MobileInfocenter

Comments on: Gartner Says WinCE Out-Shipped the Palm OS in Q3

Worldwide PDA shipments exceeded 2.8 million units, as Gartner Claims that for the first time Microsoft Windows CE licensees out shipped the Palm OS for the first time. Yet palmOne still retains the leading spot during a declining quarter.
Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (117 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Comments Closed Comments Closed
This article is no longer accepting new comments.

Down

Not sure what this really means...

JohnM @ 11/12/2004 1:27:25 PM #
Hi,

I've seen all kinds of artciles like this recently. I remember
seeing the question of "what is considered a PDA?" being raised,
but I'm starting to wonder what "ships" means. Does shipping a
handheld to a store to be potentially be purchased constitute
a device that has "shipped"? Or does shipped mean actually
purchased (and not ever returned)?

John

Independent Palm Software Developer

RE: Not sure what this really means...
CaptMyCapt @ 11/12/2004 1:55:35 PM #
Excellent question. Be that as it may, at the end of the day the results are the same. If the definition of shipments has been the same, year over year, then it doesn't matter. It's apples to apples. PalmOne is hurting, and WinCE appears to be in a happy place.

I, Captain

"You will never make progress trying to sail into the wind - chart your course!"

RE: Not sure what this really means...
RhinoSteve @ 11/12/2004 2:11:14 PM #
"Ship" means sent to a warehouse for distrubution in these terms. It does not mean shipped to a paying customer. This is the latest recipe in book cooking that Gartner has done trying to promote Palm OS.

Now if you look at real and valid statistics like "Unreturned units delivered to customers that paid within thirty to sixty days." Then you have something meaningful. With that, you see Palm OS way ahead of WinCE devices since WinCE / PocketPC deivces have a very high return rate.

More spin form the Microsoft lapdogs in my opinon.

RE: Not sure what this really means...
Rome @ 11/12/2004 2:14:37 PM #
I think that windows CE includes several different operating systems, such as Pocket PC, Windows Mobile, and Windows CE. Symbol technology mainly sells industrial type of PDAs. Not to mention that this survey didn't include any Treo sales or perhaps other Palm OS smartphone sales.....but Gartner chose to include RIMM's Blackberry devices. Go figure!!!



RE: Not sure what this really means...
AyDb @ 11/12/2004 2:50:27 PM #
"With that, you see Palm OS way ahead of WinCE devices since WinCE / PocketPC deivces have a very high return rate."

Funny, I've never seen anything to indicate that PPC has any higher of a return rate than Palm. I suspect that you're pulling this 'fact' out of your never-ending stash of platform bias. If you've got actual evidence, please present it. If your backup is the same unsubstaniated tripe about how horrible PocketPC is to use that every other Palm crusader around here spouts without ever having touched a PocketPC, please don't bother.

By the way, PocketPC and Windows Mobile are two names for the same thing, and sales of actual raw "Windows CE" devices are next to non-existant. These numbers aren't faked, kids.

RE: Not sure what this really means...
ganoe @ 11/12/2004 3:22:39 PM #
Yes, the use of the term PDA is rather open as far as what devices this might include. Windows CE runs of plenty of devices that could be called PDAs, but not be what people on this site would traditionally call a PDA.

What it really means is that PalmSource and PalmOne need to get their butts in gear about getting some OS 6 devices out.

Probably the best comparison would be to take the PalmOne number (748,950) and compare it to the HP + Dell shipped numbers (877,413), but clearly there are some other Pocket PC devices in that "other" category.

RE: Not sure what this really means...
EdH @ 11/12/2004 3:33:39 PM #
Now if you look at real and valid statistics like "Unreturned units delivered to customers that paid within thirty to sixty days." Then you have something meaningful. With that, you see Palm OS way ahead of WinCE devices since WinCE / PocketPC deivces have a very high return rate.

Please provide links to these "valid statistics" that indicate that rougly 38.1611290634408% of Windows CE devices are returned and 0% of Palm OS devices are, because that is what it would take for CE to fall to 850,820 units, one unit behind PalmOS.

More spin form the Microsoft lapdogs in my opinon.

Maybe you are just dizzy from your own spinning?

RE: Not sure what this really means...
AyDb @ 11/12/2004 6:08:06 PM #
"Yes, the use of the term PDA is rather open as far as what devices this might include. Windows CE runs of plenty of devices that could be called PDAs, but not be what people on this site would traditionally call a PDA."

Uh, like what? Their definition was strict enough that the Treo didn't make the cut, so MS Smartphones certainly didn't, and there are no "PDA" devices running WinCE other than PPCs.

RE: Not sure what this really means...
ganoe @ 11/14/2004 2:18:07 AM #
> Uh, like what? Their definition was strict enough that the Treo
> didn't make the cut, so MS Smartphones certainly didn't, and
> there are no "PDA" devices running WinCE other than PPCs.

Thousands upon thousands of Windows CE devices that are used in factory, warehouse, retail and other commercial settings often for tracking inventory, scanning barcodes, etc. They are counting Symbol's devices that fit this category, so I have little doubt that a large percentage of the "other" 500,000 unaccounted for Windows CE devices in this table are also of that type.

RE: Not sure what this really means...
grg @ 11/14/2004 2:21:44 PM #
I wonder how many more "researches" will Micro$oft need to sponsor in order to extinguish Palm from the map. We 've seen that before. Older users that is. There is a tendency nowdays to be pro-Micro$oft; youngsters have never heard of anything else. We now have Micro$oft zealots which sounds very funny considering it was once heretic.

RE: Not sure what this really means...
jj123 @ 11/15/2004 6:20:16 PM #
In the past, much of these negative comments were from unwlcome PocketPC lurkers spreading ill-will to Palm people. They were insanely jealous that PocketPC were all pieces of junk. PocketPC has improved over the years.

The interesting thing now is that criticism is now coming from Palm afficionados. The majority of the people raising concerns are current palm users. This is different! Now Palm users are starting to envy WinMobile devices (BT, Wifi, + voice recorder, etc...). This is a startling change.

I have been a Palm loyalist/fanatic for 6+ years. I used to change PDAs every 8 months or so. I am now considering a switch to Windows Mobile as I do not want to spend money to buy the T5 (innovation + "wow" factor - missing functions just does not add up for me). I have been unhappily using my Tungsten C for its wifi. I don't want something (SD) sticking out of my PDA nor do I want to carry it in a large case (Enfora) or use an unsupported device (Sony). There are no viable Palm PDAs with wifi.

Also, do you remember when Palm service was actually great?

The problems are not the doings of MS. The problems lies fully in PalmOne and Palm Source.

This is a sad day.


The ship is sinking!

RE: Not sure what this really means...
AyDb @ 11/15/2004 6:24:03 PM #
“Thousands upon thousands of Windows CE devices that are used in factory, warehouse, retail and other commercial settings often for tracking inventory, scanning barcodes, etc. They are counting Symbol's devices that fit this category, so I have little doubt that a large percentage of the "other" 500,000 unaccounted for Windows CE devices in this table are also of that type.”

Symbol isn’t selling hundreds of thousands of WinCE devices, as you can see on the chart. In any event, they switched their new units from raw CE to PPC. More cost effective to develop for a single platform, for them and their customers.

Most of the unaccounted for PPCs are probably the various rebrands of the HTC XDA line, and other minor PPC Phone Editions from overseas, as well as the local PocketPC market in Europe. It’s not like it’s a totally unaccountable number--Medion alone probably accounts for 10% of it, and rebrands of HTC phones another 30-50%.

Trend

Gekko @ 11/12/2004 2:02:28 PM #

The trend is clear, Palm is screwed.

Nice job, Nagel & Co.



RE: Trend
RhinoSteve @ 11/12/2004 2:15:33 PM #
Not really Gekko, the T5 is set up for a near perfect Christmas season selling. PalmOne and PalmSource is a good stock buy. IMNSO, nice prospecting now.
RE: Trend
Gekko @ 11/12/2004 2:31:57 PM #

Never try to catch a falling knife.



RE: Trend
hkklife @ 11/12/2004 2:36:16 PM #
Given its amount of bugs, I'd say that the T5 is akin to a RUSTY knife--one that's sharp in all of the wrong places.

A shame that Christmas '04 is going to end up being such an underwhelming one for P1, as they did pretty well this time last year.



RE: Trend
neuron @ 11/12/2004 2:37:08 PM #
Both Gartner and IDC are sponsed by Microsoft. I don't believe these data. Palm OS still dominate the market, I didn't see anybody around me using PPC.

RE: Trend
RhinoSteve @ 11/12/2004 2:38:42 PM #
Bet anyone good money that PalmOne will have a good selling season. Email me and lets set up the PayPal accounts. Put your money where your mouth is!
RE: Trend
AyDb @ 11/12/2004 2:55:46 PM #
"Both Gartner and IDC are sponsed by Microsoft."

So is PalmSource.

"I don't believe these data. Palm OS still dominate the market, I didn't see anybody around me using PPC."

That's not a statistically valid sampling. Gartner offers hard data to back up their numbers, and it's generally considered to be a sign of fanaticism to faith in the presence of conflicting facts.

RE: Trend
AyDb @ 11/12/2004 3:00:54 PM #
Gah. Shouldn't type so fast. My brain was getting ahead of my fingers. I meant to say "fanaticism to CLING TO faith in the presence of conflicting facts."

RE: Trend
abosco @ 11/12/2004 3:35:42 PM #
RhinoSteve, PalmOne's product lineup is lackluster at absolute best. I've been a Palm OS enthusiast for three years now, but that won't cloud my vision when I'm presented with a boring product. The T5 offers nothing revolutionary, nothing updated, nothing that could possibly present itself as being better than the competition. Who pays $400 for a PDA that doesn't even have a voice recorder these days? This is serious. It means PalmOne is trying to focus on Smartphones more than PDA's now.

