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ACCESS Details the Next Version of NetFront

ACCESS today announced some details about the next version of thier NetFront Browser at the 3GSM Conference. NetFront v3.4 is moving from a browser technology to a "Versatile Service Platform," where multiple applications can seamlessly combine online and offline content. This new version adds support for AJAX technologies, and plug-ins that will enable office documents and video content to be displayed within the browser.

Moving beyond Internet full browsing toward rich content rendering, NetFront Browser v3.4 is designed to support AJAX (Asynchronous JavaScript + XML) which is the core technology powering many Web 2.0 applications, the latest SMIL2.1 specification (W3C SMIL Mobile Profile and W3C SMIL extended Mobile Profile) which was released in December 2005 and SVG Tiny 1.2.

NetFront Browser v3.4 can be flexibly configured to support Adobe PDF files, office documents, Flash content and Video via Plug-ins. Extensions to the browser APIs simplify the creation of various applications, which take advantage of NetFront Browser's advanced rendering capabilities for rich Internet content, such as browser application, messaging clients, RSS news reader and other Dynamic Menu applications.

Other new version highlights include support for visual bookmarks, a stunning graphical experience to manage favorite Webpages and "PagePilot," a pan and zoom navigation tool for a Desktop-like presentation of Web pages on mobile devices with limited screen size. The new active home page framework makes it possible to access browser functionality from a webpage.

"NetFront Browser v3.4's unique technologies provides mobile device manufacturers and operators with a powerful market advantage that is simply unmatched by anyone," said Toru Arakawa, president and CEO of ACCESS. "We are extremely pleased to be able to bring this advanced mobile browser solution to the millions of mobile Internet end-users throughout the world."

NetFront Browser v3.4 will be available at the end of March 2006.

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PalmOS?

Gekko @ 2/13/2006 7:45:09 PM # Q

So whatever happened to PalmOS?

Someone tell me again why these morons bought PSRC? And at such a huge premium???



RE: PalmOS?
palmdoc88 @ 2/13/2006 8:07:41 PM # Q
Perhaps just be patient and wait for the news? :P

T3 & T5 user
RE: PalmOS?
cervezas @ 2/13/2006 9:04:58 PM # Q
Perhaps just be patient and wait for the news?

And miss an opportunity to prove he's a complete idiot? Not Gekko!

Gekko, just in case you weren't trying to be stupid and it just sort of happened by accident, let me help you out. The month we are in is called February. It's in a season we call Winter. The next version of PalmSource's OS isn't supposed to be released until Summer. That's two seasons away from Winter. If it doesn't get shipped to the licensees in the Summer, THEN you can come back and do this little shtick of yours again. K?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PalmOS?
Gekko @ 2/13/2006 9:16:22 PM # Q

beersie - my skepticism is well founded. your naivete is annoying.



RE: PalmOS?
Dr Opinion @ 2/13/2006 10:59:19 PM # Q
> "...Someone tell me again why these morons bought PSRC? And at such a huge premium???"

Because PSRC are developing an OS that makes wince obsolete, and ACCESS (and a number of other parties) wanted a piece of that groovy palm-on-linux wince-busting action.

Of course, with "vista mobile" already on public test devices, wince is obviously, well, already obsolete. But that's nothing new, right? Afterall, Microsuck has pretty much closed down development of wince, and put all those developers into the XBox group... you knew that, right? :)

> "...your naivete is annoying..."

Your whiney-assed continued existence on our board is annoying.

But what's new? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Reply to this comment

Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 7:50:14 PM # Q
http://www.access.co.jp/english/ir/ir_shiryo/s040915_03.pdf

http://www.access-us-inc.com/pdf/access_in_news/LinuxWorld_09_04.pdf

http://www.access-sys-eu.com/dynamic_menu.html

(Props to Surur for the original detective work.)

***********************************************************************


I hope no one's clueless enough to ask "Where's PalmOS?" in all of this. NetFront could not possibly ship NetFrontLinux until 2007 at the earliest (and NEVER at the latest).



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
cervezas @ 2/13/2006 8:23:08 PM # Q
"begun"?

This is old news being recycled as new by ACCESS because of 3GSM. Most of this browser-based application engine has already been shipping for some time. Looks to me like they've just made some refinements and added support for XMLHTTPRequest so you can use the regular version of GMail. The Dynamic Menu stuff was shipping the last time we talked about this some months ago. Remember? The time I pointed out the embarrassing mistake you and Surer made by thinking ACCESS was going to "port" the Palm OS to a markup language so it would run inside the browser?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 9:19:40 PM # Q
The time I pointed out the embarrassing mistake you and Surer made by thinking ACCESS was going to "port" the Palm OS to a markup language so it would run inside the browser?

