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Comments on: Sony Ericsson Denies PalmSource Talks

Days after we published a piece on how Nagel mentioned that there are some new top tier Palm OS licensees coming soon, Sony Ericsson has refuted the claim that they are in talks with PalmSource.
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Damn,

NikMan @ 10/17/2003 12:45:48 PM #
Damn, I was looking forward to it.

Anyway, first post and I hope SE will change it's mind soon!

RE: Damn,
ardiri @ 10/17/2003 12:48:36 PM #
> NikMan @ 10/17/2003 12:45:48 PM
> ardiri @ 10/17/2003 12:41:24 PM

hmm.. seems i did beat you by 3 and a half minutes! but, i just took too damn long to write my reply :P


---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Damn,
NikMan @ 10/17/2003 12:50:07 PM #
I must agree, and also you did a good reply either.

RE: Damn,
Token User @ 10/17/2003 2:28:54 PM #
NikMan channeling Yoda?

I would love to see a triband GSM/GPRS enabled Clie ...
Would that be a Sony or a SE product?

Or (in the spirit of Ford/Mazda, GMC/Chevrolet, Nissan/Infiniti, Honda/Acura) would it come out as "Sony Clie PEG-GSM70Q" vs "Sony Ericsson P2000"?

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: Damn,
Fammy @ 10/17/2003 2:59:20 PM #
>> hmm.. seems i did beat you by 3 and a half minutes! but, i just took too damn long to write my reply :P

I swear the commenting system on PIC is based on the time you hit "Reply" on the article and not "Post comment" on the comment authoring screen.

I've seen posts appear out of order before. One day, I'm going to wait until a story is posted, hit reply and wait half a day. Then I'll post the annoying "first post" post and shoot to the top. If I'm wrong, I'll look like an idiot.

...

Upon further inspection, I may be right. The comment time is embedded on the authoring screen, allowing for my loophole:

Some clever HTML skills may allow me to first post this thread. =)

-- Fammy

RE: Damn,
Fammy @ 10/17/2003 3:03:40 PM #
crap, the html I pased didn't make it:

<input TYPE="HIDDEN" NAME="Date" VALUE="10/17/2003 2:59:20 PM">

-- Fammy

What The?
Lucky Bob @ 10/17/2003 3:42:31 PM #
...How did you do that?!?

(Why do some people say you can kill two birds with one stone when it's hard enough killing one bird with two stones?)
RE: First Post of the Millennium
blue9 @ 10/17/2003 11:34:20 PM #
Why do people around here get so excited about being the first poster?? :-)

RE: Damn,
KRamsauer @ 10/18/2003 11:03:09 AM #
You're both. :)

Sony Ericsson

ardiri @ 10/17/2003 12:41:24 PM #
this doesn't come as a surprise.

i have witnessed David Nagel at the last two PalmSource seminar events - and, the underlying message he gives out is that Symbian is not a real threat and that is sucks. one of the most disturbing bits of one of his presentations was when he compared how sending a business card over ir/bt was between palm and symbian - the underlying result is that palm had the leading edge because you could just hold down a button; not really a competitive advantage in my eyes.

the Sony Ericsson P800 has been a huge success, and does pose a very serious threat to the Handspring Treo 600 - and, palmsource should be worried. Symbian has a very strong foothold in europe, and is gaining momentum. the introduction of the Nokia 3650 in the USA was probably not good for Palm either - that has been selling like hot cakes.

what PalmSource does need to realize is that they cannot maintain their leadership within the economy. in classic mike cane style - my prediction is that by the end of 2005, the distribution of mobile operating systems will be roughly 33/33/33; an even split between Palm, Pocket PC, and Symbian.

each operating system has their own advantages - and at the same time disadvantages. the race isn't really a race anymore.

i really look forward to the successor of the P800 - it is a great phone! the only real bad thing about Symbian is its development tool kits - they should learn a few lessons from Palm :)

there is a reason why we have, internally decided to definately push on in the multi platform market.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson
Gar @ 10/17/2003 2:20:42 PM #
Yup... or, just like any other large corps, they do not confirm or comment on anything in the 'talks'. This avoids killing off any buyers of the P800 they have on their shelves. Who would buy something that will be end of life? If it is or it isn't, most people wont risk it.
If PalmOne was to say they had a deal in the talks with Apple. Apple would come right out and say they knew nothing about it. Until the ink is dry and the checks are in the bank, it's best not to say anything. PalmOne would be the only winner with it's news of talks with anyone 'big'.

-----------------
My wife has to sell a lot of candles (www.ccandles.com) to buy her new Palm.
RE: Sony Ericsson
Ho @ 10/17/2003 6:53:07 PM #
Psion (Symbian shareholder) in its previous life was extremely secretive about their unreleased products, would not comment on any leaks or hint on any future releases. The long gaps between new products didn't help either. The result was large number of customers holding back purchases whenever leaks come out.

Wouldn't it be more sensible to clear old stock by slashing prices and be open with new products? Car manufacturers do that all the time. eg VW made no secret of their 2004 new golf, yet people are flogging to showrooms to buy their reduced price out-going model.

What do they gain by being secretive? The gadget freaks will wait for new model; the budget buyer will also wait hoping a new model will bring the old model price down. Result - everyone waits until new model arrives. So why no reduce price now, so at least the budget buyer buys now.



RE: Sony Ericsson
Edward Green @ 10/18/2003 10:54:33 AM #
I was very tempted by the Symbian SE devices. The p800 is a really nice piece of kit. I went with the Treo 600 because it was at the end of the day it cost me £100 ($160) which included a free 32mb memory card (thanks Orange) where as the p800 is still much more than that.

The reason Palm is talking up Smartphones in Europe is that over here Smartphones are cheaper than the equivalent Handheld without the phone because of contract subsidies. Why spend £400 on a Palm when you can get a symbian device with phone for £200?

The Treo 600 coming in so cheap is a good move by Palm/Handspring. I am over the moon with mine, and the great software package that Orange and Handspring have included. The only downside to my Treo is that it won't play Master Thief .. even the version that is supposed to work on the Treo 600. But I am sure the engine will be fixed soon ... hint ... hint.

As for Sony doing a PalmOS phone, I would snap it up, but a Clie clamshell phone would be so much cheaper than a non phone version that Sony may eat into their own PDA market. There are marketing as well as practical reasons why smartphones are still behind the curve compared to PalmOS stand alones. Why do you think Microsoft has completely different versions of its OS?

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

RE: Sony Ericsson
ardiri @ 10/18/2003 1:07:33 PM #
> The only downside to my Treo is that it won't play Master Thief ..
> even the version that is supposed to work on the Treo 600.
> But I am sure the engine will be fixed soon ... hint ... hint.

there is a version that is supposed to work on the Treo 600? first i heard of that :) the ARM code within the master theif game only works with 320x320 rendering; and, the Treo 600 is 160x160 :( its on the every long to-do list :)


---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson
mikecane @ 10/18/2003 2:36:22 PM #
>>>in classic mike cane style

Please leave my name out of your posts. It does not flatter me. It annoys me.

Mike Cane
quiklogin @ 10/18/2003 4:52:52 PM #
You poor thing.

The Osborne effect
hotpaw4 @ 10/20/2003 1:49:58 AM #
> Wouldn't it be more sensible to clear old stock by slashing prices and be
> open with new products? Car manufacturers do that all the time...

Works for cars. The Osborne Computer was a high flying company which had a top selling PC, so they figured they could do the same. They were bankrupt within the year.

So now, all successful tech companies are very careful in controlling how they release information about future products in order to manage cash flow.

RE: Sony Ericsson
orb2069 @ 10/20/2003 11:29:54 AM #
One of the most disturbing bits of one of his presentations was when he compared how sending a
business card over ir/bt was between palm and symbian - the underlying result is that palm had the leading edge because you could just hold down a button; not really a competitive advantage in my eyes.

