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Comments on: Palm Releases Update for the Unlocked GSM Treo 650

Palm has released the Treo 650 Updater version 1.20 for the Treo 650. This update is only intended for the unlocked GSM unit used in North America. This ROM update offers a number of improvements including enhanced voice quality, Bluetooth performance, improved browsing and Gmail support. More...
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What about the Dbcache issue?

palmdoc88 @ 1/19/2006 3:06:06 AM # Q
Hopefully this update fixes a couple of niggling bus on the Treo 650:

- Dbcache leaks. hen the Dbcache drops very low, the Treo is prone to resets
- The Treo (GSM) may freeze when accessing GPRS in low signal areas...



T3 & T5 user

RE: What about the Dbcache issue?
twizza @ 1/19/2006 9:50:50 AM # Q
Accrding to folks at TreoCentral who have installed this update, it does resolve that dbcashe issue u describe.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: What about the Dbcache issue?
lemketron @ 1/24/2006 7:48:15 PM # Q
Can anyone else comment on the GSM radio problems in low signal areas? I hope this is fixed in this update, but I haven't personally had a chance to try it yet.

The (not so) funny thing is that there's a PERFECT example of a low-signal GSM area on T-Mobile's network at the Palm campus in Sunnyvale. Alas, I suspect that most Palm employees are on other carriers. Whenever I drive by that (or another similar) area, I not only roam temporarily to Cingular, but when I get back to T-Mobile territory (just around the corner), GPRS often gets stuck in a loop of trying (and failing) to connect to T-Mobile Internet and T-Mobile VPN, usually until I reboot.

(Not that it would help in this case, but I really wish the T-Mobile VPN Internet profile wasn't locked so I could delete it!)

Reply to this comment

Why?

Arnage @ 1/19/2006 3:29:55 AM # Q
Why doesn't palm support their handhelds like this? They've never released this many updates for any of their handhelds and having to buy a new palm just to get the latest software isn't the nicest thing, especially for people like me that can't buy a new handheld every year.

RE: Why?
grimpeur @ 1/19/2006 7:05:50 AM # Q
Which handheld earns them the most revenue?

The Treo 650,

Guess which one they support the most...

RE: Why?
hkklife @ 1/19/2006 9:37:38 AM # Q
The ONLY handhelds Palm has ever seriously patched/updated are the Treo 650 and, to an extent, the T5/T|C. Otherwise, Palm just shelves 'em. I have to admit, Palm's been excellent about supporting the Treo but that just makes their UTTER lack of support for most of the rest of the product line all the more poignant. T|T, anyone? Zire 72 security bug, anyone? and the TX is terribly in need of an update or two to fix some of its shipping bugs. Hopefully with a tightening of the belt at Palm in regards to the PDA lineup, they'll offer fewer but more stable & better supported models in the future.

I've LONG maintained that the <$200 bottom feeder models (T|E variants, Zires etc) are fine with little to no support. But the pricier models (the Tungstens, LD and all Treos) should fall under some kind of "Support Assurance" plan on Palm's behalf.

Palm should guarantee at leat one major patch/update/bugfix and then one or more minor updates during each unit's life.

Case in point would be the LD 2.0 updatpe as its major update and then a mini bundle of updated VersaMail/Blazer/PTunes/DTG a few months down the line to bring it up to speed with whatever is shipping on the latest devices.

Palm should *ALSO* offer reasonably priced upgrades of the core apps on its own website. Not OS updates, mind you--just apps. Blazer, VersaMail and Media could all fall under a $15-$20 downloadable update bundle. E-Reader Pro, PTunes & DTG could all give slightly better discount rates for upgrading/updating if you are a registered user of the app via a pre-loaded Palm bundle. Look at how NormSoft is trying to screw TX & LD owners now with their "free" updates. But if they just gave all new Palm owners the option of getting the full version for say $10-$15 a lot of the complaining would be muted.

P.S. Palm wouldn't have issued more than one update or so for the Treo 650 were it not for the incessant demands of the carriers--Verizon especially--to fix "issues".

P.P.S. Any idea if this upgrades the BT stack to 1.2? Is the hardware even capable of that? I've heard mixed things on this from Treocentral & Brighthand.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Why?
Gekko @ 1/19/2006 12:14:52 PM # Q

hkk - will you please buy the friggin 650 already!

RE: Why?
hkklife @ 1/19/2006 12:26:58 PM # Q
Gekko;

Just trying to ride my contract out. I'd rather not pay the hefty Verizon ETF. Now that this update is out I'll definitely have to wait for one that's pre-patched out of the box---just one thing less to go wrong.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Why?
Gekko @ 1/19/2006 12:45:20 PM # Q

you're leaving Verizon??? I paid a $175 ETF to leave Cingular/AT&T to JOIN Verizon!!!

RE: Why?
joad @ 1/19/2006 1:25:55 PM # Q
Looking back, Palm seems to have taken pages from the SONY support playbook over the past few years: release the machine and move on to the next.

If you have ever been cursed to support a SONY workstation or laptop you know exactly how useless SONY support is - basically, "if we blew it in the firmware, just buy another one of our fine systems."

Palm USED to issue several patches for their earlier handhelds, but they do seem to be issued every blue moon now- even the Treo 650 took nearly 6 months after release to issue a usable firmware, all the while Palm denying there was nothing wrong that a 128MB SD card wouldn't meliorate. Better than Sony, but that's not saying much.

RE: Why?
hkklife @ 1/19/2006 2:41:02 PM # Q
Gekko;

It's cheaper for me to pay ETF on my current contract then re-up for a Treo 650 than it is to pay full retail for the 650 while in my old contract (I know someone at VZW who can supposedly give me a deal but it necessitates a 2 yr. contract)
I always like to get my stuff with the latest firmware/OS loaded onboard from the factory if at all possible.

joad et al;

In all fairness, I can count on one hand the products I've bought over the past few years that have received CONSISTENT, solid support from their manufacturers.

A few notable mentions:

1. ATI. Monthly driver releases for their video cards squash bugs and give occasional performance boosts. I maintain a fleet of Radeon-equipped (mostly) PCs between family, friends, work, and personal...every Radeon released since '00 is STILL the recipient of the latest driver set. That's sterling support--even better than Nvidia (who has fallen behind in the driver game as of late)

2. Casio. I've updated the firmware in my Z750 digicam 2x since May. They were just minor bugfixes & improvements but it's still nice to see that kind of support in a consumer level digicam.

3. Matrox. They are another graphics card vendor that's been consistently good about supporting their (otherwise lackluster) hardware. I haven't had one of their cards in several years but I still keep an eye on their workstation offerings.

4. Nikon. Another company with a good history for updating their cameras.

5. Plextor. Their optical drives are usually solid to begin with but you can always count on a few firmware updates for compatability & stability purposes.

6. Linksys. Good to see that being #1 hasn't made them complacent. They still release new firmwares & drivers and you can always hack your router with an unofficial firmware if you want something more powerful.

Palm, Sony, HP, Epson, Samsung, RCA/Thomson, Creative (at least for SoundBlasters), most no-name optical drive manufacturers and nearly ALL MP3 play manufacturers fall under the description given by joad. They just release something onto the market, hope for the best, and then work on getting the successor out in a timely fashion. A new trend I've noticed is abandoning printers for driver support. I had several lovely HP iunkjet & laser printers that were reasonably pricey in '99 & '00. Then in '01 I realized there were no proper XP drivers for it nor was HP going to ever write them.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Why?
twizza @ 1/20/2006 3:31:06 PM # Q
Man, you wine a bit much Gekko, cant blame you though. I got a refirb from Cingular for $150 and it has been flawless aside from one software issue. Great device, and justifably so, its supported well by Palm.

Hkk; heard from a friend that there may be one major update for all Treo 650s then that's it unless something major happens. From the sounds of that person, they felt that Palm is doing something big (and it was a Palm rep that spilled the beans about the slowing to an end 650 support downloads).

Other comment:
I agree, it would be smart as beans to make available seperate downloadable updates for VM, Blazer, and other apps. Make it into a n update that installs like the keyboard driver and call it a day. This would save support costs and company face in the long term.

