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Comments on: Jeff Hawkins Authors New Book, On Intelligence

Jeff Hawkins, Palm Computing founder and palmOne CTO, has published a new book. On Intelligence, discusses Hawkins theory of how the human brain works and explains his thoughts on why computers today are not intelligent and how, based on this new theory, we can begin to build intelligent machines.
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T5 Team

Gekko @ 10/6/2004 3:25:06 PM #

The T5 Team at PalmOne needs to read it!

RE: T5 Team
Strider_mt2k @ 10/6/2004 3:36:40 PM #
Aw man, you stinker.

You got to that line before I could! :D

RE: T5 Team
tooele @ 10/6/2004 8:42:11 PM #
I agree I don't know what they were thinking selling the T5 for $400

RE: T5 Team
whitemiata @ 10/7/2004 9:08:14 AM #
I will not personally be upgrading to the T5 as i have a z71 and like having a camera.

That being said, there has been way too much unjustified criticism of Palm's latest Handheld on this forum, IMHO.

Assuming that it's in fact true that the T5 truly DOES NOT LOSE DATA under any circumstance, I can assure you that for MOST business users, such a feature is FAR more valuable than a voice recorder, WIFI, or a metal case.

Moreover, a BETTER voice recorder than the one included in any handheld can be had for about $50, WIFI is available as an option, but total data protection IS NOT available on any PDA that I know of, Palm or otherwise.

I am a geek like most of you here, but I work with a LOT of non-geeks who have PDAs which they use infrequently.

I can honestly tell you that in the years I've been working in the IT field side-by-side with non-computer types, I've NEVER heard a user complain about a PDA not having WIFI. I've NEVER heard a user complain about the material hte body of hte PDA is made of, I've never heard a user complain about lack of a voice recorder.

But I've heard several times users go crazy because the "FUC###G THING LOST MY DATA"

It may turn out that the T5 only keeps the data in the internal SD card safe, which would be a shame. But if that's not the case, and EVERYTHING on the handheld will survive a hard reset, or complete power drainage, then this feature is HUGE

IN THE REAL WORLD, of course.

Alessandro

RE: T5 Team
KayAU @ 10/7/2004 10:38:02 AM #
You know, you are actually quite right on that point, not loosing data is probably a very attractive feature for many users. And the plastic instead of metal is not the end of the world, if it is a good plastic casing (which, according to the preliminary review on Brighthand, might be the case). The loss of the voice recorder is somewhat more serious, though. Sure, you can buy it as an accessory, but it would certainly not be as convenient as grabbing the Palm, pressing a button and speaking. Being able to record something quickly is usually, at least to me, what makes the voice recorder useful.

But I think the real reason people are pounding the T5 (and I agree it is exaggerated) isn't necessarily that it is a horrible horrible design). I think it's because it is:
*Too little, too late.
*Not a clear upgrade over the T4. It has as many disadvantages as it has advantages when compared to it's predecessor. And that isn't good enough.

Kay

RE: T5 Team
Ou_Boet @ 10/7/2004 10:45:20 AM #
I heartily support the above comment. The T5 may not be a "wonder" device, but I do feel it's one the average user will really like. I covers the amount of RAM issue well, 256MB christ you should all be happy, it retains it's memory after a power off, now we can all throw away those pesty mobile charges and stop living in fear of our batteries draining.

As for Wifi and BT, I truely believe that most PDA users have no need for it. But if you do, this device can have it added through the slot.

All in all, this is the best handheld they have ever produced IMO. It will sell well just as soon as they ease up on the price.

OB

-------------------------------------------------
Any device can have one more useful feature added.

HandEra Moderator at [url="http://www.PalmVenue.com/forum"]PalmVenue[/url]

RE: T5 Team
RSC @ 10/7/2004 2:24:51 PM #
Is *all* data stored in non-volatile flash automatically? I was under the impression that users needed to move files manually from RAM to flash...

