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Comments on: Palm Treo 700w Approved by the FCC

The Windows Mobile Palm Treo 700w has gained FCC approval. The FCC filling confirms the Treo 700w name and some other details. They have also published the full user manual as well as new pictures and screenshots of the device.
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Where is all the excitement?

benamy @ 12/5/2005 4:17:14 PM # Q
So who wants one?

I am surprised no one has jump on the posting of this abomination.

Have fun hard reseting Mobile 2005.

Ben


RE: Where is all the excitement?
Foo Fighter @ 12/5/2005 4:51:10 PM # Q
>> "Have fun hard reseting Mobile 2005"

You mean like the kind of "fun" I have resetting Garnet? Or even more entertaining...watching Garnet reset ITSELF?

The screen resolution alone will keep me, and a lot of other folks from buying the 700w. I just can't go back to a primitive 240x240 (or even QVGA) display. Now, if this were a 480x480 then I would be interested.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Where is all the excitement?
Tuckermaclain @ 12/5/2005 4:59:02 PM # Q
What should we read into this when there is no 700p application? Did I miss it?

RE: Where is all the excitement?
LiveFaith @ 12/5/2005 5:17:19 PM # Q
**It has Bluetooth v1.2, however the manual explicitly states you cannot use a Bluetooth headset to listen to music.**

Palm. They place their trademark on yet another device. What on God's green earth could they possibly be thinking on this one. v1.2 and the note in the article about wireless headsets is the evidence that they are laying an egg on an absolutely wonderful feature. Unbelievable!!!

But, it's MinMollasses anyway with 1/2 the pixels, beasty antenna, only 64MB (for Windows!)so not much to get excited @ anyway, EV-DO excepted.

Still unbelievable!!!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Where is all the excitement?
AdamaDBrown @ 12/5/2005 6:26:08 PM # Q
Tuckermaclain wrote:
What should we read into this when there is no 700p application? Did I miss it?

No, you didn't miss it, there hasn't been any filing. At this point, all that that really means is that any 700p won't be coming out at the same time as the 700w.

LiveFaith wrote
They place their trademark on yet another device.

To be fair, the lack of BT headphone support is the fault of the original Bluetooth stack that WM5 shipped with, and was only fixed in the recent AKU 2. Also, 64 MB is probably the RAM, which is reasonably spacious under WM5.

RE: Where is all the excitement?
Masamune @ 12/5/2005 6:59:08 PM # Q
"You mean like the kind of "fun" I have resetting Garnet? Or even more entertaining...watching Garnet reset ITSELF?"

At least Palm saves you the effort having to reset it yourself....

RE: Where is all the excitement?
LiveFaith @ 12/5/2005 7:14:59 PM # Q
Adam,

Can it be upgraded from the ROM? Maybe Palm could sell it as an upgrade. :-o

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Where is all the excitement?
fishtastic @ 12/5/2005 7:38:09 PM # Q
240*240 is pitiful for a WinMob machine and that's the reason I didn't buy the HP one either.

I'll stick with my O2 Exec (Universal); 640*480 screen, 128mb flash, 64mb ram, WiFi, Bluetooth, GSM, 3G, QWERTY keyboard.

As far as resets go, 1 month - no resets (except app installs that soft reset after installation).

I dont know why Palm decided to release a product which is so clearly flawed. I know WinMob support 240*240 but lots of apps don't. Could they have not used 320*320 and only allowed the os to see 320*240 and put phone status data in a 320*60 bar? Better luck with the next one. Try a useful resolution.

Fish

RE: Where is all the excitement?
AdamaDBrown @ 12/5/2005 7:45:36 PM # Q
Yes, it can be distributed as a ROM update. Dell has already released one update including AKU 1, so I'd definitely hold out some hope that the T700w will get updated either before the launch or soon after. AKU 2 is also the update that enables push email from an Exchange server, so I doubt that they'll want to forgo that.

RE: Where is all the excitement?
LiveFaith @ 12/6/2005 10:32:10 AM # Q
fishtastic,

The handwriting's on the wall for that form factor and feauture set (except EDGE v EV-DO) you have there. That being said, my guess is that corporate America will still go after the WinMob Treo by leaps and bounds. Why? Because it's a Treo and the form is a proven one.

It takes a little while for the better tech to take hold because the herd is slower to see it than the relatively few geeks. When the Palm OS Cingular 8215 comes it will hit critical mass: :-o
http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/htc8215v650.JPG

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Reply to this comment

Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!

Surur @ 12/5/2005 5:00:22 PM # Q
Search Google from your Today Screen

Sunday, December 4, 2005, 06:28 PM - New Software
I was enamored with one of the Today Screen plugins on the new WM Treo, of which you can see a screenshot here:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?action=expand,44751&/treo_700w_manual_now_available.htm

The plugin allows you to search the web from the today screen. This seemed useful, and I wonder why no one ever thought of it before. I've often debated which to leave my homepage on in PIE, yahoo for me to check my mail and the like, or google, to do quick info lookups. Yahoo has won, but now I could have the best of both worlds.

I decided to try to write a clone of such a plugin, and here's my result:

This is a 1.0/beta version that I'd like people to help me test out. It's not configurable, it will only search google. There are some issues with the Keyboard popping/not popping/not disappearing that I need to work on, and there may be some version and theme problems.

Basically, I'd like to hear from you if it works. I'm not sure if it will work on devices that use anything earlier than WM2003SE. If that's the case, I'll work on fixing that.

You can install it via cab here: http://www.cs.pitt.edu/~jmisurda/ppc/SearchToday.ARM.CAB

Download/Copy it to your device, install, and enable it from the Today settings applet. There will be an improved installer in the future as well. To uninstall, you'll first have to uncheck it from the today settings applet, then uninstall.

Let me know how it works, and give some suggestions for future versions.

Thanks,

Jon

http://www.cs.pitt.edu/~jmisurda/ppc/blog/comments.php?y=05&m=12&entry=entry051204-182826

When Palm went WM it was as a lamb lying with wolves. Their unique features are quite superficial and will soon be copied and probably available for free.

Surur



They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Rome @ 12/5/2005 9:50:07 PM # Q
"When Palm went WM it was as a lamb lying with wolves. Their unique features are quite superficial and will soon be copied and probably available for free."

so, what's you point? Are you saying that Palm made a mistaking by going with MW? Or are you saying that Palm should not even try to improve upon WM and let Microsoft do all the "innovations'? The fact that Palm is first to market with these new features is of significantly importance in itself.