I personally just want the tabbed WebBrowser 3 for my Treo. That would be the absoutley best browser, and its more than doable. Why NO DEVELOPER has made a web browser since the Xiino and NWeb folks is beyond me, but that browser is on point as what the Treo needs NOW.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Why?
hkklife @ 1/20/2006 3:48:53 PM # Q
Twizza;

So is THIS one the "big" final Treo 650 update? Or do you mean there's rumored to be one final BIG update after this one? My $ is on BB connect as nothing can be done about BT 1.2, EVDO or memory management via software.

If so, then that would fit nearly in line w/ my theory about it being the end of the line for highend POS Treos. Get the 650 to the best possible state its feeble hardware it capable of and then let it live out its natural life. By shoring up the 650's speed/voice quality/BT/stability and releasing a cheap "Lowrider" POS treo, it'll sorta artificially keep the 650 looking good in comparison for a while longer.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Why?
twizza @ 1/20/2006 3:54:13 PM # Q
According to Palm Insider this is teh big update. I dont think so.

In talking to my friend last night, he basically said that the 650 will recieve no more patches after this last round. In other words, its either TC-ish and stable enough to keep selling, or that its going to be phased out officially come the Fall release season.

He also in that same statement said that Palm would not do any patches unless something big comes, then he mentions that they say this with a smile. Personal feeling after hearing that is there will be a big update to come that will align the 700p with the 650 (for carrier support purposes). The only thing is that the only real 700p rumor (from Shadowmite state at TC) states that the 700 is only a memory and radio upgrade. That would be silly on Palm's side, but logical because of what we know of how they tweak and tweak. When the 700 was first rumored, I assumed that Palm would at least try one model with Cobalt just to see what would happen. The report earlier this year of a Cobalt phone at the PS DevCon said to me that it is at least possible that its out there. And if I were decision-maker at Palm, with my 75%+ crew of software folks, I'd make Cobalt work as one well planned and hapazardly executed just as a PalmOS is not dead note and would be just enuogh from Palm to keep the WinMob looked at as a side business. Why do 3OSes has been discussed before, its not smart, but if done right, would pan out (in either a buyout or WM take over, lest Access has even better devs).

So yea, thats all so far. Its kinda kool having people in places where they interact with Palm, and I thought just being a web developer and writer was fun :)

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Why?
Simony @ 1/20/2006 8:05:45 PM # Q
twizza,

Thanks for your post.

Going off on a tangent, I remember there was announcement sometime last year about the work Palm was doing with RIM. If I recall correctly, the idea was that Palm would release some software, early this year, which would allow Treo 650 users to use the Blackberry 'push' email service.

Have you heard anything more on this?

Palm magister est
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/20/2006 11:15:16 PM # Q
Have you heard anything more on this?

Patience, Grasshopper. Rome wasn't built in a day - but it was destroyed in one.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Why?
twizza @ 1/21/2006 4:22:08 PM # Q
TVOR;
I so would like to know who you are...you have something info wise that you arent saying that I have no idea about, and at the same time know it clearly probably. Hate to sound like a fan, but I would like to speak to ya personally (email) if you have the time.

Back on topic for a sec:
I still wonder about the 700p. If Palm really wanted to show committment to the PalmOS platform, why stick with Garnet, why not just roll all the marbles with Cobalt and call it a day. It might not be the smartest thing to do, but dang sure would raise some eyebrows (and according to some devs, piss folks off more).

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

Advocatus Diaboli
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/21/2006 4:58:54 PM # Q
in domus est.

TVOR;
I so would like to know who you are...you have something info wise that you arent saying that I have no idea about, and at the same time know it clearly probably. Hate to sound like a fan, but I would like to speak to ya personally (email) if you have the time.

In 2005 it was finally revealed that TVoR = Carl "Bluetooth" Yankowski. Shocking, isn't it? ;-O

Back on topic for a sec:
I still wonder about the 700p. If Palm really wanted to show committment to the PalmOS platform, why stick with Garnet, why not just roll all the marbles with Cobalt and call it a day. It might not be the smartest thing to do, but dang sure would raise some eyebrows (and according to some devs, piss folks off more).

If you like PalmOS PDAs, I'd suggest you do whatever it takes to find a new European (Bluetooth + WiFi) Sony CLIE TH55. Lock it in a safe. Use your Treo 650 or a TX until it breaks. Then gingerly unwrap the precious TH55 and use it for the next 5 years. Bill Gates has won the war (as usual). I suspect he had saboteurs working on the inside at Palm all along.

Commodore 64
Amiga
Newton
PSION
Palm

RE: Why?
twizza @ 1/21/2006 6:27:35 PM # Q
I believe that you are Carl just as far as I believe that a few other Palm and palmSource higher ups frequently comment on this board, plus its 2006 ;), no predictions have come true yet.

As for stock up, no need on my end, my 650 will last a good long while. I have been done with endless installing and trying of new apps for a good long time now and therefore my very stable setup should stay such for as long as I dont try another device, or find this one needing mechanical repair. And to quote Gekko, wont be going back to a two device solution if I can help it. Thanks for the advice though, always a pleasure.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

Smartphone Vs. separate PDA + cellphone?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/22/2006 3:02:37 PM # Q
As for stock up, no need on my end, my 650 will last a good long while.

Based on the quality of the Treo 650 I've seen, I doubt your phone will be functioning without major problems a year from now. Mark my words: your Treo 650 will be broken within a year. The TH55, on the other hand will give you 5 years of flawless, reliable PDA goodness. And it has a big, gorgeous screen, too.

I have been done with endless installing and trying of new apps for a good long time now and therefore my very stable setup should stay such for as long as I dont try another device, or find this one needing mechanical repair.

After 9 years of experimenting with all the latest apps out there, I too have decided to keep my PDAs stable with a tried-and-true set of apps (over 100, though!) I finally broke down and bought 5 or 6 apps through Palminfocenter in December, but I'm done with living as an app beta tester. Now it's all about FUNCTIONALITY and STABILITY. If you haven't downloaded Directory Assistant (by Rick Whitt), I suggest you do so ASAP. DA is probably the most useful freeware app you'll ever put on your Treo. Palm should license it + make it part of the ROM.

http://home.triad.rr.com/rlwhitt/palm/#da

And to quote Gekko, wont be going back to a two device solution if I can help it. Thanks for the advice though, always a pleasure.

As someone who had one of the first Treo 600 and then (in disgust!) went back to the separate (tiny) cellphone + (big screened) PDA route, each has it's advantages. I now use a Samsung i500 (always have PDA data with me, very high quality construction, excellent voice quality and it's the same size as a non-PDA cellphone) always and either a TH55, UX50 or VZ90 at work. The VZ90 is great for watching movies that have been converted or the occasional TV show recorded on a VR100K Memory Stick recorder. The UX50 is still my personal favorite because of its wireless abilities, small size, rugged case + keyboard. Had Sony simply released the OLED-screened version of the UX50, we would finally have had the PERFECT PDA, in my opinion.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Why?
twizza @ 1/23/2006 11:26:58 PM # Q
I agree, DA is excellent. I am trying to get other developers to work with it some to bring it to the forefront more (integration with programs such as Facer and keySuite for me personally would work, but that is the case with a ton of apps).

100 apps, that is really a whole lot. Either you are looking to replace your laptop in most instances, or just too many programs where one doesnt do plenty/enough well. Tis a shame the PalmOS has become like this, I really wish that some programs would just flat out merge with others and have a ball givng everyone a nice and stable environment. Me, I have about 50-60 apps. I use all of them at least once a day, VersaMail, Facer, SplashMoney, and most of the builtins (not PIMs as I use KeySuite) quite often. Any more than that and its really a matter of games, and the latest Astraware titles have been amazing for my limited time to play.

Bought a 600 in Sept. I had a T5 and T616. I was very impressed. I went soley to using the T5. Kept my ear to the ground for 700p dates, got a refirb 650 from Cingular Christmas week for 150USD. Cannot beat that price, and my service plan didnt have to change. Blessings to me in a sense. The 650 is solid for most, and all but a few issues I have figured out. There are a few (datamanager and PIMsync) that can cause some nasty issues though. I wish Palm would just fix those, but that doesnt seem to be happening. Clie's were nice, but never good enough for me. They had the features, but never the polish that Palm devices had. Simple works for me, and that's why I am confident in the 650.

