Comments on: ACCESS Details the Next Version of NetFront
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RE: PalmOS?
And miss an opportunity to prove he's a complete idiot? Not Gekko!
Gekko, just in case you weren't trying to be stupid and it just sort of happened by accident, let me help you out. The month we are in is called February. It's in a season we call Winter. The next version of PalmSource's OS isn't supposed to be released until Summer. That's two seasons away from Winter. If it doesn't get shipped to the licensees in the Summer, THEN you can come back and do this little shtick of yours again. K?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: PalmOS?
Because PSRC are developing an OS that makes wince obsolete, and ACCESS (and a number of other parties) wanted a piece of that groovy palm-on-linux wince-busting action.
Of course, with "vista mobile" already on public test devices, wince is obviously, well, already obsolete. But that's nothing new, right? Afterall, Microsuck has pretty much closed down development of wince, and put all those developers into the XBox group... you knew that, right? :)
> "...your naivete is annoying..."
Your whiney-assed continued existence on our board is annoying.
But what's new? :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
http://www.access-us-inc.com/pdf/access_in_news/LinuxWorld_09_04.pdf
http://www.access-sys-eu.com/dynamic_menu.html
(Props to Surur for the original detective work.)
***********************************************************************
I hope no one's clueless enough to ask "Where's PalmOS?" in all of this. NetFront could not possibly ship NetFrontLinux until 2007 at the earliest (and NEVER at the latest).
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
This is old news being recycled as new by ACCESS because of 3GSM. Most of this browser-based application engine has already been shipping for some time. Looks to me like they've just made some refinements and added support for XMLHTTPRequest so you can use the regular version of GMail. The Dynamic Menu stuff was shipping the last time we talked about this some months ago. Remember? The time I pointed out the embarrassing mistake you and Surer made by thinking ACCESS was going to "port" the Palm OS to a markup language so it would run inside the browser?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
Ummmmm... when did I ever say "ACCESS was going to "port" the Palm OS to a markup language so it would run inside the browser"? Links PLEASE. You need to get a clue, Beersy. I've suggested 2 ways for NetFront to be integrated with PalmOS: the easy way and the hard way. Try not to put words in my mouth, Hackborn-style. I might just turn around and shove them back down your throat. (Though I'm sure that with as much practice taking things deep as you've had over the years you probably wouldn't gag.)
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
3 options to integrate NetFront with PalmOS:
Regular PalmOS working as it does now with Netfront simply added to the ROM and possibly used as an app launcher (see AppShelf for how this might look). Easy to do, but what's the point? Why bother? And unless PalmLinux was ready + stable, why trust the heavy lifting to an ancient, buggy OS (PalmOS 5)?
2) NetFront-dominant.
NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed. But why feature seemingly-weaker framework (NetFrontOS) in preference to a (potentially) more flexible framework (PalmLinux)? [Of course this assumes Access hasn't given up on PalmLinux...]
3) NetFront fully integrated with PalmOS.
NetFront as the new PalmOS UI + file manager. All data/apps within (RAM + expansion cards) and without (Wi-Fi, remote access, Internet, Intranet) controlled through browser paradigm. Bold, but would be a fairly large undertaking and is predicated on Access being confident that PalmLinux is a viable platform.
**********************************************************************
TVoR expects the announcement soon that PalmLinux has been formerly canned and thrown into the same dumpster as Cobalt 6.0 and Cobalt 6.1. With no future in PalmLinux, option #3 is an unlikely longshot, but perhaps DoCoMo is willing to fund this - most ambitious - vision of NetFrontLinux + wait 18 - 24 months to see if it all pans out.
So looking at options 1 and 2, which is more likely? Both essentially represent PalmSource and Access IP functioning rather independently, yet living in the same "house". Given how poorly-suited PalmOS 5 is to next-generation telephony, NetFrontOS might be a better foundation, with PalmOS apps being launched or emulated within this framework. Notwithstanding Beersy's attempts to twist the facts, a NetFront-dominant OS seems to be the most likely compromise.
***********************************************************************
PalmOS is DEAD. Long live PalmOS!
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
This NetFront-as-platform manifesto is probably the future of PalmOS revealed....
The NetFront browser-as-UI paradigm would be a pretty bold step....
Of course you're typically incoherent as the thread goes on, switching mid-sentence between describing parsed mark-up and scripting languages in one breath and compiled procedural code in the next, then back again as if they were one and the same:
Google's plug-ins show what can be done when one takes a step back and creatively thinks about UI issues. With new PalmOS apps being written to the Protein APIs, with robust multitasking being built into PalmLinux, with even the most casual of users now being comfortable with a browser interface, and with an always-on wireless connection likely being the centerpoint of all future mobile devices, having apps plug in to a browser-style "launcher" definitely seems both understandable and doable. Not necessarily my cup of tea, but I doubt PalmSource's UI Kiddies wouldn't have too much switching ideas from Rome to a browser paradigm.
