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    Comments on: Palm Large SD Card CompatibilityPalm has released a new report on SD card compatibility with Palm handhelds and smartphones. The results explain which devices are compatible with 1 and 2GB size MMC and SD cards.
Detailed Comment View (73 Total Comments)
The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PIC is not responsible for them in any way. login or register for free in order to post comments.  RE: Hacked drivers from LifeDrive can also help
The update is available at palm web site, for the Tungsten E models, http://www.palm.com/us/support/downloads/tungstene/sdioupdate.html That will solve the 2 Gb SD problem. That will probably fix the 2 Gb problem. Jan 
 Incomplete testing?AdamaDBrown @ 9/5/2005 4:16:05 PM #
Okay, it's great that they flagged the devices that can definitely use 2 GB cards. However, why didn't they specify compatibility for the other models? They had to have 2 GB cards available to test with. Was it really that difficult to pop them into an E2 and see if it ran? And if they didn't run right, you could always list the brands of cards that worked/didn't work for a given device. RE: Incomplete testing?KultiVator @ 9/6/2005 4:15:53 AM #
I agree - sounds to me like they're using this report as a marketing exercise to try to wean customers off of their older Palm devices and onto the current crop. I know Palm are out to ship units and make money - but to be honest, I know my T3 is happy running every 2GB SD card I've ever been able to try - so funny Palm aren't too keen to publish (or even admit testing) such results! So sorry Palm, I will continue to battle on with my T3!
(Why does Palm make it so hard to buy separate GPS car mounts?) 2GB SD card on a T3?ackmondual @ 9/6/2005 6:29:54 PM #
For real? T3's can use the full 2GB capacity (minus the cpacity reserved for file system use)? RE: Incomplete testing?
...and 4gig cards are available now, even with deals as low as <$200. Anyone know if those are compatible with Treo 650? Check out www.MobileRead.com for some great mobile computing info! How 'bout on the Treo 90?
I know that 2 gigs are not SDHC compliant, so I assumed that it would work on my Treo 90. It does, but it can't read my Kinoma movies. I wonder if the driver works on it... Can't hurt.
Can anyone comment
If you have successfully used a 2GB card on a Tungsten E2, T3, T2, T, Zire 71, 31, 21? -Ryan RE: Can anyone comment
I am using a 2 GB Sandisk card (normal speed, no Ultra II) with my T3. I have copied 2 GB of mp3 files to the card and can access all of them (grouped into three folders) using PocketTunes. I am also using a 1 GB Sandisk card with my audible audiobooks and Audible listener on my T3. RE: Can anyone comment
I've used a 2gb Sandisk standard card on my T5 w/ 1.1 update. Reading & writing was flawless and overall performance was quite good. I didn't have a chance to format the card as it was not my card and there were a bunch of digitial camera images stored on it that I didn't want to zap. I agree that as a common courtesy, Palm should release a FAT32 driver (beta/unsupported would be fine) for ALL OS 5.x devices. Or at least all of the ones running OS 5.2.x onwards. that aren't on the list. IIRC from older/earlier threads, the 2gb Sandisks are a bit easier for older Palms to stomach than the Ultra II high speed ones. RE: Can anyone comment
Does anyone have the read/write performance test results with and without the LifeDrive FAT32 drivers on various Palm devices? I would personaly be interested in the results of the LD FAT32 drive on a Treo 650 using a Lexar Media 32X 1 GB Secure Digital Card: Online Database of SD Card Benchmark Results Audacity Card Speed Testing Utility Version 1.2 VFSMark 1.0 RE: Can anyone comment