I think you carried away the wrong message - I think the whole business card thing is more demonstrative of design philopsophy/ergonomics than it is of a specific technology - You've said yourself (elsewhere in this thread, IIRC) that you don't use PIM apps, and "...to me, a handheld is a glorified gameboy."

Try using the PIMs and other PDA functions for a few months, and you might have a better understanding of why PalmOS has managed to keep the lion's share of the market so long - And what Nagel's talking about when he says he dosen't consider Symbian a serious competitor.

RE: Sony Ericsson
markmp @ 10/21/2003 12:09:09 AM #
the Sony Ericsson P800 has been a huge success, and does pose a very serious threat to the Handspring Treo 600 - and, palmsource should be worried. Symbian has a very strong foothold in europe, and is gaining momentum. the introduction of the Nokia 3650 in the USA was probably not good for Palm either - that has been selling like hot cakes.

I have used the Nokia 3650 in UK. It has quite possibly one of the worst user interfaces I have seen on a device. When Nagel says he doesn't view Symbian as a serious competitor I completely agree - at least as a threat to the existing Palm user base. The only threat might be loosing share to new users who have never used a Palm OS handheld (users coming from a cel phone with an even worse interface than the 3650). Even if PalmSource viewed that as a threat, what incentive would they have to say so?

Prior to using the Nokia 3650, I spent a lot of time with the Treo 600. It truly is a brilliant design. It destroys the Nokia 3650 more than 10-fold in terms of usability. There are a lot of really subtle things that you don't notice on the Treo until you use something else.

Some examples:

-Putting in an SD/MMC card to store pictures:
On Treo: insert card into top of device
On 3650: Remove back cover, remove battery, install card with annoying bracket clip, replace cover and battery, power on and wait for phone reg.

-Setting phone to Vibrate
On Treo: flip switch on top of phone
On 3650: go into menu, go several levels deep, select silent profile (assuming this exists), exit menu

These are just two examples of many.

Question: What devices are using the Palm OS Telephony API? Tungsten-W? I don't think Treo Telephony API is the standard Palm OS Telephony API.


RE: Sony Ericsson
ardiri @ 10/21/2003 3:50:29 AM #
lets not confuse Series 60 and UIQ 2.0

they are two different user interfaces, and, the Nokia 3650 uses Series 60 - which is, as you say "SUCKY".

series 60:
http://www.wirelessdevnet.com/symbian/rb_24.html

uiq 2.0:
http://www.symbian.com/news/2002/uiq-feat.html

the sony ericsson P800 uses UIQ 2.0 - and, that is a much more 'mature' user interface for the user. i have both the nokia 3650 and the P800; i prefer the P800. the 'benefits' which most users are posting about the 'Palm' smartphones is that some times, (most of the time), they have put little usability shortcuts on the devices (Treo 600: mute, all: single key for sending business card). these hacks are only at face value - i am sure the symbian developer community could also develop hacks for the operating system to get the same functionality; hence why i dont see it so 'important'.

but, you are right - the 'out of the box' experience is important for most people. most people want a phone, and, wouldn't mind PIM functionality; so, they buy a unit like P800 (most important = phone). other users want PIM and wouldn't mind a phone - so, they probably will go with a well established device such as the Treo 600. different flavours for different people. there is no true single device for everyone.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson
Token User @ 10/21/2003 3:03:39 PM #
but, you are right - the 'out of the box' experience is important for most people. most people want a phone, and, wouldn't mind PIM functionality; so, they buy a unit like P800 (most important = phone). other users want PIM and wouldn't mind a phone - so, they probably will go with a well established device such as the Treo 600. different flavours for different people. there is no true single device for everyone.

This statement is bang on, and something many armchair analysts miss when they are pushing their own biases. Sure, the P800 and Treo 600 are both convergent devices, but they are coming from different directions, and still target different markets, despite the fact that their feature sets are becoming similar.

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: Sony Ericsson
mikecane @ 10/23/2003 2:08:39 PM #
Right. Does UIQ stand for anything?

Awwwwwwwwww

goofrider @ 10/17/2003 12:32:10 PM #
That's a shame. 'Cuz Sony Ericsson is probably the best partner PalmSource can have to bring their smartphone platform to the mass.

Sony Ericsson's enginnering has gotten better and better, their product line has much better focus than Nokia and Samsung, they have the most momentum in market share right now, most of their customers are more tech-savvy, their phones are the most customizable, and they have the best Bluetooth implementation among all mobile phones.

Look what they did with the P900. It's just breathtaking. I can't imagine what they can do with a Palm OS phone.

As much as I love the Treo 600, it's still gonna take a major mobile phone manufacturer to move Palm OS smartphones beyond the niche market, and it wouldn't be Samsung. Even though Samsung has the market share and quailty, it simply lacks focus in their smartphone offerings. They sells Palm OS phones, PPC phones, and soon Series 60 phones too.

In any case, OS 6 is due soon and I expect PalmSource to price the license fee of their OS 5 Phone Edition very competitively, driving down the price of OS5 smartphones rapidly.

RE: Symbian
PDAJah @ 10/17/2003 3:52:03 PM #

Question: Why did SE use Symbian for the R380 and not Palm OS?

Question: With Sony's expertise in Palm why did SE use Symbian for the P800?

Question: Would Palm like to se 1 million units (YES 1 million) like SE has managed to sell with the P800?

The answer to all the questions is to do with the maturity of Symbian as an OS for smartphones. Palm, unfortunatley, do not have a pedigree in cellphones and therefore Palm OS and Palm devices have been weak on communications. Symbian was developed by cellphone companies!

Jah

RE: Awwwwwwwwww
Palminator @ 10/17/2003 6:25:32 PM #
The real issue is exactly what has been stated here ... Symbian is an OS designed specifically for smartphones and has all the communications stacks and baseband support built right into the OS. SE has probably taken a look at PalmOS and discovered there is a high cost of entry to use PalmOS in a phone. Samsung, Kyocera, and HandSpring have already made this investment. Don't expect anyone else to make such a large investment when there are much lower cost options (Symbian and MSFT). PalmSource "may" be able to hold onto a small market share with the established licensees, but they will have a difficult time convincing others.

I'd like to see Panasonic/Matsushita as a vendor.

JonAcheson @ 10/17/2003 6:29:27 PM #
As far as I know, they aren't in the PDA business, but they probably could be in short order if they wanted to. And they might be able to give Sony a run for their money.

Samsung might be nice too.


"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

David Nagel: "Serious error"

The Ugly Truth @ 10/18/2003 2:30:33 AM #
There is now massive fallout from this happening at Palm. Nagel might just have well posted photos of the upcoming Sony Ericsson Palm OS phones and be done with it. Some people here were calling for his head today. We should know more by Monday.



Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: David Nagel: "Serious error"
The Ugly Truth @ 10/27/2003 4:37:37 PM #
It wasn't pretty.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia

The Ugly Truth @ 10/18/2003 2:54:11 AM #
Even though Sony Ericsson has been losing money, most of the R + D is now over, so they can start cranking out the phones and the profits in 2004. Model for model, their Symbian phones already beat Nokia in terms of design.

http://www.sonyericsson.com

When Sony brings their Palm OS phones online, Nokia will start to wilt. Sony's patience and planning will pay off in a huge year for them in 2004.

On the other hand, Nokia's new N-Gage platform is about to become a monumental flop. (If Nokia was Japanese, they at least could give N-Gage engineers the traditional swords and allow these people to redeem themselves for having brought Shame to the House of Nokia.)

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
ardiri @ 10/18/2003 5:36:53 AM #
i am not sure it is really a question about Sony Ericsson crushing Nokia.

being in Sweden, i have some fairly good contacts at Sony Ericsson; and, nothing along the lines of PalmOS licensing is at all on their table. hell, if it was, i am sure they would be talking to me about PalmOS stuff; not Symbian work. knowing how Nagel thinks; it is most likely a wish list item he has conjoured up in his head that he just accidently blabbed out loud.

