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Comments on: PalmSource Sale Won't Affect Licensees

A representative for ACCESS recently told News.com that the company's acquisition of PalmSource would not have an immediate impact on the Palm OS or any of the licensees. The company also says work will continue on Palm Linux and that Cobalt may still see a release.
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Access: You can trust us™.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 5:32:43 PM # Q
How many times has it happened where the management changes in your favorite restaurant and they promise everything will be the same? Only it just never seems to work out that way...

While NetFrontLinux has the potential to be a killer platform, after enduring YEARS of empty Cobalt promises, I'll believe it when I see it.


http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111922


At this point, it's looking like with hacked-up, kludgy Garnet being a lame duck OS and PalmLinux/NetFrontLinux being at least 2 years away, Windows Mobile has just been given the market share outright and will consolidate their position in the coming months. "Just wait." seems to be the sad refrain from the PalmSource Apologists. Guess what? We're tired of waiting. This train ain't coming, Bubba.



TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 5:54:29 PM # Q
How many times has it happened where the management changes in your favorite restaurant and they promise everything will be the same [but it doesn't] work out that way?

At least as often as the management changing and everything being better.

Still, I have my concerns. Not that Access can't be trusted or that they are stating intentions that are more wishful than known-deliverable: I expect they've done plenty of due diligence and more than likely know that they won't gain anything from not being straight about things like this. My concern is whether the business cultures, development cultures, and "culture" cultures of the two companies will be able to merge successfully and that the attempt to integrate them won't be pushed too fast. Difficulties in integrating disparate cultures is the kind of thing that kills many a merger that looked good on paper because it's an effect that's hard to quantify in advance.

As a people, the Japanese tend to have a stronger sense of "us" (Japanese) and "them" (foreigners) than Americans do. In business this often means that if you're not Japanese you're not going to be around in a leadership role for any longer than absolutely necessary. Not that you don't expect leadership changes in the target company after an acquisition, or even that I have some strong opinion that PalmSource has the best people at the helm now (although I definitely think they're better than what we've seen in recent years). But I'm concerned that Access could try to change too many horses mid-race and create more confusion and distraction than the important development effort underway can sustain.

I'd be interested to know more about the US division of Access that I believe PSI is actually merging with and know some things like:

- How culturally open are they?
- How similar is the composition of the company as far as the proportion of management vs. engineers?
- How many of the Access engineers here in the US are the ones who have actually worked closely with Palm and PalmSource in the past?

One good thing: the fact that mobile systems design is a new business for Access and that they are continuing (or perhaps even ramping up) their own browser development makes it less likely that there will be a lot of redundancy at the engineering level that would produce big rounds of layoffs or distracting turf wars.

So far, it seems like the statements Access is making are designed to signal investors that Access understands the need to be as non-disruptive as possible at this critical juncture. That's going to be hard, but the very fact that they are saying these things and realizing that this would be a concern of investors is a good sign, IMO. That understanding isn't in itself sufficient to make the merger successful, but it's absolutely necessary.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
AdamaDBrown @ 9/12/2005 6:01:47 PM # Q
How many times has it happened where the management changes in your favorite restaurant and they promise everything will be the same? Only it just never seems to work out that way...

While that's true, we can still hope. Some amount of change could be a good thing, cleaning out some of the people who are just useless. I doubt that the acquisition will really change anything about Cobalt, but it may help actually bring about a new OS eventually, rather than a Cobalt redux.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 6:09:26 PM # Q

Well, Ive learned some interesting information from out belligerent Access Engineers.

1) NVFS is being dropped.
2) Cobalt type processes are being dropped.

This implies to me that less than I thought is being carried over to POL. Its a whole new platform (like styletap on WM) and I wish them the best of luck. The less mistakes the carry over from POS 5/6, the better.

Surur

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
AdamaDBrown @ 9/12/2005 6:17:26 PM # Q
Is it flash storage that's being dropped, or just the implementation? After all, flash storage is actually a very good idea, if it's implemented right. It just got buggered up the first time.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 6:30:27 PM # Q
1) NVFS is being dropped.
2) Cobalt type processes are being dropped.

Linux does the file system differently and I'm pretty sure that includes non-volatile file systems. And Linux does multi-tasking differently in terms of how processes are created to handle background threads. None of this is the result of the acquisition, it is a result of the decision by PalmSource to move to Linux last December.

Incidently, for all the griping here about how background threads in Cobalt share a single process and therefore isn't "true" multitasking, there actually is a pretty reasonable justification for this approach and it's not at all clear to me that the Linux way is the better way.

[Note: the following is a paraphrase of stuff that Dianne Hackborn has explained elsewhere] Basically the difference between multithreading in Linux and Cobalt is a trade-off between robustness and performance. Multitasking with ARM Linux (or Windows Mobile for that matter) involves more of a performance hit than in Cobalt because Linux's model of creating a separate process for every thread (including background threads) prevents it from using a much faster method of context-switching (juggling threads) that is used by the Cobalt kernel.

On the other hand, as has rightly been noted, running multiple backgound threads in a single process does mean that if one thread crashes the process it takes the others down. It does not take the main (launched) application down--it has its own process--and it wouldn't even take down a legacy application that was launched since PACE also has its own process. But if you were trying to do multiple things in the background like downloading a document from the Internet and playing an MP3 while reading your email in the "foreground" it would be possible for a problem in the MP3 player to terminate your download. I'm not sure how often people would want to do two background tasks while performing a third in the foreground, but this limitation could occur in that circumstance. In exchange for the performance hit, Linux avoids this scenario since every thread has its own process.

System development, like almost anything else in the world, is an exercise in making good compromises with limited device resources. So the question is, what do you care about most? Do you want to be sure that when you multitask three or more applications simultaneously there's no chance of a bug in one of them crashing any of the others? Or would you rather have your download proceed speedily even though you're listening to an MP3 while it happens? Or maybe have a device that doesn't require such a hot processor to provide good multitasking performance and therefore has longer battery life?

The fact that the Cobalt engineers chose to spend a bit of robustness to buy some better performance is a sign that they are lazy or bad engineers. Good engineers embrace tradeoffs like this and seek to find the compromise that delivers the best overall user experience. A lot of times its a judgment call.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 6:31:02 PM # Q

They are sticking with flash, but dropping the NVFS implementation. The are moving to a traditional Linux flash-optimized file-system. I wonder if they will also implement a proper file system also (directories etc). I would think the Linux subsystems would be expecting it, so I'm sure they will implement it.

Surur

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
neuron @ 9/12/2005 6:50:32 PM # Q
NVFS doesn't serve any good so far, but act like a buildin disk. Using Resco explorer, it's even treated as buildin disk A. If they remove NVFS, it won't do an bad to POS. Treo 650 can be faster if they don't use NVFS.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
hkklife @ 9/12/2005 6:54:56 PM # Q
EVERYTHING can be faster if they remove NVFS.

Let's REALLY hope for a standard, at least moderately robust, out-of-the-box-ready backup app as part of the *OS*.

I'd wager that a proper file system and subsequent app associations to handle those files would be a no-brainer as well.

Surur, did you did up any additional tidbits past what you've already posted?

Cobalt-type process being dropped=no chance of revisiting Cobalt in any way, shape, or form as well?



RE: Access: You can trust us™.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 6:59:21 PM # Q

Nothing else really (except that PSRC engineers want you to pay to know their road map). This is all about POS on Linux, not Cobalt. With POL about two years away, its not impossible that they will release and interim OS such as cobalt. I think with every OS change however they lose some more developers and a whole lot of legacy apps. POL will be nothing like POS 5 internally, and probably even the UI will be different.

Surur

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 7:18:44 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
its not impossible that they will release and interim OS such as cobalt.

I'm not sure if you meant that they'll release another version of Cobalt (1.2, for example) or if you are just being loose with your words and meaning to say "release Cobalt devices."

If you meant the latter, it's not only not impossible, but I've been assured as recently as a six weeks ago by PalmSource that multiple Cobalt devices are in the works. You can believe that this is a lie, but you can't deny that it's been publicly stated recently and with full acknowledgement about how much the earlier promises of Cobalt devices have come back to burn them, by the way.

I must say, I find the statements that Access has an interest in looking at Cobalt to be... surprising. In my case that's not a technical dis against Cobalt (too early to say much about it); I just hope we can keep our eye on the Linux ball right now.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 7:35:10 PM # Q
I wrote:
The fact that the Cobalt engineers chose to spend a bit of robustness to buy some better performance is a sign that they are lazy or bad engineers. Good engineers embrace tradeoffs like this and seek to find the compromise that delivers the best overall user experience. A lot of times its a judgment call.

Obviously, from the context of what I wrote that should have been "The fact that the Cobalt engineers chose to spend a bit of robustness to buy some better performance is not a sign that they are lazy or bad engineers."

Sigh.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 7:52:27 PM # Q

By release I mean drop POS 5 and push POS 6. How many platforms can they really support concurrently?

I think if there is one thing thats clear, its that over the years optimizations for performance at the expense of robustness always comes back to bite you in the future. I'm sure as a software engineer you can think of many many examples.

Surur

GSPDA Cobalt Phone
Admin @ 9/12/2005 7:53:38 PM # Q
GSPDA did state at the PalmSource DevCon this year that they promised a Cobalt Smartphone for the US market by the fourth quarter.

-Ryan

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
neuron @ 9/12/2005 7:56:52 PM # Q
GSPDA is too small company to promise anything. Cobalt may be appeared, but considering the upcoming Plinux is only one or two years away, it won't be widely used. It may not be survived longer than developers fixing their softwares compatiability problem.

But who knows. Garnet should be retired two years ago.

Beersy: Tell everyone how bad that OSWIN Cobalt phone was
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 8:02:22 PM # Q
Be honest, Beersy. We both know that thing was a piece of steaming feces.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Voice-Of-Dumness is paid by m$ to write this cr4p
Dr Opinion @ 9/12/2005 8:16:50 PM # Q
Be quiet, shill. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Access: You can trust us™.
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 10:15:41 PM # Q
> They are moving to a traditional Linux flash-optimized file-
> system.

Half correct. The flash file systems are flash-optimized. They're not 'traditional'.

> I wonder if they will also implement a proper file system
> also (directories etc).

Yes.

You don't have to wonder, though. The file systems we're using are available as open source. You can even compile them yourself and see how they currently perform.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 10:19:05 PM # Q
> I'd wager that a proper file system and subsequent app
> associations to handle those files would be a no-brainer as
> well.

Proper file system is a no brainer. Backup app is a different kettle of fish. I have no idea what the licensees or carriers will want to do in that area.

