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New Palm Inc Logo ~ Click for largerToday marks the date palmOne Inc, becomes Palm, Inc. The company today begins trading under the symbol PALM, formerly traded under the Nasdaq ticker symbol PLMO. Accompanying the name change is the release of a new company logo, which will begin appearing on products this fall.
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Let's hope that the "new" Palm start to deliver the goods

Polyglott @ 7/14/2005 1:56:57 PM # Q
Ok, so we will all have to get used to the new logo. I hope that the company will focus on giving us, the cusotmers, what we finally want. Any idea when the T7 will be released?


I'm In
Timothy Rapson @ 7/14/2005 2:17:57 PM # Q
I have been holding off on getting a handheld computer since I have been so confused over all the odd names.

Now, that I know it is Palm, I am in big time. I am going out today and buying one of each.....No, I'm headed to the Palm website right now to buy a Palm 31, 21, 72, TE2, T5 AND a brand new Palm LifeDrive.

I am so relieved. I now know what to buy.

RE: Let's hope that the
hkklife @ 7/14/2005 2:44:44 PM # Q
Well, as of today on palm.com, you can have either the "new old" Palm Zire 21, Tungsten E, or Tungsten C. OR you can have any of the rest of the lineup with the "old" PalmOne branding on it. Or wait until October/November for a "new" Palm T7.

Decisions, decisions!

RE: Let's hope that the
MonkeyMike @ 9/5/2005 3:17:30 AM # Q
Gotta love them press-releases. Such a pleasure to read..

--
http://arpx.net/docs/top_10_palmos_applications - my top 10 palm apps.
Reply to this comment

Fruity

rasty @ 7/14/2005 2:29:03 PM # Q
Gotta like orange ;)

RE: Fruity
kevdo @ 7/14/2005 2:42:56 PM # Q
That logo is so ugly! The old one was perfect!

-Kevin Crossman, Palm Powered Software Champion
RE: Fruity
budrowilson @ 7/14/2005 3:41:07 PM # Q
I agree. That logo is ugly as sin.

But it other news, the next handheld to be released will once again be graced with the words, "PalmPilot" !

he he he

RE: Fruity
LiveFaith @ 7/14/2005 4:17:03 PM # Q
Wrong boys! The colr scheme was inspired by greatness!
http://utsports.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/tenn-m-footbl-body.html

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Fruity
budrowilson @ 7/14/2005 4:31:42 PM # Q
LiveFaith-

I've lived in Tennessee all my life, you can't tell me anything about the Big Orange that I don't already know. I was in Knoxville Tuesday.

That said, there are 49 other states in the union as well as Canada, Great Britain, and even Europe that don't bleed Tennessee Orange. Go figure. I think the previous "palm" logo had it right.

RE: Fruity
budrowilson @ 7/14/2005 4:40:46 PM # Q
Oops. Change the "," to ";" after "life" in the first sentence.

RE: Fruity
LiveFaith @ 7/14/2005 4:44:43 PM # Q
49 other states! That's ludicrous.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Fruity
Gekko @ 7/14/2005 4:46:43 PM # Q

I'm sure that for a small donation to the "Church of Living Faith" collection basket, the Reverend Horne could have used his photoshop skills to create a much, much better logo for Palm - at a much better price for PALM shareholders than this wacky firm charged!

RE: Fruity
LiveFaith @ 7/14/2005 5:19:34 PM # Q
RE: Fruity
just_little_me @ 7/14/2005 7:08:39 PM # Q
budrowilson: "...and even Europe"

Wow... so the world stops at Europe now? How international of you... ... short-sighted americans.


JLM.

RE: Fruity
budrowilson @ 7/14/2005 10:02:11 PM # Q
I realize there are other people in the world. However, I didn't know that Palm spent millions marketing to Indonesia, Russia, and Columbia (as well as the rest of the world). Most of the people I see posting are from the countries I listed. However, if you'd like to throw your $.02 in, please, by all means, list all the countries I left out when trying to make my point...

RE: Fruity
Tech72 @ 7/15/2005 1:21:58 AM # Q
The Country name is Colombia the city in the south eastern part of the U.S. is Columbia.... I liked the Silver rimmed blue badge or disc...it looked Classy... Orange rimmed in white looks....out dated...kinda 70's...

RE: Fruity
davidv @ 7/15/2005 1:51:06 AM # Q
You know when companies start dicking with the core brand and the primary logo that we all know so well ... it's a sure sign that the company is captured by marketing morons and their creative agency partners.

There was nothing wrong with the old blue palm logo - in fact most us would recognize it instantly. You could argue the orange logo is fresh and more up to date and reflects the new Palm. However these are false reasons to change. The brand should never change - make the brand mean fresh and contemporary through the products, the advertising and the promotions - not the brand.

The pity of it is they will waste hundreds of thousands of dollars on a rebrand rather than spend that on product development and actually delvering the next product.

Oh well - I like orange - my favourite colour - lets hope they stick with it now forever.

I wonder where I can get replacement badges to stoick on my old Palms, not to mention cover up that horrid palmOne logo on my Treo?


dave the rave

Dear Palm, Help I'm trapped in front of a box of wires and silicon. Please give me back my life.

RE: Fruity
budrowilson @ 7/15/2005 2:13:13 AM # Q
Tech-
Now that's a useful correction. Completely overlooked "Colombia." I'm glad you pointed that out...

RE: Fruity
ackmondual @ 7/15/2005 7:04:22 AM # Q
heh, and they say real men where orange.

At least it isn't spilling over into Apple's style of fashion

RE: Fruity
rasty @ 7/15/2005 12:38:19 PM # Q
And it's round!

RE: Fruity
joad @ 7/15/2005 2:34:24 PM # Q
"The logo was created by Turner Duckworth, a leader in brand identity design that counts among its customers Amazon.com and Coca-Cola."

Ummm, yeah Duckworth... Coca-Cola has needed to change their logo around every year or two also.. Anyone else here remember that snappy "coke" logo of 1995? Man, it was sooooo non-digital. I love the 2005 Coke logo, I'd probably not even RECOGNIZE a Coke product from 15 years ago.

This "brand identity" stuff is so very important, thank gawd Palm recognized that it wasn't the devices that were buggy, their whole problem was that the logo wasn't the right shade and shape of orange...

Coke is a classic example of why you DON'T screw around with a solid brand. PERHAPS there are reasons other than the obvious to take control over the Palm name. Perhaps. But to flippantly and radically redesign your corporate logo nearly every other year just reeks of foolish trendiness and poor asset management.

OK Palm, you've spent your $30-40 Million, got your name and silly orange spot logo. Now get back to building handhelds.



RE: Fruity
rasty @ 7/15/2005 5:27:30 PM # Q
"PERHAPS there are reasons other than the obvious to take control over the Palm name"

... like giving PalmSource that $30m they needed to survive?

RE: Fruity
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/15/2005 10:45:29 PM # Q
"PERHAPS there are reasons other than the obvious to take control over the Palm name"

... like giving PalmSource that $30m they needed to survive?


Shhhhhhh!


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Fruity
mikecane @ 7/16/2005 10:48:30 AM # Q
>>>Orange rimmed in white looks....out dated...kinda 70's...

Oh my God.

This can only mean one thing: the next LifeDrive will have a hard DISCO in it!

And can it be? -- yes, the newest handheld is code-named Nixon!

RE: Fruity
rasty @ 7/16/2005 6:17:13 PM # Q
Humm.. 33gigs vynil?

Reply to this comment

The Illusion of Progress Continues...

Gekko @ 7/14/2005 2:32:41 PM # Q

"Reorganizing can be a wonderful method for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."



RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
LiveFaith @ 7/14/2005 4:19:52 PM # Q
Gekko,

Why do I have the feeling that you have already printed the picture above and pasted it on a dart board?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
svrontis @ 7/14/2005 8:53:24 PM # Q
Just so.

Remember though that the WinMob division has been reorganised several times in the last few years (change of management, new marketing spin, etc). How much longer before the beancounters at M$ get tired of that illusion and consign WinMob to its grave?

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
Foo Fighter @ 7/14/2005 9:52:42 PM # Q
Why would Microsoft pull the plug on Windows Mobile when it's winning? Or haven't you heard that Windows Mobile outsells PalmOS? Should PalmSource pull the plug on PalmOS as well. Oh wait...they already did? Ha!

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
svrontis @ 7/14/2005 9:57:12 PM # Q
Foo, you have an interesting concept of 'winning'.

M$ is a business. They did not get to where they are by throwing moneys at loss-making ventures. The WinMob division has been bleeding money for many years. Even with the cut-backs to head count (and the delays in the timetable for release of WinMob 5.0), they did not manage to break even last year.

If 'winning' means working for years and years without ever making a profit (as is the case with the WinMob division), then I'm a monkey's uncle.

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
Foo Fighter @ 7/14/2005 11:27:32 PM # Q
Uh..did you not catch Bill Gates last few Keynotes where he pushes Windows Mobile Smartphones? Windows Mobile is the center piece to Microsoft's mobile strategy, which is going to tie in heavily with Windows Media content services.



-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
svrontis @ 7/14/2005 11:48:07 PM # Q
Yes. Over the years Mr Gates has lead a number of initiatives (eg, remember the Pen PC?). Those which were unprofitable were canned, sooner or later. To his credit, Mr Gates keeps trying to find new markets, but M$ has always dealt with loss-making divisions in a business-like manner (some would say 'ruthless' manner).

WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever has been struggling since its inception. It has been bleeding money from day 1. It has been restructured again and again, but the read ink still flows.

The latest spin from the restructured WinMob division is to focus on smartphones. But all the devices produced by the OEMs to date have been underwhelming (to say the least).

The latest 'great white hope' is the HP 6550 - but reviews of pre-production models have not been good. I have no idea what the carriers think of it, but Sprint (for one) will likely be very cautious given the problems they had with earlier HP models.

Will HP proceed to launch this model given their own financial problems? Probably (I guess), but they may not be able to throw enough money at on-going R&D for this unit - enough, that is, to get it right.

There is, of course, the rumour about Motorola's RAZR-type model. Whether this ever goes beyong the drawing board is open to doubt, particularly given Moto's chequered history of announcing a new unit and not following through with it.

This is all against the background of RIM's improving performance. They seem to be going from strength to strength. While they are a niche player, their little niche is doing very well. (Eg, over the last six months, the geeks in our IT department have been dumping their cell phones / palmpilots and adopting Blackberry's instead.) The Blackberry is (in so many ways) a crude device, but it has struck a chord with customers. RIM are slowly strangling the handheld computer market (and the smartphone sub-set of that market).

Anyway, the bottom line is this: Forget all the nice video presentations, power-point slides and press releases which are conjured-up by the marketing department as part of the launch of a new product. If the product losses money it WILL be terminated - terminated, with extreme prejudice, and regardless of how many upward-sloping charts marketing can dream up. It would be naive to believe otherwise.

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
Gekko @ 7/15/2005 12:36:52 AM # Q

baby svrontis - MSFT will use mobile devices as a loss-leader if it has to. They have the luxury. Last time I checked, however, it appeared that MSFT was making money with Windows Mobile.

You can pray to your god that MSFT pack up their tent in this space, but I can assure you that they will not. This is a war of attrition. The trend is clear, Palm is screwed. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it.



How Microsoft will DESTROY RIM + Palm:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/15/2005 3:06:37 AM # Q
"Free" push email for companies. It's that simple.

Company X is already running Microsoft Exchange Server http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/default.mspx along with a dozen other Microsoft apps.

Suddenly, along comes Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 Service Pack 2 (SP2) featuring the functional equivalent of "push" email, remote device deletion, etc.

Company X decides to give mobile email service to its employees.

Which will it choose?

a) Microsoft Exchange-ready Windows Mobile phones
b) Proprietary RIM hardware + software (expensive and potentially difficult to scale up to support large companies)
c) PalmOS phones with Good's or a few other companies' cobbled-together packages
d) Gamble and roll their own solution with any combination of phones + commercial software (ChatterEmail, SnapperMail, VersaMail, etc., etc.) hoping no tech support nightmares will ensue.

Most people will pick "a". A smash hit with a design like the HTC-Universal could rapidly catalyze the adoption of the Microsoft platform.

Feel free to bet against Microsoft ultimately winning this one. No doubt sue-happy RIM (AKA "Lawsuits In Motion") and Palm are already preparing their "We got our a$$es kicked by Microsoft so we're demanding compensation for our inability to compete" lawsuit.

Can't wait. Yawn.




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
sr4 @ 7/15/2005 3:22:17 AM # Q

There is a huge amount of denial in the POS community. When you try and make things as clear as possible (e.g. POS shipped 1.8 million units in q1 2002, and 1.1 million in q1 2005) you never get a straight answer from them.

Like svrontis, they all just hope that WM goes away. This is also Kirvin's fantasy (MS will abandon WM in favour of longhorn mini-tablets)

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91845&page=6&pp=15

If I was in a business and my sales decreased by nearly 50% in 3 years I would be very very worried. Forget WM (as you clearly want to) but why is POS not selling well?

Surur

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
Timothy Rapson @ 7/15/2005 8:20:52 AM # Q
Svrontis, you make a good point about MS renaming its OS over and over then you make some rediculous claim about MS being innovative and looking for new places to lose money while cutting losses at divisions that are losing.

Nothing could make less sense than the bottom line on both statements.

1. MS kept changing the name of their product when it was not getting anywhere. Now, that it has cut off Palm, I expect it to stop trying to sound like a Palm competitor. On the other hand, as you point out, RIM IS getting somewhere and may become MS's next target.

2. MS couldn't care less about losing money or about innovating in any area except its cash cow. The desktop OS. MS has never, ever produced a successful, innovative product. From mice, to mounded keyboards, from word processors, to browsers. The words innovative and successful are not in their vocabulary. Even that cash cow desktop OS was a copy of CPM, later Apple, and now Unix. No innovation, none of the time. The only reason MS is in the mobile OS area at all is because people were offered the Palm/US Robotics Aubry and MS was afraid customers might use it to get to the WWW instead of a WinTel system. They are now on to the phone OS deal for the same reason. If people got all their information processing work done on a Nokia/Symbian model, they might stop putting up with all the grief they get from their desktop/laptop.

Nope, sorry, Palm changing names on the way down in its one and only market vs. MS changing names to go up in a market it may no longer need anyway are not the same things at all.

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
Foo Fighter @ 7/16/2005 2:25:41 PM # Q
I don't understand why, svrontis, you think MS is going to pull the plug on WinMob because it's losing money. Microsoft isn't trying to turn WinMob into a revenue generator, at least not yet. In EVERY new segment Microsoft moves into they willingly lose money. Just look the xbox, they are still taking a bath on this venture and yet judging from Xbox 360, and a massive impending marketing campaign to back it, MS clearly has every intention of staying in this fight and playing to win. And guess what? xbox is gaining on Sony. Remember all the doom and gloom prognosticators who said xbox was a failure because MS didn't grab 90% share of the game market in xbox's first year? They were all wrong.

No one believed MS would ever succeed in the mobile device space, and yet here we are. Microsoft has beaten Palm. WinMob now outsells PalmOS. In fact, Microsoft no longer has PalmOS in its sights..it is irrelevant. Their real target now is Symbian, or rather Nokia. RIM to a lesser extent. The next "big thing" is downloadable audio and video content on phones, and guess who is poised to win that fight? Microsoft of course. PalmOS is going be left out of this space because it has ZERO support from content services. There is no Napster client for PalmOS, no Windows Media Player for PalmOS, no support from Sony, Apple, etc. PalmOS can't playback DRM encrypted Windows Media audio, which means you can't download music from any online music service onto your phone. There is some minor support from Real's Rhapsody, but that's going nowhere.

So that means the only media rich mobile platforms will be Windows Mobile and Symbian. If this industry takes off, a lot of future Treo users will be greatly pissed off that their $400-600 device can't access music/content services, while kids with el cheapo Nokia phones can download audio and video onto their phones.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
svrontis @ 7/16/2005 7:17:28 PM # Q
I see the usual Whiners are a little annoyed with my posts.

Dear Whiners, the recently announced restructuring/lay-offs mean that HP is now dead-in-the-water. (And judging by the performance of HP's CEO while he was at NCR, these lay-offs will be the first of a series.) WinMob has effectively lost its largest licensee. How are you going to explain that away?

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
sr4 @ 7/17/2005 3:16:43 AM # Q
How about HP made $1.132 billion dollars from WinMob devices at an average selling price of $430?

http://www.itweek.co.uk/vnunet/news/2126742/blackberry-growth-fuels-pda-bonanza

So you expect them to give up a cash cow and not to be able to tender a full solution (server, desktop, notebook, PDA, PDA-phone)? Svrontis, keep dreaming please. It must be nice over there.

Surur

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
Timothy Rapson @ 7/17/2005 12:15:22 PM # Q
Darn it Surer if you are going to bring actual facts into the conversation how's Svtontis to have any chance at all.

Ouch! That one stung all the way over here, and I was not even on Svrontis' side of the point.

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
sr4 @ 7/17/2005 12:51:34 PM # Q
Don't worry Timothy, Palm apologists have never let the facts sway them. If fact they see them as personal insults. Observe Kirvin's latest rant regarding how "shipments lie". http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/index.php

Did you know Palm's average selling price is only around $285 (including the Treo)?

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050405/plmo10-q.html

Surur

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
Timothy Rapson @ 7/17/2005 3:23:39 PM # Q
I read a report (the sort I always used to dismiss) from Gartner or similar, about average selling price about four years ago. They were predicting at that time that the average price per unit was going to drop like a rock in the next year from like $475 to $350. A year later, their report proved accurate almost to the dollar as Dell moved into the market.

So, Palm is down to $285? Does that include the now sub-$100 Zires? My bet is that Palm pays about $35-40 for the average mono Zire. They wholesale them quite profitably for $70-80. But, it sure is not like it was when Palm Vx cost them about $200, wholesaled for $280 and retailed for anywhere from $300 to $450.

Personally, I don't see myself ever paying more than $200 for a PDA again. They all come down to that price and there are no real essential features even a Zire 72 lacks. I suppose I could go $300 for a really perfect model, but I don't see it. They always miss something. Right now, my fav would be an Axim X50v. And I would pay the $360 lowball price. But, not without a camera. So, I am in the sub-$200 market. I think most consumers are. But, that also puts me in Treo phone territory these days. I saw an ad for one at $175 with two year contract this week. Then again, I can't talk the SSS anymore.

The bottom line is that Palm is not making enough money to survive even one really bomb model. That will kill them. They survived the Palm M500 debacle when it was introduced before they were ready and they had a bunch of leftovers they had to lose money on. They don't have enough money to do that again.

As you point out, HP does. With what they are charging for their craptacular current PDA lineup, I would expect them to make money. But, will their customers put up with it? Will another maker with real brick outlets sneak in and bleed off that profit? Or will some phone maker take it all with a model that makes every Palm or WM model pointless?

RE: The Illusion of Progress Continues...
sr4 @ 7/17/2005 4:43:34 PM # Q
Actually the Average Selling Price for handhelds has increased year on year. The average selling price of 2005 was $353, this year its $403.

http://www.blackberrycool.com/2005/05/05/00415/
http://blogs.zdnet.com/ITFacts/?p=7133

Even Palm is up. That $285 is up from $225, which is up from $175 the year earlier.

Its a major illusion to think people are not willing to pay big bucks for PDA's. They are just willing to pay more for PocketPC's, which new OEM's really should take notice of.

