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Comments on: Palm Treo 700w Now Available from Verizon

Palm Windows Mobile Treo 700w ~ Click for largerPalm and Verizon today announced the Palm Treo 700w smartphone goes on sale tomorrow, January 5th. The Treo 700w smartphone is the first Treo smartphone to run the Microsoft Windows Mobile operating system. It is also the first Treo to operate on Verizon's high speed EV-DO data network.
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Better than expected (on paper)

hkklife @ 1/4/2006 4:11:21 PM # Q
128mb!! NICE! BT 1.2 is welcome too. Basically, it's the TX hardware with a few bells'n whistles thrown in.

Of course, I'll wait for the 700p. Still, this 'un today and the Garmin news from yesterday makes for a nice 1-2 punch to kick off the new year.

I wish Verizon would knock the Treo 650 waaaay down in price to clear 'em out. I'm guessing the 650 is the final POS Treo we'll see on Verizon. Sprint seems to be much more "receptive" to POS than Verizon or T-Mobile.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Better than expected (on paper)
fishtastic @ 1/4/2006 10:55:56 PM # Q
Is it my imagination or is the Treo line getting uglier?

Fish

RE: Better than expected (on paper)
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 9:36:36 AM # Q
This whole thing it photoshop!!!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
Reply to this comment

Unified Messaging

freakout @ 1/4/2006 4:33:37 PM # Q
Intriguing. Email looks to be integrated into the 700w's version of the Messaging app. Does this mean the same is going to happen with the 700p? Might we be saying goodbye to Versamail?

And with the two 700 models having seeming to be virtually identical, is the 700p going to get 128mb of RAM too?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Unified Messaging
hkklife @ 1/4/2006 4:45:39 PM # Q
According to the reports over on TreoCentral, the 700p runs FrankenGarnet 5.4.7 and does not have a megapixel camera. They just said it has radio & RAM updates ove the 650.

I predict the 700p will have 64mb RAM, the same VGA camera as the 650, EVDO, Garnet 5.4.9 and the "new" button styling of the 700w.

Palm will intentionally keep the 700p a bit less feature-rich than the 700w in order to bring it in at a lower MSRP *and* to detract from the 700p's clear resolution advantage over its Windows brother.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Unified Messaging
joad @ 1/4/2006 4:54:27 PM # Q
128MB RAM... whoa, I guess Palm decided that 16-22MB of RAM really WAS ridiculously low ... (finally).

I hope hhklife's predictions are wrong that Palm will now be intentionally crippling the PalmOS versions of the Treo compared to the WinceMob atrocity. But maybe in making the deal with M$ they were forced to agree to something along those lines?

As for the marginally crappy camera, with such little internal memory you can't put many pics into the address book anyhow - the files might as well be as small as possible.

Lots of the rumours were wrong on the final specs of the 700w. Hopefully the real 700p specs are also much better than we fear.

RE: Unified Messaging
hkklife @ 1/4/2006 5:19:46 PM # Q
joad;

First of all, Solitaire IS still there. Look on Palm's bundled software list on their site.

Secondly, I hope I am wrong too with my predicted specs. But you are about as cynnical as anyone else here on PIC, aren't you? You should expect for Palm to cut corners whenever possible. I am honestly stunned by the strong featureset of the 700w. Aside from the feeble screen resolution and no built-in Wi-Fi (flash on the camera'd be nice too!), this thing is pretty much loaded, especially by standard Palm specs.

I figure the reasons for possibly neutering the 700p are two-fold.
#1: M$ subsidized the 700w so heavily that Palm could put plenty of $ into the hardware and still make a mint. Either that or M$ INSISTED on a strong featureset.
#2: Palm had to, as you said, agree with M$ to intentionally cripple the 700P so it'd be seen as the "lesser" of the two. I'd imagine this is similar to how Palm agreed to cripple the BT on their latest handhelds in order to keep from upsetting Verizon during the 700W exclusivity wooing process.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Unified Messaging
AdamaDBrown @ 1/4/2006 5:20:02 PM # Q
Freakout, the Messaging app is default WM5 equipment, so I wouldn't expect any significant change in the Palm equivalent.

By the way, the 128 MB is flash, which is shared between storage and the OS. According to the existing specs, it's more like 60 MB free. Still not bad, but not 128 MB.

RE: Unified Messaging
freakout @ 1/4/2006 5:28:45 PM # Q
If Palm *does* cripple the 700p, it's a very, very ominous sign for future PalmOS devices. But wouldn't the other carriers get rather snippy if Verizon gets this flashy, high-spec device while they get a reheated 650?

Hopefully, Palm will see value in keeping the devices on an equal footing and not pissing off their small but dedicated Treo fanbase. (ignores howls of laughter from all the cynics around here :P )

If I don't get a better camera in the next one, I for one won't be upgrading. What would be the point? Really, the only thing that's preventing my 650 from being a replacement for *everything* is the crappy camera.

