Comments on: palmOne Tungsten C Update 3.0

Yes, you are right, maybe having DocToGo 6 in an update is asking too much. How about the improved PIMs that are basically in every PalmOne device but the C?

Updating the PIM apps on the T|C would require that you also update your Palm Desktop setup, and it could intefere with users that are using conduits or other applications that aren't compatible with the new PIM data formats.

--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog

Yes, I meant upgrade from DocToGo 5 to 6...

Mountain--Have you tried a Hard Reset before? Have you ever renamed the "Backup" Folder to a name such as Pilot or et. al. before?

If the Fatal Error persists, you might have to do a hard reset, go to your username (6-char truncated version, for example, vesther is vesthe), rename the Backup Folder to Pilot or Tungsten C, or whatever you want to do, have all PIMs set at "Desktop overwrites Handheld" (Mac overwrites Handheld in Macintosh), do a HotSync, and install one PDA program at a time, to see which one is the offending software.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

Dear MountainLogic,

I have had this problem before with older palm os pda's, and I would say that the ROM is corrupt. I would suggest trying a system reset.(hit the reset button while holding the up button). If that doesn't work, you should call palmOne.

OK, I've got things back to life. Thanks for all the suggestions. I had tried several hard resets with no joy so I did another hard reset, and sync'ed with an old host PC with older back-up images. I then resync'ed with my new (main) host PC and got everything back. Some apps showed up as catagory unfiled and I had to return them to their categories by hand, but every thing else came out fine.

I think the problem may have been the sync function of one of the apps. Things seemed to fail right at the end of restore in a non-deterministic way. Sometime all the restored apps would have their cat's right and sometimes some of them would be unfiled.

Palm does deserve kudos for providing updates for a product this long on the market, thanks Palm One/Source.

I've never seen a welfare check in my life, and I think you suck.

;-)

Yes this is just akin to a Microsoft Service Pack for Windows (without of the fancy new features) which brings me to my point:

PalmOne could get major kudos from the community for actually taking the bold move of ADDING features or updating ROM apps for once! I'll say again that PalmOne should institute a policy of ALL Tungsten models receiving at least one "guaranteed" mid-life OS/app update direct & supported by PalmOne. That would do some damage control to keep peple from defecting to Zires or PPC and show that, for the first time in years, PalmOne cares about their customers.

Something I find interesting are the supposed "MMC driver enhancement", first introduced in 2.0 C Update. I'd like to know if this is just for MMC or for SD as well and if they are bug-related or speed-related in nature. I had 2.0 on my T|C for a while before I sold it and I never noticed any appreciable difference.

At least the TC is getting an update, unlike the folks using WM SE which will never be updated. Or worse yet, those Clie owners which are at a complete dead end.

Hey maybe owners should just be glad if it isn't disintegrating or the paint isn't coming off!

I have to agree with Rhino because the TC is such a potent machine, and it appears that PalmOne wants to make this device age well, it's pretty much a production workhorse for business. One day, though, I will need to see more PalmOne devices with Wi-Fi, but that depends how much willing PalmOne is willing to commit itself to the IEEE 802.11 standard.

For now, the Tungsten C remains the best handheld PalmOne has to offer, in spite of the Monaural flaw.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

You call it a flaw, I call it a premature embrace of Voice-Over-IP.

Well, you're of the creative type, aren't you?

I'd bet good money, a VoIP partner failed to deliver on the goods when the TC was launched.

Any solid reason to think that, and to explain why that VoIP app has not been released afterwards?
Surely a VoIP app could be used on different ways; as you surely know, there are some standards. If some partner failed to deliver, surely some other would be interested to fill the gap. Don't you think so?

Meanwhile, I'd keep that "monoaural flaw" thing. After all, you talked not long ago about PocketPCs and their "hard disk emulation flaw", didn't you?

The newer 802.11g has a good packet priority for streaming media

Huh?? "Packet priority for streaming media" on 802.11g? I guess you're referring to the QoS enhancements on 802.11e...

that will allow this to happen without pops and clicks. Unfortunately, lower power versions of these chips are just starting to sample now.

