Rumor: New Details on the Tungsten T3, E and Zire 21

Over the past two months information has begun to surface on three possible new handhelds coming soon from Palm Inc. The new information confirms some previous reports and reveals additional specs.

UPDATE - Oct 1: As expected, Palm released three new handhelds today. Check the article for details and reviews.

Tungsten E
The Tungsten E will have a TI 144MHz OMAP processor, 32MB of RAM and run Palm OS 5.2. It is said to have a sleek metal finish, and looks like a cross between the m515 and Zire 71. It will come bundled with Versamail 2.6 and Docs-to-Go 6.0. Docs-toGo version 6.0 may include support for native Microsoft Office files.

The device is said to have a dedicated hard Graffiti area, and not a thumboard. It will not come with a cradle. The handheld will have separate power and mini USB cable connections for syncing, similar to the original Zire. It may retail for $199 USD.

Zire 21
The Zire 21 is a possible replacement or update to the popular original Zire handheld. The Zire was introduced in October of 2002 at $99. The entry level device has been one of the fastest selling handhelds in Palm's history.

The new information claims the Zire 21 uses a TI-OMAP processor, 8 MB or RAM and runs OS 5.2.1. The screen is 160x160 pixel monochrome display. The handheld has the same casing as current Zire. Like the first Zire it will cost $99.

Tungsten T3
The final rumored model for the fall lineup is the Tungsten T3. The T3 appears to have a similar form factor and Tungsten T slider design. The handheld will run a 400mhz Xscale processor, includes 64MB of RAM and built in Bluetooth wireless.

Rumor Tungsten T3The main feature of the Tungsten T3 is a large 320x480 pixel high res+ screen. The screen has portrait/landsape rotation and a software provision for lefthanders when viewing landscape ie. rotate left or right from portrait.

According to the rumor the device is the same size and weight to current Tungsten T's. It also has a new hard key button layout, and the keys can be locked to prevent turning on. The new handheld may retail for $399.

The new handhelds are expected to be announced on October 1st. This would agree with previous information from a large electronic retailers inventory database.

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NikMan @ 9/2/2003 2:10:33 AM #
I hope they will make some 515 form handled.
But I think there is no bright future for handleds, smartphones will repleace them and i am waiting some great phones from Palmone!

RE: Great,
PDA Guy @ 9/2/2003 3:33:32 AM #
You're right. The future is smartphones.

However, that future is A LONG TIME FROM NOW.

I am SO tired of people predicting the downfall of handhelds due to the smartphone market. It will happen, that I don't argue. But it won't happen ANYTIME SOON, because smartphones right now are TOO DARN EXPENSIVE, and that won't change anytime soon.

The other problem is that MOST people don't want a smartphone, unless its going to be FREE or close to FREE, since they can get a cell phone for that price. When smartphones get CLOSE to regular cells, then MAYBE we'll see this turn around. But that's a very long time out. Right now, the manufacturers and carriers just are NOT going to give away smartphones, or make them competitive to the other phones on the market. Until that happens, smartphones WILL NOT KILL HANDHELDS.

Sheesh, folks have been predicting smartphones killing the handheld market for a couple years now. Kinda like predicting that M$ handhelds will kill Palm OS handhelds in the "next year or two". You'd think that by now these folks would be embarrased (for those not employed to provide these predictions) or fired (For those that ARE employed to do so) and yet they don't seem to be.

Too bad.

RE: Great,
gfunkmagic @ 9/2/2003 3:46:38 AM #
Quote: "However, that future is A LONG TIME FROM NOW."

Not really. According to the following study by eTForecasts, smartphone sales have already significantly affected the sales of pdas. Furthermore, the boom in Symbian smartphone devices is a testament to this fact:

However, I disagree smartphone will DESTROY the pda industry. The fact is that Pdas will always be around, b/c they fill a particular niche that they are suited for. The reason the PDA market isn't growing is because it has matured, not because of any deficit and functionality. However, the PDA market will never surpass 20 million units worldwide as one fantasized and will maintain the 14-15 million units its averaged the last couple years. The exception to this may be in the advent of certian niches like gaming (Tapwave device etc). Thus, it's not like PDA's are going anywhere. There will always be a market for them, but the fact is that market will be vastly miniscule and eclipsed by the larger smartphone segment. In fact many analysts are already predicting that smartphone sales in 2004 will eclipse the total volume of units of pdas! Other studies have predicted that by 2007 smartphones shipments will represent (at min) nearly 5% of all handsets reaching 45 million/year.