If they don't provide a visible, tangible improvement over the 650, then no-one will upgrade. The 650 was really just an evolutionary upgrade, but damn, that screen sure was pretty compared to the last model...

Similarly, there'll need to be something that current 650 users can look at and lust after. Not just under-the-hood improvements, but something we can use and see too.

End ramble.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Unified Messaging
rsc1000 @ 1/5/2006 2:57:06 PM # Q
>> Really, the only thing that's preventing my 650 from being a replacement for *everything* is the crappy camera.

Wow - these things are really subjective i guess!
I think most would say that the things that keep the treo 650 from being perfect are:
- stability / compatibilty issues
- freakishly low memory (c'mon - this one completely outranks the low-res camera!)
- lack of wifi
- no EVDO/UMTS (3G)

...lets fix / omprove the core stuff first. A better camerta would be nice though.

RE: Unified Messaging
freakout @ 1/5/2006 4:33:40 PM # Q
"stability / compatibilty issues"

I won't deny that these exist, but (at least for me) they're certainly not the disaster that online forums occasionally make them out to be. Bottom line: I can live with a 20sec soft reset every day or two. My 650 is very nicely stable and has handled everything I've asked it to do, with great aplomb.

"freakishly low memory (c'mon - this one completely outranks the low-res camera!)"

Actually, this one's on the bottom of my list. I've got a 2gig SD card and most stuff is stored on that - 9mb still free on the device. It would be *nice* to have more internal memory, but I'd rather have cheaper SD cards, or even a second SD slot.

"lack of wifi"

Don't need it. Don't really want it either - it would mean extra price and a shorter battery life. Compatibility with the SDIO Wi-Fi card would be nice though for people who want the option. It looks the the 700 models will rectify this.

"no EVDO/UMTS (3G)"

Again, the 700 series will fix this.

Anyhoo, like you said - these things are really subjective ;)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Reply to this comment

Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.

Surur @ 1/4/2006 4:47:14 PM # Q
It has been confirmed on a production unit.

32MB RAM, 13 MB free after boot.

http://tinypic.com/jpflu1.jpg
http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?p=6485809#post6485809

So much for the efficiency of the POS being why POS devices have so little ram. They were just stingy all along.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
hkklife @ 1/4/2006 5:01:37 PM # Q
Surur;

Palm.com has already been updated for the 700w

memory
128MB (60MB user accessible) non-volatile

I am reading it here now with my own eyes....60mb isn't stunning but it's a huge improvement over ~23mb or whatever the 650 had available at launch!


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
Surur @ 1/4/2006 5:12:00 PM # Q
Thats 60 Mb user accessible storage. They never say how much actual RAM is accessible in any of their devices, but for most POS devices its between 4 and 16 MB. Who cared about storage if you cant load or run your software?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
joad @ 1/4/2006 5:12:03 PM # Q
http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700w/specs.epl

"memory 128MB (60MB user accessible) non-volatile"

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
hkklife @ 1/4/2006 5:16:35 PM # Q
Am I seeing double here? LOL!

Surur do you mean the heap size in most Palm devices? That varies from model to model. The T3 went as high as 12mb of heap and most of the "better" OS5 models had 8mb. I think the new TX has 5mb. No Palm that I can recall right now ever had 16mb of heap memory.

Is there anything like UDMH for WinMob devices?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
Surur @ 1/4/2006 5:21:28 PM # Q
UDMH is about running software from places other than built-in storage, isn't it? Thats already standard on WM. The problem is the low "heap size" in WM. It wont be enough to run many large programs at the same time, or load many large web pages in Netfront for example. With conservative use (e.g. for a business user) it will probably be OK. Also by reducing the number of start-up software (exactly the same as in windows) you can increase the RAM available after boot.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
freakout @ 1/4/2006 5:43:38 PM # Q
UDMH is a hack that alters the heap size on the fly, depending on how much the app needs. You can set a preset amount of memory to put aside or have it automatically adjust. It's essential for games like zDoom or Quake.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
Surur @ 1/4/2006 5:59:57 PM # Q

WM5 does not do that kind of memory management. It sounds a bit like the slider in WM2003SE.

Did you know the palmaddict.typepad.com web page when loaded is a whole 24 MB big? The Treo 700 will just die if anyone tried to load it.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 9:37:52 AM # Q
Leave it to M$ to require a Cray Supercomputer on chip just to make their bloatware surf web pages.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
AdamaDBrown @ 1/5/2006 12:52:08 PM # Q
24 MB is insanely huge. A guy did a study of mobile web browsers, and found out that the average page takes 800K to 1.5 MB of RAM to load.

