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Comments on: Pictures of the Palm OS Emulator on ALP

Access Linux Platform Palm OS Emulator DemoPDAExpertos caught a glimpse of a preview version of the ACCESS Linux Platform at 3GSM. They have published an article on ALP and got a picture of the ALP Palm OS emulator running on a smartphone. The phone is a Haier N60 phone that is sold in China and normally uses a version of Linux. What is not shown in the photos is the new MAX user interface, which is the main UI and features a new look and features.
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Not just China

PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 4:25:43 PM # Q
Haier sells the N60 in the US and Europe as well.

At least in theory.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Not just China
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 4:29:09 PM # Q
Where/how can you "legitimately" buy one of these? Or must you go to some shady rogue cellular dealer in Chinatown, begging in Engrish for an N60 and hope it'll work when you stick your T-Mobile/Cingular SIM card in it?

Where is Mike Cane to test a new device for us when you need him??

Ryan;

Do you have any pics yet of the MAX user interface? What is it an acronym for--Media Adaptable eXecution or something similarly wacky? Any word if there will be an option to revert back to the "classic" POS launcher?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Not just China
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 4:38:41 PM # Q
It's not on Amazon so I'd say "sells in the US and Europe" is less than a theory, more like a hypothesis.

Note, we probably should be ignoring the device the demo was performed on, as the fact of the demo doesn't mean this phone will ever be released with ALP. It's just something they happened to have in a drawer when Lefty said "quick, we gotta flash this onto something and send it to Barcelona!"

Still, it's the kind of device I'd like to see ALP on. Small. Clamshell. Even appears to have landscape mode for when you fold it over into a tablet and want to browse or read documents.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Not just China
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 4:44:24 PM # Q
I did say in theory. ;)

Although listed on HaierAmerica's web site, I have not been able to find anyone outside of China selling the phone.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Not just China
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 4:46:53 PM # Q
HaierAmerica???

Is that the station that liberal socialist scumbag Al FrankenGarnet is on??? It gets shiit ratings and it's subsidized by a few wealthy foreign socialists like that scumbag George Soros???

RE: Not just China
Admin @ 2/16/2006 4:49:35 PM # Q
PalmSource apparently gave a demo preview of ALP during a press conference in Barcelona. They showed regular Palm OS apps running on the emulator (which is what these pics show), a native GTK application and a MAX app. It is amazing no one has really covered this or got a picture of MAX in action. I have requested and am waiting for official screenshots.

-Ryan

RE: Not just China
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 4:49:58 PM # Q
Doesn't Lefty have certain....magick capabilities that would permit him just to snap his fingers (replete with black-painted daggeresque nails) and instantly flash the ALP demo onto any device he chooses? ;-)


A small clamshell landscape-capable smartphone is PRECISELY what the Treo needs to evolve into. Heck, go by the Samsung i550 Samsung that TVoR raves about as a starter concept. Anything's better than the current Treo-a SSS Fisher Price hunk of plastic with its antenna sticking out like an ungainly wart.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Not just China
Foo Fighter @ 2/16/2006 4:53:45 PM # Q
Stunning. NOBODY snagged a shot of MAX in action?

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Not just China
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 4:55:03 PM # Q
Is Al Franken really a liberal socialist? I thought he was a pinko liberal socialist. But I could be wrong.

Anyway, it's a great question you asked there and I'm glad we've all had a chance to ponder it.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Not just China
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 4:58:08 PM # Q

PSRC has no credibility left. history shows that they'll fake whatever they have to to fool shareholders, partners, and customers.



RE: Not just China
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 4:59:19 PM # Q
PalmSource apparently gave a demo preview of ALP during a press conference in Barcelona.

You're pretty gullible, Ryan. PIC members know that Barcelona is just a fraud perpetrated against the American people by liberals like Al Franken. We won't believe until we see Ann Coulter lifting her skirt on camera and saying "HaierAmerica???"

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Not just China
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 5:07:09 PM # Q
I just wanted to remark that today's been notable for 3 things:

1. The funniest "brawling" & commentary in ages on PIC

2. The most good-natured "brawling" in recent memory on PIC

3. The most news-worthy day (assuming it's not a hoax) in ages...or at least since the 700p leak (assuming it's not a hoax).