So, even if low power 802.11e chipsets were appearing now (and I guess they aren't), what would that have to do with the subject at hand? (you know, the monoaural flaw of the T-C)

My guess is that PalmOne was stuck with a 2.5 mm connector in the case and no VoIP client to really exploit it. Thus, it was simply rebranded "monoaural"
and left that.

So, customers, stop saying "the T-C is monoaural"; it's in fact a powerful VoIP device! (pity it's crippled, so to the untrained eye and underanged imagination it can look like a monoaural PDA)

Still, I wonder how (supposed) VoIP functionality would justify the lack of stereo audio... To me, usefulness of stereo audio is kind of evident, but (supposed) VoIP looks a bit more like a niche.

Well, live to learn. To learn from the Rhino, that is.

Winter, I must have gotten under your skin hard to get you like this.

As a matter of fact, yes, you have. I have this tendency to get uneasy with people that publish their opinions / beliefs as facts and, when "challenged" to back their claims, they can only appeal to authority - being authority themselves, of course (and of course an uncertifiable authority). At the very least they typically claim some secret and personal info source.

It's even funnier when said people demonstrate that they're less than proficient with the things they're talking about. Like when they unprovokedly talk about QoS on 802.11g (wrong!), or laugh about TSRs on PocketPCs while defending Palm OS (wrong!). Still, they claim they're industry insiders, and / or "professionals" in charge of lots of things, and (still better) that allows them to say funnies like "everybody else is a loser". Wow.

I just got a private email and I can tell you that my guess was right.

See what was I talking about?

Well, let's believe that you have some private info source. Would you please ask him/her how stereo audio hardware would be supposed to interfere with VoIP capabilities?
And why there is no Palm branded VoIP software (as you hinted) now anyway? Do you mean that there is anything in the hardware stopping it?
The T3 seems to be capable of duplex audio (you surely know what is that, huh?). It should be perfectly useable for VoIP, don't you think so? (if Bluetooth bandwidth / latency allows). We only need the software. So, if there was some Palm-branded VoIP software for the T-C, why not release it for every VoIP-capable Palm?

The Zaurus does have VoIP software (by third parties). Do you mean that its hardware was specially designed for that?

I'd bet that any Linux PDA is able to use some kind of VoIP (as there are some options for Linux). You only need sound in, sound out, network connection and a beefy enough processor - and surely not that beefy in fact.

Finally, not even the form factor of the audio jack looks like an excuse, since some PocketPCs sport a single 3.5mm jack with stereo audio AND mic.

So, PLEASE: what's the relationship you're trying to make between the monoaural audio on the T-C and its VoIP capabilities?

Oh, and your guess is wrong. :D

Winter, the major flaw you have is using your immense technical ability way too much into making a product work and then assuming everyone else can do the same.

While all of your technical arguments are correct, the problem is none of that stuff sells outside the hacker/geek/scifi-convention/computer/newsgroup/dungeons-&-dragon /desperately-needs-to-get-laid community. In marketing demographics, you and your like is called the "freaks and geeks" crowd. It represents less then 10% of all consumer electronic sales and sadly, 90% of most Internet newsgroup posts.

To the retail crowd, a 3.5 mm connector is for stereo headsets. The 2.5 mm connector is for cell phones. That is how the market has shaken it out wether you like it or not.

Thus, you see a PDA with a 2.5 mm connector, it says cell phone and thus voice over IP to the mass market. If you try to push a PDA with a 3.5 mm connector and say it is voice over IP, most of the market will go "I can't plug my headset into it." and they won't buy it.

Dumb? Well there are people out there with lives that are not into finguring out ever piece of technology out there to impress the turbo geeks. Some us like times on the beach, going clubbing and other social activities.

In summary, take your hacks, your OS patchs and custom cables and try to sell it where you can justify your hardware tool up. Guess what? You can't! Welcome to some of the real world.

>I'm sorry, but I can only say that it's SUCH A LAME,
> STUPID EXCUSE.

Go into any retail consumer store and talk to the half trained sales guy. He will go "cell phone connector" and "stereo connector" and only go by its size to make a quick sales decision. Lame? That is your opintion. However, that perception I stated makes more sales than anything techies like you can do.