I'll put $10 on the fact that PalmOne will not have as good of a Christmas selling season as last year, and even so far as not as good as HP's this year. If their T5 is their best shot, it's FUBAR. Stands for everything I'm against in the PDA realm.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637

RE: Trend
LiveFaith @ 11/12/2004 4:05:36 PM #
Where's Baghdad Bob when we need him?!?!?!?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Trend
a3 @ 11/12/2004 4:11:19 PM #
Bosco:

I have a TH55 and I am seriously considering a T5. I like that Palm. Sure it could be better, or cheaper, or whatever... the point is that you can not overule it just because you do not like it. Likewise, if I like it, that does not mean that it is the ultimate PDA.

Can money produce THE product? Microsoft (Windows media center, PPC and some failures) seems to know the answer...

____________________________________________________
Current fan of a 320x480 tablet shaped Palm with built in BT+Wifi for less than US$450

RE: Trend
JarJar @ 11/12/2004 6:48:44 PM #
Don't just blame Nagel, much of what is happening today is the legacy of folks like Carl Yankowski. Back in the day, they spent most of the company's money and good will pumping the hype engine and didn't really know much about engineering. (He's a marketing guy--what do you expect?) The company was about half vice-presidents of something and had hundreds of redundant employees who didn't really contribute to the device. The most intelligent brain power guys spent their energies devising how to break out of 3Com, splitting Palm into two companies and playing corporate games of this sort. About ten guys truly worked on the device.

Today, both PalmSource and PalmOne are doing *some* things correctly, it is just too little too late.

RE: Trend
ChiA @ 11/12/2004 7:18:45 PM #
It's disgraceful that what Apple could achieve in 1997 - putting a voice recording microphone into its Newton - PalmOne is incapable of doing with it's top of the range handheld in 2004.

It's disgraceful that Acer can put a microphone and Bluetooth in its handheld for £180 whilst PalmOne's T5 top of the range handheld can't offer a microphone at £260.

I am definitely NOT buying the abomination that is the T5, which is let's face it the ugly result of a Tunsten E frankensteined with a 256Mb memory card and the screen from a T3.

I'm going to sit in the UK sulking until 2005, when PalmOne finally finds it in its grace to unleash the Treo 650 in Europe. That with a 256Mb card will give me the much needed voice recording AND kill two birds with one stone for me - mobile and handheld.

RE: Trend
Gekko @ 11/12/2004 7:28:10 PM #
>"Don't just blame Nagel"

YES I BLAME NAGEL! How much market share has PalmOS lost under his watch?

Cobalt = Copland.

The reason the CEO gets paid the big bucks is because he or she has the ultimate responsibility. The buck truly stops with the CEO. There is no one else to blame if things go wrong. There are no excuses that will cover up the mistakes.



RE: Trend
RhinoSteve @ 11/12/2004 10:22:39 PM #
The T5 offers nothing revolutionary, nothing updated, nothing that could possibly present itself as being better than the competition.

There is your big mistake! You think the mass market wants something revolutionary. That is not true. Only net geeks like you want new stuff right now. We are just comming out of recession. The mass market is not as techo-hungry as you.

The USB Flash Drive + PDA combo is going to sell very, very well. As George Carlon said (while he doesn't bitch about Bush) a while ago, "Put to things together that has never been together before, and lot of schmucks will buy it." Viola! We have a great combination here.

And the one thing NONE of you techo-addicts-never-gets-laid-crowd can see is that having a Flash drive in the T5 will do the following:

* Limit HotSync and the need for conduits.
* Have a user carry around a Palm device more since it is not just for running Palm apps anymore -- it is a digital wallet!
* Has a potential to run MULITIPLE OSes on a single device.

Please take your head out of your "I want an ultimate Palm device" butt and see what the real market is please!

... or all of you at Star Trek conventions or watching Anime at home too much?

RE: Trend
AyDb @ 11/13/2004 3:45:22 AM #
RS--Project much?

People don't want new features, you say? Wow! I guess the sales of all those smartphones, digital video recorders, cutting-edge laptops, and bleeding-edge desktops are all figments of our collective imaginations. They should have just put a USB flash memory key into an old VHS recorder--that REALLY would have sold!

PocketPCs are piling on the features: removable batteries, WiFi, dual wireless, dual slots, VGA, CIR, and a dozen other things. They're not hurting in sales. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.

The evidence doesn't support your BS assertion. The majority of users want more features, better, and cheaper. It's the same as any other product.

RE: Trend
a3 @ 11/13/2004 5:43:19 AM #
Some questions:

- Why o why don't we all change to PPC if they have all the best stuff (allegedly that is).
- Why o why am I starting to look over to the PPC info more frecuently?
- Why o why everytime I look at the Axims and new iPaqs I find their form factor so repelling?
- Why o why do we think that talking "BIG" will make our points more valid?

____________________________________________________
Current fan of a 320x480 tablet shaped Palm with built in BT+Wifi for less than US$450

RE: Trend
manekineko @ 11/13/2004 2:02:09 PM #
"And the one thing NONE of you techo-addicts-never-gets-laid-crowd can see is that having a Flash drive in the T5 will do the following:
...
* Limit HotSync and the need for conduits.
* Have a user carry around a Palm device more since it is not just for running Palm apps anymore -- it is a digital wallet!
* Has a potential to run MULITIPLE OSes on a single device.
...
... or all of you at Star Trek conventions or watching Anime at home too much?"

I always love it when irony rears it's ugly head. Yes, I think that the average consumer has a big problem with conduits, just as I'm sure he knows what they are. Digital wallets that still need a cable, when thumb drives are smaller than just the cable, when 1 gig goes for just 50 bucks. And multiple OS's I know that's what I've been demanding of my handheld since day one! But I must just be out of touch with the needs of the consumer due to all of my Star Trekking.

RE: Trend
Gekko @ 11/13/2004 2:16:17 PM #

Hey RhinoNerd - Not everyone here is a nerd.

RE: Trend
ChiA @ 11/13/2004 4:43:20 PM #
" There is your big mistake! You think the mass market wants something revolutionary. That is not true. Only net geeks like you want new stuff right now. "

Yea, a microphone which PDAs have had since 1997 is just too revolutionary for PalmOne's top of the range PDA seven years later in 2004.

And RhinoSteve, as far as our being the "techo-addicts-never-gets-laid-crowd", I think my wife speaks for most of us here when she tells you where you can shove yours!

Besides, your resorting to belittling attacks on the posters here merely demonstrates that you've run out of arguments for your case.

Even if we were the "techo-addicts-never-gets-laid-crowd" how is it relevant to the fact that PalmOne have taken steps backward with their top of the line handheld?

You can deny that the T5 is mediocore for the money asked, just as Palm denied the m505 had too dim a screen when it was released. Well, the T5 is out there now for people to make their choice. The Gartner study seems to suggest people are already making their choice.

RE: Trend
abosco @ 11/13/2004 5:31:44 PM #
RS, if PalmOne has been making all the right decisions as you've been implying, they wouldn't be bleeding marketshare. They are. That obviously proves all of your points wrong.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637
RE: Trend
Gekko @ 11/13/2004 5:37:05 PM #

Bosco - Post more.



RE: Trend
Foo Fighter @ 11/13/2004 6:18:18 PM #
>> "Only net geeks like you want new stuff right now."

Ah..the Adventures of Baron Von Munchausen continues. Rhino, only net geeks like you are buying PDAs at all, in case you haven't noticed. The average consumer doesn't want them, or need them. The hottest selling gadget(s) this holiday season isn't going to be a PDA, it will be consumer gear such as iPods, PVRs, game consoles, HDTVs, digital cameras, etc. Handhelds have become marginalized, and only a blind Palm zealot like yourself could possibly believe that PalmOne is winning this fight against Microsoft, as its market share continues to decline while Pocket PC grows.

But then again you're also the same person who said Pocket PC put countless startup companies out of business (without providing names or any valid proof), and that the Tungsten C is the hottest selling wireless PDA on the market; both laughable claims.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Please be nice to BubbaSteve
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/13/2004 7:09:25 PM #
He's still dazed after receiving a SEVERE biotchslapping here:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7267#99831



Obviously, BubbaSteve would benefit from our support in his time of need. Send your best wishes to him and his sweet moonshine-drinkin', brawlin', toothless, poker playin' 14 year old wife.

Remember, BubbaSteve: We're here for you, little buddy.



Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Trend
RoadKnight @ 11/15/2004 3:38:02 PM #
To me, the one thing this proves more than anything else is that some of you guys here run the smallest ladies bridge circle in town...


RE: Trend
RhinoSteve @ 11/16/2004 7:32:17 PM #
This is one of more fun threads. "Bitchslapping"??? you would never get a hand on me nor walk away if we met face to face.

Anyhow ... this group is about six sigma from the typical PDA consumer base. Those with valid a marketing background knows this.

I stick by my words. You guys are skewed from your own personal views and don't know this market beyond internet posts and geek gathering trying to one up each other in expensive toy collections. A few of you may be get laid, but most of you don't. I still predict that the T5 will do well this Christmas. The "PDA and Flas drive" combo in its marketing is a very smart move.

I also predict we will see a Palm OS 6 device this spring as soon as the major third party apps are complete. That is what is keeping it back and not hardware engineering.

Copeland died mostly due to lackluster apps from the developer community and Microsoft not porting its Office Suite to it. The analogy is not the best here. And then there was MASH ... sigh!

Once the first Palm OS 6 devices are consumed and digested from you nerds, then we will get a good group of third party apps over the summer of 2005; as you all code and don't get a tan. By Christmas 2005, the next generation of Palm OS 6 devices will be out. We will see dual Bluetooth and WiFi embedded and you clowns will find something else to bitch about.

I predict you all will bitch about a lack of Bluetooth 2.0 support or there is no USB Master option on Multi-Connector. LOL!!!