Thanks for the civil replies, plesant convo for sure.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Why?
freakout @ 1/25/2006 6:08:45 AM # Q
Voice said:
"Based on the quality of the Treo 650 I've seen, I doubt your phone will be functioning without major problems a year from now. Mark my words: your Treo 650 will be broken within a year."

I have marked your words, and in exactly two months and 17 days, I'm going to call you on them, Voice. :P

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Reply to this comment

Non American Treo

pascanu @ 1/19/2006 4:06:13 AM # Q
The update page says "For North American customers only." I have an unlocked Treo650 purchased from Europe and I wonder if the update would work for me. My guess is that the only problem would be the absence of localized settings (languages). Can anyone confirm/infirm my suposition? What happens if the update fails? Can I revert to the original settings (reinstall update 1.13 for example)?

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72 -> Treo650
RE: Non American Treo
Sonic Boom @ 1/19/2006 6:29:31 AM # Q
I went to the European Palm web page:

http://euro.palm.com/europe/en/support/downloads.html#Treo650

Then I clicked on "Treo 650 Updater (for Unlocked GSM phones)."

IT ONLY HAS 1.13 UPDATER!!!
:-(


RE: Non American Treo
Gekko @ 1/19/2006 12:15:49 PM # Q

see - socialism has its disadvantages.



RE: Non American Treo
KultiVator @ 1/19/2006 1:18:06 PM # Q
Gekko... Europe.... socialism?

Time to recover your head from Planet-Rectum!



RE: Non American Treo
joad @ 1/19/2006 1:33:49 PM # Q
Rectum? Damn near killed 'em.

Absolute rubbish
freakout @ 1/19/2006 4:14:07 PM # Q
Why exactly do North Americans get this update and not the rest of us? Does Palm simply not care, or is there a technical reason?

Not happy!

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Non American Treo
freakout @ 1/19/2006 4:20:02 PM # Q
http://tinyurl.com/c7q3r

^^ I take it back - there IS an Australian update. I should probably dig a bit deeper before ranting next time...

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Non American Treo
asiayeah @ 1/19/2006 7:51:07 PM # Q
Thanks for the link. The page says: "For Asia Pacific customers only". Is there any real difference between the two versions of updates?

The HK support website has not yet been updated, however,
http://www.palm.com/hk/ie/support/downloads/treo650updater/unlockedgsm.html

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: Non American Treo
ChiA @ 1/19/2006 8:00:59 PM # Q
freakout said:
Why exactly do North Americans get this update and not the rest of us?

I'm guessing but maybe it's got something to do with Palm having to make the update compatible with more carriers and languages in Europe than in either North America or Australia.


As for Gekko, seeing how all we Europeans are fervent socialists and communists, why don't you enlighten us - or rub it in our faces with glee - just how the "American Way" gives you update 1.20 whilst thanks to our "ubiquitous" socialism, we in the Union of European Socialist Republics end up with only 1.13?

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield

RE: Non American Treo
joad @ 1/19/2006 8:48:52 PM # Q
Maybe Gekko's ranting because all you "commies" over there (and everywhere else in the 'First World' except America) have access to decent health care or something. Maybe he owns an insurance company and fears losing his 20-30% "market" commission off other people getting sick if we ever get enlightened and go single-payer. Who knows.

I'm guessing Palm has to release their updates in some sequence, and perhaps they simply upload them to their HQ's country first. If this update finally addresses those repeated "out of memory" problems loading pages in Blazer with 4MB of free dbcache, then I'm proud to be an American and have access to the update first!

RE: Non American Treo
grahamnind @ 1/20/2006 5:00:50 AM # Q
1.20 is on the European site now

RE: Non American Treo
pascanu @ 1/20/2006 5:14:02 AM # Q
grahamnind @ 1/20/2006 5:00:50 AM #
1.20 is on the European site now

Wow! That was fast! I am impressed.

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72 -> Treo650

RE: Non American Treo
ChiA @ 1/20/2006 8:49:35 AM # Q
Being pedantic but 1.20 update is on the UK site now.


What was that you said about socialism's disadvantages Gekko? We can't hear you!
You're being awfully quiet about how God has blessed your America and condemned to damnation the rest of us in Europe and the world - who must be socialists and communists as we're foolish enough not to be Americans!

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield

God Bless Gekko and his Treo!
ChiA @ 1/20/2006 9:01:09 AM # Q
God bless Gekko! God bless the Treo! God bless America!
To hell with the rest of the world - socialists and communists every single one of them.
They're all out to slaughter every single American and pry away our Treos from our cold dead hands.
but...
please....
please....
...just please keep the oil flowing, even if you are communists.

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield
RE: Non American Treo
KultiVator @ 1/20/2006 9:36:02 AM # Q
Gekko is good at provoking level-headed folks into outbursts like this.

He acts like a spoilt brat in need of a good slap.

Anyhow, Europe can't be such a bad place - I've just heard that there's a 7 tonne whale swimming up the River Thames (Gekko - that's a big stretch of water that runs through London - birthplace of modern democracy!). The whale would normally swim in the Atlantic, but reports suggest it has been scared off by the verbal polution being emmitted by our friend Gekko the RedNeck!


InSultiVator

RE: Non American Treo
KultiVator @ 1/20/2006 9:43:49 AM # Q
Yeah - if the sh*t sticks... throw it!

Reply to this comment

Freezing problem

asiayeah @ 1/19/2006 7:52:57 PM # Q
My Treo occasionally freezes (becomes at least 10 times slower suddenly), especially under low signal areas.

Does this patch fix this problem?

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: Freezing problem
freakout @ 1/19/2006 11:56:53 PM # Q
^^ I've experienced a problem where my Treo sometimes freezes if I lose signal entirely during a call - but this has only happened once or twice. I have yet to install the patch, and it's the sort of thing that's hard to replicate (given the nearly ubiquitous mobile signal in the area I live in), so it may be awhile before I know the answer to that...

You might want to try the forums on Treocentral. They're much more tech-support friendly, and there are quite a few knowledgeable Treo owners there. Perhaps one of them could help you.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Freezing problem
palmdoc88 @ 1/20/2006 6:35:38 PM # Q
A user in this thread who has faced GSM freezing problems in his area says so far no freezing

http://forum.mypdacafe.com/viewtopic.php?p=90893#90893

T3 & T5 user

Reply to this comment

FANTASTIC update! :D

freakout @ 1/20/2006 4:59:45 AM # Q
Quite simply, this update rules. There is a VERY noticeable increase in speed. My Treo used to take a second or two to power on, and the same amount of time to switch between apps. This was especially noticeable if switching from, say, PocketTunes to the Phone app, or the Phone to AvantGo.

Now? It powers on INSTANTLY when I press the power button, and the lag between apps has been reduced to half a second. At most.

Good job Palm. This bodes well for the 700p.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
KultiVator @ 1/20/2006 5:46:00 AM # Q
Talking of the Treo 700p - anyone seen any more rumours/leaks/info on this mythical creation recently (since Xmas)?

KultiVator



RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
freakout @ 1/20/2006 6:33:50 AM # Q
^^ I don't really believe it's mythical - I think the naming of the WinMob Treo as the 700W implies that there's going to be another 700P model(or just plain 700). Why bother with the "W" designator, otherwise?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
hkklife @ 1/20/2006 9:48:27 AM # Q
My guess is that the 700p is NOT coming out.

There WILL be a low-end (read: repackaged Treo 600 w/ NVFS) Treo released this spring/summer for both CDMA & BT markets but that's it. All future Treos will be WinMob.

