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Comments on: palmOne Tungsten C Update 3.0

palmOne has released its third software rom update for the Tungsten C handheld. It contains all of the previous updated as well as some new improvements and corrections.
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Still something missing...

feranick @ 7/22/2004 3:29:06 PM #
Although it's nice to see that there still some support for the T|C, I am a bit disappointed to see that, the third update still does not include a better browser (WebPro) and the latest version of DocToGo.
Am I asking too much?

Nicola

RE: Still something missing...
palmhiker @ 7/22/2004 3:34:26 PM #
Asking too much? Maybe not as far as the browser is concerned, but would you expect to get the latest version of MS Office every time you updated Windows?

The upgrade to Docs2Go Premium is well worth the cost.

RE: Still something missing...
feranick @ 7/22/2004 3:54:07 PM #
Yes, you are right, maybe having DocToGo 6 in an update is asking too much. How about the improved PIMs that are basically in every PalmOne device but the C?
RE: Still something missing...
hkklife @ 7/22/2004 5:14:31 PM #
PalmOne really needs to do one of the following:

A. Offer a free OS 5.2.8 upgrade for existing T|C (and T|T2 would be nice too) users. This can at least bring the built-in PIM apps up to speed. Docs2Go, Kinoma etc upgrades would be great but that's very unlikely to occur. Of course, this could create many new headaches for the idiots at Palm customer support dept so it could be an "unofficially supported, at your own risk" type of release. I am sure the windows-based OS installer could check to ensure that the latest Palm desktop is present before starting the OS flash process on the handheld.

OR

B. Issue a statement that definitively states that OS6 upgrades will/won't be available for T3/T|C users in the near future. I, as well as many T3 & T|C users, would gladly pay $20 or so for an OS upgrade for our existing OS5 Palms.

But I have to admit, the release of this C 3.0 update makes me think more & more that Palm's going to "refresh" the current C with new packaging and a new OS (either 5.2.8 or OS6) this fall and keep selling the same essential hardware through spring '05.

RE: Still something missing...
bcombee @ 7/22/2004 5:25:39 PM #
Updating the PIM apps on the T|C would require that you also update your Palm Desktop setup, and it could intefere with users that are using conduits or other applications that aren't compatible with the new PIM data formats.

--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog
RE: Still something missing...
ackmondual @ 7/22/2004 6:17:01 PM #
"
The upgrade to Docs2Go Premium is well worth the cost
"

^^
Yeah, i think he meant an upgrade in version number, NOT edition. The Tungsten C is bundled with DTG Pro 5. Almost all new handhelds have some edition of v6.0. If you have Palm Photos (or some other image viewer), and don't put emails on your handheld, then the Premium edition features aren't really worth the upgrade from Professional edit.

[signature0]the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse[/signature0]
[signature1]My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71.... so ends the "marathon", for now[/signature1]

RE: Still something missing...
feranick @ 7/22/2004 6:52:01 PM #
Yes, I meant upgrade from DocToGo 5 to 6...


RE: Still something missing...
palmhiker @ 7/23/2004 12:38:40 PM #
Well, I actually meant version 6, so I think we are all on the same page.

Regarding the improved PIM - I purchased the T-C over the T-3 in part because it did NOT have the updated PIM apps. If you monitor the DateBk5 user group on Yahoo, you will know that the data manager (DateBk5 programmer calls it Data Mangler) patch has a number of bugs and cuases all sorts of issues.

Improved PIMs

jackl @ 7/22/2004 4:39:03 PM #
Along the same lines, the new downloadable Palm Desktop 4.1.4 has support for adding photos of contacts to their records, but the handheld Contacts software for the Tungsten 3 can't access that part of the record like the Zire 72 with the built-in camera(it's there, because the photos will sync to another desktop, they just don't display on the handheld).

I sent in an e-mail support request, seeing whether I could download an updated Contacts client, but the brain-dead answer just confirmed that "no we don't have that feature in the Tungsten software" (something I obviously knew) but no attempt to offer a patch, workaround, etc. or even acknowledge a feature request.

J


RE: Improved PIMs
vesther @ 7/25/2004 10:35:23 AM #
Maybe that would be likely implemented with the Cobalt Flash ROM Upgrade.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

Downloaded the Update but...

vesther @ 7/22/2004 10:26:43 PM #
....can't do so because the ROM upgrade claims that my radio module is corrupt and cannot be repaired. I contacted PalmOne E-Mail Support.

On other news, I have wrote a formal letter to the directorship of PalmOne regarding about their recent quality problems as well.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

RE: Downloaded the Update but...
MountainLogic @ 7/23/2004 8:11:15 PM #
I can't seem to finish re-syncing my T|C after upgrading. Restoring seems to fail in Versamail even though I have vermain sync turned off on my PC's hot sync manager prefs. It fails with this error message:

Fatal Alert
Emul68kMain.c LineL403,
illegal instruction 00CF at address 00CF3266

Anybody else seen this problem. Most of my apps seem to be restored, but some of the receint ones seem to have lost their catagory!

RE: Downloaded the Update but...
vesther @ 7/24/2004 6:43:38 PM #
Mountain--Have you tried a Hard Reset before? Have you ever renamed the "Backup" Folder to a name such as Pilot or et. al. before?

