire 71.

Was a bad edit of the original post. I did not mean that to say that mj6798 was pretty naive!

I should have quoted it as:

RE: Zire 21 has a problem
mj6798 wrote: "You are pretty."

or something else!

I have gotten pretty good descriptions of them all between the three sites I keep visiting. It will be interesting to see what I have marked on my spreadsheet from the different rumors matches up when the models actually come out.
- Erica

I'd really be tempted to get a Tungsten C, but it's expensive and bigger than I'd like, and I have absolutely no use for the Wi-fi.

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

1. I want to connect to the internet for email without being FORCED to use AT&T (I'm referring to the Tungsten W).

Solution: get a Bluetooth Palm like the Tungsten T so I can hook up to my choice of cellphone and service wirelessly. No, a cable is NOT acceptable. I do NOT want to use up my precious SD slot to hook up to my phone either. I need the VFS memory in the SD memory card to download attachments. The Bluetooth must be built-in.

2. I want to be able to send and reply to email messages without getting carpel tunnel from graffiti (I'm referring to the Tungsten T of course).
Solution: get a keyboard Palm, like the Tungsten C or W.

3. I want PalmOS 5. My Tungsten W is starting to feel pokey.

So....why is the Tungsten E not a Bluetooth version of the Tungsten C? Am I niche market to want connectivity, speed, and decent text input? No keyboard and no bluetooth? Nuts...

-------
James Sorenson

I can't see a company equiping its road warriors with a non bluetooth device. Considering how hard it is these days to buy a non-bluetooth business phone.

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

All in all, it sounds like a wonderful device and the answer to my prayers. I just wish we knew what kind of display it had.

--
Mitch

The Sony SL10 is set up that way and it seems to work quite well.

"Transflective 320x320 screen, 32m RAM Mp3's in a very similar to m5xx body. But no BT at $199."

The problem is, what's there to prevent your competition from including those features you are "saving" for the next release? Answer: nothing, and when they realise it, they'll gladly put you out of business.

This kind of thinking nearly did in the US auto makers back in the 70's.

Jon Acheson

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

Scott

http://goodthatway.com
- featuring PDA/smartphone news and FREE MONEY!!! -

Manufacturing scale and profitability.

It takes awhile before anybody can include new feature in volume and still make money, especially after taking into account R&D, sales and marketing costs.

Any time you buy the latest PDA, PC, car, TV, whatever, remember it's already obsolete. The R&D labs are already are building stuff that's at least 2 or 3 generations ahead. (2 GHz G5's and 3 GHz P4's? Bah... both IBM and Intel have circuits in the labs that run *well* over 10 GHz. Why buy a pokey slow 2-3 GHz machine when you can just wait a few more years for something fast?)

Remember, the original Zire, m130, m515 and (I presume) i705 will all be sent to the "Hall of Fame" upon the release of these three new units so it makes sense to keep the Z71 around as long as possible...I think that the soccer moms comprise the majority of the Zire's target audience wouldn't care too much about having 16mb ram instead of 32mb.

I know that the Palm OS is a thousand times better than pocket PC but most people only care about form factor. Thats why the Palm V, Vx was so successful. Palm should not forget that.

Personally, I *like* the slider. I chose to buy a T and a T2. I intend to get the T3.

I have also owned a V, Vx, M500, M505, and an M515. I currently own a Tungsten C in addition to the T2. Each model has pros and cons, but essentially I like them all (OK, the M505 was a bit naff). The V series was certainly a classic design but, with the right software such as SlideFree, the T2 has become my favourite Palm yet. My only quibble is that Palm hasn't bundled such software with the T series, but I'm happy to support 3rd party developers by buying their products.

Slider or otherwise, there is NO way I'd switch to an Axim in particular or PPC in general.

I much prefer the VG TT form factor to the HP. It's a tiny bit thicker but much smaller and more pocketable when closed.

Thanks, robrecht

LOL!! What a miserable existance.

This is one of the best signatures I've seen!

As to "rumors" etc. WHEN these are in the stores, I'll go and play with them. The REALITY is that very often in the stores these units are USELESS --

not charged
or "nailed" behind the counter or to the display where one can't hold them FOR REAL! to get a real feel!

I wish Palm had a better retail presence, ala Apple Stores, where it IS being sold, except the latest model I've seen there was TT, not even T2. It took a lot of nagging before they unhooked TT and connected it to Apple's 17' Laptop, so I could see how well TT played with Palm Desktop vs. Entourage, which reminds me -- I'LL NEVER BUY SONY Palm PDA's until they are FULLY Mac compatible. Yes I know about Missing Link Conduit, but with Sony, what's missing is a RESPECT for Mac OS community! Hope they Think Different ? soon. And not to dump on Sony, I hope they show us, Mac folks, more love too:) But, still, Palm should have a MUCH MUCH BETTER retail presence!