At most we'll see a refreshed 650 offered for one or two carriers with 64mb RAM & newer software and that's about it. Palm is really between a rock & a hard place now. They should've introduced a proper 650 successor in mid to late '05 while the name "Treo" was still synonymous with POS.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
serpico @ 1/20/2006 12:53:54 PM # Q
Just to remind everyone, Palm did announce another 3 or 4 new Treo's coming out this year. Not all of them will be running Windows Mobile. For sure we should see at least another Windows model for GSM networks, but I believe the other models will be running Palm OS. Which version, no one knows.
RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
KultiVator @ 1/20/2006 1:07:49 PM # Q
My feeling (and that's all it is) is that most Treos will remain on Palm OS. What I'm hoping is that there will be a 700P and that the 'Hollywood' and 'LowRider' model numbers refer to something else altogether more radical & imaginative!

MotiVator

RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
hkklife @ 1/20/2006 2:52:38 PM # Q
4 new Treos were hinted at for '06:

1. 700w (already out)

2. 700w for GSM carriers, possibly slightly improved with software updates and/or more RAM.

3. Hollywood: Slim, stylish and antenna-less WinMob Treo for European market only (at least for the time being). Expect similar but slightly cut-down specs inherited from the 700w (lower resolution camera or slower CPU perhaps?).

4. Lowrider: Entry-level Treo (CDMA) similar to a Z22 & Treo 600 hybrid. Expect a smaller/lighter formfactor and something either iPod-esque (shiny white) or blingy looking (colored LEDs) etc.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
LiveFaith @ 1/20/2006 4:00:49 PM # Q
WOW! I can't believe this has not garnered more international media attention. Finally the Treo "700p" arrives!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
freakout @ 1/20/2006 9:25:41 PM # Q
Palm would be silly not to release a 700p. The 650 is selling like hotcakes; what harm would it be to update this popular product?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: FANTASTIC update! :D
joad @ 1/21/2006 12:10:02 AM # Q
I guess fixing the problems of the 650 by releasing a 700 with more RAM, etc. would probably kill off sales of the 650 which is "selling like hotcakes" because it's the only viable Palm smartphone besides the 600. Palm probably doesn't have the resources to support more than one Treo device per operating system.

It's pretty apparent Palm blew it good when designing the 650 (ie: no RAM, memory handling, hidden reset hole, etc), and must be happy they're getting away with these sales numbers by just tweaking the firmware. Putting out a 700p with some decent RAM numbers would likely kill off the 650 unless it's priced around $200 or so.

Good sales of the 650 mostly reflect the pent-up demand of people hoping for something better from Palm, but settling for the 650 because it's all they can get right now. The 650 is essentially what was destined to be released back in 2003 by Handspring if they had the cash on hand. Palm was able to fund the minor fixes like the screen and adding bluetooth and the removable battery. Then they apparently went straight into hacking the REAL improved hardware so that it would first run Windows More-Bile, but that's another thread...

Reply to this comment

...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!

hawkspy @ 1/21/2006 7:47:05 AM # Q
While immeasurably grateful for Palm's ability to provide a Treo 650 which is:
- stable
- has decent audio quality
- good bluetooth support
- reasonable memory allocation

and various other aspects of improvement on the original offering (to quibble that perhaps all of this should have been already on the thing at the outset may appear ungentlemanly to mention) but seriously - what is with the obstinate lack of WiFi provision 12 months down the track? How hard can it be? I mean - Palm - please! I resent paying 2.5G data download rates when I could use my wifi connection to do the same.

The abscence of WiFi support really rancours me. Seems really stupid.

Where do We Go Nowwwwwww?!

- Sir Axl de Rose, 1986

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
freakout @ 1/21/2006 3:42:08 PM # Q
^^ It does. Perhaps Palm are saving it as a reason to force people to upgrade to the 700w (which *does* have SDIO wi-fi) or 700p models.

In the meantime there's three options for 650 wireless net: the Enfora wi-fi sled, Shadowmite's wi-fi hack (which reportedly works quite well), or using the Bluetooth connection instead (easy to do at home, not so hard when you're roaming). See Treonaut's "reverse BT DUN guide", or download a copy a Softick PPP.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
freakout @ 1/21/2006 3:46:34 PM # Q
^^ SOrry, that should be "not so *easy* to do when you're roaming".

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
hawkspy @ 1/21/2006 9:16:58 PM # Q
Thanks - I looked into the Shadowmite hack but as far as I could see they never got it to work reliably...shadowmite's website seems to indicate that the driver in the end just doesnt work - or wont work without disabling GSM web browsing/email etc.

I have purchased the sled - hope its not too huge :( and am interested in the "Hollywood" if its a Palm OS unit...

Where do We Go Nowwwwwww?!

- Sir Axl de Rose, 1986

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
freakout @ 1/22/2006 2:24:14 AM # Q
^^ There are some good pics of the sled and a good review over at Treonauts:

http://tinyurl.com/b6bjq
http://tinyurl.com/d7f53

With the extra bulkiness also comes the advantage of its own seperate battery, and you can thus get much more life out of both it and your Treo.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 1/22/2006 6:45:53 AM # Q
PALM sells the vast majority of its TREOs to carriers and carrier-related retailers. Those guys make no money from Wi-Fi - they WANT "paying 2.5G data download rates...".

Don't expect any change whatsoever outta PALM w.r.t. phones w.r.t. this anytime soon - or until the carriers figure out a good way to make money from Wi-Fi.

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
hawkspy @ 1/22/2006 9:19:24 AM # Q
...that it not a logical statement. 700W allows SDIO WIFI so why not treo 650. Problem appears to be "S related rather than some conspiracy with the carriers...

Where do We Go Nowwwwwww?!

- Sir Axl de Rose, 1986

Carriers FEAR Wi-Fi
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/22/2006 1:10:36 PM # Q
...that it not a logical statement. 700W allows SDIO WIFI so why not treo 650. Problem appears to be "S related rather than some conspiracy with the carriers...

Actually, Hengeem is correct. Believe it or not, cellphone companies aren't stupid and they actually want to make a profit after having invested BILLIONS of $$$ creating the cellphone networks. Helping you avoid paying them more money by providing you with Wi-Fi handsets is not exactly a high priority for them. Go figure.

And if you add the threat of WiMax, suddenly the cellphone carriers are on VERY shaky ground. Imagine being able to make calls with an application like Skype anywhere within your local town/city. All from the convenience of your WiMax phone. I'd like to know what will stop half of the current subscribers (like mallrats that seem to have cellphones surgically attached to their ears) from dumping expensive cellphone contracts and moving en masse to WiMax. Voice quality (at least for some carriers!), reliability and added features like built in GPS may be the only reasons to stay with the traditional carriers.

I'd be interested to hear what anyone familiar with WiMax has to say about how cellphone companies can stop technology from bankrupting them. When I read about how Google has been busy buying a lot of unused bandwith (fibreoptic cable) and look at all the features they're now rolling out, it seems likely that Google is planning to start offering users free (or nearly free) Internet connection and (eventually) ad-sponsored Wi-Fi or WiMax phone service. I believe Google already has a test Wi-Fi hotspot at Union Square in San Francisco. These Google Guys are definitely a wild card...


I.M.

Ronin

Carriers vs Wi-fi
ChiA @ 1/22/2006 2:40:20 PM # Q
PALM sells the vast majority of its TREOs to carriers and carrier-related retailers. Those guys make no money from Wi-Fi - they WANT "paying 2.5G data download rates...

I appreciate both sides of the argument but I think even WiMax will need some investment into network structure and a means of getting a return on that investment.

True, in the UK, wi-fi is pretty much everywhere in urban areas (it's even on the London-Edinburgh trains!) but you have to pay around £6 an hour to access it on a casual basis; you can sign up with the providers for unlimited access but even that costs £30-£100 per month.

I think the carriers who prevent the Treo from using Wi-fi are being selfish and short-sighted; reasonable carriers will understand that, just as nobody is constantly talking on their cellphone 24 hours a day, there will be times when a customer will prefer to use wi-fi instead of the celllar network. After all, as of today, cellular network coverage is still much wider than that of wi-fi. We shall see what WiMax brings. Forcing people into a corner where they can't use wi-fi breeds resentment and the need to look for an alternative. Carriers not allowing people to use wi-fi may end up having the counter-productive effect of making WiMax networks more attractive and thus hasten the cellular network demise.