Thus, sales of smartphones are definitely affecting the PDA industry as that segment stagnates, while in the future the proportion of smartphones of world wide handset sales will continue to rise and eventually become dominant. In fact, it was this realization that was behind Palm's acquisition of Handspring. It totally makes sense for PalmOne to turn its focus on the potential of a possible future 300 million smartphone industry than remain #1 in a stagnating PDA industry of only ~14 million sales. This doesn't mean they will drop Pda's, but it is not where the future profitability of the company lies. The Treo600 will be a critical device in their effort to secure a future in this segment for sure...

-better living through better technology.

RE: Great,
Gar @ 9/2/2003 6:05:26 AM #
What could completely throw all this would be the introduction of that killer app that a particular industry 'needs'. One app that all banks need to have access to all the time and the handheld sales go out the roof.
Smartphones are one 'killer' app... in a sort of hardware software angle that has pushed sales up for those units. But they are not for everyone. A lot of folks want a connected all the time device but don't want the two (cell and handheld) to merge thus there will always be that part of the market for the hardware manufactures to feed.
RE: Great,
The Phantom @ 9/2/2003 8:47:46 AM #
I personally see PDAs and phones as two seperate entities. I like my phone to be small, with a simple phone style keypad. This means that any display has to be small too, and hence fairly simple in order to be legible.

PDAs I also like to be small, but not as small as a phone. The screen has to be big enough to be usable for more complex applications. Also the input area (whether it be stylus or key based) has to be large enough to be comfortable and easy to use.

I know a lot of people think smartphones are great, but for me they demonstrate a major clash of conflicting design needs. A smartphone is usually too big to be a phone and too small to be PDA - as far as I'm concerned anyway.

The Phantom Strikes again

RE: Great,
JonAcheson @ 9/2/2003 10:43:19 AM #
No, I don't think smartphones will kill handhelds.

There will be some people who want a smartphone to have PDA functionality in the phone they already carry. Something like a Handera 600.

There will be some people who want a PDA with cellular and/or wireless to give them cellphone functionality in the PDA they already carry. Something like a Tungsten C or W, except with stereo.

There will be some people who want entirely separate devices that make no compromises.

There will be many people who feel they only need one device or the other, and will be happy with a cheap mass-market device.

Once the circuitry gets cheap enough, you may be able to throw PDA or cellphone functionality into either device with little penalty in size or cost, but that day is still a ways off.

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

RE: Great,
digilaw @ 9/2/2003 11:14:56 AM #
I would like to know how much of the pda buying market flys at least once every 3 months. Because if that percentage is high then smartphones will NEVER take off. Why? Because they will not let you use your smartphone on the plane, which is ridiculous when the radio component is turned off. I had to ebay my p800 and get a regular clie TG-50 after only 3 months. I loved the P800 but I do 100% of my personal reading on my PDA and I fly constantly and on several different airlines and not one let me use my P800 on board. I would sneak it out for a hour or 2 on the trans pacific flights but then they would come and yell at me. I even had it confiscated twice. That is so much of a hassle/embarassment that I will NEVER get a smartphone again.

RE: Great,
Altema @ 9/2/2003 12:52:09 PM #
I don't fly much, but still prefer my phone to be a phone. Integrating my pager services into the phone would be fine, but smartphone PDA/phone combos just don't fit my lifestyle. Guess I don't like a high priority PDA integrated with a low priority phone... I keep the Palm with me always, the phone I can take it or leave it depending on the situation.

RE: Great,
batmon @ 9/2/2003 1:35:14 PM #
It's a bit off the topic but I would like to see PDA move towards to laptop terminal types. I believe PDA is a great gadget for barcode scanning in stores, restaurant orders, car repairs, servers & routers terminal console, etc. I don't think ppl wanna use smartphone for these.

It would be great if we can install Palm OS to those little laptops (like Panasonic T1) now. Current laptop is good but just taking too long to boot up the Win2K and run these applications.