If the Fatal Error persists, you might have to do a hard reset, go to your username (6-char truncated version, for example, vesther is vesthe), rename the Backup Folder to Pilot or Tungsten C, or whatever you want to do, have all PIMs set at "Desktop overwrites Handheld" (Mac overwrites Handheld in Macintosh), do a HotSync, and install one PDA program at a time, to see which one is the offending software.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

RE: Downloaded the Update but...
Clymmer @ 7/26/2004 5:49:56 PM #
vesther,

You probably figured this out by now, but I received that same "corrupted" error when I tried to run the update. However, the error went away after I turned the Wi-Fi radio on in preferences.

It worked without a hitch then!

C.

RE: Downloaded the Update but...
gobabushka @ 7/27/2004 12:43:22 AM #
Dear MountainLogic,

I have had this problem before with older palm os pda's, and I would say that the ROM is corrupt. I would suggest trying a system reset.(hit the reset button while holding the up button). If that doesn't work, you should call palmOne.

RE: Downloaded the Update but...
vesther @ 7/27/2004 10:38:23 PM #
C

I found out that one of the prerequisites of the update is that the Tungsten C's IO has the exact same MAC Address as the back of the handheld. I had to swap C Handhelds mainly because I had a Rogue Addy (00:00:00:00:00:00) on the IO, the radio is going to be corrupt if it's showing a rogue addy. Hopefully, I got a C that has a protected MAC addy.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

RE: Downloaded the Update but...
MountainLogic @ 7/28/2004 12:21:55 PM #
OK, I've got things back to life. Thanks for all the suggestions. I had tried several hard resets with no joy so I did another hard reset, and sync'ed with an old host PC with older back-up images. I then resync'ed with my new (main) host PC and got everything back. Some apps showed up as catagory unfiled and I had to return them to their categories by hand, but every thing else came out fine.

I think the problem may have been the sync function of one of the apps. Things seemed to fail right at the end of restore in a non-deterministic way. Sometime all the restored apps would have their cat's right and sometimes some of them would be unfiled.

Palm does deserve kudos for providing updates for a product this long on the market, thanks Palm One/Source.

The T-C is ALIVE!

RhinoSteve @ 7/23/2004 12:34:32 AM #
I am totally absovled of the wankers here that have called the T-C "old" and "defective." This shows that the best enterprise selling, WiFi PDA off all time is doing great.

... and all of you wankers can trash me. You comments are worth as much as the canceled welfare checks you grew up on.
RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
benjin @ 7/23/2004 1:56:28 AM #
I've never seen a welfare check in my life, and I think you suck.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
RhinoSteve @ 7/23/2004 2:02:00 AM #
Wow! A baseless insult. I win! :)
RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
benjin @ 7/23/2004 2:05:24 AM #
;-)

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Winter_ @ 7/23/2004 4:27:16 AM #
I think I can tell you some other thing based on your own words that you will surely say is baseless AND also makes you "win".

Oh, and a 3rd ROM udpate still does not make the T-C exactly "new". See, this is its 3rd ROM update. That is, 2 updates came before. That doesn't say much about the T-C youth nor its defects-free nature. Or does it?

(3rd update and still there were problems with DHCP requests?? Oh man... that would have been PAINFUL here)

But, hey, don't let this interfere with your wanking.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
hkklife @ 7/23/2004 9:38:50 AM #
Yes this is just akin to a Microsoft Service Pack for Windows (without of the fancy new features) which brings me to my point:

PalmOne could get major kudos from the community for actually taking the bold move of ADDING features or updating ROM apps for once! I'll say again that PalmOne should institute a policy of ALL Tungsten models receiving at least one "guaranteed" mid-life OS/app update direct & supported by PalmOne. That would do some damage control to keep peple from defecting to Zires or PPC and show that, for the first time in years, PalmOne cares about their customers.

Something I find interesting are the supposed "MMC driver enhancement", first introduced in 2.0 C Update. I'd like to know if this is just for MMC or for SD as well and if they are bug-related or speed-related in nature. I had 2.0 on my T|C for a while before I sold it and I never noticed any appreciable difference.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
kevdo @ 7/23/2004 3:12:33 PM #
>defecting to Zires
You do know that the Zires are made by PalmOne too, right? :-)

-Kevin Crossman, Palm Powered Software Champion
RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Altema @ 7/23/2004 5:29:12 PM #
At least the TC is getting an update, unlike the folks using WM SE which will never be updated. Or worse yet, those Clie owners which are at a complete dead end.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Winter_ @ 7/23/2004 9:29:19 PM #
You do know that the Zires are made by PalmOne too, right? :-)

So what? Or do you mean that PalmOne should ditch Tungstens? (their "pro" line as you surely know)

At least the TC is getting an update,

I think no one is criticizing Palm for publishing updates. We're only telling the Rhino that the T-C is not exactly new. Nor exactly defects-free either :).
Or is it?

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Strider_mt2k @ 7/24/2004 7:27:30 AM #
Hey maybe owners should just be glad if it isn't disintegrating or the paint isn't coming off!


RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
AyDb @ 7/24/2004 3:39:38 PM #
At least the TC is getting an update, unlike the folks using WM SE which will never be updated.

You're comparing an OS update, which Palms don't get either, to a ROM update, which PocketPCs do get.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
vesther @ 7/24/2004 8:38:16 PM #
I have to agree with Rhino because the TC is such a potent machine, and it appears that PalmOne wants to make this device age well, it's pretty much a production workhorse for business. One day, though, I will need to see more PalmOne devices with Wi-Fi, but that depends how much willing PalmOne is willing to commit itself to the IEEE 802.11 standard.

For now, the Tungsten C remains the best handheld PalmOne has to offer, in spite of the Monaural flaw.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
RhinoSteve @ 7/26/2004 5:14:18 AM #
> For now, the Tungsten C remains the best handheld
> PalmOne has to offer, in spite of the Monaural flaw.