Ummmmm... when did I ever say "ACCESS was going to "port" the Palm OS to a markup language so it would run inside the browser"? Links PLEASE. You need to get a clue, Beersy. I've suggested 2 ways for NetFront to be integrated with PalmOS: the easy way and the hard way. Try not to put words in my mouth, Hackborn-style. I might just turn around and shove them back down your throat. (Though I'm sure that with as much practice taking things deep as you've had over the years you probably wouldn't gag.)

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

3 options to integrate NetFront with PalmOS:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 9:29:13 PM # Q
1) PalmOS-dominant.

Regular PalmOS working as it does now with Netfront simply added to the ROM and possibly used as an app launcher (see AppShelf for how this might look). Easy to do, but what's the point? Why bother? And unless PalmLinux was ready + stable, why trust the heavy lifting to an ancient, buggy OS (PalmOS 5)?

2) NetFront-dominant.

NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed. But why feature seemingly-weaker framework (NetFrontOS) in preference to a (potentially) more flexible framework (PalmLinux)? [Of course this assumes Access hasn't given up on PalmLinux...]

3) NetFront fully integrated with PalmOS.

NetFront as the new PalmOS UI + file manager. All data/apps within (RAM + expansion cards) and without (Wi-Fi, remote access, Internet, Intranet) controlled through browser paradigm. Bold, but would be a fairly large undertaking and is predicated on Access being confident that PalmLinux is a viable platform.

**********************************************************************


TVoR expects the announcement soon that PalmLinux has been formerly canned and thrown into the same dumpster as Cobalt 6.0 and Cobalt 6.1. With no future in PalmLinux, option #3 is an unlikely longshot, but perhaps DoCoMo is willing to fund this - most ambitious - vision of NetFrontLinux + wait 18 - 24 months to see if it all pans out.

So looking at options 1 and 2, which is more likely? Both essentially represent PalmSource and Access IP functioning rather independently, yet living in the same "house". Given how poorly-suited PalmOS 5 is to next-generation telephony, NetFrontOS might be a better foundation, with PalmOS apps being launched or emulated within this framework. Notwithstanding Beersy's attempts to twist the facts, a NetFront-dominant OS seems to be the most likely compromise.

***********************************************************************


PalmOS is DEAD. Long live PalmOS!

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
cervezas @ 2/13/2006 9:35:01 PM # Q
Just click on the link that you yourself put at the bottom of every single one of your posts and start reading:

This NetFront-as-platform manifesto is probably the future of PalmOS revealed....

The NetFront browser-as-UI paradigm would be a pretty bold step....

Of course you're typically incoherent as the thread goes on, switching mid-sentence between describing parsed mark-up and scripting languages in one breath and compiled procedural code in the next, then back again as if they were one and the same:

Google's plug-ins show what can be done when one takes a step back and creatively thinks about UI issues. With new PalmOS apps being written to the Protein APIs, with robust multitasking being built into PalmLinux, with even the most casual of users now being comfortable with a browser interface, and with an always-on wireless connection likely being the centerpoint of all future mobile devices, having apps plug in to a browser-style "launcher" definitely seems both understandable and doable. Not necessarily my cup of tea, but I doubt PalmSource's UI Kiddies wouldn't have too much switching ideas from Rome to a browser paradigm.

Shall I continue? I could quote some of Surer's silliness, which you replied to with approbation, but I won't because Surer is bright enough not to parade his occasional brain farts in every post he makes here.

Gotta remind you of this part, though. Here's where, to your credit, you finally started to realize you were making absolutely no sense at all and began furiously back-pedaling to a different story: the browser is no longer generating the UI; instead it's just an app launcher, now:

imagine the BROWSER interface as app launcher + file manager, with a pop-up/drop-down list of ALL apps; customisable links (e.g. icons on a DIA) to frequently used apps (both Protein or 68K), email program, contacts, schedule, websites, folders, etc.

Using a browser as a launcher to local resources on the device is something that Nokia and Motorola have been doing for at least two years on phones the operators give away for free. Anything but "bold" and nothing to do with the Palm OS.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
Surur @ 2/13/2006 10:11:11 PM # Q

I still dont see why a POS java-like web plug-in wont happen. You have not refuted it either, that I could recall.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
cervezas @ 2/13/2006 10:15:12 PM # Q
Surer, yes, of course they could create something that would render within the confines of a browser window. We're not talking about the browser being a UI engine in the case of an applet, though. The Java applet UI is created by something called AWT (advanced windowing toolkit) which isn't part of the browser and is in no really interesting way integrated with the browser aside from sharing some screen real estate and a network resource. In fact, the browser actually subtracts functionality from the Applet: it limits Java's access to local system resources like the file system for example. What you need to understand is that the only way the applet runs in the browser is if the user has a JRE installed and if they have the JRE they don't need the browser to run the applet as a free-standing application. It's as if you tried to tell me you can take me to San Jose on your flying carpet and then when I call your bluff it turned out the carpet "flies" on the back of a flatbed truck. Yeah, it still gets me there, but for all the trouble I'd just as soon ride in the cab where there's air conditioning, thanks. And you still had to buy the truck to make your carpet fly anyway.

