Sony Ericsson Denies PalmSource Talks

hmm.. seems i did beat you by 3 and a half minutes! but, i just took too damn long to write my reply :P

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Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

I would love to see a triband GSM/GPRS enabled Clie ...
Would that be a Sony or a SE product?

Or (in the spirit of Ford/Mazda, GMC/Chevrolet, Nissan/Infiniti, Honda/Acura) would it come out as "Sony Clie PEG-GSM70Q" vs "Sony Ericsson P2000"?

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

I swear the commenting system on PIC is based on the time you hit "Reply" on the article and not "Post comment" on the comment authoring screen.

I've seen posts appear out of order before. One day, I'm going to wait until a story is posted, hit reply and wait half a day. Then I'll post the annoying "first post" post and shoot to the top. If I'm wrong, I'll look like an idiot.

...

Upon further inspection, I may be right. The comment time is embedded on the authoring screen, allowing for my loophole:

Some clever HTML skills may allow me to first post this thread. =)

-- Fammy

<input TYPE="HIDDEN" NAME="Date" VALUE="10/17/2003 2:59:20 PM">

-- Fammy

Wouldn't it be more sensible to clear old stock by slashing prices and be open with new products? Car manufacturers do that all the time. eg VW made no secret of their 2004 new golf, yet people are flogging to showrooms to buy their reduced price out-going model.

What do they gain by being secretive? The gadget freaks will wait for new model; the budget buyer will also wait hoping a new model will bring the old model price down. Result - everyone waits until new model arrives. So why no reduce price now, so at least the budget buyer buys now.

The reason Palm is talking up Smartphones in Europe is that over here Smartphones are cheaper than the equivalent Handheld without the phone because of contract subsidies. Why spend £400 on a Palm when you can get a symbian device with phone for £200?

The Treo 600 coming in so cheap is a good move by Palm/Handspring. I am over the moon with mine, and the great software package that Orange and Handspring have included. The only downside to my Treo is that it won't play Master Thief .. even the version that is supposed to work on the Treo 600. But I am sure the engine will be fixed soon ... hint ... hint.

As for Sony doing a PalmOS phone, I would snap it up, but a Clie clamshell phone would be so much cheaper than a non phone version that Sony may eat into their own PDA market. There are marketing as well as practical reasons why smartphones are still behind the curve compared to PalmOS stand alones. Why do you think Microsoft has completely different versions of its OS?

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

there is a version that is supposed to work on the Treo 600? first i heard of that :) the ARM code within the master theif game only works with 320x320 rendering; and, the Treo 600 is 160x160 :( its on the every long to-do list :)

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Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

Please leave my name out of your posts. It does not flatter me. It annoys me.

Works for cars. The Osborne Computer was a high flying company which had a top selling PC, so they figured they could do the same. They were bankrupt within the year.

So now, all successful tech companies are very careful in controlling how they release information about future products in order to manage cash flow.

I think you carried away the wrong message - I think the whole business card thing is more demonstrative of design philopsophy/ergonomics than it is of a specific technology - You've said yourself (elsewhere in this thread, IIRC) that you don't use PIM apps, and "...to me, a handheld is a glorified gameboy."

Try using the PIMs and other PDA functions for a few months, and you might have a better understanding of why PalmOS has managed to keep the lion's share of the market so long - And what Nagel's talking about when he says he dosen't consider Symbian a serious competitor.

I have used the Nokia 3650 in UK. It has quite possibly one of the worst user interfaces I have seen on a device. When Nagel says he doesn't view Symbian as a serious competitor I completely agree - at least as a threat to the existing Palm user base. The only threat might be loosing share to new users who have never used a Palm OS handheld (users coming from a cel phone with an even worse interface than the 3650). Even if PalmSource viewed that as a threat, what incentive would they have to say so?

Prior to using the Nokia 3650, I spent a lot of time with the Treo 600. It truly is a brilliant design. It destroys the Nokia 3650 more than 10-fold in terms of usability. There are a lot of really subtle things that you don't notice on the Treo until you use something else.

Some examples:

-Putting in an SD/MMC card to store pictures:
On Treo: insert card into top of device
On 3650: Remove back cover, remove battery, install card with annoying bracket clip, replace cover and battery, power on and wait for phone reg.

-Setting phone to Vibrate
On Treo: flip switch on top of phone
On 3650: go into menu, go several levels deep, select silent profile (assuming this exists), exit menu

These are just two examples of many.