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 2:52:54 PM # Q
A better question is this, Surur:

Why would anyone want to bother with the dammed rah-rah pompom waving, head-in-the-sand nature of PalmAddicts? (No, I am not being a crass America-I have nothing against Sammy & co. personally)

If they didn't have so many pictures of kittens & redundant stock images of old handhelds their page wouldn't end up being 24mb! It's more of an endlessly scrolling blog than an actual mobile news site anyway. They should have a text-only "mobile" version of it anyway like TreoCentral & PIC have.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
rsc1000 @ 1/5/2006 3:09:10 PM # Q
>>Did you know the palmaddict.typepad.com web page when loaded is a whole 24 MB big?

What are you talking about exactly? maybe i'm missing something but when i load palmaddict.typepad.com and check properties it shows 238k (or 238872bytes). Most websites are significantly less than a meg (sure there are lots of exceptions but the average is a fewhundred KB at best).

RE: Only 32 MB RAM (not 60) Palm is stingy.
Surur @ 1/5/2006 3:58:26 PM # Q

If you load a page the images get decompressed, taking up ram. On your desktop, look at your free ram and swap ram (in the task manager). Load palmaddicts and see how much RAM it uses. Even better try loading it (with images on) on your Palm.

I actually like PalmAddicts. After the Treo 700w was announced the have become a lot more cosmopolitan in the devices and OS's they cover. They still Palm biased, but they are very regularly updated, so you often read news there first. I sometimes wonder whether they have more " Associate Writers" than actual readers. Their forums are certainly empty enough.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Reply to this comment

WIFI!

Slam @ 1/4/2006 5:04:30 PM # Q
Sure its an add-on card,
Sure its only 802.11b,
Sure its only WEP,
Sure it has no memory,
BUT at least they have one available for the Treo 700W.

See the accessories available for T7W...

Good sign of things to come. We can only hope.

RE: WIFI!
Slam @ 1/4/2006 5:20:49 PM # Q
And this card is being sold as compatible with the Treo 700 with better features...

http://www.socketcom.com/product/WL6207-600.asp?View=Specs

hopefully there will be one with memory...



Reply to this comment

NO SOLITAIRE?!??

joad @ 1/4/2006 5:14:43 PM # Q


RE: NO SOLITAIRE?!??
LiveFaith @ 1/4/2006 5:38:56 PM # Q
Quit whining when Palm has finally delivered! They finally replaced Grafitti 2!!! :-D

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: NO SOLITAIRE?!??
KultiVator @ 1/4/2006 6:39:03 PM # Q
Yes - and they've fixed the clipboard limit... by re-purposing some of the transistors they saved by only giving the 700w a 240x240 display!

Progress huh?


KultiVator

RE: NO SOLITAIRE?!??
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 9:39:35 AM # Q
What fun is a Palm without the clipboard limit! It'll never sell.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
Reply to this comment

How Long???

KultiVator @ 1/4/2006 5:30:43 PM # Q
So the burning question has to be... how long until we expect to see the Treo700p on sale?

April 2006?

Fingers crossed for a spec that will pleasantly surprise us all and short-circuit all the thoughts about MS negotiating duff specs (for the 700p) into the 700W contract. Palm has negotiated duff specs on its handhelds for the past few years **without** any help from Mr Gates!


KultiVator

RE: How Long???
freakout @ 1/4/2006 5:40:24 PM # Q
Hopefully, there will be some substantial, demonstratable improvements over the 650. Otherwise, why will their already happy users upgrade?

As you say, fingers crossed....

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: How Long???
SeldomVisitor @ 1/4/2006 5:45:53 PM # Q
Actually, the REAL burning question is:

== How long until the TREO 700W is actually shipping in quantity to end customers?

We're talking PALM here, right?

"Available" doesn't mean what you and I would expect nor ever has with HAND/PLMO/PALM.

RE: How Long???
LiveFaith @ 1/4/2006 6:03:08 PM # Q
>Actually, the REAL burning question is: == How long until the TREO 700W is actually shipping in quantity to end customers?

Why on earth is that question burning? Seems more like a little warm at best. I mean how many units are you actually trying to buy anyway?


BTW, somebody with the same username posted this comment on the Jan. 5th 700w story:

At least ya labeled the article 'Rumor'...

????

Palm's got it, VZW announces it, the guy over at HoFo / TC picked one up at the VZW store and posted pix. Does it take a Kenworth + 53' box trailer load over at WalMart before it's actually real?

I'm confused.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: How Long???
SeldomVisitor @ 1/4/2006 6:12:15 PM # Q
Huh?

Reply to this comment

The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!

LiveFaith @ 1/4/2006 5:49:26 PM # Q
Will January 4th forever stand in imfamy as the day that The Empire took us hostage?