By the way, Orange UK has actually but its brand onto a WinMob phone with built-in wi-fi:
http://shop.orange.co.uk/shop/show/handset/orange_spv_m2000/detail/pay_monthly

I understand that the Nokia 9300i and the SonyEricsson P990 will have wi-fi too. These phones are going to be competing with the Treo(s).

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield

The Third Way with Carriers, Wi-fi and WiMax
ChiA @ 1/22/2006 3:01:14 PM # Q
Of course, the current cellular carriers can set up the WiMax networks themselves, that way, whether the customer is using cellular, Wi-fi or WiMax, the money paid for the service will still end up in the same pot.

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield
RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
PenguinPowered @ 1/22/2006 4:11:36 PM # Q
Hmm... Skippy's finally noticed google. maybe now he'll start dreaming of electric sheep.

Google's in it for the $$$. They've got a pilot project going here in mtn view, and they're learning how much it costs to maintain the infrastructure. But they've also got bigger plans than just being a carrier. (I've been dropping hints here for a couple of months now, but they've gone unnoticed. )

Meanwhile, the carriers aren't that dumb. They're all working on wifi plans. pacific-telesis^wpacbell^wsbc^wat&t already offers wifi hotspot service. They've got O(2000) hotspots in CA, for example.

and, all the backchannel for wimax ain't free bandwidth. those carriers are making ugly noises about tiering services, again.

i suspect we are all about to live in interesting times.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
freakout @ 1/22/2006 4:16:35 PM # Q
I can see what you guys are saying with respect to the carriers not wanting people to use other networks, but if there is a conspiracy against Treo wi-fi, then why does the 700w support it?

I would agree completely with the "deliberate crippling" idea were it not for that oddity.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Here a Google, there a Google... everywhere a Google!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/22/2006 6:23:11 PM # Q
Hmm... Skippy's finally noticed google. maybe now he'll start dreaming of electric sheep.

Ummmm... no Marty - I've been watching Google since they first came out. Don't delude yourself that you're the only one living in SillyCon Valley with their eyes and ears open. Google have got some brilliant strategists working there in addition to some of the best talent in the Valley. Thus far they've retained the aggressiveness and vision of a 1990s startup, while becoming a Big Corporation with the $$$ it takes to make things actually happen. That's a difficult balancing act that even Apple failed to achieve. Having Rubin's IP on board might be the final piece to the Google puzzle:

- The best search engine
- Free email
- Wireless web portal
- Unused fiberoptic lines and bargain basement backbone access
- Location-tracking (gotta love the potential for abuse of something like that World Tracker service http://www.world-tracker.com/). Pretty soon someone will hack the tracking service to become like this: http://locatecell.com/
- Dodgeball (friend-locating service)
- Google Maps/Google Earth
- Android (to provide a cellphone OS + more)

"Free" location-specific ad-driven web access, email, GPS, friend location + cellphone service? Can't miss. The cellphone carriers are going to be hurting big time next year if Google gets the recipe right. They already have the right price figured out (free). The nagging question I have is: "Is this another dot bomb deck of cards?" Is there an adequate revenue stream to support such a grandiose mobile connectivity dream. If Google fails, it will go down as the most spectacular dot bomb the Valley has ever seen.

Google's in it for the $$$.

Wow. Thanks for sharing that brilliant revelation, Marty. I thought they were just trying to be good Earth citizens. How S.F. of me.

They've got a pilot project going here in mtn view, and they're learning how much it costs to maintain the infrastructure. But they've also got bigger plans than just being a carrier. (I've been dropping hints here for a couple of months now, but they've gone unnoticed. )

I'm actually on my way to South Bay right now. Maybe I'll drop by for a spot of tea, old chap? Call me.

Google will become a carrier + an omnipresent web portal. I don't think traditional carriers will respond fast enough to stop Google from carving out a healthy chunk of the market for eyeballs.

Meanwhile, the carriers aren't that dumb. They're all working on wifi plans. pacific-telesis^wpacbell^wsbc^wat&t already offers wifi hotspot service. They've got O(2000) hotspots in CA, for example.

They may not be dumb, but they're monolithic + slow to respond to ye olde paradigm shifts. Pac Bell especially is beyond hope. Companies like Sprint + Verizon (who would probably be wise to merge ASAP) might be smart enough to mount an effective response. We'll see soon enough.

and, all the backchannel for wimax ain't free bandwidth. those carriers are making ugly noises about tiering services, again.

I believe Google's also has that covered to go along with its tons of dark fiber.

i suspect we are all about to live in interesting times.

I suspect we already do.

I.M.

Deckard


RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 1/22/2006 6:24:07 PM # Q
The TREO 700w does not do wi-fi, AFAIK:

-- http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700w/specs.epl

Re: Carriers vs Wi-fi!!
SeldomVisitor @ 1/22/2006 6:27:45 PM # Q
It should be (emphatically) remembered that the cell and legacy (POTS) carriers are fighting tooth and nail to prevent cities from installing "free" (flat rate) wireless access. They can't compete so they're asking well-lubricated politicians to stop it - New Orleans is a wonderful contemporary example of this - they're installing "free" wireless but they MUST cripple it within some short period of time due to the legislative efforts by those protect-their-coffers carriers.

-- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/02/AR2005120201853.html

-- http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/29/D8E69QMO0.html

-- http://news.com.com/New+Orleans+to+offer+free+Wi-Fi/2100-7351_3-5975845.html

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
rcartwright @ 1/22/2006 7:10:32 PM # Q
Seldom Visitor, its not that WiFi is onboard, just that it can use a SD WiFi card.

VoR is right on the money on this one. The carriers are either doing the one wing chicken dance or quietly getting ready to set up a wifi channel on their own. Cingular and Sprint come to mind.

I too am interested in how the "Google uber alles" approach the Stanford nerds seem to be taking is going to play out.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
PenguinPowered @ 1/22/2006 10:46:30 PM # Q
Not bad, only three repetitions of the Philip K Dick reference spread over two months to get you thinking about Android, but no, the android's not the interesting thing here, it's the electric sheep.

As far as free ad-based internet access not missing, it's been tried. Many times. Failed every time. Google's got to have a better angle than that, if they want to be more than another such failure.

Besides, wifi infrastructure is very expensive, as the goog is finding out in Mountain View, and wi-max is over hyped and far in the future. (Wi-max has other problems, in the form of the FCC, but that'll come up later.)

Maybe I'll drop by for a spot of tea, old chap? Call me.

Email me your phone number.

Given the speed of the AT&T purchase; the fact that SBC/AT&T already has huge numbers of wi-fi hotspots in CA -- and are offering it cheap; the time it will take to roll Google's wifi infrastructure and the tendency of people to rather pay a small fee that cope with ads for access, I suspect that the goog is going to have plenty of competition.

But you're only mentioning the obvious stuff. The goog has bigger fish to fry then the telcos, and our times are going to be a lot more interesting if they can figure out how to turn the stove on. You're missing two rather amusing pieces in your precis, and they're the two that makes this an interesting adventure.

By the way, Linux is the new black.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/22/2006 11:00:08 PM # Q
It should be (emphatically) remembered that the cell and legacy (POTS) carriers are fighting tooth and nail to prevent cities from installing "free" (flat rate) wireless access. They can't compete so they're asking well-lubricated politicians to stop it - New Orleans is a wonderful contemporary example of this - they're installing "free" wireless but they MUST cripple it within some short period of time due to the legislative efforts by those protect-their-coffers carriers.


Why shouldn't carriers get pi$$ed off when municipalites use taxpayers' money to compete with the carriers? Let's see: Free + government-sponsored Internet/Wi-Fi Vs. Not free + commercial provider-sponsored Internet/Wi-Fi. Hmmmm.... What a hard decision for consumers to make...

With WiMax, I envision the situation being similar to the early days of the Internet, with dozens of Mom and Pop ISPs springing up in every locale. Eventually these may become somewhat consolidated, but nowhere to the degree that things are now. The technology just makes things too easy and too inexpensive for only huge corporations to become significant players. I have difficulty envisioning anything but disaster for the carriers and current ISPs, though. Can ANYONE here explain how carriers and ISPs will not be seriously damaged by the widespread rollout of Wi-Fi and WiMax? Providing proprietary content might have been be one angle for the Big Boys to use, but now we see Slingbox has come along and used technology to destroy yet another potential revenue stream for carriers. How long will it be before people start hacking ways to use free bandwidth to create their own personal TV and radio stations? The technology to do so is already available TODAY.