Sony Ericsson and Nokia will continue to pursue the Symbian OS; the latest Nokia phone 6600 is in fact a Symbian 7.0 phone; the same operating system that the P800 will run on. the reality is that PalmOS was not built for phone use. the P900 is a dream compared to the P800; as one of the lucky ones to actually have had the ability to hold one of those phones.

the Handspring Treo 600 required just over one year to tweak/hack to the OS5 code base to get an acceptable 'phone environment' - i have a Treo 600 and, i am quite surprised at how well it fits together. however, it would have really made a statement with 320x320 and built in bluetooth.

PalmSource's biggest problem is that they think the rest of the world is like the USA. just talk to people high up in PalmSource within europe; and they shake their heads at some of the visions of their american counter parts. Symbian, like Pocket PC is here to stay; PalmSource needs to accept that.

Nokia and Sony Ericsson rule the telecommunications market; each with their own special touches. Nokia is going for the mass market with their smartphones; Sony Ericsson is pushing the enterprise market; however, have a very good competitive edge with the mass market phones by shipping with mophun(tm) - a virtual machine focused on gaming (also, swedish design).

the fact that i live in Sweden does have some advantages :)

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
fool faughter @ 10/18/2003 9:45:45 AM #
Aaron....as a developer and Nordic phone user, what do you personally think of the two environments from this point forward? Me mentioned the Palm OS had to be hacked and tweaked to get there. Well it is here now, there are not huge leaps now required.
RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
fool faughter @ 10/18/2003 10:21:24 AM #
Of course I mean't "You" mentioned Palm OS was tweaked, not "Me". Typo
RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
The Ugly Truth @ 10/18/2003 12:43:44 PM #
being in Sweden, i have some fairly good contacts at Sony Ericsson; and, nothing along the lines of PalmOS licensing is at all on their table.

I've been told otherwise. We'll see soon enough. And always remember your NDAs.


Sony Ericsson and Nokia will continue to pursue the Symbian OS; the latest Nokia phone 6600 is in fact a Symbian 7.0 phone; the same operating system that the P800 (sic) will run on. the reality is that PalmOS was not built for phone use. the P900 is a dream compared to the P800; as one of the lucky ones to actually have had the ability to hold one of those phones.

The P900 is a slick piece of work (looks like the toothpick stylus design was borrowed from a CLIE, though...) but Symbian has been slow to take off in the US for a number of reasons. Even if/when the P900 (and the new chunky clamshell Z600) make it to the US, I doubt Sony Ericsson will be as well received as in Euroland.


the Handspring Treo 600 required just over one year to tweak/hack to the OS5 code base to get an acceptable 'phone environment' - i have a Treo 600 and, i am quite surprised at how well it fits together. however, it would have really made a statement with 320x320 and built in bluetooth.

The Treo 600 is quite impressive. Now that Handspring has laid the foundation, Palm OS's future in phones is irrefutable. While I don't see much need for 320 x 320 in it, I agree they should have squeezed in Bluetooth (to allow for wireless headsets). Then again, Bluetoothless is dead (in the US and therefore, the universe).

PalmSource's biggest problem is that they think the rest of the world is like the USA.

That's an American trait that almost killed the US auto industry as well.

Nokia and Sony Ericsson rule the telecommunications market; each with their own special touches. Nokia is going for the mass market with their smartphones; Sony Ericsson is pushing the enterprise market; however, have a very good competitive edge with the mass market phones by shipping with mophun(tm) - a virtual machine focused on gaming (also, swedish design).

While Mophun may eventually take off, why bother with yet another platform when we already have a mature Palm OS library of games?

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
ardiri @ 10/18/2003 12:54:12 PM #
> Aaron....as a developer and Nordic phone user, what do you personally think
> of the two environments from this point forward?

what exactly do you mean by 'environments'?

in my previous posts, i have stated that Palm, Pocket PC and Symbian will eventually share the market 33/33/33 - and, i strongly believe this; mainly because i am not blinded like many american companies are. being in an independent area of the world where it is possible to see nearly all the options available, and, have the opportunity to work with the various companies behind them - we (mobilewizardry) are making the appropriate steps in our development plans; you have to support every platform.

> You mentioned the Palm OS had to be hacked and tweaked to get there.
> Well it is here now, there are not huge leaps now required.

the point is, it isn't there for *every* licensee to use. Handspring own it. i guess, the merger means PalmOne will probably get those changes. it took a LONG time to actually get the Treo 600 in a workable state; which, i must say - is awesome. i just dont like the screen (its dim, and, lo-res) but, its form factor, battery life and usability are great.

i love my Treo 600 in regards to it as a device; it works well as a smartphone - however, it does have some problems; but, nothing that would stop it from being a phone. the Treo 600 can make a serious dent to the Sony Ericsson market - as long as they keep the device cheap; and, market it correctly. the other problem is that it will be very hard to get a Treo 600 that isn't SIM locked - your only option is to go with Orange or a provider that can subsidise it.

being in Sweden, you cannot get the Treo 600 right now. i probably have one of the only Treo 600's in sweden. w00t.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
ardiri @ 10/18/2003 1:01:26 PM #
> Aaron....as a developer and Nordic phone user

lets clarify this, i regularly use the following mobile phones:

- Palm Tungsten|W (Palm)
- Treo 600 (Palm)
- Nokia 3650 (Symbian)
- Sony Ericsson P800 (Symbian)
- Sony Ericsson T200 (proprietary)
- Sony Ericsson T66 (proprietary)

depending on how much battery life i have in each device; i also have two mobile phone numbers (work + personal). do you know what my favourite phone is? the T66 and T200 :) they are phones.. just phones.. what else would i want a phone for?

GPRS over the P800 and Treo 600 is very nice. my Nokia 3650 just refuses to work over GPRS - i have to admit that the Treo 600 set itself up automatically; a definate plus.

in addition, for the record, i might as well justify why i have such opinions about 'handheld' devices in general - mainly because i have a serious stash of devices. you can see for yourself here:

http://www.ardiri.com/pdas.jpg

and, i can honestly tell you, in the five years i have owned a handheld device (first was Palm III) - i have NEVER used it to store phone numbers, addresses etc etc. i am a post-it note guy, and, rely on my laptop for everything i do. :)

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
PDAJah @ 10/18/2003 1:23:13 PM #
Aaron

As a user I found Palm OS 4.1 (clie nr70) very difficult to use. No multi-tasking and memort card management (applications) just did not seem consistent. On the other hand, the P800 (and my experience with Psion 5, Ericsson MC218, etc) is that the OS treats main memory and memory cards in a seamless manner. Now I use these are examples of the lack of maturity of Palm. Also, some apps were not designed for the Clie NR70's screen etc. Now have things changed with Palm 5? And why has it taken Palm so long to design an OS with communications built-in. For example, on the Clie I found it hard to find a good SMS app. Would be keen to hear you thoughts.

Jah

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
ardiri @ 10/18/2003 1:52:17 PM #
> As a user I found Palm OS 4.1 (clie nr70) very difficult to use.

it comes down to what you want to use the device for; the clie nr70 was obviously not the device you should have chosen; as, it doesn't target what you want from the handheld

> No multi-tasking and memort card management (applications) just
> did not seem consistent.

multi-tasking is a big no-no, you know, zen of palm.

as for card management; it can be consistent - however, the manner in which developers have implemented card support has been sporatic. the developer community hasnät been consistent; maybe too early to market? lack of support from the operating system providers?

> Now I use these are examples of the lack of maturity of Palm.

i can think of many use-cases where palm would be better than other handheld operating systems; especially when you want single tasking :)

> Also, some apps were not designed for the Clie NR70's screen etc.
> Now have things changed with Palm 5?

developer issue - not device. OS5 introduced a standard 'user interface' library; and, its changing once again to handle the virtual grafitti/slider mechanisms; its become a serious nightmare for developers; many have tons and tons of code just for Sony, Handera, Palm, and Tapwave.