... and the were singing bye bye Miss American Pie (Palm OS), drove my Chevy (Cobalt) to the levey, but the levey was dry (licensees). Them good ole boys (Yankowski & Nagel) were drinking whisky & rye and singin' this'll be the day that I die. ... the day the muuuuuusic died. : - o

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!
Surur @ 1/4/2006 6:09:04 PM # Q

Depends how buggy it is. If it has the other WM5 problems (slow, Activesync meltdown and not waking from suspend) then POS has nothing to fear.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!
KultiVator @ 1/4/2006 6:27:07 PM # Q
Goodbye my friend (Garnet) it's hard to die, when all the birds (cynics) are singing (being verbally cynical)in the sky (PIC forums). Now that the spring (possible Linux based replacement) is in the air. Pretty girls (a final slew of OS5 models) are everywhere (well, will be).

We had joy, we had fun, sold our platform, then did run.
But the hills that we climbed, came from execs being blind!

(The next verse sounds like it was written for Nagel without much in the way of alterations!)

Nuff said. I'm off to bed!


KultiVator



RE: The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!
Surur @ 1/4/2006 7:19:06 PM # Q
http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700w/today.epl

The features listed here are pretty cool, and it looks like Palm has really made an easy to use phone.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!
Gekko @ 1/4/2006 8:28:18 PM # Q

I think the Reverend just had an acid flashback from his pre-saved days.



RE: The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!
hawkspy @ 1/5/2006 5:19:57 AM # Q
I think that the windows 5.0 flirtation may not be without its ptoblems. 5.0 is being roundly decried on various net sites for its lag in usage - particularly the O2 atom - which I have to point out has a 416Mhz processor. And having used one - it is unbelievably slow - unusably. The other issue with 5.0 is that MS still havent sorted it out so that when you "close" a window by tapping the x sign - it actually just minimises it - so very soon you are running multiple apps on a very very slow (and I do mean painfully slow) OS which can only be closed by tapping into the "memory" settings module of the unit and manually stopping all progs. As I say - having used the higher speced atom and seen reviews of other Win mob 5.0 devices - I think a 312 processor is going to lead to some unhappy users used to the Treo 650 snappiness (for all its other faults).



Where do We Go Nowwwwwww?!

- Sir Axl de Rose, 1986

RE: The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!
Surur @ 1/5/2006 5:27:14 AM # Q

It doesnt need a faster processor, it needs faster flash memory. Apparently this is coming however. Ive heard 25 x faster flash rom is coming in the next few months. (cf. the much faster SD cards one can get these days)

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 9:43:11 AM # Q
... Sound like progress to me. Thanks Bill & Steve. :-D

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: The Daaay the Muuuuuusic Died!
hawkspy @ 1/5/2006 12:36:59 PM # Q
....needs both actually - really think this device is going to be sloooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Look forard to a less bulky (PalmOS) Treo with WiFi though...

Where do We Go Nowwwwwww?!

- Sir Axl de Rose, 1986

Reply to this comment

That's nice, but this is a Palm website.

pmjoe @ 1/4/2006 6:57:02 PM # Q
Let's move on to some Palm related news.
RE: That's nice, but this is a Palm website.
Surur @ 1/4/2006 7:20:45 PM # Q

Thats 1src.com head-in-sandness. Is this a POS or Palm Inc. website?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: That's nice, but this is a Palm website.
Admin @ 1/4/2006 8:06:14 PM # Q
Well all of us here are Palm/PDA/Smartphone fans and are quite interested in what Palm Inc does, so thats why I cover the Treo 700w.

I'll also be posting a review of this sucker once I get a unit.

I personally don't think I'd use WM5 as my daily driver, I currently use the 650 and am much more interested in the 700p & Hollywood.

-Ryan

RE: That's nice, but this is a Palm website.
SeldomVisitor @ 1/5/2006 8:18:21 AM # Q
From the "post a message" page:

== "All Palm OS News, all the Time. PalmInfocenter.com"

is at the top - I thought it was at the top of all pages (but is not now).

In any case, perhaps it's time for an orientation change?

[of the sites I visit related to PALM/small-device stuff this one appeals to me the most - not sure why - but would (currently) hate to see it go down the tubes with an obsolete operating system]

RE: That's nice, but this is a Palm website.
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 9:18:56 AM # Q

the 700w clearly says "PALM" on the top of the device.

RE: That's nice, but this is a Palm website.
pmjoe @ 1/5/2006 9:38:57 AM # Q
I think it's perfectly reasonable to question how much of it's resources this website is going to put into the Windows Mobile platform.
RE: That's nice, but this is a Palm website.
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 9:45:01 AM # Q
Yeah PM. You're absolutely right. We need to form a mob and confront Ryan about the exact details of his intentions! If he's being swayed by the Sith Lord, then we'll demand refunds.

Ohhhh ... this site's free. :-
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: That's nice, but this is a Palm website.
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 9:46:56 AM # Q

resources are allocated proportionate to news and market share. your world has changed. deal with it.