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Not just China
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 5:12:19 PM # Q
If all that's what you believe, Gekko, then I rest my case!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Not just China
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 5:15:06 PM # Q
Don't mind the leapin' liz', it hasn't even figured out that the N60 runs Linux, so the whole Frankengarnet makes no sense.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Not just China
AdamaDBrown @ 2/16/2006 6:58:42 PM # Q
subsidized by a few wealthy foreign

Yeah, wealthy foreigners should keep out of American media. Down with Rupert Mudoch! Down with Fox News! Right Gekko?

Gekko?

Hello? Is this thing on?

(Evil grin)

RE: Not just China
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 7:06:42 PM # Q
Hello? Is this thing on?

Too funny!

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope Gekko never goes away. I've never met anyone who was so fun to make fun of. Priceless!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Not just China
mikecane @ 2/16/2006 11:03:17 PM # Q
>>>Where is Mike Cane to test a new device for us when you need him??

Being traumatized by using the Nokia 770.

Cobaltstein won't get out of Japan. Sayonara, PalmOS.

And for those of you who thought Linux was the handheld savior, I've been using it. Wait til you experience the hell of "dependencies."

The 770 makes PPC look good!

Stockpile those Ts, T2s, and T3s while you can.

Or just dump this BS, get a $100 Z for PIMs and get one of the upcoming Windows UMPCs for *real work.*

Personally, I still wonder WTF happened to that one Cobalt phone someone snagged at the last DevCon.

-- via Nokia 770, which redefines hell.

The prodigal son returns...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/16/2006 11:18:44 PM # Q
>>>Where is Mike Cane to test a new device for us when you need him??

Being traumatized by using the Nokia 770.

It's not THAT bad, Cane. Add a better battery, decent handwriting recognition, Skype and a little faster processor and it will be OK. Not bad for a first effort and a beta OS. Add real telephony and suddenly Palms no longer make much sense unless prices plummet.

Cobaltstein won't get out of Japan. Sayonara, PalmOS.

Newsflash: Almost NOTHING (yes, NOTHING!) from Cobalt will be recycled into NetFrontLinux. That's not A Bad Thing...

And for those of you who thought Linux was the handheld savior, I've been using it. Wait til you experience the hell of "dependencies."

Give it time.

The 770 makes PPC look good!

Use a Loox 720 with a few apps to customize it (like WisBar) and load it with the top 20 PPC/Windows Mobile apps. Windows Mobile can easily be made into an acceptable OS for 95% of users.

Stockpile those Ts, T2s, and T3s while you can.

Why load up on a PDA that will die od Digitizer Drift Disease (Dł) in a matter of months? You should have bought that CLIE TH55 when I told you to. Still, I might sell you one of the European (Bluetooth, Wi-Fi) TH55 from my bunker... for a price.

Or just dump this BS, get a $100 Z for PIMs and get one of the upcoming Windows UMPCs for *real work.*

In the end, I think small smartphones (like Pat Horne's Treo800g) and Micro laptops (< 1 pound) running Real Windows will finally make traditional PDAs extinct. Which is a shame because for some, a traditional PDA is actually a better choice than a smartphone or a laptop

http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treo800big.jpg


Personally, I still wonder WTF happened to that one Cobalt phone someone snagged at the last DevCon.

The Oswin phones were all flushed down the toilet. You'll find them in the same sewage plant where BubbaSteve's bloated carcass is floating.

Nice to see you made your way out of your dumpster and back to civilization, Caney.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Not just China
AdamaDBrown @ 2/17/2006 4:38:55 AM # Q
And for those of you who thought Linux was the handheld savior, I've been using it. Wait til you experience the hell of "dependencies."

Heh. I have vivid memories of my attempts to use desktop Linux... suffice to say, it wanted me to type three quarters of a page of specifically formatted text into a command line, whose only editing function was the backspace key, so as to compile the driver module for my generic Linksys network card. I tried doing that, only to find out that 1) the system didn't have the compiler where it was supposed to be 2) I couldn't download a compiler because I had no network connection 3) even when I found the compiler, the commands did not compile the driver so much as they caused the compiler to self destruct.