I'm sorry, I guess I shouldn't be so smug about this, but you know... I'm talking to VoR. From the standpoint of a non-programmer I guess it's not obvious that there is a fundamental difference between something like HTML and JavaScript on the one hand, which are based on parsing a document object model, and a GUI like the Palm OS on the other, which uses code compiled to machine language that directly draws to screen buffers and what not. There's really no way to subtly mix the two or cleverly convert from one to the other. You're either letting the browser create the UI from a document (HTML + JavaScript + DOM) or you're telling the browser to step aside and let the UI be created by pure code, something that browsers have no concept of--they can't read it or manipulate it.

So what I'm saying is that ACCESS can use the browser to do things like launch both browser and native applications (go back and refer to that diagram you dug up) and the Palm OS can be that native application framework. Or if ACCESS wants to have the browser do all the UI rendering, they will have to jettison the Palm OS and just create something from scratch that looks like it. The in-between thing you are thinking of is not practical and it wouldn't be interesting even if they achieved it.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Get a clue, Beersy.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 10:18:55 PM # Q
Beersy, as usual you can't see the forest for the trees (or the toilet for your a$$). How Access launches PalmOS apps from within a NetFrontOS framework would be a matter of preference for their engineers. Most PalmOS apps are ALREADY running under an emulator these days. StyleTap Platform has shown us how easy it is to run PalmOS apps within a PPC/Windows Mobile environment. Perhaps you can tell the court why you feel PalmOS apps couldn't be run within another framework (NetFrontOS).


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: The future of PalmOS?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 10:31:29 PM # Q
Beersy, I'd suggest you ask a few recently departed PalmSource engineers which scenario is The Truth. I suspect you'll be disappointed to learn it is:

2) NetFront-dominant.

NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed.

Advantages:
- Simple - Access might even get away with just coding a StyleTap Platform-like emulator to run PalmOS apps
- Little danger of a Cobalt-style catastrophe in which the emperor is revealed to have no clothes (years after the OS was supposed to debut)
- Platform starts immediately with a HUGE app library ("over 20,000 apps")
- Developers can keep on using their familiar old tools
- Previous investment in NetFrontOS is not wasted
- Likely better control + security for operators with NetFrontOS compared to PalmOS 5. It may be possible to limit PalmOS apps to a "sandbox" to prevent any rogue behaviour.

Disadvantages:
- Slower speed when running PalmOS apps
- Inability to truly multitask with PalmOS apps
- Somewhat of a KludgeOS compared to what a ground up fresh integration of PalmOS and NetFront could be.

**************************************************************************


Put your money where your (mealy) mouth is, Beersy. Let's hear YOU go on record stating what you feel the future PalmOS will look like. Otherwise S T F U.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
PenguinPowered @ 2/13/2006 11:04:10 PM # Q
NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed.

Only someone who had no idea whan an operating system actually is could write a sentence as incoherent as the above.

Care to try to translate it into some form of coherent English?



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
cervezas @ 2/13/2006 11:06:17 PM # Q
I won't pretend to know whether NetFront or the PalmSource middleware will be the "dominant" API. The market will tell. But the two will be entirely different things with different languages, APIs, tools, and architectures. ACCESS already has an SDK for NetFront and from what I can see they'll build that out and gradually make their browser work as a UI rendering engine for applications using the APIs documented in that SDK. The PalmSource middleware will provide a way to run a different set of third party apps, whose GUI will be generated entirely by that middleware, not by NetFront.

NetFront on Palm OS has always been a Palm OS application. It uses Palm OS system calls to perform low level graphics operations and memory management, for example. I expect PalmSource's system to expose the same kinds of low level services for NetFront. This could also enable the browser to integrate with the PalmSource middleware in some interesting ways much like Palm Query Applications used to (remember those?). (Too tired to elaborate now, but I've written about it here before.) The browser will run inside a window created by the underlying system, not the other way around. And the developer who uses the NetFront SDK will probably not have to know much of anything about the Cobalt API because they will be working at a higher level, manipulating objects in the DOM with JavaScript and HTML--web development with some kind of local server running that enables you to run 3rd party NetFront apps even in offline mode.