RE: Great,
palmadict @ 9/3/2003 12:19:51 PM #
hey guys
i cant believe that smartphones will kill pda's, at least not soon. and i tried both (communicator+treo) and i'm back for several reasons:

1. i like a small phone, i can take on me without
carrying a relatively big device, when not needed
2. i like gadgets like most people here, and i hate to
change both devices at the same time.
3. i love palm os and there is no device i'd like yet.
4. i love to be independant on my power. ie if the
phone is out of power why shall my pda be....???
5. standby times of smartphones are just unacceptable
for people using the device (phone/pda) heavily.
6. no acceptable handsfree devices for car use yet.

so now i also have to defend the smartphones, as i believe they have their market and am sure some people prefer the integrated devices. i cannot follow the guy who claimed problems in airlines, i, at my times of communicator and treo 180 could always explain and proof that the phone was off.......they did though tell me not to use the smartphone during take-off and landing as all electronic devices should be switched off.

nevertheless i really look forward to the tungsten t3
the bluetooth combo with big memory is what i need, as i hadle my email while travelling with my palm.

currently i use a clie t665c in combo with a bluetooth memostick and an ericsson t68......great except the memory and the bluetooth memostick, which sticks out of the clie...........

just my 5 cents.


RE: Great,
Marc333 @ 9/3/2003 5:51:02 PM #
In the same fashion as the person above me, I agree that Smartphones will probably not replace pdas. My simple analogy is that I can never see me trying to type long documents on my phone. The screen's too small and its just a different device.

That said, I think what will eventually happen is that the market for smartphone features will trim down and you will see phones that can communicate with pdas but only for the information that is relevent, ie phone numbers and pictures of the individuals. Although an arguement could be made for apps that deal with the internet, such as downloadable maps, restaurant directions, ect.

However, these phones would be much cheaper and much smaller, because it would not need all the memory, processing power and so forth of the pda. Simply the connectivity and the ability to communicate and share information.

RE: Great,
speak2u @ 9/4/2003 12:29:27 AM #
I love tech toys and look forward to the future of even better stuff, but for some of us the all in one is not the way to go. For example short of using a earbud, how do you read an ebook when on the phone on hold? What about the storage capacity and the looks when you pull your "phone" out in the wrong setting (where a PDA would have been ok).

As for the flying, I do that ever week and have a sort of reverse problem. They will let you use your phone on the ground until the door is closed. A couple of airlines now let you use them when taxiing in. But, even though I can use my phone, I cannot use my PDA to look up phone numbers for that phone - until we hit 10,000 feet. Maybe the idea would be a chamelon phone that looks like a PDA in the air and a phone on the ground. That might interest me. hmmmm been yelled at plenty but never had something taken away. You must fly with a mean flight crew.

Dr. Steve Lansing

Traditional PDAs are DEAD. Deal with it.
The Ugly Truth @ 9/4/2003 3:13:21 AM #
In the same fashion as the person above me, I agree that Smartphones will probably not replace pdas. My simple analogy is that I can never see me trying to type long documents on my phone. The screen's too small and its just a different device.

What percent of PDA owners "type long documents" on their devices? Perhaps less than 1 percent? Small size will be a more important "feature" for Josephine Average and this is why traditional PDAs are on their last legs. Not many people will carry a seperate PDA if their phone can do most of the same jobs.

Handspring's mistakes with previous Treos have now given Symbian the window of opportunity needed to butcher Palm's carcass. (subtle hyperbole)

RE: Great,
digilaw @ 9/4/2003 3:22:17 PM #
>You must fly with a mean flight crew.

Hehe, yeah I do the bulk of my flying in SE Asia and Asia proper and some of those flight crews don't understand customer service correctly and some are so nice it'll make you blush. As for the number lookup problem the solution is simple: bluetooth. What I mean by that is palm and phone sync, though bluetooth is the best as you can update your phone with ur updated palm contacts on the fly, so to speak (before the airplane doors close).

I agree with the posters who complain about battery life as that is a big problem. Especially on those 16 hour flights. I gotta say now that I am back to two devices I like it. My problem is that I have to wear a suit often and hauling around two devices over one is bulky without a bag but the Clie is so slim I can't really complain.