You call it a flaw, I call it a premature embrace of Voice-Over-IP. The 2.5 mm connector they have is almost the defacto standard for wireless headsets on almost all cell phones.

I'd bet good money, a VoIP partner failed to deliver on the goods when the TC was launched. I'm sure there is a VoIP client app on a hard disk somewhere unreleased inside PalmOne.

The newer 802.11g has a good packet priority for streaming media that will allow this to happen without pops and clicks. Unfortunately, lower power versions of these chips are just starting to sample now.

My guess is that PalmOne was stuck with a 2.5 mm connector in the case and no VoIP client to really exploit it. Thus, it was simply rebranded "monoaural"
and left that.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Winter_ @ 7/26/2004 7:14:59 AM #
You call it a flaw, I call it a premature embrace of Voice-Over-IP.

Well, you're of the creative type, aren't you?

I'd bet good money, a VoIP partner failed to deliver on the goods when the TC was launched.

Any solid reason to think that, and to explain why that VoIP app has not been released afterwards?
Surely a VoIP app could be used on different ways; as you surely know, there are some standards. If some partner failed to deliver, surely some other would be interested to fill the gap. Don't you think so?

Meanwhile, I'd keep that "monoaural flaw" thing. After all, you talked not long ago about PocketPCs and their "hard disk emulation flaw", didn't you?

The newer 802.11g has a good packet priority for streaming media

Huh?? "Packet priority for streaming media" on 802.11g? I guess you're referring to the QoS enhancements on 802.11e...

that will allow this to happen without pops and clicks. Unfortunately, lower power versions of these chips are just starting to sample now.

So, even if low power 802.11e chipsets were appearing now (and I guess they aren't), what would that have to do with the subject at hand? (you know, the monoaural flaw of the T-C)

My guess is that PalmOne was stuck with a 2.5 mm connector in the case and no VoIP client to really exploit it. Thus, it was simply rebranded "monoaural"
and left that.

So, customers, stop saying "the T-C is monoaural"; it's in fact a powerful VoIP device! (pity it's crippled, so to the untrained eye and underanged imagination it can look like a monoaural PDA)

Still, I wonder how (supposed) VoIP functionality would justify the lack of stereo audio... To me, usefulness of stereo audio is kind of evident, but (supposed) VoIP looks a bit more like a niche.

Well, live to learn. To learn from the Rhino, that is.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
RhinoSteve @ 7/26/2004 11:12:42 AM #
Winter, I must have gotten under your skin hard to get you like this. I'm complemented. Now just fess up why and we can all be more relaxed here. I don't know where you come from but it is not a professional consumer nor enterprise background. My guess is some indy developer that did one or two mass releases that spends too much time on-line as part of your social life.

I just got a private email and I can tell you that my guess was right. It is early VoIP issues that didn't work out and the hardware was too far along in manufacturing to change. Maybe this is another reason why there is new product planning and development at PalmOne. This product never had a primary aim at the consumer market.

Let's put up there with death and taxes a Palm hardware release that is always lacking one feature that someone here will bitch about.
RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Winter_ @ 7/26/2004 7:28:47 PM #
Winter, I must have gotten under your skin hard to get you like this.

As a matter of fact, yes, you have. I have this tendency to get uneasy with people that publish their opinions / beliefs as facts and, when "challenged" to back their claims, they can only appeal to authority - being authority themselves, of course (and of course an uncertifiable authority). At the very least they typically claim some secret and personal info source.

It's even funnier when said people demonstrate that they're less than proficient with the things they're talking about. Like when they unprovokedly talk about QoS on 802.11g (wrong!), or laugh about TSRs on PocketPCs while defending Palm OS (wrong!). Still, they claim they're industry insiders, and / or "professionals" in charge of lots of things, and (still better) that allows them to say funnies like "everybody else is a loser". Wow.

I just got a private email and I can tell you that my guess was right.

See what was I talking about?

Well, let's believe that you have some private info source. Would you please ask him/her how stereo audio hardware would be supposed to interfere with VoIP capabilities?
And why there is no Palm branded VoIP software (as you hinted) now anyway? Do you mean that there is anything in the hardware stopping it?
The T3 seems to be capable of duplex audio (you surely know what is that, huh?). It should be perfectly useable for VoIP, don't you think so? (if Bluetooth bandwidth / latency allows). We only need the software. So, if there was some Palm-branded VoIP software for the T-C, why not release it for every VoIP-capable Palm?

The Zaurus does have VoIP software (by third parties). Do you mean that its hardware was specially designed for that?

I'd bet that any Linux PDA is able to use some kind of VoIP (as there are some options for Linux). You only need sound in, sound out, network connection and a beefy enough processor - and surely not that beefy in fact.

Finally, not even the form factor of the audio jack looks like an excuse, since some PocketPCs sport a single 3.5mm jack with stereo audio AND mic.

So, PLEASE: what's the relationship you're trying to make between the monoaural audio on the T-C and its VoIP capabilities?

Oh, and your guess is wrong. :D


RE: The T-C is ALIVE! more like dead along time ago
tooele @ 7/26/2004 8:49:50 PM #
"For now, the Tungsten C remains the best handheld"
You call the tungsten C the best palm. Whatever they should have stopped selling it long ago. Basically all of the applications that come with it are outdated. It doesn't even have the latest version of webpro or docs to go. How about it's headphone jack it's worthless there's no program I know of that supports VoIp for the TC so what's it good for? A standard head phone jack is 3.5mm not 2.5. The TT3 is a way better device by far. The only reason the TC remains to be popular is because if you don't want windows and don't like sony but need WI-FI their is no other choice. That's why i think the TC stinks and the TT3 is the best palm.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
RhinoSteve @ 7/26/2004 10:50:54 PM #
Winter, the major flaw you have is using your immense technical ability way too much into making a product work and then assuming everyone else can do the same.