Hi. mstur indicates that he (or she) is using a 2GB on a T|T3 however unless I've misssed something, I don't see how mstur has arrived at this point (a special [auto] Format under PocketTunes). hkklife indicates using a 2GB card with a T5. But the T5's on Palm's approved list, meaning I believe that its version of the OS contains a FAT32 (and not FAT [16]) driver. I have a T3 and bought a 2 GB card from Dell before I'd ever heard of this problem. The T3 of course is not supposed to be supported. I initially put the card into the T3 - "do you want to format". Click OK. Then "card not recognized". Hmmph. Looked around the Web and learned of this problem/limitation. I don't have a working card at the moment, but that's because (as best I could determine) there were bad blocks on my first card and I'm waiting on an exchange. Although I did have it working, after a fashion (and with FAT not FAT32) previously. FAT has 16 bit pointers. That means it can point to 65,536 _objects_ (not necessarily bytes). It finally occured to me that in fact SD cards may be addressing (at the first level) clusters and not bytes. 2^16 (pointers) * 32K cluster size (2^15) = 2 GB. You don't seem to be able to get at varying cluster sizes on an SD card from the Windows File Explorer's Format (right-clicking on the card). It gives you only 'default allocation size'. I have XP Pro (don't know if this is available in 'plain' XP or ME or whatever). On XP Pro, if you go into Computer Mgmt | Disk Mgmt, you can indicate both FAT (as opposed to FAT32) and you have a choice of cluster sizes up to 64K. 32K will waste less space than 64K and adds up exactly to 2 GB (per the above). So I reformatted in this fashion and when I stuck the card in my T3, no complaint and it recognized it as containing something like 1.89 GB (which if one uses the equation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabyte seems OK to me). Copied over 450 MB from my old 512 MB card (using a card reader). Then tried transferring a copy of Wikipedia (one file) at 1 GB. Failed several times. Then I remembered. In the Format dialog, I'd clicked 'Quick Format' which, I guessed didn't check for bad blocks (clusters). So let's do the format again and do it right, checking for bad blocks. Every format failed. Sometimes they just aborted; other times they would format half the card and then return seemingly indicating success. Came to the conclusion that my method was probably OK but this was an early 2GB card (bought last April) and given the high infant mortality of next-gen capacities, I probably had some bad memory. Called Dell and they agreed to do an exchange (even though I was well out of the 30 days or whatever). I'll get a new card back from Dell; will go through my procedure; and I imagine it'll work. But would be curious to see what others get using the above. pat RE: Can anyone comment
Pat, I'm curious on your follow-up with your replacement 2GB card; once reformatted to FAT/32K cluster, did it read/write properly? I have a 4 GB card I'd like to use, and your method (external formatting of card vice altering PDA's OS) is by far the most appealing I've seen posted. -Mark RE: Can anyone commentkchristensen516 @ 1/3/2008 11:47:59 PM #
Just tried this with my 2GB Sandisk card. The Tungsten T3 can read files from it, but it can't write files to it. Anyone have a fix for this?
FAT32 Driver
The only way to get 2gb cards working on the PDAs listed aren't working is to use the FAT32 driver from the LD. To get it to work you must do a couple of things.
RE: FAT32 Driver
Thanks Frenchie; and others. I have been using a T3 with a 2Gig card, mainly fine, but found some issues. I am not sure if this hack has 'taken' or not. It hasn't solved all of my issues yet though... Specifically having trouble syncing SplashPhoto. Al RE: FAT32 Driver
I have a Zire 72 I am trying to use with an Adata 4 GB Sd card. The Zire will not read it as I expected. Since it won't read it a all, how can I get the fat32 patch installed on the Zire? Can I do it throught sychronization with the desktop computer it is hooked to? If so how, if not, how can I get this 4GB card to work in it? Thanks Treo 650 Zire 72 Tungsten T5 RE: FAT32 DriverEnduracell @ 1/16/2006 9:22:51 AM #
Hi there,
I'm having trouble trying to follow Frenchies instructions as I'm trying a 2GB card to work on my Palm Tungsten T2. My palm can read the card size but not format it or read any information that I can get on it (although I can't hotsync stuff to it either). I'm a Palm beginner coz I managed copy the file onto my card via a SD card reader/writer but then I don't seem to be able to do anything else with it (file z???)? I don't have access to the files and I do think I managed to hotsync the driver into the ram but again can't get into it - am I doing something wrong or am I just an idiot?? Thanking you in advance for your help. RE: FAT32 Driver - simplified instructions:The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/16/2006 4:34:39 PM #