Question: What devices are using the Palm OS Telephony API? Tungsten-W? I don't think Treo Telephony API is the standard Palm OS Telephony API.

they are two different user interfaces, and, the Nokia 3650 uses Series 60 - which is, as you say "SUCKY".

series 60:
http://www.wirelessdevnet.com/symbian/rb_24.html

uiq 2.0:
http://www.symbian.com/news/2002/uiq-feat.html

the sony ericsson P800 uses UIQ 2.0 - and, that is a much more 'mature' user interface for the user. i have both the nokia 3650 and the P800; i prefer the P800. the 'benefits' which most users are posting about the 'Palm' smartphones is that some times, (most of the time), they have put little usability shortcuts on the devices (Treo 600: mute, all: single key for sending business card). these hacks are only at face value - i am sure the symbian developer community could also develop hacks for the operating system to get the same functionality; hence why i dont see it so 'important'.

but, you are right - the 'out of the box' experience is important for most people. most people want a phone, and, wouldn't mind PIM functionality; so, they buy a unit like P800 (most important = phone). other users want PIM and wouldn't mind a phone - so, they probably will go with a well established device such as the Treo 600. different flavours for different people. there is no true single device for everyone.

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Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

This statement is bang on, and something many armchair analysts miss when they are pushing their own biases. Sure, the P800 and Treo 600 are both convergent devices, but they are coming from different directions, and still target different markets, despite the fact that their feature sets are becoming similar.

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

Question: With Sony's expertise in Palm why did SE use Symbian for the P800?

Question: Would Palm like to se 1 million units (YES 1 million) like SE has managed to sell with the P800?

The answer to all the questions is to do with the maturity of Symbian as an OS for smartphones. Palm, unfortunatley, do not have a pedigree in cellphones and therefore Palm OS and Palm devices have been weak on communications. Symbian was developed by cellphone companies!

Jah

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

being in Sweden, i have some fairly good contacts at Sony Ericsson; and, nothing along the lines of PalmOS licensing is at all on their table. hell, if it was, i am sure they would be talking to me about PalmOS stuff; not Symbian work. knowing how Nagel thinks; it is most likely a wish list item he has conjoured up in his head that he just accidently blabbed out loud.

Sony Ericsson and Nokia will continue to pursue the Symbian OS; the latest Nokia phone 6600 is in fact a Symbian 7.0 phone; the same operating system that the P800 will run on. the reality is that PalmOS was not built for phone use. the P900 is a dream compared to the P800; as one of the lucky ones to actually have had the ability to hold one of those phones.

the Handspring Treo 600 required just over one year to tweak/hack to the OS5 code base to get an acceptable 'phone environment' - i have a Treo 600 and, i am quite surprised at how well it fits together. however, it would have really made a statement with 320x320 and built in bluetooth.

PalmSource's biggest problem is that they think the rest of the world is like the USA. just talk to people high up in PalmSource within europe; and they shake their heads at some of the visions of their american counter parts. Symbian, like Pocket PC is here to stay; PalmSource needs to accept that.

Nokia and Sony Ericsson rule the telecommunications market; each with their own special touches. Nokia is going for the mass market with their smartphones; Sony Ericsson is pushing the enterprise market; however, have a very good competitive edge with the mass market phones by shipping with mophun(tm) - a virtual machine focused on gaming (also, swedish design).

the fact that i live in Sweden does have some advantages :)

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Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

I've been told otherwise. We'll see soon enough. And always remember your NDAs.

Sony Ericsson and Nokia will continue to pursue the Symbian OS; the latest Nokia phone 6600 is in fact a Symbian 7.0 phone; the same operating system that the P800 (sic) will run on. the reality is that PalmOS was not built for phone use. the P900 is a dream compared to the P800; as one of the lucky ones to actually have had the ability to hold one of those phones.

The P900 is a slick piece of work (looks like the toothpick stylus design was borrowed from a CLIE, though...) but Symbian has been slow to take off in the US for a number of reasons. Even if/when the P900 (and the new chunky clamshell Z600) make it to the US, I doubt Sony Ericsson will be as well received as in Euroland.

the Handspring Treo 600 required just over one year to tweak/hack to the OS5 code base to get an acceptable 'phone environment' - i have a Treo 600 and, i am quite surprised at how well it fits together. however, it would have really made a statement with 320x320 and built in bluetooth.

The Treo 600 is quite impressive. Now that Handspring has laid the foundation, Palm OS's future in phones is irrefutable. While I don't see much need for 320 x 320 in it, I agree they should have squeezed in Bluetooth (to allow for wireless headsets). Then again, Bluetoothless is dead (in the US and therefore, the universe).

PalmSource's biggest problem is that they think the rest of the world is like the USA.

That's an American trait that almost killed the US auto industry as well.

Nokia and Sony Ericsson rule the telecommunications market; each with their own special touches. Nokia is going for the mass market with their smartphones; Sony Ericsson is pushing the enterprise market; however, have a very good competitive edge with the mass market phones by shipping with mophun(tm) - a virtual machine focused on gaming (also, swedish design).