It is one thing to be critical, but your lack of objectivity is truly astounding.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
freakout @ 12/6/2005 12:19:59 AM # Q
Take it easy, tiger! I think Surur's point was that for all their (and Microsoft's) talk of Palm having unprecedented power to make changes to WM, the extra features they've added don't seem to be all the ground-breaking.

"The fact that Palm is first to market with these new features is of significantly importance in itself."

You're quite right, it is. But yet I wonder what this phone would look like if it was still Handspring calling the shots with the Treo... They seemed to have an "innovation edge" (I hate that phrase but can't think of a better one) that Palm can't match.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/6/2005 3:04:35 AM # Q
About the same.

The original PalmPilot was a lucky shot in the dark. The longer that it's been on the market the clearer it becomes that the original Treo was another one.

PalmOS and its usability was also great 'back in the day', but it has outlived its usefulness. PDA-ish devices aren't single address space battery-backed-up DRAM devices with a small number of simple I/O devices, and Palm(One|Source) haven't figured out what to do about that.

Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
freakout @ 12/6/2005 3:25:16 AM # Q
It seems the answer is "Run crying to Microsoft."

Rather depressingly.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
freakout @ 12/6/2005 3:51:04 AM # Q
"The original PalmPilot was a lucky shot in the dark. The longer that it's been on the market the clearer it becomes that the original Treo was another one."

Sales are growing. Possibly four new models being introduced, each to target a different market. Explain. ;)

"...but it has outlived its usefulness."

I can totally understand that - especially coming from a developer's viewpoint like yours - but from an end-user's point of view, at least mine, Garnet is still quite a viable OS. It's been able to handle everything I've thrown at it. There's squillions of applications available for almost any task, a lot of them free.

It sometimes resets after I've been using the GPS, running PocketTunes in the background** and then try to play a game or something. It takes 20seconds for it to soft-reset. Big deal. (23 if you want to be pedantical ;) ). Once or twice, it's reset itself for what seemed to be no reason at all. I don't like that, but it's infrequent enough (I mean "once or twice" literally, and i've owned it for 8 months now) that it's not really an issue.

I guess what I'm saying is that I know Garnet needs to go. Palm/Source seems to have hit a development wall with it. But for now, and at least another year or two, end-users like myself aren't going to notice any significant deficiencies with it.

**The Treo makes an *excellent* addition to your car stereo, esp. if you have an old piece of junk like mine. A $10 car cradle and a $20 cassette adaptor (or an even cheaper line-in cable) and you have an in-car mp3 player that rivals the ridiculously exorbitant ones being marketed currently. Betters them, actually, thanks to the the big touchscreen that's mounted higher up on the dash, so you don't have to lean over to adjust anything.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
hkklife @ 12/6/2005 10:16:50 AM # Q
Garnet is STILL a servicable OS, yes, but ONLY for 320*320 single wireless devices (T|E2 is the ideal Garnet machine).

Anything more than that and it's just tasked with too much to bear. The TX has just as many quirks as a patched T5, possibly more.

Just imagine what Plam could've done with the Treo had it had a robust OS ready to go in '04/'05. I definitely see the Treo wave as passing. When you see execs trading in their Treo 600s for a RAZR just because they want something sleek, reliable, and stylish you know it's a bad sign. It's the Palm V phenomena all over again. Someone gets a PDA/Smartphone. They think it's clunky/heavy/ugly but they like its functionality. Then a cell phone that is much smaller & carries more cachet appears and they suddely realize that their cell's built in phone book is "good enough" and the smartphone/PDA is replace/relegated to the side pocket of their messenger bad/briefcase.

It happened in '01 when the V60/Vader made a lot of people replace their Palm IIIs & Vs. It's happening again with the RAZR and the slew of knockoff/spinoff phones about to be unleashed on the market.

I think that unless Palm can do some MAJOR reworking in the first half of '06, the WinMob Treo will be the last major gasp. Palm's not good at playing the carrier game and, unlike Moto/Nokia, isn't skilled at pitting the carriers against each other. People aren't going to change from Verizon to Spring just to get a Treo 700p. They'll just end up not BUYING another Treo at all.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
LiveFaith @ 12/6/2005 10:38:40 AM # Q
"The original PalmPilot was a lucky shot in the dark. The longer that it's been on the market the clearer it becomes that the original Treo was another one."

Two lucky shots in the dark for Hawkins / Dubinsky & Co? Hehe, I'll bet those Powerball Lottery ads get your attention. :-)

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/6/2005 3:39:49 PM # Q
Yup, two lucky shots in the dark, and nope, I'm math literate, I don't go anywhere near the powerball, thanks.

While Hawkins and friends may well have known exactly what they were doing when the cobbled together the first PalmPilot, the fact that they happened to do it at just the right time was a lucky shot in the dark for Palm *the company*. Said company then coasted along on small incremental improvements for years, slowly winding its way into obvlivion until, by another lucky shot in the dark, Handspring did the Treo but couldn't survive in the marketplace, so Palm *the company* once again lucked out, and has, since, gotten by pretty much on small incremental improvements.

Now Access has bought PalmSource. Third lucky shot, or shot in the foot? Only time will tell ;)


Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
freakout @ 12/6/2005 5:01:35 PM # Q
While I myself would like to see revolution rather than evolution with the Treo, it seems to me that evolution is what it needs right now. And in only three areas:

1)Stability. We might be seeing the best of Garnet here, but then, maybe Palm can wring another few drops of blood out of the stone...)

2)Style. Hollywood will apparently fix this, or at least try to. But if it's WinMob then it won't really be a Treo. (Yes, I know I'm shooting my mouth off before I've even tried it....

3) Price. Lowrider will apparently rectify this too.

It's just silly to write off the Treo as a failed fad right now, especially when they're about to try such an aggressive new set of releases. And especially when sales are still growing!

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Marty, you VICIOUS snake! ;-O
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/6/2005 11:26:27 PM # Q
The original PalmPilot was a lucky shot in the dark. The longer that it's been on the market the clearer it becomes that the original Treo was another one.

Oh please. Give Hawkins a little credit. Yes, the OS choice was a lucky one (who would have ever thought it would be this flexible?) but Hawkins et. al. knew their limitations and didn't try to be something they lacked the hardware to be. And the Treo 600 was a killer hack of a decrepit, obsolete OS - you should know better than to dis' what those Treo Kiddies did with very limited resources. The packaging of a decent keyboard into a relatively small form factor was also a good bit of design work. The only "luck" involved with the Treo 600 was Palm being lucky enough to have such a solid design handed to them on a silver platter by a desperate Handspring that had shot its financial wad before they could get the Treo 600 out the door into reasonable production.