While all of your technical arguments are correct, the problem is none of that stuff sells outside the hacker/geek/scifi-convention/computer/newsgroup/dungeons-&-dragon /desperately-needs-to-get-laid community. In marketing demographics, you and your like is called the "freaks and geeks" crowd. It represents less then 10% of all consumer electronic sales and sadly, 90% of most Internet newsgroup posts.

To the retail crowd, a 3.5 mm connector is for stereo headsets. The 2.5 mm connector is for cell phones. That is how the market has shaken it out wether you like it or not.

Thus, you see a PDA with a 2.5 mm connector, it says cell phone and thus voice over IP to the mass market. If you try to push a PDA with a 3.5 mm connector and say it is voice over IP, most of the market will go "I can't plug my headset into it." and they won't buy it.

Dumb? Well there are people out there with lives that are not into finguring out ever piece of technology out there to impress the turbo geeks. Some us like times on the beach, going clubbing and other social activities.

In summary, take your hacks, your OS patchs and custom cables and try to sell it where you can justify your hardware tool up. Guess what? You can't! Welcome to some of the real world.
RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Winter_ @ 7/27/2004 6:41:59 AM #
So your theory is something like "enterprise people are dumb, and that's a fact of life"?

Or better yet: "enterprise people are interested on PDAs with WiFi and VoIP capabilities but are too dumb to look further than a (mono) 2.5mm jack, and that's a fact of life"?

I'm sorry, but I can only say that it's SUCH A LAME, STUPID EXCUSE.

Even my father, who after 5 years still has problems understanding margins on MS Word, knows the difference between the jacks on his computer, his mobile phone and his portable radio. So is he a geek by your definition or what?

(incidentally the portable radio is a Sony, and uses a 2.5mm mono jack - so, so much for your insightful the market has shaken out 2.5mm jacks for mobile headsets)

And knowing that some PocketPCs offer 3.5mm jacks with stereo+mic make the T-C's jack still dumber.

Anyway, looks like you started trying to justify the monoaural flaw like some brave but somehow failed attempt to go into the uncharted waters of VoIP (*chuckle*), and now you just try to claim that enterprise people are too dumb to want stereo audio. Interesting progression.

Well, once more, live to learn. To learn from the Rhino, that is. :P

As a side note, since you admit that my technical arguments are all correct, would you please ask your private info source (that one that confirmed your guess) to elaborate on those early VoIP issues that didn't work out when the hardware was too far along in manufacturing? Because it sounds quite bullsh1ttish, you know.


RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
RhinoSteve @ 7/27/2004 12:21:48 PM #
>I'm sorry, but I can only say that it's SUCH A LAME,
> STUPID EXCUSE.

Go into any retail consumer store and talk to the half trained sales guy. He will go "cell phone connector" and "stereo connector" and only go by its size to make a quick sales decision. Lame? That is your opintion. However, that perception I stated makes more sales than anything techies like you can do.

I will say it again, you spend way too much time with the technology around you and not around most people who are using it. The end users of consumer PDAs are barely using this stuff to all their features. They also have no desire to dive into it.

This is why the low end Zires are the best selling Palm OS products of all time. While the turbo geeks bitch that buttons are missing to play games (if you want to talk about lame, that is) it has sold in the millions. Not to mention first time Zire owners are more fun dates than most people that post here.

Every product line has their hardcore users. However, they are always a minority that unfortunately don't have much money most of the time to back up their big mouth. Why they don't have the cash? Well that is a deep question you need to ask yourself. You many not like the answer if you can confront it at all.

To state it again:

2.5 mm = cell phone connector (two way)
3.5 mm = stereo headset connector (one way)

Yes there are technical exceptions but that is how the public makes product purchase decisions right now.


>And knowing that some PocketPCs offer 3.5mm jacks
>with stereo+mic make the T-C's jack still dumber.

In fact, that 3.5mm jack is one problem with the PPC that is hurting its sales. Putting that into a device makes it a bad mass market item for VoIP. In fact, the PPC is selling so poorly, they are moving their connector and packaging decisions to the "freaks and geeks" crowd hoping it will move mainstream like it did with PCs. This model has shown not to work in the consumer electronics field to due the lack of product usage time.


>
>As a side note, since you admit that my technical
>arguments are all correct, would you please ask your
>private info source (that one that confirmed your
>guess) to elaborate on those early VoIP issues that
>didn't work out when the hardware was too far along in
>manufacturing? Because it sounds quite bullsh1ttish,
>you know.

I keep on wondering why I keep on arguing with you. I've come to the conclusion that some of the most inflexable, single minded types in this industry are often the indie developers themselves that are sitting on a cash cow that are unwilling to change. Worst, they embrase this technical diversity so they are needed to sort out problems created buy a lack of evident functionality of a product by a consumer.

If anything Winter, you have become almost the difinitive hardcore techie that cannot effectively communicate to the masses cause you are so immersed in technology. Do you use it to hide from something?