RE: That's nice, but this is a Palm website.
WebMarc @ 1/5/2006 2:57:58 PM # Q
New PALM hardware on sale IS PALM related news. Get over yourself.

Who the HELL does this Ryan guy think he is?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 10:34:36 PM # Q
Yeah PM. You're absolutely right. We need to form a mob and confront Ryan about the exact details of his intentions! If he's being swayed by the Sith Lord, then we'll demand refunds.

Ohhhh ... this site's free. :-

Damn! It's been ages since I joined a mob. I was realling looking forward to us storming into Ryan's place brandishing pitchforks just like the good ole days...


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...

Gekko @ 1/4/2006 8:30:05 PM # Q

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3


RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
hkklife @ 1/4/2006 11:31:34 PM # Q
Gekko;

If this thing had been out a few months ago when you got your 650 would you have given even a 2nd thought to the 700w?

Who on here is tenatively planning on actually buying one? Ryan, maybe a poll or something for the front page?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
Foo Fighter @ 1/4/2006 11:33:57 PM # Q
No, the real spiral will begin later this year (spring most likely) when Palm introduces even more Windows Mobile devices, both in PDA and Smartphone form.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
cervezas @ 1/5/2006 12:04:05 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
Who on here is tenatively planning on actually buying one?

I probably will, but only so I can install Linux on it. :P

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
cervezas @ 1/5/2006 12:41:41 AM # Q
Ok, so I admire those who are still withholding judgment on this until more evidence is in, but I just have to say that it's looking a bit more likely that there really is a Windows Mobile Treo. ;-)

Still, the big questions remain:

What's the clipboard limit?

Does it have the same connector as any other Palm device that's ever been made?

I can still sync with Palm Desktop, right? Right?

Can I launch multiple instances of Styletap for that Cobalty good multitasking experience we've all been waiting for?

And the question that will reveal Palm's real motive for making the 700w: did they succeed in stamping out Graffiti 1 on the Windows Mobile side, too?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
twrock @ 1/5/2006 2:10:33 AM # Q
^^^
lol

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.
RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 8:47:52 AM # Q

hkk - I would have still bought my 650 even if this 700w was available at that time. Why?

1. I, like most of you, have a comfort level and a history with Palm OS. You tend to like what you know. I like/know Palm OS and I like/know/prefer Palm Desktop.
2. The 650/Palm OS still has a big user base and the 650 allows me to share info will friends/colleagues/business associates who are on the same platform.
3. Any new device these days needs some teething time untill all the bugs are worked out. The 650 was very buggy at inception, but after 3-6 months and a few ROM updates, it's rock solid. I believe that this 700w will be the same way.

With all this said, I will probably change to Windows Mobile at some point down the road. I think Palm, Inc. will continue to work with MSFT and help polish Windows Mobile and make it more intuitive and user friendly while at the same time MSFT will make it more powerful. This is truly the best of all worlds and it should be welcomed by all of us. I think the Windows Mobile user base with grow significantly as a result of this 700w and we will see many, many of these in teh market and it will eventually overtake Palm OS Treo sales.

My strategy is to keep my 650 for 2 years (August 2007) and then reevaluate from there. The 650 is an amazing device and it does what I need now. It's so nice to have a phone and pda so tightly integrated into one device.

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!!!


RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 9:33:12 AM # Q

There's no reason to buy/manage/charge/carry/sync/fight/fumble with 2+ devices when ONE Smartphone can do it all.



RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
LiveFaith @ 1/5/2006 9:50:33 AM # Q
Gekko wrote> "I, like most of you"

Why thank you Gekko. Man, you sound like you still have the Christmas spirit and some holiday cheer leftover. Amazing what fixing that 8-find bug can do for a guy! :-D

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Et tu, Beersy? Et Tu?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/5/2006 9:50:45 PM # Q
Ok, so I admire those who are still withholding judgment on this until more evidence is in, but I just have to say that it's looking a bit more likely that there really is a Windows Mobile Treo. ;-)

Still, the big questions remain:

What's the clipboard limit?

Does it have the same connector as any other Palm device that's ever been made?

I can still sync with Palm Desktop, right? Right?

Can I launch multiple instances of Styletap for that Cobalty good multitasking experience we've all been waiting for?

And the question that will reveal Palm's real motive for making the 700w: did they succeed in stamping out Graffiti 1 on the Windows Mobile side, too?


I'm going to call Dianne Hackborn right now about collaborating with StyleTap for a distro of StyleTapped Cobalt™. I'll bet StyleTapped Cobalt™ shows up on a real device before Cobalt does...



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: The PalmOS Negative Spiral Continues...
PenguinPowered @ 1/6/2006 1:58:08 AM # Q
I'm going to call Dianne Hackborn right now about collaborating with StyleTap for a distro of StyleTapped Cobalt™. I'll bet StyleTapped Cobalt™ shows up on a real device before Cobalt does...