1. Copy it to your SD card.
2. Put in the card and open up FileZ [a freeware file manager program you need to install onto your Palm. http://www.freewarepalm.com/utilities/filez.shtml] 3. Copy the FAT32 driver into the RAM. 4. Change the Creator and Type IDs to match the FATFS.PRC . [Open up FileZ. Chose "View and Edit Files". Tap the arrow beside "Internal". Scroll down to the file called "FATFS". Tap on it and then tap on the "details" button. Under the "General" tab find the CASE SENSITIVE! Creator and Type IDs for this file. Write them down. Then find the FAT32 file using FileZ in the same way and change the Creator and Type IDs to match what you wrote down.] 6. Viola you know have a working FAT32 sdio slot. Format your 4gb SD card and your Palm should read it. If you don't understand these instructions, don't mess around with your Palm with FileZ - you might end up fcuking things up. I.M. The Palm eCONomy = Communism™ The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038 NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823 RE: FAT32 Driver
I have tried these instructions on my T5 and when I reset it locks up. I must hard reset to get my T5 working again.
Any suggestions? RE: FAT32 Driver - Palm's (non)support is inexcusable.The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/21/2006 4:53:38 PM #
Your BEST solution is to sell your T5 and buy a CLIE TH55. If you can't get the T5 working with the above instructions, I'm afraid I can't help you. (I assume you've already installed Palm's T5 bugfix?)
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™ The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038 NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823 RE: FAT32 Driverlolovanves @ 1/31/2006 12:19:31 PM #
on my T3, I did everything to install FAT32 driver, when I format on my PC a 1GB card with FAT it works, when I format on PC with FAT32 the Palm ask me to format, I say OK, I got a window "format" which never close!
Please help me RE: FAT32 Driver
The instructions that you provided for copying the fat32 to ram, would this also work with Tungten e2 to utilize 2gb SD card? RE: FAT32 Driverlolovanves @ 4/24/2006 6:45:41 PM #
On T3 I can read a 2GB Sandisk SD card but I can't write on it. I can load the card via PC card reader with music, photos and ebooks but backup, Tomtom don't work. Does the FAT Livedrive patch allow writing on the 2GB card in the T3? RE: FAT32 Driver
I tried following your instructions with my Treo 650. After resetting, it just went into an endless reset loop. I couldnt' stop it with a soft or a system reset. I had to do a hard reset and restore from backup! Did I do something wrong or is it just "the luck of the draw" if the FAT32.PRC works with Treo 650? RE: FAT32 Driver
I followed your instructions and nothing happened. Now I've changed the version ID of the new FATFS +1 higher than the original so this one will load after a reboot and not the original. Now my device is not responing anymore. I've send the mail below to Palm but didn't get an answer yet. Is there anybody who knows what I can do? You help is appreciated very much. Thanks, regards, Hanne Unfortunately my device does not boot anymore. The screen constantly displays screen with the 'Palm Powered" logo with a 2/3 pixel black horizontal line blinking in the top of the screen all the time. My T5 does not respond to any buttons or screen touches, neither can I turn it off. Soft resets don't work, a hard reset results in the T5 rebooting. At first I get a white screen with the red-yellow PalmOne logo, the black status bar in the bottom of the screen loads completly after which I get into the formerly described grey screen again. RE: FAT32 Driver
^^ It sounds like your ROM is corrupted. Which basically means you're screwed. Sorry man. If you can find a way to access the T5 bootloader you may be able to fix it (provided you can find a copy of a standard T5 ROM), but I'm a Treo boy so couldn't tell you where to find such information. RE: FAT32 DriverThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/6/2006 10:18:46 PM #
Try doing one of the following: 1) Reset your PDA while pressing the PAGE UP button. Then delete the new file + install the old driver. or 2) Remove the PDA's battery + leave it out overnight. Put the battery back in and see what happens.