None of the disadvantages you describe to a "NetFront dominant" platform are in any way logical conclusions of such dominance, Voice. Although it's possible that, as Marty has suggested, ACCESS will decide to start shipping only PACE so you'll have limited multi-tasking, that's not what ACCESS has said they're planning right now.

That's all I have time for right now.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Since English is your second language, Marty:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 11:16:59 PM # Q
>>>NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed.

Only someone who had no idea whan an operating system actually is could write a sentence as incoherent as the above.

Care to try to translate it into some form of coherent English?

Just for you Marty, Sweetie:

NetFrontOS - the phone OS

Graft on an environment that PalmOS apps can run in within the box enclosed by NetFrontOS.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
Dr Opinion @ 2/13/2006 11:25:31 PM # Q
> "...NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed..."

NetFront is a *browser*, moron. It can't be a "core OS". :)

Like, duh.

Still, I won't be too hard on you. 50% of people are below average IQ. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
PenguinPowered @ 2/13/2006 11:27:38 PM # Q
Ah, so the answer is "No" then.

Thought so, Skippy.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
twizza @ 2/13/2006 11:48:09 PM # Q
Hold a sec, I am no programmer and so pardon my questioning, but from the looks of EyeOS (the AJAX browser based operating system in current development), it would be possible to run PalmOS apps via a plugin type application within the NetFront Browser. Yes, I understand the current modus operandi in that a browser needs an OS to run on etcetera; but if Access has their own small footprint OS, does the work to rework the kernal to support a Linux-based one, and then turns their browser into a shell (see yahoo's mail plus beta, eyeOS, and a other AJAX offerings), then it could well be possible right?

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
cervezas @ 2/13/2006 11:57:13 PM # Q
twizza:
You *can* make an interesting platform that's all browser-based, no question. What's kinda neat about the idea is that you can leverage common web development skills to enable users to create not just web applications, but also applications that operate on local data by running in a server on the device. I haven't looked at EyeOS, but they're probably doing something like that.

What you can't do is get Palm OS to run on a system like this. It's a completely different architecture.

Somebody mentioned StyleTap. And yeah, if for some reason you wanted to create your own complete OS that can proxy all the calls the Palm OS makes down to the metal using another native API, you could, theoretically do this. But there's no reason I can think of to add this extra layer if you don't already own a Windows CE.

Access bought PalmSource because they wanted a system that would be *under* their browser in an API sense, not off to the side somewhere. Browsers need operating systems to run, so if PalmSource isn't going to provide that, who is? Understand: NetFront will run *on* the PalmSource OS. This doesn't exclude the sad possibility that it will someday become the main way people interact with the OS. Maybe for some reason the Cobalt middleware will be considered inferior and ACCESS will say they don't think people care about running Protein apps, so they'll remove that middleware, leaving only the kernel, system services, and some low-level application stack that's only responsible for running a PACE environment. I think that's the view that Marty has of where things will go. I'm not convinced.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 11:59:22 PM # Q
I won't pretend to know whether NetFront or the PalmSource middleware will be the "dominant" API. The market will tell. But the two will be entirely different things with different languages, APIs, tools, and architectures. ACCESS already has an SDK for NetFront and from what I can see they'll build that out and gradually make their browser work as a UI rendering engine for applications using the APIs documented in that SDK. The PalmSource middleware will provide a way to run a different set of third party apps, whose GUI will be generated entirely by that middleware, not by NetFront.

Beersy, nice to hear you expand on what dumba$$es like Dr Opinion is too dull to understand and what Marty pretends to not understand (i.e. that we're talking about a NetFront PLATFORM, not the PalmOS NetFront browser). The combination OS I envision would be more akin to PalmOS running within StyleTap Platform on Windows Mobile (rather than a pseudo dual-boot computer with 2 OSes [NetFrontOS and PalmOS/PACE] switching rapidly to do screen writes when each became the "active" OS. (It would be interesting to find out if it would be even technically possible to rapidly cycle between 2 different OSes on the same device without the user noticing. Saved states in PalmOS might make this feasible...)

NetFront on Palm OS has always been a Palm OS application. It uses Palm OS system calls to perform low level graphics operations and memory management, for example. I expect PalmSource's system to expose the same kinds of low level services for NetFront. This could also enable the browser to integrate with the PalmSource middleware in some interesting ways much like Palm Query Applications used to (remember those?). (Too tired to elaborate now, but I've written about it here before.) The browser will run inside a window created by the underlying system, not the other way around. And the developer who uses the NetFront SDK will probably not have to know much of anything about the Cobalt API because they will be working at a higher level, manipulating objects in the DOM with JavaScript and HTML--web development with some kind of local server running that enables you to run 3rd party NetFront apps even in offline mode.

Interesting ideas - for reasons of better overall integration, it might make more sense for the future NetFrontOS to have NetFront (the browser) remain a PalmOS app.