I doubt Ms Hackborn is going to be interested in PalmOS one-offs. I believe she has other fish to fry and plenty to keep here busy, these days.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment

F you Colligan.

VampireLestat @ 1/5/2006 4:47:09 AM # Q
Take your Treo 700 W and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Time to dust off my HP hx2750 and take another look at WM and determine my migration options. Might be time to take another look at Dell.

RE: F you Colligan.
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 9:02:18 AM # Q

"What is the answer to 99 out of 100 questions? Money." - David Aames, Vanilla Sky

Reply to this comment

What a POS

tthiel @ 1/5/2006 1:27:55 PM # Q
David Pogue
A Marriage Not Made in Heaven

YOU thought the apocalypse was upon us when Apple switched to processor chips from Intel, which Mac fans had considered the Dark Side for more than 20 years?

Well, try this on for size: Palm's new Treo 700W cellphone-organizer runs on software from Microsoft. Yes, that Microsoft, whose palmtop software was mocked by Palm employees for years as bloated and inefficient.

What's next - a new radio show with Rush Limbaugh and Al Franken as co-hosts?

The first question, in Palm's case, is: why? The answer is: corporate sales.

For years, Palm has stood by, gnashing its teeth and losing market share, as corporate tech buyers lived and breathed the credo, "Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft." So maybe, thought Palm, it could join that party by offering its much-admired Treo phone with Microsoft inside.

The second question is: how?

From the beginning, Palm's and Microsoft's design philosophies were miles apart. Microsoft lived for long lists of features and 65 different ways to get at them, while Palm strove for simplicity and directness. (At one point, Palm actually employed a tap counter - a guy whose job it was to make sure no task required more than three taps on the PalmPilot's touch screen.) How on earth can these two approaches be reconciled?

As it turns out, not very easily. The Treo 700W ($400 with a two-year Verizon commitment) is a Frankensteinian mishmash. Some of its features are so inspired and well executed, you can't help grinning, while others are so clumsy, you smack your forehead.

IN the first category, you'll find a cluttered but fantastically useful new Today screen, your starting point and home base. It offers speed-dial buttons for your most frequently called contacts, displayed either as names or, cleverly, as photos.

The Today screen's Search box summons names from your address book as you type on the excellent micro-keyboard. In fine Treo tradition, you can generally pluck one name out of a thousand in your address book just by typing the person's initials. One more button press places the call or sends a message. You can also set up the Treo's alphabet keys as speed-dial buttons - B for Big Boss, for example.

The Today screen also lists your appointments and the number of unread e-mail messages. All of this information is synched effortlessly from Outlook on your Windows PC, either via a U.S.B. cable or (if your corporation uses Microsoft Exchange Server) wirelessly, over the air. Added-cost Macintosh compatibility is in the works from www.markspace.com.

Finally, the Today screen includes a Google search box that takes you directly to the Web. (Google? Does Microsoft know about this?)

Those are only some of the ways in which Palm has improved on the standard Windows Mobile operating system. You can tap VCR-like buttons (Play, Skip, Delete and so on) when checking your voice mail so you don't have to memorize keystrokes.

Conference calling is practically effortless on the Treo, compared with the standard Windows Mobile method (which involves shuttling between the Contacts and Phone programs). Palm has gone well beyond Microsoft's limited use of sound cues, too. For example, you can use MIDI files, MP3 files or even video clips as ringers for individual callers, as alert sounds or even as alarms to wake you in the morning.

All of this comes in the sleekest Treo yet, a gleaming slab whose glowing, domed keys and buttons are a delight to the fingertips. (Palm says that it has ironed out the hardware glitches that drew complaints on earlier models.) The usual Treo hardware goodies are here: a switch that instantly silences all sounds, a camera (with improved resolution - 1.3 megapixels), speakerphone, a beefy battery (4.5 hours of talk time), a slot for an SD memory card (to hold music, photos and videos), and a five-way rocker switch that lets you operate most functions with one hand and no stylus.

The Treo has always been a great little Internet machine, but the 700W takes a leap forward in speed. Because it can use Verizon Wireless's high-speed Internet network - called EV-DO by geeks and Broadband Access by Verizon - the 700W gets you online at nearly the speed of a cable modem, at least in major cities. (Verizon Wireless offers bundles like $80 a month for 450 minutes of calls, or $110 for 1,350 minutes, with unlimited EV-DO Internet use.)

Alas, even after all that plastic surgery, you can't escape the fact that you're basically running Windows.

For instance, you open programs from a tiny Start menu, which you activate by pressing a dedicated Windows-logo key. Fine, except that the Start menu has room to list only seven programs. For access to anything else, you must open the Programs folder. But even here, only nine icons fit on each screen, and no list view is available. So you have to do a lot of scrolling.