RE: Trend
svrontis @ 11/17/2004 5:59:32 AM #
Amen to that, brother. Even some geeks (ie, those of the less rabid variety) are starting to appreciate the value of the T5. Take a look at some of the comments on this thread over at 1src.com -

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=73776#post73776

(Forgive the long URL - never have been able to get the hang of the TinyURL service!)

RE: Trend
RhinoSteve @ 11/17/2004 1:15:28 PM #
Road and Sv, you have it right. I guess they do this after they get bored listening to Marlyn Manson.

Taboo subject - Microsoft buys PalmSource.

jlbunting @ 11/12/2004 3:29:12 PM #
This could a taboo subject but what if Microsoft bought PalmSource.

This would eliminate the competition and maybe Microsoft would produce a better OS with the help of PalmSource.

Of course.. this would never happen.

RE: Taboo subject - Microsoft buys PalmSource.
orol @ 11/12/2004 3:43:37 PM #
heh, that would be total waste of money :)

palmsource will die slowly by itself, MS doesn't need to do anything :)

RE: Taboo subject - Microsoft buys PalmSource.
RhinoSteve @ 11/17/2004 6:32:34 PM #
The SEC would never allow a Microsoft purchase of PalmSource.
RE: Taboo subject - Microsoft buys PalmSource.
Gekko @ 11/17/2004 6:42:40 PM #

Not the SEC. The US Dept. of Justice/Antitrust Division would not allow it.



Full of spin

vesther @ 11/12/2004 3:55:36 PM #
Taken that Gartner and IDG are both sponsored by Microsoft, I say that this "WinCE Outshipped Palm OS" is just an attempt for M$ to spin the facts. Gartner is basically paid by Microsoft to deceive us from the truth--Gartner Research and IDG are just full of lies because mainly of their M$-biased behavior--this is totally untrue IMO. I'd rather see the facts rather than M$ spinning this out.

I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!
RE: Full of spin
AyDb @ 11/12/2004 6:10:49 PM #
"Taken that Gartner and IDG are both sponsored by Microsoft,"

I say again, so is PalmSource. You want to accuse THEM of shilling for MS? I'm sure that you could find money from any number of different major companies in Gartner. They are, after all, a market research firm. Companies pay them to do research on the market. It's that simple. I suspect you could find PalmSource or PalmOne money in there, too.

"I say that this "WinCE Outshipped Palm OS" is just an attempt for M$ to spin the facts. Gartner is basically paid by Microsoft to deceive us from the truth--Gartner Research and IDG are just full of lies because mainly of their M$-biased behavior--this is totally untrue IMO. I'd rather see the facts rather than M$ spinning this out."

There is no 'spin' other than the simple fact--Windows outsold Palm by a significant margin. Out of curiousity, will you believe it if WM outsells Palm next quarter too, and the quarter after that? What exactly constitutes 'proof' if you're unwilling to look at the numbers? PalmSource/PalmOne are losing because the former has screwed up the OS development and failed to attract new licensees, while the latter has ignored customer desires and cranked out inferior, overpriced paperweights. So long as the two Palms are insulated by this kind of near-cultish apologia, they'll never break out of the spiral and actually compete. Hopefully losing first place to MS will be the shock they need--if not, it might take HP removing PalmOne from the #1 individual seller to do that.

RE: Full of spin
dsaroff @ 11/15/2004 11:06:28 AM #
Could you tell me HOW you know that Gartner/IDC are "sponsored" by Microsoft? From what I know that is bullsh*t. Gartner has very strict standards of impartiality. It's business model is based on that.

Frankly, speaking as a Palm fan for over 7 years, I feel you are whistling in the dark. What's happening to Palm reminds me of what happened to WordPerfect. Proponents making the same defensive responses to gradually loss of market share AND inferiority of features.

If I could get a PPC that ran Palm OS, I would. The ONLY thing that keeps me with Palm1 is the OS and the apps available. From a hardware perspective (which is what Palm1, not PalmSource, is selling), Palm1 is simply on longer competitive.

Stop blaming the messanger and start recognizing that the only area Palm1 is competative is in smart phones. And, frankly, if they continue to lose sale in PDAs, they may not have the money to invest in smart phones (what happened to Handspring).

RE: Full of spin
orb2069 @ 11/15/2004 11:07:09 AM #
Gartner has been saying that WinCE was 'better' than Palm since they started doing reviews - Even back when it was startlingly clear that saying so was obvious bias/shillage. When the absolutely couldn't cook the numbers any more in their favor, they would spice their reports up with comments like "Although Microsoft only controls 13% of the market, it grew .0003% this quarter - Palm had better keep an eye on them!"

Why is THIS time so much more relevant/accurate than all the others? Or maybe they just took a hint from this administration and rigged the actual polling mechanism.


1000->Personal->IRUpgrade->TRGPro->HE330->Treo 180

RE: Full of spin
dsaroff @ 11/15/2004 1:38:38 PM #
Seems to be a lot of people 'rigging' the numbers against Palm. I'm afraid, based on the number of different organizations reporting the loss of market share, I think your paranoid theory is off-base.

Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the research firms assessment of which is better (I agree, I think the Palm OS is better for my needs), it doesn't mean the metrics are wrong.

If you need to feel angry at anyone, maybe it should be PalmSource and Palm1.

PalmSource, due to its totally lack of ability to license the OS (and why the HECK is no one introducing OS6--what's wrong with that product).

Palm1, because (and this is coming from a LONG time Palm bigot) it has gone from releasing good, stable, dependable products at a good price to over priced (T5), under featured (sorry--no WIFI??? except the TC and high end model without voice, vibrating alarms or a CRADLE???) and with poor quality control. The latter has even caused me (Palmoid of 7 years) to look at the Dark Side, because of the gradually increasing quality issues:

Pilot 5000-->none
Handspring VDX-->1
Tungsten t1-->2
Tungsten t2-->3
Tungestn t3-->none so far.

RE: Full of spin
AyDb @ 11/15/2004 6:29:50 PM #
“Could you tell me HOW you know that Gartner/IDC are "sponsored" by Microsoft?”

As I recall, Microsoft buys market research reports from them, the same as any other company they Gartner or IDC does business with. That’s what they claim biases the research.

/me rolls eyes

Gotta say, your post is dead on.

RE: Full of spin
whitemiata @ 11/15/2004 11:54:31 PM #
I don't think anything is rigged.

However at the same time I refuse to accept the idea that the Treo 600 is not being counted.

I know plenty of people who used to have a $400 PDA and a free phone who upgraded their PDA to the Treo 600.

IMHO at the price-point and feature-point, the Treo should CLEARLY be listed as a PDA.

Why is it that a WIFI or BLUETOOTH radio doesn't take a PDA out of the count but a Cellular Radio does?

I don't know what the Treo numbers were and I'm sure that even WITH the TREO PalmOne would be behind, but not as much.

Alessandro

Blah blah blah

mikecane @ 11/12/2004 4:10:06 PM #
I say wait until 1Q 2005. Then you'll see hp consoldiate their tidal wave of PPCs to just 3, if not 2, models, due to poor sales.

And watch how many of these latest PPC vendors exit the market too. (First Toshiba flees the US; next, Europe; for example.)

That said, it's not like I have any faith in p1 to save their own neck!

Palm BadNewsCenter

batmon @ 11/12/2004 4:18:31 PM #
We should register a domain name called www.palmbadnewscenter.com. All I heard for the past months are bad news, bad news, and bad news from this site.

I am waiting to get a new Palm because I am still using my m505. Maybe I should start looking at some other devices. :-(

RE: Palm BadNewsCenter
abosco @ 11/12/2004 7:36:06 PM #
You're right! This site should be all about praise for PalmSource and PalmOne! Even when they screw up! Great idea!!

This site has been sharing bad news recently because that's the only news there is as the moment. Sony exits, PalmOne pulls out of China, no new major licensees, diminishing marketshare, WinCE takeover, and lackluster products. Please show me what kind of news this site should be reporting instead?

I can see it now: Sony exits PDA market - NEW VERSION OF BEJEWELED RELEASED TO MASS HYSTERIA AND BUYING FRENZY

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637

RE: Palm BadNewsCenter
batmon @ 11/12/2004 10:00:48 PM #
That's exactly my point. Palm in dead... :-(

Kudos to Ryan

Gekko @ 11/12/2004 4:42:28 PM #

Thanks for reporting the good, the bad, AND the ugly.

RE: Kudos to Ryan
AyDb @ 11/12/2004 6:38:27 PM #
Hell yeah. It shows that this place still has some fire in it. Real news, instead of press releases. Three cheers! Maybe together we can give PLMO/PSRC a big kick-in-the-ass wakeup call.

Can't vouch for the numbers but...

angerson @ 11/12/2004 4:29:51 PM #
I just switched from PalmOS to PPC. I'm a longtime Palm user, started out with the Palm III and have owned 6 Palms since then. I really like the Palm OS and, as a Mac user it's generally been the only thing supported on my end. The point remains, I've been very happy.

The trouble is, I'd like to have both Wifi & Bluetooth to help me stay in touch with my customers. My T3 fills the Bluetooth niche just fine however I'm covered in Wifi at least 75% of my day so it's just smarter to use it than to pay for GPRS on my cell via Bluetooth.

My options on the Palm side were buy a Wifi card and lose storage space or wait for the latest offering that, I think everyone expected, would have both WiFi and Bluetooth (plus the new OS). As it turns out the T5 ended up being a downgrade, at least for me, with a hefty price tag to boot. Combine that with PalmSource's new and improved lack of Mac support and it was time to go shopping outside the world of Palm.

After a week or so of reading reviews I settled on a Dell Axim X30. It's got a 300 MHZ processor, WiFi, Bluetooth and a clean industrial design that appeals to the Mac user in me. I grabbed it for $160 (refurbished) from Dell. That's nearly half the price of the Palm and twice the features.

Do I like it? The hardware is great, I'm really quite pleased -especially for the price. The OS on the other hand, well while it technically gets the job done it's made in standard Microsoft fashion (eg. 5 clicks to turn of a program) so it leaves a bit to be desired. So much so that I'd go as far to say it somewhat hobbles an otherwise outstanding handheld.

