Comments on: palmOne Back to Palm Inc

Decisions, decisions!

But it other news, the next handheld to be released will once again be graced with the words, "PalmPilot" !

he he he

I've lived in Tennessee all my life, you can't tell me anything about the Big Orange that I don't already know. I was in Knoxville Tuesday.

That said, there are 49 other states in the union as well as Canada, Great Britain, and even Europe that don't bleed Tennessee Orange. Go figure. I think the previous "palm" logo had it right.

There was nothing wrong with the old blue palm logo - in fact most us would recognize it instantly. You could argue the orange logo is fresh and more up to date and reflects the new Palm. However these are false reasons to change. The brand should never change - make the brand mean fresh and contemporary through the products, the advertising and the promotions - not the brand.

The pity of it is they will waste hundreds of thousands of dollars on a rebrand rather than spend that on product development and actually delvering the next product.

Oh well - I like orange - my favourite colour - lets hope they stick with it now forever.

I wonder where I can get replacement badges to stoick on my old Palms, not to mention cover up that horrid palmOne logo on my Treo?

dave the rave

Dear Palm, Help I'm trapped in front of a box of wires and silicon. Please give me back my life.

At least it isn't spilling over into Apple's style of fashion

Ummm, yeah Duckworth... Coca-Cola has needed to change their logo around every year or two also.. Anyone else here remember that snappy "coke" logo of 1995? Man, it was sooooo non-digital. I love the 2005 Coke logo, I'd probably not even RECOGNIZE a Coke product from 15 years ago.

This "brand identity" stuff is so very important, thank gawd Palm recognized that it wasn't the devices that were buggy, their whole problem was that the logo wasn't the right shade and shape of orange...

Coke is a classic example of why you DON'T screw around with a solid brand. PERHAPS there are reasons other than the obvious to take control over the Palm name. Perhaps. But to flippantly and radically redesign your corporate logo nearly every other year just reeks of foolish trendiness and poor asset management.

OK Palm, you've spent your $30-40 Million, got your name and silly orange spot logo. Now get back to building handhelds.

... like giving PalmSource that $30m they needed to survive?

Shhhhhhh!


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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Why do I have the feeling that you have already printed the picture above and pasted it on a dart board?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

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Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

You can pray to your god that MSFT pack up their tent in this space, but I can assure you that they will not. This is a war of attrition. The trend is clear, Palm is screwed. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

There is a huge amount of denial in the POS community. When you try and make things as clear as possible (e.g. POS shipped 1.8 million units in q1 2002, and 1.1 million in q1 2005) you never get a straight answer from them.

Like svrontis, they all just hope that WM goes away. This is also Kirvin's fantasy (MS will abandon WM in favour of longhorn mini-tablets)

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91845&page=6&pp=15

If I was in a business and my sales decreased by nearly 50% in 3 years I would be very very worried. Forget WM (as you clearly want to) but why is POS not selling well?

Surur

No one believed MS would ever succeed in the mobile device space, and yet here we are. Microsoft has beaten Palm. WinMob now outsells PalmOS. In fact, Microsoft no longer has PalmOS in its sights..it is irrelevant. Their real target now is Symbian, or rather Nokia. RIM to a lesser extent. The next "big thing" is downloadable audio and video content on phones, and guess who is poised to win that fight? Microsoft of course. PalmOS is going be left out of this space because it has ZERO support from content services. There is no Napster client for PalmOS, no Windows Media Player for PalmOS, no support from Sony, Apple, etc. PalmOS can't playback DRM encrypted Windows Media audio, which means you can't download music from any online music service onto your phone. There is some minor support from Real's Rhapsody, but that's going nowhere.

So that means the only media rich mobile platforms will be Windows Mobile and Symbian. If this industry takes off, a lot of future Treo users will be greatly pissed off that their $400-600 device can't access music/content services, while kids with el cheapo Nokia phones can download audio and video onto their phones.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

http://www.itweek.co.uk/vnunet/news/2126742/blackberry-growth-fuels-pda-bonanza

So you expect them to give up a cash cow and not to be able to tender a full solution (server, desktop, notebook, PDA, PDA-phone)? Svrontis, keep dreaming please. It must be nice over there.

Surur

Did you know Palm's average selling price is only around $285 (including the Treo)?

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050405/plmo10-q.html

Surur

http://www.blackberrycool.com/2005/05/05/00415/
http://blogs.zdnet.com/ITFacts/?p=7133

Even Palm is up. That $285 is up from $225, which is up from $175 the year earlier.

Its a major illusion to think people are not willing to pay big bucks for PDA's. They are just willing to pay more for PocketPC's, which new OEM's really should take notice of.

Surur

* Durability
* Ruggability
* Efficient Cooling of the Handheld

Plastic Cases, what I have found out, when I owned the Tungsten T5, doesn't handle heat that well, and I felt that Plastic Cases, as handhelds become faster, will cause handhelds to be destroyed due to ambient heat--therefore it is extremely important that Palm considers using Smooth, Brushed, Heat-Sinking Anodized Aluminum not just for durability, but to cool the circuit boards, memory and processor chips of the handhelds.

I think Metal cases tend to cool the insides of the handheld much better than plastic, but I'm hoping that Palm will use Anodized Aluminum Casings for the Tungsten and LifeDrive line of Handhelds from this point on (as I'm getting tired of Plastic Casings, not for durability issues, but for heat problems that needs to be rectified in the future).

I think that there should be Copper Basing aimed at the memory and processor chips of the circuit board and the case to be all-anodized aluminum for efficient heat dissipation.

Those of you who favor metal cases should think about Anodized Aluminum instead--Heat inside the Handheld should also be an issue, not just durability.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

As for metal shells and wifi, the LD has WiFi in a metal shell doesn't it?

"Ruggability" is not a real word.

The corporate market (as well as some individuals and poor Georg) has been screaming for a ruggedized, industrial-spec "ToughPalm" device for ages now. Right now the Symbol units are available and pretty dang robust but they use stone-age m500-or-lower technology.

Matsu****a, bring 'em on!

As for the remark to bury the Tungsten line.... no No NO!!!