Now the fact that Palm has gone on and done exactly NOTHING with those two original designs... THAT is something to biotch about. The Sony CLIE UX50, TH55 and VZ90 are designs that Palm is too incompetent to have produced. Palm has been milking the Incremental Upgrade Cow for so long they don't realize that cow died years ago...

PalmOS and its usability was also great 'back in the day', but it has outlived its usefulness. PDA-ish devices aren't single address space battery-backed-up DRAM devices with a small number of simple I/O devices, and Palm(One|Source) haven't figured out what to do about that.

Bull. PalmOS is still quite useful - as long as it doesn't try to overextend itself. My UX50 is a killer PDA and can almost replace a laptop when it's loaded with the right apps. With some work, PalmOS 5 could be more stable - even though the writing's on the wall (its days are numbered). With a little effort PalmOS could have had a lot of life left in it. The problem is Palm/PalmSource were too stupid to fix little things before they became major problems. It amazes me that an OS company could have invested so little money in developing its most important product - the OS - when times were good + all those Palm Vx were flying off the shelves.

Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

You vicious biotch! That was mean, Marty. Don't bite the hand that fed (and then spanked your a$$)... ;-O

At least you got out with your dignity still (barely) intact. Those poor dumba$$es left at PalmSource are going to be culled faster than you can say さようなら

Say┃nara PalmSource-san.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/7/2005 3:17:17 AM # Q
I did give Hawkins credit, and he deserves it. I think the original PalmPilot design was a brilliant example of effective compromise to create a market opportunity. It's Palm, not the founders, that I'm accusing of running on luck.

I dunno what sort of laptop you'd replace with a PDA (maybe one of the $100 wind up ones?) but I doubt it'd be one that anyone who does serious business with a laptop is using. Still, a PDA is a lot cheaper than a laptop, and smaller, so if you're needs fit into such a small device, good for you.

These days, laptops run 2+ghz processors with nice graphics, gig-e and wifi, and routinely come with a gig+ of ram and 50gb+ of disk, and a dvd burner and ok sound. I use one for serious software development where I would have used a pretty hefty workstation just five years ago. There are even a couple of laptops around that you could use as gamer machines.

Pity the PDA hasn't advanced as much in the last five years as the laptop has. (_NOT_ Palm's fault, though. Nature of the beast and all.)



Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

Dumping PalmSource employees made easy...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/7/2005 5:21:10 AM # Q
I did give Hawkins credit, and he deserves it. I think the original PalmPilot design was a brilliant example of effective compromise to create a market opportunity. It's Palm, not the founders, that I'm accusing of running on luck.

I now see you later clarified that you were bashing Palm the COMPANY rather than the original design/designers. Fair enough.

I dunno what sort of laptop you'd replace with a PDA (maybe one of the $100 wind up ones?)

The kind of laptop that does email, Word documents, Excel, stores + displays photos, plays MP3, carries Outlook contacts + schedule, sends files back + forth to my desktop via Bluetooth, keeps track of multiple budgets with Microsoft Money and browses the Internet. That kind of laptop. The kind that actually does around 90% of what the average users needs from a laptop and carries around 0% of the Windows-related headaches. The kind that weighs 6 ounces and has survived countless drops to the pavement without a scratch. The kind that's immune to viruses. That kind of laptop.


but I doubt it'd be one that anyone who does serious business with a laptop is using.

And how many employees outfitted with laptops actually NEED them? And how mant hours are wasted supporting clueless end users? Yes YOU may need the son of BRAINIAC, but a lot of us don't.

Still, a PDA is a lot cheaper than a laptop, and smaller, so if you're needs fit into such a small device, good for you.

Bingo. But what I really want to see is the cross between a UX50, a VZ90 (with OLED screen) and an IBM X40, with integrated cellphone.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/7/2005 5:44:56 AM # Q
Pity the PDA hasn't advanced as much in the last five years as the laptop has. (_NOT_ Palm's fault, though. Nature of the beast and all.)

If you look at Palm PDA's you would have that impression, but pocketpc's have been rumbling along quite nicely thank you. The very fact that you can run Quake with a decent frame rate (20+ frames/sec) tells you that the hardware is not that bad. Lets look at the featues that pocketpc's have in common with laptops these days (not one ppc has all these features, but quite a few has many of them)
USB 2 - same as a laptop
wifi g - same as a laptop
Bluetooth 2 - same as a laptop
USB host - same as a laptop (although much more limited due to driver availability)
EVDO - same as a laptop
Expandable mass storage, also to 100's of GB through USB host

The better PDA's these days have VGA screens with a much higher DPI than most laptops, video accelerators and featues such as GPS, which almost no laptops have, and often built-in cameras, which most laptops do not have.

The fact is that PDA's are technologically more advanced than laptops in many areas, especially in their strenght, which is portability and long battery life. There was a recent story of a PPC PDA with a 1500mah battery that was able to achieve 37 hour run time while in an ebook battery test.

Sure, PDA's arnt laptops, but they have advanced plenty in their own direction (as long as you are talking about PPC's of course ;) )

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/7/2005 10:35:51 PM # Q
"The better PDA's these days have VGA screens with a much higher DPI than most laptops"

Surur, I foresee a career for you in marketing. That's the first time I've seen the disadvantage of tiny screens described in a way as to make it appear an advantage. After all, in this instance, all "higher DPI" means is that you have to get closer to see the same level of detail.


Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

Marty. Kettle. Black.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/8/2005 12:11:24 AM # Q
"The better PDA's these days have VGA screens with a much higher DPI than most laptops"

Surur, I foresee a career for you in marketing. That's the first time I've seen the disadvantage of tiny screens described in a way as to make it appear an advantage. After all, in this instance, all "higher DPI" means is that you have to get closer to see the same level of detail.


Wow. And this coming from Marty "Defender of PalmSource" Fouts? Pot. Kettle. Black.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Who will replace the legendary Marty Fouts at PalmSource?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/8/2005 12:17:48 AM # Q
Why did PalmSource suddenly deem Marty Fouts expendable?



Why was Marty-san dumped by yet another employer despite his 1337 Linux 5K!11Z?






Why?





Why?





Why?




Eighth World "Wonder"?

Or just another Marty Blunder?