I think I need a serious mobile device overhaul. This T3 looks to fit the bill now does anyone have any suggestions on a mobile phone? I am currently using an Ericsson T39m (actually is an old one I took out of retirement after dumping the P800). Great device but I would like one of those color phones with a camera (and bluethooth of course).

RE: Great,
Palmary @ 9/5/2003 12:21:46 AM #
Hello digilaw. I currently use the Nokia 6210i and like it a lot, but on Monday I am switching to the Sony-Ericsson T610. It has colour, bluetooth, camera. Pretty small too but has good keys.

RE: Great,
digilaw @ 9/5/2003 12:51:46 AM #
Thanks! I'll look into that ericsson.

madmaxmedia @ 9/29/2003 5:04:24 PM #
It's only a matter of time before SMARTPHONES replace PDA's, ultralight notebooks, full-sized notebooks, desktop computers, servers, and even televisions and toasters!!!!

Has anyone noticed that PDA's are advancing in ways that smartphones cannot possibly cover, like widescreen displays and almost desktop functionality? Everyone is screaming for 480 x 320, or 640 x 480, hard drives, etc...Lots of people will do their basic PIM on a smartphone, but there will always be handhelds, just like there will always be notebook computers, etc...

Tungsten E sounds hot!

kevdo @ 9/2/2003 2:40:21 AM #
I must admit this was my dream device until I became addicted to the camera on the Zire 71. Still, Palm is gonna sell a TON of these pups.

-Kevin Crossman
RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
gfunkmagic @ 9/2/2003 3:37:20 AM #
Agreed! I think the T|E may soon become one of the most popular PalmOne pda's ever. This is basically the specs of the T2 minus BT in a (hopefully) slimmer form factor. I would love if PalmOne finally reclaimed the "thinness" factor from the h1940 etc. I wish the T|E had VG, but PalmOne is probably reserving that feature for its higher end Tungstens. I only hope Palm releases those OS 5 BT SD drivers soon!!!

-better living through better technology.
RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
heavyduty @ 9/2/2003 4:00:18 AM #
I figured that the TE would be a very interesting device, and the latest info seems to prove me right: looks like we are finally getting a T2 in a m500 case!! And I'm glad they kept the predicted specs.
Now let's just hope that it has stereo output; if so I fear that the mp3 output volume will remain low.
RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
I.M Anonymous @ 9/2/2003 9:02:03 AM #
If the T|E is a) thin and b) has audio hardware for MP3s, then I'll buy one. It sounds like just what I've been waiting for.

Also, the Zire 21 with OS 5 sounds interesting, but what is the advantag of OS 5 over OS 4 on a low-res B&W display with no wireless or multimedia capability?

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
LiveFaith @ 9/2/2003 11:10:15 AM #
What do you mean what's the difference! That OMAP will increase the speed of finding a name in the address book by .077ms per search! Over the course of 35 years the average user will save between 13 and 25 seconds. Faster is better. :-)

Seriously, Palm has got the marketing right on the low end Zire. My wife uses my old Vx and saw a Zire at a store one day and fell in love with it. Never mind that her Vx is better in every way except weight & OS version. She was magnetized by that "Mary Kay" image.

The Sony SJ20 has recently been dropped to $99 and is light years ahead of the Zire from a technical standpoint. Surely Palm will dump the 160x160 dark age resolution and/or give SD expansion and/or color screen and/or shrink the device to the smallest one of all time.

Sony won't have the marketing saavy, but their side by side product will visually blow the Z21 away at the sub-$100 price point. IMO, and I'm a Palm guy.

Pat Horne;

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
Altema @ 9/2/2003 1:03:39 PM #
The speed difference can be quite drastic between the OMAP and the DragonBall. For example, compressing a very large ebook with Wordsmith on an M515 took almost 20 minutes. It's a lot of processing, but still, that's a pretty long wait. The exact same book on the T|T takes 18 *seconds*.

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
amflores @ 9/2/2003 2:40:48 PM #
Nobody mentioned that it syncs through a usb cable, which will limitate the options of accesories (if there´s anyone at all) and the keyboard to an infrared one. At least for me, pass on that

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
JKingGrim @ 9/2/2003 2:48:38 PM #
Also, the Zire 21 with OS 5 sounds interesting, but what is the advantag of OS 5 over OS 4 on a low-res B&W display with no wireless or multimedia capability?