Any way you slice it, carriers are toast unless the government somehow can control this bandwidth. Unfortunately for the carriers, technology is advancing exponentiallly faster than the laws are.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
hawkspy @ 1/23/2006 12:40:35 AM # Q
Sorry - the bulldust and bluster above does not negate the fact that:
- WiFi IS SUPPORTED (in SDIO format - ie with an add-on SD card) for the Palm W700.
- Presumably then it is possile technically to provide drivers which work for the Treo 650.
- Any collusion between carriers and Palm - which may tacitly occur - is irrelevant. W700 has shown the intent to provide WiFi to end users - my original query was why cant it also be done on the 650?

Ranting about conspiracy theories in spite of the intuency of such a corporate arrangement does not answer this question...especially since, from the outset of the 650's release Palm employees were quoted as "working on" drivers for the 650.

CAN T650 wifi drivers ACTUALLY be done?? If so - given that they are available for the w700 why arent they available in the 650?

Where do We Go Nowwwwwww?!

- Sir Axl de Rose, 1986

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
hawkspy @ 1/23/2006 12:52:16 AM # Q
Seldom Visitor - check the link below - SDIO WiFi is supported:


http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700w/options.epl

Where do We Go Nowwwwwww?!

- Sir Axl de Rose, 1986

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
PenguinPowered @ 1/23/2006 1:38:42 AM # Q
Why shouldn't carriers get pi$$ed off when municipalites use taxpayers' money to compete with the carriers?

goog's deal with mtn view requires the goverment to spend no money.

With WiMax, I envision the situation being similar to the early days of the Internet, with dozens of Mom and Pop ISPs springing up in every locale.

Don't count on it. WiMax will require significant investment in backhaul infrastructure. It's not going to be within the mom and pop price range. Meanwhile, between now and WiMax, goog and others are going to be putting wifi on lamp poles. That ain't cheap either, if you want any kind of reasonable coverage.

Can ANYONE here explain how carriers and ISPs will not be seriously damaged by the widespread rollout of Wi-Fi and WiMax?

tariffs and infrastructure cost.

Providing proprietary content might have been be one angle for the Big Boys to use

carriers don't make their money out of content. they make it out of capacity. smart carriers will roll with the flow and lease their capacity out.

Any way you slice it, carriers are toast unless the government somehow can control this bandwidth. Unfortunately for the carriers, technology is advancing exponentiallly faster than the laws are.

The government has been controlling the rf bandwidth for nearly three quarters of a century. It's called the FCC. Part 15 is not your friend.

unless the goog is planning on buying at&t, it's got a lot of infrastructure to build out to be able to go toe-to-toe with the rbocs in every area. hmm... i wonder how much sbc/at&t will ask for itself?

May You Live in Interesting Times

Google as the new NBC or the new Comcast? Maybe...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/23/2006 2:31:17 AM # Q
Not bad, only three repetitions of the Philip K Dick reference spread over two months to get you thinking about Android, but no, the android's not the interesting thing here, it's the electric sheep.

Ummmm... Marty, do you actually think anything you're alluding to is somehow revelatory? Get serious.

As far as free ad-based internet access not missing, it's been tried. Many times. Failed every time. Google's got to have a better angle than that, if they want to be more than another such failure.

Perhaps. I'd love to get the chance to take a look at Google's books myself. I suspect that - like with almost every dot bomb the Valley has ever seen - the hype is more based on potential than it is on current or even near-future revenue streams.

Besides, wifi infrastructure is very expensive, as the goog is finding out in Mountain View, and wi-max is over hyped and far in the future. (Wi-max has other problems, in the form of the FCC, but that'll come up later.)

And cable was also expensive. It takes money to make money.

Maybe I'll drop by for a spot of tea, old chap? Call me.

Email me your phone number.

You'd probably try to slip roofies into my Darjeeling...

Given the speed of the AT&T purchase; the fact that SBC/AT&T already has huge numbers of wi-fi hotspots in CA -- and are offering it cheap; the time it will take to roll Google's wifi infrastructure and the tendency of people to rather pay a small fee that cope with ads for access, I suspect that the goog is going to have plenty of competition.

People are cheap. They'll do anything for free access. Google could complete the rollout within a year and they already have the name recognition earned from the search engine, free email, etc. Just look at how quickly they became a dominant presense in the search engine wars. SBC, on the other hand is an incompetent company that is sure to fumble away any leads as surely as Palm has with the Treo.

But you're only mentioning the obvious stuff. The goog has bigger fish to fry then the telcos, and our times are going to be a lot more interesting if they can figure out how to turn the stove on. You're missing two rather amusing pieces in your precis, and they're the two that makes this an interesting adventure.

Actually, I alluded to some of the other possibilities in the post above. I also left out some of Google's numerous other assets like SMS, Froogle and their newsgroup service. I think free Internet access and cellphone service would leverage Google onto enough eyeballs to lock up the advertising market. The wildcard would be whether or not Google can (or would be allowed to) use that infrastructure to broadcast content to its captive audience. Turning their raison d'etre from a "pull" to a "push" provider would be a HUGE paradigm shift - one I don't think the FCC has yet thought through. Sprint already has its MobiTV (proof of concept) service running and MobiTV is bravely trying to expand (before it - inevitably - gets decimated by either Google or roll-your-own Slingbox-type packages). MobiTV may be crude, but Pandora's Box is now open. Could the FCC then turn around and stop Google from broadcasting Internet Generation TV stations or radio stations? I doubt it. And I'm guessing Google's lawyers are saying the same thing.

By the way, Linux is the new black.

As in "What should I wear to this funeral?". Yes, PalmLinux seems to be proving your theory.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
AdamaDBrown @ 1/23/2006 2:05:24 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:

Why shouldn't carriers get pi$$ed off when municipalites use taxpayers' money to compete with the carriers? Let's see: Free + government-sponsored Internet/Wi-Fi Vs. Not free + commercial provider-sponsored Internet/Wi-Fi. Hmmmm.... What a hard decision for consumers to make...

They're completely free to get upset. But that doesn't mean they should be able to rewrite the law to protect their business models. The profits of private electric services go down whereever there's a co-op, and the profits of private security go down whereever there's effective law enforcement. That doesn't mean that we should do away with those things to appease a few private businesses. If municipalities want to provide better and faster service to their consituents, and can do it cheaper than the telecoms can, I see little reason to stop them. Besides which, these systems can be very profitable for governments as well--reducing their connectivity costs, allowing for use of things like VoIP, and attracting new businesses, all of which means cheaper operations and increased revenue.

Right now, the telecoms are trying to protect their buggy whip market. If they were smart, they would have long ago started laying out fast and unlimited wireless, available for a low monthly fee. They could have fatted themselves on providing the network for people to run their own services, private or public.

The industry, though, is afraid of change, not just for the classic reasons but because change means their six-month financial forecast is in doubt. Since that's all they really care about, long-term planning is thrown in the dumpster. Eventually, that's going to come back and bite them in a big way. Very rarely do the major companies that pioneered a given technology survive the jump to the next generation of that technology.

Marty, I don't gather what you're saying about Part 15 restrictions on unlicensed radio traffic. Yes, unlicensed spectrum can be crowded, but it's also the best way to guarantee the cheapness of operation. The artificially high entry barrier for cellular service, in terms of spectrum and hardware, is largely to blame for the few choices in carrier, compared to how cheap and prolific WiFi is.

Yes, it would be good if there were some unlicensed spectrum set aside specifically for wireless internet, to prevent interference, but that's not currently a fatal problem.