RE: T5 Team
radleyp @ 10/7/2004 3:04:36 PM #
Ou Boet, I think you are confused. The objections to this unit come from those, like me, who own a T3, on which it is but a small improvement (if indeed it is any at all). Not losing data is a matter of backup (I have used BackupBuddy VFS for quite some time now), not lost battery power: I have a lot of files on my T3, but the backup weighs in at only ca. 20meg (which is not much on my 512meg card). I backup every day (and sometimes more). I can't believe that you carry around a portable charger. I use Bluetooth a lot (with my Nokia 6820). As for the "average user" he/she will not spend $400. And, unlike you, I don't think this unit will sell well (though a cheaper T3 will, I am sure). Philippe Radley

RE: T5 Team
gfunkmagic @ 10/7/2004 4:27:58 PM #
>>>>>I can honestly tell you that in the years I've been working in the IT field side-by-side with non-computer types, I've NEVER heard a user complain about a PDA not having WIFI. I've NEVER heard a user complain about the material hte body of hte PDA is made of, I've never heard a user complain about lack of a voice recorder...

Well, then you probably weren't talking to a user who paid $400 bucks for a high-end pda then!!! These features are almost default features in other handhelds in this price range on other platforms. That is the basica problem with the T5...PalmOne is trying to explain this by saying the T5 was designed to fullfill a "specific solution" and not just add features, but this is a weak arguement for such an expensive pda. What kind of rationalization is this? Oh, most users don't really need a voice recoder, so lets just omit it...an oh yeah, since they don't need a vibrating alarm, so lets take that out too. What next, do they want to remove the audio-out b/c most users use iPods instead of pdas to listen to music? It seems more like they want to shave features just so they can squeeze more profit from users who no longer have a choice...one fo the worst consequences of Sony leaving the market imo.

If PalmOne was to sell the T5 (i.e, TE2) for $300 bucks max, then alot of people here wouldn't be complaining imo, but instead they're price this as a high end device and thus gouging they loyal user base...

I support http://Tapland.com/

--------------------
GNM

RE: T5 Team
whitemiata @ 10/8/2004 11:32:12 AM #
>>Well, then you probably weren't talking to a user who paid $400 bucks for a high-end pda then!!! These features are almost default features in other handhelds in this price range on other platforms. That is the basica problem with the T5...PalmOne is trying to explain this by saying the T5 was designed to fullfill a "specific solution" and not just add features, but this is a weak arguement for such an expensive pda. What kind of rationalization is this? Oh, most users don't really need a voice recoder, so lets just omit it...an oh yeah, since they don't need a vibrating alarm, so lets take that out too. What next, do they want to remove the audio-out b/c most users use iPods instead of pdas to listen to music? It seems more like they want to shave features just so they can squeeze more profit from users who no longer have a choice...one fo the worst consequences of Sony leaving the market imo.

If PalmOne was to sell the T5 (i.e, TE2) for $300 bucks max, then alot of people here wouldn't be complaining imo, but instead they're price this as a high end device and thus gouging they loyal user base...<<


Ok, let me prefix this by making VERY CLEAR that I'm also a little guy who regardless of my income spends his hard earned money every time he upgrades a PDA, and therefore has HUGE demands on the feature set of a prospective PDA.

That being said... i own a ZIRE71.

Palm made it very clear that Zire is for consumers, Tungsten is for Business.

Now, you can feel free to buy a Tungsten as a consumer, but you cannot expect Palm's marketing policies to *make sense* from a consumer stand point for a product targeted at business.

The first thing you need to forget about is that difference between $400 and $300. It's TOTALLY IMMATERIAL.

If my IT department decides that one PDA is better than another for any reason, $100 is NOT going to stand in the way of the purchase. So if your argument is that at $300 it would be ok... read on.

Now, look at this AGAIN from a business perspective.

You have an executive dude who has his schedule on his Palm, and meeting notes.

He also plays a game or two every once in a while.

It's 3:30 pm, he's playing PengoQuickoLocoGame when his Tungsten T3 Crashes, causing a Hard reset.

Oh wait... his beautiful, metal cased, voice recorder equipped, sliding T3... yeah... it crashes causing a Hard Reset. And don't even try to tell me tat doesn't happen.

one hour later he has a presentation that he needed his data for.