> And why has it taken Palm so long to design an OS with
> communications built-in.

communications has been there for a while - palmos 3.0 introduced infrared, bluetooth came later; and, there is now even 802.11b in the Palm devices :)

your definition of communications is different - you want SMS/email etc; well, Palm isn't an operating system designed for that. its like trying to unscrew a screw in the wall with a hammer.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
Edward Green @ 10/18/2003 2:12:16 PM #
Handspring tweaks OS 5 to be almost as good as symbian for phones ... heck I think I prefer the T600 to the P800.

Palm buys Handspring.

PalmOS announces a Phone Edition of OS 5.

I imagine that the new Phone Edition OS 5 will be a lot like the Handspring Version. For the sake of every license.



Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
Edward Green @ 10/18/2003 2:16:15 PM #
Oh and Aaron am I the only person who gives my old PDA's away when I upgrade? :)

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk
RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
mikecane @ 10/18/2003 2:40:33 PM #
>>>and, i can honestly tell you, in the five years i have owned a handheld device (first was Palm III) - i have NEVER used it to store phone numbers, addresses etc etc. i am a post-it note guy, and, rely on my laptop for everything i do. :)

Christ. >facial expression of disgust<

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
PDAJah @ 10/18/2003 3:47:12 PM #
E Green

please note SE sold over 1 million P800s. This is big business that even Palm would difficulty in matching!

Jah

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
ardiri @ 10/18/2003 4:04:23 PM #
> Christ. >facial expression of disgust<

why the disgust?

i dont see a need for using a handheld the way most users do. i just develop software for them. to me, a handheld is a glorified gameboy. every person to their own. and, the PDA count is up at around 60 now - and, none of them are for sale (most are pre-release, beta units... what i could consider collectables). anyone looking for a Tungsten|T development board? :)

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
The Ugly Truth @ 10/18/2003 7:15:02 PM #
please note SE sold over 1 million P800s. This is big business that even Palm would difficulty in matching!

Jah

I can't confirm those figures, but not many of those P800s were sold in the US. (The P900 may do better - it's a better design and pushes what Symbian can do to the limit, with a slick GUI and sleeker form. Port Palm OS to the P900 and Sony Ericsson will crush Nokia overnight.)

If Palm wanted to jumpstart sales of the Treo 600 they should have priced it much more competitively in the US. At $600 for the phone ($500 with a one year contract), it will be a hard sell compared to "free" phones and Sony Ericsson's relatively inexpensive Symbian lineup. The only people that will be buying in for that price will be previous Palm owners desperate to avoid carrying two separate devices. That's a pretty small market. Once these experienced customers have all rushed out and upgraded (most likely within the next two months, once cell phone number portability has arrived in the US) who are the carriers expecting will be paying those prices for the Treo 600? It will be a hard sell to the average buyer that is typically more impressed with small size and slick design than with "featuritis". Unless they drop prices to a more reasonable level (~$300), we'll all be hearing carriers complaining next spring about how the Treo 600 was such a "flop".

After seeing the price structure of Sprint this month, I'm going to wait for AT&T's version of the Treo 600. Lighter, better battery life (supposedly), bundled email and SMS apps, and hopefully more intelligent pricing than Sprint.

Sprint: Can you hear me now? Click.


Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
PDAJah @ 10/18/2003 8:13:41 PM #
Have a look here, The Register refer to sales of the P800

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/68/33216.html



Jah

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
The Ugly Truth @ 10/18/2003 8:35:25 PM #
Thanks for the link. Here's a few links for those wondering what all the fuss is about the Sony Ericsson P900. While it's a very slick smartphone, I still feel the T610 is the ideal form factor for a smartphone.

http://www.mobile-review.com/review/sonyericsson-p900-en.shtml

http://mobitopia.com/20031003.html#003946

http://www.mobileburn.com/gallery.jsp?Id=408

http://81.91.70.85/mobilbpit/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=5195

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
Edward Green @ 10/19/2003 5:10:58 AM #
Living in Europe I am well aware how well the P800 sold, and I have a feeling that the Treo 600 may sell well too with orange pushing it. Particularly as the only cheaper PalmOS handheld on the market is the Zire.

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk
RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
PDAJah @ 10/19/2003 5:49:33 AM #
E Green

1. It took at least 2 years for Palm to sell the cheaper Zire to reach 1 million units

2. The SE 800 (and now the P900) is sold by ALL networks not just Orange.

Can't see the Treo making the same impact as the forthcoming P900 unless Palm sell SIM free and on other networks. Palm are not a mobile phone company - they are still learning. Palm are following and Nokia and SE are leading.

Jah

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
Edward Green @ 10/20/2003 5:04:37 AM #
I agree that the Treo 600 is a long way from challenging the the SE devices, but at least (unlike with the Treo's) HS/P have a decent network pushing the device.

Sure the launch has been a bit wobbley, but every launch of phones is wobbley.

I think the main message to Palm and the PDA makers is that Europe is embracing Smartphones big time .. purely because they are CHEAPER than PDA's for the same feature set. This must be a big headache for US caompanies who operate in a different market.

Take for example the N-Gage. The difference between an nGage and a Tapwave Zodiac is significant. The Zodiac is the better device. The difference is is that nGage is free with a contract. How can Tapwave compete in Europe with a device that is free?

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
The Ugly Truth @ 10/20/2003 10:42:42 PM #
I think the main message to Palm and the PDA makers is that Europe is embracing Smartphones big time .. purely because they are CHEAPER than PDA's for the same feature set.


Palm and US carriers must have convincing research showing that Americans would rather pay $500 for a Palm PDA-phone than get a Symbian smartphone for free.

Palm has been fortunate up until now that Symbian has been a dud in the US because of problems with the various carriers. From what I've seen in the past few months, these problems are being sorted out and Symbian may win out if only because they're on most phones by default. Palm + Co. need to sacrifice short term per-phone profits in order to get the market share the platform needs to establish itself against Symbian.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
ardiri @ 10/21/2003 3:59:26 AM #
>> being in Sweden, i have some fairly good contacts at Sony Ericsson;
>> and, nothing along the lines of PalmOS licensing is at all on their table.
>
> I've been told otherwise. We'll see soon enough.
> And always remember your NDAs.

to follow up on this, let me add that Palm constantly does talk to its competitors; this includes Microsoft and Sony Ericsson. however, the level of these talks vary - to say they are not talking at all is stupid; because you need to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. by all means, there may be some discussion about licensing of technology under play - but, the problem here is the manner in which Nagel put the message out; or, as i should say, the manner in which the press interpreted his statement.

the press has made it seem like Sony Ericsson and Palm are moving forward with plans to license the Palm operating system; realistically? they may be talking - but, its not at a position where they are commited to say they will; and, hence the press release statement from Sony Ericsson on this matter. making such claims can damage existing relationships (Sony Ericsson --> Symbian); maybe this was the intent?

the press screwed this one up; with a little help from Nagel.


---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
hoodoo @ 10/21/2003 10:25:07 AM #
"Living in Europe I am well aware how well the P800 sold, and I have a feeling that the Treo 600 may sell well too with orange pushing it. Particularly as the only cheaper PalmOS handheld on the market is the Zire."

That's quite amazing. When the Treo 600 is released in Canada, it will most likely be the MOST expensive Palm/PPC on the market, even with a contract. Only the Sony UX50 would be more, probably. Something like $700-$800 CAD. The Sony Ericsson P800 is $999.


RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
The Ugly Truth @ 10/22/2003 3:50:33 AM #
the press has made it seem like Sony Ericsson and Palm are moving forward with plans to license the Palm operating system; realistically? they may be talking - but, its not at a position where they are commited to say they will; and, hence the press release statement from Sony Ericsson on this matter.