Surur

Reply to this comment

Same ol' stuff wearing new clothes

hkklife @ 7/14/2005 2:18:29 PM # Q
New logo, same ol' hacked-together OS, same ol' smudgy T|E formfactor across the line.

I am very eager to get all of this rebranding business behind us and see what they have in store for us this fall. I am going to attempt to muddle along on either a T3 or T5 until then!

Between now and then, however, there remain the outstanding issues of the LD's patch(es) and the T|E2 find bugfix.



RE: Same ol' stuff wearing new clothes
vesther @ 7/14/2005 3:30:42 PM # Q
Also, with regards to the Tungsten line, it's time to get back to the smooth, brushed anodized aluminum casing for the following:

* Durability
* Ruggability
* Efficient Cooling of the Handheld

Plastic Cases, what I have found out, when I owned the Tungsten T5, doesn't handle heat that well, and I felt that Plastic Cases, as handhelds become faster, will cause handhelds to be destroyed due to ambient heat--therefore it is extremely important that Palm considers using Smooth, Brushed, Heat-Sinking Anodized Aluminum not just for durability, but to cool the circuit boards, memory and processor chips of the handhelds.

I think Metal cases tend to cool the insides of the handheld much better than plastic, but I'm hoping that Palm will use Anodized Aluminum Casings for the Tungsten and LifeDrive line of Handhelds from this point on (as I'm getting tired of Plastic Casings, not for durability issues, but for heat problems that needs to be rectified in the future).

I think that there should be Copper Basing aimed at the memory and processor chips of the circuit board and the case to be all-anodized aluminum for efficient heat dissipation.

Those of you who favor metal cases should think about Anodized Aluminum instead--Heat inside the Handheld should also be an issue, not just durability.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

RE: Same ol' stuff wearing new clothes
mikecane @ 7/14/2005 3:46:19 PM # Q
Metal shells are not the best thing for built-in WiFi.

Have fun swapping SD cards... memory/WiFi.

RE: Same ol' stuff wearing new clothes
honus @ 7/14/2005 4:20:28 PM # Q
vesther, I'm a little confused... do you dislike plastic cases for durability reasons for maybe for some other reason like heat problems.

As for metal shells and wifi, the LD has WiFi in a metal shell doesn't it?

RE: Same ol' stuff wearing new clothes
mikecane @ 7/14/2005 4:25:23 PM # Q
I've read conflicting reports about the LD shell. Some have said mostly metal. Others have said mostly plastic. Given the internal WiFi, I'd say plastic. Metal really does dampen reception.

RE: Same ol' stuff wearing new clothes
hkklife @ 7/14/2005 5:54:46 PM # Q
The LD has a plastic back on it and the front bezel/sides seem to be plastic frame with a thin metal veneer around them. Nevertheless, it's a solid step forward from the cookie-cutter T|E/T|E2/T5s and looks NICER than any Palm/P1 device since the m515. The original T|T was nice in its gunmetal grey but it still looked sort of "chunky" and not very streamlined.



Ruggability
Hal2000 @ 7/15/2005 1:50:02 PM # Q
Ruggability: This must be the ability to withstand repeated drops to a standard carpet thickness, as in "Wow, I dropped my palm on the rug again and it broke. They really should improve thier ruggability"


Zodiac2/T616/WiFi'd

RE: Same ol' stuff wearing new clothes
hkklife @ 7/15/2005 2:16:38 PM # Q
Don't you mean ruggedness?

"Ruggability" is not a real word.

The corporate market (as well as some individuals and poor Georg) has been screaming for a ruggedized, industrial-spec "ToughPalm" device for ages now. Right now the Symbol units are available and pretty dang robust but they use stone-age m500-or-lower technology.

Matsu****a, bring 'em on!

RE: Same ol' stuff wearing new clothes
AdamaDBrown @ 7/17/2005 5:30:17 PM # Q
To clarify--the front rim and lower back of the LD are metal overlaying plastic, the sides and upper back are pure plastic, the latter being where the WiFi antenna is grafted onto the case.

Reply to this comment

It would've been better if....

Jeffry @ 7/14/2005 2:45:26 PM # Q
... that blinding bright orange colour is replaced by the dark blue colour we used to see couple of years ago. Otherwise, it looks good.

RE: It would've been better if....
dagwud @ 7/14/2005 3:09:39 PM # Q
I so very much agree. The older logo, which happens to be the one on my m515, looked professional and mature.

The new logo looks like something I'd expect to see teenagers and college students carrying. It seems like they're struggling to be "hip and trendy" rather than designing products for professionals.

Of course, orange has never been high on my list of "favorite colors", so that might be part of my disdain, too.

--
PalmPilot Pro (1997) -> III (1998) -> Vx (1999) -> m500 (2001) -> m515 (2002) -> ???

RE: It would've been better if....
re_ality @ 7/14/2005 3:39:37 PM # Q
I totally agree. Compare yourself: http://flickr.com/photos/re-ality/25904121/

--
Palmusergroup Mannheim/Germany - www.pug-mannheim.de.vu
Palmusergroup Frankfurt/Germany - www.pug-frankfurt.de.vu
Reply to this comment

I blame Ed Colligan

mikecane @ 7/14/2005 3:23:09 PM # Q
HE had to have final approval for that abominable logo.

I'm not delighted, Ed.

The Popsicle motif is just too ... childish.

RE: I blame Ed Colligan
joad @ 7/16/2005 3:49:02 PM # Q
Maybe a Popsicle isn't right, but a SUCKER may be more apt...

Reply to this comment

I miss Handspring!

james_sorenson @ 7/14/2005 4:00:59 PM # Q
Weren't those the days? True innovation! High-powered, expandable products! Color selection!

The Treo650 (obviously a Handspring-engineered device) is proof that Handspring has brains. Hopefully those brains are being given room to breathe in Palm.

Actually, the LifeDrive does show some promise of innovation...if you take off $100, that is. The Tungsten series needs to be buried, though. Yah, yah, they are good enough for some people, but the price vs feature vs stability of those things have gone down the toilet. The Tugnsten|C was the last good device of that series.

In any case, I fear that Palm's survival may be more dependent on what PalmSource does. Little Ol' Palm will not be able to compete with the likes of Dell and HP if they don't have software advantage.

- Jim

-------
James Sorenson

RE: I miss Handspring!
LiveFaith @ 7/14/2005 4:46:51 PM # Q
... the springboard modules and that band of developers outside Hawkins office with clubs and rocks ... hehe. It is quite mundane these days in comparison.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: I miss Handspring!
ackmondual @ 7/15/2005 7:05:44 AM # Q
HS was great in some areas but behind in others.

GREAT
-Springboard modules were a unique experience. A Visor could potentially be more than any Clie or Palm Inc device with all the right modules. Adding stuff like voice recorder, video recorder, modem, etc. does the trick. It was also fun to show ppl that a PDA could also be used to make phone calls or even give yourself a nice relaxing massage (that's right, massage with 2 A's, as in a beauty palor and NOT AOL IM)
-sw extras were nice. Advanced Calc (better than Parens Lite, but lower than Parens itself), Datebook+ (stripped down version of Datebook3), and CityTime (stripped down version of the retail one) were 3 apps right there that i found VERY useful.
-other extras.... Visor Deluxe and later came with styli with reset pins and screwdrivers, snap cover, stylish 'ice' cradles
-GREAT tech support.
-nice, tactile, responsive buttons

BEHIND
-I like SD cards better in the end quite honestly. WIDELY supported, in PDAs, PCs, digicams, and beyond
-no hi-res, altho in all fairness, neither did Palm Inc... hi-res was a Sony only territory at the time.
-more integration would've been nice. Even tho my Visor could potentially surpass newer models, I liked how my z71, my next PDA had digicam and MP3 player intergrated. No extra modules/physical add-ons to lug around at no extra cost. And that's not even crossing into the hi-res, color screen
-abandoned the PDA only devices bef jumping ship completely

Bury the Tungsten line!?!?
ackmondual @ 7/15/2005 7:19:20 AM # Q
Uhmm, why are they skipping the T|T6? I would've thought they would skip the T|T7 as the next num to skip since 7 IIRC is unlucky to some cultures. What's the beef with 6?

As for the remark to bury the Tungsten line.... no No NO!!!

Zires are either too low end or multimedia oriented to offer high end specs and features, Lifedrive is still in its infancy, especially at that price and amt of bugs. Tungstens are the last alternative. Sure, the T5 may have been a letdown, but I still consider the T|T3 to be one superb device (with bad points, like the obvious battery life). It's still a great value for the average price of $325 now.

Reply to this comment

Spinning Wheels Keep on Turning

razorpit @ 7/14/2005 4:16:46 PM # Q
I don't spend much time posting around here but since 1999 or so I have been checking in from time to time to see what the latest ska is.

Is it just me or does everytime I see what's new, Palm is either A) Changing their name, B) Changing their logo, C) Opening a new headquarter location, or D) Closing a current headquarter location. If I was a share holder I would be p*ssed about the resources that just seem to be spent at will. Talk about stuck in the mud with your wheels spinning... I shutter to think what the products could be like with better resource allocation like research and development. By now we would have holographic storage, graphiti 3 with mind reading technology, and built-in AM/FM radio.

RE: Spinning Wheels Keep on Turning
LiveFaith @ 7/14/2005 4:49:03 PM # Q
... don't forget the RCA digital laser disc and Betamax SD modules!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Spinning Wheels Keep on Turning
Timothy Rapson @ 7/14/2005 8:22:35 PM # Q
Their not completely blowing the money on shuffling stuff.

They spent $14 million on CEOs for two companies last year:)

RE: Spinning Wheels Keep on Turning
joad @ 7/15/2005 2:58:58 PM # Q
...guess they have to justify the $700 pricetag on the GSM Treo SOMEHOW.

Reply to this comment

Substance Instead of Symbolism

Gekko @ 7/14/2005 4:59:00 PM # Q

I could really care less what the logo looks like. What I care about is SUBSTANCE. Give me a high quality device at a reasonable price with innovative BUT USEFUL features. But most importantly - I need *STABILITY/RELIABILITY/DEPENDABILITY*.

RE: Substance Instead of Symbolism
Timothy Rapson @ 7/14/2005 8:25:42 PM # Q
RIGHT.
I had that stability, dependability and a terrific feature set in my original Palm OS product, a Sony NR70V that I thought was worth $489.10.
I don't think my Zire 72 was worth the $170 I paid for it. At least it is still running almost a year later, but the feature set is not what I expect. Ah well. Maybe next Spring. No, that's right we won't get true fonts, multi-tasking, and real support for external files built in until LiPalm.....in two years.
They have wasted practically every second of Palms' life(ves) since they first put out OS 5. Wasted the whole time.

Reply to this comment

Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...

Former Palm User @ 7/14/2005 4:47:41 PM # Q
Perhaps they should change their R&D and design team. For a company that is producing boring and lackluster products they are concerned about a freakin' LOGO!!

I would have preferred the introduction of a new device such as a Palm m515 with Tungsten T3 and cell phone functionality. I don't care about multimedia, I want a PDA with strong PIM functionality. Obviously, I can be done, look at i-Mate Jam, RIM Blackberry, and the Motorola Razor.

With their latest offerings, I'm not regretting my switch to the Pocket PC platform.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
LiveFaith @ 7/14/2005 5:23:37 PM # Q
Former,

... one may switch to the darkside for a variety of reasons ... but PIMs!?!? Never heard that one yet.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
twizza @ 7/14/2005 5:49:05 PM # Q
FPU
Seems that you dont have a clear grasp of whats going on. A company cannot keep the same logo if they are using a different name. In addition, them using the old Palm logo would have been akin to a woman wearing the same blouse twice in a week (not happening).

As for your other comment towards the designers needing to put effort towards R&D and not a new logo. Again, you are misfounded. People who design the logo rarely deal with design and implementation of the product until teh prodcut is finished. So, speaking on this end, you need to complain about the items that will come out in two years, as the ones that will come out next Spring are being finalized now. That an we know that Palm/palmOne/Palm releases twice a year Spring and Fall (only once happened during the summer if I recall correctly). Looking for more than patches now is asking for something that wont happen. Come to think of it, besides HP (which has a Summer/Fall release schedule) you wont see ANY new products until the fall.

As for more robust PIM, you probably came from a before palmOne PDA where the enhanced PIM apps werent there. Not that Pocket Outlook is any better really, but to move to a WinMob device on PIMs alone, you are probably more interested in your desktop being in your hand than you are in understanding efficiency. Since palmOne, the PIM offerings on Palm/palmOne handhelds has been much better out of the box. Before that, well...Lets just say I used a third party program to help things out too. If you can get by with the basic PIM on WinMob devices, and not on palmOne (not Palm, not the new Palm either) then you are doing better than a ton of WinMob folks who swear by SPB and Agendus :)

mobileministrymagazine.blogspot.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
Former Palm User @ 7/14/2005 6:09:18 PM # Q
On the contrary, I have been a Palm user since the release of thei first product. I have invested quite a few dollars on just about every release of their products. For one, it wasn't critical for Palm to change their name at this moment. The money (millions) invested for a name change could have been used somewhere else (i.e., R&D and Design). Maybe this is one of the reasons the former CEO left the company.

Palm has done a wonderful job over the years of adding mimimal features and repackaging the same device (i.e., m500, m515, t2, t3, e and e2). However, they sold at a premium. So, I refused to be bamboozled, lied to, deceived, misled, lead astry, tricked, punked by a change in the company name and logo. However, I'm anxiously awaiting the release of the rumoured Tungsten XX (the T5 with added Wi-fi)....SIKE!!

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
just_little_me @ 7/14/2005 7:14:22 PM # Q
And you're still here why exactly...? To gloat over owning a PPC...? tell someone who cares...


JLM.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
Former Palm User @ 7/14/2005 8:24:44 PM # Q
Ohhh...I'm not here to gloat over owning a PPC my dear fellow!! I'm simply saying the products that are or rumoured to be released are missing something that is greatly needed to survive in today's market and it's not a symbol and name change.

I have just about every release of Palm's high-end product up until the Tungsten T3. I've spent thousands of dollars in hardware, software and accessories. However, I lost interest simply because Palm just wasn't doing it for me anymore. They became boring.

My requirements aren't that complex (at least I don't think so) based on the technology available today. However, wouldn't you find a device about the 1/4th the size of the LifeDrive with celluar (GSM), Wi-fi, and Bluetooth functionality attractive? Especially, if it was built on the m500-series or simular platform. I realize they would never release something like that because it would be in direct competition with the Treo devices.

Let's see what will happen upon the release of upcoming Palm device. With rumored devices (i.e., Motorola's PocketPC Razor Blackberry knockoff) over the horizon, I hope Palm has a few tricks up their sleeve.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
Former Palm User @ 7/14/2005 8:38:37 PM # Q
JLM...

The purpose of your post is?? Obviously, my comment grabbed your attention since you posted such a meaningless response. I hope you enjoy the rest of our day!! :)

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
InsGuy @ 7/15/2005 4:05:40 PM # Q
FPU,

I too changed to PPC (Dell X50v), but I don't post about all the 'great' things PPC has. Yes, I gave up on Palm after the T5, but I still watch (and hope) for a Palm device to use again. Some people here might think of your post(s) as someone who is trolling. Just a thought...

All good things...

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
Former Palm User @ 7/16/2005 1:08:40 AM # Q
For all of those who think the comment is gloating or trolling over PPC, I can assure you this is NOT the case. I posted the comment "Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team" instead of worrying about a logo and a name change.

The bottom line is this, if Palm does focus on the market and watch the success of their competitors, then they won't have to worry about the name change or explaining to their faithful customers why they are closing shop.

Ask yourself, what type of product(s) can Palm produce to make you want to buy one? I have already described what I would like to see in previous posts. I don't think $500 handhelds, new headquarters or a new logo is the answer. In today's market, no device should be produced without a removable battery, bluetooth & wi-fi, and a high resolution color screen.

As far as I'm concerned we, the customers, are the big joke. We continue to pay premium dollars for Palm technology that is years behind. So, do you think I should be excited and ready to ante up my dollars to Palm for old technology the consider to be new?

Obviously, the have a helluva marketing team since the have been able to repackage and sell the same concept for the past 2 or 3 years. As it stands for now, it's the R&D and Design team that seems to be the weakest link. I'm not in favor of their latest product line because it is the same as last year or the year before. In fact, their products have gone from the "coolest of the cool" to an expensive paper weight...a brick. Remember when Palm would fit in your shirt pocket? Or you could keep the thing going for two-weeks on "AAA" batteries, you could always find batteries when you needed them. How bout the chip you could add to your Palm for paging, e-mail or get the news before the RIM Blackberry? I feel for all the i705 users. What about the cool cases that allowed you have Palm, pencil and paper (for emergency use) all together. Nevermind, anxiously waiting for weeks for the release of new devices was like salivating over Janet's SuperBowl mishap.

So, before you decide to take a swipe or jab at my comments, please understand, my comments are not here to promte the PPC but, to generate thoughts on how a company that dominated the PDA industry for years seems to be concerned about a new logo, letterhead, and corporate headquarters. After all, we (the consumer) already paid for new logo years ago.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
hkklife @ 7/19/2005 11:35:14 AM # Q
Must-haves (on any $300+ Palm-powered device):


-Dual wireless
-Decent battery life
-320*480 screen of good quality (OLED is *not* a necessity at this point)
-Voice recorder
-Charging LED
-Good hardware buttons
-Reset button not requiring unscrewing stylus cap
-User-selectable Graffiti 1/2
-OS STABILITY
-Solid build quality
-At least 64mb of RAM, NVFS or otherwise.

Nice secondary items to have:

-Vibrating alarm
-Dual SDIO or single SDIO w/ internal flash drive
-Metal body or at least metal-trim on bezel
-Loud alarms
-Slim formfactor with rail on left side of unit for case attachments (Palm V, m500, T5)
-T|T/LD style boing boing stylus
-Good software bundle
-Cradle included

The vast majority of the above is not leading edge tech!!!
It comes down to Palm/P1 being penny wise & dollar foolish! I can live without 802.11g, OLED screen, built-in 2mp digicam w/ video capture, a built-in HD etc. ID the core PDA is at least capable of decent multimedia, doesn't craap out on me after 6 months of daily usage, and has a battery that can get me through a few continuous workdays without recharging.

All of the above points have been available one at least one OS5 Palm/PalmOne device over the past 2.5 years. In fact, the LifeDrive has many of the above points addressed with the glaring omissions of slim formfactor, good battery life, and OS STABILITY. Palm HAS the resources and know-how to assemble a solid handheld with at least 3/4 of the above features.

Basically, give us a slimmer LD without the HD & the bugs and with a removable battery. The Palm faithful have been crying for such a device since 2002 (at least). It's not a matter of R&D (well, it IS at the OS level of things) it's a matter of cost cutting and making the bean counters stop skimping on RAM etc.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
twizza @ 7/19/2005 1:20:05 PM # Q
Love the list;
Now fast rewind a few years and realize that a product takes a bit to come to market. That being the case, your requests are too grounded in today, and should more accurately relflect the user from 2 years from now; for this is how these devices are designed and built. Yes, you can make the argument that Palm got caught off guard with power and memory increases in the past few years. And so they are adjusting, but to propose a device that is essentially using hardware from today is repeating what you are bemoaning Palm for doing in the first place :)

mobileministrymagazine.blogspot.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
twrock @ 7/19/2005 6:23:31 PM # Q
twizza, if I were to write the list, it would look very similar as well. However, the point would be that many were asking for such a device years ago. P1/Palm didn't deliver, didn't plan to deliver, and they still aren't delivering. I truly think the "listed" device could have been r&d'ed and delivered in a very short period of time given that the technology was/is readily available. As he said, "The vast majority of the above is not leading edge tech!!!"