Even so I did switch. My need for low cost + functionality finally outweighed elegance -and that says a lot coming from a Mac user. Do I believe the numbers? Sure, I'm living proof of the data.



http://DigiSquid.com">DigiSquid Studios web design

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Surur @ 11/12/2004 5:04:14 PM #
----------------------
The OS on the other hand, well while it technically gets the job done it's made in standard Microsoft fashion (eg. 5 clicks to turn of a program) so it leaves a bit to be desired. So much so that I'd go as far to say it somewhat hobbles an otherwise outstanding handheld.
-----------------------
This is actually a Palmisism. Microsoft decided that their model of minimising programs instead of closing them was the way they wanted it to work, and decided to make it as hard as possible to close a program. They also aim the device more at business (at least I think that explains the horrors of connection manager).

The good news is that there is plenty of freeware or shareware to customise the device the way you like it, such as taskmanagers (like pocketplus) that will give you a REAL close button, and today screen launchers like tdlaunch (which should make old palmistas feel right at home).

Either way, I think the pocketpc vs palm battle has reached a tipping point. At this stage people will start to think of buying into an OS with a future, which will lead to accelerating movement away from Palm OS. Think of Netscape VS IE. The remarkable think is that in this case it occurred without any underhanded tactics from MS, and even quite lacklustre support. The main advantage has been the assumption that hardware will catch up with OS demands, while Palm aways tried to live within hardware limitations, resulting in limited products.

Thank God for Moore's Law

Surur

PS: why did this story take so long to make it to palminfocenter. It has been out for at least 2 days everywhere else...



RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Rome @ 11/12/2004 5:40:20 PM #
"Either way, I think the pocketpc vs palm battle has reached a tipping point. At this stage people will start to think of buying into an OS with a future, which will lead to accelerating movement away from Palm OS. Think of Netscape VS IE. The remarkable think is that in this case it occurred without any underhanded tactics from MS, and even quite lacklustre support. The main advantage has been the assumption that hardware will catch up with OS demands, while Palm aways tried to live within hardware limitations, resulting in limited products.

Thank God for Moore's Law"

-------------------------------------------------------------

Your above paragraph doesn't make sense at all. First, Netscape is a browser, not an OS. Second, Microsoft won the browser battle because it illegally bundled IE with its Windows OS. Third, Moore's Law is about doubling the number of transistors on a piece of silicon, not about OS.

As for the previous person who switched to Dell, I am happy that you found something that meets your need. It is a free economy and competition drives innovation. However, I don't think you can compare the price of a refurbuished Dell to the retail street price of a Palm. You can find refurbuished Palms at significantly discount as well. Also, the Sony UX50 offers both bluebooth and wifi, and has been doing so for over a year. I am surprised that you didn't look into that solution.


RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Surur @ 11/12/2004 6:03:15 PM #
-------------------------------
Your above paragraph doesn't make sense at all. First, Netscape is a browser, not an OS. Second, Microsoft won the browser battle because it illegally bundled IE with its Windows OS. Third, Moore's Law is about doubling the number of transistors on a piece of silicon, not about OS.
------------------------------------

I hope Rome's intelligence is not representative of most Palm users. To try and make it clear, there was a time when people cared as much about their browser as they did about their handheld. It was not called the browser wars for nothing. Secondly, the point I made was MS is winning this battle fair and square, without bundling handhelds with desktops for example. It can only be due to genuine failings on the part of the Palm OS and devices. Thirdly one of the main arguments against the PPC OS has always been that it requires too much hardware to run. But hardware caught up long ago with the requirements for the OS. Palm is still stuck with the legacy of designing an OS to run at 33 megahertz.

Surur

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Glenman @ 11/12/2004 6:07:08 PM #
Speaking of switching. My Clie SJ-33 is failing, often can't recharge and can only sync via a bluetooth module (usb has died). WIth Sony pulling out and Palm with wifi (necessary for me now at university) so expensive, I have decided to return to lugging a notebook. So I've gone for an iBook rather than a several hundred pound (sterling not weight) wifi pda. The iBook is beautiful, fast, and light, but I can't find a shirt with a big enough pocket!

Mark

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
AyDb @ 11/12/2004 6:24:25 PM #
"Your above paragraph doesn't make sense at all. First, Netscape is a browser, not an OS. Second, Microsoft won the browser battle because it illegally bundled IE with its Windows OS."

Yes, and he's saying that Microsoft hasn't had to do anything like that to benefit PocketPC, that it's rising on its merits and the merits of pushing the hardware envelope.

"Third, Moore's Law is about doubling the number of transistors on a piece of silicon, not about OS."

He's talking about processor speeds.

"As for the previous person who switched to Dell, I am happy that you found something that meets your need. It is a free economy and competition drives innovation. However, I don't think you can compare the price of a refurbuished Dell to the retail street price of a Palm. You can find refurbuished Palms at significantly discount as well."

A brand new 624 MHz X30 is cheaper than a refurbished T3.

"Also, the Sony UX50 offers both bluebooth and wifi, and has been doing so for over a year. I am surprised that you didn't look into that solution."

Uh, in case you've been too busy worshipping PalmOne, Sony pulled out of the market this year. UX50s no longer have any support at all. Oh, and they're $150 more expensive than a smaller, faster, more stylish unit from Dell. $250 more, if you buy a refurbished Axim. Which, all in all, seems to sum up the state of the Palm community--Palm at any cost, no matter how bad it is.

By the way, angerson, I recommend the freeware WISbar (original, not Advance) 1.4. It lets you either close or minimize programs from the corner X, as well as a lot of other neat things like task switching, and a battery icon. It's the first thing I install whenever I use a PocketPC.

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
batmon @ 11/12/2004 7:06:36 PM #
Yeah, I went for slim laptop too. I bought a ASUS S5N that has 3 USB, 1 1394, reads SD/MMC/memory stick/memory stick Pro, 802.11 b/g, free external slim DVD/CDRW with no power cord, free wireless mouse, free carrying case, beautiful design, 1.5GHz CPU, etc etc for 2.8 lbs. I prefer Panasonic W2 which has internal DVD/RW but it's $600 more.

http://usa.asus.com/products/notebook/s5series/s5200n/s5200n_overview.HTM

I have been waiting for Palm to let me get on Interent but I just can't wait amy longer...

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Gekko @ 11/12/2004 7:33:56 PM #

Rome - It's called a "negative spiral":

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3



RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
angerson @ 11/12/2004 10:26:52 PM #
------
As for the previous person who switched to Dell, I am happy that you found something that meets your need. It is a free economy and competition drives innovation. However, I don't think you can compare the price of a refurbuished Dell to the retail street price of a Palm. You can find refurbuished Palms at significantly discount as well. Also, the Sony UX50 offers both bluebooth and wifi, and has been doing so for over a year. I am surprised that you didn't look into that solution.
---

Well again it boiled down to price, features and support. I get a warranty and a completely unblemished product through Dell for less than the price of anything comparable on eBay in the Palm camp. Outside of that, as was mentioned, Sony is out of the ballgame in the US plus they don't use SD cards (of which I have a significant investment in) nor do they natively work with my Mac.

So I was back to square one. Either way I was buying a 3rd party program by MarkSpace to sync with my Mac. Knowing that I was able to chose on features price and design, Dell won in the end.

Now don't get me wrong I'd much prefer to be using a Palm, or at least some aspects of it. I generally find PPC to be clunky and even buggy. I regularly lose WiFi connections, I still can't figure out how to properly setup additional network configurations and Bluetooth loses communication with my GPS. However I'm sure much of this has to do with my unfamiliarity of the platform. But, in essence, that's the Palm edge. Much like a Mac the learning curve is significantly smaller.

However I'm a realist. I'd never use a Mac just because it was a Mac. In fact I regularly reevaluate my platforms of choice and often experiment with alternative products. I just think Palm is on the losing side here. I prefer their products but will I pay triple the price for fewer features? Sorry, not for a handheld. It's arrogant thinking like that that killed Apple in the nineties. People won't pay more for your product purely out of brand loyalty; you have to give them a reason. Palm has lost all reason.



http://DigiSquid.com - DigiSquid Studios web design

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Rome @ 11/12/2004 11:25:26 PM #
"I hope Rome's intelligence is not representative of most Palm users. To try and make it clear, there was a time when people cared as much about their browser as they did about their handheld. It was not called the browser wars for nothing."

Really??? There is a beer war going on right here in the good U.S.A, and it is called Bud vs. Miller. Should I compare this "war" to the PDA war or the Browser war as well. Damn it, people still care about their beer. You simply assumed that every technology battle is the same and that Microsoft will always come out on top. How about that Intuit Quicken vs. Money battle? Who won that one? How about AOL vs MSN? How about Playstation vs. Xbox? How about yahoo, ebay, google vs any Microsoft Internet initiative? Are these battles all going to end up like the browser battle?

As for your rude "intelligence" remark, I will not lower myself to respond to such comment.

"Secondly, the point I made was MS is winning this battle fair and square, without bundling handhelds with desktops for example. It can only be due to genuine failings on the part of the Palm OS and devices."

Really??? Was bundling the only illegal thing that Microsoft ever did? Ever heard of something called illegal advertising rebate? illegal promotional allowance? Unfair and preferential pricing? Not to mention that Microsoft has been subsidizing their mobile division from the beginning, and that division is till losing money today. Sure this subsidization is not illegal, but it is certainly nice to run a business and not to have to worry about profitability. Palm has had its share of problems and mistakes and should shoulder a lot of blame for losing the market share, but to blindly suggest that Microsoft is winning this battle fair and square, you are just naive.

"Thirdly one of the main arguments against the PPC OS has always been that it requires too much hardware to run. But hardware caught up long ago with the requirements for the OS. Palm is still stuck with the legacy of designing an OS to run at 33 megahertz."