Sony's press release was damage control, pure and simple. Sony is the seller of the best Symbian phones on the planet, and then Mr Nagel lets it slip about their plans to move into Palm OS. This creates doubt about how committed Sony is to Symbian. Makes it appear that these are interim, lame duck devices, soon to become orphan-ware. It's hard to sell a lame duck smartphone in the USA for $500.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
The Ugly Truth @ 10/22/2003 3:59:50 AM #
When the Treo 600 is released in Canada, it will most likely be the MOST expensive Palm/PPC on the market, even with a contract.

The Treo 600 is probably actually worth the money if you're a power user, but I doubt that many casual users will be biting at that price. It will be a shame to see unrealistic pricing kill off a great device.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
mikecane @ 10/23/2003 2:13:38 PM #
>>>Sony's press release was damage control, pure and simple. Sony is the seller of the best Symbian phones on the planet, and then Mr Nagel lets it slip about their plans to move into Palm OS. This creates doubt about how committed Sony is to Symbian. Makes it appear that these are interim, lame duck devices, soon to become orphan-ware. It's hard to sell a lame duck smartphone in the USA for $500.

What would make it a lame duck?! Would it suddenly stop working because SE went with PalmOS? I don't get it.

RE: Sony Ericsson is STILL going to destroy Nokia
The Ugly Truth @ 10/24/2003 9:39:17 AM #
What would make it a lame duck?!

Which is better: P900 with Symbian OS + Symbian's app library, or same phone with Palm OS (smartphone Edition) and Palm's app library?

Would it suddenly stop working because SE went with PalmOS?

Not suddenly, but they will migrate from Symbian within a generation or two of phones and use this as a selling point over Nokia.



Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

Ooops? Is it SEC time already?

hoplites @ 10/18/2003 2:38:18 PM #
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/68/33464.html

Was Nagel talking up the share price?

Palm had not responded to our calls at press time. A SEC spokesman told us that false statements made with the intention of manipulating the share price have formed the basis of cases in the past. "You have to prove intent," he said. As it can only pursue civil cases, SEC needs to a show preponderance of evidence. And that's something only an investigation can produce

RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
mikecane @ 10/18/2003 2:41:32 PM #
>>>preponderance

ska's vocabulary is getting larger. Thesuri?

RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
hoplites @ 10/18/2003 3:20:32 PM #
Phe0r my cut & paste ski11z.

(PS. RTFA)

RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
ardiri @ 10/18/2003 4:08:05 PM #
> ska's vocabulary is getting larger. Thesuri?

you know mike, i dont know how to really interpret you. first, you get all upset if someone uses your name in one of their posts; (like, so what). people write my name more than yours..

and, whats with this SKA junk? maybe i missed something - but, every time he has made a post some moron has had to say some useless expression. give the guy a break, at least he posts. so what if he spells wrong. i dont captilize my 'i's either - sue me?

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
ardiri @ 10/18/2003 4:11:41 PM #
RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
The Ugly Truth @ 10/18/2003 6:19:43 PM #
Phe0r my cut & paste ski11z.

(PS. RTFA)


U ® 7h3 3l33t h4x0r. W3 Þh33r u.


Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
mikecane @ 10/20/2003 10:17:08 AM #
>>>and, whats with this SKA junk? maybe i missed something

Yes, one of many things.

RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
hoplites @ 10/20/2003 11:58:05 AM #
yes, such as mcane's opinion is equal to big hot air fluff most of the time.

RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
mikecane @ 10/21/2003 9:04:15 AM #
ska, you're fooling no one with your unending aliases. PIC vets know you're nothing but a troll (probably an MS employee or a paid-for-by MS troll). Only newbies and certain developers are ignorant of your trolling.

RE: Ooops? Is it SEC time already?
hoplites @ 10/21/2003 2:34:54 PM #
Hey pal, prove wrong if I post, instead of screaming like a chicken without head. And yes, keeping a single handle would be a convinient for me too. ask that teenie booper mods to quit deleting account.

then you and me can slug it off, you can try to defend your great POS with all mike's opinion (tm) you can muster. Hell you can even print more front page BS about why you won't by PPC because your stylus keep prodding the slider bar. (or was tht other BS. lol...)

You can't even argue coherently, and you scream at me? get out of here.

Real reason - Palm needs Sony Ericsson, but...

PDAJah @ 10/18/2003 6:17:27 PM #
Have a look at this

http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2143700

In summary, a device without cellphone cabailities has no future. Palm has no cellphone background. SE is a technology leader in cellphones. BUT SE does not need anything from Palm as it has Symbian! SE would go back many steps if it had to adopt Palm OS 6 (un tested!).

Jah

RE: Real reason - Palm needs Sony Ericsson, but...
lamp @ 10/18/2003 10:34:38 PM #
Sigh. The chorus of "Palm is dead" has become "the PDA is dead".

The article wasn't particularly insightful. All it's saying is if the PDA doesn't evolve, it will die.

RE: Real reason - Palm needs Sony Ericsson, but...
SPCagigas @ 10/21/2003 4:30:03 PM #
Hmmm....Let's see. They quoted heavily from In-Stat/MDR. Looking at www.instat.com we find that their focus is "Covering the Full Spectrum of Digital Communications Market Research, from Vendor to End User". They wouldn't have a phone-centric point of view in the PDA vs. Smartphone discussion would they?

The first law of research is understand the researcher's goals. Researchers paid by the tobacco industry don't say smoking will kill you. Researchers paid by the cell phone industry don't say PDAs will outsell phones...If they want to keep their funding...

RE: Real reason - Palm needs Sony Ericsson, but...
mikecane @ 10/23/2003 6:21:08 PM #
>>>Researchers paid by the cell phone industry don't say PDAs will outsell phones...

They also won't say cellphones increase the risk of brain tumors...

(Ooh, have I unleashed a backlash here!)

Personally, I still don't like Sony products too much

vesther @ 10/19/2003 12:55:17 AM #
I have to admit that the Sony Clie devices are attractive to the eye, but in terms of expansion, the Memory Stick Scheme is a total turn-off as far as value is concerned.

I also should be pointing out that the new Sony Ericsson Phones that run under Symbian are more likely to require use of Memory Stick as Expansion Means, which could also turn out to be a major turn-off to enthusiasts who prefer open-standard Secure Digital over Sony-Proprietary Memory Stick.

I should also point out that Sony is somewhat an Electronics Monopoly at Japan and America, and Sony IMO should be regulated to give competitors a fair chance, just like Microsoft was deemed a Software Monopoly and needs to economically be placed under control.

IMO Sony Ericsson's committment towards the Symbian OS Platform is a bad move. It might create an Electronics Monopoly if Sony continues to create products people want, but rely on their proprietary hardware schemes to dance on our wallets.

Sony Ericsson should provide freedom of choice between Symbian and Palm Smartphone Edition if they are to destroy Nokia on the long run.

In a Desolate Forest, an enchanted Palm-Powered Handheld is waiting to possess a helpless soul in the wake--The Palm-Powered Handheld's name is EURENZANNIG.

RE: Personally, I still don't like Sony products too much
abhinay @ 10/19/2003 12:05:50 PM #
Actually, I wouldn't call Sony a monopoly. I wouldn't call the Memory Stick Format a Non-Standard either. The Memory Stick format is the second most selling memory format next to compact flash, and is expected to retain its spot as an alternative to SD cards. When the SD Cards go on top, we're bound to see MemStick prices fall.

Sony... a monopoly? hmm... thats a tough statement, considering the fact that they were beaten by Panasonic in terms of sales last year.

Sony itself has acknowledged its products as "premium" priced, because of the design factor, and because of their excellent R&D facility. It is no secret that Sony's R&D is among the best in the world, and thats why they are charging for it.