RE: FAT32 Driver
Voice of Reason Concerning your simplified instructions. You say to rename the FAT32.PRC to FATFS.PRC. Using FileZ, the extensions are not shown. When I look at the FATFS.PRC file, the name appears FATFS. Should I type the full name "FATFS.PRC" in the name of the FAT32.PRC file? Do I need to delete the original FATFS.PRC file? Thank you RE: FAT32 Driver
At last I found a post related to my T5 symptom, icebeah what happened with yours? Is there any chance to bring to life again? I got the same black blinking line at the top of the screen and no boot after all. RE: FAT32 Driver
I tried these instructions in a Tungsten E2, and it does not work (i.e. doesn't read my 2 GB card). Someone please indicate if it is necessary to delete the old FATFS file from the ROM or not?!? Has anyone else ever tried this for an E2? Have any suggestions?!? I'm dying to get some memory on this thing.... RE: FAT32 Driver
I have done everything exactly as indicated with a Tungsten E2. I copied the FAT32 to the SD card. I opoened fileZ, Moved FAT32.PRC to the ROM. Changed the type and creator to match the FATFS.prc I renamed the FAT32 to FATFS and reset. The Tungsten E2 still will not recognize that anycard is inserted. I tried to delete the original FATFS file but the Palm wouldn't let me ????? any help greatly appreciated
RE: Imagine a 2GB Flash RAM Treo
Also imagine a 4gb (2x 2gb) flash LifeDrive with all of the bugs worked out and smaller/thinner/faster/better battery life than the current one! RE: Imagine a 2GB Flash RAM Treo
Gekko; I am imagining it all the time. Personally speaking, after having my T5 adn enjoying the copious RAM, the 32 in my 600 seems a bit weak. I'd like a GB internally split just like the T5 does it (but with a larger amount of heap space for the larger websites. mobileministrymagazine.com antoinerjwright.com RE: Imagine a 2GB Flash RAM Treo
Definitely a ditto here about larger heap. I get "out of memory" errors more often on my T5 than I used to on my T3 when web browsing. You'd think a Treo-especially when they get around to adding EVDO support-would really be the beneficiary of larger amount of heap. RE: Imagine a 2GB Flash RAM Treo
I use ZLauncher to move may applications and their corresponding databases onto the card. I try and keep about 10MB free on the Treo's RAM, and I have plenty of applications installed. Enough for my needs at least. Sure is a lot better than my original Tungsten|T's 8MB of RAM. So I guess it all depends on what you get use to and where you are coming from. I did buy a 1GB card right away, so I would also appreciate an option to purchase 'onboard' memory at the original time of purchase. I also do not tend to swap cards, ever. In fact, the case (skin) that I am using covers the card slot. RE: Imagine a 2GB Flash RAM Treo
Huh? The original T|T had 16mb installed with something like 14.2 available to the user. RE: Imagine a 2GB Flash RAM Treo
You are correct, I am mistaken, I have 13.7M free of 14MB (post a hard reset and erase of all data), indicating 16MB of RAM. It has been a while since I used my T|T.
two questions:
1. where to get the file fat32 ? 2. 2GB card is marked as Sandisk Card II, ata or something, what does this mean ? thank you !! RE: two questions:
1. The link is here http://www.palmpowerups.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=2 Scroll down to find the file. 2. Sandisk 2gb cards may have the ultra highspeed and normal speed cards. A palm does not take advantage of the extra speeds in the ultra models. So don't be fooled into buying it. RE: two questions:MonkeyMike @ 9/6/2005 2:16:19 AM #
Damn, I bought one for my Z 72... oh well, at least it's big... -- http://arpx.net/docs/top_10_palmos_applications - my top 10 palm apps. RE: two questions:
I have noticed a difference in my digital camera (Canon Digital Rebel XT). Is the I/O of my digital camera more sophisticated than on my Tungsten 650? I have also noticed that my digital camera can accept FAT32 formated cards, and my Treo 650 cannot.
FAT drive waste space?