Shall I continue? I could quote some of Surer's silliness, which you replied to with approbation, but I won't because Surer is bright enough not to parade his occasional brain farts in every post he makes here.
Gotta remind you of this part, though. Here's where, to your credit, you finally started to realize you were making absolutely no sense at all and began furiously back-pedaling to a different story: the browser is no longer generating the UI; instead it's just an app launcher, now:
imagine the BROWSER interface as app launcher + file manager, with a pop-up/drop-down list of ALL apps; customisable links (e.g. icons on a DIA) to frequently used apps (both Protein or 68K), email program, contacts, schedule, websites, folders, etc.
Using a browser as a launcher to local resources on the device is something that Nokia and Motorola have been doing for at least two years on phones the operators give away for free. Anything but "bold" and nothing to do with the Palm OS.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
I still dont see why a POS java-like web plug-in wont happen. You have not refuted it either, that I could recall.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
I'm sorry, I guess I shouldn't be so smug about this, but you know... I'm talking to VoR. From the standpoint of a non-programmer I guess it's not obvious that there is a fundamental difference between something like HTML and JavaScript on the one hand, which are based on parsing a document object model, and a GUI like the Palm OS on the other, which uses code compiled to machine language that directly draws to screen buffers and what not. There's really no way to subtly mix the two or cleverly convert from one to the other. You're either letting the browser create the UI from a document (HTML + JavaScript + DOM) or you're telling the browser to step aside and let the UI be created by pure code, something that browsers have no concept of--they can't read it or manipulate it.
So what I'm saying is that ACCESS can use the browser to do things like launch both browser and native applications (go back and refer to that diagram you dug up) and the Palm OS can be that native application framework. Or if ACCESS wants to have the browser do all the UI rendering, they will have to jettison the Palm OS and just create something from scratch that looks like it. The in-between thing you are thinking of is not practical and it wouldn't be interesting even if they achieved it.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Get a clue, Beersy.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: The future of PalmOS?
2) NetFront-dominant.
NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed.
Advantages:
- Simple - Access might even get away with just coding a StyleTap Platform-like emulator to run PalmOS apps
- Little danger of a Cobalt-style catastrophe in which the emperor is revealed to have no clothes (years after the OS was supposed to debut)
- Platform starts immediately with a HUGE app library ("over 20,000 apps")
- Developers can keep on using their familiar old tools
- Previous investment in NetFrontOS is not wasted
- Likely better control + security for operators with NetFrontOS compared to PalmOS 5. It may be possible to limit PalmOS apps to a "sandbox" to prevent any rogue behaviour.
Disadvantages:
- Slower speed when running PalmOS apps
- Inability to truly multitask with PalmOS apps
- Somewhat of a KludgeOS compared to what a ground up fresh integration of PalmOS and NetFront could be.
**************************************************************************
Put your money where your (mealy) mouth is, Beersy. Let's hear YOU go on record stating what you feel the future PalmOS will look like. Otherwise S T F U.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
Only someone who had no idea whan an operating system actually is could write a sentence as incoherent as the above.
Care to try to translate it into some form of coherent English?
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
NetFront on Palm OS has always been a Palm OS application. It uses Palm OS system calls to perform low level graphics operations and memory management, for example. I expect PalmSource's system to expose the same kinds of low level services for NetFront. This could also enable the browser to integrate with the PalmSource middleware in some interesting ways much like Palm Query Applications used to (remember those?). (Too tired to elaborate now, but I've written about it here before.) The browser will run inside a window created by the underlying system, not the other way around. And the developer who uses the NetFront SDK will probably not have to know much of anything about the Cobalt API because they will be working at a higher level, manipulating objects in the DOM with JavaScript and HTML--web development with some kind of local server running that enables you to run 3rd party NetFront apps even in offline mode.
None of the disadvantages you describe to a "NetFront dominant" platform are in any way logical conclusions of such dominance, Voice. Although it's possible that, as Marty has suggested, ACCESS will decide to start shipping only PACE so you'll have limited multi-tasking, that's not what ACCESS has said they're planning right now.
That's all I have time for right now.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Since English is your second language, Marty:
Only someone who had no idea whan an operating system actually is could write a sentence as incoherent as the above.
Care to try to translate it into some form of coherent English?
Just for you Marty, Sweetie:
NetFrontOS - the phone OS
Graft on an environment that PalmOS apps can run in within the box enclosed by NetFrontOS.