IMHO, comparing Sony to Microsoft is illogical and rather childish. Microsoft was a monopoly(Windows Platform) and it abused this by shipping IE with Windows, then media player, thus abusing its monopoly. Being a monopoly is not wrong. Abusing it is. Please point out where Sony is abusing its monopoly of any product(if it has one in the first place)

Standardization
Kaseijin @ 10/19/2003 7:16:39 PM #
> I wouldn't call the Memory Stick Format a Non-Standard
> either. The Memory Stick format is the second most
> selling memory format next to compact flash, and is
> expected to retain its spot as an alternative to SD
> cards.

vesther called MS "proprietary", a word which has nothing to do with sales figures. If something proprietary sells well enough, it may become a de facto standard (e.g., Microsoft Windows), but MS has not and is not expected to. (For the record, SD is subject to a uniform-fee-only license, which is more equitable than arbitrary terms from Sony, but neither truly open.)

RE: Personally, I still don't like Sony products too much
orb2069 @ 10/20/2003 12:08:03 PM #
Microsoft was a monopoly(Windows Platform) and it abused this by shipping IE with Windows, then media player, thus abusing its monopoly.

So, if I get you right, using your market position to force adoption of other technology is an abuse of monopoly power?

Please point out where Sony is abusing its monopoly of any product(if it has one in the first place)

You mean, say, like changing their PDA connectors and bases every few releases, in order to 'stick it' to third-party device developers and advance sales of their own peripherals?

Or do you mean all the laptops, mice, photo frames, cameras, PDAs and camcorders that are available from Sony with only a Memory Stick slot?

Or do you mean trying to use their music division to support cramming ATRAC copy protection down consumers' throats?

The list could go on for weeks - You can attempt to weasel out of this by stating that 'Sony dosen't have a monopoly' - But that's cheap legalities, and while they may not be TECHNICALLY in violation, there is more than enough similarity in behavior to make comparisons between Microsoft and Sony not only reasonable, but unflattering as well.

Monopoly or not, it's still taking advantage of your customers, and it's still very nasty business practice.

RE: Personally, I still don't like Sony products too much
ganoe @ 10/20/2003 12:37:32 PM #
> Monopoly or not, it's still taking advantage of your customers

I think you're trying to claim that Sony's use of Memory Stick in all of their devices is a "monopoly." Plenty of companies have those kinds of dependencies between their product models, it has almost nothing to do with being a monopoly (unless Memory Stick had 90-something percent of the market, which it doesn't).

Kodak has a slick photo printer that you can dock your camera with. That isn't a monopoly, it's called a "product line." If you don't like Sony's product line and/or its compatibility with 3rd party products, don't buy into it. I don't. The only Sony products I own are a VHS VCR and a computer monitor. Both have held up nicely on the 3rd party compatibility front.

RE: Personally, I still don't like Sony products too much
abhinay @ 10/20/2003 10:06:18 PM #
>>So, if I get you right, using your market position to
>>force adoption of other technology is an abuse of
>>monopoly power?

Bingo. You got it right there.

>>You mean, say, like changing their PDA connectors and
>>bases every few releases, in order to 'stick it' to
>>third-party device developers and advance sales of
>>their own peripherals?
Actually, if you noticed, each Product Family has a different connector. All the UX's use the same connectors, and all the NX's use the same connectors etc... Seriously, I wonder where you got your definition of monopoly from. Even if they do change it, its usually compatible with a slew of accessories they release. Ok... so Third Party Accessories aren't that popular with the Sony Devices, thats because sony makes so many of their own. Seriously, if you find it too expensive, DONT BUY IT. As simple as that. Stop whining about their monopolistic tactics.

>>Or do you mean all the laptops, mice, photo frames, >>cameras, PDAs and camcorders that are available from >>Sony with only a Memory Stick slot?
If you has been a bit more aware, you would find a Compact Flash slot on the New Sony Cybershot DSC 828. There goes your trend. Even if they do use only the Memory Stick slot, I dont see anything wrong with that. You dont like Sony, go get something else. And about MemStick slots on the laptops... its a matter of convienience. Most laptops dont ship with inbuilt card readers, Mem Stick or otherwise. The Memory Stick was from the beginning meant to facilitate interoperability between sony products. No one cried that it wasn't used on a palm, or that Sony didn't use the SD Format. Think about it... the Memory Stick came first, and Sony had inversted so much in it that moving to the SD Format after it was released would have been detrimental to their own products released on the Memory Stick Format

>>Or do you mean trying to use their music division to
>>support cramming ATRAC copy protection down >>consumers' throats?

If you noticed, there is no "standard" for music. MP3 is not copy protected, and no one ships music in MP3 format anymore, because its a dying one. ATRAC3, AAC, etc are used by different companies, and they each have a means of protection. I dont see you point here at all.

RE: Personally, I still don't like Sony products too much
The Ugly Truth @ 10/20/2003 11:05:50 PM #
I should also point out that Sony is somewhat an Electronics Monopoly at Japan and America, and Sony IMO should be regulated to give competitors a fair chance, just like Microsoft was deemed a Software Monopoly and needs to economically be placed under control.

Sony is as much a monopoly as Samsung, Phillips, Matsusihta, GM, Ford, Chrysler, VW, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc., etc. do you propose regulating those other companies as well?


Please point out where Sony is abusing its monopoly of any product(if it has one in the first place)

You mean, say, like changing their PDA connectors and bases every few releases, in order to 'stick it' to third-party device developers and advance sales of their own peripherals?

You mean like Palm does?

Or do you mean all the laptops, mice, photo frames, cameras, PDAs and camcorders that are available from Sony with only a Memory Stick slot?

Which they do in order to advertise that their consumer electronics are an integrated lineup. If you don't like their approach you can simply buy from their competitors.

Or do you mean trying to use their music division to support cramming ATRAC copy protection down consumers' throats?

So you expect Sony - who also is a major music company - shouldn't be concerned about copy protection?

The list could go on for weeks - You can attempt to weasel out of this by stating that 'Sony dosen't have a monopoly' - But that's cheap legalities, and while they may not be TECHNICALLY in violation, there is more than enough similarity in behavior to make comparisons between Microsoft and Sony not only reasonable, but unflattering as well.

Monopoly or not, it's still taking advantage of your customers, and it's still very nasty business practice.

Please go on. Nothing you've posted so far seems to support your position.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Personally, I still don't like Sony products too much
mikecane @ 10/21/2003 9:10:19 AM #
>>>Or do you mean trying to use their music division to support cramming ATRAC copy protection down consumers' throats?

Let's get something straight here. The first color hires CLIE to come to the US had MP3-playing built-in. This unit was first introed in Japan and only allowed ATRAC there (MP3 was later a free upgrade download). This is hardly shoving their system down people's throats!

Speaking of 'truth'.
orb2069 @ 10/22/2003 10:05:29 AM #
Ok... so Third Party Accessories aren't that popular with the Sony Devices, thats because sony makes so many of their own. Seriously, if you find it too expensive, DONT BUY IT. As simple as that. Stop whining about their monopolistic tactics.

At least somebody gets the point here - Even if what they're doing isen't technically a monopoly, they're engaging in monopoly-abuse tactics.

The really sad thing about Sony is that it's so close - The NX series was almost worth the insane prices they were asking for it, if it weren't for their stupid MemoryStick fetish. Sticking a CF slot on the back and just limiting it to memory was even more of an insult.

If you has been a bit more aware, you would find a Compact Flash slot on the New Sony Cybershot DSC 828. There goes your trend.

That, and the one-or-two Clie who actually sport (Partially or barely functional) CF slots against the ...How many? Forty? Sixty? MemoryStick embedded consumer devices that sony's released over the last few years seems to actually support my claim rather solidly.

The fact that Sony keeps failing in it's attempt to foist monopoly-style practices off on american consumers dosen't mean they aren't trying.

Let's get something straight here. The first color hires CLIE to come to the US had MP3-playing built-in. This unit was first introed in Japan and only allowed ATRAC there (MP3 was later a free upgrade download). This is hardly shoving their system down people's throats!