> Surur, did you did up any additional tidbits past what you've
> already posted?

He's just citing me and Lefty from another thread. And we're just quoting stuff that was made known at DevCon. I also gave the names of the file systems that we plan to use fo the different kinds of flash.

> Cobalt-type process being dropped=no chance of revisiting
> Cobalt in any way, shape, or form as well?

The process thing is sort of a red herring. Processes aren't being dropped, so much as applications are each getting their own process -- It is Linux, after all.

Applications that were multithreaded before will still be multithreaded. But there's no magic way to make singlethreaded applications magically be multithreaded. That's up to the application writer.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
AdamaDBrown @ 9/13/2005 3:55:43 AM # Q
David Beers said:
I've been assured as recently as a six weeks ago by PalmSource that multiple Cobalt devices are in the works.

Ow. My eyes just rolled all the way up into my head, and I can now see my brain. Good thing I'm a touch typist.

Actually, as insane as this sounds, particularly given the history of these kinds of statements, there exists a small possibility of there being a kernel of truth involved here, maybe. Over the last few months, I've been hearing reports about a Treo running Cobalt. Unlike the WM version, there have been no photos, but the information has even been coming from people I would consider reliable.

While I'm hedging my bets, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this fall brought us two new Treos, running Windows Mobile 5 and Cobalt on nearly identical hardware.

Ryan said:
GSPDA did state at the PalmSource DevCon this year that they promised a Cobalt Smartphone for the US market by the fourth quarter.

As I recall, wasn't GSPDA having trouble getting a carrier in the US to pick up their phones? I know that they originally had scheduled some Q3 releases of the M68 and M98 family that didn't pan out.

D. O., if all you're not going to contribute any actual information or discussion to the thread, as opposed to launching unprovoked personal attacks on others, would you mind being silent?

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
LiveFaith @ 9/13/2005 11:12:10 AM # Q
LG has already shown a prototype that definitely looks like Cobalt. No way it's PL yet. Not sure if it has a sliding keyboard (aka i730) or not, but the OS is for sure.

http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/lg600i.jpg

Cingular has already spilled the beans on the Samsung i733 too, so it's already passed the carrier barrier. That is going to be one sweet Cobalt phone if it is like the WM version already out.

http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/samsungi733.JPG

This is going to be an exciting year! :-)

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/14/2005 12:18:37 AM # Q
I've been assured as recently as a six weeks ago by PalmSource that multiple Cobalt devices are in the works.

Beersy, that was believable in 2003; acceptable in 2004; but just plain laughable in September, 2005. How long do you think people are going to fall for that dog and pony Cobalt act? It's amlost embarassing hearing people like you talk about Cobalt as if it any manufacturer would be stupid enough to release a device with it installed.

Here's an idea: until a Cobalt device is actually RELEASED in the U.S., how about we all accept that Cobalt was an utter failure that has already been thrown into the dumpster behind PalmSource HQ and will never - I repeat NEVER - be seen on anything other than that piece of feces Oswin Cobalt phone. Deal? Good.

And while you're at it, please stop trying to give Ryan advice on how to run his site. People like you (and just_little_me, and RhinoSteve, etc) should be rounded up and severely ****** up the ***. Repeatedly.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
spit @ 9/14/2005 1:59:53 AM # Q
From a user perspective, I don't care what file system POL uses but I what I would like to see is POL to be able to run TextMaker for Zaurus.

I'm fed up with the current Palm word processors out there all of which provide single click syncs only for Windows PC users running MS Word on desktop.

TextMaker running on POL would reshape the general thinking of other Palm word processor developers for not having the courage to bundle their own desktop word processor so we don't have to cough up another several hundred bucks for MS Office after we purchase a Palm.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 9:17:25 AM # Q
People like you (and just_little_me, and RhinoSteve, etc) should be rounded up and severely ****** up the ***. Repeatedly.

Keep it up, TVoR! Ryan's the one you are hurting, not me. And he's the one who puts the roof over your head here.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 9:20:56 AM # Q
TextMaker running on POL would reshape the general thinking of other Palm word processor developers for not having the courage to bundle their own desktop word processor so we don't have to cough up another several hundred bucks for MS Office after we purchase a Palm.

Interesting idea. What I'd love to see is for PalmSource to build a deeply extensible plug-in API into Palm Desktop and then open the source. As an Eclipse fanatic I would love to see it built on the Eclipse framework, but I realize that asking people to install a Java environment is probably impractical. Still, if you know about Eclipse that gives you the general idea: create a radically open platform for people to add plugins like word processors and email clients so 3rd party developers can be as active on the desktop side as they have been on the handheld.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
spit @ 9/14/2005 9:41:43 AM # Q
Palm building a deeply extensible plug-in API into Palm Desktop would be great. They should even consider going further by open sourcing and releasing Palm Desktop under GPL. Why not? Palmsource gives away Palm Desktop for free already.

This would really tend to stimulate it's uptake into various open source projects such like OpenOffice. Mr. Softy couldn't follow suit because he wouldn't even consider open sourcing Outlook, and no one in the open source community trusts him any way.

It would also be a great way for Palm to enter the Linux forums with a bang and stimulate developer support for POL.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 10:47:30 AM # Q
It would also be a great way for Palm to enter the Linux forums with a bang and stimulate developer support for POL.

Exactly, open source the whole Palm Desktop. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/14/2005 9:24:01 PM # Q
>>>People like you (and just_little_me, and RhinoSteve, etc)
>>>should be rounded up and severely kissed up the arm. Repeatedly.

Keep it up, TVoR! Ryan's the one you are hurting, not me. And he's the one who puts the roof over your head here.


I wonder why the words "kissed" and "arm" were censored. Odd.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
spit @ 9/14/2005 11:33:54 PM # Q
I concur with you David. Check out this news article from today:

http://www.ictworld.co.za/EditorialEdit.asp?EditorialID=24361

'Open source community embracing Novell's openSuSE project'

Had Palmsource’s BOD made the right decisions, this could easily have read “Open source community embracing Palmsource’s openPalmDesktop project and POL”.

Palmsource / Access needs to realize that open source developers are not stupid. If you scratch their back, then they will scratch yours. You can’t have a one way deal and just show up at the Linux party expecting a warm open armed embrace.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
PenguinPowered @ 9/14/2005 11:51:01 PM # Q
Well, given that our technical representative (that's me, for now) to the open source community has been involved in open source projects since long before they were called "open source", I'd bet that we are aware of what it takes to interact effectively with that community.

OpenSuSE, by the way, is a "me too" response to Fedora Core.

As I've mentioned here already, we're involved in the open source community and fully expect to have to earn our credibility with that group. We're active in Yaffs, Omap730 support, and Eclipse, and have several other open source projects ramping up.

Neither RedHat nor Novell are in the same position we're in, with respect to business models. They sell to end users, while we sell to licensees who adopt and adapt, for instance. They make their money off of supporting those users, and enterprise users will pay well for support. We're not an end user support company, end user support is our licensees business. As far as open source business models are concerned, we're closer to Nokia's. I wish we were at a point where we had something like their relationship with Scratchbox and Maemo, but there's only so much you can do with a small team (WRT open source, that would be, again, me, for now) in six months.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
spit @ 9/15/2005 2:08:51 AM # Q
Neither RedHat nor Novell are in the same position we're in, with respect to business models. They sell to end users, while we sell to licensees who adopt and adapt, for instance. They make their money off of supporting those users, and enterprise users will pay well for support. We're not an end user support company, end user support is our licensees business.

Hi Marty,

All you say is no doubt true. But who owns and develops Palm Desktop? It’s you guys. Not the licensees. You can’t expect them to do the job of promoting extensibility of Palm Desktop with the open source community. Only you can do that.

And doing so promotes genuine interest from the open source community in future development of Palm Desktop and extension of its conduits into open source projects like OpenOffice, K Office, Chandler, etc.

This, in turn, creates better products for us end users than can be found with competing products like PPC and this drives your licensee’s revenues over those of PPC licensees and this should also be your goal as an operating system vendor.

Working with Eclipse, etc. is fine but why not accelerate the process to a running start by open sourcing Palm Desktop? As David pointed out, you have nothing to lose but potentially everything to gain.

Quote from the OpenSuSE article:

... The community is also directly contributing to the openSuSE.org wiki, creating more than 100 additional Web pages and almost doubling the site's content since its launch.

Increasingly, questions are being asked and answered by this community, fostering a dialogue that will help improve the quality of both the project and the distribution. ...

By open sourcing Palm Desktop, you not provide a focus for open source community to rapidly build on, but it may also reduce your own overhead expenses for support costs as the open source crowd are often eager to answer questions about their projects to users who run into problems.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
spit @ 9/15/2005 2:13:32 AM # Q
may also reduce your own overhead expenses for support costs as the open source crowd are often eager to answer questions about their projects to users who run into problems.

Sorry, I was referring to support costs to POL developers, not end users.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
spit @ 9/15/2005 2:17:23 AM # Q
Sorry, I was referring to support costs to POL developers, not end users.

Of course, open sourcing Palm Desktop would also likely result in lower support costs to your licensees who deal with end users.

Although it doesn't reflect directly on your bottom line, it does trickle down to you eventually.

If one company marketing PPC devices ends up with higher support costs than another marketing POL devices, then this impacts eventually on your platforms competitiveness.

Your licensees could then focus more on development and marketing and be more willing to pay higher licensing fees in the future.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
PenguinPowered @ 9/15/2005 2:42:03 AM # Q
Why we don't open PalmDesktop is an interesting question.

Unfortunately, I'm a Linux Lizard, and don't have any visibility into what the thinking on that is.

I do know that we have some other potential open source projects that we haven't yet decided on, simply because the decision makers have been busy with other things.

I will ask what plans we have with regard to opening PalmDesktop and share whatever answer I can.

Personally, I see you point, and would agree that it is something we should do unless there's a very significant reason not to.

But when it comes to stuff "above the line", ie, outside of the kernel and core utilities, I have about as much influence as you do on corporate decision making.

Some comments, in general, but interacting with the open source community. There is much potential value in doing so, but it does not come without a cost. If nothing else, it takes time to audit your own sources and make sure you hold clear title to them so that you can release them under an open source license.

A good example from my area is that if we have an SDIO driver for PalmOS, there's no way I can convert it to Linux and release it, because it is encumbered by other people's licenses.

A less obvious one, but very important in my area is that when we work closely with a licensee on an implementation on their device, they will hold title to any drivers or kernel modifications for that device; so I can't release that code, even if they will eventually do so. It's theirs, and they release or not on their schedule.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
spit @ 9/15/2005 3:15:20 AM # Q
Some comments, in general, but interacting with the open source community. There is much potential value in doing so, but it does not come without a cost. If nothing else, it takes time to audit your own sources and make sure you hold clear title to them so that you can release them under an open source license.