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
NetFront is a *browser*, moron. It can't be a "core OS". :)
Like, duh.
Still, I won't be too hard on you. 50% of people are below average IQ. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
Thought so, Skippy.
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
You *can* make an interesting platform that's all browser-based, no question. What's kinda neat about the idea is that you can leverage common web development skills to enable users to create not just web applications, but also applications that operate on local data by running in a server on the device. I haven't looked at EyeOS, but they're probably doing something like that.
What you can't do is get Palm OS to run on a system like this. It's a completely different architecture.
Somebody mentioned StyleTap. And yeah, if for some reason you wanted to create your own complete OS that can proxy all the calls the Palm OS makes down to the metal using another native API, you could, theoretically do this. But there's no reason I can think of to add this extra layer if you don't already own a Windows CE.
Access bought PalmSource because they wanted a system that would be *under* their browser in an API sense, not off to the side somewhere. Browsers need operating systems to run, so if PalmSource isn't going to provide that, who is? Understand: NetFront will run *on* the PalmSource OS. This doesn't exclude the sad possibility that it will someday become the main way people interact with the OS. Maybe for some reason the Cobalt middleware will be considered inferior and ACCESS will say they don't think people care about running Protein apps, so they'll remove that middleware, leaving only the kernel, system services, and some low-level application stack that's only responsible for running a PACE environment. I think that's the view that Marty has of where things will go. I'm not convinced.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
Beersy, nice to hear you expand on what dumba$$es like Dr Opinion is too dull to understand and what Marty pretends to not understand (i.e. that we're talking about a NetFront PLATFORM, not the PalmOS NetFront browser). The combination OS I envision would be more akin to PalmOS running within StyleTap Platform on Windows Mobile (rather than a pseudo dual-boot computer with 2 OSes [NetFrontOS and PalmOS/PACE] switching rapidly to do screen writes when each became the "active" OS. (It would be interesting to find out if it would be even technically possible to rapidly cycle between 2 different OSes on the same device without the user noticing. Saved states in PalmOS might make this feasible...)
NetFront on Palm OS has always been a Palm OS application. It uses Palm OS system calls to perform low level graphics operations and memory management, for example. I expect PalmSource's system to expose the same kinds of low level services for NetFront. This could also enable the browser to integrate with the PalmSource middleware in some interesting ways much like Palm Query Applications used to (remember those?). (Too tired to elaborate now, but I've written about it here before.) The browser will run inside a window created by the underlying system, not the other way around. And the developer who uses the NetFront SDK will probably not have to know much of anything about the Cobalt API because they will be working at a higher level, manipulating objects in the DOM with JavaScript and HTML--web development with some kind of local server running that enables you to run 3rd party NetFront apps even in offline mode.
Interesting ideas - for reasons of better overall integration, it might make more sense for the future NetFrontOS to have NetFront (the browser) remain a PalmOS app.
None of the disadvantages you describe to a "NetFront dominant" platform are in any way logical conclusions of such dominance, Voice.
If a StyleTap-like framework was used to run PalmOS apps, I believe these disadvantages still apply:
- Slower speed when running PalmOS apps
- Inability to truly multitask with PalmOS apps
- Somewhat of a KludgeOS compared to what a ground up fresh integration of PalmOS and NetFront could be.
Although it's possible that, as Marty has suggested, ACCESS will decide to start shipping only PACE so you'll have limited multi-tasking, that's not what ACCESS has said they're planning right now.
That's all I have time for right now.
Marty slipped up when he admitted that Access is "dumbing down" the next-generation PalmOS. It's too bad, but that's probably the most practical option for Access. I don't consider PACE to have what we should be calling "multi-tasking". (We should reserve that term for OSes that can easily have several apps open + working at the same time.)
Interesting discussion so far - too bad certain dumba$$es seem intent on spoiling it.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
Why not? I think you're over-valuing the importance of PalmOS retaining primacy, Beersy. You're closeness to PalmOS has blinded you to the fact that if a potential solution WORKS and the user is unaware of any downside to that solution then it's a viable solution. StyleTap was relatively easy to code by a group of outsiders. Access presumably know a thing or two about both NetFrontOS ans PalmOS and therfore should have no difficulty coding StyleTap for NetFrontOS ("LoveTap™?).
Access bought PalmSource because they wanted a system that would be *under* their browser in an API sense, not off to the side somewhere.
Are you SURE that's why they bought PalmSource? Or did they buy PalmSource because it gave then a turnkey platform with HUGE name recognition (and a large app library) to leverage their cellphone OS onto the carriers?
Browsers need operating systems to run, so if PalmSource isn't going to provide that, who is?
Access. With their browser-based? NetFrontOS.
Understand: NetFront will run *on* the PalmSource OS.