Actually, I was referring to MiniDisc, which still uses ATRAC, and was the format that Sony actually used their stable of artists to push on the public (How many non-Sony MD original releases were there?) - After Sony realized they weren't going to get away with the crap they pull in Japan -And that MP3-Based players were going to eat them alive- They came out with the NetMD system, which only made digital cross-converting from MP3 to ATRAC difficult instead of a minor audio engineering feat.

Thanks for proving my points further - Oh, and 'Ugly truth' - Pick a better handle for trolling - This one's WAY too obvious.



RE: Personally, I still don't like Sony products too much
mikecane @ 10/23/2003 6:17:44 PM #
>>>Actually, I was referring to MiniDisc, which still uses ATRAC, and was the format that Sony actually used their stable of artists to push on the public (How many non-Sony MD original releases were there?)

Eh. That's all part of "vertical integration." But I don't see Sony pushing a video standard for, say, Spiderman on software. (That's Microsoft's job!)

MiniDisc has its own stable of fans, and you risk upsetting a hornet's nest here. I'll just say that MD is not my thing, regardless of ATRAC, and I'd rather have an iPod-like device (which judging from how many people I see on the street *carrying* iPods, now seems to be the consensus).

Tangetially, it is interesting to note that several RCA "MP3 players" actually convert music into a proprietary file format. Be afraid!

Sony Ericsson P900

ardiri @ 10/21/2003 4:07:40 AM #
RE: Sony Ericsson P900
mikecane @ 10/21/2003 9:12:07 AM #
And apparently they've given it a *real* stylus this time too. I'll have to fondle this at J&R when it arrives.

Stumbling block: NO huge base of software like PalmOS.

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
ardiri @ 10/21/2003 1:43:49 PM #
> And apparently they've given it a *real* stylus this time too.

heh.. yeah, that was the first think i noticed. the last stylus (P800) was like a big tooth pick :) didn't know if i should clean my teeth or tap the screen.

> Stumbling block: NO huge base of software like PalmOS.

well, some developers (like myself) are trying to fix that :)


---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
PDAJah @ 10/21/2003 5:59:34 PM #
mikecane

QuickOffice hsa now been released for UIQ/P900/P800. Also Agendus has been ported for UIQ. Others will follow and very soon there will be good coverage on the s/w front for Symbian. Remember UIQ has only been with us for about a year and we are seeing lots of s/w already. Also, Pocketop has a driver for the P800/P900. For me, an ex-Plam user, I don't see much difference now for the s/w that I use. Opera is much better than Palm web browsers.

Jah

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
mikecane @ 10/21/2003 7:45:43 PM #
God Almighty, what the fek are they waiting for with Opera? I mean, isn't a bloody 400MHz StrongARM enough reason for them to port to PalmOS?! It's way overdue! You have my agreement in that it's the best damned pocket browser out there -- Sharp switching to Netfront for the Zaurus is just breathtakingly dumb.

Look, most people who already have an investment in PalmOS software simply are *not* going to pony up for Symbian versions of the same thing. That's just a waste of money, no matter how huge a discount the Symbian phone might currently have versus the Treo 600. People will wait for a cheaper PalmOS phone.

I know PalmOS, I know the software I use, and I like them just fine. Symbian just can't match it -- even if *every* damned PalmOS program was ported to Symbian, it'd still be on a PHONE, for God's sake! I want a *PDA*. A Treo 600 would be backup for my PDA, not a replacement. As good as the 160x160 (and probably future 320x320) screen is, it just can't match a 320x480 screen. Nor can any current Symbian phone match that.

And, hey, are there keyboards to attach to those Symbian phones? (I'm not being snide: I don't know if there are any.)

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
Token User @ 10/21/2003 8:33:20 PM #
The Symbian phones have a third party T9 style data input method available. Another example of the device coming from the phone side of the digital convergence divide.

From a Palm perspective, I was looking into a similar input method for the Kyocera phones 7135, but after looking into Tegic's patent for T9 (Tegic - now owned by AOL Time Warner Bugs Bunny International Incorporated) decided the headaches would not be worth the effort.

BTW - Rather than the personal sledging that has occurred elsewhere in this thread, this discussion almost shows some sort of happy concensus :)

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
Foo Fighter @ 10/21/2003 8:43:38 PM #
There may be fundamental reasons why Opera has not been ported to PalmOS. I would bet money the platform isn't yet robust enough to easily port such an application, whereas Symbian and QT Linux are more malleable, and familiar to developers. Hopefully OS6 will open a few doors in that department. I've seen "Micro Opera" in action, and it is damn nice. Match that up with a 320x480 (in landscape mode) and you have mobile wireless nirvana! 8^)

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com
RE: Sony Ericsson P900
ardiri @ 10/22/2003 2:14:38 AM #
> God Almighty, what the fek are they waiting for with Opera?
> I mean, isn't a bloody 400MHz StrongARM enough reason for them to port to PalmOS?!

maybe its time you became familiar with palm and how you developer for it. Symbian (UIQ) has got MAME as well! it just doesn't exist on Palm yet. and, there is a HUGE reason for this; the operating system is still bound by its limitations that existed back with PalmOS 1.0. many of these limitations will go away with OS6.

its the same reason why Doom was ported to PPC, Symbian - and, not Palm :) PalmOS is a very 'unique' operating system with a fairly small learning curve if you are doing things from scratch - but, if your porting? oh boy..

> Look, most people who already have an investment in PalmOS software simply
> are *not* going to pony up for Symbian versions of the same thing.
> That's just a waste of money.

tell me exactly why it is a waste of money? Symbian sells pretty darm well over in europe; or, are you just referring to the USA market as your analysis basis? the thing is, it doesn't take much work to convert your application to Symbian. Symbian versions sell much more than Smartphone versions - thats something we have seen. and, within europe, we sell just as many symbian versions of software than we do palm. scary.. yes, reality... yes.

> I know PalmOS, I know the software I use, and I like them just fine.
> Symbian just can't match it -- even if *every* damned PalmOS program
> was ported to Symbian, it'd still be on a PHONE, for God's sake!

oh.. now you see the whole argument.. you want a PDA.. not a PHONE - so, stay with palm. people want a PHONE, not a PDA.. and, they will get Symbian devices.. it all depends on what you want from the unit. i said this before and i will say it again.

> And, hey, are there keyboards to attach to those Symbian phones?

yes, a number of keyboards exist, and, many in development.

what would be really cool is that keyboard developers dont use connectors; but, bluetooth or 802.11b like this keyboard does:

http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2012.html


---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
ardiri @ 10/22/2003 2:23:34 AM #
personal note:

>> remind mike about his posts when he falls in love with the P900

once upon a time i was very closed minded too - then, one day - it hit me.. so many devices; so many people's needs/wants.. sure, they dont meet my requirements; but, that doesn't mean the device sucks. every person for their own.

when you play with the P900 - you will hate it at first (because it doesn't feel natural, being a Palm user). then, you'll start getting used to it.. you'll start to like the things you can do with it.. things you get in a multitasking environment - the software base will grow..

then, where are you? palm vs' symbian = 50/50?

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

Symbian Vs. Palm: the gloves are about to come offf...
The Ugly Truth @ 10/22/2003 4:11:18 AM #
And apparently they've given it a *real* stylus this time too. I'll have to fondle this at J&R when it arrives.

Stumbling block: NO huge base of software like PalmOS.

The stylus isn't actually that big, but it's ok considering the size of the phone.

Remember, approximately 90% of Palm apps are detritus. If Symbian comes out with 100 high quality apps covering the major app categories, they'll be able to do most of the things that most people are looking for.


QuickOffice hsa now been released for UIQ/P900/P800. Also Agendus has been ported for UIQ. Others will follow and very soon there will be good coverage on the s/w front for Symbian. Remember UIQ has only been with us for about a year and we are seeing lots of s/w already. Also, Pocketop has a driver for the P800/P900. For me, an ex-Plam user, I don't see much difference now for the s/w that I use. Opera is much better than Palm web browsers.