I will say it again, you spend way too much time with the technology around you and not around most people who are using it. The end users of consumer PDAs are barely using this stuff to all their features. They also have no desire to dive into it.

This is why the low end Zires are the best selling Palm OS products of all time. While the turbo geeks bitch that buttons are missing to play games (if you want to talk about lame, that is) it has sold in the millions. Not to mention first time Zire owners are more fun dates than most people that post here.

Every product line has their hardcore users. However, they are always a minority that unfortunately don't have much money most of the time to back up their big mouth. Why they don't have the cash? Well that is a deep question you need to ask yourself. You many not like the answer if you can confront it at all.

To state it again:

2.5 mm = cell phone connector (two way)
3.5 mm = stereo headset connector (one way)

Yes there are technical exceptions but that is how the public makes product purchase decisions right now.

>And knowing that some PocketPCs offer 3.5mm jacks
>with stereo+mic make the T-C's jack still dumber.

In fact, that 3.5mm jack is one problem with the PPC that is hurting its sales. Putting that into a device makes it a bad mass market item for VoIP. In fact, the PPC is selling so poorly, they are moving their connector and packaging decisions to the "freaks and geeks" crowd hoping it will move mainstream like it did with PCs. This model has shown not to work in the consumer electronics field to due the lack of product usage time.

>
>As a side note, since you admit that my technical
>arguments are all correct, would you please ask your
>private info source (that one that confirmed your
>guess) to elaborate on those early VoIP issues that
>didn't work out when the hardware was too far along in
>manufacturing? Because it sounds quite bullsh1ttish,
>you know.

I keep on wondering why I keep on arguing with you. I've come to the conclusion that some of the most inflexable, single minded types in this industry are often the indie developers themselves that are sitting on a cash cow that are unwilling to change. Worst, they embrase this technical diversity so they are needed to sort out problems created buy a lack of evident functionality of a product by a consumer.

If anything Winter, you have become almost the difinitive hardcore techie that cannot effectively communicate to the masses cause you are so immersed in technology. Do you use it to hide from something?

I honestly think I hit on something of yourself that you can't deal with and now you are going after me irrationaly. Shame. Please, don't kill the messenger and have fun with your Magic Cards.

Rhino, I find amusing that the amount of psychoanalyzing you use is inversely proportional to the quantity and quality of your explanations. You know, seems to me that when you feel unwatched, you feel free to verbosely invent whatever; but when asked to elaborate, you go into "I'm right and you have mental/social/monetary problems" mode. Damn funny!

(almost as funny as watching you daring to talk about "big mouthed" guys. Oh man.)

I'm still waiting for that info about the early issues on manufacturing. Or did your private info source suddenly go silent? Does he only talk to confirm your guesses?
Let's see. Are you sure "it" mailed you? Or perhaps it was rather like some incorporeal, hushed voice that sounded like, oh I don't know, coming from inside your head?

The end users of consumer PDAs are barely using this stuff to all their features. They also have no desire to dive into it.

That would perhaps apply to Zire buyers. But someone paying for THE WiFi enabled Palm PDA, which is NOT the cheapest Palm PDA, surely knows WHY s/he is buying exactly that PDA. Or do you mean that people buys the T-C unknowingly?

"Hey honey, I'll be back in a minute. I feel the urge to buy something smallish, electronic, expensive and with a capital C on its name. Do you need something from the groceries while I'm at it?"

Now try to explain that someone that cares to buy a WiFi enabled PDA only wants mono audio on 2.5mm jacks.
You want us to believe that Palm was *forced* to use mono audio?
What will you say if PalmOne brings out some device allowing stereo out + mic in? Will you then say that PocketPCs not allowing for that are stupid designs?
C'mon, man, you're so absurd.

Cbowers, it was Rhino who said that he is sure there is a VoIP client app on a hard disk somewhere unreleased inside PalmOne. Interesting, isn't it? And apparently his "private source" said he was right.
(And then, it's us non-Rhino-believers who are lame... Wow man)

I know VLI's GPhone. That's why I was hoping that the Rhino would share with us the info on those early issues on manufacturing (oh, the bullsh1t) that "prevented" VoIP on the T-C... and would somehow justify the dumb connector - or, more accurately, would justify the dumb monoaural audio. Well, looks like I'll have to wait some more.