Go ahead and tell him that $100 more than what YOU would pay for a T5 is NOT worht having the PDA restart and have all his data there.

Bleh!

As far as "standard feature on other PDAs" show me ANY other PDA that keeps ALL IT'S MEMORY SAFE.

Alessandro

RE: T5 Team
whitemiata @ 10/8/2004 2:34:56 PM #
In reply to my own post - I just read the preview on Brighthand and it appears that while it would survive a total power drain, the Static Memory would still be wiped out (I'm assuming just the 55mb *standard memory*) by a hard-reset.

That being the case, the specific example I gave would NOT apply.

You can choose wether to ridicule my overall view for THAT, or you can acknowledge that while a hard reset may NOT be surviveable, battery-drain would. And moreover, assuming that data on the internal drive IS in fact safe from hard-resets, the fact that such memory is included will make users' data much more safe.

Yes, you and I own SD cards, but I can tell you one thing for a fact: I know 6 people who have a Zire71. Only 3 of us have SD cards, and the two others who do, DO because I went on and on with them about the benefits in having it.

At any rate, I don't wish anyone to get the impression I'm trying to say the T5 is a quantum leap over the T3. It's not.

It prolly will have a better battery life (and considering that I think my Z71's battery life [enormously better than a T3] is pathetic...) and it does have some advantages, for instance absence of the demented slider, and the weird button layout (call me crazy but I like the T1/T2 layout much better).

One last note:

The TE is the most successful Tungstent to date, NO DOUBT because of it's fantastic price/value ratio.

I agree the T5 for the most part doesn't match up in that area.

As far as the name... many folks keep saying it should be called the TE2.

TE in many people's minds means "Tungsten Economical" I dunno what it's really supposed to mean.

Personally assuming Palm WILL release all you hypersalivating folks's dream Tungsten in the spring, I don't think it was a bad move on their part to call this one T5, and maybe call the next one T6 or T7.

That of course, assumes there WILL BE a quantum upgrade to the T3 that hopefully blends what's great about T3/T5 and adds OS6, WIFI and all the other cool toys you guys all want :-)

Alessandro

ebook?

kezza @ 10/6/2004 3:39:37 PM #
I find it odd (and annoying!) that this isn't available as an ebook. What gives, Jeff?

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com
RE: ebook?
Rhauer @ 10/6/2004 6:17:43 PM #
Absoultely!!! How can it not be an ebook.

RE: ebook?
Haber @ 10/6/2004 8:12:20 PM #
My thoughts exactly. Although maybe it needs time to skim the top, ie those who are willing to pay more for new, hardcovers?

RE: ebook?
kezza @ 10/7/2004 11:29:25 AM #
Publishers usually price ebooks at only a small discount off of whatever edition is currently in print. For example, a new hardcover book is roughly $35, an ebook of the same book at the same time will usually be around $30, with the potential for further discount due to promotions and the like. When the book comes out in paperback for $10 the ebook price drops to around $9, and so on. The only thing I can think of is that the publisher doesn't do ebooks, which is just annoying.
Anybody who wants to read this as an ebook should write to eReader (or your favorite ebook store) and the publisher requesting the title as an ebook. Here's the link for the eReader title request form:
http://www.ereader.com/support/contact/feedback?topic=requests

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com
RE: ebook?
VisorMiser @ 10/10/2004 6:57:39 AM #
The reason's simple:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


the VisorMiser
_____________________________________________________________________________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. -- Sir Winston Churchill

Hawkins book now e-readable
mikecane @ 10/20/2004 9:35:26 AM #

You can start by...

Wollombi @ 10/6/2004 4:06:40 PM #
If he wants to pontificate on intelligence, maybe he should start with pa1mOne, which has shown a distinct lack of said intellectual prowess lately.

In other words, don't insult MY intelligence by attempting to sell me a mid-range product at high-end prices, with fewer features than any other high-end handheld device on the market.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: You can start by...
asiayeah @ 10/6/2004 9:49:50 PM #
Maybe they design the T5 and its features by using an articifical intelligent program. As Hawkins pointed out, nowadays' computers are not as smart as our brains. ;-) The best the computers can come up with is a T5.