Jah

This is precisely why Palm needs to stop acting so blasé about Symbian and kill it before it gets a foothold in the USA. Symbian may do to Palm what PPC has been unable to achieve. If Symbian is already covering the things that some experienced Palm users want, will anything differentiate the two platforms in the near future? Port a few titles like DateBk 5, HandyShopper, Ultrasoft Money and DiddleBug to Symbian and even I - after six years of using Palms - would take a serious look at switching (if the hardware and the price is right). New users unfamiliar with Palm's software will be even easier to get on board the Symbian train. Right now, Palm has an overwhelming advantage called the Palm OS software library. But this is an advantage obvious only to that small subset of people already familiar with Palm OS. Palm should be out hammering this message home every chance they get. Before that advantage evaporates faster than the vapors of an SDIO card/driver.

Annual cell phone sales are approximately 400 million, while PDA sales are approximately 10 million units/year. Simple math says there's a lot more money available to be made if you're selling phones than PDAs - whether you're a hardware or a software company. Give Nokia/Symbian another two year's worth of unopposed OS revisions and software catalog expansion and you can potentially kiss Palm goodbye. Anyone that's used a Treo 600 and P800/900 can understand why these devices can either already or very soon obviate the need for stand alone PDAs for most (not all) users. And if Palm can't compete in phones, they won't have any market at all once the stand alone PDA market dries up.


God Almighty, what the fek are they waiting for with Opera?

You know what the conspiracy theorists are saying...


Look, most people who already have an investment in PalmOS software simply are *not* going to pony up for Symbian versions of the same thing. That's just a waste of money, no matter how huge a discount the Symbian phone might currently have versus the Treo 600. People will wait for a cheaper PalmOS phone.

- The vast majority of cell phone buyers don't have Palms, so they don't know/don't care about Palm software. Others that have used Palms may find making the switch pretty easy if a) there's a "killer app" - like Opera - only available on Symbian; b) many of their favorite Palm apps are available (at a discount) for Symbian, c) the hardware running Symbian is free/almost free; d) the Symbian hardware designs are slick/"cool".

I know PalmOS, I know the software I use, and I like them just fine. Symbian just can't match it -- even if *every* damned PalmOS program was ported to Symbian, it'd still be on a PHONE, for God's sake! I want a *PDA*.

While others will agree with you, this will probably soon be the minority opinion. At least you will be able to buy the new CLIE UX model next year if you still want a stand alone PDA. (I'm assuming you will eventually stop playing with every new model for hours in the stores and finally put down real some cash to replace that Commodore Vic 20 you're using...)


Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
PDAJah @ 10/23/2003 12:51:56 PM #
The Ugly Truth

I am an avid Symbian user, but I would not want Palm to be "killed off" by Symbian. The real enemy is MS. Both Palm and Symbian make quality s/w. My Symbian machines crash a lost less than my XP PC! Competition is healthy and means we consumers get better products at lower prices. Look how much XP and MS Office cost compared to PDA/Smartphone s/w products!. I could buy a good PDA for the price of XP.

Jah

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
mikecane @ 10/23/2003 2:01:02 PM #
>>>maybe its time you became familiar with palm and how you developer for it. Symbian (UIQ) has got MAME as well! it just doesn't exist on Palm yet. and, there is a HUGE reason for this; the operating system is still bound by its limitations that existed back with PalmOS 1.0. many of these limitations will go away with OS6.

>>>its the same reason why Doom was ported to PPC, Symbian - and, not Palm :) PalmOS is a very 'unique' operating system with a fairly small learning curve if you are doing things from scratch - but, if your porting? oh boy..

Ahhhh! Thanks for that info. I did not know. I guess OS6 will bring all sorts of goodies from other platforms. At least I hope so...

>>>tell me exactly why it is a waste of money? Symbian sells pretty darm well over in europe; or, are you just referring to the USA market as your analysis basis?

Of course my view is UScentric. Everytone touts Symbian now, but it was a laughing stock for years. And how the hell the Brits missed putting EPOC in a Palm-like form factor is just beyond bizarre.

>>>the thing is, it doesn't take much work to convert your application to Symbian. Symbian versions sell much more than Smartphone versions - thats something we have seen. and, within europe, we sell just as many symbian versions of software than we do palm. scary.. yes, reality... yes.

Is there a Master List of Symbian (smartphone) software? Or must I, groan, search through Handango?

And TUT, I do not have a VIC 20. I long ago upgraded to a C64. Damn, that EasyScript is sweet...

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
The Ugly Truth @ 10/24/2003 10:16:02 AM #
I am an avid Symbian user, but I would not want Palm to be "killed off" by Symbian.

At this point, the only thing that will prevent Palm from becoming a "fringe" player by 2005 is if Sony aggressively pushes PalmOS into the smartphone market place. It bears repeating: only around 10,000,000 PDAs are sold each year, but 400,000,000 cell phones are sold annually. If even 25% of cellphones had PalmOS on them that's still 100,000,000/year. Those kind of numbers are what would grow and sustain the (now-stagnant) "Palm Economy". Palm's planners seem to have been oblivious to outside threats for years.


- King T.U.T.
Vice President, Plam Inc., Product Placement
CCO, Plam Inc.
Ph.D. Spin Technology


Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
The Ugly Truth @ 10/24/2003 10:27:59 AM #
And how the hell the Brits missed putting EPOC in a Palm-like form factor is just beyond bizarre.

PSION was - and in some ways still is - ahead of its time. A PSION in a Palm III form factor should have been a huge success. I was thinking about buying one of the later PSION models, but the new CLIE UX series completely destroys PSION in terms of the all-important (for me) form factor. I can see myself actually carrying around a UX-50, but the PSION keyboards made them a bit too bulky.


And TUT, I do not have a VIC 20. I long ago upgraded to a C64.

Congratulations. But it must be a pain having to constantly whip out your 14 inch.. TV whenever you need to look something up.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
Foo Fighter @ 10/24/2003 11:01:08 PM #
P900 video posted on ZDNET:

http://www.zdnet.com/?tag=zdnn.header1

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
hoplites @ 10/26/2003 8:33:46 AM #
Symbian challange:
-Desktop sync app is weak.
-App library is still small.

Strength:
-Brand recognition
-Price (SE and Nokia will chew up anybody in phone business)
-marketing/retail channel

<3 <3 <3 Ska

RE: Sony Ericsson P900
The Ugly Truth @ 10/27/2003 3:21:57 PM #
Symbian challange:
-Desktop sync app is weak.
-App library is still small.

Strength:
-Brand recognition
-Price (SE and Nokia will chew up anybody in phone business)
-marketing/retail channel

That app library is starting to grow. As hard as it is developing for Symbian right now, I think a lot of companies are starting to realize they can potentially make a killing selling Symbian versions of their Palm apps. The "Palm Economy" was a pipe dream for most developers, but given how many Symbian smartphones will soon be on the market, the "Symbian Economy" may be a real source of income for Joe and Jane Developer.



Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

P800 v P900 pics

mikecane @ 10/23/2003 2:20:21 PM #

Foo gets goosebumps

mikecane @ 10/23/2003 6:15:54 PM #
RE: Foo gets goosebumps
Foo Fighter @ 10/23/2003 11:17:00 PM #
Cold chills have been running down my spine all day. Now I know why. Verizon should borrow Apple's current front page slogan: Hell has frozen over. Yes, Verizon...I can hear you now!

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com
RE: Foo gets goosebumps
Foo Fighter @ 10/23/2003 11:20:31 PM #
LOL! I love this quote:

"Before bringing any device to market, it must be integrated with the Verizon Wireless product suite and passed through rigorous network quality testing.

Ha! Yeah, that should take about 12-24 months.

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

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