None of the disadvantages you describe to a "NetFront dominant" platform are in any way logical conclusions of such dominance, Voice.

If a StyleTap-like framework was used to run PalmOS apps, I believe these disadvantages still apply:

- Slower speed when running PalmOS apps
- Inability to truly multitask with PalmOS apps
- Somewhat of a KludgeOS compared to what a ground up fresh integration of PalmOS and NetFront could be.

Although it's possible that, as Marty has suggested, ACCESS will decide to start shipping only PACE so you'll have limited multi-tasking, that's not what ACCESS has said they're planning right now.

That's all I have time for right now.

Marty slipped up when he admitted that Access is "dumbing down" the next-generation PalmOS. It's too bad, but that's probably the most practical option for Access. I don't consider PACE to have what we should be calling "multi-tasking". (We should reserve that term for OSes that can easily have several apps open + working at the same time.)

Interesting discussion so far - too bad certain dumba$$es seem intent on spoiling it.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 12:40:02 AM # Q
Somebody mentioned StyleTap. And yeah, if for some reason you wanted to create your own complete OS that can proxy all the calls the Palm OS makes down to the metal using another native API, you could, theoretically do this. But there's no reason I can think of to add this extra layer if you don't already own a Windows CE.

Why not? I think you're over-valuing the importance of PalmOS retaining primacy, Beersy. You're closeness to PalmOS has blinded you to the fact that if a potential solution WORKS and the user is unaware of any downside to that solution then it's a viable solution. StyleTap was relatively easy to code by a group of outsiders. Access presumably know a thing or two about both NetFrontOS ans PalmOS and therfore should have no difficulty coding StyleTap for NetFrontOS ("LoveTapô?).

Access bought PalmSource because they wanted a system that would be *under* their browser in an API sense, not off to the side somewhere.

Are you SURE that's why they bought PalmSource? Or did they buy PalmSource because it gave then a turnkey platform with HUGE name recognition (and a large app library) to leverage their cellphone OS onto the carriers?

Browsers need operating systems to run, so if PalmSource isn't going to provide that, who is?

Access. With their browser-based? NetFrontOS.

Understand: NetFront will run *on* the PalmSource OS.

Correction: NetFront CURRENTLY runs on PalmOS. The reverse may be (loosely) true in a year or two.

This doesn't exclude the sad possibility that it will someday become the main way people interact with the OS.

Why sad? If it works, is stable and intuitive, BRING IT ON!

Maybe for some reason the Cobalt middleware will be considered inferior and ACCESS will say they don't think people care about running Protein apps, so they'll remove that middleware, leaving only the kernel, system services, and some low-level application stack that's only responsible for running a PACE environment. I think that's the view that Marty has of where things will go. I'm not convinced.

Beersy, your fondness for PalmOS is clouding your mind. Try to become more cold and calculating (TVoR-like!) and think what you would do if you were Access. I believe Protein APIs and most of Cobalt have now been abandoned in favor of the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Legacy PalmOS apps + easy coding of traditional Palm APIs married to the new-fangled NetFrontOS, which will be expanded to handle telephony, wireless connectivity, etc. Very slick, simple AND practical. (i.e. The opposite of Cobalt! No Be engineers could ever have come up with a plan like that...)


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
twizza @ 2/14/2006 12:41:10 AM # Q
Ok, last one before I meet my bed and rest:

So what you are saying David is basically that Access could simply leverage the PalmOS as to only being a browser and then resort to running PACE within the browser (a plugin if you will). And then when they deem that the PalmOS oldies have had enough, they pull the plug and are left with a Linux-backboned, browser-based OS, that just might everage AJAX-like functionality and none of the headache of the PACE layer and PalmOS oldies. In their position, I'd do it like this.

TVOR, I agree to some extent about the sysstem performance taking a hit. But I wonder if there will be any "native" Netfront apps that would step into play here (if you will a rerun but done more correctly of a brodge OS). If so, then Access could do this as you state, and still have made for enough dev time to allow for the needed dev to make a truely browser interacted OS.

Marty, in some ways I think this convo is a bit knawing at you because it would probably be here that you know more than what you can say. Personally speaking, I don't want you to say anything that would compromise your former employers. But I do have to wonder that if even you making a comment here and there on a topic like this that was closely related to your job function would be looked at on their side as something to make a case over. Don't let us here get you so riled up that court fees have you using a Visor or Clie. I'd rather you stick around to the end of that time when you can talk and hear what went right and wrong from what it is that you know.

Well, that's all for me. Us young folk need to be heading to bed. Some kinda rest Ima need to get if the threads are going to be this much fun when I get into work in the morning. Cheers and blessings to all.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 12:53:34 AM # Q
sigh

NetFront Browser + SDK + JVM does not a "platform" make. The proper comparison here is to FireFox plus its various plugins + the Sun JVM.