Correction: NetFront CURRENTLY runs on PalmOS. The reverse may be (loosely) true in a year or two.
This doesn't exclude the sad possibility that it will someday become the main way people interact with the OS.
Why sad? If it works, is stable and intuitive, BRING IT ON!
Maybe for some reason the Cobalt middleware will be considered inferior and ACCESS will say they don't think people care about running Protein apps, so they'll remove that middleware, leaving only the kernel, system services, and some low-level application stack that's only responsible for running a PACE environment. I think that's the view that Marty has of where things will go. I'm not convinced.
Beersy, your fondness for PalmOS is clouding your mind. Try to become more cold and calculating (TVoR-like!) and think what you would do if you were Access. I believe Protein APIs and most of Cobalt have now been abandoned in favor of the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Legacy PalmOS apps + easy coding of traditional Palm APIs married to the new-fangled NetFrontOS, which will be expanded to handle telephony, wireless connectivity, etc. Very slick, simple AND practical. (i.e. The opposite of Cobalt! No Be engineers could ever have come up with a plan like that...)
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
So what you are saying David is basically that Access could simply leverage the PalmOS as to only being a browser and then resort to running PACE within the browser (a plugin if you will). And then when they deem that the PalmOS oldies have had enough, they pull the plug and are left with a Linux-backboned, browser-based OS, that just might everage AJAX-like functionality and none of the headache of the PACE layer and PalmOS oldies. In their position, I'd do it like this.
TVOR, I agree to some extent about the sysstem performance taking a hit. But I wonder if there will be any "native" Netfront apps that would step into play here (if you will a rerun but done more correctly of a brodge OS). If so, then Access could do this as you state, and still have made for enough dev time to allow for the needed dev to make a truely browser interacted OS.
Marty, in some ways I think this convo is a bit knawing at you because it would probably be here that you know more than what you can say. Personally speaking, I don't want you to say anything that would compromise your former employers. But I do have to wonder that if even you making a comment here and there on a topic like this that was closely related to your job function would be looked at on their side as something to make a case over. Don't let us here get you so riled up that court fees have you using a Visor or Clie. I'd rather you stick around to the end of that time when you can talk and hear what went right and wrong from what it is that you know.
Well, that's all for me. Us young folk need to be heading to bed. Some kinda rest Ima need to get if the threads are going to be this much fun when I get into work in the morning. Cheers and blessings to all.
mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
NetFront Browser + SDK + JVM does not a "platform" make. The proper comparison here is to FireFox plus its various plugins + the Sun JVM.
Cobalt is a full up platform. It has a launcher, a window manager with a GUI and an API, an a bunch of support libraries, all living on top of an OS with file systems and device support and raw graphics and so forth.
Linux is just a kernel.
You can have NetFront, even the expanded version proposed by Access for later, as an application suite on any number of operating systems, just as FireFox runs on a wide variety of operating systems.
Talking about NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed. is a lot like talking about Firefox as a core OS with windows being called on like Java to launch apps. It interchanges pieces of systems that aren't interchangable. It's like saying you'll make faster cars by replacing the transmissions with bigger fuel injectors.
Access's public plan of record is that the Linux kernel with Posix APIs is the 'core OS' of what we call various things, including NPL. The same public plan of record says that NetFront will continue to remain OS neutral. They'll be just as happy to sell it to you, as a platform, to run on Symbian and Win-mobile, as they currently are to sell you NetFront Browser.
Access' public plan of record is that NPL will support two API suites, NetFront platform + Cobalt userland / both running on Linux.
Beers is a lot more accurate when he talks about two APIs. Linux users can think of it as having to support both KDE and Gnome on the sam Linux box -- it's roughly of that complexity.
There are two unknowns, the one Beers alludes to: Whether the market will adopt the NetFront platform's API over the Cobalt userland API, and the one Skippy likes to rag on PSRC about: Whether NPL will really support the full up Cobalt API, or whether they'll settle for PACE and only support the existing PalmOS API.
The reason I pick on Skippy's confused sloppy statements is because it leads people like Twizza to write So what you are saying David is basically that Access could simply leverage the PalmOS as to only being a browser and then resort to running PACE within the browser (a plugin if you will).
and the answer to that is no. PACE doesn't run within the browser, it runs along side it. There has to be a window manager that can cope with both the PalmOS UI for windows and the browser's requirements for window rendering. It would be, roughly, like running firefox and IE at the same time on windows.
What PSRC has to supply to Access, then, is the underlying Linux kernel, plus that window manager plus glue. That plus either PACE or Cobalt plus Netfront makes NPL.
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
I'll get you for that one, Antoine...
;-O
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
NO MORE COFFEE FOR MARTY!