Again, your logic is one-dimensional and linear. It goes like this: higher clock speed, more capable OS code, hence better PDA. Let's apply this logic to buying a car: bigger engine, more horse power, hence better car. You know what you will end up buying if you use this logic, a bus!!!

Unfortunately, this is the thinking that has prevailed in the technology industry for the last 20 years. Intel puts out ever faster processors so that Microsoft can write fatter codes. I sincerely hope that Palmone and Palmsource grow and prosper, because I am so sick and tired of this Microsoft Mononpoly.



RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Rome @ 11/13/2004 12:17:10 AM #
"A brand new 624 MHz X30 is cheaper than a refurbished T3."

Not according to Dell's website and Palmone's website.

Dell's new 624 Mhz X30, $314, after 10% off retail.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=HX301YR&c=us&l=en&cs=19&category_id=2999&page=external

Tungsten T3 Refurbished, $259, plus free 64mb card and free shipping.

http://store.palmone.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1885996&cp=1179667&clickid=mainnav_outlet_txt&parentPage=family

Or you can buy a brand new T3 for $303 here:

http://www2.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?ref=pricegrabber&sku=PALMTUNGT3



RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Rome @ 11/13/2004 12:39:52 AM #
"People won't pay more for your product purely out of brand loyalty; you have to give them a reason. Palm has lost all reason"

In fact, many people pay more purely out of brand loyalty everyday. Many women will only buy Tide detergent simply because that's whay their mothers used. Drivers will pay more for Exxon gas because that's what they believe is the best. And many people pay more for a notebook PC because it is an IBM.

You are right about giving consumers a reason to be loyal to a brand, and your reasons are features (wifi and bluebooth). For other, the reasons may be the simplicity of the OS, better industrial design, better software integration, or the 1.3MP camera on the Zire 72.

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
angerson @ 11/13/2004 1:50:26 AM #
"In fact, many people pay more purely out of brand loyalty everyday. Many women will only buy Tide detergent simply because that's whay their mothers used. Drivers will pay more for Exxon gas because that's what they believe is the best. And many people pay more for a notebook PC because it is an IBM."

Right but in every instance people are getting what he or she believes to be a premium product for that premium price. This works well for clothing and other such commodities because detergent is detergent, gas is gas and clothing is clothing. The only thing that separates these products at all is the brand. Simply put, they're all interchangeable.

This isn't necessarily true for computers & handhelds where other factors come into play such as familiarity (not necessarily ease of use), compatability & usability. PDAs are simply far too marginal to exist on brand alone. The people who buy them are either very casual users (one may argue a good percentage of these comprise the Palm camp) or hardcore, technically savvy users. If Palm can continue to find growth in the casual user segment, they'll do fine. Brand means a lot to those not in the know. Otherwise they have to compete at the power user level and will be forced to compete on features.

This perceived decline in numbers I think is largely a decline in power users. The casual user market is probably nearing saturation and most of what's left is sales propelled by power-user upgrades (people like me). If Palm can't convince me to stay they didn't only lose a sale of a T5, they lost a sale of a new product every other year for the next five years (if my buying trends remained constant). When you add it up, that hurts the brand.



http://DigiSquid.com - DigiSquid Studios web design

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
AyDb @ 11/13/2004 3:53:00 AM #
"Not according to Dell's website and Palmone's website.
Dell's new 624 Mhz X30, $314, after 10% off retail."

Wrong. During periodic sales--just as refurbed T3s are periodically available--the X30 goes for about $255-260. And the X30 midrange, still considerably more capable than the T3, goes for $230.

"And many people pay more for a notebook PC because it is an IBM."

That's hardly 'brand loyalty'. People, particularly corporations, buy IBM because they're practically bulletproof--more solidly built than anyone else's machines. Better quality.

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Rome @ 11/13/2004 9:00:02 AM #
"Wrong. During periodic sales--just as refurbed T3s are periodically available--the X30 goes for about $255-260. And the X30 midrange, still considerably more capable than the T3, goes for $230."

You are now just stretching the truth. I showed you data what 624 Mhz X30 and a refurbished T3 can be had today, while you claim categorically that "a brand new 624 Mhz X30 is cheaper than a refurbuished T3." Are you changing the rules here? Are we only talking about "periodic sales" prices here?

As for your "just as refurbed T3s are periodically available" remark, didn't I just show you a brand new T3 that is available today for $303, still less than Dell's $314 price!!! Also keep in mind that the Dell's price is already 10% of list.

If want to talk "periodic sales," that's fine too. I have seen refurbished T3 going for as low as $189 on overstock.com, which is still less than your "periodic sale" X30 price of $255-260. Since we are on the periodic sales topic, let me just throw in this deal. According bargainpda.com, you can now buy a brand new T5+free case+free shipping for $269 after coupon and rebate. Now, how does this deal compare to the X3?

Finally, you mid-range X30 comeback is interesting. You argue that it is more "capable" than T3 simply becasue it has wifi. I argue that T3 is more capable because it has a better display with higher resolution, a faster processor, and more software. And if we compare the midrange X30 against the Zire 72, it gets even more interesting. A new Zire 72 can be had for $210 today. Same processor, no built-in wifi, better software bundle, a 1.3mp camera. So which is more capable? The midrange X30 or the Zire 72? Doesn't the answer depend on whether you want a camera or wifi?



RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Rome @ 11/13/2004 9:40:21 AM #
"Right but in every instance people are getting what he or she believes to be a premium product for that premium price. This works well for clothing and other such commodities because detergent is detergent, gas is gas and clothing is clothing. The only thing that separates these products at all is the brand. Simply put, they're all interchangeable."

I may disagree your opinion, but I respect them. Isn't this what brand loyalty is all about? And why should PDA be any different? Many people pay more for Sony Electronic products simply because they are Sony.

"This isn't necessarily true for computers & handhelds where other factors come into play such as familiarity (not necessarily ease of use), compatability & usability. PDAs are simply far too marginal to exist on brand alone. The people who buy them are either very casual users (one may argue a good percentage of these comprise the Palm camp) or hardcore, technically savvy users. If Palm can continue to find growth in the casual user segment, they'll do fine. Brand means a lot to those not in the know. Otherwise they have to compete at the power user level and will be forced to compete on features."

I agree with most of your points here. But don't you think that the potential mainstream PDA/Smartphone market is significantly bigger than the power user market?

"This perceived decline in numbers I think is largely a decline in power users. The casual user market is probably nearing saturation and most of what's left is sales propelled by power-user upgrades (people like me). If Palm can't convince me to stay they didn't only lose a sale of a T5, they lost a sale of a new product every other year for the next five years (if my buying trends remained constant). When you add it up, that hurts the brand."

Gartner numbers are cooked. As I had previously mentioned, Gartner consistently left out Treo sales while including Blackberries and iPaq 6315. Palm made a decision some time ago to shift effort to the smartphone market. I am certainly not happy with their traditional PDA effort lately, but I must say that their Treo products are the best in class. In fact, I am getting a Treo 650 this Christmas. And there are many other power users like me who have made the leap to smartphones as well. I am sad to see you leave the Palm community, and I hope that Palmone or somebody else will come out with a kick-ass PDA in the future to bring you back.



How PalmOne can save itself:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/13/2004 1:06:51 PM #
angerson @ 11/13/2004 1:50:26 AM

"In fact, many people pay more purely out of brand loyalty everyday. Many women will only buy Tide detergent simply because that's whay their mothers used. Drivers will pay more for Exxon gas because that's what they believe is the best. And many people pay more for a notebook PC because it is an IBM."

Right but in every instance people are getting what he or she believes to be a premium product for that premium price. This works well for clothing and other such commodities because detergent is detergent, gas is gas and clothing is clothing. The only thing that separates these products at all is the brand. Simply put, they're all interchangeable.

This isn't necessarily true for computers & handhelds where other factors come into play such as familiarity (not necessarily ease of use), compatability & usability. PDAs are simply far too marginal to exist on brand alone. The people who buy them are either very casual users (one may argue a good percentage of these comprise the Palm camp) or hardcore, technically savvy users. If Palm can continue to find growth in the casual user segment, they'll do fine. Brand means a lot to those not in the know. Otherwise they have to compete at the power user level and will be forced to compete on features.

This perceived decline in numbers I think is largely a decline in power users. The casual user market is probably nearing saturation and most of what's left is sales propelled by power-user upgrades (people like me). If Palm can't convince me to stay they didn't only lose a sale of a T5, they lost a sale of a new product every other year for the next five years (if my buying trends remained constant). When you add it up, that hurts the brand.


Well said, but unfortunately your points will probably be lost on the Palm Apologists. For years Palm has lacked the desire to compete (in terms of features and quality) with bigger companies like HP, Dell and Sony. Despite limited resources, Palm could easily still concentrate on releasing a couple of well-engineered, well-built PDAs if they contract out to the right companies. But they probably won't, since in Palm's current corporate culture it's apparently preferrable to ride a busted up horse until it's crawling on its knees, and only then start looking around for new transportation. Palm will continue serving half-baked leftovers - occasionally adding a different sauce - claiming it has created a new PDA masterpiece. Incremental upgrades like more memory, dual wireless and (eventually) OS changes will be all that I believe we'll see from Palm's traditional PDAs from now on. Even this conservative approach could work if value and quality were part of the equation. Right now they aren't.

Since it's obvious that Palm has given up on the traditional PDA market, they REALLY need to push sales of Treos, specifically to businesses. That's where the money is and Palm's decision to buy Handspring and focus on the Treo was a wise one.