Cobalt is a full up platform. It has a launcher, a window manager with a GUI and an API, an a bunch of support libraries, all living on top of an OS with file systems and device support and raw graphics and so forth.

Linux is just a kernel.

You can have NetFront, even the expanded version proposed by Access for later, as an application suite on any number of operating systems, just as FireFox runs on a wide variety of operating systems.

Talking about NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed. is a lot like talking about Firefox as a core OS with windows being called on like Java to launch apps. It interchanges pieces of systems that aren't interchangable. It's like saying you'll make faster cars by replacing the transmissions with bigger fuel injectors.

Access's public plan of record is that the Linux kernel with Posix APIs is the 'core OS' of what we call various things, including NPL. The same public plan of record says that NetFront will continue to remain OS neutral. They'll be just as happy to sell it to you, as a platform, to run on Symbian and Win-mobile, as they currently are to sell you NetFront Browser.

Access' public plan of record is that NPL will support two API suites, NetFront platform + Cobalt userland / both running on Linux.

Beers is a lot more accurate when he talks about two APIs. Linux users can think of it as having to support both KDE and Gnome on the sam Linux box -- it's roughly of that complexity.

There are two unknowns, the one Beers alludes to: Whether the market will adopt the NetFront platform's API over the Cobalt userland API, and the one Skippy likes to rag on PSRC about: Whether NPL will really support the full up Cobalt API, or whether they'll settle for PACE and only support the existing PalmOS API.

The reason I pick on Skippy's confused sloppy statements is because it leads people like Twizza to write So what you are saying David is basically that Access could simply leverage the PalmOS as to only being a browser and then resort to running PACE within the browser (a plugin if you will).

and the answer to that is no. PACE doesn't run within the browser, it runs along side it. There has to be a window manager that can cope with both the PalmOS UI for windows and the browser's requirements for window rendering. It would be, roughly, like running firefox and IE at the same time on windows.

What PSRC has to supply to Access, then, is the underlying Linux kernel, plus that window manager plus glue. That plus either PACE or Cobalt plus Netfront makes NPL.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 1:33:58 AM # Q
Don't let us here get you so riled up that court fees have you using a Visor or Clie.


I'll get you for that one, Antoine...

;-O

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

NO MORE COFFEE FOR MARTY!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 1:44:50 AM # Q
sigh

NetFront Browser + SDK + JVM does not a "platform" make. The proper comparison here is to FireFox plus its various plugins + the Sun JVM.

Cobalt is a full up platform. It has a launcher, a window manager with a GUI and an API, an a bunch of support libraries, all living on top of an OS with file systems and device support and raw graphics and so forth.

Linux is just a kernel.

You can have NetFront, even the expanded version proposed by Access for later, as an application suite on any number of operating systems, just as FireFox runs on a wide variety of operating systems.

Talking about NetFront as the core OS with PalmOS being called on like Java/PocketC/AppForge/SuperWaba to launch apps as needed. is a lot like talking about Firefox as a core OS with windows being called on like Java to launch apps. It interchanges pieces of systems that aren't interchangable. It's like saying you'll make faster cars by replacing the transmissions with bigger fuel injectors.

Access's public plan of record is that the Linux kernel with Posix APIs is the 'core OS' of what we call various things, including NPL. The same public plan of record says that NetFront will continue to remain OS neutral. They'll be just as happy to sell it to you, as a platform, to run on Symbian and Win-mobile, as they currently are to sell you NetFront Browser.

Access' public plan of record is that NPL will support two API suites, NetFront platform + Cobalt userland / both running on Linux.

Beers is a lot more accurate when he talks about two APIs. Linux users can think of it as having to support both KDE and Gnome on the sam Linux box -- it's roughly of that complexity.

There are two unknowns, the one Beers alludes to: Whether the market will adopt the NetFront platform's API over the Cobalt userland API, and the one Skippy likes to rag on PSRC about: Whether NPL will really support the full up Cobalt API, or whether they'll settle for PACE and only support the existing PalmOS API.

The reason I pick on Skippy's confused sloppy statements is because it leads people like Twizza to write So what you are saying David is basically that Access could simply leverage the PalmOS as to only being a browser and then resort to running PACE within the browser (a plugin if you will).

and the answer to that is no. PACE doesn't run within the browser, it runs along side it. There has to be a window manager that can cope with both the PalmOS UI for windows and the browser's requirements for window rendering. It would be, roughly, like running firefox and IE at the same time on windows.

What PSRC has to supply to Access, then, is the underlying Linux kernel, plus that window manager plus glue. That plus either PACE or Cobalt plus Netfront makes NPL.