NetFront Browser + SDK + JVM does not a "platform" make. The proper comparison here is to FireFox plus its various plugins + the Sun JVM.
Cobalt is a full up platform. It has a launcher, a window manager with a GUI and an API, an a bunch of support libraries, all living on top of an OS with file systems and device support and raw graphics and so forth.
Linux is just a kernel.
You can have NetFront, even the expanded version proposed by Access for later, as an application suite on any number of operating systems, just as FireFox runs on a wide variety of operating systems.
Talking about NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed. is a lot like talking about Firefox as a core OS with windows being called on like Java to launch apps. It interchanges pieces of systems that aren't interchangable. It's like saying you'll make faster cars by replacing the transmissions with bigger fuel injectors.
Access's public plan of record is that the Linux kernel with Posix APIs is the 'core OS' of what we call various things, including NPL. The same public plan of record says that NetFront will continue to remain OS neutral. They'll be just as happy to sell it to you, as a platform, to run on Symbian and Win-mobile, as they currently are to sell you NetFront Browser.
Access' public plan of record is that NPL will support two API suites, NetFront platform + Cobalt userland / both running on Linux.
Beers is a lot more accurate when he talks about two APIs. Linux users can think of it as having to support both KDE and Gnome on the sam Linux box -- it's roughly of that complexity.
There are two unknowns, the one Beers alludes to: Whether the market will adopt the NetFront platform's API over the Cobalt userland API, and the one Skippy likes to rag on PSRC about: Whether NPL will really support the full up Cobalt API, or whether they'll settle for PACE and only support the existing PalmOS API.
The reason I pick on Skippy's confused sloppy statements is because it leads people like Twizza to write So what you are saying David is basically that Access could simply leverage the PalmOS as to only being a browser and then resort to running PACE within the browser (a plugin if you will).
and the answer to that is no. PACE doesn't run within the browser, it runs along side it. There has to be a window manager that can cope with both the PalmOS UI for windows and the browser's requirements for window rendering. It would be, roughly, like running firefox and IE at the same time on windows.
What PSRC has to supply to Access, then, is the underlying Linux kernel, plus that window manager plus glue. That plus either PACE or Cobalt plus Netfront makes NPL.
Ummmm, Marty... did you take your medicine today?
In case you didn't notice, I've been talking about the relative benefits of NetFrontOS - a theoretical simplified phone OS that would also allow (through a StyleTap-like environment) legacy PalmOS apps to run. Protein APIs and other needless Cobalt-derived complexities be damned. Since no one (especially developers!) cares about or needs the Protein APIs, its death would not be mourned and the decisions become a lot more obvious. Going with the NetFront APIs instead of Cobalt (Protein) APIs would presumably allow Access to have their cake (NetFrontOS) and eat it (simplified PalmOS via PACE/StyleTap) too.
Hope you didn't hurt yourself with your little seizure there, Marty.
Take care.
Marty's cryin' my Lord, Kumbayah...
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
"The reason I pick on Skippy's confused sloppy statements is because it leads people like Twizza to write So what you are saying David is basically that Access could simply leverage the PalmOS as to only being a browser and then resort to running PACE within the browser (a plugin if you will).
and the answer to that is no. PACE doesn't run within the browser, it runs along side it. There has to be a window manager that can cope with both the PalmOS UI for windows and the browser's requirements for window rendering. It would be, roughly, like running firefox and IE at the same time on windows.
What PSRC has to supply to Access, then, is the underlying Linux kernel, plus that window manager plus glue. That plus either PACE or Cobalt plus Netfront makes NPL."
I see what you mean Marty. Thanks for that explaination.
Weirdly enough, looking at what you said and then what TVOR has been saying sounds like a similar conversation, just at two different development points. Tis interesting none the less. Thanks much to all.
mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
In case you didn't notice, I've been talking about the relative benefits of NetFrontOS - a theoretical simplified phone OS that would also allow (through a StyleTap-like environment) legacy PalmOS apps to run.
Yes you have. But you've been describing it in sloppy confusing language. Language that seems to indicate the degree to which you actually understand it.
Protein APIs and other needless Cobalt-derived complexities be damned. Since no one (especially developers!) cares about or needs the Protein APIs, its death would not be mourned and the decisions become a lot more obvious. Going with the NetFront APIs instead of Cobalt (Protein) APIs would presumably allow Access to have their cake (NetFrontOS) and eat it (simplified PalmOS via PACE/StyleTap) too.
It's not an either/or decision. It's NetFront APIs plus some subset of PalmOS APIs. Throwing the NetFront APIs on top of Linux doesn't do anything one way or the other about how to solve the PalmOS-on-Linux problem.