A good example from my area is that if we have an SDIO driver for PalmOS, there's no way I can convert it to Linux and release it, because it is encumbered by other people's licenses.

A less obvious one, but very important in my area is that when we work closely with a licensee on an implementation on their device, they will hold title to any drivers or kernel modifications for that device; so I can't release that code, even if they will eventually do so. It's theirs, and they release or not on their schedule.

I see your points here. Perhaps this is also why Sun decided to release OpenOffice.org in parallel with, rather than as a replacement for StarOffice.

Yet OpenOffice.org has taken on a life of its own as you know, especially with small businesses and government offices who are placing more emphasis now on open source products to improve cost efficiency.

Perhaps a similar parallel release of OpenPalmDesktop.org alongside Palmsource's own closed edition would allow users to pick which product best suits their needs.

For example, some users may prefer a version of OpenPalmDesktop.org that's integrated with OpenOffice or one that intefaces with Chandler or K-Office, while others may choose to stick with Palmsource's own Desktop that comes with the CD in the box.

Having a variety of desktop solutions for your products like this would likely be a *major* consideration when users try and decide between POL devices and PPC & other competitors.

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/15/2005 4:21:10 AM # Q
I see your points here. Perhaps this is also why Sun decided to release OpenOffice.org in parallel with, rather than as a replacement for StarOffice.

Yet OpenOffice.org has taken on a life of its own as you know, especially with small businesses and government offices who are placing more emphasis now on open source products to improve cost efficiency.

Perhaps a similar parallel release of OpenPalmDesktop.org alongside Palmsource's own closed edition would allow users to pick which product best suits their needs.

For example, some users may prefer a version of OpenPalmDesktop.org that's integrated with OpenOffice or one that intefaces with Chandler or K-Office, while others may choose to stick with Palmsource's own Desktop that comes with the CD in the box.

Having a variety of desktop solutions for your products like this would likely be a *major* consideration when users try and decide between POL devices and PPC & other competitors.


Here's a better idea: PalmSource focuses their limited energy on quickly creating + releasing the best possible next-generation mobile OS and leaves extraneous bits to 3rd party developers.

The average Joe either uses Outlook or is satisfied with the current Palm Desktop. Wasting precious resources reinventing the wheel (especially when IntelliSync, PocketMirror and The Missing Sync could be licensed and the rest left up to individual users) makes no sense.

PalmSource needs to learn how to PRIORITIZE. Be engineers don't know the meaning of the word. Your suggestionsare not practical for a company with limited resources and a very tight time schedule.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/15/2005 8:56:39 AM # Q
PenguinPowered wrote:
I will ask what plans we have with regard to opening PalmDesktop and share whatever answer I can.

Thank you for inquiring about this, Marty. I'm very interested. Do you happen to know who at PalmSource would be the best person to channel Palm Desktop questions/suggestions?

Understand that I think we all realize that you guys are probably pretty focused on device software right now rather than the desktop. That's as it should be. But if a process was put in place to start auditing and opening the Palm Desktop and HotSync code, even just a piece at a time, I think this would be seen with considerable enthusiasm by the developer community. Certainly this member of the developer community!

Since PalmSource is getting increasingly focused on wireless devices and users are seeing their Palm devices less as PC accessories and more as free-standing mobile computers that might never get synced with a desktop, I'm guessing that there are internal discussions about how much bandwidth PalmSource should be dedicating to the desktop software. It seems to me that the best argument for opening Palm Desktop is the same reasoning that led PalmSource to go to an open source kernel: you have limited resources and need to deploy them toward the things that make the biggest difference for the platform. Palm Desktop is important to many people but probably shouldn't be seen as part of your core development effort when the open source developer community could lift a lot of that responsibility off your shoulders.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
cervezas @ 9/15/2005 9:37:20 AM # Q
One more thought on Palm Desktop:

Wouldn't it be nice (for PalmSource, not just for users) if Palm Desktop could be ported to a cross-platform native GUI toolkit like wxWindows? And there was was only one code base to maintain that would support Windows, Mac OS X, Linux variants, etc? (Ok, the "one code base" thing is probably an exaggeration, but you could probably get close, right?)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
PenguinPowered @ 9/15/2005 9:46:56 PM # Q
I checked this afternoon, and my first guess is correct. We've made no decision one way or another about open-sourcing Palm Desktop. I have no idea when it might filter up through the pipeline to that review.

I'm sorry, I don't know who is responsible for Palm Desktop.

The problem with a parallel "OpenDesktop" along side Palm Desktop is that someone would have to write it, and we just don't have the resources now.

Marty


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Access: You can trust us™.
spit @ 9/15/2005 11:24:24 PM # Q
The problem with a parallel "OpenDesktop" along side Palm Desktop is that someone would have to write it, and we just don't have the resources now.

Is there really a need to write a parallel OpenDesktop if you word the licensing so that it can be resold similar to OpenOffice’s terms?

Essentially, you could just release Palm Desktop as is and then continue on in your own merry way (as Sun did with StarOffice) while the open source community takes over in their own directions from that point on.

Reply to this comment

Both?

arp @ 9/12/2005 6:13:25 PM # Q
I see the point of doing one of those, but both? Way to fragment the platform.

What they need is a clear path ahead of them, not "hey Mr Licensee, you can choose one of these two, we can't guarantee which one will be used in a year."

Go with Palm(GNU)Linux.

--
http://www.arpx.net/article.php/top_10_palmos_applications - my top 10 palm apps

Reply to this comment

Conspiracy of Fools

Gekko @ 9/12/2005 6:18:22 PM # Q

If these clowns Fouts and Schlesinger (and Nagel) are representative of the "talent" at PSRC, then the death spiral we have witnessed over the last few years is not surprising.

It's business, not personal.



RE: Conspiracy of Fools
just_little_me @ 9/12/2005 6:37:26 PM # Q
On topic, as always...


JLM.

Alternate Book Title
Gekko @ 9/12/2005 7:06:03 PM # Q

"Pipe Dreams: Greed, Ego, and the Death of PalmSource"



RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 7:37:25 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:
If these clowns Fouts and Schlesinger (and Nagel) are representative of the "talent" at PSRC, then the death spiral we have witnessed over the last few years is not surprising.

You must not have known too many ubergeek software developers, Gekko. (I don't know why you think Nagel is a "clown"--he seems like the driest most pulse-less person I've met over there.)

In any case, I couldn't disagree more about Fouts, Schlesinger and Hackborn. I'm very happy to see some people with enough passion for their work that they care to spend some of their free time on a forum like this. Especially given the level of rudeness they have to put up with here. The fact that some of them can play the PIC sparring games better than the local trolls is bonus entertainment value.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
Gekko @ 9/12/2005 7:53:22 PM # Q

>You must not have known too many ubergeek software developers, Gekko.

you're right about that - I run in different circles. (Thank God).



RE: Conspiracy of Fools
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 7:57:20 PM # Q
The fact that some of them can play the PIC sparring games better than the local trolls is bonus entertainment value.

Is that what they call it? I thought they were just trying to make themselves look unprofessional. These threads will come back to bite them in a few years.

Surur


PalmSource Corner needs a Cutman + Ring Doctor. STAT!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 8:11:44 PM # Q

Check the scorecards, Beersy - I think you're watching a different match. Last I heard, Mr. Fouts was being carried off unconscious on a stretcher after receiving around 100 vicious, undefended blows to the head. While Mr. Schlesinger has a little potential as an amateur flyweight, he will get destroyed if he really wants to go toe to toe with the big, bad heavyweight "local trolls". (By the way, does anyone know if they ever found "RhinoSteve's" body?) Ms. Hackborn has earned street cred here by virtue of her technical knowledge, dual X chromosomes, raw brawling ability, enthusiasm and Timex-style ("Takes a licking... but keeps on ticking") personality.

Out of respect for Ms. Hackborn, I'm bowing out of these discussions for now. I would also suggest Marty & David talk to Ryan about possibly deleting some comments that might not be looked on too favorably by an acquiring company interested in projecting a professional image to businesses. Seriously, guys.


Au revoir, mes amis. A bientôt



TVoR
Undefeated, undisputed heavyweight champion
1999 - 2005

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
Dr Opinion @ 9/12/2005 8:19:42 PM # Q
Geeko wrote:

> "[Smart people?] I run in different circles"

Like, duh. Enough said. :)

sr4 wrote:

"[Pro-Palm/Source employees make PICs m$-shills look dumb?] Is that what they call it?"

Yes. Suffice to say that you guys don't come over too... smart. Chuckle. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 8:27:06 PM # Q
The difference is that we don't have to deliver a product in two years or lose our jobs, not to mention convince people like us that we are worth supporting.

How many POS developers read these threads and decide to stop wasting their time on an OS developed by people acting like immature clowns? At this critical time they should be more professional and more open, not skulking around and demanding people pay to hear about the file system for POL.

But D.O., your fanboyism is impenetrable. I congratulate you on that achievement at least. You would be a perfect addition to 1src.com.

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
Dr Opinion @ 9/12/2005 9:07:32 PM # Q
> "The difference is that we don't have to deliver a product in two years or lose our jobs..."

The kid's right! A good shill is always in demand. :)

Of course wince will be discontinued in the next 18 months or so. Wince developers will have learned those buggy, ever-changing APIs for nothing, and m$ will be hawking "XP Mobile" as the new "answer" to PalmLinux. :)

> "...not to mention convince people like us that we are worth supporting."

I'm not quite sure how comp works in the shill business, but I have a suspicion that unless you hit the necessary quota of FUD comments you most *certainly* might find yourself "not worth supporting" by a certain monopolist. :)


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 9:10:33 PM # Q
The difference is that we don't have to deliver a product in two years or lose our jobs, not to mention convince people like us that we are worth supporting.

Now you're starting to sound like Gekko, Surer. Don't be so self-important! Anyone who looks around here can see in a moment that PIC is a playground not a place to do business. Half of the people here behave as if they were raised (and educated) by a family of wolves, and no one of note is being "convinced" of anything. Very few people here support PalmSource in the first place and most of the ones who do aren't going to change that view because of anything anyone writes here.

How many POS developers read these threads and decide to stop wasting their time on an OS developed by people acting like immature clowns? At this critical time they should be more professional and more open, not skulking around and demanding people pay to hear about the file system for POL.

Huh, maybe I missed some posts. Some of these threads get awfully long and I don't have time to read it all. But I can say this: anyone who has been a programmer for much of his life knows that most of his/her fellow programmers--especially for some reason the frighteningly good ones--are just plain weird and rarely inclined to give a damn what anyone thinks of them.