Zires are either too low end or multimedia oriented to offer high end specs and features, Lifedrive is still in its infancy, especially at that price and amt of bugs. Tungstens are the last alternative. Sure, the T5 may have been a letdown, but I still consider the T|T3 to be one superb device (with bad points, like the obvious battery life). It's still a great value for the average price of $325 now.

... one may switch to the darkside for a variety of reasons ... but PIMs!?!? Never heard that one yet.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Palm has done a wonderful job over the years of adding mimimal features and repackaging the same device (i.e., m500, m515, t2, t3, e and e2). However, they sold at a premium. So, I refused to be bamboozled, lied to, deceived, misled, lead astry, tricked, punked by a change in the company name and logo. However, I'm anxiously awaiting the release of the rumoured Tungsten XX (the T5 with added Wi-fi)....SIKE!!

I have just about every release of Palm's high-end product up until the Tungsten T3. I've spent thousands of dollars in hardware, software and accessories. However, I lost interest simply because Palm just wasn't doing it for me anymore. They became boring.

My requirements aren't that complex (at least I don't think so) based on the technology available today. However, wouldn't you find a device about the 1/4th the size of the LifeDrive with celluar (GSM), Wi-fi, and Bluetooth functionality attractive? Especially, if it was built on the m500-series or simular platform. I realize they would never release something like that because it would be in direct competition with the Treo devices.

Let's see what will happen upon the release of upcoming Palm device. With rumored devices (i.e., Motorola's PocketPC Razor Blackberry knockoff) over the horizon, I hope Palm has a few tricks up their sleeve.

I too changed to PPC (Dell X50v), but I don't post about all the 'great' things PPC has. Yes, I gave up on Palm after the T5, but I still watch (and hope) for a Palm device to use again. Some people here might think of your post(s) as someone who is trolling. Just a thought...

All good things...

-Dual wireless
-Decent battery life
-320*480 screen of good quality (OLED is *not* a necessity at this point)
-Voice recorder
-Charging LED
-Good hardware buttons
-Reset button not requiring unscrewing stylus cap
-User-selectable Graffiti 1/2
-OS STABILITY
-Solid build quality
-At least 64mb of RAM, NVFS or otherwise.

Nice secondary items to have:

-Vibrating alarm
-Dual SDIO or single SDIO w/ internal flash drive
-Metal body or at least metal-trim on bezel
-Loud alarms
-Slim formfactor with rail on left side of unit for case attachments (Palm V, m500, T5)
-T|T/LD style boing boing stylus
-Good software bundle
-Cradle included

The vast majority of the above is not leading edge tech!!!
It comes down to Palm/P1 being penny wise & dollar foolish! I can live without 802.11g, OLED screen, built-in 2mp digicam w/ video capture, a built-in HD etc. ID the core PDA is at least capable of decent multimedia, doesn't craap out on me after 6 months of daily usage, and has a battery that can get me through a few continuous workdays without recharging.

All of the above points have been available one at least one OS5 Palm/PalmOne device over the past 2.5 years. In fact, the LifeDrive has many of the above points addressed with the glaring omissions of slim formfactor, good battery life, and OS STABILITY. Palm HAS the resources and know-how to assemble a solid handheld with at least 3/4 of the above features.

Basically, give us a slimmer LD without the HD & the bugs and with a removable battery. The Palm faithful have been crying for such a device since 2002 (at least). It's not a matter of R&D (well, it IS at the OS level of things) it's a matter of cost cutting and making the bean counters stop skimping on RAM etc.

If the hkklife's list is truly "for today" and not forward thinking, then where is the device right now? And what would be wrong with going ahead and building it now and selling it as the mid-range device while they spend the big bucks on r&d for the "two year from now" hardware? [exasperation] No, I know that simply isn't going to happen.[/exasperation]

Personally, I've quit adding to my "dream list" in the hopes that Palm will finally deliver. It's called "lowered expectations."

(And just to clarify, Palm, if you somehow think my lowered expectations are a good thing, think again.)

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

So, they lose sales. If my Zire 72 breaks today, I am in the market for an Axim, not a Palm. And to point back to the top of this thread/topic; It has nothing to do with the name or logo.

I have a suspicion that the Growth and Peak of Palm was due to irrational exuberance at the turn of the century. When the bubble burst, so did Palm, and device shipments never really recovered. Now they DID ship a pile of devices, but obviously people were as much caught up in the high tech go-go atmosphere as the companies. Obviously after investing $1000's in high-tech companies whats $300-500 on a PDA to keep track of it all. I suspect most of these devices are in drawers somewhere.

Did you know in 2002 Gartner still predicted $17 billion PDA's would be shipped by 2007?
http://www.clickz.com/stats/sectors/hardware/article.php/1472941

This 1999 article from CNN (which is actually quite good) really gives a feeling of the optimisms of the time. It talks of PDA's outshipping desktops by 2003, selling more than 21 million.
http://cgi.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9907/14/handheld.idg/

Win CE has grown more slowly and rationally, and will hopefully be more resilient to change in market conditions.

Surur

Yep, and it irks me to no end that I can't get that hardware without moving to WinMob. Or, I have to pay twice as much for a LD and get the "hard drive feature" that I so desparately don't want. (No offense to you LD owners who love your "gigs of storage", but I'd rather have the size/weight/battery-usage reduction and choose my own storage size in the form of "non-moving" flash memory which I will likely still be using long after your hard drive grinds to a halt.)

T5 body, T3 feature set, + Wifi, + a second card slot. How hard can that be? And if I can get that on a PPC for <$300, why can't Palm do it?

My T2's digitizer is dying. I'm in the market for a replacement. If the rumored T7 doesn't show up soon or shows up with the "dumbed-down" T5 feature set, I am seriously going to have to consider another platform. And..., It has nothing to do with the name or logo.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

this seems the most random post ever otherwise

Thank you for your help, John Berger.

http://home.ingdirect.com/products/products.html

It seems like an exact 'cut and paste' job from the ING corporate identity. Just add some strange futuristic font for the "Palm" part.