That's the part that you and a lot of people seem to keep missing. To have PalmOS compatibility, it's necessary to implement PalmOS APIs.
The interesting question is which PalmOS APIs will be implemented. Followed, closely, by Beers' point about whether the NetFront or PalmOS APIs will win the mindshare of future developers.
And, of course, the joker in the deck is CMS's mPhone APIs...
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: I don't like this.
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: I don't like this.
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: I don't like this.
Garnet is starting to look good to me somehow. To bad it's little more than driftwood floating on a dead sea.
-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: I don't like this.
Imagine what Netfront could deliver to their licensees: A Linux-based browser running 30 000 apps right of the bat, completely isolated from the hardware. It would be similar to Opera mini, which runs on dumb phones with java-lite browsers. It would certainly make the Netfront browser-based UI more of a platform.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
RE: I don't like this.
Surur, that statement is so nonsensical it makes my head hurt.
Browsers don't run aps. GUI aps can't be completely isolated from the hardware given the current state of the art in software design. Having a JVM inside a browser won't do a thing to magically cause 30000 aps written in other languages to run on the platform.
May You Live in Interesting Times
Keep up with the obfuscation, Marty...
Surur, that statement is so nonsensical it makes my head hurt.
Browsers don't run aps. GUI aps can't be completely isolated from the hardware given the current state of the art in software design. Having a JVM inside a browser won't do a thing to magically cause 30000 aps written in other languages to run on the platform.
Your head isn't hurting because of the statement, Marty. It's because of the cumulative effect of all those biotchslappings you've received here over the past few months. You might want to see a neurologist and get an MRI to delineate the severity of your cortical atrophy.
Don't play dumb, Marty. (You were only playing dumb, right?) I assume Surur is referring to the Access/NetFront next-generation OS (not just NetFront the browser) being able to run PalmOS apps as well. While the apps might have to be run more like StyleTap than like Java, I think you understand what he's getting at. I love how you and Beersy keep trying to obfuscate while contributing precisely NOTHING.
Here's an idea. If you can say anything without having PalmSource's lawyers rip you a new one for breaking your NDA, can you come up with a few ways to run PalmOS apps within the framework of NetFront-as-platform? How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.
Don't be a hater, Marty. It's time you "let go" of your baggage. Let's all be friends. Gather 'round the Palminfcenter campfire and hold hands, Marty. Kumbayah! Marty's cryin' my Lord, Kumbayah...
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: I don't like this.
re StyleTap:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8387#118584
How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.
You could do it if you had an OS to run the emulator in. Now where would ACCESS go to find an OS for their Palm OS emulator? Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. I'm sure they're just like you, Missy, sitting around in the dirt scratching their heads trying to riddle that one out.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
We're here for you, Beersy. Stay safe, Buddy...
re StyleTap:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8387#118584
How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.
You could do it if you had an OS to run the emulator in. Now where would ACCESS go to find an OS for their Palm OS emulator? Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. I'm sure they're just like you, Missy, sitting around in the dirt scratching their heads trying to riddle that one out.
The 5 Stages of Beersy's Grief over the Death of PalmOS:
DENIAL
ANGER
BARGAINING
DEPRESSION
ACCEPTANCE
It's time for you to "let go" of PalmOS, Beersy. You need to move on to "Acceptance" and achieve closure with PalmOS. Don't worry. We're here for you, Buddy.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: I don't like this.
Skippy, I'm glad you take Neils Bohr's admonishment (Never express yourself more clearly than you think) to heart, but I'd rather express myself more clearly than you seem capable of, if you don't mind.
See my comments elsewhere about what "platform" means in this context. Given that explanation, I can think of three: 1) the current public plan of record: Cobalt on top of Linux with NetFront running along side it; 2) Ressurecting Tapwave's PalmOS on Linux or 3) giving up on Cobalt APIs and running PACE
How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.
How long did it take Tapwave?
May You Live in Interesting Times
Divining the future
Skippy, I'm glad you take Neils Bohr's admonishment (Never express yourself more clearly than you think) to heart, but I'd rather express myself more clearly than you seem capable of, if you don't mind.
Penicillin may save you yet, Marty. Tabes dorsalis must be a biotch to live with...
See my comments elsewhere about what "platform" means in this context. Given that explanation, I can think of three: 1) the current public plan of record: Cobalt on top of Linux with NetFront running along side it; 2) Ressurecting Tapwave's PalmOS on Linux or 3) giving up on Cobalt APIs and running PACE
1) Would have taken too long. And you KNOW Access has dumped Cobalt, Marty.
2) The porting of Linux to the Zodiac is not quite the same as running PalmOS on a Linux kernel, Marty...
3) As you know all too well, this is a done deal. Cobalt and its lepromatous APIs are DEAD.