While Mophun may eventually take off, why bother with yet another platform when we already have a mature Palm OS library of games?

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

what exactly do you mean by 'environments'?

in my previous posts, i have stated that Palm, Pocket PC and Symbian will eventually share the market 33/33/33 - and, i strongly believe this; mainly because i am not blinded like many american companies are. being in an independent area of the world where it is possible to see nearly all the options available, and, have the opportunity to work with the various companies behind them - we (mobilewizardry) are making the appropriate steps in our development plans; you have to support every platform.

> You mentioned the Palm OS had to be hacked and tweaked to get there.
> Well it is here now, there are not huge leaps now required.

the point is, it isn't there for *every* licensee to use. Handspring own it. i guess, the merger means PalmOne will probably get those changes. it took a LONG time to actually get the Treo 600 in a workable state; which, i must say - is awesome. i just dont like the screen (its dim, and, lo-res) but, its form factor, battery life and usability are great.

i love my Treo 600 in regards to it as a device; it works well as a smartphone - however, it does have some problems; but, nothing that would stop it from being a phone. the Treo 600 can make a serious dent to the Sony Ericsson market - as long as they keep the device cheap; and, market it correctly. the other problem is that it will be very hard to get a Treo 600 that isn't SIM locked - your only option is to go with Orange or a provider that can subsidise it.

being in Sweden, you cannot get the Treo 600 right now. i probably have one of the only Treo 600's in sweden. w00t.

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Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

lets clarify this, i regularly use the following mobile phones:

- Palm Tungsten|W (Palm)
- Treo 600 (Palm)
- Nokia 3650 (Symbian)
- Sony Ericsson P800 (Symbian)
- Sony Ericsson T200 (proprietary)
- Sony Ericsson T66 (proprietary)

depending on how much battery life i have in each device; i also have two mobile phone numbers (work + personal). do you know what my favourite phone is? the T66 and T200 :) they are phones.. just phones.. what else would i want a phone for?

GPRS over the P800 and Treo 600 is very nice. my Nokia 3650 just refuses to work over GPRS - i have to admit that the Treo 600 set itself up automatically; a definate plus.

in addition, for the record, i might as well justify why i have such opinions about 'handheld' devices in general - mainly because i have a serious stash of devices. you can see for yourself here:

http://www.ardiri.com/pdas.jpg

and, i can honestly tell you, in the five years i have owned a handheld device (first was Palm III) - i have NEVER used it to store phone numbers, addresses etc etc. i am a post-it note guy, and, rely on my laptop for everything i do. :)

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Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

As a user I found Palm OS 4.1 (clie nr70) very difficult to use. No multi-tasking and memort card management (applications) just did not seem consistent. On the other hand, the P800 (and my experience with Psion 5, Ericsson MC218, etc) is that the OS treats main memory and memory cards in a seamless manner. Now I use these are examples of the lack of maturity of Palm. Also, some apps were not designed for the Clie NR70's screen etc. Now have things changed with Palm 5? And why has it taken Palm so long to design an OS with communications built-in. For example, on the Clie I found it hard to find a good SMS app. Would be keen to hear you thoughts.

Jah

it comes down to what you want to use the device for; the clie nr70 was obviously not the device you should have chosen; as, it doesn't target what you want from the handheld

> No multi-tasking and memort card management (applications) just
> did not seem consistent.

multi-tasking is a big no-no, you know, zen of palm.

as for card management; it can be consistent - however, the manner in which developers have implemented card support has been sporatic. the developer community hasnät been consistent; maybe too early to market? lack of support from the operating system providers?

> Now I use these are examples of the lack of maturity of Palm.

i can think of many use-cases where palm would be better than other handheld operating systems; especially when you want single tasking :)

> Also, some apps were not designed for the Clie NR70's screen etc.
> Now have things changed with Palm 5?

developer issue - not device. OS5 introduced a standard 'user interface' library; and, its changing once again to handle the virtual grafitti/slider mechanisms; its become a serious nightmare for developers; many have tons and tons of code just for Sony, Handera, Palm, and Tapwave.

> And why has it taken Palm so long to design an OS with
> communications built-in.

communications has been there for a while - palmos 3.0 introduced infrared, bluetooth came later; and, there is now even 802.11b in the Palm devices :)

your definition of communications is different - you want SMS/email etc; well, Palm isn't an operating system designed for that. its like trying to unscrew a screw in the wall with a hammer.

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Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

Palm buys Handspring.

PalmOS announces a Phone Edition of OS 5.

I imagine that the new Phone Edition OS 5 will be a lot like the Handspring Version. For the sake of every license.

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

Christ. >facial expression of disgust<