I think that Linux could be a good OS, but they've got to put a lot more effort into insulating the user from it. It was designed by hypergeeks to appeal to other hypergeeks, and so is unneccessarily complex. You should never have to even utter to word "compile" when using a computer unless you're a programmer. I hear that Sharp did a lot better with their Linux handhelds.

Or just dump this BS, get a $100 Z for PIMs and get one of the upcoming Windows UMPCs for *real work.*

Those UMPCs are still pretty marginal. I've had two, the Vaio U50, and right now the OQO. The results are not good. The processor is slow, the screen resolution is funky, and the engineering is pretty bad. They should have designed a clamshell device, kind of like the Zaurus. That would have helped with the nearly unusable keyboard, but there would remain other problems. Win XP doesn't really lend itself to mobility, either in requirements or in interface. Plus there's the fact that the thing costs $2500. For that money, you could buy yourself five TXes and five Axim X51vs, then rotate them.

Speaking of Windows XP, Mike, did you ever upgrade from your antique desktop?

Magick Man: Domo
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 6:15:36 AM # Q
Doesn't Lefty have certain....magick capabilities that would permit him just to snap his fingers (replete with black-painted daggeresque nails) and instantly flash the ALP demo onto any device he chooses? ;-)


Bwahahahaha!

I'm not looking at you, I'm looking through you!

- Mr. Crowley

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Where's the beef?

Foo Fighter @ 2/16/2006 4:24:29 PM # Q
Do we really know for sure whether these images are authentic or not? In either case there is no real story here, as far as I can see. We knew that ALP can handle legacy 68k and current PalmOS apps Ala PACE, so it's not like anyone who sees these screenshots will need smelling salts to revive themselves. I'm far more interested in meeting the man behind the curtain; MAX. Engadget says the new UI will look nothing like our old PalmOS of yore.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Where's the beef?
hkklife @ 2/16/2006 4:38:19 PM # Q
Foo;

See my comments under the "Anyone read Spanish" thread from earlier today. I also smell a rat (nothing against Ryan, David, Marty etc) and am still rather suspicious. I want to see more shows before I make a call! It does just seem like this show'n tell session kinda appeared out of nowhere and has sorta flown under the radar of the mobile news sites thus far.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Where's the beef?
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 4:40:42 PM # Q

I bet it's just like Nagel's "Cobalt" Demo - it's a screen shot .gif shown in the FrankenGarnet "Media" app. I don't trust these scumbags anymore. they fooled Beersie, but they ain't fooling me.

Satkeholders beware!

RE: Where's the beef?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 4:46:09 PM # Q
Satkeholders beware!

Indeed. Gekko's gonna grab your Satke while you're not looking.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Where's the beef?
Gekko @ 2/16/2006 4:48:39 PM # Q

Beersie - seize on a typo if that's all you got.

RE: Where's the beef?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 4:50:58 PM # Q
In your case, yes, it's all I got.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Where's the beef?
javispedro @ 2/16/2006 5:43:04 PM # Q
PalmSource's Garnet hasn't got a Media app.

RE: Where's the beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 5:56:52 PM # Q
Doesn't matter. The n60 doesn't run garnet anyway, it runs mLinux.

May You Live in Interesting Times
Reply to this comment

That's not the Palm OS Emulator

cervezas @ 2/16/2006 5:06:13 PM # Q
FYI, it's called the Palm Application Compatibility Environment: PACE. The Palm OS Emulator is a desktop application that emulates Palm OS 4 and earlier.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: That's not the Palm OS Emulator
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 5:13:58 PM # Q
Are you sure they didn't port POSE to linux and run it as the demo?

(giggle)


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: That's not the Palm OS Emulator
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 5:14:43 PM # Q
Are you sure they didn't port POSE to linux and run it as the demo?

Port it? IIRC, it ran on Linux before it ever was ported to Windows. Back then it was called Copilot.

You may be onto something!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

That's it?

AdamaDBrown @ 2/16/2006 5:35:01 PM # Q
Admittedly, it looks moderately Palmish, but when are we gonna get some more images? I'm worried that they didn't modify the menus (which actually could have use a new look) but are going to mess with the main interface (which does not).