Consumers can make dumb choices sometimes, but in general they know what is good quality and what isn't. While brand loyalty can be a factor, in the end the decision whether or not to purchase most (non-luxury/non-food/non-style) items revolves around whether or not they have the features/performance that justify the cost. Despite similar (shoddy) quality, this price/value concept explains why a $200 Tungsten E might make sense to some people, while the Tungsten "5" does not. In Palm's desperation to bring cash back into the company, they have made decisions regarding choice of design/components/manufacturer/pricing that have resulted in their products becoming poor values. Brand name may still generate a few sales for Palm to naïve consumers, but those in the know (who often end up advising less-aware potential purchasers) will look elsewhere. If Palm wants to save their traditional PDA market, they should quickly evolve the Tungsten 3 to the highest level (much better construction quality, at least 128 MB of real RAM, OLED screen, better battery, Wi-Fi, dual expansion), price it competitively, AND MARKET IT HEAVILY TO BUSINESSES. Trying to get sales one at a time from expensive-to-support consumers is less profitable than generating sales to companies that buy hundreds or thousands of PDAs at a time.

The Treo 650 should give Palm the caçhet they haven't had since the Palm Vx. Palm needs to immediately roll out a creative turnkey plan for businesses centering around corporate email (think Blackberry) and Wi-Fi connectivity. Then leverage the Treo 650 to fuel sales of a new-and-improved Tungsten. Palm has all the tools it needs today to present an attractive PDA package to big business. In the past they've botched attempts to market to businesses, but now Palm needs to finally get their act together. Does Palm have ANY competent leaders? Or are they all too busy looting the company to care?




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

100,000th comment at Palminfocenter! What do I win, Ryan?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/13/2004 2:47:49 PM #
Please don't say it's a Tungsten 5 package!

;-D

By the way, congratulations for having kept a great site going for so long. I hope Palm doesn't withdraw advertising $ from PIC because of all the negative publicity Cobalt and the Tungsten "5" have received here. (If you end up running into financial problems, you should put up a PayPal donation account link on the main page.)



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
Gekko @ 11/13/2004 3:05:02 PM #

Voice - your pathetic cries for attention are really getting annoying. Please go try to find some friends in the real world.



RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
AyDb @ 11/13/2004 3:19:53 PM #
"You are now just stretching the truth. I showed you data what 624 Mhz X30 and a refurbished T3 can be had today, while you claim categorically that "a brand new 624 Mhz X30 is cheaper than a refurbuished T3." Are you changing the rules here?"

No, I'm talking about premium availability. On the best days, an X30 runs $252, and a refurbed T3 is $260. On the worse days, an X30 is $314 and you can't get a refurbed T3.

"Also keep in mind that the Dell's price is already 10% of list."

Dell NEVER sells for list price. There's always some kind of sale going on, usually 10-15%, sometimes coupons. In any event, you're bulls---ting here. The point is that the T3 is as expensive or more so that a much more powerful machine.

"you can now buy a brand new T5+free case+free shipping for $269 after coupon and rebate. Now, how does this deal compare to the X3?"

You want to compare the T5 to a machine with Bluetooth, WiFi, 624 MHz, microphone, and a removable battery for the same price? Go ahead. Your funeral.

"You argue that it is more "capable" than T3 simply becasue it has wifi. I argue that T3 is more capable because it has a better display with higher resolution, a faster processor, and more software."

The 'more software' meme hasn't rung true for years. These days, there's just as much current software available for PPC as there is for Palm--much of it being the same applications. A faster processor is debatable--how much Palm OS software can use it? And the higher resolution doesn't help much either. PalmSource has never implemented sub-pixel font rendering in OS 5. The result is that text still looks rough, whereas it doesn't on a PocketPC with SPFR.

"A new Zire 72 can be had for $210 today. Same processor, no built-in wifi, better software bundle, a 1.3mp camera. So which is more capable? The midrange X30 or the Zire 72? Doesn't the answer depend on whether you want a camera or wifi?"

Well, judging from the sales numbers, people seem to prefer WiFi. Not to mention the huge problem with the Zire 72 where the paint literally peels off the case until it's stripped, something you don't get on a PocketPC, and the almost comically bad images from the camera.

The customers have spoken, and they're speaking into the voice recorders on their brand new PocketPCs.

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
mikecane @ 11/13/2004 4:41:19 PM #
My heart beats very warmly here. I was not involved in this thread *at all* and people are still at each others throats! So much for the munchkins who thing *I* cause all the fuss...

Yoo hoo! Geeko, Sweetie...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/13/2004 4:54:01 PM #
There's hope for small men. See your Urologist. Your boyfriend will thank you when you're finally able to reach his anal verge...

;-O



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
angerson @ 11/16/2004 10:23:04 PM #
"I agree with most of your points here. But don't you think that the potential mainstream PDA/Smartphone market is significantly bigger than the power user market?"

I always assumed the mainstream market was bigger, yes. However if that is the case then that's bad news for Palm because it means they're losing low-end as well as high end sales of "non-connected" handhelds to PPC. That leaves them essentially with the smartphone market that Microsoft seems intent on winning. Palm's advantage there is that OS 5 is a much more capable phone OS than Windows Mobile could ever hope to be. Palm's disadvantage is that Microsoft is willing to bleed money to win.

Either way Palm has made some mistakes in the last couple of years and, as a Palm loyalist, it pains me to watch them slowly sink into obscurity. They had the better product, they were to market first but rest assured in the end they'll be relegated to a 10% marketshare. At best you can hope that they survive by evolving into a niche device, perhaps taking over the smartphone market (like Apple in creative media).

Then again people always argue that PDA's are dead so maybe that's the point. Perhaps Palm sees the sinking ship and is now focusing on what it believes is the only viable solution, smartphones.

Either way it's been an interesting ride, for sure. And don't count me out of the Palm camp just yet. I'm slowly growing weary of Windows Mobile 2003. Combine that with the fact that I can't find a nice slim case for my Axim X30 and the fact that MarkSpace's syncing solution for Mac doesn't support Entourage (the closest thing Macs have to Outlook) and I actually found myself looking for a Wifi SD card for my T3 today. So you just never know...



http://DigiSquid.com - DigiSquid Studios web design

RE: Can't vouch for the numbers but...
mikecane @ 11/18/2004 8:20:52 AM #
>>>There's hope for small men.

As if I wouldn't see your comment, you sleaze. Call your OBGYN. You're overdue for your smear.

Gartner is a shill for Microsoft

willwinter @ 11/12/2004 5:09:54 PM #
Check out Gartnet's record. They are completely in the pocket of Microsoft.
RE: Gartner is a shill for Microsoft
AyDb @ 11/12/2004 6:14:00 PM #
Denial of reality, step one: shoot the messenger, discredit the message.

RE: Gartner is a shill for Microsoft
batmon @ 11/12/2004 7:05:20 PM #
come on... even Palm Inforcenter is posting all these bad news so why we still keep denying??

RE: Gartner is a shill for Microsoft
RhinoSteve @ 11/18/2004 1:38:39 PM #
Who knows who is paid off. Money talks but reputation is priceless.

Sony Effect

Admin @ 11/12/2004 6:57:40 PM #
Take into account this is also the first quarter compared that is pretty much totally devoid of any new Sony Clie sales. This time last year Sony still had roughly 15% of the market share.
RE: Sony Effect
Gekko @ 11/12/2004 7:26:08 PM #

And if 'ifs' and 'buts' were beer and nuts, we'd all have a hell of a party.



RE: Sony Effect
mikecane @ 11/13/2004 4:43:18 PM #
>>>And if 'ifs' and 'buts' were beer and nuts, we'd all have a hell of a party.

Well, the rest of us would. You wouldn't be invited.

RE: The Stockholm Effect
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/13/2004 6:04:15 PM #
Take into account this is also the first quarter compared that is pretty much totally devoid of any new Sony Clie sales. This time last year Sony still had roughly 15% of the market share.

That was a generous attempt, Ryan. But then shouldn't Sony's market share simply have been taken over by the remaining vendors? Or did everyone that would have bought a CLIE just decide to not buy anything now that Sony's bitten the dust?

Let's not make excuses for Palm's performance. Palm is slipping along its downward spiral because for years it's been fleecing consumers with poorly made, overpriced, PDAs with limited features + an undeveloped OS. And they've been doing it for so long that now that they don't know how to do any better. Fortunately, it seems likely that Cobalt will ultimately be adaptable to PPC hardware, so in the end it won't matter if PalmOne goes under. Microsoft is probably just waiting patiently until when they can swoop in and pick up a bankrupt PalmSource for a firesale price. Yup, splitting Palm up was a good move - for Microsoft. Now when they buy the PalmOS they don't have to pay for a useless hardware company as well.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Sony Effect
McTrinsic @ 11/16/2004 6:38:24 AM #
Quote:
How about that Intuit Quicken vs. Money battle? Who won that one? How about AOL vs MSN? How about Playstation vs. Xbox? How about yahoo, ebay, google vs any Microsoft Internet initiative? Are these battles all going to end up like the browser battle?


Yes.

All of them.

Unfortunately.

But then again, the one advantage is that there will be a standard. I remember the eighties where dozens of computers were available. It was a good time, yes, but a bad time as well with all these systems incompatible of the other (with the exception of the Amiga, whou was able to emulate almost every other).

McTrinsic


Opinion: Palm Is Not Going to Fail

Gekko @ 11/12/2004 7:23:33 PM #

Opinion: Palm Is Not Going to Fail
Posted By: Ed on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 11:31:33 AM

http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=1957



RE: Opinion: Palm Is Not Going to Fail
Surur @ 11/12/2004 7:33:50 PM #
Three choice quotes (from 2001)

-------------------------------
"Historically, almost one in 10 handheld devices is a Pocket PC. It's share is usually below 10%. The Pocket PC universe vs. the Palm universe parallels Apple vs. the PC." The PPC platform may eventually turn out to be serious competition for Palm, but it isn't yet.
--------------------------------

Palm isn't going to split into two parts, a hardware and an OS company. Palm has wanted to do this for years and it just isn't financially feasible. Licensing the OS doesn't bring in enough cash to support the OS company.
-----------------------------------

And even if you have no faith in Palm's management, have faith in the Palm platform itself. It still dominates the handheld market the way Microsoft dominates the desktop one. The Palm OS is a 600 hundred pound gorilla and it will be a long time before anyone can make a monkey out of it.
-------------------------------------

So was 3 years long enough?