You decide, Kiddies...

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/8/2005 2:27:50 AM # Q
Pay attention, Skippy. I quit. Nobody "dumped" me.

I realize that reality is hard for you and accuracy is not your strong suit, but it's sad to watch you making such a fool of yourself here.

Have a Nice Day.



Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/8/2005 2:49:15 AM # Q
"The better PDA's these days have VGA screens with a much higher DPI than most laptops"

Surur, I foresee a career for you in marketing. That's the first time I've seen the disadvantage of tiny screens described in a way as to make it appear an advantage. After all, in this instance, all "higher DPI" means is that you have to get closer to see the same level of detail.


Marty Fouts

I wont belabor the point, accept to say it indicates that even screen tech, just like in laptops, is not standing still.

Surur


I wasn't booted out. I landed on my a$$ on purpose. Yeah.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/8/2005 3:05:20 AM # Q
I quit. Nobody "dumped" me.


When were you planning to leave PalmSource, Marty? And when did they TELL you to pack up your stuff and get the **** out of the building?

Whatever gets you through the night, Sweetie.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/8/2005 2:22:58 PM # Q
Surur,

I never suggested that PDA tech is standing still, only that it would be nice if it were moving forward at the much faster rate of mainstream computing.

When I compare a typical '00 Dell Latitude that I have to a typical '04 Dell Inspiron that I bought recently and then compare my Visor Neo to the Tungsten C I bought my wife, (both typical PDAs of their period) I don't get the same sense of advancement from the PDA. Especially when I factor in that the Latitude was twice as expensive as the Inspiron but the Neo was cheaper than the C.

More interestingly, compare the Treo 600 to the Treo 700.


Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

15
PenguinPowered @ 12/8/2005 2:34:34 PM # Q
Ah, Skippy's being 15 again.

How special.

Have a nice day, Skippy.

Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/8/2005 4:25:06 PM # Q
When I compare a typical '00 Dell Latitude that I have to a typical '04 Dell Inspiron that I bought recently and then compare my Visor Neo to the Tungsten C I bought my wife, (both typical PDAs of their period) I don't get the same sense of advancement from the PDA

Thats because you are comparing PalmOS PDA's. In any case the Visor Neo was announced September 2001. The Tungsten C was announced April 2003. Thats actually less than 2 years. Maybe thats not actually a fair expectation for major change in any case.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/8/2005 5:22:57 PM # Q
OK, so I'll bite. What's a '00 non-Palm pda that was typical in the market at the time? What's a typical '05 non-Palm pda that's typical in the market now?

How do they really stack up?


Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/8/2005 7:10:32 PM # Q
I think few could argue that the prototypical pocketpc was the Ipaq h3600, announced in April 2000. It had 32MB ram, a 12bit QVGA screen, 206Mhz processor, SD slot and only infra-red wireless.

Dimensions
Width 3.3 in. Depth 0.63 in. Height 5.1 in. Weight 5.8 oz

My favorite 2005 PDA is still the Loox 720. It has a 520Mhz processor with wireless mmx, 128MB ram, 64MB ROM (27 user accessible), WIFI, bluetooth, consumer infra-red, dual slots and of course 16 bit VGA screen. In addition it has USB host, audio out via cradle, VOIP speaker, and mic in via the headphone socket (besides the normal mike of course)

Dimensions 2.83 w 4.80 h 0.60 d 6 oz.

So the 2005 device is thinner, narrower and shorter, yet has dual slots, three types of wireless, 4 times the resolution, many times the battery life, and generally much more capable.

2006 PDA's are going to blow us away. The Loox 560 which is coming q1 2006 is a VGA pocketpc with 256 MB ROM/64 MB RAM, 624 MHz processor, VGA, GPS (Sirf III), BT and 802.11g WIFI, USB Host, 2700g GPU, VGA out via cable, and an OS that can use all these features. And it will be smaller than the Loox 720.

Besides adding WAN in some form (like the HTC Universal, which has GSM, 3G, WIFI and bluetooth) or a huge amount of storage (but then 4GB SD cards are available already) I really cant think of anything more to add to such a device. Yet a 2007 device will still make a 2006 device look outdated.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
freakout @ 12/8/2005 7:35:49 PM # Q
"The Loox 560 which is coming q1 2006 is a VGA pocketpc with 256 MB ROM/64 MB RAM, 624 MHz processor, VGA, GPS (Sirf III), BT and 802.11g WIFI, USB Host, 2700g GPU, VGA out via cable, and an OS that can use all these features."

Woah!!!

How *much* is that going to cost??!! (and where can I steal one? Even if it does run WinMob...)

As someone who appears relatively neutral in the ongoing Palm/PocketPC stoush, Surur, how do you find the two OS's compare?

If they could shrink a device like that down to a Treo form factor... (drools)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/8/2005 8:23:57 PM # Q
Well, according to http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/fujitsu-siemens-loox-720/ is more of a high ender than a typical, but it doesn't matter, as you're making my point rather nicely.

Between your two examples, processor speed doubled, RAM stayed the same, and ROM doubled (assuming I'm reading what you meant about RAM/ROM amounts.) The price, IIRC, stayed about the same.

OOTH, between my two mainstream laptops:

1) Screen resoultion went up (and dpi as well)
2) Weight went down.
3) battery performance got better
4) Went from no builtin network interfaces to gig-e/802.11g built in
5) memory went from 128mb to 2gb (that's a factor of 16)
6) disk size went from 512mb to 80gb
7) processor speed went from 166mhz to 2ghz.
8) went from cd player to dvd burner

and the price went down. If I were to compare a highend lap top to an '00 laptop the numbers would be a lot more impressive, but so would the price.

So yeah, PDA tech isn't standing still, but I sure wish it'd managed what laptop tech had managed.

Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

Marty... Marty... Marty...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/8/2005 8:52:21 PM # Q
Have a nice day, Skippy.

Thanks, Marty. Take care.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
freakout @ 12/8/2005 9:26:33 PM # Q
Marty,

PDAs, by nature of being a small handheld device, don't need the same huge leaps in processor power and hardware add-ons that laptops do. Laptops are meant to be mobile desktops and are built as such; PDAs/smartphones are not. They're for quick data access while on the go, simple games and things like GPS that are uniquely suited to a handheld unit. While it would be nice to see revolutionary advances in hardware, the real challenge with PDA's - as always - is the efficient presentation of and access to data on a small screen. Until they can get that down pat, why on earth do we want them to complicate it even further?