All those units nailed, chained, under display in Staples and such -- THAT'S PATHETIC!!! To me as a shareholder(OUCH!!!!) this is particularly sad. I've pointed that out to Palm countless times, and all I got were Thank You Auto Replies! Palm should GIVE AWAY demo CD's, or and Play those Video CD's in stores where all the features etc could be demonstrated in depth or quickly. Otherwise, they are just hoping that some of us buy their PDA's, and assume the "missionary position"(pun intended)... by preaching Palm OS onto the rest of the world by demonstrating our units, and donating our time, while Palm Inc, Palmone are trying to seduce the BIG CLIENTS, the corporations into bulk buying! Can you hear me now... Palm(PALM)!!!!

The sad thing is that my IIIx is still just FINE, but because I don't have USB connector for it, I won't be able to connect it to my Apple Laptop which I am about to buy. The USB Cradles are too expensive for my IIIx, plus OS3.3 on it might not play nice with PD 4.1 or Entourage. So I'll hand my IIIx down to a friend with older Mac w/Serial Port, and let her discover the Joy of Palm. Then, when she gets her own Mac Laptop, I'll keep my IIIx as a backup and SENTIMENTAL item. Hey, it's still fine after 4 years + 1 month of me beating it up.

As to UC or other connectors, THAT is such a RIP OFF when they keep changing it, forcing people into extra expenses. If the newer models do more, don't cost MUCH more, people would upgrade.

On my WISH LIST --
Norton like Utility which could fix things on Palm thus preventing corruption
BT talking to a cell phone. I am on Verizon and they don't have BT phones or at least choice of them. Smartphones are getting better, but are not there yet.

With BT + Cell, my Palm will check email every 10 minutes, and it would come off my Monthly Minutes, i.e. NO SEPARATE PLANS for email. And if my Palm was to "talk" to BT phone, I'd like to be able to Save Call Logs INDEFINITELY, i.e. archive them to Desktop as part of Palm Desktop, or Entourage, or Standalone Mac + Windows Application!

Drag and Drop Photos from Desktop to Install on Palm, so that it would be my Portable Photoalbum.

MP3? Why, when one can have iPod with TONS of music one it, plus space for backing up other non music files to it? Unless they can make Palm compatible with iTunes!

Other than that, replaceable Rechargeable Batteries would be nice! And FINALLY!!!

PLEASE -- END THE 15 CATEGORIES LIMIT ALREADY!!!!!!!

There are Memorizable Views on my Mac Palm Desktop, let THOSE Views(Unlimited ## of them) Transfer via Hot Sync to Palm PDA.

These are the things I hope Palm Software folks can give us in our lifetime, instead ambushing us with low blows like -- new connectors etc.

If 15 Categories were done away with a year or two ago, I would have upgraded my IIIx.

Sorry about such a long Post folks. It's just that I feel that Palm would be better off taking care of BASICS -- 15 CATEGORIES, BETTER RETAIL PRESENCE etc! Then they can start getting a bit more geeky, finicky and etc.

Can you hear me Palm?! :)

FM/AM receiver PLEASE!!! This way, when the next Blackout comes, we'll know what's going on!:):)

BTW, PalmInfocenter ROCKS!!!!

My IIIx is still working since 7/99!!! I use Panasonic Rechargable Batteries, swapping them back and forth with a pair inside Panasonic portable CD Player where they get recharged! NO MORE 15 CATEGORIES PLEASE!!!

Multi Language Support could be nice too! Hey, people around the world should see the full glory of Palm in their own languages!

Voice Recorder should be STANDARD on ALL Palms, a couple of hours would be nice!:) Backup ALL DATA, not just Palm's stuff -- STANDARD to SD on ALL PALMS!

THE UNIT SHOULD BEEP when half hour of Use Time is reached. That time warning shoudl be User Definable!

Battery Meter -- in hours of use with MAX BRIGHTNESS and LOUDEST SPEAKER VOLUME ASSUMED! This way the real reserve would exceed the expectations!

Auto Digitizer, or at least reminder to Digitize!

Docs To Go , and EVERYTHING ELSE -- FULL MAC OS SUPPORT!!! Hey we are people too:):):)!!!

Flip Covers for Screens(non scratch surface PLEASE!!!)

THE VIBRATE ALERT(no sound)

should wake up the dead!!! ... even if the PDA is in a belt pouch, i.e. doesn't have a direct contact with a body!

Alarms Sounds?

One should be able to record their own Alarms from ANY Audio Source

------------------
My IIIx is still working since 7/99!!! I use Panasonic Rechargable Batteries, swapping them back and forth with a pair inside Panasonic portable CD Player where they get recharged! NO MORE 15 CATEGORIES PLEASE!!!

I personnaly am much more bothered by the 4kb memo limit

Here is the example of how 15 Categories is UNBEARABLE!!! I am a musician, and need to be able to group-isolate by instrument, or "doubling", i.e. drummer who sings is an example of a "doubler"(an official, common practice term in music industry). If I need a drummer, then its All Drummers List, but what if I need a SINGING DRUMMER, Drums MV(singing drummer), then I'd like another List(Memorized View), Category, etc.