If the hkklife's list is truly "for today" and not forward thinking, then where is the device right now? And what would be wrong with going ahead and building it now and selling it as the mid-range device while they spend the big bucks on r&d for the "two year from now" hardware? [exasperation] No, I know that simply isn't going to happen.[/exasperation]

Personally, I've quit adding to my "dream list" in the hopes that Palm will finally deliver. It's called "lowered expectations."

(And just to clarify, Palm, if you somehow think my lowered expectations are a good thing, think again.)

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
hkklife @ 7/21/2005 9:25:11 AM # Q
Twrock is right. I was ready for such a device basically around the time of the T|T's release--certainly by the time of the T2 or T3. If the device I proposed is now forward-looking enough, then by all means have it as your <$350 midrange Tungsten and have a shiny new LifeDrive @ $500 with OLED, Microdrive, MPEG-4 video capture & playback etc. as your cutting-edge device.

MOST typical Palm users aren't looking for something with the LD's HD or the VZ90's OLED scren (right now, at least).

The "average" power user just wants the usual features clamored for long ago---dual wireless, 320*480, choice of Graffiti variants, good audio playback, OS stability, good formfactor and a removable battery. That's NOT AT ALL too much to ask given today's tech and falling component prices. The T7 looks to be a step in that direction but it'll (likely) have the usual shortcomings--fixed internal battery, no voice recorder, no vibrating alarm, no charging LED, Graffiti 2, no cradle etc.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
Timothy Rapson @ 7/21/2005 1:05:17 PM # Q
Except for the features appropriate only to POS (HVGA & GI/II) the device you describe is a mid-level Dell. For $250.
I don't want or need the wireless, but it is built into every Intel ARM processor, all it needs is an internal antenae. So, why are we still getting this ridiculous T5 with "free" WiFi card garbage. I echo what others said and echoed. This is all OLD tech and POS models are simply not keeping up.

So, they lose sales. If my Zire 72 breaks today, I am in the market for an Axim, not a Palm. And to point back to the top of this thread/topic; It has nothing to do with the name or logo.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
hkklife @ 7/21/2005 4:58:38 PM # Q
I don't use Palm OS expecting a laptop replacement or the latest BLEEDING edge tech. I use it for speed (historically), simplicity, stability (historically), available software, my substantial existing investment in software/hardware for the platform, and an unwillingness to adopt a cumbersome new mobile OS.

I do not expect Palm-powered units to be feature poor but I certainly don't expect them to ever compete head to head with WinMob. Palm is too small and cash poor to be aggressive with the latest & greatest hardware so they need to shore up the low and middle ends of the marketplace and (for the time being) use Treos to dabble in the higher margin devices. I'm fine with Palm staying mid-market feature wise while simultaneously focusing on maintaining/perfecting what made them grow by leaps & bounds in the late 90s--battery life, UI, speed, stability, software base etc.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
sr4 @ 7/21/2005 5:45:47 PM # Q

I have a suspicion that the Growth and Peak of Palm was due to irrational exuberance at the turn of the century. When the bubble burst, so did Palm, and device shipments never really recovered. Now they DID ship a pile of devices, but obviously people were as much caught up in the high tech go-go atmosphere as the companies. Obviously after investing $1000's in high-tech companies whats $300-500 on a PDA to keep track of it all. I suspect most of these devices are in drawers somewhere.

Did you know in 2002 Gartner still predicted $17 billion PDA's would be shipped by 2007?
http://www.clickz.com/stats/sectors/hardware/article.php/1472941

This 1999 article from CNN (which is actually quite good) really gives a feeling of the optimisms of the time. It talks of PDA's outshipping desktops by 2003, selling more than 21 million.
http://cgi.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9907/14/handheld.idg/

Win CE has grown more slowly and rationally, and will hopefully be more resilient to change in market conditions.

Surur

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
hkklife @ 7/22/2005 9:24:33 AM # Q
What was Palm Inc's peak sales year? 99? 2000? It was definitely one of the two. At any rate, most of the handhelds shipped and sold during the PDA blizzard of that time period are either in a drawer/landfill somewhere or STILL in use.

I see Palm Vs and Visor Pros fairly often. In fact, the most "common" new device I see would be T|Es, Treos 600/650s or the previous-gen Axims & iPaqs. I've never seen a LifeDrive, T5 etc from Palm out in "the wild" so to speak.

WinMob has grown more slowly and rationally, yes, but I still maintain that Palm needs to keep their focus on the low and midrange of the market ($250 and below). In fact, I'd advise all future Palm models (non-Treos that is) to launch at $300 or below, with a very strong emphasis on the key $200 price point.

RE: Maybe They Should Change the R&D and Design Team...
twrock @ 7/22/2005 10:51:14 PM # Q
Except for the features appropriate only to POS (HVGA & GI/II) the device you describe is a mid-level Dell. For $250.

Yep, and it irks me to no end that I can't get that hardware without moving to WinMob. Or, I have to pay twice as much for a LD and get the "hard drive feature" that I so desparately don't want. (No offense to you LD owners who love your "gigs of storage", but I'd rather have the size/weight/battery-usage reduction and choose my own storage size in the form of "non-moving" flash memory which I will likely still be using long after your hard drive grinds to a halt.)

T5 body, T3 feature set, + Wifi, + a second card slot. How hard can that be? And if I can get that on a PPC for <$300, why can't Palm do it?

My T2's digitizer is dying. I'm in the market for a replacement. If the rumored T7 doesn't show up soon or shows up with the "dumbed-down" T5 feature set, I am seriously going to have to consider another platform. And..., It has nothing to do with the name or logo.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

Reply to this comment

Toy Logo!!!

Gekko @ 7/15/2005 12:23:57 AM # Q

Son of a biitch!!! I knew I recognized that friggin logo! Those bastards!!!

http://tinyurl.com/7gkmr



RE: Toy Logo!!!
ackmondual @ 7/15/2005 7:24:34 AM # Q
What's the context here?

this seems the most random post ever otherwise

RE: Toy Logo!!!
DevPOV @ 7/15/2005 11:55:30 AM # Q
OMG. The context is this whole thread!

Reply to this comment

orange's sole smartphone supplier

gadgeteer @ 7/15/2005 3:48:27 AM # Q
It could be a good gesture shown to orange,the European telco, look, even our logo's colour schemes are in perfect match!

http://www.orange.com/English/productsandservice/phones6.asp

RE: orange's sole smartphone supplier
LiveFaith @ 7/15/2005 10:45:21 AM # Q
Or better yet, they could be moving their headquarters to Knoxville and are looking for some low taxes?
http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/tenn/sports/m-footbl/04-05action/a-ainge_3034.jpg

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
Reply to this comment

Palms won't be too popular with Israeli bigwigs...

joad @ 7/15/2005 3:03:17 PM # Q
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/5994.htm

" The Sharon government has decided to aggressively expand criminal sanctions against the use of the color orange ..."


Reply to this comment

What about their stock?

Ba-gug @ 7/15/2005 3:06:18 PM # Q
I realize that Palm stock really isn't worth the paper it was written on, after a 20-1 reverse split, then divided into two camps, but what will happen now to my 1 1/2 shares? :-0
RE: What about their stock?
joad @ 7/16/2005 3:12:53 AM # Q
"Orange" you glad you don't have a hundred shares...!

Reply to this comment

Stare at the Logo!

Gekko @ 7/16/2005 12:45:56 AM # Q

Hello! We're Palm, Inc.! You see that logo? It instills awe in you, doesn't it? You are getting sleepy! Keep staring at the Palm logo. You are getting sleepy. Focus on the logo. Now repeat after me - 'I will pay far more than someone with common sense would pay because of the Palm logo.' Say it. Good. Now, keep repeating it. That's right. Just keep repeating it. Excellent!

(adapted from John Berger)



RE: Stare at the Logo!
joad @ 7/16/2005 3:14:02 AM # Q
It works. I will now rush out and buy the next Treo even if they substitute orange peel for what used to be RAM - I only THOUGHT I needed RAM.... And go ahead and tack on whatever you need to pay off that brilliant acquisition of the Palm name, sky's the limit...

Thank you for your help, John Berger.

RE: Stare at the Logo!
SeldomVisitor @ 7/17/2005 11:03:24 AM # Q
Only thing that happens when I stare at the new logo is when I look away I get a blue logo on any white background...

RE: Stare at the Logo!
joad @ 7/17/2005 5:33:50 PM # Q
NOW I remember where I saw the new "logo" before!!!

http://home.ingdirect.com/products/products.html

It seems like an exact 'cut and paste' job from the ING corporate identity. Just add some strange futuristic font for the "Palm" part.

So maybe the designer was bored redesigning the logo every other year and just outsourced the thing this time to some high school kid for a hundred bucks and an E2. If they paid more, they paid too much.

Now when I log onto ING direct from my Treo 700 (with 256MB Real RAM) I will see TWO orange logos. Radical, dude.

Reply to this comment

Knock Knock!

Timothy Rapson @ 7/16/2005 10:32:56 AM # Q
Knock knock!
Who's there?

Palm

Palm who?
Just Palm.

Knock knock!
Who's there?

Palm

Palm who?
PalmOne.

Knock knock!
Who's there?

Plame

Plame who?
Plame/Wilson.


Knock knock!

Who's there?
Palm

Palm Who?
PalmSource

Knock knock!

Who's there?
Palm

Palm who?
PalmSomebody, we are not sure who anymore.

Knock knock!

Who's there.
Orange!

Orange who?

“Orange” you glad we didn't say PalmWindows!

RE: Knock Knock!
joad @ 7/16/2005 6:13:58 PM # Q
Now their home page reads:

Palm, formerly known as PalmOne, formerly known as Palm.


You've come a long way, baby...

RE: Knock Knock!
ozz @ 7/17/2005 12:01:17 AM # Q
Doesn't Palm know that the word "orange" is the ONLY word in the english language that doesn't rhyme with any other word. WAY TO GO, PALM!!!! So, I just can't WAIT to hear the new Palm jingle that their ad agency is working on. :-| ....we're waiting....waiting....
RE: Knock Knock!
Timothy Rapson @ 7/17/2005 12:22:41 PM # Q
Roses are red
Violets are purple
Sugar is sweet
and so's maple Syruple.

Palm, Inc. formerly palmOne, Inc. formerly Palm, Inc.
Gekko @ 7/17/2005 3:42:28 PM # Q

that's funny - and true! at the top it says:

"Welcome to palmOne, formerly Palm, Inc."

and in the middle of the page it says

"Palm, Inc. (formerly palmOne, Inc.)"

but it should say -

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshiit." - W. C. Fields



Reply to this comment

Cobalt Rising

mikecane @ 7/17/2005 10:29:20 AM # Q
Next Treo will have Cobalt?

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=90603&highlight=wifi

These specs would make it The Cellphone Even *I* Will Want To Buy.

Please please please please please please please please please Ed, let this be so.

There are just SO many faces here I want to rub it into.

Let this be the death of Infinite Garnet!

RE: Cobalt Rising
SeldomVisitor @ 7/17/2005 11:02:10 AM # Q
Gullible, rh?

RE: Cobalt Rising
mikecane @ 7/17/2005 11:10:24 AM # Q
Given the Glacial Speed of Palm innovating, this timetable makes sense.

I bought the slanders against 6.0, but I still maintain that 6.1 *is* ready for prime time.

Make it so, Ed!

RE: Cobalt Rising
Foo Fighter @ 7/17/2005 11:21:30 AM # Q
Oh please. This anonymous tip has no credibility. Who was it submitted by, RhinoSteve?

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Cobalt Rising
hkklife @ 7/17/2005 11:38:06 AM # Q
Just give me a LD with Cobalt, more cache, bigger HD, and a bigger battery!

This falls right in line with my previous thoughts---PalmOne "nudged" PalmSource to get Cobalt 6.1 to a working,shipping level. Then during the "Palm" acquisition, some secret treaty was signed to let P1 buy up Cobalt and all its related IP this fall for pennies on the dollar. That'll ensure three things:

-P1/Palm can field a decent line of Cobalt-equippied handhelds & Treos in 2006
-PalmSource gets a badly needed cash injection (past the $30 mil they already got) to hang in there a while longer to develop PoL
-No other licensees can get their hands on a Cobalt unless they can pry it out of Palm's hands and/or struck a deal earlier with PalmSource (GSPDA etc).

All of this adds up to what will basically be Palm releasing at least two or three Cobalt units in '06, buying up the pieces of PalmSource at firesale pricing in fall '06, and getting a Treo running PoL by fall '07.

Properly tweaked/patched, Garnet IS still srvicable for low to midrange handhelds for the next year (think T|E2 and below). It's the LifeDrives/T7/Treos that so desperately need Cobalt. Like Mike, I've still be maintaining that all of that time, man-hours, and $ thrown at Cobalt is going to pay off EVENTUALLY for SOMEONE.



RE: Cobalt Rising
Timothy Rapson @ 7/17/2005 12:27:19 PM # Q
Someone is having fun spicing up the Summer doldrums in the industry. Over at Brighthand the thread discussing this has been joined by a "M Mace" (Who has just registered and posted 3 times total. Almost certainly NOT Mike Mace of Palms). It is my guess that this clown is also posting the nonsense this week at TreoCentral.

He actually sounds fun to me. I mean, how much more fun can it be. Posting the exact rumors that everyone who is still stupid enough to believe anything Palm says believed the last 5 times. Fun, and interesting in an annoying and boring kind of way.

RE: Cobalt Rising
Timothy Rapson @ 7/17/2005 12:32:16 PM # Q
And, HKKLIFE, this fits with the LG license story. LG rushed in with the last chance to license all three OSs that PalmSource can't produce properly. The fact that the head of PS left last month fits too. P1 used him as the scapegoat when the shareholders complained about that deal for LG that might cut into P1 profits.
But, really it won't matter one bit. By the time P1 gets any such plan into action Nokia and WM will have buried them. Nokia's OS progresses and matches very well with models that work and are a good value. WM has been waiting until the hardware is fast enough and a couple more details make it more desirable (merging WM PPC PE and SmartPhone editions and adding that new push Email feature.) That will be here long before Palm's new SUPER TREO PLAN gets here.

Along about Christmas we'll hear someone calling himself "M Mace" revealing exactly the same rumors about the new Treo/DeathStar/Dire model that runs Lipalm.

RE: Cobalt Rising
Gekko @ 7/17/2005 3:21:17 PM # Q

FrankenGarnet and FrankenCobalt! Back from the dead!!!

http://x3.putfile.com/7/18915252740.jpg



RE: Cobalt Rising
mikecane @ 7/17/2005 8:40:05 PM # Q
Do Let's Pretend. Pretend it is true.

Why would it take so long for Palm to spit it out?

1) This is the way they are
2) PalmSource dropped Mac syncing
3) Palm would have to write a new Desktop/HotSync software for Cobalt anyway -- including the *Mac* version.
4) Having gotten the Treo established, they can now risk amping the OS

Numbers are illustrative, not time-sequential...

And I'd REALLY like it to be true. The bump in RAM/FRAM/whatever makes sense, although I'd like to see 128MB, not 64MB.

For the naysayers -- why would WANT it to be UNTRUE?

RE: Cobalt Rising
Timothy Rapson @ 7/17/2005 9:07:51 PM # Q
My guess is that they dropped MacSync from the Palm OS because Palms knew that Apple was coming out with a big fancy new highly supported iSync of their own. It is for the iPods, but Apple is supporting Palms for some categories of info, pictures, PIMs, asn such.(alas, not for music. Apple foolishly will ultimately fail with the iPod and iTunes because they won't allow use on an MP3 player. This is so dumb. I signed up all ready topay them for music and I can do so and copy the stuff to a CD and play it, but not copy it to my Zire 72? Dumb Apple.)

If Apple is going to do that why should Palm spend their money on it?

RE: Cobalt Rising
ChiA @ 7/17/2005 10:22:36 PM # Q
they dropped MacSync from the Palm OS because...


I think PalmSource dumped the Mac syncing simply in order to cut costs in order to survive! There's no point having Mac syncing when there's no Palm OS to provide!

PalmSource has sunk to the same level of desperation as a man with gangrene in his leg: He may not like hopping along but he's got to chop off his leg if he's to save himself. The question we're all asking here is whether PalmSource has cut away enough of the infection or worse still, cut his head off by mistake in the effort to save himself?
Palm (formerly PalmOne) has been donating blood (dollars) for the operation but that's so it can be first in line for PalmSource's organs (PalmLinux) should it croak on the table.


It did surprise me to find out that the Mac sync was different to the Windows sync. I still don't understand why the Mac can't speak to Palm OS the same way Windows can. After all, we use different browsers on different platforms (XP, OS X, Linux, Symbian) yet they all (by and by) interpret HTML in the same way.

Perhaps this is something Mark/Space have achieved with their Palm syncing software for Mac OS X.

----------
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight � it�s the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: Cobalt Rising
ChiA @ 7/17/2005 10:55:34 PM # Q
Timothy Rapson said:
Apple foolishly will ultimately fail with the iPod and iTunes because they won't allow use on an MP3 player. This is so dumb.

Apple recently announced making a profit of 330 million dollars in their last quarter.

This suggests:
a) with rising sales of BOTH iPods AND Apple Macs there's something Apple is doing right which PalmSource and Palm are doing wrong.
b) at this rate PalmSource and Palm will be long dead and buried by the time Apple "fails" with the iPod.

Apple uses iTunes as a loss leader to sell iPods, just as Microsoft uses Windows as a loss leader to sell Office and other expensive Microsoft software. Therefore Apple won't allow other players to connect to iTunes any more than Microsoft will allow PC makers to install another OS next to Windows. It's not dumb, it's business.

----------
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight � it�s the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: Cobalt Rising
Timothy Rapson @ 7/18/2005 9:04:03 AM # Q
ChiA wrote "It's not dumb, it's business."


Yeah, you are probably right. I was actually just digging for a response with the comment that iPod will fail. They seem to be playing against their competitors, both hardware and software, much better than Palm is. We'll see.

Reply to this comment

This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/18/2005 10:24:04 PM # Q
OK Surer, against my better judgement I followed your link to Kirvin's little blog site. Unbelievable. Un-****ing-believable. People like Kirvin inadvertently do more damage to the PalmOS platform than a dozen PPC trolls could ever DREAM to accomplish.

To summarize, Kirvin makes a laughably child-like attempt to spread the most ridiculous FUD about Windows Mobile/PPC that I've ever seen in recent memory. Are they teaching Sophism 101 in Adult Education Class now?

First he tries to discredit those who disagree with him by calling them "trolls". Then he claims that the reported gains in market share by Windows Mobile over PalmOS are not real because all of those Windows Mobile devices were just shipped rather than actually being sold. Kirvin will have us believe that evil "managers" at HP and Dell are giving out inaccurate stats to market research firms. Apparently they are telling lies so they will receive thier "bonus" for making their companies look good. He expects people to believe his conspiracy theory as an explanation why "So in the end, Windows Mobile shipments will always be far, far more than Palm, even if the numbers actually sold are roughly the same".