Can you see yourself whipping out your laptop while geocaching?

Stop comparing the two! :P

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
PenguinPowered @ 12/9/2005 1:47:32 AM # Q
I'm not comparing the two, I'm comparing the relative rate of advance in the two. Oh, and yes, I *do* whip out my laptop while geocaching. It has all sorts of uses -- but only at 'base camp', in the car.



Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/9/2005 3:34:39 AM # Q

I'm not really neutral. I'm mainly a WM advocate, but after a year of hanging around here I now appreciate that there is in fact nothing (in theory) that can be done on WM that cant also be done under POS, given enough incentive. Recent examples would be the PalmPDF project. I have also seen enough POS users try use WM and recoil in horror due to usability issues to unequivocally advocate anyone switch. It seems "horses for courses" is still very applicable in the PDA area.

Its however easy to recognize the trend, which is unfortunately downwards for POS and upwards for WM, especially if we look at the diversity of OEM's, models and hardware. However we will have to see what the future brings, but these days nothing would surprise me any more.

The Loox 560 is expected to be around 600 euros (400) which is a pretty good deal for a VGA screen dual wireless device with GPS, but still of course on the expensive side.

The size should be around 116 x 71 x 14 mm (the dimensions of the N520 QVGA range). The Treo 650 is 113 x 59 x 23 mm, so the size differences is not as dramatic as may be expected.

http://www.firstloox.org/

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/9/2005 6:11:00 PM # Q
> I'm not really neutral. I'm mainly a WM advocate ...

That's an interesting way of admitting that you only come here to advertise Windows Docile devices.

Of course, there are some things that you can't admit, not even to yourself. One of the things you can't admit is that you were deceived about the so-called 'superiority' of the Windows Docile device you wasted your money on. This is a common phenomenon among you 'WM advocates' - you only need to go over to pocketpcthoughts.com to see how keen the guys there are try to reassure each other about this. In reality, this is a case of denial - denial in the hope of getting rid of that nagging feeling that you were foolish to be taken in by the M$ advertising.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/9/2005 6:50:04 PM # Q
Simony, how's your USB-hostless Palm doing. Can you plug in your desktop sized keyboard yet? I do so every day. How about that multi-tabbed browser. I use Netfront 3.3 every day. I love it. It freezes up occasionally however. I just go to the task manager and kill it, then restart the browser.

The fact is that I have been enjoying the advantages of the WM platform everyday for many years. I've enjoyed using my VGA screen for the last year, and Ive enjoyed being able to open pdf's directly from the internet, and Ive enjoyed having WIFI built-in, or bluetooth dial-up, and Ive even played a bit with Skype.

I'm not saying these these things are impossible in PalmOS, but then I have not been waiting years for them either. Ease of use and intuitiveness is only necessary for the first few weeks, from them on its all about pure functionality. And the fact is, for me, WM gets the job done. POS would not have. But like you, I might not even know what I'm missing.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
freakout @ 12/9/2005 8:19:06 PM # Q
PenguinPowered said
"I'm not comparing the two, I'm comparing the relative rate of advance in the two."

Sorry, in my effort to sound quick and snappy I wasn't all that clear. The point I wanted to make was that the PDA's rate of advance hardware-wise is by nature slower. Processor power and memory haven't streaked ahead in massive leaps and bounds because the nature of a PDA doesn't require vast amounts of grunt. It's much more about being able to access your data while on the move.

There's only so many radios, SD slots and other bits of hardware you can add before it becomes... a laptop.

OT, as a fellow geocacher, do you prefer urban caches or natural ones? I had a nasty experience with some snakes a couple of months ago that turned me right off the parkland ones...

Surur said:
"I'm not really neutral. I'm mainly a WM advocate..."

I'll try not to hold it against you. ;) I wouldn't turn my nose up at a WM device if someone gave me one, but I just can't bring myself to trust Microsoft software anymore. Not enough to justify spending a lot of money on a Windows device.

Netfront 3.3 has tabbed browsing? Isn't Blazer based on Netfront? Why don't we Palm people get it? (pouts)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/10/2005 9:04:08 PM # Q
> Simony, how's your USB-hostless Palm doing. Can you plug in your desktop sized keyboard yet? I do so every day. How about that multi-tabbed browser. I use Netfront 3.3 every day. I love it. It freezes up occasionally however. I just go to the task manager and kill it, then restart the browser.

You want to plug in a desktop keyboard to a mobile device? Kinda defeats the purpose of the handheld computer, if you ask me. But if you must have this so-called 'feature', you can use TapSmart KeyLink to use your desktop keyboard to run your Palm. (Check it out over at palmgear.com)

As for a tabbed browser, so far as I know, there is no Palm program that does this (but I haven't tried the hacked version of Opera, so can't vouch for what that can or can't do).

Of course, there is a very simple workaround you can use in Blazer to emulate tabbed browsing. If you see a page you want to come back to, rather than creating a new tab for it, with 2 taps you can Save Page and with 2 taps to come back to it in a flash. Very easy to use - even a 'WM Advocate' like you could handle this I guess.

By the way, on your much vaunted Windows Docile device, are you able to create an appointment in less than 5 seconds like I do every day with my little TE2? (No? Really? How about in less than than 2 minutes?) How about setting an alarm that actually works? Why not?

I'll tell you why not - because you were tricked into purchasing a poor-excuse-for-an-organiser - a device which is marketed using slogans like 'you can do more', whereas the things can't even do the basic things well.

Loox 720 to be EOLed
Simony @ 12/10/2005 11:53:54 PM # Q
Hey, Surur, there a rumour over at pocketpcthoughts.com that your precious Loox 720 is to be discountinued in a few months time, without any replacement.

Looks like they were not able to fool enough people into wasting their money on those things - despite all the advertising from you (and others, who should know better, such as those at palm247.com).