I just won't hold my breath. Heh.

Winter this post is more to those reading this than that since. I in now way answer to you nor anyone else in this discussion group.

I see. So, no answers, but you however want to have the last word without having to care about the talk back. How brave.

If you don't value my input and its validity based from my long term history here (of which I'm sure you will try to invalidate) too bad.

I don't know your "long term history here". Well, I in fact found that you already tried to defend monoaural audio on the T-C about one year ago, and someone else already said that PocketPCs offer 3.5 jacks with stereo+mic. (History does repeat, huh?). You didn't answer. Looks like you aren't answering now either.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5425#79414

So, no, I don't know your long term history. But I know your short term history, and it's not pretty.
Let's see. Some guy tries to make me swallow his rabid beliefs/opinions on Steve Jobs based on some insinuation that he's an Apple employee. No proofs.

Then the same guy tries to make me swallow some strange factoids based on some insinuation that he's some professional in charge for evaluation of PDAs for some company. The factoids are half wrong, half unprovable. No proofs, and no answer to further questions.

Then the same guy unprovokedly goes smart-assy talking about things clearly wrong and tries to make me swallow them, based on some confirming mail he says he received from some dark, private but reliable source. Again, no proofs.

I'm still asking: WHAT is that early issue that appeared on the T-C, and that your private source confirmed, that prevented VoIP from working, man?
And HOW did that justify the lack of stereo audio on the T-C?

So you were sure I would try to invalidate "your long term history"? Well, I only have to link to your brilliant posts (and lack of answers to subsequent questions), and readers can decide how "valid" is your history here.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6979#96013
(my post on that thread leads to more of Rhino's pearls...)

However, I would love that you pointed out when / where did I "invalidate your history". I only asked about the details of whatever you have been saying. Like, what were you talking about exactly with the QoS on 802.11g? And with TSRs on PocketPCs?
You see, those things don't need proofs, because they are PLAINLY WRONG - and anyone half informed knows that.

It would be interesting to have some proof that you are/were a 3-digit Apple employee, and that you're now in charge of evaluating PDAs for some company, and that you indeed have some private info source. But all of those could be real, and then perhaps should be kept secret. But I see no reason to believe that you know sh1t about those things, because you look like you don't. I can only see that you like the T-C, think that people that like gaming on a handheld are losers, that you don't know what are each WiFi standard for, and that you're sometimes an eager ignorant. Oh, and that you're quite disrespectful with the opinions/beliefs of the rest of the world.
And I love to laugh at such people, so we'll have lots o' fun. Heh.

You are one of those types that need everything proven to you

In your case, yes - I'm feeling I'll need proof of about everything, because of this tendency of yours to invent whatever you need at the moment to make your point.
Good news: things are usually easy to explain, 2 or 3 lines usually suffice - when they're true, of course.
And usually things are even easier to prove: just provide some link to the fact.
How long ago would have this discussion ended if you had answered the easy, clearly stated question(s) I had for you?
Some people post something informative, or post something dubious but mark it like that, or at least accept corrections. Conversations then get informative. You don't, you just go along the lines of "shut up loser, I am the One That Knows". Conversations then can only end like this one.

in a world of people that don't want things proven but in fact have more collective power than you will ever have nor will.

......huh?
I'm sorry, I already have a religion. Thanks.

This is something I doubt you will ever understand as you spend your life on-line too much. I'm here for good reasons. What is yours?

Mine, right now, is simple: you're funny, and it's even funnier to see you dodge the questions.

What I have said is the truth, unfortunately, I'm not willing to state the source to an unsecured forum like this.

OK, I can understand that. Now just ask "it" WHAT was that early VoIP issue in manufacturing, and HOW did that justify the Monoaural Flaw.

I thought it would be helpful. To those that matter, it has.