I honestly think I hit on something of yourself that you can't deal with and now you are going after me irrationaly. Shame. Please, don't kill the messenger and have fun with your Magic Cards.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
cbowers @ 7/27/2004 1:22:53 PM #
Palm never said they would include a Palm branded VoIP app. The news releases said that VLI would release a version of Gphone for the Tungsten C and it would be included on later Tungsten C's CD. Delays extended and I'm not aware that it was ever included on the CDs, but they did release it, it can be had for free on their website. I've made calls to and from my T-C. The problem is, it's such a noisy client it's nearly useless. Not the Tungstens fault likely, as the PC version is as bad. However Vonage has reported they'll be releasing a VoIP client also.

As for the jack, well yes, though the 2.5/3.5 matters not to me, I'd have preferred that the 4th contact have been used for a left channel rather than the "button". After all there's that bug (tested through update 2.0 but not yet on 3.0) that you could leverage to launch the Voice memo app (hands free no less). Just make any loud sound in the mic and the Voice memo app launches. Quite annoying actually.

It's going to be an oddball connector either way. It may as well have been a more usefull oddball connector. All things considered, it should have been a stereo connector with mic. Put an internal mic with dedicated record button or second function keyboard button. Inserting a headphone in the jack would cut the internal mic and speaker.

But then the "last mile" of the design has always been PalmOne's problem.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Winter_ @ 7/28/2004 2:30:17 AM #
Rhino, I find amusing that the amount of psychoanalyzing you use is inversely proportional to the quantity and quality of your explanations. You know, seems to me that when you feel unwatched, you feel free to verbosely invent whatever; but when asked to elaborate, you go into "I'm right and you have mental/social/monetary problems" mode. Damn funny!

(almost as funny as watching you daring to talk about "big mouthed" guys. Oh man.)

I'm still waiting for that info about the early issues on manufacturing. Or did your private info source suddenly go silent? Does he only talk to confirm your guesses?
Let's see. Are you sure "it" mailed you? Or perhaps it was rather like some incorporeal, hushed voice that sounded like, oh I don't know, coming from inside your head?

The end users of consumer PDAs are barely using this stuff to all their features. They also have no desire to dive into it.

That would perhaps apply to Zire buyers. But someone paying for THE WiFi enabled Palm PDA, which is NOT the cheapest Palm PDA, surely knows WHY s/he is buying exactly that PDA. Or do you mean that people buys the T-C unknowingly?

"Hey honey, I'll be back in a minute. I feel the urge to buy something smallish, electronic, expensive and with a capital C on its name. Do you need something from the groceries while I'm at it?"

Now try to explain that someone that cares to buy a WiFi enabled PDA only wants mono audio on 2.5mm jacks.
You want us to believe that Palm was *forced* to use mono audio?
What will you say if PalmOne brings out some device allowing stereo out + mic in? Will you then say that PocketPCs not allowing for that are stupid designs?
C'mon, man, you're so absurd.

Cbowers, it was Rhino who said that he is sure there is a VoIP client app on a hard disk somewhere unreleased inside PalmOne. Interesting, isn't it? And apparently his "private source" said he was right.
(And then, it's us non-Rhino-believers who are lame... Wow man)

I know VLI's GPhone. That's why I was hoping that the Rhino would share with us the info on those early issues on manufacturing (oh, the bullsh1t) that "prevented" VoIP on the T-C... and would somehow justify the dumb connector - or, more accurately, would justify the dumb monoaural audio. Well, looks like I'll have to wait some more.

I just won't hold my breath. Heh.

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
RhinoSteve @ 7/28/2004 3:38:14 PM #
Winter this post is more to those reading this than that since. I in now way answer to you nor anyone else in this discussion group. If you don't value my input and its validity based from my long term history here (of which I'm sure you will try to invalidate) too bad.

You are one of those types that need everything proven to you in a world of people that don't want things proven but in fact have more collective power than you will ever have nor will. This is something I doubt you will ever understand as you spend your life on-line too much. I'm here for good reasons. What is yours?

What I have said is the truth, unfortunately, I'm not willing to state the source to an unsecured forum like this. I thought it would be helpful. To those that matter, it has. Finally, anyone in this business should have it figured out who I am. Several has emailed me and they got it. You obviously don't.

Put a fork in it, this is done. If you can't get it from what I said, that is sad. Get some real world experience and quit geeking out and put your skills to good use.

I'm sure that Winter will not resist the temptation to have the last word. Cest la ve!

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
Winter_ @ 7/28/2004 4:11:32 PM #
Winter this post is more to those reading this than that since. I in now way answer to you nor anyone else in this discussion group.

I see. So, no answers, but you however want to have the last word without having to care about the talk back. How brave.


If you don't value my input and its validity based from my long term history here (of which I'm sure you will try to invalidate) too bad.

I don't know your "long term history here". Well, I in fact found that you already tried to defend monoaural audio on the T-C about one year ago, and someone else already said that PocketPCs offer 3.5 jacks with stereo+mic. (History does repeat, huh?). You didn't answer. Looks like you aren't answering now either.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5425#79414

So, no, I don't know your long term history. But I know your short term history, and it's not pretty.
Let's see. Some guy tries to make me swallow his rabid beliefs/opinions on Steve Jobs based on some insinuation that he's an Apple employee. No proofs.

Then the same guy tries to make me swallow some strange factoids based on some insinuation that he's some professional in charge for evaluation of PDAs for some company. The factoids are half wrong, half unprovable. No proofs, and no answer to further questions.

Then the same guy unprovokedly goes smart-assy talking about things clearly wrong and tries to make me swallow them, based on some confirming mail he says he received from some dark, private but reliable source. Again, no proofs.