Surur


RE: Opinion: Palm Is Not Going to Fail
samheddle @ 11/12/2004 8:46:14 PM #
Doom and gloom... Man, news was good back then... Tungsten T, W, C, Zire 71...


Newton Mp2000
AND
Dell Axim X3i
AND
Sony Clie TJ35

Since no one else wants to say it . . .

somas1 @ 11/12/2004 7:57:14 PM #
Congratulations Microsoft. You've spent 7(?) years and hundreds of millions of dollars to possibly beat (still not a definite win yet) a company with a fraction of your resources. : )

In 10 or 15 years you may win the smartphone wars.

RE: Since no one else wants to say it . . .
orol @ 11/12/2004 8:54:58 PM #
the point is, they don't need to beet the competition overnight they want to have fun too :)

not to mention, they would be sued if they beat the competition overnight :)

RE: Since no one else wants to say it . . .
Gekko @ 11/13/2004 7:53:21 AM #

MSFT didn't beat Palm. Palm beat themselves.



RE: Since no one else wants to say it . . .
mikecane @ 11/13/2004 4:44:05 PM #
Ever seen a cat with a mouse? It's never a quick nor clean kill.

Thumbs up to Pocket PC, and PalmOne too

UGlee @ 11/12/2004 10:58:48 PM #
I have read this news in several sites for quite a few days. And finally PIC posted the detailed shipment quantity instead of only a market share pie. Thank you, PIC.

Although I am a long-time Palm die hard, I'm no doubt that Windows CE powered device has a really great season. All pocket pc licensees did good jobs in this quarter that deserves double thumbs up. However, IMHO, palmOne did a good job too.

Brighthand recently posted a comment named "lies, damned lies" on IDC statistics publicized a few days ago. The editor complained that the data-centric PDA phones, such as HP 6315, were not counted in IDC's results and it was unfair. He also implied the Gartner's result would include those devides.

But I think such statistics is unfair to palm either. Considering palmOne had shipped more than 250,000 units of treo 600, which contributed more than 20% to palmOne's shipment and more than 1/3 to the revenue.

And please read this article from CNN Money:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/10/technology/palmone.reut/

Apparently palmOne has done great job to dramatically improve its financial/fiscal situation as well as to fuel up the momentum of treo 600 by its marketting dollar. And that's probabley why it's losing steam in traditional PDA market.

Definitely would I give palmOne double thumbs up to its performance in this quarter. Though I admit Pocket PC has done excellent job too.

Just my 2 cents.

Anyone notice the exclusion?

Altema @ 11/13/2004 1:07:39 AM #
The fine print mentions that they excluded the Treo, which had a distinct impact on the numbers, but they INCLUDED the hp6315!

They are both smartphones with cameras. Why would they remove a POS top seller from one side of the scale, yet retain a similar PPC device on the other side?

Can you say "numbers manipulation"?

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
AyDb @ 11/13/2004 3:57:18 AM #
Nonsense. They include data-centric wireless handhelds--i.e. PPC Phone Editions--but exclude voice-centric smartphones like the Treo and others. If you want to include the Treo, you also have to include sales of the Windows Smartphone devices, which are actually selling reasonably well, particularly in Europe. (F--ked if I know why, though.) In any event, the Treo wouldn't even have brought Palm close, let alone moved it past Windows, even if you didn't include the MS Smartphones.

Could we move past the bulls--t folks? The numbers aren't rigged no matter how much you don't like them. This isn't a Florida election. It's not like this happened overnight. People like me have been warning everyone who would listen for a long time. Palm stagnated, and PocketPC was driven to compete. Once, Palm had an 80% marketshare to PPC's less than 10%. Every lame handheld Palm or PalmOne put out, every month that went by without WiFi, every delay and excuse in the SanDisk driver fiasco, every delay in Cobalt, has been a shovel of dirt out of Palm's grave. Now they have to either get it together, or stay on course and die.

Get it together, Palm.

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
`Vampire Lestat` @ 11/13/2004 1:58:55 PM #
I expected the Palm sales drop many months ago when analyzing the crop of Palm devices in the last few years. All of the units had functional problems ranging from minor to outrageously unforgivable.

But all that is in the past.

The Tungsten T5 is now here and it is poised to strongly reinforce PalmOne's market share and financial status.

The T5 is a formidable handheld with no known hardware flaws to date. It is wrongly getting a bad rap because many handheld users are cynical after going through the last few years buying questionable models.

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
AyDb @ 11/13/2004 3:42:26 PM #
"The Tungsten T5 is now here and it is poised to strongly reinforce PalmOne's market share and financial status.

The T5 is a formidable handheld with no known hardware flaws to date. It is wrongly getting a bad rap because many handheld users are cynical after going through the last few years buying questionable models."

What are you smoking, and where can I get some? Besides the fact that it's $100-$150 overpriced, the T5 has a whole herd of major flaws. The power button is nearly useless. It has more computerized bugs than the movie Starship Troopers. The speaker connection is dubious, and god knows how long the flash memory will last before it dies. That's just the stuff that's apparent at this point. I'm sure we'll find yet more malfunctions after it's been in service a few months.

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
`Vampire Lestat` @ 11/13/2004 4:31:32 PM #
- "Besides the fact that it's $100-$150 overpriced,...".

Have you checked the price of the Dell Axim X50v and HP HX PPCs? The T5 is priced accordingle. I would like all PDAs to cost less, but these guys have to make a profit.

- "The power button is nearly useless. ..."

Quite the opposite. The T3 button was hard to press and had no "click" feedback. The T5 button does. However, to be fair, sometimes you have to press it twice to turn on the unit. It is weird, but far from a nuisance, let alone a "major flaw"; that is simply not true.

- "The speaker connection is dubious,"

And why exactly are you doubting the speaker? My T5 plays radio shows and music all the time with the back speaker. Its is loud and clear. The stereo jack feed is absolutely fabulous; far superior to the audio on the T3. If anything, P1 should be applauded for the sound features of the T5; not doubted. :-
- "... and god knows how long the flash memory will last before it dies."

Pure speculation.

The T5 is king now, and many people just don't know it yet.

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
mikecane @ 11/13/2004 4:45:30 PM #
>>>The T5 is king now, and many people just don't know it yet.


I know you like yours very much, Lestat, but just like the recent election, this is not a "leader" I'd choose to have.

Lestat's been sucking on some bad "juice". Knowhatimean.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/13/2004 5:55:03 PM #
Are you familiar with the term "sarcasm"? Lestat's pulling your leg.

Alucard has spoken. Begone!



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
ganoe @ 11/14/2004 12:44:36 PM #
Exclusion? What about the half million Windows CE devices included in the "by OS" table that are unaccounted for in the "by vendor" table. I suspect most of those devices aren't even PDAs in the traditional sense.

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
Altema @ 11/14/2004 9:32:36 PM #
"Could we move past the bull.."

My,.. aren't WE tense.

Anyway, my point was not saying that the stats would be reversed, I just thought it was odd that they would treat similar devices differently. If the statement is that the Treo would not have an effect, then I respectfully disagree. While sales of some PPC smartphones may be ok, I've not seen reports of demand being so high that they cannot build them fast enough. I don't stay up at night wondering what the stats are, or why p1 got the name wrong on the TE2, why I like the new iPaqs better than the T5, or why I think WM sucks. I've had multiple units of both OS's, and my next device may not be the same as what currently fits my needs. If 'who's first' is so important to anyone that they cannot breathe, then that person (not you specifically) needs to remember that the Ford Pinto was 'first' in a lot of things... then get a life.

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
AyDb @ 11/15/2004 6:36:43 PM #
“Have you checked the price of the Dell Axim X50v and HP HX PPCs? The T5 is priced accordingle.”

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA NO!

Comparing the the T5 to the X50 midrange, both with a suggested retail price of $400, the T5 lacks WiFi, more speed, a removable battery, cradle, dual slots, and consumer IR. If you figure the average selling price of the T5, plus WiFi card and cradle, then it’s priced up against the going rate for the Dell Axim X50v, which has even more speed, a 3D accelerator with 16 MB of video RAM, and all that other stuff.

“And why exactly are you doubting the speaker?”

The speaker isn’t connected to the motherboard. Like the TE, it’s just pressed on by the

“Pure speculation.”

Hardly. Flash memory dies. Could be as little as a year, could be several.

RE: Anyone notice the exclusion?
AyDb @ 11/15/2004 6:44:02 PM #
“If the statement is that the Treo would not have an effect, then I respectfully disagree.”

It wouldn’t have tipped the balance. It didn’t sell a half million units this quarter. Not even close.

“While sales of some PPC smartphones may be ok, I've not seen reports of demand being so high that they cannot build them fast enough.”

Despite how often that’s repeated here, it’s not true about the Treo either. PalmOne said many months ago that all previous supply constraints on the Treo 600 had been eliminated. They have plenty of stock to sell all they can, now.

For AyDb and those who want another Microsoft Monopoly

Rome @ 11/14/2004 5:34:33 PM #
AyDb,

You have yet to show me any data that back up your claim that "A brand new 624 MHz X30 is cheaper than a refurbished T3." On the other hand, I have shown you various data points where a brand new T3 and T5 are both lower than a Dell 624 Mhz X30. Let’s go through your counterpoints again.

"No, I'm talking about premium availability. On the best days, an X30 runs $252, and a refurbed T3 is $260. On the worse days, an X30 is $314 and you can't get a refurbed T3."

First, what does premium availability mean? And on the worst days, a X30 is $349, not $314. Below is a link to prove my point.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=04&oc=x30high&m_1=AX600C&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&kc=6W300

"Dell NEVER sells for list price. There's always some kind of sale going on, usually 10-15%, sometimes coupons. In any event, you're bulls---ting here. The point is that the T3 is as expensive or more so that a much more powerful machine."