I have noticed that my Treo 650 will only accept FAT as the file system for the card. From what I can remember of FAT drives, as the size of the drive increases, you loose a larger and larger percentage of wasted 'space' due to the way that the sector size:
Freeing disk space before enlarging a FAT partition Cutting the Slack
Tungsten E
"It also shows that 1GB SD and MMC cards work with the Tungsten E2, T3, T2, T, Zire 71, 31, 21 and previous devices."... So.... I see the 71.... the elderly T... the weakling 31 and 21. What about the E? Is it covered under "previous devices"? I was considering a 1GB card soon... it would suck if I can't use one. RE: Tungsten E
Considering the E was launched alongside the T3 (fall '03) and has roughly similar specs to the Zire 71 w/o the camera and a slightly newer OS...I'd wager that it (and the T|C) falls into the 1gb and below category. Also, anyone notice the support for 1.5gb cards has been removed? Those oddball cards seem to have mostly disappeared from the market anyway, as 2gb cards are becoming easier to find. Why is the Zire 21 listed? It doesn't have an SD slot! RE: Tungsten E
Yes you can use a 1GB SD card with the TE. I have one and it is working with a FAT and FAT32 file system(with the hacked driver of course). The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p RE: Tungsten EJonAcheson @ 9/7/2005 9:45:58 AM #
I've been using a SanDisk 1GB SD card with my Tungsten E. No problems, it just worked without any changes. Makes an OK MP3 player. "All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled." RE: Tungsten E and 2 Gig
Has anyone else tried a 2 gig in a Tungsten E. I bought a SanDisk Ultra II 2 Gig for my T3 but after a long investigation it does not work. The problem is well discussed, it can read from the card fine but it can not write to the card or format it. During my investigation, I borrowed a friends TE (not a TE2) and the 2 gig worked fine. I could read and write to the card as well as format it. I know this TE was bought shortly before the TE2 was released if that might influence what OS version was on it. I will attempt to borrow it again if someone can tell me what usefule information I can get off it (like OS version, etc.) RE: Tungsten E
I have tried to use a Sandisk 2gb SD card with my Tungsten E2 and the device does not recognize it. Frenchie had some instuctions for copying the FAT32 driver onto the ram of other Palms to gain higher capacity. I wonder if that would work with a Tungsten E2. I am afraid to try without knowing that it will work as it might damage the system.
Tungsten C works fine with SanDisk 1GBDr Opinion @ 9/6/2005 7:12:25 PM #
No issues at all. Been working for months. The cards worked out of the box. :) ------ "People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination." RE: Tungsten C works fine with SanDisk 1GBDr Opinion @ 9/7/2005 8:39:27 PM #
They were formatted as FAT out of the box. I wouldn't mess with reformatting if I were you: I've had mixed results with formatting SD cards over they years. By the way, the 1GB SanDisk cards work great for watching movies with TCPMP... just wish I had a larger screen for widescreen mode... gonna get the LD for just that. I want the HD for my docs, and I'll run movies off the SD to save power. RE: Tungsten C works fine with SanDisk 1GB
Give 2nd thought to that LD purchase until: A. There's a comprehensive patch that's certified to fix most of its glaring issues Too many caveats currently for me to recommend it as a T|C replacement just *yet* (note the emphasis on YET). A patch IS supposedly in the works but won't be available until year's end or early '06. RE: Tungsten C works fine with SanDisk 1GBDr Opinion @ 9/8/2005 7:23:55 AM #
I've posted another thread asking about upgrade issues. If you've got some specific issues documented please post them there!
I've heard plenty of FUD but nothing concrete...! :)
We need OFFICIAL FAT32 drivers!!The Turtle @ 9/13/2005 3:26:30 PM #
Why can't palm make an official driver for these older models??
Still waiting for Cobalt...Garnet 5.99999999999999999999999 will not cut it in 2006.
The True reason why Treo 650 can not use FAT32vixensjlin @ 1/7/2006 1:35:13 AM #
I am just wondering, why patched FAT32 driver does not work on Treo650. Two possible reasons:
1. NVFS 2. SDIO 1.0 and 1.1 The first one can not be true, since TX also support FAT32 and it use NVFS as well. So can sombody please tell me if its due to SDIO limitation? should we copy a SDIO/FAT32 patch from TX?