I'd love to see someone saying if your "contribution" has been helpful to them - and in what way, because I can't see anything that could be helpful.
"Hey man, you know the stinky monoaural audio of my T-C? I just read some guy saying that it's in fact a failed attempt to get into VoIP!"
"What do you mean? Johnny uses Gphone on her T-C and it works. And what does that have to do with the lack of stereo?"
"Oh... I don't know. But this guy had some important private info!"
".......sheeeeesh"

(Rhino, I'm thinking that perhaps I saw you before. On Dilbert perhaps?)

Finally, anyone in this business should have it figured out who I am. Several has emailed me and they got it. You obviously don't.

Erm... no, I really don't. But wait, I think I got it - Santa? Is it you?

I'm sure that Winter will not resist the temptation to have the last word. Cest la ve!

I see you wanted to have it. Poor try. :)

Now, will the Rhino post here once again to (try to) have the last word, though perhaps the question-dodging will go still more apparent?
Or will he just part and wait for a better moment to start inventing facts?
Will Winter follow him once again and expose him to the spotlight for what he is worth?
Don't miss our next episode!
:P

OK, thanks. My `new' (but refurbed) TC must've come with the old ROM.

Except with OS6 the licensee has the ability to restrict to only approved (signed by the licensee) drivers, and developers have the ability to restrict what other programs and drivers can touch, both in the memory space the developers app is running in, and all data files belonging (signed by) to the application.

PalmHiker,

Gald you value my opinion. Pretty much the 3.0 update should detect your TC as the international version and refuse to update. However, I haven't seen this tested. Please wait for the 3.0 international update before you upgrade your TC.

>>This is a bug fixer (and, at least a little bit, speed enhancer!) release that is much appreciated by those who choose to use their T|C's everyday as a personal and professional tool.<<

I just went through the upgrade process and while it took a while to transfer to the T|C via serial cradle (the update is about 10mb), everything went smoothly. Now I realize I could have used the faster wi-fi network hotsync, but since it was my first T|C update, I felt more comfortable following the instructions to the letter.

Anyay, thanks Palm. I appreciate the update.

A friend who works at palmOne told me that no current devices will get Cobalt updates due to processor requirements, ie the current devices aren't fast enough to offer a decent user experience from Cobalt. I wish it wasn't so (I have a T3) but expect to buy a new device if you want Cobalt... :-/

JLM.

Gqwd, why can't this forum quote properly???

Readers please be advised that the first half of my previous comment was a quote of what JLM said.

OS6 should be able to cut it at 200Mhz but I doubt user experience would be compelling. It would probably feel like an OS4 device. Useable but not fast enough. Once you factor in everything like graphics and how licensees customised the OS, a faster processor is called for. Hoffman was right when he said that faster memory with slower processor could speed up the usage but that's another matter. Memory for embedded devices aren't really making the headlines since there are almost no progress (that we heard off). What we need are DDR, higher clock speed as well as lower latency to clear the bottleneck.

I pretty much doubt OS6 would ever be released for current devices. I don't know how much PalmOne pays PalmSource for the license, but whatever it is, when we bought our T3s and TCs, the price only includes the license for the particular OS. Same problem in the PocketPC world.

--
Psion 5> Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > T/T > HP h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac 75 > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630

I think the C will be refreshed later this year with the biggest changes 128Mb RAM, 624Mhz and OS6. The way OS6 works (with each app having its own dynamic heap), 128Mb RAM should work well. Other than that, I guess palm1 would follow the same traditions of refreshing their business lines (V to Vx, m505 to m515, T to T2) and not provide much additional stuff. I guess the shell would remain the same as well. Companies like to promote their latest (soon to be released models) on films, but the C was the star of Little Black Book which means the C's shell won't be replaced anytime soon. But that's just speculating...and I am no expert in marketing.

The whole week I was in iPAQ overdose with all those dissapointing models HP released (except the 4700 -but I still love the 19xx formfactor of my 4150). I think we need a leak from Palm1's side. With Sony out of the game (outside Japan), news on hardware releases should be pretty thin...I think its in Palm1's best interest to keep people interested in their platform.

--
Psion 5> Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > T/T > HP h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac 75 > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630

I am having this exact same issue.
Did you ever find a resolution for this?

Call Palm tech support. The phone number is on the download page.