>>>How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.
How long did it take Tapwave?
I think Flores said it took less than 8 months to bring Linux onto the Zodiac. Of course, Tapwave's codemonkeys were an order of magnitude more skilled than the (barely) warm bodies PalmSource had on its payroll... PalmSource should have hired every single Tapwave engineer and dumped some of the Sunnyvale flotsam when they had the chance.
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
Hooray for Linux!
Palm m125 December 25, 2002 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to November 2, 2005 > palmOne Zire 72 November 2, 2005 to present
PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketing!
Why even bother?
Looks like the job search isn't going well for PalmSource. Not too many positions are getting filled. I wonder why? Could it be the stench of DEATH that's all over the building? Hmmmmmmm...
http://careers.hodes.com/palmsource/joblist.asp
It's interesting that PalmSource has retained the services of the Bernard Hodes Group in their recruiting efforts. They specialize in filling hard-to-fill openings...
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketi
http://www.pocketfactory.com/images/osforfood.jpg
-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketi
Sounds like you're the one who needs the anti-depressants. The Treo 6xx series has sold 2 - 3 million units, and every couple of months they seem to start selling in a new global market. Handheld shipments are down (mostly *because* of devices like the Treo) but Palm OS's share of that market has increased over the last year, not decreased. Palm alone owns almost half the handheld market worldwide. That's something like 3 million units in 2005.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketing!
"Where, O' where has my little 800p gone? "
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketi
Honestly, though, does anyone outside this little group of fanatics care? Forget the LifeDrive. I'm talking about the Treos, now, which are the largest part of Palm's business. Palm doesn't seem to have any trouble at all selling them, and selling them, and selling them. And the buzz is practically all good. Whatever problems it might have, the Treo is treated as the gold standard for all the other smart phones to be judged by.
It's probably a reflection of the fact that for whatever we see the failings of the Treo, the alternatives are considered to be failing at least as badly. WM 5 has really been a disappointment. Even Surer says he doesn't want to "downgrade" to it. RIM's doing well, but it's got problems of its own and there are as many people who say they hate their Crackberries as those who say they're addicted.
The truth of the matter is that there is a huge opportunity for improvement in mobile devices that no company has managed to seize yet.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Totally irrelevant aside - sort of...
> Not too many positions are getting filled. I wonder why? Could
> it be the stench of DEATH that's all over the building?...
I once interviewed for a position at a well-known simulator company (built submarine simulators, flight simulators, etc). At the time the company was undergoing some pretty strong turmoil - restructuring, layoffs, general malaise (sp?) amongst the employees.
EVERY person I interviewed with at the company from Human Resources to Managers to tech employee grunts WITHOUT exception said the equivalent of (if not outright):
== You don't want to work here.
An interesting experience...
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketi
Oh yeah. Sing it, baby!
Most end-users do absolutely nothing more with their phones than what comes in the box. And if that's all you use your Treo for, then you'll very, very likely have an almost 100% bug-free, crash-free experience. Mine has only *ever* crashed on a phone call once, and that's probably because I was mucking around between apps while I was doing it. Even the oft-scorned Versamail is fairly stable with the latest ROM updates.
And to those who constantly criticise "build quality": the 650's build quality is just fine thankyou. Mine's been through almost a year of completely caseless use, been dropped several times onto hard surfaces and has come through with nothing but a few nicks and scratches.
It's possible I got the only well-built Treo in existence, but I doubt it. I think it's rather more likely that most users are more than satisfied with both build quality and stability.
It's the looks and the marketing that need to be worked on. If the Treo was as pretty as a RAZR or an iPod, it would be unstoppable.
Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketi
Many of the whingers here forget the realities of the average guy in the street using a handheld. They don't muck around installing shed-loads of apps from PalmGear. They don't hanker for multi-tasking (even though my T3 is very happy playing Mp3 music whilst I am running the quite demanding TomTom Navigator 5 software in full-on HVGA landscape mode).
In short all of the 'shortcomings' of Garnet are only really an issue for geeks, who want something new every five minutes anyway.
Each iteration of Windows has an increasingly long shelf life (I still visit many NT4 servers at my customer premises), why should we expect Palm OS to be different? Garnet has life in it yet (for the masses) and as long as Palm get the QA right with the 700p, it should have a long fruitful life.
DecontamiNator
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketing!
And, kids, what ALL of you fail to realize is that all of the bulky, ungainly, feeble spec'd Treos that the teeming masses seem to love so much have to FIRST be purchaed by the carriers. If the CARRIERS (who buy on things like EVDO radios, screen resolution/size, PTT functionality etc in addition to the almightly price) deem Palm's Treo offerings to be unworthy of purchase then you're SOL unless you want to try to snag an unlocked GSM variant...but even that is a moot point with the only concrete news of new Treos being for CDMA variants.