RE: That's it?
AdamaDBrown @ 2/16/2006 5:38:18 PM # Q
And say... if the UI is supposed to be Cobalt derived, where's all that kick-ass visual styling we saw in the Cobalt simulator and screenshots? Also, is it just me, or does it kind of look like the lines for the notepad keep going after the Done and Details buttons?

RE: That's it?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 5:44:03 PM # Q
The UI isn't Cobalt-derived anymore. Not in PACE and not even in MAX. And until we see what a native MAX API application looks like it's pretty hard to judge what it will look like. It's gonna be different because it's going to be influenced by the Rome project, which hasn't yet seen the light of day.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: That's it?
AdamaDBrown @ 2/16/2006 6:00:15 PM # Q
The UI isn't Cobalt-derived anymore.

Well, that sucks. Say what you will about Cobalt, but it looked cool in the simulator.

RE: That's it?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 6:02:56 PM # Q
Classic PIC moment! We jeer and harangue PalmSource for the stupidity, greed, and ineptitude we're so certain were responsible for the failure of Palm OS Cobalt, and then the day after they announce that Cobalt it effectively dead we start to jeer and harangue them for abandoning it.

I sometimes wonder if the biggest wart on the Palm OS isn't its own power user community.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: That's it?
AdamaDBrown @ 2/16/2006 6:45:58 PM # Q
I sometimes wonder if the biggest wart on the Palm OS isn't its own power user community.

Yeah, 'cause the arguments on PIC caused Palm marketshare to drop from 95% to 40%. Do we have an icon for uncontrollable eye-rolling?

Seriously, while power users can be fickle, the majority would be quite pleased if we just got what we've been promised for years--a multitasking OS with a nice interface and the new features that were advertised. Or do you think that the problems of the former PalmSource are all imaginary, the invention of a few fickle users (or as some here would have it, paid propagandists)?

RE: That's it?
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 6:59:11 PM # Q
I'm not going to argue with you about this, Adama, and I wasn't really seriously blaming power users for the fact that Palm OS isn't growing as fast as it once did. Palm and PalmSource have certainly made their mistakes and suffered for them. I just find it funny that no one is a more vocal detractor for these companies than the people who are most addicted to their products. Talk about a love-hate relationship!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: That's it?
mikecane @ 2/16/2006 11:18:54 PM # Q
Palm killed itself through stupidity, greed, and arrogance.

Ignoring power users is death.

Watch the 770 sink into a similar oblivion.

Nokia is the new Palm.

RE: That's it?
PenguinPowered @ 2/16/2006 11:44:04 PM # Q
Yeah. Right. Nokia does 1 entry in a new field and you don't like it, so now they're the "new Palm."

I doubt it.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Mike Cane - still in poor form, as usual
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 12:56:45 AM # Q
Palm killed itself through stupidity, greed, and arrogance.

True. And a little Apple-style inbreeding helped as well.

Ignoring power users is death.

False. Power users are a financially insignificant market. But since power users tend to want more powerful devices with more features, companies that fail to appeal to power users typically lack innovative products. As Apple shows clearly with its trailing edge iPods, there are ways to be successful without selling innovative products that appeal to power users.

Watch the 770 sink into a similar oblivion.

False. (The Nokia 770 is a beta test device that Nokia just happens to be selling to the beta testers, much like Sony did with its CLIEs.)

Nokia is the new Palm.

False. Nokia is Nokia. While Nokia has made some colossal mistakes in the past (NGage, anyone?), they are not run by a Cabal of "clever" idiots like Palm is. Nokia has the money, size, clout, perseverence and intelligence to succeed where Palm has failed.

************************************************************************

Caney's batting .250 (1 for 4) in his return to the lineup.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: That's it?
AdamaDBrown @ 2/17/2006 5:02:27 AM # Q
False. Power users are a financially insignificant market. But since power users tend to want more powerful devices with more features, companies that fail to appeal to power users typically lack innovative products. As Apple shows clearly with its trailing edge iPods, there are ways to be successful without selling innovative products that appeal to power users.