I'm still asking: WHAT is that early issue that appeared on the T-C, and that your private source confirmed, that prevented VoIP from working, man?
And HOW did that justify the lack of stereo audio on the T-C?

So you were sure I would try to invalidate "your long term history"? Well, I only have to link to your brilliant posts (and lack of answers to subsequent questions), and readers can decide how "valid" is your history here.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6979#96013
(my post on that thread leads to more of Rhino's pearls...)

However, I would love that you pointed out when / where did I "invalidate your history". I only asked about the details of whatever you have been saying. Like, what were you talking about exactly with the QoS on 802.11g? And with TSRs on PocketPCs?
You see, those things don't need proofs, because they are PLAINLY WRONG - and anyone half informed knows that.

It would be interesting to have some proof that you are/were a 3-digit Apple employee, and that you're now in charge of evaluating PDAs for some company, and that you indeed have some private info source. But all of those could be real, and then perhaps should be kept secret. But I see no reason to believe that you know sh1t about those things, because you look like you don't. I can only see that you like the T-C, think that people that like gaming on a handheld are losers, that you don't know what are each WiFi standard for, and that you're sometimes an eager ignorant. Oh, and that you're quite disrespectful with the opinions/beliefs of the rest of the world.
And I love to laugh at such people, so we'll have lots o' fun. Heh.

You are one of those types that need everything proven to you

In your case, yes - I'm feeling I'll need proof of about everything, because of this tendency of yours to invent whatever you need at the moment to make your point.
Good news: things are usually easy to explain, 2 or 3 lines usually suffice - when they're true, of course.
And usually things are even easier to prove: just provide some link to the fact.
How long ago would have this discussion ended if you had answered the easy, clearly stated question(s) I had for you?
Some people post something informative, or post something dubious but mark it like that, or at least accept corrections. Conversations then get informative. You don't, you just go along the lines of "shut up loser, I am the One That Knows". Conversations then can only end like this one.

in a world of people that don't want things proven but in fact have more collective power than you will ever have nor will.

......huh?
I'm sorry, I already have a religion. Thanks.

This is something I doubt you will ever understand as you spend your life on-line too much. I'm here for good reasons. What is yours?

Mine, right now, is simple: you're funny, and it's even funnier to see you dodge the questions.

What I have said is the truth, unfortunately, I'm not willing to state the source to an unsecured forum like this.

OK, I can understand that. Now just ask "it" WHAT was that early VoIP issue in manufacturing, and HOW did that justify the Monoaural Flaw.

I thought it would be helpful. To those that matter, it has.

I'd love to see someone saying if your "contribution" has been helpful to them - and in what way, because I can't see anything that could be helpful.
"Hey man, you know the stinky monoaural audio of my T-C? I just read some guy saying that it's in fact a failed attempt to get into VoIP!"
"What do you mean? Johnny uses Gphone on her T-C and it works. And what does that have to do with the lack of stereo?"
"Oh... I don't know. But this guy had some important private info!"
".......sheeeeesh"

(Rhino, I'm thinking that perhaps I saw you before. On Dilbert perhaps?)

Finally, anyone in this business should have it figured out who I am. Several has emailed me and they got it. You obviously don't.

Erm... no, I really don't. But wait, I think I got it - Santa? Is it you?

I'm sure that Winter will not resist the temptation to have the last word. Cest la ve!

I see you wanted to have it. Poor try. :)

Now, will the Rhino post here once again to (try to) have the last word, though perhaps the question-dodging will go still more apparent?
Or will he just part and wait for a better moment to start inventing facts?
Will Winter follow him once again and expose him to the spotlight for what he is worth?
Don't miss our next episode!
:P

RE: The T-C is ALIVE!
RhinoSteve @ 7/31/2004 5:40:20 PM #
Verum neque nec argument vadum paro vos solvo.

Clicks fixed

hank34 @ 7/23/2004 8:50:46 PM #
NB: I notice that this update also fixes a problem by which the TC emits `clicks' after random keypresses & digitizer events, even with all of the sound settings turned off.
RE: Clicks fixed
jho4thclie @ 7/24/2004 12:34:15 PM #
That was fixed in the first or second ROM update months ago. :-D

-JWH
RE: Clicks fixed
hank34 @ 7/24/2004 3:57:03 PM #
OK, thanks. My `new' (but refurbed) TC must've come with the old ROM.

RE: Clicks fixed (and so has power!)
RhinoSteve @ 7/26/2004 5:03:44 AM #
Not only that but I'm noticing an improvement in power consumption. Overall, I'm pleased with the patch. I'll endorse it.

While the third party developers bitch and moan about there not being any public APIs for network drivers, this is a nice improvement. I hope OS 6 opens up more third party driver opportunites.

But then, that is how a lot of viruses and worms are written. The last thing I need is my Palm device hitting a boho's WiFi Linux laptop in a coffee shop that is spewing out wireless worm's. I can see the headlines now "Hackers in Coffee Shops Spreading Wireless Viruses" That could make a scare real bad.

While I'm looking forward to OS 6, I'm sure there is going to be a fine balance between open ended drivers and rogue OS patches floating around wirelessly.

RE: Clicks fixed
cbowers @ 7/28/2004 2:31:55 AM #
Except with OS6 the licensee has the ability to restrict to only approved (signed by the licensee) drivers, and developers have the ability to restrict what other programs and drivers can touch, both in the memory space the developers app is running in, and all data files belonging (signed by) to the application.