He then claims that HP and Dell are not making money from sales of PDAs, and then takes things a step (or 50!) further by insinuating HP will stop making PDAs. What lovely FUD. He then boasts that Palm has recently been turning a profit (of course failing to mention exactly how meagre those profits have been, and how dependent Palm now is on the Treo - if the Treo gets ANY real competition soon you can kiss Palm's profitability goodbye).

Then he rants:

"What really matters isn't what the trolls do, it's why they're here. Partially, it's because they're bored. They've already driven almost all the pro-Palm posters away from Palm Infocenter, turning that site into a vicious troll echo chamber (enjoy the ad revenue while you still have it, Ryan; alas, PIC, you will be missed)*. But mostly, it's because they don't like our choice. We chose a different handheld platform than they did, and it bugs them. Makes them question their own choice, leads to disagreeable thinking.

They can't say we picked Palm OS because we didn't know any better without admitting how meaningless their own marketshare stats are. After all, if there are so many Pocket PC choices on the market, we must of have known the Pocket PC was an option. And yet we picked Palm OS anyway. What's up with that?"

*Wow, Kirvin. Sounds like you've got a few "issues with Ryan. You're not jealous, are you?

More gems:

"Macintosh fell to Windows. But wait a tick. Look at that last example. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Apple's stock is soaring right now. Did they really lose? If they're profitable (Palm is) and their stock is going up, isn't that the only definition of success that really counts in the corporate world? By following Apple's example, Palm could remain profitable and successful and still have a small minority of marketshare so long as they make the smartphone that everyone else tries— and fails— to beat (which the Treo is)."

Of course he seems clueless that Apple's current profitability is almost all derived from it's success with the iPod. He also seems to think that because Apple survived on a tiny piece of a huge (desktop + laptop) pie, Palm can survive on a tiny piece of a tiny (PDA + smartphones) pie. Most 12 year olds could see the faultiness of that specious bit of Kirvin-style "logic".

"Let's assume for a moment that by sheer coincidence the Windows Mobile trolls are actually right and Windows Mobile marketshare in terms of units in people's actual hands has exceeded Palm OS. We don't know this, of course, because Palm OS users tend to upgrade less frequently than Windows Mobile people; there's still a lot of Palm IIIs out there. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that Windows Mobile really has taken a majority share of the market.

So what? Does this mean my Tungsten T5 doesn't work anymore? Am I required to trade it in for an iPAQ before the PDA cops find me using a "dissident" handheld? No. In fact, my T5 works just as well today as it ever has, and still gets my work done more effectively than any Pocket PC.

Remember, I'm uniquely qualified to judge that. I defected from Palm OS to Windows Mobile in 2000 and stayed in that camp for three years. I've owned seven Windows Mobile devices, including both a Pocket PC Phone Edition and a Windows Smartphone. I know as well as any Pocket PC user out there what the platform is capable of, the pros and cons, nifty features and pitfalls. And in spite of all that I chose to return to Palm OS in 2003, when I bought a Zire 71. Since then, I've had a Tungsten E, Tungsten T3, Zodiac 2 and my current Tungsten T5 (did I really say Palm OS users don't upgrade much?). I know what Pocket PCs can do (and really, other than landscape and VGA, don't tell me all that much has changed since 2003) and I still chose Palm OS.

That's got to eat at these people. It's got to drive them freaking batty. I'm blatantly flaunting the majority rule! I'm a dissident, a troublemaker, a malcontent!"

Kirvin's starting to get a bit scary at this point. And notice how he tries to make himself appear to be a credible commentator!

Someone then asks Kirvin "I guess what I'm asking is whether you know for a fact that Palm's sell-through ratio is close to 100%? Or is that just an educated guess?"

Kirvin's response? Gotta love it: "Alas, I can't post those numbers. I got them from a market report that cost many thousands of dollars that was given to me under NDA. See, the real numbers are hard to find. The BS numbers anyone can see."

Surer responds "Argumentum ad Verecundiam

Quote:
An appeal to authority is a type of argument in logic also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it, where an unsupported assertion depends on the asserter's credibility). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge and is often a logical fallacy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Jeff, I hope you can admit to have been wrong on a number of occasions. I hope this is not seen as a personal attack, but you have lost credibility over the last few months.

Surur"

And Kirvin barfs out more FUD: "Oh, believe me if I had a source that wasn't under NDA, I'd use it. But by your "reasoning," I have two choices:

a) Expose my source and expose myself to a lawsuit for disclosing details I said I wouldn't disclose.

b) Pretending I don't know what I know.

One is stupid, the other is a lie. I'm sorry the truth hurts you Surur, but that doesn't make it less true.

Your shipment numbers mean nothing. They're based on guesses and untrustworthy sources, and don't count units returned.

The entire iPAQ division is likely (not a given, but likely) to be part of HP's forthcoming 25,000 person layoff (see the Washington Post for the 25k number).

Windows Mobile is just as "doomed" in the PDA space as Palm OS. Both will thrive in cell phones, but the slate-form tablet handheld will soon run a desktop OS, not a mobile OS.

I have it straight from the horse's mouth that the iPAQ line is a loser for HP.

I predict that there will be no new designs for iPAQs. HP is about to receive a huge shipment of 6500s from HTC, so they have to sell them. But once the existing stock is gone, I expect HP to quietly depart the field.

No one here in the US is going to buy a $650 hx4700 when they can get a "real" laptop for just $100 more.

Why doesn't Palm make a high end device with all the fixin's? Because no one buys them. HP and Dell learned that lesson too late. Sony figured it out, though."

Surer then shows how full of poo Kirvin is by providing a link showing HP is making money off its handhelds:

(http://tinyurl.com/bgs8t)

"Personal Appliances grew 35% year on year 2003 vs 2004, with 886 million in revenue. It was the fastest growing part of the PSG (besides calculators for some reason). It grew three times as fast as notebooks, and 6 times as fast as desktops.

Maybe this explains why they got a former PalmOne CEO to head up the devision.

Jeff, I do my research. Please do yours"

Kirvin's (embarassed?) response: "Interesting. It's still a drop in the bucket compared to HP's business as a whole, but interesting. And comparing it to notebook and desktop sales is meaningless as those have been "mature" markets for some time now and aren't expected to grow much. Nice diversion, though."

Surer presses on relentlessly: "In this debate I'm actually the only one able to proffer any evidence. Its pretty disappointing that all the numbers in the world is not convincing anyone. I guess that separates true believers from realists.

Surur"

Kirvin essentially admits defeat but still pretends he didn't just get his sorry a$$ kicked "No, it's just that the "evidence" you've presented is all inconclusive. I'd just as soon not have this discussion, as there's nothing we'll know for sure until time plays out. But I'm not going to let misleading "statistics" go unchallenged, either."

************************************************************************

Then in Kirvin's latest epic novel/blog post, "If I Were Palm CEO..." we see these nuggets:

- "So here's what I'd change if I were Palm's CEO. I'd start a blog, a real one. Not written by a flunky, written by me. Mark Cuban can write a CEO blog, so why can't Palm's CEO? Palm is a small, focused company, and that's the kind of company that would benefit most from some real communication with their customers."

and the piece de resistance: "I would hire a few Palm geeks, prominent members of the user community with established name recognition, to work for Palm and surf the various discussion boards all day. They'll be given full access to what's coming up at Palm, new products, and access to the developers." I wonder if Kirvin considers himself to be one of the "prominent members of the user community with established name recognition"? Hmmmm... Is Kirvin still out of work? Hmmmm...

I hope people will remember this thread whenever seeing anything from Kirvin in the future. He has ZERO credibility in the PDA world. He recently took a few shots at Palm/PalmSource, no doubt to give the illusion that he isn't just a pompomed cheerleader, but rather a hardhitting, trustworthy "journalist". Palm would be wise to steer clear of him as he continues to angle for a job with them. If he has in fact been hired to Astrturf for Palm, he's doing a pi$$ poor job and will quickly become a massive liability for the company. People aren't stupid. They can smell B.S. a mile away. And something about Kirvin just doesn't smell right...


TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Will Palm hire Mike Cane, Kent Pribbernow and Ska? Umm... No
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2005 12:40:01 AM # Q
"If I (Jeff "Eggo" Kirvin) Were Palm CEO..."

"I would hire a few Palm geeks, prominent members of the user community with established name recognition, to work for Palm and surf the various discussion boards all day. They'll be given full access to what's coming up at Palm, new products, and access to the developers."


OK, Kirvin. Pick seven from this list:

Foo Fighter (Kent Pribbernow)*
Ska
Mike Cane
cbowers*
The Voice of Reason*
Larry Garfield*
Surur*
Jeff Kirvin
SeldomVisitor (hengeem)
Gekko
hkklife*
twizza (Antoine Wright)*
LiveFaith (Pat Horne)
RhinoSteve
svrontis

My two personal favorites:

e-tellurian
vesther


*The actual members of this new "Magnificent Seven". Strange how Kirvin's not on the list...


TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
E Ben G @ 7/19/2005 1:01:04 AM # Q
I can't believe I'm even responding to this. But here's my one line summary of TVoR's post: how can anybody really still take Kirvin seriously???

Jeesh.

I kept my mouth shut, but I took Kirvin's side during his stint here on PIC because I thought his reception was unnecessarily nasty. But come on, I almost find PIC's bitterness easier to stomach than the sycophantic responses Kirvin gets to his silly nonsense on other forums.

I suppose I should still keep my mouth shut...

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
E Ben G @ 7/19/2005 1:11:29 AM # Q
And TVoR, I'm surprised you didn't mention Kirvin's threats to delete Surur's posts because he didn't properly hyperlink. What?!?

OOOOOOH. What a big man.

Talk about big fish in a little pond.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2005 1:27:38 AM # Q
And TVoR, I'm surprised you didn't mention Kirvin's threats to delete Surur's posts because he didn't properly hyperlink. What?!?

OOOOOOH. What a big man.

Talk about big fish in a little pond.

That's par for the course with Kirvin. There's more that I could have said about this, but I think people already have seen his true colors. Every time he writes anything, he makes himself look even more foolish than anyone could make him look by dismantling his puerile "logic". It's amazing that PalmSource actually let him interview for a job with them. Their HR people must be on crack .

I posted this here at PIC so we will hopefully have a permanent record of the "real" Jeff Kirvin. No doubt anything I would have posted over at his blog site in rebuttal to his ridiculous rant would have been quickly deleted by either Kirvin or one of his circle jerk buddies. I hope Palm gets the message. This guy is NOT someone they need "helping" them.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
AdamaDBrown @ 7/19/2005 1:42:28 AM # Q
I've had my share of disagreements with Kirvin, but I used to find him preferable to some of the mindless zealots that you found lurking around here, in that he actually discussed things in a reasonable manner and exchanged opinions. Now, he seems to have become the zealot. Disappointing.

I've heard that same ridiculous shipped-versus-sold and units-returned argument from other people, and the answer remains the same. The number of units that would have to be returned to restore the sales numbers to what these folks have in their heads is mind-boggling. And the idea that somehow manufacturers can get away with over-shipping products, month after month, without selling them... Does he think that Dell, who ships directly to their customers, is including two or three extra Axims in each box?

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/19/2005 3:26:43 AM # Q
His accusations of channel stuffing is particularly ironic since Palm, a hand-held only company, has a particular interest in maintaining shipped numbers. Maybe this is why THEY have actually been accused of channel stuffing after their IPO.

Several analysts are expressing concerns about "channel stuffing," saying that there is far too much inventory sitting on the shelves of retailers and distributors at a time when consumer spending is decreasing. Channel stuffing refers to when companies continue to ship their products to distributors and retailers, despite a slowdown in demand.

"Clearly, the impact to Palm will be in the next quarter where Palm will have to work off channel inventory by slashing production, reducing sales into the channel, and providing incentives to stimulate sales out" of the channel, UBS Warburg analyst Don Young wrote in a research note.

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-254870.html?legacy=cnet

Their record shipment numbers were followed, predictably, by a precipitous drop in shipment, just what one would expect from a channel stuffing expedition.

Its puts Palm's supposed misstep in 2001 in a new light, doesn't it. Maybe this stock manipulation has been going on for a very long time.

Surur

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2005 3:32:19 AM # Q
I've had my share of disagreements with Kirvin, but I used to find him preferable to some of the mindless zealots that you found lurking around here, in that he actually discussed things in a reasonable manner and exchanged opinions. Now, he seems to have become the zealot. Disappointing.

Actually, it appears that he's worse than a zealot. He's become a manipulative individual who pretends to know a lot more about PDAs and the PDA industry than he actually does. I suspect his desire to work for Palm is at the root of his attacks. Kirvin's frequent bashing of Palminfocenter is very sad. Makes me wonder why he (or is it Palm?) are so fearful of what is likely the only remaining site that tries to encourage honest discussion of all sides of the issues. In reading his posts, I've been stunned to learn how little he knows about PDAs despite Kirvin having blogged about them for several years. In recent weeks he's apparently taken to plagiarizing posts from various Palm sites as he tries to come up with semi-coherent material to post. He's actually become the laughingstock of the PDA community.

Unlike you, I've never found "Eggo" Kirvin to have had anything remotely interesting to say. He waffles even more than his namesake. Most recently he ranted aggressively about the current PalmOS being able to effectively only to quickly backpedal after several of us pointed out that he is full of poo. He then changed tactics saying, "Do Palms really multitask? Who cares?" Kirvin has repeated flip flopped from being blindly gung ho about one device after another, one platform after another over the years, seemingly lacking the perspective to appreciate that no single device or platform is perfect. He pretends to be a PDA "expert", yet lacks even rudimentary understanding about PDA OSes, hardware software, or the industry. He couldn't debate his way out of a wet paper bag, and when he's (repeatedly) made to look like a fool during an online debate, Kirvin resorts to calling everyone he disagrees with "trolls" or "wingnuts", etc. How impressive.

I've heard that same ridiculous shipped-versus-sold and units-returned argument from other people, and the answer remains the same. The number of units that would have to be returned to restore the sales numbers to what these folks have in their heads is mind-boggling. And the idea that somehow manufacturers can get away with over-shipping products, month after month, without selling them... Does he think that Dell, who ships directly to their customers, is including two or three extra Axims in each box?

As Palm's fortuners have declined, the absurdity of the rationalizations and excuses have increased exponentially. In the past six years we've heard Palm and its Apologists say "Who needs color screens, expansion, multimedia, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, VGA screens and now multitasking. No doubt if PalmLinux ever gets released, Kirvin will be blogging that multitasking (REAL multitasking!) is the most important advance ever seen on PDAs.

Caveat lector!

TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
SeldomVisitor @ 7/19/2005 6:13:37 AM # Q
For whatever reason, Palm has started revealing sell-through numbers (I personally believe the Sarbanes/Oxley stuff forced their hand, but I literally have nothing to back up that belief) and, more importantly IMHO, has started calling THEM "revenue units".

Some time back they revealed sell-in numbers for a bunch of quarters.

I took the two respective slides and cross-correlated them fairly roughly to get sell-in/sell-through for TREO 600/650s for a bunch of quarters NOT including the last one:

-- http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&board=1607137051&tid=plmo&sid=1607137051&action=m&mid=52175

Follow the "reply to" to get to the original post discussing the slides.

The sell-through/sell-in percent ratio was about 78%, I think. I do not know what it is now.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/19/2005 9:11:58 AM # Q
The scary thing is how dealer inventory just increased through the year.

........In......Out.....diff....Left On Shelves
q2 04 99000 80000 19000 19000
q3 04 138000 100000 38000 57000
q4 04 151000 120000 31000 88000
q1 05 237000 160000 77000 165000
q2 05 340000 200000 140000 305000
q3 05 280000 280000 0 305000

Q3 05 is in balance however. Does this mean they recalled or wrote of a large amount of stock?

BTW SeldomVisitor, where can I download these presentations?

Surur

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/19/2005 9:17:55 AM # Q
With better formatting

........In......Out.....diff....Left On Shelves
q2 04___99000___80000___19000___19000
q3 04___138000__100000__38000___57000
q4 04___151000__120000__31000___88000
q1 05___237000__160000__77000___165000
q2 05___340000__200000__140000__305000
q3 05___280000__280000__0_______305000

Surur

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
twrock @ 7/19/2005 9:27:30 AM # Q
I almost find PIC's bitterness easier to stomach than the sycophantic responses Kirvin gets to his silly nonsense on other forums.

I do find PIC's "bitterness" easier to stomach.

After the recent bout of JK on this site, I dropped in on 1SRC to see for myself. I listened to a few of the podcasts and read through some of the threads. According to the last podcast I tortured myself with, JK would label me a troll! Yes, someone appears to have gone off the deep end.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
SeldomVisitor @ 7/19/2005 9:27:58 AM # Q
I don't remember which presentations contained the two slides - one was slide #13 from one presentation, the other slide #26 from the other. Both presentations at one time or other were/are on PalmOne's (...) website. The first dates from February or even much earlier, the other dates from just a few (max) months ago. Both were from "presentations" as opposed to, say, earnings calls.

I'll give a peek and see if I can find them but don't hold me to it (I have my own copies of those two slides but don;t feel right about posting links to them since they aren't "mine").

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Gekko @ 7/19/2005 9:43:44 AM # Q

Kirvin is the "Michael Moore" of the Palm world. I think they look alike too.



RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
SeldomVisitor @ 7/19/2005 9:44:52 AM # Q
This is the followup - this link:

-- http://ir.palmone.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=105423&p=irol-presentations

takes you to the "presentations" webpage at Palm. TWO of those presentations MAY be the pertinent ones - unfortunately I do not remember which two (if they are present at all). Bring up the pertinent presentation, don't worry about listening to it, and skip forward to slide #13 or slide #26. There SHOULD be a graph showing first sell-in for TREOs in general (since the beginning up to some point in time) and sell-through for TREO 600/650s in the most recent slide/chart.

RE: Will Palm hire Mike Cane, Kent Pribbernow and Ska? Umm..
mikecane @ 7/19/2005 10:14:52 AM # Q
I'm not for hire, you pathetic stalking loser.

As for holding people to account, why don't you post under your real name?

And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

How to carry classic Kirvin quotes with you 24/7:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2005 10:51:17 AM # Q
Carry Kirvin on your Palm:

http://tinyurl.com/6lhzs

http://tinyurl.com/bo7tl

Several times a day I turn to Kirvin's classic quotes for the reassurance I need...

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2005 10:59:57 AM # Q
Correction from above: "Most recently he ranted aggressively about the current PalmOS being able to effectively MULTITASK only..."


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
hkklife @ 7/19/2005 11:13:10 AM # Q
Thanks for the nod & acknowledgement, VoR. I too went on over to Kirvin's site to see what his latest rant was about. After a brief spell when he seemeded to be catching his breath and not spewing AS much utter nonsense as before, it's safe to say he's back to his old ways.

I will give him the benefit of being right on two issues:
-Assign Rob Haitani and crew the thankless task of cobbling together a STABLE OS 5.x that will shore up the low to middle segment of the lineup for the forseeable future.

-Make the marketing less "cuddle tech" (look it up) and more upfront & honest about feature sets etc. Its fine if retail packaging touts "gigs of storage" but at least let the Palm website say that the DeathDrive has <32mb RealRam cache and a 4gb non-replacable MicroDrive. I also want a matrix clearly defining battery capacities, CPU manufacturer,family, & clockspeed etc etc.