Like it or not, Windows Mobile also teaches you about memory management. Every time you open a program, it stays open in the background, even if you close its window. Sooner or later, you'll run into the "Program Memory Low" error message, requiring you to shut down programs manually in a special list box.

The 700W's beefed-up memory (60 megabytes free) makes this situation less frequent. Still, the whole ritual should be unnecessary. Doesn't anyone at Microsoft realize how silly it sounds to say, "Just a minute - I have to quit some programs on my phone"?

That's not the only hit to efficiency. Microsoft must believe that all its customers bill by the hour. Just rotating a photo requires four steps. The Treo 700W no longer has buttons for Calendar and Address Book, either; those functions are now buried in menus that require more steps to reach. Buttons for Mute and Speakerphone used to appear right on the Treo screen during calls. These, too, are now in menus. What once required one step now requires two - if you even know where to look for them.

Here's another example: On older Treos, you could write a new appointment directly onto, say, the 3:30 p.m. line of the calendar's Day view. Microsoft's version offers no such instant gratification. Instead, creating a new appointment requires choosing starting and ending times from pop-up menus inside a dialogue box. Only half-hour increments are available; let's hope you never have a 4:45 train to catch.

Palm didn't help matters by adding a prominent O.K. key, which actually means just the opposite. That is, instead of Yes, Go or Forward, it means Cancel, Back or Stop. You use it, for example, to cancel out of a dialogue box or window, to backtrack to a previous screen, or to close a menu without making a choice. It must have been designed by the same person who, in the full-blown Windows, put the Shut Down command in the Start menu.

Speaking of steps backward, Treonauts should note that the 700W's screen resolution is only 240 by 240 pixels, far coarser than the previous model's. (Palm maintains that this restriction is imposed by Microsoft's software.)

Verizon Wireless is the first carrier of this Treo - a surprising development since it was the last major cellular company to offer the previous Treo model.

Yet Verizon Wireless is partly responsible for the 700W's crippled Bluetooth (short-range wireless) features. For example, Verizon has turned off the feature that lets your laptop get online using the Treo as a wireless antenna. You can use a wireless headset, but the phone works only with some Bluetooth-equipped cars; the Toyota Prius, for example, isn't on the list. (If history is any guide, these features will be available from other carriers when they get the Treo 700W later this year.)

There are certainly bright spots in the 700W. It's brisk and responsive, it feels great in your hand and it does a lot of stuff. (In fact, the only modern cellphone feature missing is Wi-Fi wireless networking, which you can add with Palm's $100 SD Wi-Fi card.)

But considering that Palm's designers once worshipped at the altar of interface excellence, it's a shame that Microsoft's convoluted software has produced such an awkward marriage with the hardware. Longtime Treo fans, in particular, will be absolutely baffled by the new software layout.

Then again, the 700W wasn't built for longtime Treo fans (who, in any case, can still buy the older 650 model). It was built for corporate buyers, whose top priorities may not include providing the most pleasurable experience possible for the worker bees.

E-mail: Pogue@nytimes.com

RE: What a POS
Gekko @ 1/5/2006 1:45:17 PM # Q

nice. thanks for posting.

RE: What a POS
hkklife @ 1/5/2006 2:44:28 PM # Q
The 700p looks to be the holy grail of Treodom if it ever really materializes.

I'd settle for just a beefed up RAM 650 with EVDO and OS/app tweaks.

Ironic, isn't it....Palm's past two years of releases have been hampered by the creaky old FrankenGarnet for features & stability. Yet the iconic Palm UI & ease of use were always there. Now they get a powerful new Treo out running WinMob...and it ends up being a convoluted, baffling experience. But you KNOW M$ will continue to throw $ at it until they get it down pat. Now's the time for Palm to strike back with a 700p that combines the best of the 650 and the 700w, even if the hardware specs are mostly reduced.

P.S. Anyone think Colligan, Hawkins & co. still have the "tap counter" guy around?

P.P.S. I think the 700w would benefit from a LARGER formfactor. That'd allow the 240*320 screen as well as another two or four hardware buttons for launching apps. There's simply no way I could live with having to "launch" my contacts/calendar/memos from a menu! I got upset when the TX tried to move "Home" to a hard app button!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Reply to this comment

HTC making a nonTREO Windows smartphone for Cingular

SeldomVisitor @ 1/18/2006 6:27:47 AM # Q
HTC, who may be the manufacturer/designer of the Windows TREO (I'm just unsure but think so), is selling their own new smartphone via Cingular for $199...