RE: Clicks fixed
palmhiker @ 7/28/2004 12:02:25 PM #
RhinoSteve:

I have an international version of the T-C, purchased in the U.S. recently.

Do you (or anyone else) know if I could use the current 3.0 update on my T-C?

The instructions mention "international users must install all 5 files...", but it is indicated that an international version will be out "soon."

Since I am using English language anyway, will this update be safe for me to use?

RE: Clicks fixed
RhinoSteve @ 7/28/2004 4:00:31 PM #
PalmHiker,

Gald you value my opinion. Pretty much the 3.0 update should detect your TC as the international version and refuse to update. However, I haven't seen this tested. Please wait for the 3.0 international update before you upgrade your TC.

RE: Clicks fixed
palmhiker @ 7/28/2004 4:06:40 PM #
Thanks RhinoSteve. I have been told that the US update will work, but I am in no big hurry to do the update so I will hold off.

Thanks PalmOne

jho4thclie @ 7/24/2004 12:28:22 PM #
I'll stay out of the childish fighting over this professional device, and say separately that I very much appreciate the continued updates. PalmOne is really doing a great job here!

This is a bug fixer (and, at least a little bit, speed enhancer!) release that is much appreciated by those who choose to use their T|C's everyday as a personal and professional tool. After over a year of ownership, I wouldn't trade my T|C for any other device on the market... Thanks Palm!

-JWH

RE: Thanks PalmOne (the Rhino charges again)
Winter_ @ 7/26/2004 6:38:55 AM #
But then, that is how a lot of viruses and worms are written.

Huh??

The last thing I need is my Palm device hitting a boho's WiFi Linux laptop in a coffee shop that is spewing out wireless worm's. I can see the headlines now "Hackers in Coffee Shops Spreading Wireless Viruses" That could make a scare real bad.

Oh man...

Would you please explain that piece of uninformation? 'cause I feel it wouldn't qualify even as FUD.

Specifically: what do public APIs for network drivers have to do with WiFi Linux laptop in a coffee shop that is spewing out wireless worm's?

Perhaps you are supposing that the PDA owner had already been infected by some trojan, for example? In that case the WiFi laptop does not need to "spew out wireless worm's" [sic]...

And how is the lack of "public APIs for network drivers" (if true) going to protect Palm OS users from trojans or worms?

And what do you mean with "that is how a lot of viruses and worms are written"? From what I know, if some program (trojan or not) wants to connect over the net, it only has to open a socket, and those are available on Palm OS... so what are you talking about again?

RE: Thanks PalmOne
lamp @ 7/27/2004 8:54:04 PM #
>>This is a bug fixer (and, at least a little bit, speed enhancer!) release that is much appreciated by those who choose to use their T|C's everyday as a personal and professional tool.<<

I just went through the upgrade process and while it took a while to transfer to the T|C via serial cradle (the update is about 10mb), everything went smoothly. Now I realize I could have used the faster wi-fi network hotsync, but since it was my first T|C update, I felt more comfortable following the instructions to the letter.

Anyay, thanks Palm. I appreciate the update.

All PalmOne now has to do is get serious....

vesther @ 7/24/2004 3:51:00 PM #
....with other devices that are capable of Flash ROM Updates.

Good thing palmOne continues supporting their flagship Tungsten C as that's the device I'm planning to keep. I'm hoping that a Tungsten C Flash Update with OS 5.2.8 will come by soon.....

Moreover yet, I'm also hoping that Palm OS Cobalt Update will bring Tungsten C up-to-gear as well.

Intel PXA27X, Motorola's ARM Processor, or Texas Instruments OMAP? Pick one Palm Enthusiasts, the choice should be yours. When handheld makers make you choose the ARM Processor, you win.

RE: All PalmOne now has to do is get serious....
just_little_me @ 7/25/2004 9:32:20 PM #
A friend who works at palmOne told me that no current devices will get Cobalt updates due to processor requirements, ie the current devices aren't fast enough to offer a decent user experience from Cobalt. I wish it wasn't so (I have a T3) but expect to buy a new device if you want Cobalt... :-/


JLM.

RE: All PalmOne now has to do is get serious....
goofrider @ 7/25/2004 11:25:38 PM #
@just_little_me:

A friend who works at palmOne told me that no current devices will get Cobalt updates due to processor requirements, ie the current devices aren't fast enough to offer a decent user experience from Cobalt. I wish it wasn't so (I have a T3) but expect to buy a new device if you want Cobalt... :-/


JLM.

According to an interview with George Hoffman, Director of Applications and Services at PalmSource, Cobalt's reference hardware is the Intel PXA255 X-Scale processor, running at 200Mhz. The interview was conducted AFTER Cobalt went gold and RTMed.

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6148

So thanks for the FUD, but try harder.

Though whether PalmOne will release a Cobalt upgrade for existing devices regardless of technical feasibility is a total different question.



RE: All PalmOne now has to do is get serious....
goofrider @ 7/25/2004 11:31:41 PM #
Gqwd, why can't this forum quote properly???


Readers please be advised that the first half of my previous comment was a quote of what JLM said.

RE: All PalmOne now has to do is get serious....
just_little_me @ 7/26/2004 7:07:33 PM #
And what I said is what I heard from a palmOne employee in February at the PalmSource conference. Like I said, I wish it wasn't the case.

Also Hoffman is from Palmsource, not palmOne - and it's palmOne who decide whether an update will be provided for existing devices. And the answer I got was a categoric "no".


JLM.