So maybe the designer was bored redesigning the logo every other year and just outsourced the thing this time to some high school kid for a hundred bucks and an E2. If they paid more, they paid too much.

Now when I log onto ING direct from my Treo 700 (with 256MB Real RAM) I will see TWO orange logos. Radical, dude.

Palm, formerly known as PalmOne, formerly known as Palm.

You've come a long way, baby...

I bought the slanders against 6.0, but I still maintain that 6.1 *is* ready for prime time.

Make it so, Ed!

This falls right in line with my previous thoughts---PalmOne "nudged" PalmSource to get Cobalt 6.1 to a working,shipping level. Then during the "Palm" acquisition, some secret treaty was signed to let P1 buy up Cobalt and all its related IP this fall for pennies on the dollar. That'll ensure three things:

-P1/Palm can field a decent line of Cobalt-equippied handhelds & Treos in 2006
-PalmSource gets a badly needed cash injection (past the $30 mil they already got) to hang in there a while longer to develop PoL
-No other licensees can get their hands on a Cobalt unless they can pry it out of Palm's hands and/or struck a deal earlier with PalmSource (GSPDA etc).

All of this adds up to what will basically be Palm releasing at least two or three Cobalt units in '06, buying up the pieces of PalmSource at firesale pricing in fall '06, and getting a Treo running PoL by fall '07.

Properly tweaked/patched, Garnet IS still srvicable for low to midrange handhelds for the next year (think T|E2 and below). It's the LifeDrives/T7/Treos that so desperately need Cobalt. Like Mike, I've still be maintaining that all of that time, man-hours, and $ thrown at Cobalt is going to pay off EVENTUALLY for SOMEONE.

Along about Christmas we'll hear someone calling himself "M Mace" revealing exactly the same rumors about the new Treo/DeathStar/Dire model that runs Lipalm.

Why would it take so long for Palm to spit it out?

1) This is the way they are
2) PalmSource dropped Mac syncing
3) Palm would have to write a new Desktop/HotSync software for Cobalt anyway -- including the *Mac* version.
4) Having gotten the Treo established, they can now risk amping the OS

Numbers are illustrative, not time-sequential...

And I'd REALLY like it to be true. The bump in RAM/FRAM/whatever makes sense, although I'd like to see 128MB, not 64MB.

For the naysayers -- why would WANT it to be UNTRUE?

I think PalmSource dumped the Mac syncing simply in order to cut costs in order to survive! There's no point having Mac syncing when there's no Palm OS to provide!

PalmSource has sunk to the same level of desperation as a man with gangrene in his leg: He may not like hopping along but he's got to chop off his leg if he's to save himself. The question we're all asking here is whether PalmSource has cut away enough of the infection or worse still, cut his head off by mistake in the effort to save himself?
Palm (formerly PalmOne) has been donating blood (dollars) for the operation but that's so it can be first in line for PalmSource's organs (PalmLinux) should it croak on the table.

It did surprise me to find out that the Mac sync was different to the Windows sync. I still don't understand why the Mac can't speak to Palm OS the same way Windows can. After all, we use different browsers on different platforms (XP, OS X, Linux, Symbian) yet they all (by and by) interpret HTML in the same way.

Perhaps this is something Mark/Space have achieved with their Palm syncing software for Mac OS X.

----------
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight � it�s the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Yeah, you are probably right. I was actually just digging for a response with the comment that iPod will fail. They seem to be playing against their competitors, both hardware and software, much better than Palm is. We'll see.

"I would hire a few Palm geeks, prominent members of the user community with established name recognition, to work for Palm and surf the various discussion boards all day. They'll be given full access to what's coming up at Palm, new products, and access to the developers."

OK, Kirvin. Pick seven from this list:

Foo Fighter (Kent Pribbernow)*
Ska
Mike Cane
cbowers*
The Voice of Reason*
Larry Garfield*
Surur*
Jeff Kirvin
SeldomVisitor (hengeem)
Gekko
hkklife*
twizza (Antoine Wright)*
LiveFaith (Pat Horne)
RhinoSteve
svrontis

My two personal favorites:

e-tellurian
vesther

*The actual members of this new "Magnificent Seven". Strange how Kirvin's not on the list...

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

OOOOOOH. What a big man.

Talk about big fish in a little pond.

I've heard that same ridiculous shipped-versus-sold and units-returned argument from other people, and the answer remains the same. The number of units that would have to be returned to restore the sales numbers to what these folks have in their heads is mind-boggling. And the idea that somehow manufacturers can get away with over-shipping products, month after month, without selling them... Does he think that Dell, who ships directly to their customers, is including two or three extra Axims in each box?

Actually, it appears that he's worse than a zealot. He's become a manipulative individual who pretends to know a lot more about PDAs and the PDA industry than he actually does. I suspect his desire to work for Palm is at the root of his attacks. Kirvin's frequent bashing of Palminfocenter is very sad. Makes me wonder why he (or is it Palm?) are so fearful of what is likely the only remaining site that tries to encourage honest discussion of all sides of the issues. In reading his posts, I've been stunned to learn how little he knows about PDAs despite Kirvin having blogged about them for several years. In recent weeks he's apparently taken to plagiarizing posts from various Palm sites as he tries to come up with semi-coherent material to post. He's actually become the laughingstock of the PDA community.

Unlike you, I've never found "Eggo" Kirvin to have had anything remotely interesting to say. He waffles even more than his namesake. Most recently he ranted aggressively about the current PalmOS being able to effectively only to quickly backpedal after several of us pointed out that he is full of poo. He then changed tactics saying, "Do Palms really multitask? Who cares?" Kirvin has repeated flip flopped from being blindly gung ho about one device after another, one platform after another over the years, seemingly lacking the perspective to appreciate that no single device or platform is perfect. He pretends to be a PDA "expert", yet lacks even rudimentary understanding about PDA OSes, hardware software, or the industry. He couldn't debate his way out of a wet paper bag, and when he's (repeatedly) made to look like a fool during an online debate, Kirvin resorts to calling everyone he disagrees with "trolls" or "wingnuts", etc. How impressive.