But D.O., your fanboyism is impenetrable. I congratulate you on that achievement at least. You would be a perfect addition to 1src.com.

Who's D.O.? If you're talking about me, then yeah, I happen to like the few people I know at PalmSource, I'm a Palm OS enthusiast from way back, and I don't check my brain at the door and bleet about the "death of the Palm OS" just to fit in with the rest of the sheep here. If that makes me a "fanboy" then so be it. But I find it a little pathetic that a smart guy like you feels he needs to stoop to namecalling when he is a perfectly capable debater.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 10:11:44 PM # Q
> Is it flash storage that's being dropped, or just the
> implementation? After all, flash storage is actually a very
> good idea, if it's implemented right.

Nothing is being "dropped". NVFS is being _replaced_.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 10:27:58 PM # Q
> At this critical time they should be more professional and
> more open, not skulking around and demanding people pay to
> hear about the file system for POL.

No one made such a demand.

Just the opposite, in fact. The file system work has been described in enough detail for a competent interested party to not only understand it, but examine the source code for themselves.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 11:04:43 PM # Q
Surur scribbles, ...not to mention convince people like us that we are worth supporting.

****surei shimasu, but weren't you the guy who was pretty much flat out accusing me of everything from "profiteering" to having defrauded the entire investment community...?

Yeah, that was you!

See? http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111912

It's unclear to me that anyone, I least of all, could convince you of much of anything under these circumstances. 'Splaina me this.

Now, as far as professionalism goes, the very folks you have such difficulties with here interact, with the highest degree of professionalism, on a variety of Linux mailing lists, in various open source organizations, etc. It's a two-way street, see? Honi soit qui mal y pense, as they say.

How many POS developers read these threads and decide to stop wasting their time on an OS developed by people acting like immature clowns?

I dunno. Two?

How many POS developers read these threads and decide to stop wasting their time on an OS that folks like you and the now-departed nameless mouth swear is going to be deader 'n Dickens any second now?

The same two, probably. I guess I'll chance it. Actually, it's okay, I know 'em both, and they'll be back.

Questions about file systems were answered quite clearly; I answered your question about processes (in spite of your never having actually worked out how to ask it); we cleared up the touchscreen controversy without much ado (although I seem to recall that responses are generally met with an "Oh, yeah?" which somewhat diminishes our enthusiasm for bothering.)

There's general information on our open source plans on the web site (but no indication you've looked at any of it—you could've answered that file system question for yourself). Given your desire to be persuaded to support us in our extra-"profiteering" activities, that might be a reasonable place to start.

Once again, if you manage to start behaving reasonably, you'll probably be treated more reasonably. Don't rant about me "fleecing" people and then whimper that I'm not being "professional" enough for you. You can't have it both ways.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

David Schlesinger from PSRC
sr4 @ 9/13/2005 2:26:23 AM # Q
David (lefty)Schlesinger, AKA Stonemirror , there is a big difference here. I'm reasonably anonymous, and you are not. I do not even work in IT in any case. My words may be of interest to no-one, but yours are of major interest to many. This is why you should behave professionally DESPITE supposed provocation, not act childishly because of it. This is a very public forum, not some IRC chatroom. I'm amazed that you do not understand this.

Regarding answering my questions, why did we have to go through pages and pages of tit-for-tat when you could have answered with one line right at the start? I know you feel you do not owe me an answer, but was it worth looking so bad just to avoid giving one?

This thread will now show up prominently in search engines if some-one googles you. I hope you think your limited enjoyment was worth how childish it makes you look.

Surur


Martin (Marty) Fouts from PSRC
sr4 @ 9/13/2005 2:40:35 AM # Q

BTW, D.O. = Dr Opinion of course. Wasnt it obvious?

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
PenguinPowered @ 9/13/2005 3:24:14 AM # Q
Um, Surur? About that "prominently"? Right now, it's not showing up on Google at all, for either "Martin" or "Marty" Fouts. In fact, none of the bandying about of my name on PIC is showing up on google until page 3, at the moment.

You're going to have to do a much better job of spaming google if you want this thread to show up "prominently" on search engines.

Not that I'm concerned. No one in this business worth working for cares at all if linux lizards poke at trolls in their spare time.

HTH HAND

oohlong


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
sr4 @ 9/13/2005 3:54:33 AM # Q
Got you looking ;)

Yes, it was page 3. Now with your name in a link I expect it to go up. Also Marty Fouts PalmSource is the third site on page 1.

I hope your new masters at Access are as understanding as you think.

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
stonemirror @ 9/13/2005 9:24:05 AM # Q
Gee, that's awfully impressive, Surur. I'm just awfully taken with the fashion in which you and the Mouth went out of your collective ways to post our names (and web site URLs, too!) all over the place, and particularly the care with which you ensured that they'd turn up on Google.

It clearly demonstrates that you've got nothing to offer to the discussion on any meaningful basis. It clearly shows that you're a coward, as well, Mr. Relatively Anonymous. Having failed to make any points using your head, you thought you'd just go straight to attempted intimidation and blackmail. Nice.

Lemme clue you in to something: I've been doing this sort of thing for going-on two decades. I have never been let go or been laid off in all that time (including a decade at Apple). People hire me more for my skill set and accomplishments, less for my sparkling personality. Your going to extra-special efforts to attempt to (hopefully) damage my career shows pretty clearly what you're all about.

I'd say you're entirely mistaken about who's looking childish here. Do you always get this petulant when you don't get your way?

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
font size="-2">Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

Mr D. Schesinger ( PalmSource) - Act your age!
sr4 @ 9/13/2005 9:58:47 AM # Q

May I remind you this is a public forum, you represent a $300 million dollar company, you are quite senior and their whole survival depends on YOU personally actually delivering (on your linux promise).

The only thing I want from you is to act appropriate to your responsibility and status. You work at PalmSource, and if you are to post here I would expect insightful and informative information, not vacilation and insults.

I hope your future responses take the above into account.

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
twrock @ 9/13/2005 10:39:23 AM # Q
David (lefty)Schlesinger, AKA Stonemirror , there is a big difference here. I'm reasonably anonymous, and you are not. I do not even work in IT in any case. My words may be of interest to no-one, but yours are of major interest to many. This is why you should behave professionally DESPITE supposed provocation, not act childishly because of it.

Surur, your getting as bad as TVOR. What is it with you guys trying to set "rules" for everyone else's behavior? Take a look in the mirror. I take it you got over that "feeling" you had about some of your early posts.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8002#111118

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

Cutting the Gordian Knot
stonemirror @ 9/13/2005 10:41:02 AM # Q
Okay, fine, have it your way then.

Here's a completely professional response you can use in the future, should any questions come to mind:

We cannot comment on unreleased products or projects in progress beyond the statements made on PalmSource's web site or through our Public Relations or Product Marketing departments. I suggest you take any questions you might have to them.

I'll advise the folks around here of this. Sayonara!

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

Sayonara David Schlesinger ( PalmSource )
sr4 @ 9/13/2005 11:06:45 AM # Q

That IS much more professional, and maybe you should have said that a lot more often.

twrock: Pompous people who by rights should be a whole lot more humble really get on my nerves. I believe Mr David Schlesinger AKA Stonemirror only came here to entertain himself, instead of contributing or even being informative, despite having ALL the answers to the questions we are all asking e.g. will the serious limitations of POS 5/6 be carried over, or will POL be a much much better OS. If they came here to do a Q&A they would have recieved a better reception, but to come only to goad people is unforgivable, especially some-one in their positions.

If this is the way they treat their end users or potential end users I can see why their company lost 50% of its value from two years ago.

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
hackbod @ 9/13/2005 12:45:56 PM # Q
"I believe Mr David Schlesinger AKA Stonemirror only came here to entertain himself, instead of contributing or even being informative"

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can assure you that my original intention (and later much misguided re-attempts) in posting here was to provided information. However:

"If they came here to do a Q&A they would have recieved a better reception, but to come only to goad people is unforgivable, especially some-one in their positions."

This is complete bull****. Due entirely to the local fauna growing in this cesspool, it is completely impossible to have any kind of discussion here of actual information. Any information introduced here, to make it conform to the particular fantasy world of certain individuals, will either be (a) studiously ignored; (b) completely misrepresented; or (c) blown completely out of proportion.

In this kind of environment, why should anyone be expected to spend their valuable spare time trying to contribute something useful? Every time I have tried, I have very quickly regretted it. And even if you have the best of intentions, there is no way but to address some of the more vocal people here with derision, because it quickly becomes clear that is all they desire.

Finally, hey Mr. Voice:

"Ms. Hackborn has earned street cred here by virtue of her technical knowledge, dual X chromosomes, raw brawling ability, enthusiasm and Timex-style ("Takes a licking... but keeps on ticking") personality."

Yes, it is largely you who I am talking about. I don't follow these forums much any more, so I don't know what Surur or others are like; it is largely because of you that I have no desire to stick around here.

Saying stuff like the above and then "out of respect for Ms. Hackborn", when you have and continue to personally insult, deride, ignore, and attempt to "out" me, is completely transparent. If we are going to talk about trolls, you are way up at the top of the list. And if anyone wants to complain about people not being informative, you are the first one to look at. "Raw brawling ability", "Takes a licking... but keeps on ticking", "Undefeated, undisputed heavyweight champion"... oh yeah, now -there- is a way to get informative discussions to flourish.

So Voice, and others of your ilk: feel free to continue wallowing in your filth here, you certainly seem to enjoy it. But don't complain if others don't want to clean it up. I may occasionally post here (just a little reminder that the Voice's fantasy world has little to do with reality), but I am long done trying to participate.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Software Frameworks Engineer

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
PenguinPowered @ 9/13/2005 12:51:03 PM # Q
> Pompous people who by rights should be a whole lot more
> humble really get on my nerves

How do you deal with spending so much time getting on your own nerves?

> If this is the way they treat their end users or potential
> end users

You are getting to be a lot like Skippy the flying none, Surur. I think it's hillarious that you pick a thread in which you've been mouthing off like a teenager living in its parents basement while I've calmly and politely answered all of the questions I am professionally allowed to answer as the one you decided to spam google with.

All because you're jealous that Lefty's much more entertaining than either you or Skippy.

By the way, repeating our names over and over again is not going to spam google. Not that I'd expect you to be able to do anything better.

You want to be treated with respect? Than act like someone who deserves to be treated with respect.

HTH. HAND.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
sr4 @ 9/13/2005 1:17:55 PM # Q

Marty, its business hours. Haven't you got work to do?