Ummmm, Marty... did you take your medicine today?

In case you didn't notice, I've been talking about the relative benefits of NetFrontOS - a theoretical simplified phone OS that would also allow (through a StyleTap-like environment) legacy PalmOS apps to run. Protein APIs and other needless Cobalt-derived complexities be damned. Since no one (especially developers!) cares about or needs the Protein APIs, its death would not be mourned and the decisions become a lot more obvious. Going with the NetFront APIs instead of Cobalt (Protein) APIs would presumably allow Access to have their cake (NetFrontOS) and eat it (simplified PalmOS via PACE/StyleTap) too.

Hope you didn't hurt yourself with your little seizure there, Marty.

Take care.







Marty's cryin' my Lord, Kumbayah...

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
twizza @ 2/14/2006 8:51:05 AM # Q
Marty says:
"The reason I pick on Skippy's confused sloppy statements is because it leads people like Twizza to write So what you are saying David is basically that Access could simply leverage the PalmOS as to only being a browser and then resort to running PACE within the browser (a plugin if you will).

and the answer to that is no. PACE doesn't run within the browser, it runs along side it. There has to be a window manager that can cope with both the PalmOS UI for windows and the browser's requirements for window rendering. It would be, roughly, like running firefox and IE at the same time on windows.

What PSRC has to supply to Access, then, is the underlying Linux kernel, plus that window manager plus glue. That plus either PACE or Cobalt plus Netfront makes NPL."

I see what you mean Marty. Thanks for that explaination.

Weirdly enough, looking at what you said and then what TVOR has been saying sounds like a similar conversation, just at two different development points. Tis interesting none the less. Thanks much to all.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Step 1 in the NetFront-as-platform Manifesto has begun..
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 12:42:23 PM # Q
Don't mind the bold access. I just missed a closing tag. Too bad you can't preview posts. sigh

In case you didn't notice, I've been talking about the relative benefits of NetFrontOS - a theoretical simplified phone OS that would also allow (through a StyleTap-like environment) legacy PalmOS apps to run.

Yes you have. But you've been describing it in sloppy confusing language. Language that seems to indicate the degree to which you actually understand it.

Protein APIs and other needless Cobalt-derived complexities be damned. Since no one (especially developers!) cares about or needs the Protein APIs, its death would not be mourned and the decisions become a lot more obvious. Going with the NetFront APIs instead of Cobalt (Protein) APIs would presumably allow Access to have their cake (NetFrontOS) and eat it (simplified PalmOS via PACE/StyleTap) too.

It's not an either/or decision. It's NetFront APIs plus some subset of PalmOS APIs. Throwing the NetFront APIs on top of Linux doesn't do anything one way or the other about how to solve the PalmOS-on-Linux problem.

That's the part that you and a lot of people seem to keep missing. To have PalmOS compatibility, it's necessary to implement PalmOS APIs.

The interesting question is which PalmOS APIs will be implemented. Followed, closely, by Beers' point about whether the NetFront or PalmOS APIs will win the mindshare of future developers.

And, of course, the joker in the deck is CMS's mPhone APIs...


May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment

I don't like this.

AdamaDBrown @ 2/13/2006 8:13:57 PM # Q
I don't like the sound of any of this.

RE: I don't like this.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 8:24:17 PM # Q
http://tinyurl.com/7ubw7


http://tinyurl.com/95dxs

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: I don't like this.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 8:29:34 PM # Q
http://members.fortunecity.com/wavjunky/swl-h/hapyenuf.wav

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: I don't like this.
Foo Fighter @ 2/13/2006 9:22:16 PM # Q
Nor do I. If you read between the lines you almost get the impression Access intends to embed PACE into some micro-AJAX code, effectively turning Palm OS...as we know it...into some macabre runtime environment.

Garnet is starting to look good to me somehow. To bad it's little more than driftwood floating on a dead sea.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: I don't like this.
Surur @ 2/13/2006 10:16:35 PM # Q

Imagine what Netfront could deliver to their licensees: A Linux-based browser running 30 000 apps right of the bat, completely isolated from the hardware. It would be similar to Opera mini, which runs on dumb phones with java-lite browsers. It would certainly make the Netfront browser-based UI more of a platform.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: I don't like this.
PenguinPowered @ 2/13/2006 11:07:07 PM # Q
Imagine what Netfront could deliver to their licensees: A Linux-based browser running 30 000 apps right of the bat, completely isolated from the hardware.

Surur, that statement is so nonsensical it makes my head hurt.