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

Less book writing & more inovation CTO

jjunk @ 10/6/2004 6:08:19 PM #
Dear Jeff, whilst you were away, your product has langished and other firms have continued innovating. I'm glad to hear your book is finished.

NOW GET BACK TO WORK!

RE: Less book writing & more inovation CTO
DevPOV @ 10/6/2004 7:16:39 PM #
Truely.

RE: Less book writing & more inovation CTO
RhinoSteve @ 10/11/2004 2:32:07 PM #
Junk,

You are so right there. While Jeff is going off on his own pet projets, he did not hand off the "Hawkins Way" of simplicity and features that he is able to mix so well in products like the Treo. The T5 screams "Productized by Committee" where not a single master stroke exists. I honestly think more time was put into PowerPoint presentations than engineering hours to get this product out the door.

The T5 is up there with the mundane early 90s Mac's that didn't go anywhere but a spurt of sales that fizzeled quickly that didn't build any groundswell support.

And as for your book Jeff, it is interested but I think you will learn more about how the mind works from the works of Budda and St. John of the Cross than looking at the latest output from an electron microscope, nuclear magnetic resonance scanner or superconducting brain scanner.

The mind is not of the material universe and is in fact outside of the limited jurisdiction of Science. When you realize you are more than an electrochemical reaction, then you will start to make some progress.

The solution to the T5 fiasco may be in his hands...

peitron @ 10/6/2004 7:16:13 PM #
Talk about intelligence. The guy has sold Palm to 3Com twice (first Palm, then Handspring). The solution to the lack of creativity and innovation (a.k.a. the “TT5”) at PalmOne may require Hawkins to go out and created a new PDA company he may later sell to 3Com.

_____________________________________________
IIIx > m130 > m515 > T|T > T|T3
"Why should I care about posterity? What's posterity ever done for me?" - Groucho Marx
RE: The solution to the T5 fiasco may be in his hands...
JonathanChoo @ 10/7/2004 5:38:41 AM #
Get your facts right!

Palm Computing was bought by US Robotics which in turn was bought by 3Com in 1997. In fact the reason why Hawkins left Palm was because of 3Com's meddling. He wanted Palm to be spun off from US Robotics before the deal. Ironically after Jeff left, Palm Inc finally spun off from 3Com in 2000.

Palm SG (hardware part) finally acquired Handspring last year to form palmOne.

Generic PDA > 5mx > Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > m550 > h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630 > K700i

Interesting subject

KayAU @ 10/6/2004 8:57:34 PM #
The subject is interesting enough (seing as I share his interests in human intelligence and computing)...wonder if it's any good? Has anybody read anything he has written before?

Kay

Some thoughts

icesalmon1 @ 10/6/2004 9:31:10 PM #
who knows? Since he had taken over the job for quite a while, may be the whole idea of TE2 becomes TT5 is his idea.


RE: Some thoughts
KayAU @ 10/6/2004 10:01:02 PM #
Ah...I was wondering how long it would take before someone posted a "The T5 is really a TE2"-message.

Kay

Bleh

tthiel @ 10/7/2004 4:46:41 AM #
Quit writing books and author a decent device instead!

RE: Bleh
Token User @ 10/7/2004 9:14:33 AM #
Treo 600/650?

I'd take a guess and say that the current T series and Zire series were well under way an in development before Jeff came back onboard.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a new line in the wings ready to replace the T series that is more of a communicator style device to launch PalmOS 6 that Hawkins (and the ex-BeOS team) have had a far greater influence on.

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

Good thinking

e_tellurian @ 10/8/2004 3:57:21 PM #
What an incredible coincidence WE were just thinking too!

Perhaps many people free to think = intelligence too?

Perhaps IQ = innovation quotient = many free people building in a prosperous democracy of sharing the wealth by choice.

It is wonderful to see people investing in thinking too.

Nice work,

E-T



e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

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