Why not multimedia? You don't need hires and color to play mp3s. Now, the cheapest PDA on the market can play mp3s. This is great. Palm is certainly on a roll with the T3, Z71, Z21, and T|e. They are all excellent PDAs.

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
amin @ 9/2/2003 4:50:48 PM #
I doubt the T|E will play MP3s. Something has to give. Still, I think this device will be great if it has the old m5xx form.

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
I.M Anonymous @ 9/2/2003 5:18:21 PM #
Let me rephrase my list of things the T|E would need for me to buy it:

1) decent sound (i.e. MP3 capability)
2) a thin form factor
3) a universal connector
4) decent battery life

If it has all four, I'm sold.

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
treo007 @ 9/2/2003 7:34:18 PM #
It does sound like a solid PDA; however, I was really hoping for the thumboard. I don't necessarily expect it to have BT at this price point (although the promise of bluetooth was that it would be so cheap, even initially, that it would be as standard as color screens), but that would make it the ultimate PDA for me.

Basically a T2 with a thumboard slider. I'd pay $300 for that.

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
hotpaw4 @ 9/2/2003 7:37:58 PM #
someone asked:
> what is the advantag of OS 5 over OS 4 on a low-res B&W display with no wireless or multimedia capability

Lower power and much higher performance for applications which have had their compute bound sections recompiled into native (pno)armlets.

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
Foo Fighter @ 9/2/2003 8:12:26 PM #
Yeah, if it can play digital audio that is actually loud enough to listen to, and it is thinner and lighter than the Tungsten C (which is a brick), then I may upgrade from my Zire 71. One thing that is a must on my list: a flip cover. No flip sale.

My blog:
RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
Timothy Rapson @ 9/2/2003 8:43:19 PM #
RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
Altema @ 9/2/2003 1:03:39 PM

The speed difference can be quite drastic between the OMAP and the DragonBall. For example, compressing a very large ebook with Wordsmith on an M515 took almost 20 minutes. It's a lot of processing, but still, that's a pretty long wait. The exact same book on the T|T takes 18 *seconds*.

WOW, I was thinking of displaying JPEGs, but now that you mention it, I do sometimes wait until my Clie NR is in the cradle and just let it compress a 1 meg book for 20 minutes. 18 seconds? I could do that while getting my pajamas on to read the book at bedtime.

But, I REALLY NEED virtual graffiti for FITALY virtual. That means a T3, but I am not interested in paying $400 for hardware that is roughly equivalent to what Dell will be selling for half that by the time the T3 arrives.

What a messy market. What I really want is....well, we have all said it a million times and Sony is not making a TG50 with VG for $250.

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
SJWeise @ 9/2/2003 9:39:08 PM #
One can only hope Palm would NOT be foolish enough to exclude an SD slot. The lack of the universal connector can allow the price to drop but are there any peripherals that use that mini-usb? After investing in a few for my m515, I'm not exactly jumping for joy over the mini-usb. As far as mp3, I seriously doubt it will have an earphone jack, probably just a decent (palm-decent) speaker. Still, the 200 dollar price makes it tempting as an upgrade (holdover) till OS6 comes out ) and gives us the time to wait for the usual price drop...)

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
useybird @ 9/2/2003 10:45:05 PM #
For a product line that is supposed to be high-end and professional, not including a SD slot and universal connector sounds like a backwards step to me.

Microsoft is the root of all evil.
Right, Bill?
RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
heavyduty @ 9/3/2003 3:37:54 AM #
** As far as mp3, I seriously doubt it will have an earphone jack **

It WILL be mp3 capable, they can't afford not to offer that since it would seriously cripple the sales.

RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
salami @ 9/4/2003 2:45:42 PM #
Palm has made product mistakes in the past and this could be their next. Palm needs to stick to the strategy they have unveiled for the Tungsten and Zire sub-brands. Tungsten for Business and Zire for personal. In this case, the Tungsten E needs to be packaged with a universal connector so people can use a standard cradle and other options like keyboards and modems. Without a universal connector, it's another Palm blunder.
RE: Tungsten E sounds hot!
gwj2000 @ 9/4/2003 11:36:17 PM #
The real truth is that Smartphones will not take off in the U.S. until the cellular providers finally decide to use one platform. They have sold quite well in Europe due to the fact that GSM is the sole platform for cellular networks. CDMA, TDMA, CDPD, c'mon! GSM is the way for them to go to make all U.S. phones useable worldwide. Then perhaps the prices will be competitive and reasonable enough for people to go out and buy. I use the Tungsten W and love it. I use it in Europe whenever I travel there.

Zire 21 - OS 5? Wow!

kevdo @ 9/2/2003 2:40:21 AM #
I would have never guessed they'd put OS 5 on a $99 device this soon. Still, with the T|E at $199, and minus a color screen this does seem plausible.

If so, that's a MUCH more capable starter PDA (even in 160x160 grayscale) than the original Zire.

More kudos to Palm for really pushing the market. Hope they sell a ton of these.

-Kevin Crossman

RE: Zire 21 - OS 5? Wow!
I.M Anonymous @ 9/2/2003 9:04:36 AM #
What is the advantage of OS 5 over OS 4 on a low-res B&W display with no wireless or multimedia capability?

RE: Zire 21 - OS 5? Wow!
helf @ 9/2/2003 9:35:10 AM #
well lets see... A faster cpu which means most os5 apps would run on it. Like the mp3 programs. Lots of devs im sure will create a version of their game to support the z21. You would be able to run emulators much faster..

RE: Zire 21 - OS 5? Wow!
hkklife @ 9/2/2003 9:48:30 AM #
Isn't all of this horsepower/ OS5 capability essentially wasted for games due to the utterly revolting lack of hard buttons?

Can you imagine the two-fold backwards compatability problems Joe 6-Packs are going to have with this new Zire--*every* OS5-enhanced program to date has assumed that a 5-way navigator or a Sony jog dial will be present. If this Z21 mimicks the original Zire that closely, the same 4-button layout will prevail. Also, most OS5-specific titles also assume a minimum fixed screen resolution of 320*320...with this new Zire and the upcoming Treo also at 160*160 (albeit in color) I think we can expect some developer headaches and a lot of folks keeping their fingers crossed for updates to existing apps/games.

In short, my personal summary of the new units:

T3: Great concept that has taken way too long to appear. I'm personally a slider fan but I'd still prefer a long & think m515 tablet style unit with VG. I do not care at all for the new "organic" button layout. I'll stick with my T2 for a while longer. Right now, Palm had better make sure the build quality is rock solid and all the lingering bugs are squashed before this puppy ships.

T|E: Wow, I have to admit I am very surprised about how much Palm is packing into a $200 unit. The *only* possible caveat I could think of at this time would be screen quality (will it be a T or a T2 type screen?), mp3 volume, and build quality. Since I have (and many PIC faithful) have *zero* use for BT at this time, the E would be a perfect unit. But why oh why did Palm not see fit to include the UC instead of the mini USB port? That just reeks of cheapness. If nothing else, the UC should be a de facto standard on all Tungsten handhelds (yes, yes, I know that Tungsten does not necessarily equal high-end handhelds but you'd think standardization of expansion would be the goal of units targeted at corporations or enterprise users). Still, the E has the potential to be the best bang for the buck Palm *EVER*!

Z21: Well, I never did care for the original Zire and it looks like I still won't care for this one. If this one is still non-backlit and adhering to the same (lack of) buttons as the original Zire I'll eat my socks. The inclusion of the faster CPU and OS 5 is _very_ puzzling to me...I thought Palm announced last fall that we'd still see OS 4.x units for the forseeable future? I'd rather see Palm introduce a very sleek OS 4.x handheld at this price point, fitted with a nice backlit screen (like m500) and a decent button layout-perhaps even a T|T style D-pad to keep all the kids happy? I was also hoping the mini USB cable silliness was a temporary solution just for the it looks like it's spreading to the Tungsten line as well. Still, this will sell loads of units-it's not nearly as severely crippled /obsolete in '03 at $99 as the Zire was in '02 at the same price point.

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