And I've really had just about enough of the (dwindling) PIC faithful being called trolls, bashers, inflammatory posters etc. Dammit, I challenge you to find a more concerned and tightly-knit group of users worried about the SAME thing (the ultimate fate of a beloved OS and its related hardware) anywhere in mobile techdom (Transformer fans & classic gaming/PC sites do not count because that level of fanaticism goes beyond loyalty to a platform).

I'd like to see take Voice's list of the "magnificent" and add up how many man-years os Palm OS usage is represented by everyone accounted for there. I'll wager that Palm OS has more current users that have been in the fold since 96/97 than WinMob has from the early days of CE. I tried mightily to deal with a Compaq CE 2.0 device back in the day but it was just too difficult and I returned to my Pilot Professional and haven't looked back since.

There are plenty of rah-rah Palm sites out there blissfully ignorant of the state of turmoil the various Palm entities are in and the growing disinterest from the developer community. I think PIC manages to skillfully toe the line between hard-edged "biz" insider commentary/criticism of the Palmarketplace, users tips & tech support/advice, and breaking news items. If some of the more zealous Brighthand posters would jump ship to the PIC forums, we'd really have the technical discussions covered as well.

1src is nearly all tech stuff & rumors and their posters seem devoid of any real personalities. Brighthand is a good source for software/modding info but their editorial staff got their knickers removed for easy access by P1's marketing dept. long, long ago. It's again time to give Ryan kudos for unwaveringly sticking to his guns and running a "real" community site. He's also taken the high route and ignored Kirvin's baseless accusations/insinuations. Isn't it funny how Kirvin's site went from being about e-books and how to write a novella on your Palm's word processor to a rant/tirade blog? The sad thing is that he occasionally makes a good point, especially in regards to Palm's support policies or developer relations but it's always lost amongst the squealing...

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
hkklife @ 7/19/2005 11:30:39 AM # Q
Edit: By "you" in the above post, I mean the collective "you" as in the Palm Apologists/WinMob trolls, not anyone one user in particular.

So, with all that out of the way....where are the latest T7 rumors?

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/19/2005 9:52:33 PM # Q
Please take my name off the list. I am not a commentor. I just read the forum and reply occassionally to the more naive or ridiculous comments made by Whiners (you know who you are).

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2005 11:13:03 PM # Q
I'm not for hire, you [SNIP].

As for holding people to account, why don't you post under your real name?

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

I think my posts under "The Voice of Reason" have shown that I know what I'm talking about, I'm brutally honest, and have little patience with those who prefer to spread lies, SPIN, FUD and BS. Most of the things I say have either already been or are now being proven to be true, and I think my posts here can easily stand for themselves. If I tell you who The Voice of Reason really is (actually several people spread among a few countries are posting under this name, in case you didn't realize ;-O) I don't think it would alter the validity of TVoR's posts, now would it?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to... you know... kill you.

THINK about it, Caney.

And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

?
Please explain that one, Little Man.

TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/19/2005 11:40:13 PM # Q
Please take my name off the list. I am not a commentor. I just read the forum and reply occassionally to the more naive or ridiculous comments made by Whiners (you know who you are).

Read it again, Sweetie. You and RhinoSteve didn't make the cut. I'm sure we're all as shocked as you are, but I hope you'll be able to move on...



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
mikecane @ 7/20/2005 9:53:12 AM # Q
>>>Please explain that one, Little Man.

You know exactly what I mean.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/20/2005 9:14:31 PM # Q
> Read it again, Sweetie. You and RhinoSteve didn't make the cut. I'm sure we're all as shocked as you are, but I hope you'll be able to move on...

Thanks, Vat of Refuse - you are too kind.

I look forward to reading your next few thousand posts about how Sony will destroy Palm. Wait a minute, hasn't Sony gone out of this business? Never mind. I'm sure you won't let the truth get in the way of your continuing FUD campaign (whoever it is that's paying for it).

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/20/2005 9:14:35 PM # Q
>>>Please explain that one, Little Man.

You know exactly what I mean.

Actually, I don't. Please enlighten us all, Bottom Boy.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/20/2005 9:35:55 PM # Q
Surur,

I enjoyed reading your post about 'channel stuffing'.

Tell me this: does Gartner's figures for Dell units 'shipped' also include the units they give away?

I'll let you in to a dirty little secret - Dell regularly makes 'gifts' of small items of equipment to IT managers as part of a sales pitch. This happened to us - we were looking to buy new servers about a year ago and, all of a sudden, a couple of our IT people got brand new PDA devices from their friends at Dell. Dell made the sale after all (because it was the best deal we could get), but the gifts didn't hurt in their sales pitch.

I don't know if HP and other OEMs do the same but, I guess, there is no reason why they wouldn't. (I remember IBM did the same thing years ago with their Vx clones, but that's ancient history now.)

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/20/2005 9:45:43 PM # Q
I look forward to reading your next few thousand posts about how Sony will destroy Palm. Wait a minute, hasn't Sony gone out of this business? Never mind. I'm sure you won't let the truth get in the way of your continuing FUD campaign (whoever it is that's paying for it).

Sony won't destroy Palm - Palm is quite capable of destroying itself, thank you very much.

You want FUD? How about FACTS instead? Like PalmSource stock dropping like a rock (reached a new all-time low of less than $8 today). Like Cobalt being shunned by Palm. Like Cobalt being slow and unstable. Like a Windows Mobile Treo being announced Real Soon Now. Like PalmLinux development taking at least another 18 - 24 months before devices using it could even THEORETICALLY ship. Like the lack of multitasking in PalmOS sealing the OS's fate... I could go on but biotchslapping etiquette dictates that I should stop once the biotchslappee is slapped senseless.

It's not FUD if it's true, Bubba. Don't cry.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/20/2005 10:00:28 PM # Q
Surur,

I enjoyed reading your post about 'channel stuffing'.

Tell me this: does Gartner's figures for Dell units 'shipped' also include the units they give away?

No doubt you believe that PPC and PalmOS sales figures are equivalent because PPC makers give away one PDA for each one they sell... Yeah. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/20/2005 10:21:30 PM # Q
No.

I believe that the M$ beancounters are itching to terminate development of WinMob 5.0, on the grounds that the WinMob division has never made any money and it looks like it never will.

I also believe that HP is in poor shape, and their iPAQ line may be axed (or severly whittled back) to save on costs. With the largest licensee in such trouble, this can only mean a lot more losses for the WinMob division.

M$ might decide to bear the pain a little while longer for the sake of licensing to smartphone makers - but this will need to be a decision at the M$ Board level.

Let's face it, M$ is not in the business of making losses. The WinMob division has a very poor track record in this regard, despite all the restructurings and the empty promises from the marketing guys year after year.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/20/2005 10:37:01 PM # Q
No.

I believe that the M$ beancounters are itching to terminate development of WinMob 5.0, on the grounds that the WinMob division has never made any money and it looks like it never will.

I also believe that HP is in poor shape, and their iPAQ line may be axed (or severly whittled back) to save on costs. With the largest licensee in such trouble, this can only mean a lot more losses for the WinMob division.

M$ might decide to bear the pain a little while longer for the sake of licensing to smartphone makers - but this will need to be a decision at the M$ Board level.

Let's face it, M$ is not in the business of making losses. The WinMob division has a very poor track record in this regard, despite all the restructurings and the empty promises from the marketing guys year after year.

Nonsense. Look at Microsoft's history. Their M.O. is to identify a new/emerging market and then either copy or buy out the market leader. Others compete by innovating; Microsoft wins by developing or taking advantage of their position to "influence" adoption of the Microsoft option. If they are cloning the leader, Microsoft simply throws its huge resources behind the project, undercuts the competition in price (or simply gives away its product) and keeps developing until the Microsoft offering is chosen by the majority within the marketplace. Once this happens, the competition typically loses momentum quickly, enters a downward spiral and gets "Netscaped". Typically, things accelerate as soon as Microsoft achieves a 50% market share.

Palm is now in the midst of being Netscaped. Unlike Palm, Microsoft sees the "big picture" and wants to offer "Windows Everywhere". By buying their way into the PDA market and the SmartPhone market, Microsoft both protects its core (desktop software) products and can eventually turn a huge profit when its product becomes the "standard". Once they dominate a market, development typically slacks off (SIGNIFICANTLY!) until/unless a new potential competitor emerges. The browser war is one of the best examples of Microsoft's strategy in practice, but Word, Excel, Visio, Outlook, Money, FrontPage, etc., etc. all show similar patterns. And how much money did Microsoft invest in Internet Explorer, which it has continued to give away for free? Do you think that money was wasted? Even if the Windows CE platfoms NEVER turn a profit (but they will), they've already served their function: PalmOS was prevented from becoming a non-Microsoft standard and the existence of WinCE offers a Windows-branded option which keeps end users and corporations thinking "Microsoft" all this time.

As always, try to look at the big picture. And remember: the executives making these strategic decisions aren't stupid. Even Palm execs know EXACTLY what they're doing...


TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/20/2005 11:43:52 PM # Q
I expect that the WinMob executives see the handwriting on the wall already - they ain't stupid. The latest 'Palm is dead' FUD campaign, started over at ppcthoughts.com (and repeated here at PIC with such vehemence by the Whiners), is just a another sign of their growing desperation.

This was also evident in the 'launch' of WinMob 5.0 (how do you 'launch' a product when nobody can buy it?) a while ago. Essentially, they were trying to show what they could deliver in the future if only they had a little more time. It's all there in the press releases - you just need to read between the lines a little. Despite all the marketing glitz, the real objective of this 'launch' related to internal M$ politics - the WinMob division is just trying to buy more time in the hope that they might survive long enough to earn a profit someday (maybe).

They have made the same promises year after year. Result? Red ink - an endless flow of it (although, last year it was not as bad before). But for their markeing guys, the story is always the same - profits are just around the corner; there is light at the end of the tunnell. Year after year the losses have continued.

You have to admire the spirit of the WinMob executives, though - they are not going to go down without a fight. Brave, but futile - because, in the end, the M$ beancounters will not tolerate ongoing losses.

Confession: It bothers me that Mr Kirvan has picked up on this theme on other websites. Given his track record, I'm thinking that if he agrees with me, then my speculations must be wrong. (Anyway, if I'm wrong, I'm sure the Whiners will not neglect to remind me a few thousand times.)

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/21/2005 12:43:06 AM # Q
Bubba, since Apologistitis appears to have both blinded you to the truth and dulled your senses, I'll try to force feed you the facts gagfactor.com -style just one last time. You can draw your own conclusions...

1) Palm's quarterly sales figures are probably less than 2/3 what they were 4 years ago.

2) Windows Mobile now ships in roughly twice the number of units as PalmOS.

3) There are several Windows Mobile licensees. PalmOS has basically just one licensee - Palm.

4) PalmOS 6 (Cobalt) is an utter failure. It has been rejected by every major licensee that it was offered to. It is slow, buggy and comatose. Finally, the plug has been pulled on this latest victim of a Killer "Be" sting.

5) PalmLinux can't possibly ship to consumers until at least late 2006-early 2007. In a moving market, this is around 2 years too late for it to matter.

6) Palm's hardware suffers from lack of quality, lack of features and high price. Poor value becomes a hard sell when companies lose their reputation. Just ask Cadillac.

7) PalmOS has lost/is about to lose its most innovative licensees: HandEra, Sony, Tapwave.

8) PalmSource is in utter chaos.

9) The Treo 600 will soon be copied by Windows Mobile competition.

10) Microsoft has the ability to leverage its other products like MS Exchange, Office, etc. to sway adoption of other Microsoft products.

11) PalmSource's business model is a recipe for bankruptcy. They will NEVER be profitable.

12) Microsoft thinks "big picture" and will sacrifice short term minor losses if it means keeping a stranglehold on a market or keeping competition out. On top of that, Windows Mobile is reportedly now close to breaking even.

I've posted elsewhere that PalmOS 5 can easily soldier on for years to come and have personally invested several thousand dollars in discontinued CLIEs as I don't expect to ever see anyone making PalmOS devices in the future as solidly constructed as CLIEs were. But by faling to innovate (OS + hardware) Palm sealed its fate years ago.

Palm might not be dead, but its breathing is sounding Cheyne-Stokes style these days...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
AdamaDBrown @ 7/21/2005 12:56:32 AM # Q
Yes, Dell gives away devices to certain influential people. Hardware reviewers also get free Axims, if it matters to you. IT managers and professional reviewers amount to what, a few thousand units a year at the most? Are you seriously suggesting that Dell is padding their sales by *that* much? Besides, it's effectively a marketing expense for them.

And, uh, HP made a billion dollars off their iPaqs last year, if I recall. Seriously, $1.15 billion, or around that mark. Given how lackluster most of their recent iPaqs have been, I have to assume that a lot of that is profit, and I can't see HP slashing a profitable unit, particularly now. Their average selling price is over $400: if there's even just $20 of profit in there per unit, then their PocketPCs are more profitable than their desktop and laptop business. There's even less evidence that HP is in danger as a Windows licensee than there is that Palm is dropping Palm OS.

No, Microsoft's WM division isn't making money as far as I know, but they're not really losing any either. Microsoft has much larger money holes, and they tend to hang on to a project until it's proven to be impractical or impossible (see air panels, et al). They're not going to just dump Windows Mobile, particularly now that it's getting major 60/40 leverage in the handheld market. This seems to have been the Palm strategy for several years now--stick your fingers in your ears, hum really loud, and hope that Windows goes away.

As for the issues over Palm being a "FUD campaign," tell it to the Palm loyalists here who agree.

How do you launch a product that no one can buy? I don't know. Let's ask PalmSource, they have plenty of experience. Seriously, it's the same story as ever in handheld OSes, it will be out in a couple of months when the hardware gets here.

I'm all for balance, and I certainly don't want to see Palm end up plowing into the ground, but you're not entitled to make up your own facts to fit an argument. The truth is that Windows isn't going away, PalmOS isn't in a good place to compete, PalmSource is effectively dead, and it's Palm's move. They hold the future of the platform in their hands.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/21/2005 2:55:30 AM # Q

Could svrontis really believe the things he says? Could he realistically believe that the amount of Axim's Dell give away could be significant?

Either way, MS is committed to WM. They expect to dominate the cellphone arena in 3 years time (OK, I'm SURE it will take a lot longer, but either way thats their aim. They want to go from 7.6% WM to 76% Symbian to totally demolishing Symbian. They know what they are up to, and it doesn't sound as if they are going to be leaving the arena soon. If I was Symbian I would be very worried. Look at what happened to PalmSource.

http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS8340426687.html

Due to cheap push e-mail in WM 5.0 blackberry will be just a passing casualty.

Regarding profitability, I'm sure you have seen these graphs before. http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS8331707079.html

I expect profitability later this year or next.

Lastly, as I predicted on WOYP, HP has NOT dropped their handheld line. Kirvin was wrong again. In fact Hurd said "Other promising areas, he said, include wireless and corporate mobility, systems management software, and more managed services. "We could drive plenty of growth there," Hurd said of services, "but we need disciplined growth."

http://tinyurl.com/cag6g

http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/07/20/hp-hurd-interview-cz_qh_0720hp.html

They as much committed to the growth areas, which just happens to be mobile users (and WM users).

Give it up, svrontis. Stop making such weak excuses. Be a bit more creative.

Surur

Palm Apologist Shoots Own Argument in the Foot:
ChiA @ 7/21/2005 4:05:04 AM # Q
svrontis said: Red ink - an endless flow of it (although, last year it was not as bad before). But for their marketing guys, the story is always the same - profits are just around the corner; there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Not as bad as before i.e. Microsoft's WinMob is getting more profitable as time progresses. If the trend continues then it's only a matter of time before it is profitable, so why should Microsoft kill it now?

Let's look at matters from another angle: Judging from the info kindly provided by sr4's link, Microsoft's Mobile & Embedded Division (MED) lost around $75 million for year Apr04 to Mar05.
But, Microsoft has about $37 billion CASH in the bank.
Even assuming a really poor interest rate of 2% (which with $37 billion I'm sure it can do better), Microsoft earns enough interest alone in a month to cover that year's loss in the MED division.

Quite bluntly, Microsoft has the means to buy PalmSource AND Palm in one go in the blink of an eye; it won't be allowed to because the US Govt and EU will see it as creating a PDA monopoly. So it's doing the next best thing and fighting a war of attrition.

I'm no fan of Microsoft but it's time some people here wake up, smell the coffee and see the situation as it is. I prefer PalmOS to Pocket PC anyday but the Pocket PC competition is getting more and compelling as Microsoft continues to refine it, especially when PalmSource's equivalent effort with PalmOS has left a lot to be desired.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Foo Fighter @ 7/21/2005 10:07:53 AM # Q
Oh my. So much delusional thinking, so little time. First of all, while the "What I would do if I were Palm CEO", makes for good cinema, it clearly shows what little business backgrounds people in the PDA community really have. Hiring enthusiasts to hang out of forums and cheerlead products and act as liaisons between community and company? Oh please, Palm would be wasting its payroll money on seven unnecessary positions. No offense to anyone here, but when will folks realize we are the choir. Palm isn't going to improve sales by preaching to the choir, no matter how much unrest there may be in the trumpet section. What Palm needs, like any seller of hardware, is SALES GROWTH. Paying a few dorks to hang out at PIC, Brighthand, or even Pocket PC Thoughts isn't going to translate into sales growth. Not even remotely.

When will you people learn, Palm is NOT GOING TO HIRE YOU! Get this fantasy out of your brain. Palm HR doesn't hang out at PIC hunting for a few good men, or women as the case may be. They hire *gasp* qualified business professionals with the right skills and training they require. They don't want Bubba_146 who hangs out at PIC all day kissing their feet.

What Palm needs to do is branch out into new markets and lessen its dependency of PalmOS handhelds. The handheld segment continues to shrink, and putting well known enthusiasts on the payroll isn't going to reverse that. The answer lay in new markets like Smartphones. If Palm continues pinning its hopes (and revenues) on Tungstens and Zires, they have a very short lifespan ahead of them. Add to that the fact that Windows Mobile is winning in a space they once dominated, and you can see the writing on the wall.

Second, and my favorite, is the argument that Palm can survive (even thrive) on a mere 3-5% market share, just as Apple does. I don't know who started this notion, but it shows once again why handheld companies shouldn't hire PDA enthusiasts; they have no business training. Apple does well at 3% market share because the personal computing space is huge by comparison. A small piece of a big pie is still a huge slice, no matter where you stick the knife. The profit margin (the amount of money earned after costs) on personal computing gear is far greater in contrast to handhelds. On a $2,000-3,000 PowerBook, the profit margin can be in the hundreds. On a Zire 72 the profit margin is well below $100. The reason why Palm is doing well is purely the result of Treo sales performance where margins are highest.

The same is NOT true of the handheld market. Hypothetically speaking, If Palm had 3% of the mobile device market, they would be earning less money than my local Farm and Tractor Supply store. Even 3% of the much...much LARGER wireless handset market is a tiny fragment and not sustainable. Just ask Seimens. They're planning to pull up stakes. Why? Because the profits just aren't there if you don't command volume sales numbers like Nokia.