Can Pandora's new box contain Internet TV + radio stations?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/23/2006 3:29:16 PM # Q
They're completely free to get upset. But that doesn't mean they should be able to rewrite the law to protect their business models. The profits of private electric services go down whereever there's a co-op, and the profits of private security go down whereever there's effective law enforcement. That doesn't mean that we should do away with those things to appease a few private businesses. If municipalities want to provide better and faster service to their consituents, and can do it cheaper than the telecoms can, I see little reason to stop them. Besides which, these systems can be very profitable for governments as well--reducing their connectivity costs, allowing for use of things like VoIP, and attracting new businesses, all of which means cheaper operations and increased revenue.

Specious (and DANGEROUS) thinking there, Comrade. First of all, it was private businesses that took the risk + put up the money to get much of this going in the first place. Are you saying the government should have the right to move in and take over any industry you feel isn't adequately following your script, or is - in your opinion - overcharging for a service?

Secondly, unlike with municipal law enforcement, there was no precedent for municipal Internet/Wi-Fi/VoIP providers. The government has no mandate to compete in this particular quadrant of the private sector.

Thirdly, how many government offices do you know of that operate more efficiently than a private for-profit business? I sure as he11 would not want an employee the calibre of the typical DMV office dealing with my Internet or VoIP service. If you think Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, etc are bad, wait until you get DMV-quality customer service. Don't assume the government would make it better.

Also consider the message that governments muscling in on private enterprise gives to businesses. Why would anyone bother taking risks in a new technologhy if they know the government can just come in and start competing with them as soon as it's apparent that the technology is viable?

In a slightly similar situation, governments in various countries are starting to try and legislate controls over the pharmaceutical industry. Consumers will actually end up paying for that governmental interference for YEARS to come in more ways than you can imagine.

What you're proposing would lead the government down a slippery slope that they're wise to avoid at all costs.

Right now, the telecoms are trying to protect their buggy whip market. If they were smart, they would have long ago started laying out fast and unlimited wireless, available for a low monthly fee. They could have fatted themselves on providing the network for people to run their own services, private or public.

The industry, though, is afraid of change, not just for the classic reasons but because change means their six-month financial forecast is in doubt. Since that's all they really care about, long-term planning is thrown in the dumpster. Eventually, that's going to come back and bite them in a big way. Very rarely do the major companies that pioneered a given technology survive the jump to the next generation of that technology.

Ridiculous. The cellphone carriers and telcos have invested BILLIONS of $$$ in their networks. They have paid their dues and have earned the right to try and profit from the market without government meddling.

Marty, I don't gather what you're saying about Part 15 restrictions on unlicensed radio traffic. Yes, unlicensed spectrum can be crowded, but it's also the best way to guarantee the cheapness of operation. The artificially high entry barrier for cellular service, in terms of spectrum and hardware, is largely to blame for the few choices in carrier, compared to how cheap and prolific WiFi is.

Yes, it would be good if there were some unlicensed spectrum set aside specifically for wireless internet, to prevent interference, but that's not currently a fatal problem.

I had posted about this (I assume this is what Marty's alluding to) yesterday. The original post didn't go through but I reposted it last night. If Google (or anyone else, for that matter) were to launch a service providing 50 "Internet TV" stations and 100 "Internet radio" stations, who are they accountable to? What if the service is "broadcast" from some unnamed Eastern European country that has a "creative" view on the validity of copyright restrictions? If I buy a DVD, can I stream it to myself (Slingbox-style)? How about to 5 people in my family? How about to my 5000 closest "friends"? If I buy 1000 DVDs and 10,000 CDs can I stream these too? How about if I have a database of 100,000 MP3 and code an app that can steam songs on demand, in response to a request sent over the Internet? Is such a user-programmable radio station legal? The technology to do all this is either already here or coming Real Soon Now. The laws aren't strong enough to get all of these tools back into Pandora's Box.

...the times they are achangin'


TVoR
Copyright, 2006.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
AdamaDBrown @ 1/23/2006 5:16:04 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:

Specious (and DANGEROUS) thinking there, Comrade. First of all, it was private businesses that took the risk + put up the money to get much of this going in the first place.

And they've made it back a dozen times over. Nobody in telecom is hurting for money.

Are you saying the government should have the right to move in and take over any industry you feel isn't adequately following your script, or is - in your opinion - overcharging for a service?

Nobody said anything about taking over anything. Flip it around: should the government be banned from plowing the roads in the winter because private plows would make money doing it themselves? THAT is dangerous precedent: that everything, everywhere is a profit center. I say that if you provide marginal enough service that the people of the town feel they need to do it themselves, then you don't have any right to bribe your way up the food chain to try and stop them.

Secondly, unlike with municipal law enforcement, there was no precedent for municipal Internet/Wi-Fi/VoIP providers. The government has no mandate to compete in this particular quadrant of the private sector.

The government has the mandate to promote the general welfare. Where internet access goes up, education goes up, and where education goes up, crime goes down, unemployment goes down, and the standard of living goes up. There's plenty of jobs being shipped to India that could be done quite effectively right here in the backwaters of the US, given more literate populace.

Thirdly, how many government offices do you know of that operate more efficiently than a private for-profit business?

Lots of them. Do you know why healthcare is so expensive in the US? Because the HMOs take twenty five cents out of every dollar to pay for their beauracracy. Do you know what it costs the federal government to provide the exact same service? Two cents out of every dollar.

Also consider the message that governments muscling in on private enterprise gives to businesses. Why would anyone bother taking risks in a new technologhy if they know the government can just come in and start competing with them as soon as it's apparent that the technology is viable?

The environment in the US today is more business-friendly than it's been since the era of the Pinkertons. Between cash-and-carry government, corporate welfare, unenforced laws, and tax loopholes that would make Al Capone weep with envy, megaconglomerates can operate with complete impunity. If you don't believe me, take a look at the oil industry, which is currently making more money than any industry in the history of the world. Or take the arms industry. Or pharmaceuticals, or entertainment, or...

In a slightly similar situation, governments in various countries are starting to try and legislate controls over the pharmaceutical industry. Consumers will actually end up paying for that governmental interference for YEARS to come in more ways than you can imagine.

Seen "The Constant Gardner" yet? Your segueway into regulation versus deregulation and attendant arguments notwithstanding, the phamaceutical industry is in deep need of some control.

Ridiculous. The cellphone carriers and telcos have invested BILLIONS of $$$ in their networks. They have paid their dues and have earned the right to try and profit from the market without government meddling.

Yes, they've invested billions, but they've profited tens of billions. It's an old and specious argument: we invested lots of money to do this, so anything we make back is justified, no matter how excessive. And nobody's trying to take over the industry. But if they were actually offering competitive pricing and service, they would have nothing to fear from a handful of municipal internet projects. The reason that they are afraid is because if it actually caught on, they'd be out billions in profits, because technology is making it cheaper to communicate every day.

I had posted about this (I assume this is what Marty's alluding to) yesterday. The original post didn't go through but I reposted it last night. If Google (or anyone else, for that matter) were to launch a service providing 50 "Internet TV" stations and 100 "Internet radio" stations, who are they accountable to? What if the service is "broadcast" from some unnamed Eastern European country that has a "creative" view on the validity of copyright restrictions? If I buy a DVD, can I stream it to myself (Slingbox-style)? How about to 5 people in my family? How about to my 5000 closest "friends"? If I buy 1000 DVDs and 10,000 CDs can I stream these too? How about if I have a database of 100,000 MP3 and code an app that can steam songs on demand, in response to a request sent over the Internet? Is such a user-programmable radio station legal? The technology to do all this is either already here or coming Real Soon Now. The laws aren't strong enough to get all of these tools back into Pandora's Box.

True. Franky, I don't see how conventional ideas about copyright are going to survive. The entertainment industry's approach is to try and buy legislation that encrypts programs, set up copy-protected media, etcetera. But the reality is that these things are only going to get easier to copy, and it only takes one person breaking such a system to render it useless. Hence, the reason why it's foolish to try and protect the telecom industry: whether it's streamed TV stations, or ultra-cheap wireless internet, these things are going to happen. Rather than trying to hold onto the old way as long as possible, just let it happen. Industry can adapt or they can keel over, and if they do the latter, new industries will be there to take their place. It's the natural order of a truly free market. Adapt or die.