Browsers don't run aps. GUI aps can't be completely isolated from the hardware given the current state of the art in software design. Having a JVM inside a browser won't do a thing to magically cause 30000 aps written in other languages to run on the platform.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Keep up with the obfuscation, Marty...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/13/2006 11:23:15 PM # Q
>>>Imagine what Netfront could deliver to their licensees: A Linux-based browser running 30 000 apps right of the bat, completely isolated from the hardware.

Surur, that statement is so nonsensical it makes my head hurt.

Browsers don't run aps. GUI aps can't be completely isolated from the hardware given the current state of the art in software design. Having a JVM inside a browser won't do a thing to magically cause 30000 aps written in other languages to run on the platform.

Your head isn't hurting because of the statement, Marty. It's because of the cumulative effect of all those biotchslappings you've received here over the past few months. You might want to see a neurologist and get an MRI to delineate the severity of your cortical atrophy.


Don't play dumb, Marty. (You were only playing dumb, right?) I assume Surur is referring to the Access/NetFront next-generation OS (not just NetFront the browser) being able to run PalmOS apps as well. While the apps might have to be run more like StyleTap than like Java, I think you understand what he's getting at. I love how you and Beersy keep trying to obfuscate while contributing precisely NOTHING.

Here's an idea. If you can say anything without having PalmSource's lawyers rip you a new one for breaking your NDA, can you come up with a few ways to run PalmOS apps within the framework of NetFront-as-platform? How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.

Don't be a hater, Marty. It's time you "let go" of your baggage. Let's all be friends. Gather 'round the Palminfcenter campfire and hold hands, Marty. Kumbayah! Marty's cryin' my Lord, Kumbayah...



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: I don't like this.
cervezas @ 2/14/2006 12:23:38 AM # Q
While TVoR sings his campfire songs...

re StyleTap:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8387#118584

How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.

You could do it if you had an OS to run the emulator in. Now where would ACCESS go to find an OS for their Palm OS emulator? Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. I'm sure they're just like you, Missy, sitting around in the dirt scratching their heads trying to riddle that one out.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

We're here for you, Beersy. Stay safe, Buddy...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 1:12:52 AM # Q
>>>While TVoR sings his campfire songs...

re StyleTap:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8387#118584

How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.

You could do it if you had an OS to run the emulator in. Now where would ACCESS go to find an OS for their Palm OS emulator? Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. I'm sure they're just like you, Missy, sitting around in the dirt scratching their heads trying to riddle that one out.


The 5 Stages of Beersy's Grief over the Death of PalmOS:

DENIAL

ANGER

BARGAINING

DEPRESSION

ACCEPTANCE


It's time for you to "let go" of PalmOS, Beersy. You need to move on to "Acceptance" and achieve closure with PalmOS. Don't worry. We're here for you, Buddy.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: I don't like this.
PenguinPowered @ 2/14/2006 1:26:57 AM # Q
can you come up with a few ways to run PalmOS apps within the framework of NetFront-as-platform?

Skippy, I'm glad you take Neils Bohr's admonishment (Never express yourself more clearly than you think) to heart, but I'd rather express myself more clearly than you seem capable of, if you don't mind.

See my comments elsewhere about what "platform" means in this context. Given that explanation, I can think of three: 1) the current public plan of record: Cobalt on top of Linux with NetFront running along side it; 2) Ressurecting Tapwave's PalmOS on Linux or 3) giving up on Cobalt APIs and running PACE

How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.

How long did it take Tapwave?



May You Live in Interesting Times

Divining the future
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/14/2006 2:28:21 AM # Q
>>>can you come up with a few ways to run PalmOS apps within the framework of NetFront-as-platform?

Skippy, I'm glad you take Neils Bohr's admonishment (Never express yourself more clearly than you think) to heart, but I'd rather express myself more clearly than you seem capable of, if you don't mind.

Penicillin may save you yet, Marty. Tabes dorsalis must be a biotch to live with...

See my comments elsewhere about what "platform" means in this context. Given that explanation, I can think of three: 1) the current public plan of record: Cobalt on top of Linux with NetFront running along side it; 2) Ressurecting Tapwave's PalmOS on Linux or 3) giving up on Cobalt APIs and running PACE

1) Would have taken too long. And you KNOW Access has dumped Cobalt, Marty.
2) The porting of Linux to the Zodiac is not quite the same as running PalmOS on a Linux kernel, Marty...
3) As you know all too well, this is a done deal. Cobalt and its lepromatous APIs are DEAD.

>>>How long would it take to code a PalmOS emulator? I would expect it could be done in less than a year.

How long did it take Tapwave?

I think Flores said it took less than 8 months to bring Linux onto the Zodiac. Of course, Tapwave's codemonkeys were an order of magnitude more skilled than the (barely) warm bodies PalmSource had on its payroll... PalmSource should have hired every single Tapwave engineer and dumped some of the Sunnyvale flotsam when they had the chance.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

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