Palm needs to escape the handheld segment and move on. With the right talent and marketing, they could even move into the digital audio space. Hey, the iPod ain't gonna last forever you know! Although I doubt Palm could match the great industrial design of Creative, Apple, Sony, Cowon, etc., with no background in this area. But still, they already have a vocal zealous community behind them. And I'm sure if Palm did develop a digital audio player, legions of Palm fanboys would eagerly buy them by the handful.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Foo Fighter @ 7/21/2005 11:13:19 AM # Q
As for the channel stuffing accusation; Mike Mace used to make this same baseless argument as well. Years ago when the iPaq first came out, it made a huge splash on the market, and was largely the reason why Pocket PC took off. It was, undeniably, a highly popular and much coveted product. Well, undeniably that is except to one person; Mace. At the time Mace was working his magic at Palm, before the split. He tried desperately to counter the public perception that iPaq was popular, using unit sell-through as a tool. His assertion was that, although iPaqs were shipping out the door faster than McDonald's BigMac, most never get sold, and much of those that do get sold end up being returned due to user frustration. So really the iPaq was in fact not popular at all. Oddly enough, he never had any data to back that up. Ironically, he also claimed that Palms had a high sell-through rate, and most that get sold are never returned due to 100% user SATISFACTION. Hmm..funny, that.

This argument didn't hold water then...when Pocket PC had just 10% market share, and it sure as hell doesn't hold condensation now that Windows Mobile has somewhere between 50-60%.

And to think PalmSource let Mace go? What a great loss.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
hkklife @ 7/21/2005 11:33:19 AM # Q
Last night I went to a concert and my ticket was scanned by venue employees wielding brand-new (cosmetically) Symbol barcode scanners running on Palm III-era hardware.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Palm needs to either set up a tiny little subsidiary branch or a loosely-affiliated hardware division to make RUGGEDIZED versions of their handhelds for vertical/industrial markets. Try to woo some of Symbol's customers--or do a partnership with Symbol---for a tablet-sized, rugged, dual wireless, color POS-based unit with integrated RS232/barcode scanner/RFID capabilities. SDIO + CF slots too. Have heavy-duty user replacable batteries and possibly a keyboard-enabled unit as well. Think a Dana keyboard + Symbol barcode PDA + tablet-sized scren hybrid. Panasonic (and to a lesser degree, Toshiba) would be the ideal company to seek out as a licensee.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Foo Fighter @ 7/21/2005 1:43:05 PM # Q
Another thing I would add to the "If I were Palm CEO" is the badly needed Feature phone platform I ranted about a few months back. That's where the real bread and butter wireless sales are at. Treo is a fantastic product, but it will never reach critical mass. What is needed is a scaled down software platform to compete against Symbian. Unfortunately don't have that, unless they license Windows Mobile.

PalmLinux is 2-3 years away, which is vaporware by tech timeline standards. If Palm could design cell phones like Nokia, and combine that hardware with world class software layered on top. Oh baby!.



-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Timothy Rapson @ 7/21/2005 1:43:12 PM # Q
Hkklife, but Symbol already sells them and they have no production bottleneck. They already cover the market. This Summer I am getting a Symbol to use at work every day carrying mail. The USPS bought hundreds of thousands of them and a new Symbol for broader use was shown recently. It looks like my scanner with a color instead of mono screen, and an SD slot. How in the world could Palm come out with a competing model when Symbol has that kind of manufacturing volume in place?

BTW, my new scanner runs Windows Mobile. I expect Symbol liked the idea that they could call an OS company that could tell them which OS was going to be available from them.....for real, not some Lipalm OS that may or may not have this feature or that one and may or may not appear next year or the year after. Sad, really sad.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Foo Fighter @ 7/21/2005 1:48:56 PM # Q
>> "Last night I went to a concert and my ticket was scanned by venue employees wielding brand-new (cosmetically) Symbol barcode scanners running on Palm III-era hardware."

PDAs show up in the silliest places. Two weeks ago I was shopping at my local grocery store, when I heard the unmistakable sounds of a Pocket PC error message coming from the next aisle. They continued for several minutes, in almost rapid succession. I tried to refrain from laughing, and decided to see what the hell was happening. Did some kid have his parent's iPaq or something?

Much to my surprise I discovered the a store employee carrying a Dell Axim X5 with a Symbol scanner peripheral card, scanning butter. The "error" sound I was hearing was actually just a confirmation message, indicating a successful scan.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Timothy Rapson @ 7/21/2005 1:50:16 PM # Q
I am learning not to disagree with some of the folks here. ChiA, Surer, and VOR just like looking up facts too much:(


I used to love WOYP with Jeff Kirvin. The biggest reason I visited is that he had almost exactly the same basic interests in PDAs I do. Writing. I love having all my writing right in my pocket. (I have had a Mako, mono Ipaq, Sony NR70V, and now two zires--71 &72 with a Palm folding keyboard. It is very nice for that original purpose) Kirvin, I thought, made some wonderful information availabe about which products worked for him and how. I wonder how he ever got to this characature of his original self.

I remember when he was all gaga over the Toshiba thin model (E300?) and dropped Palm. Now, back to Palm. I don't get it. I thought (even hoped) he would make it as a writer some day. Nope. But, he has come unglued. If PPC was just fine when he dumped Palm for an e300, why is PPC so bad now that it is doomed? OH well.

I love these observations:

"He couldn't debate his way out of a wet paper bag, and when he's (repeatedly) made to look like a fool during an online debate, Kirvin resorts to calling everyone he disagrees with "trolls" or "wingnuts", etc. How impressive."

That just so sums up Kirvin's latest thread. I read it over there but saw so little worth in it that I wouldn't even bother to register to respond. I am not suree if K still has his own place or if it is part of PSRC or what. Anyway, the thesis of it is so silly and Kirvin's defense so lame, I just laughed my head off.

Then I come here to find this comment from VOR: about as perfect and concise a descripion of MS as one could ever find:

"Nonsense. Look at Microsoft's history. Their M.O. is to identify a new/emerging market and then either copy or buy out the market leader. Others compete by innovating; Microsoft wins by developing or taking advantage of their position to "influence" adoption of the Microsoft option.........Microsoft both protects its core (desktop software) products and can eventually turn a huge profit when its product becomes the "standard"."


In fact, I have been observing MS for a LONG time and have been a hater of their inferior products for also a very long time. As of now, it appears Palms FrankenOS has done it, they have made their OS as lame by trying to cobble together needed features, as the MS product is. I have heard it said that MS needs three tries to get their product right. Maybe. Maybe it just takes that long for their competitors to mess up their products in fright.

Here is the number one thing anyone need to know about MS to understand who they are and what they will do next. They have never, ever created a successful original product. Ever. Their whole business is protecting, profiting from, and expanding their DOS product. That is it. When Palm's Aubrey threatened that they had to take out Palm and Palm will be gone, just like all the other's except Apple. I am not sure why Apple is still around at all. I guess, Bill sees they are no threat and their desktop model keeps the feds from proving MS has an outright monopoly and splitting them up. MSs has no such need of Palm, Netscape, Word Perfect, etc, so they are all virtually gone...or soon will be.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Foo Fighter @ 7/21/2005 3:42:50 PM # Q
Microsoft has long been rather unfairly accused of stealing market dominance from its past competitors, but the truth is those companies did as much, or more, to put themselves out of business than Microsoft did. Look at Netscape. Their browser was once best of class. It was far ahead of Microsoft's pathetic Internet Explorer 3. Then came IE 4, which turned the tables on Netscape, offering a wave of new features that even Netscape tried to copy (anyone remember Microsoft's push feature called Channels?). Despite its buggy status, IE4 took off. And the argument that IE won because it was bundled with PCs is bull****. Throughout the late nineties most PCs came bundled with BOTH browsers, and yet consumers often chose IE...because it was BETTER than Netscape. From that point on Netscape floundered. Netscape 4 was a mess. And it took them so long to develop their own next generation browser they even had to jump a release to version 6. And we all know how good that browser was. It took several years for the Mozilla foundation to sort out the mess.

WordPerfect is another example. They drug their feet in porting their popular DOS-based word processor to Windows. I believe the CEO once referred to Windows as a fad that would ultimately die out. So Microsoft offered its own homegrown product, and the rest is history.

Victim number 3; Lotus. This Office suite was once a favorite of mine. I was a total Lotus Organizer junky. It was my favorite PIM app, simple to use, well designed, and very lacking in features. Lotus failed to innovate. Microsoft continued to extend and improve its product while Lotus sat on its hands. Every version of Lotus Smartsuite I used from 96 on was nothing more than a rehashed version of the previous product. It didn't help matters that the company's last CEO, Jeff Papows, was a pathological liar. He once claimed he was a fighter pilot during the Gulf war. So, Lotus died..or rather was bought up by IBM, mainly for rights to Notes and Domino.

I have no doubts that PalmOS will be the next victim in this long running soap opera of tech tragedies. However, this time there can be no denial that PalmSource is to blame the demise of their platform, without any help from Redmond. Consumers chose Windows Mobile by choice.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/21/2005 6:08:09 PM # Q
> Years ago when the iPaq first came out, it made a huge splash on the market, and was largely the reason why Pocket PC took off.

You're right (for once). The success of iPAQ line was the only reason WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever has survived this long.

Now that HP is in financial trouble, with their new CEO hell-bent on cost cutting, the position is very different. If you want to see what this guy means about 'discipline', go and look at the financial statements of NCR for the last five years. What he will is to slash costs to try to get a short term lift in profits - he knows this will affect sales, but he hopes that the short term impact will be positive. But this becomes a vicious circle - some of the first reductions in costs will be to R&D and marketing, which will start to bite into sales in say 2-3 quarters time, then he will respond with further cost cutting, etc, etc. The lay-offs announced recently are just the start - there will be more in say 12-18 months time - you can bet your house on that one. NCR has gone through this same 'death spiral'.

I see some of you have regurgitated the same old stories about how M$ destroyed WordPerfect, Lotus, etc. (I don't disagree with what you say, by the way.)

However, there is an important difference here, which the Whiners are not prepared to admit.

M$ doesn't sell handheld computers; it realies completely on OEMs to do that. This is M$ 'achilles heal' in this market. Their fortunes are tied to the financial success of their licensees. If the largest licensee (HP) is struggling because of financial problems, that has a direct impact on the bottom line for the WinMob division. If the iPAQ sales decline (because HP has cannabalized it's R&D, for instance), this will mean more losses for the WinMob division. And there is NOTHING M$ can do to change that.

I'll give you an absurd example to demonstrate the point - let's say Congress makes a law tomorrow which makes it uneconomic for OEMs to sell desktop computers - so they shut down productions and sales of desktops - how many copies of XP will M$ sell in this situation? Of course, Congress would never do that - this just a example to demonstrate a point - the point is that if OEMs don't sell hardware (for whatever reason) M$ doesn't get any revenue from WinMob. Less revenue, means more losses for M$ on the WinMob debacle.

Why Facts Matter
ChiA @ 7/21/2005 6:40:56 PM # Q
Timothy said:
I am learning not to disagree with some of the folks here. ChiA, Surer, and VOR just like looking up facts too much:(

It's those facts and the ability to apply them which make the difference between people being able to travel in vehicles by air land or sea, treat illnesses, build comfortable shelters etc or still being stuck in caves eating raw meat because they can't even figure out how to make a fire!

By all means disagree, debate can make for progress but try to make sure your debate is based on fact and informed.
If you see a two litre container with one litre of milk in it, there will always be the age old debate of whether it's half full or half empty - we all see the same amount of milk but it's a matter of opinion, perspective and circumstance whether it's described as half full or half empty.

I think what I, Surer and TVoR find annoying is that the Palm Apologists look at an empty container and insist on telling us all that it's actually overflowing with milk.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

There's Nothing Silly About PDAs used by a Grocery Store
ChiA @ 7/21/2005 7:20:20 PM # Q
Foo Fighter said: PDAs show up in the silliest places. Two weeks ago I was shopping at my local grocery store

Maybe the phrase you're looking for is the most unexpected of places. That PDA is being used for stock control- making sure there's enough butter for their customers to buy but not too much that it money's lost by it's going out of date and becoming unsaleable.

I don't think many people appreciate the logistical feats achieved by the supermarkets: they spend money buying in fresh products which will become landfill if they're not shipped within two to three days to 500+ outlets, each with it's own level of demand. Gee, they're computer companies which can't manage that with far fewer outlets and non-perishable goods.

That PDA is being used as part of a system to tell the store, the company's distribution centres,its head office and even its suppliers all at the same time, how much butter is on hand and how quickly it's selling and even how much is being written off, both within the store and the company. That'll determine how much if any of that stock will be on that store's next delivery.

That PDA is being used to make the company more efficient, less wasteful and more profitable. It's being able to apply technology effectively and efficiently which has contributed to WalMart being a hugely profitable retailer - their money doesn't just fall out of the sky into their laps.

The question Palm need to ask is why Walmart went for Dell PDAs and not Palms. Assuming at least one per store (5000 outlets worldwide), that's at least 5000 Palms that could have been sold, probably more as large supermarkets tend to need several PDAs to be in use at the same time.

Oh and if you apologists think I'm making all of this up from the top of my head here's a quote from www.walmartstores.com :

Ironically, technology plays an important role in helping Wal-Mart stay customer focused. Wal- Mart invented the practice of sharing sales data via computer with major suppliers, such as Proctor & Gamble. Every time a box of Tide is rung up at the cash register, Wal-Mart's data warehouse takes note and knows when it is time to alert P&G to replenish a particular store. As a result, Wal-Mart stores rarely run out of stock of popular items.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/21/2005 8:15:43 PM # Q

svrontis, a bit more research please. The new Hp CEO specifically did not cut the R&D department. But of course you are right. Who knows what future cuts will be made.

However, I have said this many times, HP is not he be all or end all of WM handhelds. I have owned 4 PocketPC's over the years, and only one (my first) was a HP/Compaq PPC. They are only 30% of the WM market, and there are a pile of others with a similarly high profile (Dell and Asus to name two) and a pile of phone edition devices which are completely unbranded.

If HP sold their PC business tomorrow (which has been touted as a possibility) it does not mean the market for PC's will collapse, or that no one in America would be able to buy one. WM devices are exactly the same.

Surur

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/21/2005 8:36:31 PM # Q
> but you're not entitled to make up your own facts to fit an argument.

Yes. Please tell that to your marketing friends over at M$ - they have been doing just that for 5 or 6 years now. But the reality is that the WinMob losses continue despite all the PowerPoint slides showing upward-slopping projections trotted out year after year.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/21/2005 9:00:07 PM # Q
> svrontis, a bit more research please. The new Hp CEO specifically did not cut the R&D department. But of course you are right. Who knows what future cuts will be made.

On this particular point, I don't need to do any research. My better half is a senior manager at NCR (she was even based in Dayton for a while; but she escaped that mad-house). I don't believe I'm revealing any secrets in telling you that R&D was hammered by Mr Hurd (except for his pet data center project).

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/21/2005 10:19:12 PM # Q
So much delusional thinking, so little time. First of all, while the "What I would do if I were Palm CEO", makes for good cinema, it clearly shows what little business backgrounds people in the PDA community really have. Hiring enthusiasts to hang out of forums and cheerlead products and act as liaisons between community and company? Oh please, Palm would be wasting its payroll money on seven unnecessary positions.

Ummmm.... Kent - it was a joke. Did you notice that Surur is a member of the esteemed "Magnificent Seven"? The sad thing is that "Eggo" Kirvin appears to be hoping that Palm is going to hire him to Astroturf for them.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Foo Fighter @ 7/21/2005 10:29:41 PM # Q
>> "Ummmm.... Kent - it was a joke. "

That wasn't directed at you. I was referring to the original notion that Palm should hire PalmOS groupies to lurk on forums all day, acting as liaisons between community and company. Whose idea was that? Kirvin'? He should know better.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/21/2005 10:37:52 PM # Q

Does this mean I wont get a free LifeDrive any more :( I was so hoping to see if I could remove the HDD and use it in my Loox :) :)

Surur

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/21/2005 11:17:19 PM # Q
By all means disagree, debate can make for progress but try to make sure your debate is based on fact and informed.
If you see a two litre container with one litre of milk in it, there will always be the age old debate of whether it's half full or half empty - we all see the same amount of milk but it's a matter of opinion, perspective and circumstance whether it's described as half full or half empty.

I think what I, Surer and TVoR find annoying is that the Palm Apologists look at an empty container and insist on telling us all that it's actually overflowing with milk.

Well said. But what I find MOST annoying is the fact that Palm's greed and laziness is slowly killing off a platform that I've had a lot of fun using (and even depended on) since the release of the original Pilots. Mike Cane makes fun of me for having stockpiled so many CLIEs, but I did so because I truly believe I'll never see any high quality PalmOS PDAs released again. I just wish Sony had stayed around long enough to release an OLED-screened UX model, but the brilliant-but-flawed UX50, TH55 and VZ90 will keep me happy with PalmOS for years to come. Tablet and clamshell PDAs were so close to achieving their optimum form factor by 2004 that using NOS (New Old Stock) CLIEs from now on will be no problem for me, especially since I'll be able to keep using my familiar old software. Ultimately, it's the SOFTWARE that makes PalmOS such a great platform. At this point, all I want is for Samsung or Sony Ericsson to release a tiny, high quality, phone-centric Bluetooth phone running the Treo 600 OS. After that happens, PalmSource and Palm could blow up for all I care.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Gekko @ 7/21/2005 11:27:15 PM # Q

Foo - great story! I hate liars!

Lotus chief's ‘combat’ record savaged by WSJ
By John Lettice
Published Friday 30th April 1999 09:41 GMT

http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/04/30/lotus_chiefs_combat_record_savaged/



RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/21/2005 11:48:53 PM # Q
That wasn't directed at you. I was referring to the original notion that Palm should hire PalmOS groupies to lurk on forums all day, acting as liaisons between community and company. Whose idea was that? Kirvin'? He should know better.

Kirvin has been wishing for that for a while. Probably because he thinks that would be a great job for him to get. I quoted him in the first post of this thread. This guy's beyond ridiculous and Kirvin is rapidly drowning himself in the lake of B.S. that he's spewing out. Most of his posts have become nearly-incoherent stream-of-consciousness rants that immediately fall apart on on even cursory inspection.

I'm not sure if he's having personal problems or if the stress of posting to several sites has overwhelmed him, but Kirvin really needs to sit down, S T F U and stop spewing out crap like what he's been posting over the past several months. Up until this year, some people actually had respect for what he said. Not anymore...

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
mikecane @ 7/22/2005 8:17:16 AM # Q
>>>Up until this year, some people actually had respect for what he said.

At least he's had respect. You never had. Nor deserve any.

How are the Michigan kidz, boyo? How are those med stats coming along? Lab work got you down?

What PalmApologists can't Admit
ChiA @ 7/22/2005 1:15:29 PM # Q
svrontis said: I see some of you have regurgitated the same old stories about how M$ destroyed WordPerfect, Lotus, etc. (I don't disagree with what you say, by the way.)

However, there is an important difference here, which the Whiners are not prepared to admit.

M$ doesn't sell handheld computers; it realies completely on OEMs to do that. This is M$ 'achilles heal' in this market. Their fortunes are tied to the financial success of their licensees

You are wrong: there's no difference with respect to PalmSource vs. Microsoft because they both have the same business model - that of selling their operating systems to OEMs.
This is the important similarity that the Palm Apologists are not prepared to admit

Theoretically OEMs can obtain licences from both Microsoft and PalmSource but in practice OEMs are deciding between one or the other i.e. competition for which OS the OEM will use. Hell, one OEM which had a licence for both, Acer, was so keen to drop PalmOS that it was prepared to lose money going to court rather than continue being a PalmOS licensee. Thus, Microsoft is in direct competition with PalmSource and just as it destroyed Netscape, it's in a position to destroy PalmSource and thus Palm OS with it.