I've heard that same ridiculous shipped-versus-sold and units-returned argument from other people, and the answer remains the same. The number of units that would have to be returned to restore the sales numbers to what these folks have in their heads is mind-boggling. And the idea that somehow manufacturers can get away with over-shipping products, month after month, without selling them... Does he think that Dell, who ships directly to their customers, is including two or three extra Axims in each box?

As Palm's fortuners have declined, the absurdity of the rationalizations and excuses have increased exponentially. In the past six years we've heard Palm and its Apologists say "Who needs color screens, expansion, multimedia, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, VGA screens and now multitasking. No doubt if PalmLinux ever gets released, Kirvin will be blogging that multitasking (REAL multitasking!) is the most important advance ever seen on PDAs.

Caveat lector!

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

........In......Out.....diff....Left On Shelves
q2 04 99000 80000 19000 19000
q3 04 138000 100000 38000 57000
q4 04 151000 120000 31000 88000
q1 05 237000 160000 77000 165000
q2 05 340000 200000 140000 305000
q3 05 280000 280000 0 305000

Q3 05 is in balance however. Does this mean they recalled or wrote of a large amount of stock?

BTW SeldomVisitor, where can I download these presentations?

Surur

I do find PIC's "bitterness" easier to stomach.

After the recent bout of JK on this site, I dropped in on 1SRC to see for myself. I listened to a few of the podcasts and read through some of the threads. According to the last podcast I tortured myself with, JK would label me a troll! Yes, someone appears to have gone off the deep end.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

As for holding people to account, why don't you post under your real name?

And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

So, with all that out of the way....where are the latest T7 rumors?

As for holding people to account, why don't you post under your real name?

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

I think my posts under "The Voice of Reason" have shown that I know what I'm talking about, I'm brutally honest, and have little patience with those who prefer to spread lies, SPIN, FUD and BS. Most of the things I say have either already been or are now being proven to be true, and I think my posts here can easily stand for themselves. If I tell you who The Voice of Reason really is (actually several people spread among a few countries are posting under this name, in case you didn't realize ;-O) I don't think it would alter the validity of TVoR's posts, now would it?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to... you know... kill you.

THINK about it, Caney.

And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

?
Please explain that one, Little Man.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

You know exactly what I mean.

You know exactly what I mean.

Actually, I don't. Please enlighten us all, Bottom Boy.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Sony won't destroy Palm - Palm is quite capable of destroying itself, thank you very much.

You want FUD? How about FACTS instead? Like PalmSource stock dropping like a rock (reached a new all-time low of less than $8 today). Like Cobalt being shunned by Palm. Like Cobalt being slow and unstable. Like a Windows Mobile Treo being announced Real Soon Now. Like PalmLinux development taking at least another 18 - 24 months before devices using it could even THEORETICALLY ship. Like the lack of multitasking in PalmOS sealing the OS's fate... I could go on but biotchslapping etiquette dictates that I should stop once the biotchslappee is slapped senseless.

It's not FUD if it's true, Bubba. Don't cry.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

I believe that the M$ beancounters are itching to terminate development of WinMob 5.0, on the grounds that the WinMob division has never made any money and it looks like it never will.

I also believe that HP is in poor shape, and their iPAQ line may be axed (or severly whittled back) to save on costs. With the largest licensee in such trouble, this can only mean a lot more losses for the WinMob division.

M$ might decide to bear the pain a little while longer for the sake of licensing to smartphone makers - but this will need to be a decision at the M$ Board level.

Let's face it, M$ is not in the business of making losses. The WinMob division has a very poor track record in this regard, despite all the restructurings and the empty promises from the marketing guys year after year.

This was also evident in the 'launch' of WinMob 5.0 (how do you 'launch' a product when nobody can buy it?) a while ago. Essentially, they were trying to show what they could deliver in the future if only they had a little more time. It's all there in the press releases - you just need to read between the lines a little. Despite all the marketing glitz, the real objective of this 'launch' related to internal M$ politics - the WinMob division is just trying to buy more time in the hope that they might survive long enough to earn a profit someday (maybe).

They have made the same promises year after year. Result? Red ink - an endless flow of it (although, last year it was not as bad before). But for their markeing guys, the story is always the same - profits are just around the corner; there is light at the end of the tunnell. Year after year the losses have continued.

You have to admire the spirit of the WinMob executives, though - they are not going to go down without a fight. Brave, but futile - because, in the end, the M$ beancounters will not tolerate ongoing losses.

Confession: It bothers me that Mr Kirvan has picked up on this theme on other websites. Given his track record, I'm thinking that if he agrees with me, then my speculations must be wrong. (Anyway, if I'm wrong, I'm sure the Whiners will not neglect to remind me a few thousand times.)

And, uh, HP made a billion dollars off their iPaqs last year, if I recall. Seriously, $1.15 billion, or around that mark. Given how lackluster most of their recent iPaqs have been, I have to assume that a lot of that is profit, and I can't see HP slashing a profitable unit, particularly now. Their average selling price is over $400: if there's even just $20 of profit in there per unit, then their PocketPCs are more profitable than their desktop and laptop business. There's even less evidence that HP is in danger as a Windows licensee than there is that Palm is dropping Palm OS.

No, Microsoft's WM division isn't making money as far as I know, but they're not really losing any either. Microsoft has much larger money holes, and they tend to hang on to a project until it's proven to be impractical or impossible (see air panels, et al). They're not going to just dump Windows Mobile, particularly now that it's getting major 60/40 leverage in the handheld market. This seems to have been the Palm strategy for several years now--stick your fingers in your ears, hum really loud, and hope that Windows goes away.

As for the issues over Palm being a "FUD campaign," tell it to the Palm loyalists here who agree.

How do you launch a product that no one can buy? I don't know. Let's ask PalmSource, they have plenty of experience. Seriously, it's the same story as ever in handheld OSes, it will be out in a couple of months when the hardware gets here.

I'm all for balance, and I certainly don't want to see Palm end up plowing into the ground, but you're not entitled to make up your own facts to fit an argument. The truth is that Windows isn't going away, PalmOS isn't in a good place to compete, PalmSource is effectively dead, and it's Palm's move. They hold the future of the platform in their hands.