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
freakout @ 1/23/2006 11:20:43 PM # Q
"Ridiculous. The cellphone carriers and telcos have invested BILLIONS of $$$ in their networks. They have paid their dues and have earned the right to try and profit from the market without government meddling."

An outsider's opinion: the carriers in the U.S. could use a bit of government strong-arming. Look at the situation that's developed over there because of the whole "let the market decide" mentality. You've got a bunch of incompatible networks and services that just adds up to more headaches for the poor consumers.

Leaving *everything* to the free market is madness. The free market cares about *nothing* except money. And there's more to the world than that. [/idealism]

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
PenguinPowered @ 1/24/2006 12:07:30 AM # Q
Marty, do you actually think anything you're alluding to is somehow revelatory?

Nope. Doesn't reveal a thing. That's why it's an allusion.

But yeah, I think it's relevant.

I'd love to get the chance to take a look at Google's books myself. I suspect that - like with almost every dot bomb the Valley has ever seen - the hype is more based on potential than it is on current or even near-future revenue streams.

They're public now, so the quarterlies, at least, are public. The reveune streams are revealed, and yes indeed, they do look good. Not good enough to support the infrastructure roll out, but good.

People are cheap. They'll do anything for free access.

This turns out not to be true. There is a tradeoff between "paying" and "putting up with", and previous attempts at ad-based internet "free" access have shown that people will pay rather than put up with that. So, by the way, does the inroads that cable-only networks are making.


Google could complete the rollout within a year

Alas, no. It takes a lot longer than that to wire a lot of cities for wifi, and they have to do and finish the pilot study first.

Could the FCC then turn around and stop Google from broadcasting Internet Generation TV stations or radio stations? I doubt it. And I'm guessing Google's lawyers are saying the same thing.

Could and will. There's the little issue of spectrum, of which there is currently a shortage that gets worse every day.

I don't think the goog is all that interested in being a content provider, other than ad content. But I'm sure they'd like as many channels for their ads as possible. Perhaps clearchannel should be concerned?

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
PenguinPowered @ 1/24/2006 12:19:27 AM # Q
Secondly, unlike with municipal law enforcement, there was no precedent for municipal Internet/Wi-Fi/VoIP providers. The government has no mandate to compete in this particular quadrant of the private sector.

There was. Local governments got into this before the fed. There are plenty of precendents going back as far as Aloha-net. Also, there's a mandate, in the constitution, for the government to facilitate communication.

Ridiculous. The cellphone carriers and telcos have invested BILLIONS of $$$ in their networks. They have paid their dues and have earned the right to try and profit from the market without government meddling.

The telcos and cellphone industry have been under government over sight for a very long time, nearly 3/4 of a century.

Yes, it would be good if there were some unlicensed spectrum set aside specifically for wireless internet, to prevent interference, but that's not currently a fatal problem.

Actually, there's already problems, and the proliferation of part 15 devices is only making them worse. I won't bore you with the details of RF noise floors, but it's getting harder and harder to find usable spectrum.

If Google (or anyone else, for that matter) were to launch a service providing 50 "Internet TV" stations and 100 "Internet radio" stations, who are they accountable to?

If they really use RF to do this, they're accountable to the FCC in the US.

If I buy a DVD, can I stream it to myself (Slingbox-style)?


until the RIAA has its way with DRM.

The times are changing, but the people who want a draconian lock on IP are the ones that are doing most of the changing. CF the DMCA and current attempts to strengthen it.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
PenguinPowered @ 1/24/2006 12:29:11 AM # Q
Marty, I don't gather what you're saying about Part 15 restrictions on unlicensed radio traffic. Yes, unlicensed spectrum can be crowded, but it's also the best way to guarantee the cheapness of operation. The artificially high entry barrier for cellular service, in terms of spectrum and hardware, is largely to blame for the few choices in carrier, compared to how cheap and prolific WiFi is.

Part 15 has two gottchas that will have a big impact on wimax or other wide area wifi:

1) There are power limits
2) Part 15 devices are not protected from interference from licensed services but must not interfer with licensed services

The proliferation of part 15 devices is leading to a noise crisis and licensed service users are starting to take notice.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Omnipresent multimedia connectivity. Here by 2007.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/24/2006 12:30:08 AM # Q
>>>I'd love to get the chance to take a look at Google's books myself. I suspect that - like with almost every dot bomb the Valley has ever seen - the hype is more based on potential than it is on current or even near-future revenue streams.

They're public now, so the quarterlies, at least, are public. The reveune streams are revealed, and yes indeed, they do look good. Not good enough to support the infrastructure roll out, but good.

I meant since they started - not since the IPO.

>>>People are cheap. They'll do anything for free access.

This turns out not to be true. There is a tradeoff between "paying" and "putting up with", and previous attempts at ad-based internet "free" access have shown that people will pay rather than put up with that. So, by the way, does the inroads that cable-only networks are making.

But who would turn down "free" Internet and cellphone/MP3 player/portable TV/SMS/GPS/friend location? I want no part of the Google Kool-Aid, but I suspect the Joe Sixpacks of the world (especially those cretinous, squawking Nextel users!) would be lining up for a chog of Google's Grog™:

GooglePort™ = the handheld device for the masses, serving up GoogleNet™, the location-specific ad-sponsored Internet with all the Google-flavored plug-ins you can think of...


>>>Google could complete the rollout within a year.

Alas, no. It takes a lot longer than that to wire a lot of cities for wifi, and they have to do and finish the pilot study first.

I hear otherwise (about the necessary rollout timeframe), but I guess we'll see soon enough.

>>>Could the FCC then turn around and stop Google from broadcasting Internet Generation TV stations or radio stations? I doubt it. And I'm guessing Google's lawyers are saying the same thing.

Could and will. There's the little issue of spectrum, of which there is currently a shortage that gets worse every day.

This will be an interesting battle. Google was smart enough to assemble all the pieces of the puzzle before most people realized what they were doing. Clever! I'm betting they come out on top - whatever happens.

I don't think the goog is all that interested in being a content provider, other than ad content.

Obviously. Do ANY for-profit broadcasters care about content other than its ability to sell ads?

But I'm sure they'd like as many channels for their ads as possible. Perhaps clearchannel should be concerned?

I couldn't care less who wins the advertising wars - I plan on rolling my own "broadcast" solution in the near future. Those upcoming Sony microlaptops look to be the way to go. Too bad Slingbox has no PalmOS client - they already support Windows Mobile, though. (Yikes, Palm! No Skype, no Slingbox, no multitasking, no traditional file support, no...)


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: ...err....thanks....but WHERE THE F*CK IS THE WIFI?!!!
PenguinPowered @ 1/24/2006 2:13:06 AM # Q
But who would turn down "free" Internet and cellphone/MP3 player/portable TV/SMS/GPS/friend location?

Me.

But again, it comes down to what the hassle-factor is for "free". the hassle for "free internet" outweighed the advantage and most people skipped it.

GooglePort™ = the handheld device for the masses, serving up GoogleNet™, the location-specific ad-sponsored Internet with all the Google-flavored plug-ins you can think of...

Yes. When you add the device, you get to where I think google is going, and why the electric sheep are important.

(I wrote): "Could and will. There's the little issue of spectrum, of which there is currently a shortage that gets worse every day."

This will be an interesting battle. Google was smart enough to assemble all the pieces of the puzzle before most people realized what they were doing. Clever! I'm betting they come out on top - whatever happens.

Eh, they're far from having assembled all the pieces. I've done the infrastructure roll out thing. It's harder than google thinks it is if they think they can do it in a year. Also, they've still got to build "GooglePort", get it qualified by the FCC, and sell it to carriers. (Even if they put wifi everywhere urban, they'll still have to cope with the cell net and POTS subscribers. there are actually parts of this that the goog's not very good at. It has got some interesting blind spots.

Obviously. Do ANY for-profit broadcasters care about content other than its ability to sell ads?

Yes. Disney is a broadcaster (via ABC) because they wanted outlets for their content.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Marty Fouts: some more thoughts on Google's evil plans...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2006 8:52:17 PM # Q
And here are some more thoughts re same
SeldomVisitor @ 4/10/2006 7:41:59 AM # Q
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