Now let's compare and contrast: Microsoft has 40 OEM licensees for its Windows Mobile OS, at least three of which: Acer, Dell and HP are volume producers. Even if HP as you suggest leaves the handheld market, that still leaves Acer and Dell. In a worse case scenerario, if all those OEMS shun WinMob tomorrow, Microsoft still has Windows XP, Windows Server, Office, .NET, XBox etc etc to carry on generating revenue for them.

Now compare with PalmSource: it has 12 OEM licensees, only one of which, PalmOne is a volume producer (yea yea LG has potential but in the same sense Kirvin has potential to be president of the US: potential counts for squat until it's brought to fruition). If all these OEMs shun PalmOS tomorrow (dare I say it but they've certainly shunned Cobalt until recently) then they've got... umm... umm... umm PalmLinux to rely on which by their own admission won't be ready for another year probably, hopefully, maybe...

Well if they can't sell Cobalt or PalmLinux then there's always, umm, umm, umm selling the Palm name for $30 million. Oh damn, they've done that already!

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
ChiA @ 7/22/2005 2:16:12 PM # Q
ChiA said In a worse case scenerario
that should read worst case scenario
RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/22/2005 2:46:41 PM # Q
Kirvin as the president of America....there's plenty of potential there. He is from Texas after all, and he has an aversion to facts...

I better up my life insurance...

Surur

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
twizza @ 7/22/2005 4:34:54 PM # Q
I guess this is what happens when one stays away from a PIC a day.

VOR:
Very nice analysis of the podcast. I didnt listen to but the first five min of it. Just didnt sound right...I got bored real quick. Make note, I dont listen to talk radio or podcasts at all; I took a listen because of the fervor at 1src.

Foo said that MS wins because PS defaulted on a great product. I agree, and to get out of this hole would take a really, really nice Mike Jordan like move. I dont think its in PS to do so. This would mean Palm needs that move, and they have not yet shown to move fast enough to do so.

Saw that list of people who should be palm insiders: I appreciate being on that list. Really, I do. But I personally dont think I carry that much weight around here. Also, though I like the idea JK said; it would only work if PS was in the position that MS was in in terms of building mometium, not losing it.

I dont mean to sound glum, but nothing that I have seen is convincing me that the PalmOS platform will get out of this rut. Yes, the Treo and other feature phones will do some work in terms of market perception. But in the handheld space, a tiny handheld space, its too hard to recover without doing something new, innovative, and different. Cobalt would have helped greatly if it were ready. PLinux is too far away to help. Its a shame, I really like the PalmOS. I personally will not use a WinMob device as I cannot stand resource hungry OSes (waiting for Macromedia/Adobe to move Flash to Linux so that I can move there). I do understand though, MS knows they dont have to do anything to kill the PalmOS. Being lax and zen has slowly killed itself.

Finally speaking: I look at my T5 and think...really hard; if this had Cobalt the PalmOS platform would be celebrating a rebirth right now, not a caning.

Sorry JK, it does sound like to the PIC crowd, and others, that you have lost a great deal of crediability. Its kind of a shame, because you are right in pulling for the PalmOS platform; if Palm or PS had people in leadership with your vision (and the energy to execute), they would not be in this position.

This is all my opinion. No hard data, no other swings; just an opinion.

mobileministrymagazine.blogspot.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
rcartwright @ 7/22/2005 7:09:53 PM # Q
To the usual suspects (VOR, Gekko, Suer, etc)


Ok, let me get this right.

First, there is a board on PIC that is titled "I hate Jeff" or words to that effect.

Second, buried in a thread on PalmOne going back to Palm we have a tangent basically bashing Jeff Kirvin, cross posts and the like.

Third, of the posts in this thread Mike Cane has the most rational, civil posts of the bunch.

And Jeff Kirvin is the stupid, crazy idiot. Right.

just keep thinking that. I am sure the the nice people will be by with your meds soon.


"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/22/2005 10:30:24 PM # Q
Third, of the posts in this thread Mike Cane has the most rational, civil posts of the bunch.

mikecane @ 7/19/2005 10:14:52 AM #

I'm not for hire, you pathetic stalking loser.

As for holding people to account, why don't you post under your real name?

And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

mikecane @ 7/20/2005 9:53:12 AM #

>>>Please explain that one, Little Man.

You know exactly what I mean.


mikecane @ 7/22/2005 8:17:16 AM #

>>>Up until this year, some people actually had respect for what he said.

At least he's had respect. You never had. Nor deserve any.

How are the Michigan kidz, boyo? How are those med stats coming along? Lab work got you down?
********************************************************************


In case you wanted proof both Cane and Cartwright suffer from a "chemical imbalance"...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
rcartwright @ 7/22/2005 10:54:44 PM # Q
VoR said:
(quoting rcartwright)
Third, of the posts in this thread Mike Cane has the most rational, civil posts of the bunch.

>mikecane @ 7/19/2005 10:14:52 AM #

>I'm not for hire, you pathetic stalking loser.

Sorry, thought he was talking about you. Actually, Mike uses the term "stalker" like most yankees say "Youse guys". Does not really register with me.

>As for holding people to account, why don't you post under >your real name?

Another rational statement bt Mr. Cane.

>And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

Sounds like a personal problem to me. Please don't go in to it, the statute of limitations might not have run yet.

mikecane @ 7/20/2005 9:53:12 AM #

>>>Please explain that one, Little Man.

You know exactly what I mean.


mikecane @ 7/22/2005 8:17:16 AM #

>>>Up until this year, some people actually had respect for what he said.

At least he's had respect. You never had. Nor deserve any.

How are the Michigan kidz, boyo? How are those med stats coming along? Lab work got you down?

Well this just seems like your normal thing of repeating things a lot and trying to con people inot thinking you are worth listening to.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
mikecane @ 7/23/2005 11:04:41 AM # Q
Hey cartright, don't bring a knife to a gunfight, you twot. And stay out of the line of fire when you're not the intended target, assbag.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/23/2005 11:33:27 AM # Q
I'm not for hire, you [SNIP].

As for holding people to account, why don't you post under your real name?

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

I think my posts under "The Voice of Reason" have shown that I know what I'm talking about, I'm brutally honest, and have little patience with those who prefer to spread lies, SPIN, FUD and BS. Most of the things I say have either already been or are now being proven to be true, and I think my posts here can easily stand for themselves. If I tell you who The Voice of Reason really is (actually several people spread among a few countries are posting under this name, in case you didn't realize ;-O) I don't think it would alter the validity of TVoR's posts, now would it?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to... you know... kill you.

THINK about it, Caney.

And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

?
Please explain that one, Little Man.

TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
mikecane @ 7/23/2005 1:51:57 PM # Q
It's no surprise this guy so is analphilic.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
mikecane @ 7/23/2005 3:13:37 PM # Q
Hey, you homophobic scumboy: Get lost.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/23/2005 5:06:17 PM # Q
As I said before, Caney, I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own dingy, filthy, pizza box-strewn apartment in New York. As long as you're doing it with ADULT males, no one cares.

And sorry, Bubba - I'm not homophobic. Here in The City people don't even look twice at LGBTs. You might want to think about moving down here if you don't feel comfortable showing your true colors in New York.

Anyway, this is waaaaay off topic, so I won't be responding to anything else you post about your orientation. Let it go, Caney. We accept you for who you are. Really.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/23/2005 7:51:12 PM # Q
> Now let's compare and contrast: Microsoft has 40 OEM licensees for its Windows Mobile OS, at least three of which: Acer, Dell and HP are volume producers. Even if HP as you suggest leaves the handheld market, that still leaves Acer and Dell. In a worse case scenerario, if all those OEMS shun WinMob tomorrow, Microsoft still has Windows XP, Windows Server, Office, .NET, XBox etc etc to carry on generating revenue for them.

Yeh, right. 3 real licensees and 37 also-rans who just make up the numbers.

Of the three real licensees you refer to (a) one (HP) is suffering financial problems and the speculation is that they will cut back on their commitment to this line; (b) one (Dell) which keeps promising to make a big impact in the market, but which has only released two lacktustre models in the last three years (which are being heavily discounted in the market in order to move inventories); (c) as for the last (Acer) I can't think of the last model they introduced.

Is this what you are betting the farm on?

Grasshopper, the lesson from all this is that without profitable licensees, WinMob will NEVER make any money on WinMob.

Your comparison with PalmSource is valid in a way. PalmSource had product which they claimed was the apotheosis of handheld technology (ie, Cobalt) - no one wanted to buy it - goodbye PalmSource. The M$ marketing guys keep telling us that someday WinCE/PPC/WinMob (or whatever it will be called after the next restructure) will be the apotheosis of handheld technology - if there are no OEMs who want to buy it (because they can't make money out of handheld devices) - goodbye WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
twrock @ 7/23/2005 9:46:57 PM # Q
rcartwright: First, there is a board on PIC that is titled "I hate Jeff" or words to that effect.

There is? I guess I missed that one. Sounds childish, but I guess I should withold judgement until I've looked at it. Can you link it?

Re: And Jeff Kirvin is the stupid, crazy idiot. Right.

Some may think so. Personally I've concluded he's a person with an ego the size of Texas, who isn't doing his research before making bold assertions about the state of the industry and the companies in it. Since he typically lavishes praise on Palm, often undeserved, and ignores and minimizes arguments and evidence to the contrary, I think it is fair to conclude that he is a "Palm apologist" and has gone way too far with it. But feel free to conclude otherwise.

As far as people bashing him here on PIC, I do think that some of the comments that are clearly intended as personal attacks are likely nothing more than an attempt to boost the ego of the one who posted them. On the other hand, he came to PIC a few times lately, didn't get the reception he wanted, went "home" and "editorialized" about how terrible things are here. So if someone here returns the favor about something he wrote on 1src or his own blog, I guess that's fair game. He is making himself into a "public figure", and I hope he knows that means he's going to have to take it.

Back when my daughter was three and we were at a highway rest stop, she saw a postcard with a wolf picture on it and asked me to buy it for her. She knew that her dad liked wolves and so she liked them too. (If you've had a three year old, you will understand.) But what she didn't know was that the caption under the picture read: "You can't run with the big dogs if you pee like a puppy."

I'm not trying to run with the big dogs, but I think someone else is. The muddy paw prints on his back might be a good indication it's time to back off. Otherwise, he can stand his ground and fight.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
E Ben G @ 7/23/2005 10:20:17 PM # Q
"(b) one (Dell) which keeps promising to make a big impact in the market, but which has only released two lacktustre models in the last three years (which are being heavily discounted in the market in order to move inventories)"

Not that I really care on way or the other, but calling the x50v lackluster is a wee bit silly. Lackluster compared to what? The T5? The LifeDrive?

Give me a break.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
twrock @ 7/23/2005 10:29:23 PM # Q
...calling the x50v lackluster is a wee bit silly.

Agreed. I drool over the image of an x50v with POS.

(Ok, honestly, I think it's as ugly as they come; I'm talking about the specs/features.)

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
rcartwright @ 7/24/2005 12:40:17 AM # Q
twrock,

The link to the "I hate you Jeff" thread on PIC:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28173&sid=ce1be56924000a7322d93f7f9a3f0c3a

Regarding the rest of your post, the main problem I have with VoR and his ilk is not their arguements as such. If you are willing to sift through the childish personal attacks VoR, Gekko and Mike Cane make good points. In fact, Mike Cane is probably one of the best Internet researchers I have seen. VoR and Gekko are pretty good as well. However, the problem is that they are like the street preachers I used to see growing up. The message is obscured by the ranting and screaming to the point one chooses to go across the street to avoid them.

While I don't have a problem with "handles" per se, it bothers me quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname. This is especally true when people go out of their way to make personal attacks by researching the person they are trying to smear. The pity is the personal attack is usually for no other reason than they disagree with your position. I am not real proud that I tend to treat VoR like he treats other people but I do because I have serious questions about his cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of his expertise is, since he claims to be so many things. As for Mike Cane, I know enough about his background to make allowances. (I predit a pot shot from Cane over that comment)

I obviously do not agree with Jeff Kirvin's view on PIC since I am here. At the same time, I respect his position. After all, a lot of my practice involves crminals, juvenile justice and disability cases so I am used to dealing with thugs, delinquents, and the mentally ill.



"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
rcartwright @ 7/24/2005 1:07:53 AM # Q
twrock,

One thing I would point out about the "big dogs" comment. No one has asked VoR, Gekko, Suer or Mike Cane to do a weekly editorial or podcast. Oddly enough Kirvin has. In fact Kirvin may have come up with the idea of the Palm centric podcast. I also think that there is a difference between running with the dogs and dealing with a rabid, foaming at the mouth dog.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/24/2005 3:36:42 AM # Q
> Not that I really care on way or the other, but calling the x50v lackluster is a wee bit silly. Lackluster compared to what? The T5? The LifeDrive?

Ok, leave aside the spec sheet and try actually using a x50v for more than about two hours. That's all it generally takes for the novelty to wear off. To run that screen it needs a fast processor, which it sure has - but it gets in the way of any processor intensive apps, resulting in mediocre performance. Let's not even go into the battery life problems. Anyway, you obviously are not going to believe it unless you try it yourself - you should be able to pick one up cheap on eBay.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
twrock @ 7/24/2005 6:24:03 AM # Q
Thanks for the link. I had a look at the thread. Even JK himself added to it (looking for trouble?). And if legodude522 is to be believed, JK thought the whole thing very funny. Twizza tried to add some level of intelligence to it and a few of the other posts had a little something worth considering. But I basically found it to be a bore. Oh, I must admit that I laughed outloud at frenchie's CEO/Jeff dialogue. I guess I didn't miss anything by not noticing it before.

No one has asked VoR, Gekko, Suer or Mike Cane to do a weekly editorial or podcast. Oddly enough Kirvin has.
Sorry, I can't figure out what you meant there. Kirvin has been asked? Kirvin has gone ahead and done it? I'm not sure which you mean.

In fact Kirvin may have come up with the idea of the Palm centric podcast.
I'll give him credit for that if it is due. But try this on for size. I have this incredible idea for a piece of science fiction. I really think it would be a great book. But I know I can't write anything worth reading. So I went to my brother-in-law who has written a few things (not yet published) and told him the idea. I'd feel really good if he ever took the idea and went with it and got published. The difference is that I know better than to try to do something just because I had the idea for it. Does this fit for Jeff? You decide.

I also think that there is a difference between running with the dogs and dealing with a rabid, foaming at the mouth dog.
I hear you. Point taken.
I don't think it one-sided though. Jeff has dished it out as well. Maybe he won't go as far as some others (commendable), but if you dish it, you'd better be willing to take it as well. Remember when he tried to take credit for running off TVOR and quieting Gecko? That was just begging for it.

After all, a lot of my practice involves crminals, juvenile justice and disability cases so I am used to dealing with thugs, delinquents, and the mentally ill.
Sound like my former line of work as well. (I'll leave the reader to conclude to whom you are referring.) Maybe that's why I keep hanging out here; it doesn't seem all that abnormal to me!



I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

The REAL Difference between PalmSource & Microsoft
ChiA @ 7/24/2005 6:47:10 AM # Q
svrontis said: Yeh, right. 3 real licensees and 37 also-rans who just make up the numbers.
I paid a visit to www.expansys.com and they have current PocketPCs from Dell, HP, i-Mate, E-Ten, Garmin, Mio technology, Asus and Qtek on sale and in stock. In addition to this they had older Pocket PCs from Casio, Fujitsu Siemens and also units available on request from Panasonic, Display Solutions and TDS Recon. I'll add to this the OEM units branded by the global cellular carriers Orange, T-Mobile and O2.

In contrast the expansys.com had current Palms from Palm (PalmOne), Garmin and AlphaSmart only; with the GroupSense mobile status being described as "pre-release". They had older Palms from Sony and PalmOne.

I chose expansys.com because they're a very comprehensive online retailer-I've bought many a Palm product from them.

If there's anyone who has licensees which are there to make up the numbers it's PalmSource.

Is this what you are betting the farm on?
At least 3 (as you put it)real WinMob licensees versus 1 real PalmOS licensee, i.e. 3 chances versus one chance, never mind what I bet, it's evident more OEMs are placing their bets with Microsoft: 40 versus 12.
It disappoints me personally as I prefer PalmOS but I seem to be in the minority.

Grasshopper, the lesson from all this is that without profitable licensees, WinMob will NEVER make any money on WinMob.

Your comparison with PalmSource is valid in a way. PalmSource had product which they claimed was the apotheosis of handheld technology (ie, Cobalt) - no one wanted to buy it - goodbye PalmSource. The M$ marketing guys keep telling us that someday WinCE/PPC/WinMob (or whatever it will be called after the next restructure) will be the apotheosis of handheld technology - if there are no OEMs who want to buy it (because they can't make money out of handheld devices) - goodbye WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever.

Not "valid in a way", they're totally valid: PalmSource and Microsoft are competing for the same business using the same business model. As for marketing people, they're paid to promote their clients' products in the best way possible. If their clients tell them that their software is the apotheosis of handheld technology then they'll promote it as such.

The difference between Microsoft and PalmSource is that unlike PalmSource, if WinMob fails Microsoft doesn't fail with it. Microsoft can resurrect WinMob again "when the time is right" - in the same way Apple resurrected Newton's handwriting technology within MacOS X. Windows 1 and Windows 2 were dismal failures; Microsoft learnt from its mistakes to create Windows 3 and the rest is history.

I'm sure that PalmSource's ill health as a company is of the utmost concern to Palm and no doubt they've been debates as to whether they should rescue PalmOS and/or PalmSource should the need arise or switch to an alternative mobile OS.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/24/2005 10:01:46 AM # Q

Again svrontis, do you believe the things you say, or are you just blinded by loyalty. Mio may not be in America, but they are making loads of money selling navigation PPC's to Europeans. Garmin, who is a major POS licensee, is also selling WM handhelds. Its simple logic to say that if small PalmOS licensees could profit, so could small WM licensees, especially as the WM market is growing.

Surur

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/24/2005 1:57:13 PM # Q
Yeh, right. 3 real licensees and 37 also-rans who just make up the numbers.

Of the three real licensees you refer to (a) one (HP) is suffering financial problems and the speculation is that they will cut back on their commitment to this line; (b) one (Dell) which keeps promising to make a big impact in the market, but which has only released two lacktustre models in the last three years (which are being heavily discounted in the market in order to move inventories); (c) as for the last (Acer) I can't think of the last model they introduced.

Is this what you are betting the farm on?

Grasshopper, the lesson from all this is that without profitable licensees, WinMob will NEVER make any money on WinMob.

Your comparison with PalmSource is valid in a way. PalmSource had product which they claimed was the apotheosis of handheld technology (ie, Cobalt) - no one wanted to buy it - goodbye PalmSource. The M$ marketing guys keep telling us that someday WinCE/PPC/WinMob (or whatever it will be called after the next restructure) will be the apotheosis of handheld technology - if there are no OEMs who want to buy it (because they can't make money out of handheld devices) - goodbye WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever.