Not as bad as before i.e. Microsoft's WinMob is getting more profitable as time progresses. If the trend continues then it's only a matter of time before it is profitable, so why should Microsoft kill it now?

Let's look at matters from another angle: Judging from the info kindly provided by sr4's link, Microsoft's Mobile & Embedded Division (MED) lost around $75 million for year Apr04 to Mar05.
But, Microsoft has about $37 billion CASH in the bank.
Even assuming a really poor interest rate of 2% (which with $37 billion I'm sure it can do better), Microsoft earns enough interest alone in a month to cover that year's loss in the MED division.

Quite bluntly, Microsoft has the means to buy PalmSource AND Palm in one go in the blink of an eye; it won't be allowed to because the US Govt and EU will see it as creating a PDA monopoly. So it's doing the next best thing and fighting a war of attrition.

I'm no fan of Microsoft but it's time some people here wake up, smell the coffee and see the situation as it is. I prefer PalmOS to Pocket PC anyday but the Pocket PC competition is getting more and compelling as Microsoft continues to refine it, especially when PalmSource's equivalent effort with PalmOS has left a lot to be desired.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

This argument didn't hold water then...when Pocket PC had just 10% market share, and it sure as hell doesn't hold condensation now that Windows Mobile has somewhere between 50-60%.

And to think PalmSource let Mace go? What a great loss.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

PalmLinux is 2-3 years away, which is vaporware by tech timeline standards. If Palm could design cell phones like Nokia, and combine that hardware with world class software layered on top. Oh baby!.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

PDAs show up in the silliest places. Two weeks ago I was shopping at my local grocery store, when I heard the unmistakable sounds of a Pocket PC error message coming from the next aisle. They continued for several minutes, in almost rapid succession. I tried to refrain from laughing, and decided to see what the hell was happening. Did some kid have his parent's iPaq or something?

Much to my surprise I discovered the a store employee carrying a Dell Axim X5 with a Symbol scanner peripheral card, scanning butter. The "error" sound I was hearing was actually just a confirmation message, indicating a successful scan.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

WordPerfect is another example. They drug their feet in porting their popular DOS-based word processor to Windows. I believe the CEO once referred to Windows as a fad that would ultimately die out. So Microsoft offered its own homegrown product, and the rest is history.

Victim number 3; Lotus. This Office suite was once a favorite of mine. I was a total Lotus Organizer junky. It was my favorite PIM app, simple to use, well designed, and very lacking in features. Lotus failed to innovate. Microsoft continued to extend and improve its product while Lotus sat on its hands. Every version of Lotus Smartsuite I used from 96 on was nothing more than a rehashed version of the previous product. It didn't help matters that the company's last CEO, Jeff Papows, was a pathological liar. He once claimed he was a fighter pilot during the Gulf war. So, Lotus died..or rather was bought up by IBM, mainly for rights to Notes and Domino.

I have no doubts that PalmOS will be the next victim in this long running soap opera of tech tragedies. However, this time there can be no denial that PalmSource is to blame the demise of their platform, without any help from Redmond. Consumers chose Windows Mobile by choice.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

It's those facts and the ability to apply them which make the difference between people being able to travel in vehicles by air land or sea, treat illnesses, build comfortable shelters etc or still being stuck in caves eating raw meat because they can't even figure out how to make a fire!

By all means disagree, debate can make for progress but try to make sure your debate is based on fact and informed.
If you see a two litre container with one litre of milk in it, there will always be the age old debate of whether it's half full or half empty - we all see the same amount of milk but it's a matter of opinion, perspective and circumstance whether it's described as half full or half empty.

I think what I, Surer and TVoR find annoying is that the Palm Apologists look at an empty container and insist on telling us all that it's actually overflowing with milk.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

However, I have said this many times, HP is not he be all or end all of WM handhelds. I have owned 4 PocketPC's over the years, and only one (my first) was a HP/Compaq PPC. They are only 30% of the WM market, and there are a pile of others with a similarly high profile (Dell and Asus to name two) and a pile of phone edition devices which are completely unbranded.

If HP sold their PC business tomorrow (which has been touted as a possibility) it does not mean the market for PC's will collapse, or that no one in America would be able to buy one. WM devices are exactly the same.

Surur

On this particular point, I don't need to do any research. My better half is a senior manager at NCR (she was even based in Dayton for a while; but she escaped that mad-house). I don't believe I'm revealing any secrets in telling you that R&D was hammered by Mr Hurd (except for his pet data center project).

That wasn't directed at you. I was referring to the original notion that Palm should hire PalmOS groupies to lurk on forums all day, acting as liaisons between community and company. Whose idea was that? Kirvin'? He should know better.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

I think what I, Surer and TVoR find annoying is that the Palm Apologists look at an empty container and insist on telling us all that it's actually overflowing with milk.

Well said. But what I find MOST annoying is the fact that Palm's greed and laziness is slowly killing off a platform that I've had a lot of fun using (and even depended on) since the release of the original Pilots. Mike Cane makes fun of me for having stockpiled so many CLIEs, but I did so because I truly believe I'll never see any high quality PalmOS PDAs released again. I just wish Sony had stayed around long enough to release an OLED-screened UX model, but the brilliant-but-flawed UX50, TH55 and VZ90 will keep me happy with PalmOS for years to come. Tablet and clamshell PDAs were so close to achieving their optimum form factor by 2004 that using NOS (New Old Stock) CLIEs from now on will be no problem for me, especially since I'll be able to keep using my familiar old software. Ultimately, it's the SOFTWARE that makes PalmOS such a great platform. At this point, all I want is for Samsung or Sony Ericsson to release a tiny, high quality, phone-centric Bluetooth phone running the Treo 600 OS. After that happens, PalmSource and Palm could blow up for all I care.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Kirvin has been wishing for that for a while. Probably because he thinks that would be a great job for him to get. I quoted him in the first post of this thread. This guy's beyond ridiculous and Kirvin is rapidly drowning himself in the lake of B.S. that he's spewing out. Most of his posts have become nearly-incoherent stream-of-consciousness rants that immediately fall apart on on even cursory inspection.