Backing up Device Operating System
As a novice in editing my device operating system, I have a Tungsten e2, I was wondering if there is a way to back up the device OS so that if I screw up I can revert to a saved backup? RE: Backing up Device Operating System
Resco Backup is a good option to backup/restore on an SD card: RE: Backing up Device Operating SystemAdamaDBrown @ 3/11/2006 3:36:18 PM #
You really only need to backup your customized settings and whatever programs you install. The actual OS is in protected flash memory, so it can't really be altered. One hard-reset would restore the device to brand new status.
Fat32 Device for a Tungsten e2
Frenchie on a earlier post provided instructions for loading a fat32 driver on a Tungsten T3 to enable that unit to access larger capacity SD cards. I have a Tungsten E2 and I have a 2gb card that is not recognized by my unit. My questions is will Frenchies procedure enable me to use that 2GB card on my unit? If not is there any other way of editing the OS to enable me to use that card? RE: Fat32 Device for a Tungsten e2AdamaDBrown @ 3/12/2006 2:26:04 PM #
I would tend to doubt it. FAT32 only applies to 4 GB and larger volumes. 2 GB should fall within the existing capacity of the E2. The fact that the 2 GB card doesn't work suggests to me that either the E2 doesn't support it, or the card isn't quite standard, or both. I can't tell you for sure, though. RE: Fat32 Device for a Tungsten e2
My SD card is standard and should work if the E2's OS supports a 2GB card. Palm one in their FAGs indicates that the limit of an E2 is 1GB so apparently this would preclude the card from working unless their is a firmware or other type of fix that can be made. Unfortunately Palmone when contacted would not provide me with any any indication that a upgrade will be coming out in the near future. With their primary focus on selling Treos it is doubtful that a fix will be forthcoming for other Palm models. It would seem that other software developers would be interested in developing a firmware fix as it would be very saleable. RE: Fat32 Device for a Tungsten e2
There's a support/knowledgebase document on the Palm support site that lists the Palm models that ccan handle a 2gb SD card.
IIRC, the Zire 72, Treo 650, T5, TX and LD take 2gb cards with no issues. The TX & LD can actually take a 4gb SD card due to their standard FAT32 driver. I *THINK* the E2, T3, and all earlier models have a 1gb SD card size limit for all practical purposes. In theory, they will work n a 1.5gb SD card but those are rarer than hen's teeth.
What about 2GB on T|T2?
I read your comments. Has anyone tried using 2GB on Tungsten T2? Most comments are for T3 or E2 or other handhelds, I wonder if anyone is using 2GB on their T2 (what card? any issues?) RE: What about 2GB on T|T2?
AFAIK 1gb is the limit for all of the Tungsten models prior to, and including the T3. Well, actually, 1.5gb SD cards (yes they do exist but are extremely rare) would be the absolute limit for these devices. For all practical purposes however, it's 1gb. Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P RE: What about 2GB on T|T2?
Yes, I have seen the page on palm website about the 1 Gb limit but I have read people using Fat32 cracks to use 2GB and more on their Tungstens. I wonder if anyone has tried any such hacks on T2 and made it work?
4GB card working (read-only) with Tungsten T3
I just bought a Transcend 4 GB card (TS4GSD150) and tried using the hacked driver on my T3. Whenever I inserted the card, I would get the error "Unable to write FSInfo" and have to soft-reset.
Then I found this thread on 1src (http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=942515):
This works perfectly. I can now access the whole card on the T3! Read-only, of course, but I was already using a USB card writer since it's so much faster than HotSync.
Doesn't work on my Tungsten Cmattchapin @ 9/16/2006 5:33:09 PM #
Tried the following on my Tungsten C:
1. Just putting in a 2gb SD card Oh well, it was a fun little experiment. :-) Matt
Giga Bytes on the Palm ...
Hello there)!
About memory, i would say that it never is to much) What I can say about the large SD units, is that my brother brought a MicroSD of 2 GB to his Motorola Phone, and i could read and write the card on my Palm Tungsten T with the adapter of course! The SDHC probably will not work 'cause the electric interface is diferent than the SD(IO) as SD organization says; but once the Palm as a SDIO it's only limited to the address capacity of the controller!
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The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958