Do you REALLY believe the things you say? Even if you ignore the sheer numbers (licensees, sales volume, development staff, available resources), look at the momentum. Palm is in a tailspin while Windows mobile seems to be slowly improving in most measurable ways year after year. If you agree with conventional thinking that Windows Mobile is considered by Microsoft to be an important product/market (makes sense if you look at Microsoft's overall strategy) it seems unlikely that they would suddenly give up when they're so close to Netscaping their main competition. Worst case scenario (the unlikely loss of ALL major hardware manufacturers) would involve Microsoft simply lowering licensing fees to undercut its competition. Or just giving away Windows Mobile (as they did with Internet Explorer) to ensure Windows Mobile becomes the de facto standard. Of course they WON'T give the OS away - they won't need to and also are afraid of yet another bogus lawsuit.

It's time people stopped letting their "hatred" of Microsoft (reminds me of how everyone "hates" the New York Yankees and other teams that dominate markets by buying their way to supremacy...) cloud the real issues.

The real question is which OS is best suited to handle the needs of consumers today and in the near future. Without a proper implementation of "real" multitasking, Palm is at a huge disadvantage now that wirelessly connected PDAs are becoming more important than non-connected PDAs.

Microsoft's user interface deficiencies can be ameliorated somewhat with utilities like Wisbar, etc. On the other hand, no utility in the world can add missing core functionality to PalmOS 5. So it seems obvious that with Palm's hardware and OS now being no longer competitive, the platform's decline will escalate. Trying to "hold on tight" for two more years in a PalmOS 5 (Garnet) lifeboat awaiting rescue by a ship (HMS PalmLinux) that hasn't even been built yet seems like a strategy doomed to fail. While I've argued elsewhere that PalmOS 5 might remain serviceable for years to come, this would only be possible by performing a clean sheet re-write that fixes all of the buggy code and exposes EVERYTHING to developers. I don't think Palm has the engineering resources/skill or time to do this. Do you?


TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/24/2005 3:16:39 PM # Q
Some may think so. Personally I've concluded he's a person with an ego the size of Texas, who isn't doing his research before making bold assertions about the state of the industry and the companies in it. Since he typically lavishes praise on Palm, often undeserved, and ignores and minimizes arguments and evidence to the contrary, I think it is fair to conclude that he is a "Palm apologist" and has gone way too far with it. But feel free to conclude otherwise.

As far as people bashing him here on PIC, I do think that some of the comments that are clearly intended as personal attacks are likely nothing more than an attempt to boost the ego of the one who posted them. On the other hand, he came to PIC a few times lately, didn't get the reception he wanted, went "home" and "editorialized" about how terrible things are here. So if someone here returns the favor about something he wrote on 1src or his own blog, I guess that's fair game. He is making himself into a "public figure", and I hope he knows that means he's going to have to take it.

Back when my daughter was three and we were at a highway rest stop, she saw a postcard with a wolf picture on it and asked me to buy it for her. She knew that her dad liked wolves and so she liked them too. (If you've had a three year old, you will understand.) But what she didn't know was that the caption under the picture read: "You can't run with the big dogs if you pee like a puppy."

I'm not trying to run with the big dogs, but I think someone else is. The muddy paw prints on his back might be a good indication it's time to back off. Otherwise, he can stand his ground and fight.

I don't think Kirvin has a big ego. He simply doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. This is fairly obvious to anyone with even limited knowledge of PalmOS + the PDA industry. His positions tend to be rather weak (often ludicrous) and this is compounded by the fact that he has essentially no skills as a debater. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a real debate in which Kirvin didn't have his a$$ kicked. Thoroughly. This isn't a "personal attack", it's a fact. The recent smackdown courtesy of Surur - in which essentially EVERYTHING Kirvin said was shown to be B.S. - is the perfect example. Kirvin goes as far as to threaten Surur because Surur didn't post a link properly! Pathetic. Surur may be a (paid?) PPC troll, but if you disagree with what he says a good debater will at least present WHY they feel he's wrong (or why PalmOS is still a better choice for many of us compared to PPC). Kirvin typically gets flustered when others destroy his arguments and then he runs back (tail between his legs) to lick his wounds among his circle jerk toadies at his blog site. His repeated - obnoxious - sucker punches thrown at Ryan, Palminfocenter and the readers here have shown everyone Kirvin has no class whatsoever.

I've never listened to any of his blogcasts because the lack of insight Kirvin displays in his post shows that he has no business acting as a pundit/"expert". I don't claim to be an expert about PalmOS either, but at least the things I say are true. My track record here at PIC has shown that there aren't too many times I've been shown to be wrong. (Helloooooooooo Michael Mace and Dianne Hackborn!) Kirvin's endless mouthing off about things he knows nothing about is not particularly useful (or even interesting). He really needs to S T F U and leave the commentary to people like David Pogue and Larry Garfield who actually know what they're talking about.

Sorry, but I tell it like it is.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/24/2005 4:11:06 PM # Q
While I don't have a problem with "handles" per se, it bothers me quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname. This is especally true when people go out of their way to make personal attacks by researching the person they are trying to smear. The pity is the personal attack is usually for no other reason than they disagree with your position. I am not real proud that I tend to treat VoR like he treats other people but I do because I have serious questions about his cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of his expertise is, since he claims to be so many things. As for Mike Cane, I know enough about his background to make allowances. (I predit a pot shot from Cane over that comment)

What are you - like 12 years old? It "bothers [you] quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname"? Bwahahaha!

And you "have serious questions about [my] cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of [my] expertise is, since [I] claim[s] to be so many things"? Bwahahaha!

Bubba, grow up. This is the Internet. The message is what matters - not the person writing it. My posts stand on their own. Whether I'm the CEO of Palm/PalmSource, am an Palm/PalmSource employee, have contacts within Palm/PalmSource, am a developer, work for Microsoft or am just an end user, you can decide for yourself whether or not what I say is true. Or get your mommy to decide. Bwahahaha!




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/24/2005 4:30:11 PM # Q
I also think that there is a difference between running with the dogs and dealing with a rabid, foaming at the mouth dog.

Kirvin posting here is like a poodle trying to run with the big bad wolves. And I think your idol most have got splashed with some of that rabid foam, 'cause it's sounding more and more like he's not quite "right in the head" these days. Do you remember what they had to do to "Old Yeller"?


His desperation to get a job at Palm is also quite sad. Is he unemployed these days?

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
rcartwright @ 7/24/2005 5:22:32 PM # Q
VoR,

First, I was not talking to you, but since this is a public thread I will respond.

I would compare and contrast the civil exchange that twrock and I had to the manner of your response.

To address your specific responses:

rcartwright said:
>While I don't have a problem with "handles" per se, it bothers me quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname. This is especally true when people go out of their way to make personal attacks by researching the person they are trying to smear. The pity is the personal attack is usually for no other reason than they disagree with your position. I am not real proud that I tend to treat VoR like he treats other people but I do because I have serious questions about his cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of his expertise is, since he claims to be so many things. As for Mike Cane, I know enough about his background to make allowances. (I predit a pot shot from Cane over that comment)

VoR butts in:
>What are you - like 12 years old? It "bothers [you] quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname"? Bwahahaha!<

I am cut to the quick by your insightful and intellectual response. (sarcasm intended) No, actually I am 45 with two advanced degrees.

VoR continues:
>And you "have serious questions about [my] cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of [my] expertise is, since [I] claim[s] to be so many things"? Bwahahaha!

VoR, I just respond to what you put out there. You have claimed expertise/inside information about so many things, I have to question your credibility about everything. That's part of the hiding your real identity thing. You may have a hidden agenda. Heck, you might be Bill Gates .
...and VoR comtinues with more of the same:

>Bubba, grow up.< Never!

>This is the Internet.< Really? I thought it was Kansas, since there are so many narrow minded folks here.

> The message is what matters - not the person writing it. My posts stand on their own. Whether I'm the CEO of Palm/PalmSource, am an Palm/PalmSource employee, have contacts within Palm/PalmSource, am a developer, work for Microsoft or am just an end user, you can decide for yourself whether or not what I say is true.< This would be a valid point, but while you back up some of your assertions with facts, far too often they are open to differenet takes or like in the Surer v. Kirvin debate on another site the bottom line supports the argument but when you break out the data its another matter. Also, you are far too fond of "inside information" that absent knowing if you have any connection to the industry its hard to tell if you are BSing or not.

and the cherry on top for VoR:

> Or get your mommy to decide. Bwahahaha!<

Wish I could chump, but seeing as she died a few months ago a little hard to do. Another example of how to lose the respect of your audience.



"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
sr4 @ 7/24/2005 6:36:27 PM # Q
This would be a valid point, but while you back up some of your assertions with facts, far too often they are open to differenet takes or like in the Surur v. Kirvin debate on another site the bottom line supports the argument but when you break out the data its another matter.

What alternate explanations? These "alternate explanations" have to be credible to a disinterested observer, not just a "true believer".

Surur


RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
twrock @ 7/24/2005 7:14:26 PM # Q
I don't think Kirvin has a big ego.
I don't suspect you do.

He simply doesn't have a clue what he's talking about
I think he has just barely enough of a clue to get himself in way over his head. I would compare it to me attempting the same. But I don't.

I've never listened to any of his blogcasts because the lack of insight Kirvin displays in his post shows that he has no business acting as a pundit/"expert".
If you haven't yet, don't bother. It'd only give you more ammunition.

My track record here at PIC has shown that there aren't too many times I've been shown to be wrong.
Two responses from me. First, I agree when it comes to issues concerning the Palm platform. There are of course other things that are discussed. It may also be that the people capable of proving you wrong simply havent'/won't bother/are not allowed to do so. Second, there are still a number of "outstanding" issues/topics about which we have yet to see the actual conclusion. I'll withhold judgement until it all plays out and I have a more complete set of data. It often isn't until much after the fact that the truth is revealed.

...leave the commentary to people like David Pogue and Larry Garfield who actually know what they're talking about.
We agree about Larry Garfield. But Pogue? He lost credibility with me when he ran that little piece on the LD taking six seconds to do "anything" and hasn't been willing to admit he's wrong (or did I miss that somewhere?).

Sorry, but I tell it like it is.
No way you are sorry! LOL Yes, you and Mr. Cronkite tell it like it is. (Where was that question about ego...?)

Enjoy everyone. I'm off for a ten day road trip. I'll look forward to seeing what happened in the nut house when I get back.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

Will Palm ultimately sue Microsoft?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/25/2005 10:37:49 AM # Q
What alternate explanations? These "alternate explanations" have to be credible to a disinterested observer, not just a "true believer".

Surur

Surur, how dare you try to debate using facts and common sense! There's currently as much denial going on in the PalmOS world as you'd expect to see in a cult group like the Branch Davidians, Moonies, etc.

Ultimately the PDA war is now looking like it will end up like the browser war did. No doubt Palm will sue Microsoft for a few hundred million $. After all the games with the bogus Palm "split", the loan writeoffs, the buying of JL Gassée's useless company Be, the selling of the Palm name, etc, I wonder if a lawsuit claiming anticompetitive practices isn't Palm's real exit strategy. They could potentially make more from a lawsuit than they did in profits over the past 4 YEARS.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
AdamaDBrown @ 7/25/2005 12:34:13 PM # Q
All right, I've been trying to stay out of this, but there are a couple of things that need correcting.

svrontis said:

Yeh, right. 3 real licensees and 37 also-rans who just make up the numbers.

While HP and Dell are the major producers in the US market, it's inaccurate to say that there are only 3 "real" licensees. Other noteworthy licensees include Samsung, Asus, HTC, Garmin, and Acer, all of whom have hardware available in the US. That's not counting other international licensees such as Fujitsu, Mitac/Mio, LG, Toshiba, E-TEN, or Medion, who don't neccessarily participate in the US market.

"Of the three real licensees you refer to (a) one (HP) is suffering financial problems and the speculation is that they will cut back on their commitment to this line;

I watch pretty much all the handheld news sites, as well as mainstream news and stocks. You are the only person who is speculating this.

(b) one (Dell) which keeps promising to make a big impact in the market, but which has only released two lacktustre models in the last three years

Actually, they've released eleven models in the last 3 years, which is a big difference, and the Axims have consistently been among the most powerful and capable PocketPCs available, despite their low price.

As for your commentary on the X50v, I can only say that you're wrong. I've used an X50v extensively, and the small performance tradeoffs are minor compared to the features.

which are being heavily discounted in the market in order to move inventories);

This is grossly inaccurate. Dell sells units at these prices because it drives sales, and makes them money. For several months earlier this year, the X50v was actually unavailable in Europe because it was taking all the available production capacity to feed demand in the US and Canada.

"c) as for the last (Acer) I can't think of the last model they introduced."

The last models Acer introduced were the N50, a dual slot, dual wireless unit, and the N35 with integrated GPS.

And if you knew as much about the PocketPC market as you claim to, you would know that Acer isn't in the same category as Dell and HP in the US market.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
twizza @ 7/25/2005 12:35:20 PM # Q
Not that I dont agree VOR, but dang was that plain and [hopefully not] true.

mobileministrymagazine.blogspot.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
Foo Fighter @ 7/25/2005 1:49:30 PM # Q
HP isn't pulling out of the mobile space when the are currently number two and growing. Most important, they are profitable (at least that's what the data shows). Unless Todd Bradley is secretly still serving Palm, I don't see him pulling a Khrushchev ("We will bury you from within").

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Lawsuits=Palm's new cash cow?
hkklife @ 7/25/2005 3:24:30 PM # Q
Voice, your proposed "strategy" goes hand in hand with the final few years of Atari---a history lesson I've offered up here before with startling similarities to Palm's present woes. Atari managed to squeeze ~90 mil. $USD out of Sega in 94/95 for patent infringement. It was enough to keep them going for a few more years while they unloaded unsold inventory at firesale prices and eventually "merged" with a no-name HD manufacturer (JTS) who soon went under.

Maybe we really WILL soon see Palm-badged hardware fading from the scene and its core apps/UI sold as an add-ons (Bob? Geos?) for PPC & Linux devices?

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
svrontis @ 7/25/2005 9:13:26 PM # Q
> I watch pretty much all the handheld news sites, as well as mainstream news and stocks. You are the only person who is speculating this.

You're right. It's MY speculation only - and everyone here at PIC will tell you that I'm always wrong.

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/25/2005 10:05:31 PM # Q
RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
twizza @ 7/25/2005 12:35:20 PM #

Not that I dont agree VOR, but dang was that plain and [hopefully not] true.

mobileministrymagazine.blogspot.com
antoinerjwright.com


Lawsuits=Palm's new cash cow?
hkklife @ 7/25/2005 3:24:30 PM #

Voice, your proposed "strategy" goes hand in hand with the final few years of Atari---a history lesson I've offered up here before with startling similarities to Palm's present woes. Atari managed to squeeze ~90 mil. $USD out of Sega in 94/95 for patent infringement. It was enough to keep them going for a few more years while they unloaded unsold inventory at firesale prices and eventually "merged" with a no-name HD manufacturer (JTS) who soon went under.

Maybe we really WILL soon see Palm-badged hardware fading from the scene and its core apps/UI sold as an add-ons (Bob? Geos?) for PPC & Linux devices?

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see it play out like that. If one accepts that PalmSource is dead and that Palm will not be able to compete (pricewise + featurewise) with the likes of HP, Nokia, Dell, etc, the Netscaping of Palm seems inevitable. If Palm was barely able to eke out a couple million in profit over the past 2 years (the time when the Treo 600/650 gave Palm what should have been an "unfair advantage" over the competition), guess what happens once competitors get around to copying - and perfecting - the Treo 600/650 design? Things are gonna get ugly for Palm. But a $500 million settlement from Microsoft sure would be a nice way to milk a stagnant platform, wouldn't it?

The irony is that PalmSource's CEO, Pépé Gassée, pulled the EXACT same scam by suing Microsoft claiming that the dominance of Windows prevented Be from getting a foot in the door of the desktop OS world. Since everyone that sues Big Bad Microsoft these days gets a piece of the pie, Gassée was given around $10 million for his troubles. Think about it: companies are now being PAID for the market judging them to be an inferior choice. If you can't compete, simply SUE the market leader. Insane. Of course, Pépé probably never mentioned that minor detail about how he once tried to screw Apple for a couple hundred MILLION when he thought they were desperate for BeOS...


Of course this is just me wondering aloud. We'll know soon enough if Palm is planning to enter the Microsoft Lawsuit Lottery.


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This Palm Apologist nonsense is getting out of control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/25/2005 10:37:53 PM # Q
FUD-Meister: "...and the speculation is that [HP] will cut back on their commitment to this line;"

>>>FUD-Buster: "I watch pretty much all the handheld news sites, as well as mainstream news and stocks. You are the only person who is speculating this."

FUD-Meiester: "You're right. It's MY speculation only..."


Bwahahaha!



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Reply to this comment

EXPOSÉ: Why Cobalt (PalmOS 6) died a horrible death.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/23/2005 3:11:33 PM # Q
I spoke again to a contact at Palm about writing the Cobalt exposé, but they still refuse to pull the trigger. At this point, most Palminfocenter regulars can probably figure out part of the story, but it's actually more complicated (and more pathetic) that it appears on the surface.

I don't know if Ryan has all the details yet or (more likely) is under a gag order, but I hope someone will have the guts to finally write an in-depth article about what happened with Cobalt and PalmLinux. Users deserve to know the truth. I expect an anonymous "leak" might occur later, though, coincidentally timed to drive PalmSource's stock price down to penny stock levels. Hmmmm....

An alternativie to a self-serving bogus "leak" would be a Really Bad Person posting a Pay-Per-Listen™ blogcast of a conversation between a few inebriated PalmSource engineers (Hellooooo DK!) recorded with a tiny MP3 player. But that would be mean, wouldn't it?

When it's all over in a couple years, the Palm story will make a fascinating story, especially if it is contrasted with Apple's tragic decline (which also featured several of the characters who destroyed Palm).

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

An interesting footnote...another one down the tubes
hkklife @ 7/24/2005 9:51:12 PM # Q
http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000743051633
(it's not happened YET but I've assumed this was in the works for the better part of the past year)

A shame, really, as Majesco has some nice IP and licensed titles tied up. I assume they'll quickly be auctioned off to the highest bidder ala Interplay, Atari etc. Anyone remember the days when Majesco was a producer of licensed Sega hardware instead of a software publisher?

At least Yankowski never had the glorious pleasure to be sued by Palm's shareholders back in '01!
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=10233

Archived background info:
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-275604.html?legacy=cnet

(Ironic tidbit for this Sunday evening--look at the final sentence of the above story for Yank's '01 salary--SPOOKY!!)

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Why? So they could stamp "PALM" on any-OS PDA

SeldomVisitor @ 7/26/2005 10:03:00 PM # Q
And, boy, did someone find a uSoft-related gem on uSoft's site:

-- http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=1600640725&tid=palm&sid=1600640725&mid=210644

Got stock in PSRC?

SELL!

Giggle.

PalmSource will drop over 1/3 in value this quarter
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/27/2005 2:40:06 AM # Q
The wheels are now in motion. I have posted elsewhere WHY PalmSource stock will plummet. The next two months will be a WILD ride. By the time PalmSource announces its disastrous current quarter in two months, stock will be well below $5.

The bloodletting starts with a Windows Mobile "Palm". Then the (TBA) poor earnings and pessimistic prediction for later this year. And the coup de grace: PalmLinux pushed back to 2007.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

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