I'm not sure if he's having personal problems or if the stress of posting to several sites has overwhelmed him, but Kirvin really needs to sit down, S T F U and stop spewing out crap like what he's been posting over the past several months. Up until this year, some people actually had respect for what he said. Not anymore...

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

M$ doesn't sell handheld computers; it realies completely on OEMs to do that. This is M$ 'achilles heal' in this market. Their fortunes are tied to the financial success of their licensees

You are wrong: there's no difference with respect to PalmSource vs. Microsoft because they both have the same business model - that of selling their operating systems to OEMs.
This is the important similarity that the Palm Apologists are not prepared to admit

Theoretically OEMs can obtain licences from both Microsoft and PalmSource but in practice OEMs are deciding between one or the other i.e. competition for which OS the OEM will use. Hell, one OEM which had a licence for both, Acer, was so keen to drop PalmOS that it was prepared to lose money going to court rather than continue being a PalmOS licensee. Thus, Microsoft is in direct competition with PalmSource and just as it destroyed Netscape, it's in a position to destroy PalmSource and thus Palm OS with it.

Now let's compare and contrast: Microsoft has 40 OEM licensees for its Windows Mobile OS, at least three of which: Acer, Dell and HP are volume producers. Even if HP as you suggest leaves the handheld market, that still leaves Acer and Dell. In a worse case scenerario, if all those OEMS shun WinMob tomorrow, Microsoft still has Windows XP, Windows Server, Office, .NET, XBox etc etc to carry on generating revenue for them.

Now compare with PalmSource: it has 12 OEM licensees, only one of which, PalmOne is a volume producer (yea yea LG has potential but in the same sense Kirvin has potential to be president of the US: potential counts for squat until it's brought to fruition). If all these OEMs shun PalmOS tomorrow (dare I say it but they've certainly shunned Cobalt until recently) then they've got... umm... umm... umm PalmLinux to rely on which by their own admission won't be ready for another year probably, hopefully, maybe...

Well if they can't sell Cobalt or PalmLinux then there's always, umm, umm, umm selling the Palm name for $30 million. Oh damn, they've done that already!

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

I better up my life insurance...

Surur

Ok, let me get this right.

First, there is a board on PIC that is titled "I hate Jeff" or words to that effect.

Second, buried in a thread on PalmOne going back to Palm we have a tangent basically bashing Jeff Kirvin, cross posts and the like.

Third, of the posts in this thread Mike Cane has the most rational, civil posts of the bunch.

And Jeff Kirvin is the stupid, crazy idiot. Right.

just keep thinking that. I am sure the the nice people will be by with your meds soon.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

>mikecane @ 7/19/2005 10:14:52 AM #

>I'm not for hire, you pathetic stalking loser.

Sorry, thought he was talking about you. Actually, Mike uses the term "stalker" like most yankees say "Youse guys". Does not really register with me.

>As for holding people to account, why don't you post under >your real name?

Another rational statement bt Mr. Cane.

>And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

Sounds like a personal problem to me. Please don't go in to it, the statute of limitations might not have run yet.

mikecane @ 7/20/2005 9:53:12 AM #

>>>Please explain that one, Little Man.

You know exactly what I mean.

mikecane @ 7/22/2005 8:17:16 AM #

>>>Up until this year, some people actually had respect for what he said.

At least he's had respect. You never had. Nor deserve any.

How are the Michigan kidz, boyo? How are those med stats coming along? Lab work got you down?

Well this just seems like your normal thing of repeating things a lot and trying to con people inot thinking you are worth listening to.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

As for holding people to account, why don't you post under your real name?

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

I think my posts under "The Voice of Reason" have shown that I know what I'm talking about, I'm brutally honest, and have little patience with those who prefer to spread lies, SPIN, FUD and BS. Most of the things I say have either already been or are now being proven to be true, and I think my posts here can easily stand for themselves. If I tell you who The Voice of Reason really is (actually several people spread among a few countries are posting under this name, in case you didn't realize ;-O) I don't think it would alter the validity of TVoR's posts, now would it?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to... you know... kill you.

THINK about it, Caney.

And how ARE the kids in Michigan these days?

?
Please explain that one, Little Man.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Yeh, right. 3 real licensees and 37 also-rans who just make up the numbers.

Of the three real licensees you refer to (a) one (HP) is suffering financial problems and the speculation is that they will cut back on their commitment to this line; (b) one (Dell) which keeps promising to make a big impact in the market, but which has only released two lacktustre models in the last three years (which are being heavily discounted in the market in order to move inventories); (c) as for the last (Acer) I can't think of the last model they introduced.

Is this what you are betting the farm on?

Grasshopper, the lesson from all this is that without profitable licensees, WinMob will NEVER make any money on WinMob.

Your comparison with PalmSource is valid in a way. PalmSource had product which they claimed was the apotheosis of handheld technology (ie, Cobalt) - no one wanted to buy it - goodbye PalmSource. The M$ marketing guys keep telling us that someday WinCE/PPC/WinMob (or whatever it will be called after the next restructure) will be the apotheosis of handheld technology - if there are no OEMs who want to buy it (because they can't make money out of handheld devices) - goodbye WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever.

Not that I really care on way or the other, but calling the x50v lackluster is a wee bit silly. Lackluster compared to what? The T5? The LifeDrive?

Give me a break.

The link to the "I hate you Jeff" thread on PIC:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28173&sid=ce1be56924000a7322d93f7f9a3f0c3a

Regarding the rest of your post, the main problem I have with VoR and his ilk is not their arguements as such. If you are willing to sift through the childish personal attacks VoR, Gekko and Mike Cane make good points. In fact, Mike Cane is probably one of the best Internet researchers I have seen. VoR and Gekko are pretty good as well. However, the problem is that they are like the street preachers I used to see growing up. The message is obscured by the ranting and screaming to the point one chooses to go across the street to avoid them.