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
Obelix @ 9/13/2005 1:22:48 PM # Q
I prefer Palm Source is in Japanese hands than in american hands.



--------------------------------------
Psion5 -> PalmV -> Filofax -> iPAQ5450 (stolen after 2 month) -> Clié SJ22 -> iPAQ2210 -> TungstenE -> Tungsten T3 (broken) -> Zire 21 & Clié TJ-35

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
Ronin @ 9/13/2005 2:34:12 PM # Q
Over the years that I have been visiting PIC there have been a number of prominent people (or if you prefer people "in the know") in the Palm community that have taken the time to post on this site. On each occasion, I thought that this was a good thing, that it added to the dialogue and diminished some of the FUD floating around at the time. Also, I thought that these visits helped distinguish PIC from other palm enthusiast sites, as I have not seen this occur elsewhere.

However, each and every time, the persistent trolls that insist on posting to this site with a great deal more vigor than anyone else, always chase them away with rudeness, immaturity and denigrating comments. It is truly unfortunate that the persistent and extremely vocal few continue to pollute the discussions.

My suggestion, ignore the trolls!

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

You get what you pay for
cervezas @ 9/13/2005 2:49:28 PM # Q
Can this be any clearer, people? (I'm including Ryan, pointedly)

If you like having PalmSource employees offering informed perspectives or information that you don't find elsewhere, then it's very simple:

(a) don't respond to informative posts with childish personal attacks.

(b) shun (or moderate, Ryan) those who do.

If you prefer to have PalmSource employees come in just to poke fun and make TVoR jump up and down, then just keep up what you're doing now. It's working great.

The choice is yours.

Ryan, I know you occasionally delete posts that go over the top, but your idea of where the "top" is makes no sense at all to me. I would think purely from the standpoint of financial incentive you would reap the rewards of permanently banning the worst offenders. The quality of the content here and the number of readers would be *substantially* increased if you just laid down a few ground rules and enforced them.

VERY few people with any kind of expertise or serious analysis to offer bother to contribute to a forum that's like an asylum run by the inmates. Hungry for interesting commentary or news scoops, people end up having to eat the s*** that TVoR dishes out--or go elsewhere, which is where a lot of your income is going right now, I can tell you.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

ATTN: Dianne Hackborn (For your eyes only)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/13/2005 11:00:14 PM # Q
"I believe Mr David Schlesinger AKA Stonemirror only came here to entertain himself, instead of contributing or even being informative"

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can assure you that my original intention (and later much misguided re-attempts) in posting here was to provided information.

And your contributions here have been appreciated, DK. The abuse you received was regrettable. But let's move on, shall we?

However:

"If they came here to do a Q&A they would have recieved a better reception, but to come only to goad people is unforgivable, especially some-one in their positions."

This is complete bull****. Due entirely to the local fauna growing in this cesspool, it is completely impossible to have any kind of discussion here of actual information. Any information introduced here, to make it conform to the particular fantasy world of certain individuals, will either be (a) studiously ignored; (b) completely misrepresented; or (c) blown completely out of proportion.

Nonsense, DK. If you have information to provide, simply provide it, without any SPIN whatsoever. But when you defend Cobalt as vociferously as you have over the past year despite knowing all along what a piece of steaming feces it is, it is absurd for you to expect power users to sit there and swallow your B.S. like helpless little birds waiting to be fed. A few months ago I asked you a VERY simple question about what Cobalt could do IN PRACTICE and you turned and ran. Rather than trying to obfuscate a-la-Marty, why not try a little honesty instead?

In this kind of environment, why should anyone be expected to spend their valuable spare time trying to contribute something useful? Every time I have tried, I have very quickly regretted it. And even if you have the best of intentions, there is no way but to address some of the more vocal people here with derision, because it quickly becomes clear that is all they desire.

The "vocal people" do not desire derision. Only to be treated with RESPECT. Like living, breathing human beings, [sniff] with hopes [sniff], and feelings [sniff] and dreams [sniff], and Bwahahahaha! Get serious.

Finally, hey Mr. Voice:

Mr.? Guess again.

"Ms. Hackborn has earned street cred here by virtue of her technical knowledge, dual X chromosomes, raw brawling ability, enthusiasm and Timex-style ("Takes a licking... but keeps on ticking") personality."

Yes, it is largely you who I am talking about. I don't follow these forums much any more, so I don't know what Surur or others are like; it is largely because of you that I have no desire to stick around here.

I'm truly sorry to hear you blame me for running you out of Palminfocenter. If I leave, will you come back and promise to post something interesting here every day, DK? I will leave here immediately if you promise to answer questions here daily for the next year. Honestly.

Saying stuff like the above and then "out of respect for Ms. Hackborn", when you have and continue to personally insult, deride, ignore, and attempt to "out" me, is completely transparent. If we are going to talk about trolls, you are way up at the top of the list. And if anyone wants to complain about people not being informative, you are the first one to look at. "Raw brawling ability", "Takes a licking... but keeps on ticking", "Undefeated, undisputed heavyweight champion"... oh yeah, now -there- is a way to get informative discussions to flourish.

Bull. I probably post more honest (referenced) information and pithy analysis than anyone else here. Look at my record and compare it to the BS and SPIN posts made here over the years by Pal/PalmSource staff. Sappho please. And I thought you had a sense of humor, DK. What happened to it? And how does one "out" someone who is already "out"? In my neck of the woods (SF), we don't really care what part of the rainbow (spectrum) you choose to live under. Grow up, Girlfriend. Your self-importance level needs to be turned down a bit (from 11).

So Voice, and others of your ilk: feel free to continue wallowing in your filth here, you certainly seem to enjoy it. But don't complain if others don't want to clean it up. I may occasionally post here (just a little reminder that the Voice's fantasy world has little to do with reality), but I am long done trying to participate.

--
Dianne
PalmSource Software Frameworks Engineer

"... wallowing in your filth here..."??? W T F? Are you for REAL? Marty got exactly what he deserved for behaving like an a-hole. David at least has a sense of humor and took this all tongue firmly in cheek, so I cut him some slack. You, on the other hand... Wow.

I'm still in shock at your little rant, DK. I expect an apology, Young Lady.



TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Beersy: special message just for you...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/14/2005 12:02:55 AM # Q
Go **** yourself. Seriously.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Beersy, special message for you
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 1:17:58 AM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Go **** yourself. Seriously.

Aw. Touched a nerve? You can't defend your presence on this forum any better than that?

Of course you can't. Maybe it's time for you to say bye bye, then, Voice. I don't think a soul would miss you.

Shall I ask for a show of hands?



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Beersy
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/14/2005 4:17:11 AM # Q
Read what you posted here, Beersy. You come across as sounding like a petulant, bitter prig.

Can this be any clearer, people? (I'm including Ryan, pointedly)

So you're going to lecture/threaten Ryan? You ungrateful fop.

If you like having PalmSource employees offering informed perspectives or information that you don't find elsewhere, then it's very simple:

Last I checked, PalmSource's Marty Fouts was busy trolling more than even Ska did in her prime. In fact, I don't remember a single post from Mr. Fouts offering "informed perspectives or information that you don't find elsewhere". PalmSource's David S was also trolling, but at least does not take himself seriously. DK (PalmSource's Ms. Hackborn) seems to harbor some deep-seated hostility towards me. Perhaps a few Anger Management sessions are needed for Mistress Hackborn. PalmSource's Michael Mace was worse than a troll. He was a blatant SPIN doctor who never let a little thing called REALITY get in the way of his carefully planned misinformation "strategy". A few others from Palm/PalmSource have posted further misinformation/SPIN. I would "out" them as well, but at this point it's all academic...

(a) don't respond to informative posts with childish personal attacks.

Ms. Hackborn needs to learn this one.

(b) shun (or moderate, Ryan) those who do.

SHUN??? MODERATE??? How about something a tad less drastic:

If you prefer to have PalmSource employees come in just to poke fun and make TVoR jump up and down, then just keep up what you're doing now. It's working great.

Actually, I was the ringmaster.

The choice is yours.

Thanks for sharing, Beersy.

n, I know you occasionally delete posts that go over the top, but your idea of where the "top" is makes no sense at all to me. I would think purely from the standpoint of financial incentive you would reap the rewards of permanently banning the worst offenders. The quality of the content here and the number of readers would be *substantially* increased if you just laid down a few ground rules and enforced them.

Wow. So you're going to lecture Ryan AND threaten him with financial losses AND order him to ban posters AND promise him that agreeing to your suggestions will lead to both better posts and greater website traffic?

VERY few people with any kind of expertise or serious analysis to offer bother to contribute to a forum that's like an asylum run by the inmates. Hungry for interesting commentary or news scoops, people end up having to eat the s*** that TVoR dishes out--or go elsewhere, which is where a lot of your income is going right now, I can tell you.

You must have grown up eating a lot of sh**, since that's all you serve up, Beersy. And another threat about people leaving PIC served up with yet another financial threat ("go elsewhere, which is where a lot of your income is going right now, I can tell you.")?

Like I said, go **** yourself, Beersy. Really.



TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/14/2005 6:28:25 AM # Q
b) shun (or moderate, Ryan) those who do.

SHUN??? MODERATE??? How about something a tad less drastic:

Those who disagree with other posters should just IGNORE them. Just like how things work in real life. What a concept.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/14/2005 6:31:50 AM # Q
Ryan, I know you occasionally delete posts that go over the top, but your idea of where the "top" is makes no sense at all to me. I would think purely from the standpoint of financial incentive you would reap the rewards of permanently banning the worst offenders. The quality of the content here and the number of readers would be *substantially* increased if you just laid down a few ground rules and enforced them.


Wow. So you're going to lecture Ryan AND threaten him with financial losses AND order him to ban posters AND promise him that agreeing to your suggestions will lead to both better posts and greater website traffic?



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
twrock @ 9/14/2005 8:19:19 AM # Q
Weird. There's some kind of echo in here.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 8:50:56 AM # Q
TVoR wrote:
So you're going to lecture/threaten Ryan?

I get to lecture him, yeah. That's the price he pays for making a public forum and not banning *me* from it. ;) It's ok, I think he knows I have his best interests at heart.

As for threats, none made. I'm just pointing out that you and others like you cost him viewership and advertising money when you turn his forum for discussing Palm OS into a place where adults that are in-the-know (and not inclined toward masochism) decline to participate. I think he'd be surprised not just how much better it would *smell* here if he adoped a less supine editorial policy but how much more real content he'd get.

How about it, Ryan? Why don't you try cleaning this place up for a trial period of 3 months and see what happens to your revenue? If you do I will certainly help spread the word to readers and prospective contributors.