Try not to gloat too quickly, Simony.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2005 12:14:12 AM # Q
http://www.firstloox.org/index.php?categoryid=1&p2_articleid=254

Furthermore, an avalanche of Windows Mobile devices (from SEVERAL different manufacturers) is about to put the hurt on PalmOS even more. Don't think that a cancelled Windows Mobile device signals the reversal of Palm's spectacular collapse.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/11/2005 12:48:59 AM # Q
There have been successive waves of WinCE/PPC/WM/whatever launches over the years (anyone remember the Philips Nino?). Most of them failed. HP continues to fight (despite the cost-cutting program at HP) but, like all the others, they are being hurt by Dell's pricing. Going by the initial price set for the TX, Palm is taking a leaf out of Dell's playbook. If they each keep this up, they will put the sword to all other rivals. In response, their rivals are trying to preserve price levels by adding more and more gadgets in the hope that they will stumble across a 'must have' combination. This has been tried before and it has failed before (can you say 'Toshiba'?). Against this background, the avalanche you refer to is likely to lead to rivers of red ink.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
AdamaDBrown @ 12/11/2005 2:12:18 AM # Q
You have a strange definition of failure. PocketPCs are a failure because they didn't instantaneously displace all Palms? By that logic, then, isn't the TX a failure because it failed to instantly terminate all PocketPCs? The market is a little more complex than that. But hey, you've still developed valuable skills in spinning, distortion, and oversimplification. You're well on your way to a career in politics.

By the way, the Loox 720 will be almost two years old by the time it's decomissioned. That's an eternity in this market. Also, what you didn't mention is that Fujitsu is also planning a new 700-series VGA PocketPC phone that will be debuting at the same time the 720 is put out to pasture. But hey--don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/11/2005 3:58:39 AM # Q
> You're well on your way to a career in politics.

Been there; done that.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/11/2005 6:31:01 AM # Q
I'll explain (a little). A few years back I was an adviser to a senator in charge of negotiating and rewriting most of a major tax reform bill. I discovered that politics is not for me - but it was an eye-opening experience and I met some interesting people.

As to my definition of 'failure' - I guess I look at things in a slightly different way from you. Let me give you an example of what I mean.

At the height of the dotcom boom, there was a famous article publish in Business Week or Forbes magazine, which outlined Warren Buffett's thinking. He drew a comparison with the airline and auto industries. The central thesis was that those industries have changed our lives immeasurably, but have they produced any profits? Among other things, Mr Buffett referred to the fact that in the 1920s there was a large number of auto manufacturers - something like 45 of them if I recall correctly - but he then noted that by the 1960s there was only 3 of them. (Some of them are looking a little shaky these days if you ask me.) Anyway, what happened to those which didn't make the cut? Well, according to Mr Buffett, they either got bought-out by GM, they moved into other industries or they went bankrupt. Which brings me to the point of this little example - how many of the 45 would I call 'failures'? - all but 3 of them (and the jury is still out on the remaining 3).

Looking at the WinCE/PPC/whatever OEMs say 5 years ago - how many of them are still around today? Er ... well, there's HP (which ain't doing so well, I guess) and who else? I raise this because, at the time, each of them touted their devices as the greatest thing ever, they were going to destroy Palm, etc, etc. (Sounds familiar doesn't it?) But how many of them are still in the business today? Call me cynical if you wish, but if someone goes out of business, that doesn't look like a 'success' to me.

Take this one step further - of all the current crop of WM OEMs out there (each of whom claims to be a world-beater), how many will be around in 5 years time? I don't know because, unlike our resident 'WM Advocate', I can't predict the future. I would be surprised, however, if more than 1 or 2 of them survive that long. Why? Because that is what often happens in the real world.

If you want to believe all the glossy press releases, fine, it's a free country and you are entitled to be childish if you wish.

However, may I suggest that go through back-issues of (say) Pen Computing magazine, to see that there have been successive waves of WinCE/PPC/WM/whatever devices released over the years. On each occassion, each OEMs claimed that they had the best product, etc, etc. But where are they today?

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/11/2005 12:34:23 PM # Q

Simony, I thought we were 6 months past this level of discussion. Do I have to remind you of all the graphs and sales figures etc that I dug up to support my position. By next month even Palm will be adding to WM sales figures, and whatever they say about growing the market, there will be a cannibalization of POS sales. WM is the future.

Regarding persistence in the market, I would think POS has shed many more OEM's that WM has. Just because USA is an unfriendly market for handheld devices does not mean the rest of the world does not have a large selection of devices available. Take a look at the list of devices being used by people currently.
http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/about/pressreleases/docs/spbsurvey2005.html?en#q6 I believe about +46 different devices were represented.

About FSC specifically, in their recent 2004/2005 financial report (March 2005) they said this:

Portfolio doubled in size
During the course of the year, we supported our pragmatic approach to mobility with an impressive number of new products and solutions such as those listed in the following. These products are designed to manage mobile resources, cope with growing demands for mobile security and enable wireless, intelligent access to corporate infrastructures. Our increasingly broad offering ensures the right fit for all budget, mobility and entertainment needs.

Office to go
Unit sales of handheld devices doubled during the year under review, almost hitting the 100,000 mark. Additions to our Pocket LOOX line of handhelds were a massive success, bringing even more choice and connectivity options to handheld users. Offering the slimmest form factor available, the lightweight, stylish Pocket LOOX 400 is the perfect entry-level pocket office. At the high end of the spectrum, the multiple-award-winning Pocket LOOX 700 Series combines the latest features and high-performance technology with a very small and stylish form factor cabinet. It is the ideal platform for mobile access to enterprise applications.

Drawing on more than a decade of experience in the tablet PC business, we consolidated our number one position in EMEA, with a 51 percent year-on-year increase in revenue for the first quarter of the calendar year, thus capturing 27 percent market share. Our new STYLISTIC line is the ultimate mobile worker. Innovative features include a built-in fingerprint sensor for maximum security and an indoor/outdoor display for unrestricted open-air mobility.



Yes, they are a small PDA OEM, like most WM PDA OEM's, with small numbers, but a bit like BMW and Mercedes, they make a high end luxury product and is doing well in the market. PDA's are part of their total mobility solution, and they have been in the market for more than 4 years. Their product sells well, and they plan to enter the American Market next year. Their upcoming product will again be best in class, and will have everything the Loox 720 has, accept for a CF slot, in a smaller package, with the addition of a video accelerator, video out, and GPS receiver.

Soon Simony, even you will have a chance to try a high end device, instead of being forced to go Walmart value all the time.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
AdamaDBrown @ 12/11/2005 2:35:06 PM # Q
Looking at the WinCE/PPC/whatever OEMs say 5 years ago - how many of them are still around today?

One of the three: HP survived and bought out Compaq. Casio retreated to Japan. The minor players died off.

Now let's take a look at the three major Palm OEMs from 5 years ago: Palm survived and bought Handspring. Sony retreated to Japan. The minor players died off.