While I don't have a problem with "handles" per se, it bothers me quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname. This is especally true when people go out of their way to make personal attacks by researching the person they are trying to smear. The pity is the personal attack is usually for no other reason than they disagree with your position. I am not real proud that I tend to treat VoR like he treats other people but I do because I have serious questions about his cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of his expertise is, since he claims to be so many things. As for Mike Cane, I know enough about his background to make allowances. (I predit a pot shot from Cane over that comment)

I obviously do not agree with Jeff Kirvin's view on PIC since I am here. At the same time, I respect his position. After all, a lot of my practice involves crminals, juvenile justice and disability cases so I am used to dealing with thugs, delinquents, and the mentally ill.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

Ok, leave aside the spec sheet and try actually using a x50v for more than about two hours. That's all it generally takes for the novelty to wear off. To run that screen it needs a fast processor, which it sure has - but it gets in the way of any processor intensive apps, resulting in mediocre performance. Let's not even go into the battery life problems. Anyway, you obviously are not going to believe it unless you try it yourself - you should be able to pick one up cheap on eBay.

In contrast the expansys.com had current Palms from Palm (PalmOne), Garmin and AlphaSmart only; with the GroupSense mobile status being described as "pre-release". They had older Palms from Sony and PalmOne.

I chose expansys.com because they're a very comprehensive online retailer-I've bought many a Palm product from them.

If there's anyone who has licensees which are there to make up the numbers it's PalmSource.

Is this what you are betting the farm on?
At least 3 (as you put it)real WinMob licensees versus 1 real PalmOS licensee, i.e. 3 chances versus one chance, never mind what I bet, it's evident more OEMs are placing their bets with Microsoft: 40 versus 12.
It disappoints me personally as I prefer PalmOS but I seem to be in the minority.

Grasshopper, the lesson from all this is that without profitable licensees, WinMob will NEVER make any money on WinMob.

Your comparison with PalmSource is valid in a way. PalmSource had product which they claimed was the apotheosis of handheld technology (ie, Cobalt) - no one wanted to buy it - goodbye PalmSource. The M$ marketing guys keep telling us that someday WinCE/PPC/WinMob (or whatever it will be called after the next restructure) will be the apotheosis of handheld technology - if there are no OEMs who want to buy it (because they can't make money out of handheld devices) - goodbye WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever.

Not "valid in a way", they're totally valid: PalmSource and Microsoft are competing for the same business using the same business model. As for marketing people, they're paid to promote their clients' products in the best way possible. If their clients tell them that their software is the apotheosis of handheld technology then they'll promote it as such.

The difference between Microsoft and PalmSource is that unlike PalmSource, if WinMob fails Microsoft doesn't fail with it. Microsoft can resurrect WinMob again "when the time is right" - in the same way Apple resurrected Newton's handwriting technology within MacOS X. Windows 1 and Windows 2 were dismal failures; Microsoft learnt from its mistakes to create Windows 3 and the rest is history.

I'm sure that PalmSource's ill health as a company is of the utmost concern to Palm and no doubt they've been debates as to whether they should rescue PalmOS and/or PalmSource should the need arise or switch to an alternative mobile OS.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Your comparison with PalmSource is valid in a way. PalmSource had product which they claimed was the apotheosis of handheld technology (ie, Cobalt) - no one wanted to buy it - goodbye PalmSource. The M$ marketing guys keep telling us that someday WinCE/PPC/WinMob (or whatever it will be called after the next restructure) will be the apotheosis of handheld technology - if there are no OEMs who want to buy it (because they can't make money out of handheld devices) - goodbye WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever.

Do you REALLY believe the things you say? Even if you ignore the sheer numbers (licensees, sales volume, development staff, available resources), look at the momentum. Palm is in a tailspin while Windows mobile seems to be slowly improving in most measurable ways year after year. If you agree with conventional thinking that Windows Mobile is considered by Microsoft to be an important product/market (makes sense if you look at Microsoft's overall strategy) it seems unlikely that they would suddenly give up when they're so close to Netscaping their main competition. Worst case scenario (the unlikely loss of ALL major hardware manufacturers) would involve Microsoft simply lowering licensing fees to undercut its competition. Or just giving away Windows Mobile (as they did with Internet Explorer) to ensure Windows Mobile becomes the de facto standard. Of course they WON'T give the OS away - they won't need to and also are afraid of yet another bogus lawsuit.

It's time people stopped letting their "hatred" of Microsoft (reminds me of how everyone "hates" the New York Yankees and other teams that dominate markets by buying their way to supremacy...) cloud the real issues.

The real question is which OS is best suited to handle the needs of consumers today and in the near future. Without a proper implementation of "real" multitasking, Palm is at a huge disadvantage now that wirelessly connected PDAs are becoming more important than non-connected PDAs.

Microsoft's user interface deficiencies can be ameliorated somewhat with utilities like Wisbar, etc. On the other hand, no utility in the world can add missing core functionality to PalmOS 5. So it seems obvious that with Palm's hardware and OS now being no longer competitive, the platform's decline will escalate. Trying to "hold on tight" for two more years in a PalmOS 5 (Garnet) lifeboat awaiting rescue by a ship (HMS PalmLinux) that hasn't even been built yet seems like a strategy doomed to fail. While I've argued elsewhere that PalmOS 5 might remain serviceable for years to come, this would only be possible by performing a clean sheet re-write that fixes all of the buggy code and exposes EVERYTHING to developers. I don't think Palm has the engineering resources/skill or time to do this. Do you?

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

What are you - like 12 years old? It "bothers [you] quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname"? Bwahahaha!

And you "have serious questions about [my] cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of [my] expertise is, since [I] claim[s] to be so many things"? Bwahahaha!

Bubba, grow up. This is the Internet. The message is what matters - not the person writing it. My posts stand on their own. Whether I'm the CEO of Palm/PalmSource, am an Palm/PalmSource employee, have contacts within Palm/PalmSource, am a developer, work for Microsoft or am just an end user, you can decide for yourself whether or not what I say is true. Or get your mommy to decide. Bwahahaha!

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

First, I was not talking to you, but since this is a public thread I will respond.

I would compare and contrast the civil exchange that twrock and I had to the manner of your response.