We can continue this conversation back-channel--I don't expect you to answer here, Ryan.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
Gekko @ 9/14/2005 9:55:21 AM # Q

it's funny that the apologists biitch about ryan/PIC, yet this is the site that they choose to spend SO much time posting to - even when they're are so many alternatives.

please let me direct you to some apologist-friendly, sugar-coated, rose-colored, "feel-good", heavy-handed-moderated sites if that's what you're looking for:

http://www.brighthand.com/

http://www.1src.com/

on these sites you will find very little disagreement, everyone is a fanboy, and palm is always #1 and can do no wrong. all others are deleted and/or banned. don't try to turn PIC into another one.

enjoy!



RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 10:54:01 AM # Q
it's funny that the apologists biitch about ryan/PIC, yet this is the site that they choose to spend SO much time posting to - even when they're are so many alternatives.

It's only funny if you view the world through the lens that everyone is either an apologist or a realist. My beef isn't with the opinions of anyone on here about Palm OS issues. I like debating with the doom-and-gloom crowd because I think they're often wrong and they're wrong for reasons I find interesting. My complaint is with all the adolescent shenanigans that you have to wade through before you get to some real discussion.

I also agree with the comments made earlier that PIC has more of a focus on the intersection between the business and the technical aspects of the Palm platform, which is somewhat unique.
That's why it's worth trying to salvage from the likes of TVoR.

Just because I think you're often wrong Gekko, doesn't mean I don't think you're by and large a good contributor. Same with Surer and most of the rest of the folks here when they are involved in relatively civil, intelligent discussion. So don't conflate my opinions about the Palm OS with my opinions about how PIC could be a more successful forum.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
sr4 @ 9/14/2005 11:06:35 AM # Q

Ive been around many Palm sites, and I find PalmInfocenter is the only site that discuss the big issues. The other sites are all about 1) helping people out (which is good) and b) talking Palm up.

e.g

PalmAddict - they are so sweet you teeth get rotten as soon as you load the page. This is the site of the review of the "fantastic" lifedrive, this gives you an indication of their objectivity. They also have cute pictures of cats on the home page. Very homey, but their forums are dead, and are devoid of discussions of the big issues.

Brighthand - again, people are just there to get their devices fixed and working, and very little discussion of issues.

1src.com - previously a clie site, they know already all about being abandoned by their maker, and seem mostly preoccupied with keeping their discontinued PDA's running. The recent addition of Jeff lived things up a bit, but due to his sycopanthic attitude towards all things Palm, there is very little room and stimulus for discussion. Look at the current thread from Jeff's latest editorial "what the purchase of PSRC by Access means". It has less that 20 responses. Jeff admits that he had to go out of his way to find something positive to say about it, and make that the topic of his editorial.

PalmInfocenter is the only site where the ACTUAL implications of news are discussed. The only problem is that for years now news regarding Palm and POS has been bad, so the talk of the implications have obviously been negative. The people who say otherwise are rightly derided for being out of touch with reality. They of course would prefer that a positive spin be put on very bit of news, as clearly they fear that a frank discussion of POS's future would hurt the OS. It may even be in part superstition.

Who knows,maybe David Beere is right, and being less truthfull and more positive will increase traffic, but at the same time there are plenty of other sites with that Modus Operand, and they seem pretty quiet.

Lastly, I think all POS engineers should be pelted with rotten fruit, as they have in major part let the side down. If POS had been growing dynamically and did not have funtional problems other people could be blamed, but clearly PSRC did not deliver on the next generation OS, which has been a major part of the loss of confidence in the platform. Hence I think they should actually publically apologize, instead of waltzing in and expect adoration. But of coure they have never, and will never admit they have made major mistakes, but you have to be sycopanthic not to take them to task for kiling the platform. Their latest news was actally very god, in that they are leaving behind man of the limitations of the old OS, and are doing thngs the 'linux way' which should speed development greatly. Yet they could not just come out and say it, but pefered to play games with everyone. If they want to behave that way they deserve to suffer the consequences.

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 11:12:11 AM # Q
Who knows,maybe David Beere is right, and being less truthfull and more positive will increase traffic

Gawd no, and that's not what I'm saying! My point is that personal attacks make it impossible for any reasonable discussion about what the truth *is.*

No one should be moderated for their opinion. That would kill PIC and my hat is off to Ryan for refraining from anything like this. Moderation (including bans when appropriate) should be reserved for people who try to stop real discussion by being abusive.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
hkklife @ 9/14/2005 11:18:07 AM # Q
PALMyanna==A rah-rah, see-no-evil Palm fanboy/girl. A PALM OS Pollyanna if you will. Palmyannas frequent the sites linked to by Gekko and are even occupying editorial positions in said sites. Lately they've taken to producing Podcasts and championing every action (or non-action as it might be) of the Palm companies as a "positive development" for the platform.

PIC is a refreshing "real world" site that's not cluttered with endless questions like "Please tell me where to get OS 5 on my Handspring Visor. I want listen MP3"

PIC also is refreshingly devoid of endlessly regurgitated editorial pieces on why a LifeDrive makes a "lovely" laptop replacement and why pictures of cats taken by Veo SDIO cameras deserve frontpage attention.

If anyone would care to venture into the PIC forums, you'd find a good amount (granted, not as many as Brighthand etc but a reasonable amount) of even-tempered, kindly worded posts helping the n00bs out and giving out advice. My post count is probably 1:1 forum to front of site. I am also grateful to Ryan for maintaining the spam-free PIC Marketplace, as I've unloaded several older/broken handhelds there over the past few years.

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 11:25:28 AM # Q
PalmInfocenter is the only site where the ACTUAL implications of news are discussed. The only problem is that for years now news regarding Palm and POS has been bad, so the talk of the implications have obviously been negative. The people who say otherwise are rightly derided for being out of touch with reality.

Dirision over opinions is cool. I'll deride right back and that's what makes it a good forum.

They of course would prefer that a positive spin be put on very bit of news, as clearly they fear that a frank discussion of POS's future would hurt the OS.

If you actually believe this, you're suffering from at least as much delusion as I am. PIC will be much more popular with anyone interested in the Palm OS if there is more, not less frank discussion. But how can there be discussion at all when the presentation of an argument is responded to mainly by rude comments about the poster's sexuality or suggestions that they be ****** up the ***? Is that the "truth" you're trying to preserve?

For now, if we get posts from PalmSource people (which are potentially very interesting) expect them to have the substance of most of the ones Lefty (stonemirror) made, because no one who actually has substance to share is going to waste their time. It would be so easy to fix this since the problem is really with just one or two people, and the rest of us could get on with debating the real issues.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
hkklife @ 9/14/2005 11:26:14 AM # Q
Oh, an addendum:

Kudos to everyone at PIC for (mostly) permitting free expression of opinion over "touchy" subjects like Graffiti 1 vs. Graffiti 2 vs. thumboard etc.

TVoR & I like G1, Gekko likes his thumboard, and everyone else is resigned to G2. For the record, I was attacked by Kirvin (on PIC) and by Ed (on Brighthand) for claiming G1 is still a more intuitive and faster method of input. Both advised me to "give it up" and "get over it". Hardly what I'd call helpful advice. Brighthand's more likely to give a gentle reply to "I want listen MP3s. Where is OS5 for Handspring Visor?" than to "Would anyone like to take a crack at porting the Graffiti 1 libraries to OS 5.4x devices? There's a jackpot waiting for the hardcore individual that can do it."

Also, just so it's plainly clear:

PALM INC. LINKS DIRECTLY TO THE BRIGHTHAND FORUMS FROM PALM.COM

That little tidbit is not directly mentioned on Brighthand--it just says that the "Palm" forums require separate registration.

Palm's "company" forums ARE the Brighthand forums. When I found that little morsel out, I pretty much stopped posting there completely. ESPECIALLY after I was raked over the coals by Ed & co. for giving a non sugar-coated review of my disheartening experiences over 4 weeks with two separate LifeDrives.

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 11:44:10 AM # Q
Palm's "company" forums ARE the Brighthand forums. When I found that little morsel out, I pretty much stopped posting there completely. ESPECIALLY after I was raked over the coals by Ed & co. for giving a non sugar-coated review of my disheartening experiences over 4 weeks with two separate LifeDrives.

I can understand not wanting to support a forum where you felt like the editors were in somebody's pocket. Although that would mainly be a concern if you felt the forum itself was being moderated to filter out certain opinions. I don't understand leaving a forum because people disagreed with you.

I don't think you want PIC to be a place where everyone holds hands and just pats you on the back for everything you say, hkklife. For one thing, if they were holding hands, what would they be patting your back with? :)



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
sr4 @ 9/14/2005 11:59:23 AM # Q

I agree that people's sexual proclivities are their own business, but sites like brighthand and 1src would intentionally not persue a disagreement as it would disturb the community spirit, without any mention of who's gay or not. They prefer a positive spirit and a "dont ask, dont tell" attitude to POS's future. Usually they label showing some-one as wrong as a personal attack. I guess I can see the logic, if you see holding and expousing uncritical views as a reflection either of naivity or duplicity. Makes it hard to get to the truth when people keep saying "cant we all just get along" and "everybody's right" however. Imagine if the courts or scientific world worked that way.

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
hkklife @ 9/14/2005 12:07:33 PM # Q
David;

Yes, I am a big boy and can certainly handle reasonably grounded, mature, FACTUALLY-based disagreements with my opinion. It was the insinuations (and even some outright accusations) on Brighthand AND PIC that my testing methodology was flawed. It was also stated that I didn't know what I was doing (Despite me prefacing my review with stating I am a ~9 year POS user..since the days of the Pilot 1000) and that I was deliberately installing "unstable" software in order to cause the LD to crash so that I could give it an unfavorable review.

Basically, certain individuals either angling for a job with one of the Palms or certain editorial staff already in the pocket of Palm did not like seeing the new flagship Mobile Manager being knocked for what amounts to p**s-poor quality control and design decisions. I could deal with the lag if it was a stable device. I could deal with SOME instabilities with certain apps if the thing was a monster performance & speed-wise, as long as the bundled apps work flawlessly. I cannot, however, accept a flagship device that's portly, laggy, unstable, overpriced, and a battery hog. And please, people, don't use a Maybach or S-class analogy here. The mobile computing world is different from the automotive world in certain areas. Moto's Razr is a proper flagship device and Palm desperately needs something like THAT. I'd rather have seen the LD development $ channeled into something super-sexy, sleek, thin, and stable with T3-level specs. That was my OPINION based on the FACTS from reviewing two separate LifeDrives back in June. Both were shot down and the validity of my findings questioned by the PALMYannas @ Brighthand & PIC.