RE: All PalmOne now has to do is get serious....
JonathanChoo @ 7/27/2004 12:52:45 AM #
OS6 should be able to cut it at 200Mhz but I doubt user experience would be compelling. It would probably feel like an OS4 device. Useable but not fast enough. Once you factor in everything like graphics and how licensees customised the OS, a faster processor is called for. Hoffman was right when he said that faster memory with slower processor could speed up the usage but that's another matter. Memory for embedded devices aren't really making the headlines since there are almost no progress (that we heard off). What we need are DDR, higher clock speed as well as lower latency to clear the bottleneck.

I pretty much doubt OS6 would ever be released for current devices. I don't know how much PalmOne pays PalmSource for the license, but whatever it is, when we bought our T3s and TCs, the price only includes the license for the particular OS. Same problem in the PocketPC world.

--
Psion 5> Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > T/T > HP h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac 75 > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630

RE: All PalmOne now has to do is get serious....
hkklife @ 7/27/2004 9:21:30 AM #
For what it's worth, the latest Mobile PC magazine has a little blurb talking about upgrades not being offered by Sony or PalmOne for current devices to migrate to OS6. It didn't paint a rosier picture for HP or Dell owners either and only mentioned Toshiba (no mention in the article on Toshiba exiting the handheld biz) offering SE upgrades for one model.

I thought it was an interesting read as it pretty much said it was from the horse's mouth at PLMO and I hadn't recalled anyone from there making a definitive statement on OS upgrades yet.

Still, if any OS5 unit is going to see a pay-for-upgrade, it'll be the T3 or the T|C but with all of these C updates lately and no new replacement on the horizon, my $ is on existing C's being offered a $30 upgrade or so (the smaller screen res. would help the CPU push around OS6 with greater relative ease than the T3) and "new" T|Cs shipping this fall with OS6 pre-installed.



RE: All PalmOne now has to do is get serious....
JonathanChoo @ 7/27/2004 3:31:54 PM #
I think the C will be refreshed later this year with the biggest changes 128Mb RAM, 624Mhz and OS6. The way OS6 works (with each app having its own dynamic heap), 128Mb RAM should work well. Other than that, I guess palm1 would follow the same traditions of refreshing their business lines (V to Vx, m505 to m515, T to T2) and not provide much additional stuff. I guess the shell would remain the same as well. Companies like to promote their latest (soon to be released models) on films, but the C was the star of Little Black Book which means the C's shell won't be replaced anytime soon. But that's just speculating...and I am no expert in marketing.

The whole week I was in iPAQ overdose with all those dissapointing models HP released (except the 4700 -but I still love the 19xx formfactor of my 4150). I think we need a leak from Palm1's side. With Sony out of the game (outside Japan), news on hardware releases should be pretty thin...I think its in Palm1's best interest to keep people interested in their platform.

--
Psion 5> Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > T/T > HP h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac 75 > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630

Broke the browser?

StickyC @ 7/30/2004 12:50:21 PM #
Am I the only one that's having troubles with the included web browser after the update? Everything seemed to go OK (it did erase all of my data after the upgrade - I wish they'd said that somewhere), but now, as soon as I try manually entering a URL, I get a Fatal Alert, invalid uniqueID passed. Usually within entering the first or second character of the URL.
All other browsing seems to work fine and I can enter text in web pages no problem, its just typing in a new URL horks it.

RE: Broke the browser?
kita @ 3/13/2005 12:48:56 AM #
I am having this exact same issue.
Did you ever find a resolution for this?

Tungsten C mac address 00:00:00:00:00:00

inziderx @ 7/30/2004 11:57:09 PM #
my mac address has change to 00:00:00:00:00:00 for no apparent reason and when i try to apply the update 3.0 it tells me that the radio module is corrupt and cannot be repaired and wifi is on. any ideas? i live in mexico and i also called custumer support and it was terrible they answer me in argentina and they didnt have a clue of what i was talking about.
can someone help me?

RE: Tungsten C mac address 00:00:00:00:00:00
MountainLogic @ 8/2/2004 12:25:42 PM #
Call Palm tech support. The phone number is on the download page.

RE: Tungsten C mac address 00:00:00:00:00:00
hoopdedoo @ 10/22/2004 7:30:45 PM #
Your PDA has a corrupted MAC Address, which is a known isssue to the Tungsten C. Here are some links to discussions about it:

http://hardware.mcse.ms/message93231.html

http://www.gearbits.com/archives/000055.html

http://reviews.cnet.com/palmOne_Tungsten_C/4852-3127_7-21120743.html?pn=2&ob=1&fb=0


There is an update that prevents corruption of the MAC Address, among other fixes, but if your MAC Address is already corrupted, you can't use it. Here's a link to info on that update:

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=1062


Here is Palm's Contact Page: http://www.palmone.com/us/support/contact/contact_us.html

Unfortunately, they aren't toll-free numbers. Maybe the e-mail contacts will work. I am also of the opinion that Palm needs to fix this issue without charge, even if the device is out of warranty.

Good Luck,

BC

Please help on 3.0 update

ohface @ 9/18/2004 1:13:09 PM #
"The radio mobule is corrput and cannot be repaired. ROM installation aborted. Please contact customer support."

I have tried a soft and hard reset, but it is not working. I have also tried to up date with my WiFi on and off and not working. What is radio module, it this a different part of WiFi?

Please help

Thanks

please email help to ohface@sbcglobal.net

stereo signal on PCB of Tunsten C

pascuale41 @ 10/7/2004 7:22:10 AM #
does anyone know if the complete stereo-channel (left and right channels) is available somewhere on the printed circuit board of the palm tungsten C?


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