The computing market isn't a static thing, it's continually changing. To expect it to settle out into a simplified triad the way that the auto industry did is unrealistic. Despite marketing hype, not every device is intended to be a be-all/end-all, and there is no "victory" in the market. That's what led to the decline of Palm: resting on their laurels. If you're not always moving, if you're not always advancing the ball, then you're losing, period.

It's OK to cry after being biotchslapped, Simony.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2005 3:03:04 PM # Q
I feel your pain.



Well... not really.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/11/2005 4:08:39 PM # Q
Bonaparte said it best:

'Men, in general, are but children of a larger growth.'

Napoleon was a small man, Simony
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2005 4:28:26 PM # Q
In every measure...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/11/2005 9:40:56 PM # Q
The computing market isn't a static thing, it's continually changing. AGREED

To expect it to settle out into a simplified triad the way that the auto industry did is unrealistic. SUGGEST YOU CONSULT ANY MICROECONOMICS TEXT ON CONSOLIDATION OF INDUSTRIES. THE IDEA THAT THE COMPUTER INDUSTRY IS SOMEHOW 'DIFFERENT' FROM OTHER INDUSTRIES WAS VERY FASHIONABLE DURING THE DOT.COM BOOM (NOT SO FASHIONABLE THESE DAYS).

Despite marketing hype, not every device is intended to be a be-all/end-all, and there is no "victory" in the market. AGREED, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT OUR 'WM ADVOCATE' SAYS.

That's what led to the decline of Palm: resting on their laurels. IF BY 'DECLINE' YOU MEAN 'MAKING PROFITS', I FOR ONE WOULD LIKE TO SEE A LOT MORE OF A 'DECLINE'. IF BY 'DECLINE' YOU MEAN NOT BEING AT THE BLEEDING EDGE OF INNOVATION, I COULD CARE LESS (MAYBE).

If you're not always moving, if you're not always advancing the ball, then you're losing, period. AGREED, SUBJECT TO THE ABOVE.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/12/2005 2:32:53 AM # Q
Simony, just because things keep changing does not mean some OS's dont get extremely marginalized, to the point of extinction, especially if the technology is outdated. I see the Commodore 64 OS a lot these days ... , being sold in the mall as part of handheld gaming systems.

POS may be elegant, but the technology is outdated. Thats why its between WM, Symbian and Linux (whether running a Palm API or not). Or are you still waiting for the resurgence of the horse and cart industry because the car industry keeps changing?

Stop living in the past Simony...

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
AdamaDBrown @ 12/12/2005 3:04:12 AM # Q
SUGGEST YOU CONSULT ANY MICROECONOMICS TEXT

Different models? Maybe, maybe not. Different speed? Absolutely. The auto industry has changed very little since its inception--the technology has evolved, and the add-ons have gotten better, but at its core my Bonneville doesn't really do things *that* differently from a 1950s Ford.

The computer industy, however, has the habit of revolutionizing itself every few years. Things are practical today that were impractical two years ago, and inconceivable five years before that. An industry that moves at that kind of pace can't be easily predicted, and certainly can't be neatly divided into winners and losers. A company that was a big winner a year ago might get fed to the meatgrinder six months from now. Now I may not be Warren Buffett, but I don't think that you can reasonably wait to the big crunch at the end of the universe to see what companies were left standing when the last bell rang. You've gotta judge winners and losers as they go, and if a "winner" ends up getting eaten by the pack, that's the market.

As for the auto industy, they're suffering the effects of investing in gas-guzzling suburban tanks while giving campaign money to people who let the oil industry set energy policy. I have little sympathy for people who get into bed with crooks, then get screwed.

By "decline," I mean going from 90% marketshare to 30%. You can pooh-pooh the cutting edge all you like, but cutting edge makes sales.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
freakout @ 12/12/2005 3:44:57 AM # Q
Surur said:
"POS may be elegant, but the technology is outdated. Thats why its between WM, Symbian and Linux (whether running a Palm API or not). Or are you still waiting for the resurgence of the horse and cart industry because the car industry keeps changing?"

Fortunately, Palm still has a year or two before the cracks in Garnet *really* start to show. Then fanboys like myself had better hope Palmsource/Access comes up with goods...

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/12/2005 6:52:29 AM # Q
> POS may be elegant, but the technology is outdated. Thats why its between WM, Symbian and Linux (whether running a Palm API or not). Or are you still waiting for the resurgence of the horse and cart industry because the car industry keeps changing?

So let me get this straight.

M$ take an obsolete version of the Windows 3.x, they cripple it so that it can run using the limited resources of a handheld computer, they hack around with it every 18 months or so (adding a new overlay of icons and eyecandy as they go), and this is what makes POS outdated?

Surur, you are not a 'WM advocate' at all - you are a sheep in geek's clothing.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/12/2005 7:19:04 AM # Q
> SUGGEST YOU CONSULT ANY MICROECONOMICS TEXT

The computer industry may change more quickly than some others, but change is a common aspect of many industries. No industry, however, is immune from market forces.

Let's take the clothing industry. Fashions change rapidly - at least twice a year and different fashions prevail in different places - it's hard to think of any industry which changes its basic products more rapidly. Yet, the production, distribution and marketing fundamentals remain much the same from year to year, regardless in the change in the products.

Or let's take consumer electronics, or plastics, or pharmaceuticals, ... etc, etc. You can easily come up with a list of industries which change their product lines frequently, but the same economic forces apply again and again, year after year.

Slogans such as 'innovation at the spead of thought' may sell books, but they do not supplant the harsh economic realities.

I have gone off on a tangent again. Back to the main point. Who where the WinCE/PPC/whatever OEMs 5 years ago? And how many of those claimed that they were world-beaters? And how many of them are still in the business today?

And, finally, why should the current crop of 'world-beaters' be fare any differently?

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/12/2005 7:40:44 AM # Q
Simony, thats ridiculous. WM is much more Win NT like than Win 3.1. If there is any OS that bears a resemblance to win 3.1 is POS. If you knew what you were talking about you would know why.

As I've said earlier, this conversation is so 2004. Everyone knows POS is ripe for replacement. If Access does not get on with the job then the competition will.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
fishtastic @ 12/12/2005 7:46:09 AM # Q
Simony quote
"M$ take an obsolete version of the Windows 3.x, they cripple it so that it can run using the limited resources of a handheld computer, they hack around with it every 18 months or so (adding a new overlay of icons and eyecandy as they go), and this is what makes POS outdated?"

Do you really believe this? Do you really believe WinMob is based on 3.x? Really?

Now I am very interested in you comments and comparison to the auto industry. There is no reason why computer related tech should defy the laws of economic gravity and not follow previous trends of consolidation. Historically, the savings made by new technology have gone to the consumer (where there are no monopolies), competition between providers sees to this. Product manufacturers need to push down prices and this can most easily done by buying in and integrating complex stuff like an OS etc and this is most easily done with MS rather than POS.

Ooops got to carry on doing some work, doh.

Fish

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Simony @ 12/12/2005 7:53:06 AM # Q
> Everyone knows POS is ripe for replacement

And everyone knows that WM will be replaced by Vista.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Surur @ 12/12/2005 7:59:39 AM # Q
This is starting to sound very kirvinesque. So POS is perfectly good enough, and WM will be replaced by Vista in 2007?

I see the pocketpc 2000 launch OEM's were HP, Compaq, Casio and Symbol. All three are still making windows mobile devices. I dont really know what you are getting at.

This conversation would have been more appropriate of POS was still 80% of the market, vs 36%

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

And Simony goes down for the count...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2005 1:16:11 PM # Q
Surur, have mercy on Simony. In this battle of wits, he's unfortunately unarmed. Destroying his (bizarre) arguments is about as difficult as shooting fish in a barrel.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
AdamaDBrown @ 12/12/2005 1:31:49 PM # Q
Or let's take consumer electronics, or plastics, or pharmaceuticals, ... etc, etc. You can easily come up with a list of industries which change their product lines frequently, but the same economic forces apply again and again, year after year.

Thanks for making my point. None of these industries, despite rough competition, has turned into the same kind of triopoly that the auto industry has. The instability of their markets prevent it.

Although I must admit, what this has to do with the original point, which was whether or not a device is considered a success, is quite beyond me. Looking back, the train of thought seems to have derailed somewhere.

RE: Palm Treo 700 feature clones already!
Foo Fighter @ 12/12/2005 2:53:14 PM # Q
*Queue Gary Owens voice*

The part of Jeff Kirvin will be played by Simony.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Another fatal case of Kirvinitis?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2005 2:55:47 PM # Q
Thanks for making my point. None of these industries, despite rough competition, has turned into the same kind of triopoly that the auto industry has. The instability of their markets prevent it.


Of course somehow that minor fact that in the new global economy there are now over a dozen major automobile manufacturers selling cars in the USA (even if you ignore the inbreeding). GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Hyundai, Isuzu, Volkswagen, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo, Saab, Kia, etc... As with PPC/Windows Mobile, as some older manufacturers die off, others come in to take their place. Simony's arguments usually blow up quite spectacularly in his face and this is no exception.

Although I must admit, what this has to do with the original point, which was whether or not a device is considered a success, is quite beyond me. Looking back, the train of thought seems to have derailed somewhere.

It's called "loosening of associations", "flight of ideas" and "tangential thinking" - and it's one way to diagnose Simony's unfortunate illness.

TVoR


You beat me to it, Kent!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2005 3:52:54 PM # Q
The part of Jeff Kirvin will be played by Simony.


;-O

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

A tangent about the history of technology
PenguinPowered @ 12/12/2005 5:50:25 PM # Q
If you take the time to carefully analyse the history of various transportation industries, such as railroad, aviation, and automotive, and then the history of electronics, there are, in fact, significant simularities.

It is in the nature of market economies that industries tend to have very wide ranging innovation in the early days followed by a weeding out period leading to a small number of market leaders followed by a slow-growth period. Industries then tend to go into a cycle of brief bursts of innovation creating new market opportunities leading to a new range of players leading to a weeding out cycle leading to another slow growth period.

The one key thing that has made this trend seem different in the computer industry is minaturization and cost reduction. Moore's law is the only significant difference between the computer and other electronics industries versus more traditional industries, but even its consequences are starting to taper off.

One of the things that tends to throw people when they compare the computer industry to other industries is that they don't realize how old the industry is, or how much of the innovation was done long ago. But the industry dates back to the late 1940s, making it more than 60 years old, and much of the innovation was done by the end of the 1960s, meaning that most of what we've seen over the last 35 years hasn't really been technical innovation as much as it has been applying Moore's law to make the systems smaller and cheaper.

Is a 2005 Honda much different than a 1950 Chevy? Depends on how you look at it. On the one hand, they both use a key to start, drive using a steering wheel, run on gasoline, have four wheels with inflatable tires. No big difference, right?

On the other hand, the Honda is smaller, lighter, safer, more energy efficient, more reliable, less hassle to maintain, and so forth, due to an acummulation of evolutionary changes.

Is a 2005 PDA much different than a 1965 research work station? Depnds on how you look at it. On the one hand, they both use a GUI, are meant for a single user, have non-keyboard input devices and a graphic display. No big difference, right?

On the other hand, the PDA is smaller, lighter, more energy efficient, more reliable, less hassle to maintain, and so forth, due to an accumulation of evoltuionary changes.

The big difference? The auto industry is twice as old as computer industry.

In fact, since the only thing that's really changed between the 65 research workstation and the 05 PDA is size and cost, while thousands of things have changed significantly about the car, one could argue that its the computer industry that's stuck in a rut and the automobile industry that's got all the innovation going on.


Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

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Will the 700w Come with Silver Earbuds?

LiveFaith @ 12/5/2005 7:16:05 PM # Q
Testing photos seem to show a new set of earbuds that match the phone. Will Palm include such a set that allows switching between MP3s and voice calls?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=165030#165030

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Will the 700w Come with Silver Earbuds?
freakout @ 12/6/2005 12:46:51 AM # Q
Headphones can make for *excellent* free marketing - see the iPod's distinctive white headphones.

If Palm are planning on including stereo earbuds, they should think long and hard about how to make them distinctive - so when you see someone wearing them, you instantly think "Treo".

It would be disappointing to see just a plain old silver pair of earbuds that are a dime-a-dozen with cheap portable CD players.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Will the 700w Come with Silver Earbuds?
LiveFaith @ 12/6/2005 10:41:09 AM # Q
You're right. Palm should go with a orange & white checkerboard theme to set themselves apart!
http://tennessean.com/slideshows/2002/sports/ut_mst_91/photos/13.jpg

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Will the 700w Come with Silver Earbuds?
freakout @ 12/6/2005 7:40:23 PM # Q
While I am a big fan of two-tone colour schemes, a big "UGH!" to orange and white design...

Blue and white, now there's colours i wouldn't mind hanging from my head...

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

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