-- http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/060118/telecoms_cingular_microsoft.html?.v=2


RE: HTC making a nonTREO Windows smartphone for Cingular
AdamaDBrown @ 1/18/2006 5:48:06 PM # Q
Yes, HTC does make the 700w (and the 650, for that matter). It's not exactly new, though, that Cingular is going to carry one of their units. Cingular already carries the 8125 PPC phone (a variant of the HTC Wizard) and Sprint/Verizon both also carry HTC models, such as the Apache.

Reply to this comment

And now only $99 for the 700w

SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2006 5:27:24 AM # Q
-- http://www.buy.com/retail/wireless/product.asp?sku=160002150&loc=12435&s=22&p=1&zip=0

Has to the fastest discount activity I've seen - the intro-month isn't even over.

RE: And now only $99 for the 700w
cervezas @ 1/27/2006 1:03:45 PM # Q
Ouch. Fastest discount indeed. What's up with that? I thought this was selling well.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: And now only $99 for the 700w
twizza @ 1/27/2006 1:36:02 PM # Q
It is selling well, that is what you call a market response to make sure that the purchasing decsions are not held up by the RIM/NTP decsion. Seeing an discount now (albeit with new contract and probably minium offer) is part tech slow down, and part making sure that the device stays in mind a bit longer.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: And now only $99 for the 700w
cervezas @ 1/27/2006 2:56:29 PM # Q
It is selling well, that is what you call a market response to make sure that the purchasing decsions are not held up by the RIM/NTP decsion. Seeing an discount now (albeit with new contract and probably minium offer) is part tech slow down, and part making sure that the device stays in mind a bit longer.

A defensive maneuver, no matter how you slice it. Don't tell me there wouldn't be unanimous proclamations of doom for the Palm OS if the 700p was discounted by 75% after less than a month on the market.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: And now only $99 for the 700w
rcartwright @ 1/27/2006 4:41:25 PM # Q
Err, before everyone rushes to start the "700w is DOOOOOMMMEED!" chant do the math. The buy.com site is giving a $150.00 voice and data plan deal and a $50.00 seperate buy.com promotion. The voice and data plan deal is about $10.00 a month MORE than the verizon wireless site deal and further is not for EVDO data speed. Both require a 2 year contract and at the end of the day, the "$99.00 phone" is now a $459.00 phone when you add the $360.00 in additional charges that you will incur over the life of the plan. I also suspect that getting this plan to EVDO speed (the only reason that I would A. deal with Verizon "we never stop working you over" and B. mess with even a Palmed version of WM)

TANSTAAFL folks.


"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: And now only $99 for the 700w
hkklife @ 2/6/2006 3:35:30 PM # Q
Rebates are WORTHLESS. Anyone chiming in with post-rebate price being a valid barometer of a product's success/failure is equivalent to Iraq's Minister of (dis)Information claiming that the American infidels are being crushed under their boots.

I judge a mobile communications product's "current market rate" by whatever the provider is charging for said device in their corporate stores, which is still where the lion's share of the general public buy/learn about/see the latest devices. Picky Amazon & buy.com rebate fullfilment houses, shady Chinatown resellers, web-only promos etc. are NOT real world gauges of a product's actual selling price.

The 700W is, what, $399.99 w/ 2 year contract & $100 rebate at Verizon corporate stores and that's the pricing I'll continue to go by.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Reply to this comment

Thousands of square screen applications for the Treo 700w

bobatstyletap @ 2/6/2006 3:27:14 PM # Q
StyleTap Inc. now supports the Treo 700w in its latest version (0.9.108) which is now available on our website (www.styletap.com). Users can now run thousands of programs originally written for Palm OS on their Treo 700ws.

BTW, I would recommend that anyone using it on a Treo 700w, should be sure to read the release notes http://www.styletap.com/index.php?page=release_notes.html.

I think that it interesting to note that a lot of WM applications do not run properly or are awkward to use on square screen WM 5 devices, but ironically Palm applications are a perfect fit.

Regards,

Robert Chew
StyleTap Inc.

Reply to this comment

I think this one is EOL already

SeldomVisitor @ 10/19/2006 9:17:48 AM # Q
How about you?

I wonder if Verizon is ordering any TREO 700WXs?

Is the 700P EOL, too?

What sort of customer for PALM is Verizon now?

Verizon & Palm--strange bedfellows indeed
hkklife @ 10/19/2006 9:39:51 AM # Q
I predict the 700w will quietly disappear after Christmas and the wx will replace it in early January. Verizon historically has a track record of a slew of new handsets to kick off the new year.

I think the 700p will stick around until Q2 '07. It'll either then be slowly phased out OR Palm may do a mild revision of the 700p & 700wx for Sprint & Verizon with the 680's formfactor. Also adding, in the case of the POS version, the 680's OS tweaks just to try and wring every last drop of life out of the CDMA POS market. At the very least, having the 680 & 750v/whatever for GSM and the 750p & 750w for CDMA networks would make for a unified, streamlined lineup.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

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