There's some truth to this, but there's also another perspective. Remember, the iPod wasn't something that people demanded by acclaim--it was a product that helped build a market. It was, in a sense, the innovative product of its time, combining digital music with massive, portable storage, and it was the first to do it well. It was a power user sort of product, even if it didn't match feature for feature some of its competitors--it provided something that people didn't know they wanted until it was presented to them.

Nokia has the money, size, clout, perseverence and intelligence to succeed where Palm has failed.

Now I've got lines from Dune stuck in my head.

"They tried and failed?"

"No. They tried and died."

RE: That's it?
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 11:33:19 AM # Q
AdamaDBrown wrote:
Remember, the iPod wasn't something that people demanded by acclaim--it was a product that helped build a market. It was, in a sense, the innovative product of its time, combining digital music with massive, portable storage, and it was the first to do it well.

Partly right. What was innovative, and what turned the iPod from a blip into a craze was the integration with the iTunes service. Once iTunes was released on Windows, kaboom! Power users have nothing to do with this success.

Now everyone is trying to imitate Apple's innovation--not with the devices, which are nothing terribly special--but with the music service. Amazon announced they'll be joining the fray this week.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: That's it?
Hal2000 @ 2/17/2006 6:53:52 PM # Q
Welcome back Mike.

Zodiac2/T616/WiFi/2+2 Gigs/In Business Use/Is that an SD card sticking out of your pocket or...
Zodiac 2 as business machine
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 7:07:31 PM # Q
Hal2000,

Notice from your sig that you have a Zod2 you use for "Business Use." Now that you can pick these up cheap I sometimes consider giving one a go as a replacement for my T3, despite the fact that I'm not particularly interested in gaming. If it would pair with my Nokia 6620 and let me do BT DUN I'd probably jump on it. Love to hear your thoughts.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: That's it?
hkklife @ 2/17/2006 9:46:27 PM # Q
Beersie;

I can confirm with 100% firsthand experience that the Zod 2 has a "good" (ie they work) BT stack ala T5 and earlier Palms. It is NOT crippled BT like the LifeDrive & TX. That means it works with CDMA handsets for BT DUN. That's not an issue for you since the 6620 is a GSM phone but it's a good sign for those who want to mate their Zod with a CDMA phone.

Also, the Zod is nearly useless for gaming (IMO) unless you want to run the occasional emulator ROM. I prefer it much more as what it SHOULD'VE been marketed as originally---a large-screened portable media device.

Just be sure not to let the battery drain down completely. The Zod 2 in particular does NOT like being left in a drawer for more than a few days at a time ;-)

If you're looking for an outright T3 replacement I'd recommend the TX or TVoR's infamous TH-55 if you are a Clie kind of guy. If you are looking for something that's easier on the eyes & has 2 SD slots, then by all means go with the Zod. I personally went with T5/TX route after my T3 gave up the ghost b/c I found the bulk of the Zod rather distressing along with its awkward stylus and utter lack of decent accessories.

If you can, see if some of the "heavy duty" demo units Tapland is talking about are still available.

My local CUSA still has a handful of Zod cases & games priced at about 1/2 off original retail.

The Tapwave web browser is HORRIBLE--it makes Blazer look like the latest Firefox build or IE7 in comparison. The PalmSource/Tapwave freebie e-mail client makes VersaMail look like Outlook in comparison. Plan on having to replace both of those standard-issue items ASAP if you are doing anything DUN related on the Zod.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Reply to this comment

SQLite

Nycran @ 2/16/2006 7:36:58 PM # Q
Is it just me or does that Spanish page make reference to SQLite as being a part of the new infrastructure? That would be an awesome addition for Palm developers. Oh glorious day! A relational SQL database!

RE: SQLite
cervezas @ 2/16/2006 7:49:00 PM # Q
It's true. Data persistance under the MAX framework will be via SQLite *and* a bona fide file system. Bye bye DataManager.

http://www.pikesoft.com/blog/index.php?itemid=48


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

Miss the hoaxes

Lungboy @ 2/17/2006 12:02:14 PM # Q
I miss the time when there would be debate from every person who had Photoshop™ loaded up on their computer looking for an off colored pixel somewhere in the image declaring every picture a hoax.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eagles may soar but at least weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.
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