(Of course no one paid any attention to the positive attrubutes of the LD that I thoroughly commented on: solid build quality, the sleek external design (thickness notwithstanding), quality hard buttons & d-pad, and the inclusion of the elusive combination of voice recorder/wi-fi/Bluetooth/charging LED etc.)

I think you're catching my drift now
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 4:11:41 PM # Q
So, hkklife, what you're saying is that when you presented a factual argument on the Brighthand forums and felt your views were rejected without regard to the merit of your facts or experience you decided to quit posting there.

Now imagine if not only was your review rejected as biased for no good reason, but they told you that you should be ****** up the *** for writing it. And then justified that crude non-response to your review by saying it's more "truthful."

Do you suppose that not just you, but other participants on that forum would (a) be reluctant to post frank opinions there, and (b) would stop visiting altogether if this kind of thing happened often?

Now, since you say you're a big boy I presume that had the Brighthand folks evaluated your review on its merits and respectfully disagreed with a lot of points based on arguably valid facts or logic (i.e. *they* behaved like big boys, too) you'd have felt differently and might still be participating there today, is that fair to say?

If so, you make my case for me. Now draw your own conclusions about what behavior like TVoR's coming multiple times a day on every PIC thread is doing to Ryan's site viewership. And yes, TVoR, I'm picking on you, but anyone who tries to stop a discussion they disagree with by using personal attacks or rude distractions instead of joining the discussion politely is going to lower the quality and quantity of participation on PIC or any other forum. I don't see a single reason for Ryan to allow this, so you?

Does anyone?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
tmp12 @ 9/14/2005 4:36:29 PM # Q
cervezas wrote:
> ...
> [TVoR] I don't think a soul would miss you.
> Shall I ask for a show of hands?

Are mere lurkers allowed to participate?
-Showing Hand-

I could easily do without the nasty bits of TVoR getting personal.
Beside that: Yes, I would miss him because of the kind and subjects of discussions he induces as well as provokes.

I don't care for rehashes of marketing blather.
I come here for information, insights, speculations, predictions and the occasional flashes of (supposed) truth behind.

Without TVoR and others keeping at certain issues I might have learned some explanations of technical concepts. Fine. Though, carrying PalmOS in my pocket since '97, I got used to the situation that there's more than that to be concerned about.

Gruß
Uwe

PS: Surur, thanks for pointing out the obvious with your posts above.

G1
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 4:54:52 PM # Q
By the way, hkklife, I'm totally with you on G1 being the best. It's one reason I have trouble parting with my old Samsung SPH i500.

One nice thing about the Protein API used in Cobalt and PalmOS for Linux is that it introduces this concept of "pinlets." The pinlet API enables 3rd party developers to make custom dynamic input areas and handwriting recognition engines that users can access from the status bar just like the normal dynamic Graffiti area.

http://tinyurl.com/az4lh

I fully expect that some developer will come up with their own G1 implementation that you can install yourself on the new Palm OS devices when they come out. We little developers don't have deep enough pockets for Xerox to care about us: my company's assets wouldn't be worth 10 minutes of their legal department's time.

Maybe input gurus like Jean and Emmanuel Ichbiah will come up with something even better and faster than G1 using the new API. I'm looking forward to seeing some creative ideas in this area.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
Ronin @ 9/14/2005 5:47:27 PM # Q
It seems to me that something intelligent can be added to the conversation by almost anyone. It also seems to me that problems arise when you start believing that you are absolutely right and anyone that does not agree with you is absolutely wrong or you have preconcieved notions as to what form exceptable disagreement may take. Further, personal attacks should never enter the discourse. For clarity, when I refer to a personal attacks, I do not mean criticism of one's analysis or conclusions but statements like "go **** yourself" or even the title of this particular thread (I have every confidence that the point could have been made without such hostility). Surprisingly, I would not miss that at all.

A comment above referred to Palm fanboy/apologist zeal that forecloses differing opinions, I do not think that zeal in and of itself is a bad thing, it is foreclosing of consideration and respecting differing opinions no matter the source, that is a bad thing.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 6:27:40 PM # Q
tmp12 wrote:
I could easily do without the nasty bits of TVoR getting personal.

Beside that: Yes, I would miss him because of the kind and subjects of discussions he induces as well as provokes.

Well said. I might miss him too *if* he'd just mind his manners, although that's so far an untested hypothesis! :) He sometimes digs up some good stuff (like the idea that an acquisition was afoot). And even when the stuff is, uh, ... delusional... it's still fodder for discussion when it isn't written so as to END discussion.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
PenguinPowered @ 9/14/2005 8:52:23 PM # Q
> Hence I think they should actually publically apologize,
> instead of waltzing in and expect adoration.

I'm not an engineer, but perhaps I'll do.

I'm heartily sorry that Linux wasn't ready for use in PalmOS before now.

I apologize for PalmSource not having the foresight to hire me before last November.

I regret having not been as entertaining as Lefty in my pulling of Skippy the flying none's chains.

> But of coure they have never, and will never admit they have
> made major mistakes,

I admit I have made major mistakes. I didn't sell my HP stock when it was at $150/share and am still holding it. I picked Dotcast over Google as a startup to work for in 2000. I treated Surur civily.

> but you have to be sycopanthic not to take them to task for
> kiling the platform.

Shouldn't you wait until its dead before you accuse someone of killing it?

> Their latest news was act[u]ally very go[o]d, in that they
> are leaving behind man[y] of the limitations of the old OS,
> and are doing th[i]ngs the 'linux way' which should speed
> development greatly.

That's nine month old news. Didn't you get the memo?

> Yet they could not just come out and say it, but pefered to
> play games with everyone.

Which press release, DevCon demo, interview, Web site discussion, or entry on PalmSource's web site did you miss?

Nobody played games with "everyone" Surur. Lefty smacked you and Skippy the flying none around for your attitude, but even I provided straight information on all of that, at all times.

> If they want to behave that way they deserve to suffer the
> consequences.

I'm rather enjoying the consequences of having demonstrated how flawed Skippy the flying none's "logic" was, at pointing out how little "inside" information he really had, at watching him wildly changing his position and _still_ being wrong about who bought PalmSource, and of having you try to spam google with a thread in which I've been nothing but polite and professional while you've behaved like a teenager living in its parent's bedroom.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Apology accepted
sr4 @ 9/15/2005 2:28:48 AM # Q
I'm heartily sorry that Linux wasn't ready for use in PalmOS before now.

I apologize for PalmSource not having the foresight to hire me before last November.

I accept your apology, and hope it informs your future attitude. Hopefully everyone else will be as generous.

Now only a few hundred more people in your company (maybe a press release will be easier?)

Surur



RE: Conspiracy of Fools
PenguinPowered @ 9/15/2005 3:03:05 AM # Q
> I accept your apology, and hope it informs your future
> attitude.

You want me to stop treating you civily?

"We could do that, but it would be wrong"
-- Richard Nixon


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Beersy, you pathetic COWARD
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/15/2005 3:16:50 AM # Q
So, hkklife, what you're saying is that when you presented a factual argument on the Brighthand forums and felt your views were rejected without regard to the merit of your facts or experience you decided to quit posting there.

Dullhand and 1source delete/censor every post that doesnt follow the party line. HONEST discussion is dead at those sites.

Now imagine if not only was your review rejected as biased for no good reason, but they told you that you should be ****** up the *** for writing it. And then justified that crude non-response to your review by saying it's more "truthful."

Beersy, it's ironic that you're ranting about an insult tha you actually imagined all by yourself. As Ryan can confirm, the post suggesting a certain sycophant should be ***** up the *** and should go **** themselves were not edited by the PIC posting software. Only asterisks were typed in the original posts. YOU filled in whatever YOU wanted to. Thanks for playing, Beersy. We have some nice consolation prizes for you. Pick the up as you exit stage left. It must suck to be you.

If so, you make my case for me. Now draw your own conclusions about what behavior like TVoR's coming multiple times a day on every PIC thread is doing to Ryan's site viewership. And yes, TVoR, I'm picking on you, but anyone who tries to stop a discussion they disagree with by using personal attacks or rude distractions instead of joining the discussion politely is going to lower the quality and quantity of participation on PIC or any other forum. I don't see a single reason for Ryan to allow this, so you?

Does anyone?

Beersy, you've sunk to a new low. Pleading with other foppish Palmyannas to chime in begging Ryan to ban TVoR from PIC? How pathetic. I've biotchslapped you silly on various sites and you're so incapable of formulating cogent responses that you resort to this? "Hey who's with me in begging Ryan to censor TVoR? Guys? Guys? Hello? Hellooooooooooooooo?" Go right ahead and see if your N = 1 demands will influence Ryan and make him start censoring posts here. No doubt you'd love to see Palminfocenter turn into another Jeff Kirvin-style circle jerk club where you might "accidentally" get splashed. If censorship happens, I won't be sticking around to see PIC get PalmStationed. No doubt when everyone ends up leaving PIC in disgust you'll tell Ryan something like, "Oops! My bad! Sorry you website died..."

Don't be a chicken****, Beersy. (Yes, I said chicken***, you ******. If you're not man enough to fight your own battles, then S T F U. You already got your a$$ kicked in that Mace interview thread at all about Palm. Keep it up and I won't pull my punches this time.

I see the PalmSource codemonkeys are suddenly contrite and eager to please here. How sweet. How insincere. How long before Ms. Hackborn goes postal again? I'm gessing 26 days...


TVoR, Inc.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
sr4 @ 9/15/2005 3:21:11 AM # Q

:sigh: Not your attitude to me, but to the millions of disappointed Palm users who are looking toward you for hope for the platform.

Maybe being a bit more forthcoming would be more appropriate?

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
stonemirror @ 9/15/2005 9:33:39 AM # Q
Maybe being a bit more forthcoming would be more appropriate?

SORRY, WE CANNOT COMMENT ON UNANNOUNCED PRODUCTS OR PROJECTS IN PROGRESS BEYOND THE INFORMATION POSTED ON PALMSOURCE'S WEB SITE OR MADE AVAILABLE THROUGH OUR PUBLIC RELATIONS OR PRODUCT MARKETING DEPARTMENTS. I SUGGEST YOU CONTACT THEM WITH YOUR QUESTION.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

David Schlesinger about Cobalt "I would do it again"
sr4 @ 9/15/2005 9:44:10 AM # Q

Ah, Mr David Schlesinger, you dont disappoint. You are of course completely unapologetic for wasting three years and millions of dollars on the Cobalt wild goose chase. You said you would do the same again. I wonder if its with or without knowing the outcome.

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
stonemirror @ 9/15/2005 10:02:36 AM # Q
Bill me.

I'm terribly sorry, but it's not in my job description to either provide mass apologies, nor individual ones to "relatively anonymous" entities. Any identifiable individual who feels that I personally owe them an apology is more than welcome to contact me directly to discuss the matter.

Given that specific parties have been subjected to everything from personal abuse to out-and-out harassment and threats, you're going to have to just get used to our new, more professional, response here.

出る杭は打たれる.

Sorry For Any Inconvenience You May Experience As A Result.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
sr4 @ 9/15/2005 10:31:16 AM # Q
Professionalism is always appreciated, Mr Lefty, (the Great and Terrible) Minister of Fun (or Else!)

Surur

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
stonemirror @ 9/15/2005 10:39:18 AM # Q
Professionalism is always appreciated...

No doubt, and by all of us. But as I've suggested elsewhere, this sort of thing is a two-way street.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Conspiracy of PalmSource Fools
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/15/2005 9:45:55 PM # Q
Ah, Mr David Schlesinger, you dont disappoint. You are of course completely unapologetic for wasting three years and millions of dollars on the Cobalt wild goose chase. You said you would do the same again. I wonder if its with or without knowing the outcome.

Schlesinger is not the one you want to be blaming for Cobalt's failure.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/15/2005 9:49:39 PM # Q
Any identifiable individual who feels that I personally owe them an apology is more than welcome to contact me directly to discuss the matter.


You've Got Mail.

Assuming David.Schlesinger@palmsource.com is the best way to contact you...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
cervezas @ 9/15/2005 10:54:11 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:

...

[Yeah, like any of it was worth repeating]

Voice, you've moved on from being your usual rude and supremely dense self to now being rude, supremely dense, and utterly BORING.

You're taking up space. Get on with your life, or barring that, run along and find us some news, will you?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Conspiracy of Fools
stonemirror @ 9/16/2005 12:51:31 AM # Q
You've Got Mail.

Not that I've noticed. Sorry to disappoint you.

Thanks for the additional confirmation that all you have to offer here is harassment and attempted (if entirely ineffective) incitement to harassment. Too bad for you that no one seems quite as put out as Surur would like to believe...

Hey, didn't you say you were leaving...?

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

PalmSource Dullards
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/16/2005 1:59:14 AM # Q
>>>You've Got Mail.

Not that I've noticed. Sorry to disappoint you.

Maybe your antivirus program blocked it.

Thanks for the additional confirmation that all you have to offer here is harassment and attempted (if entirely ineffective) incitement to harassment. Too bad for you that no one seems quite as put out as Surur would like to believe...

Evidently your (diseased) mind is blocking out reality again.

Hey, didn't you say you were leaving...?

No I didn't say that. Thanks for your concern though, Sweetie.

Take care,

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Engadget Podcast 43 on Acces+PSRC

sr4 @ 9/13/2005 9:20:56 AM # Q

The lastest Engadget Podcast spends about 1/4 of the show on the the PSRC aquisition. Download and listen from 22:57 to 33:22.

http://podcasts.engadget.com/

No sugarcoating going on there.

Surur

RE: Engadget Podcast 43 on Acces+PSRC
hkklife @ 9/13/2005 9:58:24 AM # Q
No, Engadget lays it down pretty straightforward and isn't afraid to call it like it is. They still report on the endless permutations of day-glo colored MP3 players coming out of Asia yet they ridicule almost every single one for underwhelming specs and a lack of differentiating features. God bless Engadget, Joysiq, and PIC!


RE: Engadget Podcast 43 on Acces+PSRC
Gekko @ 9/14/2005 10:10:36 AM # Q

great show. i never listened before but those guys are good. very fair, unbiased, professional, smart, fast, knowledgable, with pleasant "radio" voices. do those guys ever post at PIC?



RE: Engadget Podcast 43 on Acces+PSRC
hkklife @ 9/14/2005 10:55:56 AM # Q
No, they just gank news items from Treocentral, PIC, 1src etc and give props accordingly. I think they are big Treo fans, Gekko. I love how they report on stuff (especially Asian) that otherwise might fly underneath the radar.

Sometimes they editorial comments get a little too "samey" sounding but overall it's a class act. If they DO post at PIC it's with absolute anonymnity.

Reply to this comment

Will Access REALLY buy PalmSource? Nope.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/15/2005 4:09:03 AM # Q
Can't wait for the current quarter's financial statement from PalmSource in a few weeks. There's still plenty of time for Access to pull out or for someone else to sweeten a previously-"rejected" offer...

Something just seems a little funny here... Palm and PalmSource are up to something rotten...

BOLD PREDICTION:

I'm betting someone OTHER THAN ACCESS will own PalmSource within 6 months.


TVoR, Inc.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Will Access REALLY buy PalmSource? Nope.
SeldomVisitor @ 9/15/2005 7:17:37 AM # Q
If Access is not destined to be the future owner of PSRC, then the purchase price of PSRC is not destined to be as high as it is right now.

Short!

Giggle.

[note - I have somewhat-commented to the same effect previously:

-- http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=1607137052&tid=psrc&sid=1607137052&mid=4765
]

RE: Will Access REALLY buy PalmSource? Nope.
cervezas @ 9/15/2005 9:45:19 AM # Q
Ok, just for fun I'll roll with this.

Suppose Palm has been thinking for some time about buying both PalmSource *and* Access (who, after all, developed a good chunk of Palm's Blazer browser). But they knew that PSRC and Access were closing a deal and figured that it would be easier to do one big acquisition than two smaller ones. So they just bided their time....

Bwaahaahaaahaaahaaaah!


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Will Access REALLY buy PalmSource? Nope.
SeldomVisitor @ 9/15/2005 10:16:20 AM # Q
The price (talked about) being paid for PSRC is somewhat excessive (...) in many people's heads. PALM would be DUHmb to pay even more than that.

Really REALLY DUHmb.

Did Access OVERPAY for PSRC?
Gekko @ 9/15/2005 10:19:53 AM # Q

It wouldn't be the first time in business history it happened. Just because someone paid a lot for something, doesn't mean it's worth that much. A big factor will be what they do with it. We shall see.

The real questions is - Would you have bought PSRC at an 83% premium with *YOUR* money??? Not me. But I guess I'm not that "smart".



RE: Will Access REALLY buy PalmSource? Nope.
SeldomVisitor @ 9/15/2005 11:52:49 AM # Q
Well..to be MOST correct the question should be:

== WILL you buy PSRC at an 83% premium with your own money?

Not surprisingly, the answer is still "No".

I.E. - It ain't over til it's over.

RE: Will Access REALLY buy PalmSource? Nope.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/16/2005 2:06:48 AM # Q
If Access is not destined to be the future owner of PSRC, then the purchase price of PSRC is not destined to be as high as it is right now.

Perhaps.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Flame/Lame/Hate Section Forum Needed at PIC

Gekko @ 9/15/2005 10:06:18 AM # Q

I would like to see you guys all take this never-ending argument to the Forums and keep it in one thread so as to not clog up this front page. It's getting to the point where I have to fish around and strain to find other posts.

We REALLY need a "Flame/Lame/Hate Section" Forum for this kind of shiit.

XYZ Forum/Section Rules & Guidelines
Flame/Lame/Hate Section:
This is the only section of the board where flaming is allowed. Almost anything goes in this section, so let it all out! Of course there has to be some method to the madness, so the board wide rules still apply.
Special F/L/H Rule:
There will be no flaming moderators. As moderators are in a position of power it is not appropriate for them to flame/hate another member. In order to be fair to everyone, since moderators will not be able to defend themselves against flames, flames will not be allowed against moderators.

XYZ Forum Board Wide Rules:
1.) Members may not spam the board by making threads/posts about the same subject over and over again. Flooding is prohibited as well. Please make an effort to start threads in the right location. Purposely disregarding the order of the board will result in a warning. Also keep in mind this is a message board, not a chat room. If you'd like to chat, please use the PM system or our chat room.
2.) All posts must be written in the English language or they will be deleted.
3.) The advertising of other sites, boards, etc. will not be permitted. Such posts will be deleted. Links may be posted, but only as part of a conversation.
4.) There are to be absolutely no child porn links, videos or images posted. Threats to children, pedophilic jokes or references to pedophilia of any kind are strictly prohibited. Referring to others in a pedophilic way is also not allowed. This will be dealt with harshly, and most likely will result in an immediate ban.
5.) The posting of bestiality links, images and videos is not allowed.
6.) No posting of another member’s personal information without their consent. This includes, but is not limited to; real names, email addresses, telephone numbers, PMs, private IM conversations, IM screen names and home addresses. It does not matter if the member has posted this information themselves in the past. Member’s personal unseen photos are also not allowed to be posted without permission. However, if the photo was posted in the past with permission from the owner, it is now in the public domain, you can do with it as you please.
7.) Avatars and profile information (this includes anything contained on a member’s profile page) are not to be used to flame another member.
8.) Signatures are allowed, as long as they follow these guidelines:
a.) 5 lines or less in total length at a screen resolution of 800x600. This includes spaces as well as text.
b.) No links. XYZ is the exception to this.
c.) No flaming.
d.) No font larger than size 3.
e.) English only.

Bannings:
Members are generally given 3 warnings before being banned.
The exception to this is if you are found in violation of number 4.
The third warning will be your final warning. If you are guilty of a fourth violation, you will be banned without notice. Once banned, members will not be allowed back in under a new ID. It is permanent.

By registering with the XYZ.com Forum you agree to adhere to the above rules/regulations.


Thank You,
The XYZ Forum Mod Team

RE: Flame/Lame/Hate Section Forum Needed at PIC
cervezas @ 9/15/2005 2:23:24 PM # Q
So, only links to porn where the people are 18 or older. Coprophilia links not only permitted, but encouraged.

No, just kidding. Having a terms of use agreement that sets the editorial policy sounds like a reasonable idea as well as the Flame/Lame/Hate section. Although I doubt the latter will be all that popular since the main motivation for the flaming is probably the grandstanding and I doubt many people will ever see the stuff that's posted there.

On the other hand, the forum belongs to Ryan: I don't think he legally needs our agreement to his editorial policy for him to carry it out. The only reason to add this would be to give people advance warning. And then it could be a liability when Ryan realizes the terms didn't cover something he really needed to moderate (like non-pedophiliac porn links) since he's given the impression that the agreement is the extent of the rules.

So, not sure if the agreement helps that much. The main thing is just to start moderating the stuff that common sense dictates should never be allowed. It's up to Ryan to decide what that "common sense" is and for us to adapt, with or without a terms of use agreement.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

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