NEVER???? Please see the above link for confirmation why you are incorrect again. I can assure you that I am not Bull****ing here. Just click on the above link.

"You want to compare the T5 to a machine with Bluetooth, WiFi, 624 MHz, microphone, and a removable battery for the same price? Go ahead. Your funeral."

How about that the fact that T5 has better industry design, higher resolution screen, more memory, and longer battery life? Oh, before I forget, a lower “on sale” price, too.

"The 'more software' meme hasn't rung true for years. These days, there's just as much current software available for PPC as there is for Palm--much of it being the same applications. A faster processor is debatable--how much Palm OS software can use it? And the higher resolution doesn't help much either. PalmSource has never implemented sub-pixel font rendering in OS 5. The result is that text still looks rough, whereas it doesn't on a PocketPC with SPFR."

I was not talking about general software availability. I was talking about software included with the T5 and X30. And Palm OS still has more software than PocketPC, and to be more precise, about 10,000 programs more. Here is another link to back my point.

http://www.techworld.com/applications/features/index.cfm?FeatureID=985

"Well, judging from the sales numbers, people seem to prefer WiFi. Not to mention the huge problem with the Zire 72 where the paint literally peels off the case until it's stripped, something you don't get on a PocketPC, and the almost comically bad images from the camera.
The customers have spoken, and they're speaking into the voice recorders on their brand new PocketPCs."

What sales number? Those Gartner numbers are units shipped, not sold. And if voice recorders are all PocketPC users their PDA for, they must all have too much money to burn; because you can buy a digital voice recorder these days for well less than a $100.

I fully realize that Palm OS is not prefect. Nothing is in this world. I have used Pocket PC before, and I simply didn’t enjoy the experience. I am certain that there are many people out there who prefer PocketPC to Palm. But the reverse is also true. What I don’t get is why would anyone want another Microsoft Monopoly in the mobile OS market? Look at what happened to the IE after MS “won” the browser war….the innovations slowed down dramatically. We, the consumers, are actually the ones who suffer in the long run in a monopoly; we end up paying more for less. The first IBM PC cost almost $5000 with two floppy drives and an amber screen. How much does an average PC cost these days and what kind of features do you get with an average PC? Now ask yourself this, how much was a copy of Microsoft OS back then and how much is it now?

Now, who is being screwed?



RE: For AyDb and those who want another Microsoft Monopoly
AyDb @ 11/15/2004 6:48:45 PM #
Rome, get over it. I showed you ‘data points’ just as valid as yours showing a new X30 being cheaper than a refurbed T3. And, even if you can produce a scenario under which the X30 is more expensive, may I remind you that we’re talking about a brand new unit of a more advanced device compared to a refurb of an older, slower one?

“I was not talking about general software availability. I was talking about software included with the T5 and X30.”

Oh really? Sounds kind of irrelevant to me, as well as moving the goal posts.

“And Palm OS still has more software than PocketPC, and to be more precise, about 10,000 programs more. Here is another link to back my point.”

Any accounting of Palm apps on PalmGear or anywhere else is likely to include a great many that are no longer compatible with new devices. In any event, that’s irrelevant. The whole point of argument Palm users have always tried to use the software issue to push is that Palms can do so much more than PocketPCs. Not only is that not true, it’s easily argued the other way. I’d like to see stats on how many new apps there are for Palm VS PPC. I don’t care how many knitting and cigar-smoking advice apps for the Palm III you can produce, it doesn’t amount to a software advantage for the Palm OS.

“What sales number? Those Gartner numbers are units shipped, not sold.”

Units shipped eventually means units sold. When these are shipped to a retail store, they stay there until they’re sold. Likewise for online retailers and warehouses. They don’t go back to the manufacturer.

“I am certain that there are many people out there who prefer PocketPC to Palm. But the reverse is also true.”

Yes! Finally! Somebody gets the point that just because they prefer Palm doesn’t make PocketPC the spawn of Satan.

“What I don’t get is why would anyone want another Microsoft Monopoly in the mobile OS market?”

Who said anything about wanting it?

“Look at what happened to the IE after MS “won” the browser war….the innovations slowed down dramatically.”

I wouldn’t know, I don’t use it.

Who here is advocating for MS? My personal point is threefold.

One, that despite the deeply ingrained dogma here, Palm users need to wake up and realize that Palm OS is not as perfect, dominant, and infallible as they seem to thing. Also, that while they may prefer Palm, the competition isn’t evil or half as bad as Palm users believe.

Two, PalmSource needs to get off their ass and build an OS that can compete. I was just reading today about how PalmOne is STILL avoiding Cobalt 6.1 because the smartphone features are so lacking that it doesn’t even have support for basic CDMA network functions. That’s the tip of the iceberg. There’s things that Palm OS should have been able to do for years, like file systems, networking, WiFi, memory card integration, multitasking, and dozens of other things. They need to have a capable OS NOW, if it’s not already too late. Handhelds are no longer the glorified dayplanners and calculators PalmSource seems to treat them like.

Three, that PalmOne needs to get off THEIR ass, and produce hardware which actually competes on both features and price. That’s the only way Palm OS will survive. Otherwise, it’ll end up either going under or becoming the Apple of the handheld world, hanging onto its tiny notch of loyal, almost cultish users.

RE: For AyDb and those who want another Microsoft Monopoly
AyDb @ 11/15/2004 9:26:05 PM #
Oh, and I forgot:

“How about that the fact that T5 has better industry design, higher resolution screen, more memory, and longer battery life? Oh, before I forget, a lower “on sale” price, too.”

Higher resolution screen, granted. More memory? We were talking about the T3, not the T5. Moving the goalposts again? And in any event, I can buy a 256 MB SD card for under $20. For the price difference between the X30 and the T5 I can buy a 1000 MB SD card. Better industry design? I guess ‘industry’ likes cheap casings and useless power buttons. Longer battery life? Wrong. The X30 goes for seven hours with Bluetooth on. And if you want more you can always, say, switch out the battery. Lower sale price? Wrong again. The ‘sale price’ of the T5 is $330, the sale price of the X30 is $256 as of last weekend.

This is what I’m talking about--NO ONE, including PalmOne, is willing to admit to themselves that they’re behind the curve. This all reminds me of 2001, when Palm outright said that Palm users did not want color screens or sound capability. It was made all the funnier and stupider because I was reading it on my IIIc. It’s the “we don’t make it, so you don’t want it” school of thought that’s so often the byproduct of a monopoly like Palm had for many years. It’s also frequently fatal, as the Palm world is now learning.

RE: For AyDb and those who want another Microsoft Monopoly
Rome @ 11/16/2004 12:04:11 PM #
AyDb,

You keep telling me that you have shown me some "data points" that proved your claim. Your "data points" are simply your own references. Can you show me links to third party sources that can back up your claim? So far, you have shown me 0 link.

The REAL reason for the gain...

SimpleIsBetter @ 11/15/2004 10:45:31 AM #
First of all, just to get the record straight, Treo sales numbers are close to 350,000, which brings the total PalmOS numbers only slightly below the PPC numbers. Also, "Windows CE" does not equal "Pocket PC", so the Windows CE numbers include many non-Pocket PC devices used in vertical markets like factory automation. Nonetheless, one cannot ignore the rapid gains by PPC. The real question is, why?

As a PDA software developer, I have watched this market closely over the last 5 years, and each time I get a "swticher" on the phone, I ask them why they switched. Can you guess the reason? WiFi? Better OS? Better features? Better software? None of the above. The overwhelming number one reason I hear from consumers is "I want to be compatible with Word and Excel, and I want to sync with Outlook". Can you believe that? All educated buyers should know that you can do that with either PalmOS or PPC, but the fact is that most buyers are NOT educated. The second most popular reason I hear from switchers is "I like Palm better, but my company has standardized on PPC" -- a decision made by power users, not consumers and not the real end users.

The REAL reason for the massive PPC market share gain is the Microsoft monopoly. Consumers are scared to buy something w/o the Microsoft name on it, because they are utterly dependent on Word, Excel, Outlook, and Windows. And like they say, nobody at a corporation has ever been fired for recommending a Microsoft product.

So you can debate pricing and features all day long, but it really doesn't matter to the uneducated consumer. The PalmOS is just the latest victim of the Microsoft monopoly, whether by merit or not.

RE: The REAL reason for the gain...
EdH @ 11/15/2004 1:37:26 PM #
First of all, just to get the record straight, Treo sales numbers are close to 350,000, which brings the total PalmOS numbers only slightly below the PPC numbers.
Do you have a source for the 350K units of 3rd quarter 2004 shipments of the Treo? I have looked and been unable to find this info.

RE: The REAL reason for the gain...
SimpleIsBetter @ 11/15/2004 3:53:07 PM #
I can't find the source of my 350,000 figure right now, but I do remember it clearly. I did find this Washington Post article which estimates 300,000/quarter:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1804&ncid=1211&e=9&u=/washpost/20041113/tc_washpost/a46682_2004nov12

I've also read figures of 1 million total sold, and a direct statement from Palm that Treo represents more than 50% of revenues (this would point to even more than 350,000/quarter, considering they sell most units at a discount to wireless carriers)

RE: The REAL reason for the gain...
amike @ 11/16/2004 3:37:22 AM #
Why PPC gains in Europe ? G.P.S. !!!!
Why WinCe outsold POS in this quarter ? New models of PPC vs old models P1...

M$ wins once again ? HAHA

- What about RIM ? (very profitable, see the overwhelming performances of blackberry !!! )
- What about nokia : more than 2'000'000 smartphones sold...

The problem of P1 in firms is very common : "How can we manage all these units efficiency : security, software, exchange...?" And there are 2 solutions :
- RIM, or
- "you've never been fired if you choose M$, even if you are a Dude :)"

Top

Account

Register Register | Login Log in
user:
pass: