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Comments on: Treo 650 & TripKit Giveaway Winner

Thanks to everyone who participated in our Treo 650 & Treo TripKit Giveaway. There were some really great travel stories submitted.

Congratulations to Roger S. from Tucson, Arizona whose entry was randomly selected as the winner.

Stay tuned for more contests and giveaways from PalmInfocenter and a big thanks to Palm for providing the prize.

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Congratulations

fupis @ 12/15/2005 7:03:44 AM # Q
Hello!

Congratulations for the winner. I hope this Roger is not the user "rogerrub" (http://www.palminfocenter.com/profile.asp?ID=24482) that have two entries on the contest.

Alexandre

RE: Congratulations
Strider_mt2k @ 12/15/2005 7:13:34 AM # Q
(cough)
sour grapes
(cough)


RE: Congratulations
dckiwi @ 12/15/2005 11:21:16 AM # Q
Recount!
RE: Congratulations
Admin @ 12/15/2005 1:41:28 PM # Q
no it was not that Roger. Anyone who had more than one entry was disqualified.
RE: Congratulations
ReneeRoberts @ 12/15/2005 2:58:02 PM # Q
Congrats, Roger!

The Treo 650 is a great smartphone! :-)



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Thank you!

Stogy @ 12/16/2005 12:00:36 PM # Q
Thank you all to PalmInfocenter.com and Palm for the contest and for selecting me as the winner. I really appreciate it as well as the good wishes of those who have commented. I am looking forward to the arrival of the package soon. Thanks again for everything!

Rstogy
You're in for a treat.
freakout @ 12/17/2005 6:25:15 PM # Q
Congrats!

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: Thank you!
Simony @ 12/17/2005 11:25:53 PM # Q
Congratulations, Roger.

Completely off-topic - I just participated in the Treo 650 user survey conducted by Palm. They were asking for feedback about the Treo 650 features and what my I'd like to see on my next Treo. Since I abandoned my Treo to go back to my TE2, the message I tried to get across is that the next Treo should not have a keyboard, and it should be thinner and lighter. (LiveFaith, I wish you would send your Treo 670 mock-up to Palm as an example of what we want.) Was anybody else asked to do the survey?

RE: Thank you!
freakout @ 12/25/2005 9:15:05 PM # Q
"...the next Treo should not have a keyboard, and it should be thinner and lighter..."

In other words, make it a great PDA and a completely useless phone/messenger? :P

Thinner and lighter, sure, so long as there's no real noticeable difference in battery life. But how do you propose people send SMS and email on the go, if there's no physical keyboard or keypad?

Where'd you get the survey invitation, Simony?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Thank you!
Simony @ 12/26/2005 3:26:29 AM # Q
I got an email from Palm, inviting me to do the survey by hitting an internet link. I guess I was just picked at random from those who bothered to register their Treo 650s. (The funny thing is that I have stopped using my Treo, because my TE2 works better for me.)

The keyboard on the Treo is something that you either love or hate. I can tell that you love yours - all power to you. (Personally, I just prefer to write with Grafitti.)

RE: Thank you!
freakout @ 12/26/2005 9:06:55 AM # Q
"...I can tell that you love yours..."

Does my sig give it away? ;)

Seriously though, it's not just because my own personal preference is for physical buttons that I argue for the new Treos to retain them - to me it makes better business sense for Palm too. Asking mobile phone consumers to essentially learn another written language (okay, Graffiti is more like a dialect) in order to fire off an SMS - *and* having to break out the stylus every time... I think the Treo 180g didn't do too well for that exact reason.

Of course, this should really be a moot point. What would be really innovative would be if Palm just started including cellphone radios in *all* their devices, regardless of whether they were phones or not, for complete data coverage everywhere. Hopefully, it won't be too long before we see something like LiveFaith's Treo 800 - which would really be a killer device. Although I personally prefer his Treo Flipper design. For obvious reasons. ;)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Thank you!
Simony @ 12/26/2005 6:59:26 PM # Q
I agree 100% with everything you say (but I still prefer to write with Graffiti).

RE: Damn you!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/27/2005 3:22:05 PM # Q
Seriously though, it's not just because my own personal preference is for physical buttons that I argue for the new Treos to retain them - to me it makes better business sense for Palm too. Asking mobile phone consumers to essentially learn another written language (okay, Graffiti is more like a dialect) in order to fire off an SMS - *and* having to break out the stylus every time... I think the Treo 180g didn't do too well for that exact reason.

Exactly. Most people will find the one handed navigation + Treo keyboard faster and MUCH more intuitive that using a stylus.

Of course, this should really be a moot point. What would be really innovative would be if Palm just started including cellphone radios in *all* their devices, regardless of whether they were phones or not, for complete data coverage everywhere. Hopefully, it won't be too long before we see something like LiveFaith's Treo 800 - which would really be a killer device. Although I personally prefer his Treo Flipper design. For obvious reasons. ;)

Unconnected PDAs have no reason to exist in 2006. With Bluetooth and inexpensive parts being available, every PDA should now have Tungsten W-like abilities. In most situations for MOST users, it's preferrable to carry a single device. Palm is currently not giving PDA-centric (as opposed to phone-centric) customers much reason to want to buy new hardware. It's a shame that a 2 year old PDA (CLIE TH55) and a 2 year old smartphone (Samsung i500)
are the best traditional PalmOS hardware ever released. Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA, Staples, etc all cut back on PDA sales because the manufacturers have failed to create designs as appealing as the iPod, failed to reposition PDAs as something more exciting/essential than PIM devices (e.g. video players, wireless Internet tablets, email devices, MP3 players, digital cameras, etc.) and simply stood by as cellphones began to feast on the PIM-only market. PDA as PIM-only is a dinosaur. The irony is that with very little effort or expense, PDAs could be capable of regaining their former glory. Why hasn't Palm licensed TCPMP and bundled a SIMPLE one step DVD conversion program? Why are there no PDAs with 5 megapixel cameras (or even 3 MP)? Why did Palm wait so long to bundle a decent MP3 player? Why can't Palm bundle a STABLE email program? PDAs aren't dead - they're just being suffocated by poor design, greed and lack of common sense.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Thank you!
PenguinPowered @ 12/27/2005 5:07:50 PM # Q
Skippy says the PDA isn't dead. Just make it into something different than a PDA and it will be great again. Gee. The minivan isn't dead, it just turned into an SUV.

And what shall we make the PDA into so that it isn't dead? Why the cellphone, of course. Been there. Done that. Even the cheapest cellphones run PIM aps. Old news.

The PDA as a class of consumer electronics device is dead, and adding media players to cellphones isn't going to bring it back. it's just going to add another class of cellphones.

It's ironic that Skippy brings up the ipod as an example. The ipod is the antithesis of the all-in-one device. It does one thing: it plays media.



Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

RE: Thank you!
Simony @ 12/27/2005 7:12:23 PM # Q
> PDAs aren't dead - they're just being suffocated by poor design, greed and lack of common sense.

Since you are such a devotee of Sony CLIE devices, I can understand why you say that.

My TE2 is very well designed (although it could be thinner and lighter). The TE2 is a quality product being sold at a great price. Everything about it (from the easy to use interface, to the great battery life, to the never forget memory, to the superb screen, to the marvelous form factor) makes a lot of sense. Thank you, Palm.

Deconstructing Marty (a.k.a. shooting fish in a barrel)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/28/2005 12:35:54 PM # Q
Skippy says the PDA isn't dead. Just make it into something different than a PDA and it will be great again. Gee. The minivan isn't dead, it just turned into an SUV.

When Subaru station wagon sles were tanking, Subaru was smart enough to jump on the current craze and reposition their vehicles as SUV, even though they really didn't do much to change their fundamental designs. Sales skyrocketed. Marketing 101. Palm needed to do a similar repositioning of their PDAs but were too stupid to see the wireless email, MP3 player, smartphone and media player trends coming. Palm lucked out and got the Treo Liferaft because Handspring was about to go bankrupt, but they continue to be clueless about how to make their PDAs appealing to the average consumer. If what you're offering isn't selling, offering more of the same year after year with barely perceptible incremental upgrades is a recipe for extinction. Without the Treo, Palm would probably already be toast.The fact that you fail to grasp this underscores just how out of touch with the real world you are, Marty.

And what shall we make the PDA into so that it isn't dead? Why the cellphone, of course. Been there. Done that. Even the cheapest cellphones run PIM aps. Old news.

Make PDAs into multifunction devices that do most of what the single function devices do with little size or weight penalty. Last I checked, iPods were still selling in HUGE numbers. How hard would it be to freshen up a Zire 31 and reposition it as an iPod killer? http://www.palm.com/us/products/handhelds/zire31/
Get a custom version of Pocket Tunes, add a 6 GB hard drive (or ship it with an SD slot and a 1 GB SD card included), improve the color screen, add a slick industrial design with a few fashionable colors, and add dedicated buttons to bring up and control Pocket Tunes. BOOM! Sit back and watck the money roll in during the Christmas buying season. I lost track of how many stores I went to that were sold out of iPods before Christmas. We could have been saying that about Palm as well. Instead we saw ever-dwindling PDA displays (in the few stores still selling PDAs) with a couple of beat-up, crashed Tungsten E2, Tungsten X and Lifedrive models getting severely ignored by iPod and cellphone-crazed shoppers. Give the people what they want. If MP3 players have been hot for the past 2 years, why not sell an MP3 player that just happens to also be a hell of a PDA as well? Or a RAZR clone that just happens to also run a (stable) version of PalmOS?

The LifeDrive (and Tungsten X) could easily have been repositioned as media players/Internet tablets/wireless email devices/MP3 juke boxes. How hard would it be to ship a $2 cable that sends the headphone output to the RCA inputs in a home stereo system and also a car adapter for these models? Position the LifeDrive as the ultimate MP3 player that goes from being part of a home stereo system to being a car player to an office player to an everwhere else player. Include file management software for downloading files from Windows computers and a storage slot for a tiny USB cable. License TCPMP and some software to rip DVDs into video files that can be viewed on the devices. Put adequate RAM in them so they won't choke on the data and destroy the user experience. Digital cameras are also doing well - how about putting a decent 2 or 3 MegaPixel camera into a Z31 or redesigned Z22? Why does a company that's fighting for its life like Palm is continue to make such retarded decisions? While we now realize that Palm has given up on PDAs and is repositioning themselves as primarily a cellphone company, in doing so they're throwing away a lot of easy money that a little marketing - an even less effort - could have brought them. Why? Palm already has all the pieces to the puzzle. They just continue refuse to assemble what anyone wants to buy. It's not like Palm needs to get creative and offer a high quality Micro PalmTop with keyboard, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, cellphone radio and USB host ability. They just need to put some sauce on yesterday's meatloaf that they keep selling.

The PDA as a class of consumer electronics device is dead, and adding media players to cellphones isn't going to bring it back. it's just going to add another class of cellphones.

Nonsense. What people like you fail to see is that PDAs offer a major advantage that cellphones cannot: screen size and physical space to add features.

It's ironic that Skippy brings up the ipod as an example. The ipod is the antithesis of the all-in-one device. It does one thing: it plays media.

And that one-dimensionality is the iPod's major weakness. So far Apple's slick marketing (and their competitors' ineptitude) has kept their sales boiling. The fact that people actually lined up for the iPod shuffle shows how gullible consumers are. Eventually, the sheep will figure out that Emperor iPod has no clothes. But by then, Steve Jobs will be busy selling them the latest craze to sweep the nation: his Gooey iPoo™.


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Thank you!
PenguinPowered @ 12/28/2005 3:25:53 PM # Q
Jeez, Skippy, make up your mind. Are you arguing, as you did earlier, that the PDA needs a real redesign, or are you arguing, as by your Subaru example, that the PDA only needs superficial marketing? (Aside: you're wrong about how Subaru accomplished their sales uptick, but that's a whole different topic.)

How hard would it be to position as an iPod killer? Hmm. Let me think: How did Apple freshen up the iPod? Clue, the latest music only player isn't called _giant_, it's called _nano_. You are not getting what it is about the iPod that makes it popular, (although size is only a small part of it.)

By the way, an iPod-killer would have to be a significant one-up on the iPod. You're describing a me-too device.

The screen size argument is an interesting one. It plays to the all-in-one crowd. It plays against the small-is-beautiful crowd. Guess which crowd is larger? (Hint: even Treo fans want it to be smaller.)

Why is Palm dumb? That's a more interesting question. I think they're dumb for the same reason you are, in this context: they keep wanting "PDA" to be meaningful. "Convergence" also means loss of initial identity. What you're really suggesting isn't that the PDA be reinvented, but rather that Palm recognize that it needs to get out of the PDA business and into the consumer electronics gadget business.

But that's their real problem. They're not big enough to go toe-to-toe with the real CE companies, so the only strategy left would be to be a boutique. The problem is that being a boutique is hard. You don't get the iPod by slapping together an mp3 player. You get the iPod by combining an mp3 player with industrial design, iTunes, and a sense of what's hip.

Palm lacks industrial design skills, a sense of what's hip, and an iTunes replacement. So they stick with corporate sales, rather than CE as their main focus. Hmm. What do corporations want? the opposite of hip, and that's what Palm is giving them.

But even corporations get tired of too much dull.

Marty Fouts

I survived PalmSource '05

PDA's are under-promoted
Surur @ 12/28/2005 4:23:14 PM # Q

Why are ads like this not on TV?

http://www.mrock.com.au/promo/o2/index.php

PDA's are wonderful gadgets, and people like gadgets. Eventually all stupid gadgets will become smart. PDA's have a head start at this, but they are under-explorer, under-exploited, and under-promoted. When the Ipod X finally does diary, Excel and phone calls, will they be great because they only do one thing, or because Apple knows how to do it right?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Smartphones, on the other hand, are not
cervezas @ 12/28/2005 5:27:45 PM # Q
At least the Treo 650 seems to be getting no shortage of promotion. Going through O'Hare a couple of weeks ago I counted no less than four prominent ads (banners, wall-size posters, or taxi signs) for the Treo--more than I saw for anything else there. That was just walking between the gate and the rental car shuttle stand. It's not TV, but nothing else comes close to having that kind of exposure in the airports I travel through. And since the main thing you see people do in airports is use their mobile gadgets it makes a lot of sense to target your message there.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Thank you!
Simony @ 12/28/2005 6:02:09 PM # Q
> PDA's are under-promoted

That's funny, I thought that you (as a self confessed 'WM Advocate') were taking every opportunity to promote WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever PDAs.

RE: Thank you!
Surur @ 12/28/2005 6:36:05 PM # Q

As soon as I get that TV show I will let you know...

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Marty Fouts: specious as ever
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/28/2005 6:51:10 PM # Q
Jeez, Skippy, make up your mind. Are you arguing, as you did earlier, that the PDA needs a real redesign, or are you arguing, as by your Subaru example, that the PDA only needs superficial marketing?

I believe that PDA design should be pushed to the next level, but I'm also realistic enough to realize that Palm is not innovative enough to create an advanced design. Palm could never have produced innovative designs like the Treo 600 or CLIE UX50. They also could never come up with clever derivative designs like the iPod Nano or CLIE TH55. Palm has no industrial design skills, no marketing skills, no control over their operating system, very little money and is not big enough to compete with the big boys in consumer electronics. So what DOES Palm have exactly? They have Handspring's Treo design, an evaporating head start on the smartphone competition, an enthusiastic - but waning - fan base, and a large application library.

(Aside: you're wrong about how Subaru accomplished their sales uptick, but that's a whole different topic.)

Suuuuuuuuuure, Marty.


How hard would it be to position as an iPod killer? Hmm. Let me think: How did Apple freshen up the iPod? Clue, the latest music only player isn't called _giant_, it's called _nano_. You are not getting what it is about the iPod that makes it popular, (although size is only a small part of it.)

If you think SIZE is the main reason iPods dominate, you're even more dim-witted than you seemed to be (if that's humanly possible). How about the importance of marketing/buzz, momentum, name recognition, price, industrial design and intuitive interface? Could those possibly have had anything to do with the iPod's success? Do you think?

By the way, an iPod-killer would have to be a significant one-up on the iPod. You're describing a me-too device.

Really? I'm not familiar with the iPod model THAT IS ALSO A PDA THAT CAN RUN 20,000 PALMOS APPLICATIONS. Which iPod is that, Marty?

The screen size argument is an interesting one. It plays to the all-in-one crowd. It plays against the small-is-beautiful crowd. Guess which crowd is larger? (Hint: even Treo fans want it to be smaller.)

Palm is a in a niche market, but as sales of the bigger iPods show, consumers are willing to buy portable devices that are larger than cellphones. Apple gives them a reason to buy. Palm doesn't.

Why is Palm dumb? That's a more interesting question. I think they're dumb for the same reason you are, in this context: they keep wanting "PDA" to be meaningful. "Convergence" also means loss of initial identity. What you're really suggesting isn't that the PDA be reinvented, but rather that Palm recognize that it needs to get out of the PDA business and into the consumer electronics gadget business.

No, they're dumb for the same reasons YOU are: they thought they were a lot smarter than they actually were and ended up falling flat on their faces once they were proved to be wrong. Fortunately, people and companies with those traits often remove themselves from the gene pool. I assume you have no offspring, Marty?

But that's their real problem. They're not big enough to go toe-to-toe with the real CE companies, so the only strategy left would be to be a boutique. The problem is that being a boutique is hard. You don't get the iPod by slapping together an mp3 player. You get the iPod by combining an mp3 player with industrial design, iTunes, and a sense of what's hip.

Now you're starting to figure it out. Well done, Marty. Perhaps there's hope for you yet. (Probably not.)

Palm lacks industrial design skills, a sense of what's hip, and an iTunes replacement. So they stick with corporate sales, rather than CE as their main focus. Hmm. What do corporations want? the opposite of hip, and that's what Palm is giving them.

But even corporations get tired of too much dull.

No, corporations want safe, familiar, reliable and functional. Palm's not hitting the mark on a lot of those traits these days. Add Palm blowing their opportunity to become entrenched as the de facto wireless email standard 2 years ago, "free" push Exchange email with the latest Windows Mobile, loss of control over PalmOS and an extremely unimpressive hardware lineup and it's a wonder ANYONE's buying Palms these days. Take Handspring's Treo out of the equation and Palm would already have written its final entry on fcukedcompany.com.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Thank you!
ChiA @ 12/28/2005 7:45:05 PM # Q
Marty said The ipod is the antithesis of the all-in-one device. It does one thing: it plays media.

Not true, even the iPod is encroaching on what used to be PDA territory. In addition to your songs, videos and photos it:
- can be a storage device for all your other files, maybe even a bootable drive with an OS!
- can sync your calendar and contact info with Outlook
- has world clock, stopwatch and alarm functions
- comes with four games

Not to mention that the iPod supports more languages than Palm OS Garnet!

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield

RE: Thank you!
hkklife @ 12/28/2005 11:48:43 PM # Q
Adding text/data entry---EVEN the most rudimentary, mundane form via a clicker or scroll character-by-character text entry (think enterting text using a game console joypad) would devastate Apple's amazingly intuitive interface.

It'd also add needless complication for the 99% of the iPod fanbase that does nothing else but play music on their iPods. Does anyone even play those games? Like it or not, the iPod is a SUPERB music player, a mediocre (at best) video player, and a poorer-than-a Pilot 1000 PDA/organizer/game machine.

If Palm ever wants the LifeDrive to have a snowball's chance in catching the 'Pods, then they need DRASTICALLY better industrial design, build quality, stability, and OOBEs. As Voice said, Palm doesn't have the cash, expertise, or the motivation to address any of those issues. The above shortcomings also handicap them when trying to sell to the corporate crowd.

Again I ask the question: How does a company post good growth and some nice profits riding on the coattails of an aging & unhip smartphone design and not release a single new FLAGSHIP (Treo) product in all of calendar year '05? And the biggest entry for '06 looks nearly identical to its '04 predecessor and is arguably inferior in several aspects (screen resolution, button shape/layout).


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Thank you!
ChiA @ 12/29/2005 6:08:08 AM # Q
Adding text/data entry On reflection, most people rarely add to their address book whilst out and about. They use it as a reference for those important numbers you need. For these people, the iPod's address book is adequate, especially as it's a 'freebie' with the music player. For those of us who regularly meet new people, there's the PDA or smartphone. In fact even what are considered dumbphones have PIM functionality. I point to the Sony Ericsson K750/W800 yet again. Functionally, with the exception of running PalmOS, a touchscreen and full QWERTY keyboard, it offers everything the Treo 650 does - k750 has a more stable email client too.

If 95% of the Treo 650 functions are available from even a dumbphone, then why is the Treo such a hot seller? Maybe because:
- Palm PDA owners upgrading to a Palm Smartphone
- people like the Treo 650 form factor
- people find Treo easier to use than their other phones
- people are ignorant of what their mobiles already offer

If it's largely because of the first two reasons then the Treo train will run out of steam as competitors imitate. The question is, who's imitating who with regards to form factor? The Blackberries have the form factor which Treos should have i.e. no aerial and Blackberries have been around a lot longer than Treos.

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield

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