17 BASIC CATERGORIES

Bass
Cello
Customer
Drums
Emergency
Employer Type 1
Employer Type 2
Guitar
Harp
Female Singer
Male Singer
Piano
Sax
Student
Trumpet
Trombone
Violin

4 "DOUBLERS" CATEGORIES EXAMPLE
Bass MV(singing Bass)
Drums MV(singing Drums)
Guitar MV(singing Guitarist)
Piano MV(singing Keyboardist)

I'd like to have much more than 15 "Basic" Categories, or 4 Doubler Categories. Let's face it, there is more to life than those Categories, even if one is a musician:):):) RIGHT?

My highly UNPLEASANT workaround vs. this HORRIBLE 15 Categories Limit is --

On Desktop, I ALWAYS replicate Category Name in Title Field. That's my version of Backup for Category Field, which is HIGHLY UNSTABLE, i.e. it change on PDA if one starts adding, deleting, renaming categories

For Doublers, if it's a singer, I add MV or FM(male/female vocalist) after their main instrument(bass, guitar)

If a Bass player(electric) also plays Accoustic Bass(AKA Upright, Contrabass), I can add "Accoustic" and so on.

Then, with Filters(on Desktop) I create Memorized Views. THOSE VIEWS(my Substitution to Categories) I'd like to be able to Transfer to PDA.

So, call I don't care what it's called -- Categories-Classes-Groups-Lists, I need to be able to isolate people within those Categories-Classes-Groups-Lists. I.e. -- fine lets call them all MUSICIANS = 1 Category name, BUT I'd like the UNLIMITED # of Memorized Lists that I can Sync back and forth between Desktop and PDA. Thus far, thanks to Datebk4 by Pimlico, I can Filter and Memorize Lists of Contacts, but pulling those lists is S L O W, at least on my IIIx, unlike on my Palm Desktop, where it's INSTANT!

AGAIN, I don't want to get bogged down in the wording here -- I don't care what it's called -- Categories-Classes-Groups-Lists, I need to be able to isolate people within those

Palm Desktop kind of hints at this by allowing a Contact to have 2nd Category, which doesn't Sync to PDA. Only 4 Phone ## per Contact are possible, and only 1 email. BUT a lot of folks have more than 4 phone ##, and more than 4 emails:)

And don't even get me started on the possible Names-Types-Categories-Classes-Groups-Lists-Kinds of Memos(Notes) or Appointments, or Tasks(To Do's)

I'd like to be able to View all of those as LIST!!!! INSTANTLY.

Call it LISTS, CALL IT CATEGORIES, CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT, BUT JUST PLEASE GIVE ME MORE THAN 15 OF THOSE, and let them all Sync to and from Desktop!

As to 4K per Memo, that's BAD TOO! At least if that's so, on PDA, a 2nd Memo should be created AUTOMATICALLY, with IDENTICAL Title, and ".2" or ".02" to avoid Truncation. But better yet, do away with 4K Limit, and while at it, make those Memos Formatable, ala Wordsmith!!!

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My IIIx is still working since 7/99!!! I use Panasonic Rechargable Batteries, swapping them back and forth with a pair inside Panasonic portable CD Player where they get recharged! NO MORE 15 CATEGORIES PLEASE!!!

I know that I personally have invested several hundred dollars' worth of UC peripherals (keyboard, 2nd cradle, Supplynet cable, modem sled, travel charger, auto charger) intending to use them from my m505 onwards for at least a couple of years.

I'm *still* waiting for Palm to get it (mostly) right for a single model. I hate to say it but the m515 came closest, delivering everything it promised to do and not having any major shortcomings (aside from a non backlit Graffiti area). The T|T2 comes a close 2nd but the audio problems and G2 really irk me. Now the T|E looks like it'll come really, really close but for me personally, it's a no-go, due to my major investment in UC peripherals and lack of a BT cellphone/provider.

SJW: The memory will be a moot point unless you plan on getting the original T|T which had 16Mb (14Mb available) RAM. The current model is the T|T2 with 32Mb, and the upcoming T|T3 has 64Mb. The only T|T with the reflective screen is the original. It is very clear and the best for outdoors, but not as bright and clear indoors as the T|E, T|T2, or T|T3. The slider? Depends on your preferences... some hate them, some think they're ok, others love them. I'm a hardcore user who gives about a week worth of use and abuse everyday to an original T|T. The slider has always performed flawlessly. And for those who think it's such a horrible invention: learn how to use the nav pad already!

A device which fills my hand and has great buttons, folds down to fit in my shirt pocket... and I can button the pocket. Could not do that with the 515.

Stop teasing us, now. Where was the T3?

I'm not a smartass in real life, I just portray one on the web.

I was just there and they had the Z21, I snapped some shots of it with my Z71 if anyone wants to see it.

No MP3 capabilities that I saw. No headphone jack.

I can put these on the PIC if someone tells me how.