So, yes, it's crucial for Palm to get reliable new product out in a semi-regular fashion and have the specs be at least a bit more than "just barely good enough for last year". I grew accustomed to having 64mb of RAM in '03 with the T|C and T3. 32mb in 2006 onwards with a Treo 650 shackled to a 2-year contract is NOT going to cut it no matter how judiciously you juggle your memory usage.
Besides, all it takes are two or three FrankenGarnet endless reset loops to convince ANYONE--especially a six-figure+ Gordon Gekko exec-tpe--to trade that "cheap" Treo in for a "reliable" RAZR.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketi
Those figures include the now dead 600 series as well. These are TOTAL shipments, not quarterly or monthly. Quarterly volume levels are considerably lower than that, around 300-400k last time I checked, which isn't nearly as robust as past total handheld shipments that once numbered over well over one million units. What's worse, the Treo's rise in sales has failed to offset the decline of handheld shipments. What keeps Palm firing on all eight cylinders, in terms of profitability, is the Treo's disproportional higher profit margins. In short..Palm makes a LOT of money off each Treo.
Second...Windows Mobile is now part of the Treo line as well, so you're going to have to factor that in the next time you interpret demand for Treos as an endorsement for Palm OS.
-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketi
I don't doubt that this could be the case, but I haven't seen these numbers. Got a link?
It seems to me that since the Treos recently crossed the invisible line where they sell more than Palm handhelds, the fact that Treo growth YOY exceeds handheld decline for Palm means there must be an overall increase in Palm OS shipments. Haven't we seen the numbers to indicate that this was the state of things--at least prior to the 700w? (Sorry, too lazy to go searching.)
As for the 700w cannibalizing the Palm OS Treos, we'll just have to wait and see which way the net cannibalization goes after the various releases planned this year, won't we? That's unlikely to be something we have data on until this time next year.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketi
That's probably the highest compliment one can be paid on this board! ;) Thanks.
An informal poll for all PIC readers: if you can pick any person or group of people from this board to run Palm, who do you pick?
Personally, I'd go for TVoR and David. It's the Mulder-and-Scully approach: one spinning far-out theories, the other debunking them. It's a match made in heaven. Provided they don't kill each other first...
Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: PalmSource looking for a new Director of Product Marketing!
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
Palm OS shipments growing, not declining
"The Treo 6xx series has sold 2 - 3 million units, and every couple of months they seem to start selling in a new global market."
Foo Fighter replied:
Those figures include the now dead 600 series as well. These are TOTAL shipments, not quarterly or monthly. Quarterly volume levels are considerably lower than that, around 300-400k last time I checked, which isn't nearly as robust as past total handheld shipments that once numbered over well over one million units. What's worse, the Treo's rise in sales has failed to offset the decline of handheld shipments. What keeps Palm firing on all eight cylinders, in terms of profitability, is the Treo's disproportional higher profit margins. In short..Palm makes a LOT of money off each Treo.
I got some numbers now: according to Gartner, Palm sold about 4.7 million Palm OS devices in 2005. Of those, almost 2.8 million were handhelds, of which Palm sold slightly *more* in 2005 than they had in 2004. There was no "decline" as you described. The other couple of million devices shipped last year were Treos. My previous estimate was actually low. I don't have 2004 numbers on Treo sales, but given the fact that the 650 has sold probably twice as fast as the 600, despite getting off to a slow start with supply problems, I think it's safe to say that Palm OS smartphone shipments grew at a very healthy pace over the last year.
Now, in terms of market share, it's true that Palm OS has been steadily slipping against WM, Symbian, and Linux. My point is simply that unless I'm missing something the overall mobile device market is growing so fast that Palm OS still experiences growth despite that loss of share.
I'd say directing product marketing for a software company with global shipments of 5 million units a year in a market as dynamic as mobile device systems would be a great opportunity and challenge for someone with the right talents.
As for freakout's suggesting that TVoR and I should run Palm Inc., that's about the most insane thing I've ever read on PIC, which is saying quite a lot. I'm not even sure where to begin... so I think I won't.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
One weird Question/Observation
Has anyone ever wondered why it hasn't been made available for download. It's not like carriers would have much to lose if it were available (heck you could aruge the gain with the full data packages being taken by the heavy users).
mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: One weird Question/Observation
Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
Latest Comments
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- RE: Palm brand will return in 2018, with devices built by TCL -dmitrygr
- Palm phone on HDblog -palmato
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PalmOS?
So whatever happened to PalmOS?
Someone tell me again why these morons bought PSRC? And at such a huge premium???