To address your specific responses:

rcartwright said:
>While I don't have a problem with "handles" per se, it bothers me quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname. This is especally true when people go out of their way to make personal attacks by researching the person they are trying to smear. The pity is the personal attack is usually for no other reason than they disagree with your position. I am not real proud that I tend to treat VoR like he treats other people but I do because I have serious questions about his cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of his expertise is, since he claims to be so many things. As for Mike Cane, I know enough about his background to make allowances. (I predit a pot shot from Cane over that comment)

VoR butts in:
>What are you - like 12 years old? It "bothers [you] quite a bit that there is no way to gague the cred of someone who hides behind a nickname"? Bwahahaha!<

I am cut to the quick by your insightful and intellectual response. (sarcasm intended) No, actually I am 45 with two advanced degrees.

VoR continues:
>And you "have serious questions about [my] cred as its not at all clear just what the basis of [my] expertise is, since [I] claim[s] to be so many things"? Bwahahaha!

VoR, I just respond to what you put out there. You have claimed expertise/inside information about so many things, I have to question your credibility about everything. That's part of the hiding your real identity thing. You may have a hidden agenda. Heck, you might be Bill Gates .
...and VoR comtinues with more of the same:

>Bubba, grow up.< Never!

>This is the Internet.< Really? I thought it was Kansas, since there are so many narrow minded folks here.

> The message is what matters - not the person writing it. My posts stand on their own. Whether I'm the CEO of Palm/PalmSource, am an Palm/PalmSource employee, have contacts within Palm/PalmSource, am a developer, work for Microsoft or am just an end user, you can decide for yourself whether or not what I say is true.< This would be a valid point, but while you back up some of your assertions with facts, far too often they are open to differenet takes or like in the Surer v. Kirvin debate on another site the bottom line supports the argument but when you break out the data its another matter. Also, you are far too fond of "inside information" that absent knowing if you have any connection to the industry its hard to tell if you are BSing or not.

and the cherry on top for VoR:

> Or get your mommy to decide. Bwahahaha!<

Wish I could chump, but seeing as she died a few months ago a little hard to do. Another example of how to lose the respect of your audience.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

He simply doesn't have a clue what he's talking about
I think he has just barely enough of a clue to get himself in way over his head. I would compare it to me attempting the same. But I don't.

I've never listened to any of his blogcasts because the lack of insight Kirvin displays in his post shows that he has no business acting as a pundit/"expert".
If you haven't yet, don't bother. It'd only give you more ammunition.

My track record here at PIC has shown that there aren't too many times I've been shown to be wrong.
Two responses from me. First, I agree when it comes to issues concerning the Palm platform. There are of course other things that are discussed. It may also be that the people capable of proving you wrong simply havent'/won't bother/are not allowed to do so. Second, there are still a number of "outstanding" issues/topics about which we have yet to see the actual conclusion. I'll withhold judgement until it all plays out and I have a more complete set of data. It often isn't until much after the fact that the truth is revealed.

...leave the commentary to people like David Pogue and Larry Garfield who actually know what they're talking about.
We agree about Larry Garfield. But Pogue? He lost credibility with me when he ran that little piece on the LD taking six seconds to do "anything" and hasn't been willing to admit he's wrong (or did I miss that somewhere?).

Sorry, but I tell it like it is.
No way you are sorry! LOL Yes, you and Mr. Cronkite tell it like it is. (Where was that question about ego...?)

Enjoy everyone. I'm off for a ten day road trip. I'll look forward to seeing what happened in the nut house when I get back.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

svrontis said:

Yeh, right. 3 real licensees and 37 also-rans who just make up the numbers.

While HP and Dell are the major producers in the US market, it's inaccurate to say that there are only 3 "real" licensees. Other noteworthy licensees include Samsung, Asus, HTC, Garmin, and Acer, all of whom have hardware available in the US. That's not counting other international licensees such as Fujitsu, Mitac/Mio, LG, Toshiba, E-TEN, or Medion, who don't neccessarily participate in the US market.

"Of the three real licensees you refer to (a) one (HP) is suffering financial problems and the speculation is that they will cut back on their commitment to this line;

I watch pretty much all the handheld news sites, as well as mainstream news and stocks. You are the only person who is speculating this.

(b) one (Dell) which keeps promising to make a big impact in the market, but which has only released two lacktustre models in the last three years

Actually, they've released eleven models in the last 3 years, which is a big difference, and the Axims have consistently been among the most powerful and capable PocketPCs available, despite their low price.

As for your commentary on the X50v, I can only say that you're wrong. I've used an X50v extensively, and the small performance tradeoffs are minor compared to the features.

which are being heavily discounted in the market in order to move inventories);

This is grossly inaccurate. Dell sells units at these prices because it drives sales, and makes them money. For several months earlier this year, the X50v was actually unavailable in Europe because it was taking all the available production capacity to feed demand in the US and Canada.

"c) as for the last (Acer) I can't think of the last model they introduced."

The last models Acer introduced were the N50, a dual slot, dual wireless unit, and the N35 with integrated GPS.

And if you knew as much about the PocketPC market as you claim to, you would know that Acer isn't in the same category as Dell and HP in the US market.

You're right. It's MY speculation only - and everyone here at PIC will tell you that I'm always wrong.

FUD-Meiester: "You're right. It's MY speculation only..."

Bwahahaha!

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

A shame, really, as Majesco has some nice IP and licensed titles tied up. I assume they'll quickly be auctioned off to the highest bidder ala Interplay, Atari etc. Anyone remember the days when Majesco was a producer of licensed Sega hardware instead of a software publisher?

At least Yankowski never had the glorious pleasure to be sued by Palm's shareholders back in '01!
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=10233

Archived background info:
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-275604.html?legacy=cnet

(Ironic tidbit for this Sunday evening--look at the final sentence of the above story for Yank's '01 salary--SPOOKY!!)

The bloodletting starts with a Windows Mobile "Palm". Then the (TBA) poor earnings and pessimistic prediction for later this year. And the coup de grace: PalmLinux pushed back to 2007.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038