Comments on: Engadget Editorial: Palm, It's Time for an Intervention

I'm brutally honest when it comes to pointing fingers at Palm, thank you very much.

But I really got the feeling that the Engadget piece was written by someone who was more or less a former Palm OS user who had been kinda/sorta casually following the scene in the past year or so. Besides, Ryan prefers for PIC contributors to present relatively unbiased opinions in the text of news items and leave the personal opinions of the author to the comments area.

Some of the most valid complaints not touched upon by Engadget (in MY opinion as an 11-year user of the platform) are the complete & utter abandomment of the PDA line when Palm had the market nearly to itself (and nearly perfected), the complete and utter abandonment of Graffiti 1, the horrific saga of the bundled 700p/w/wx ROM updaters, various other quality control issues over the years (T3 SD card frying, LifeDrive's memory architecture, Treo 650's NVFS woes etc ), no support for any recent non-XP OS from M$ until last month's Palm Desktop beta release, etc.

For Palm to maintain a relatively static, unimpressive hardware line with conservative, incremental technical upgrades is one thing (look how well that strategy served IBM's Thinkpad division for years or Nokia's handset division until just a few years ago). But for that same static lineup to be riddled with poor quality control, numerous bugs, device to device hardware inconsistencies, and no clear-cut policy in place for issuing bugfixes and EOLing hardware makes even loyal Palm OS fans feel like orphans. If a company is going to proceed at a glacial pace with their hardware releases, then they MUST be absolutely rock-solid, backed by superb support policies (tiny Matrox Graphics, for instance), and not bury their head in the sand when it comes to positing their devices within the marketplace.

I think Engadget's article, while good, could have been better had it been a bit less presumptuous and instead really taken a detatched, honest view at Palm's failure to not just deliver new product but support its EXISTING products and its (dwindling) loyal fanbase.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Freak,

You're not a "Palm Apologist", you're just a hack.

>The article was excellent? Well... there are plenty of good criticisms to be leveled
>at Palm. But this editorial doesn't make many.

I think the article makes plenty of valid criticisms.

>What do they suggest Palm take away in order to give us the thinness? The removable
>battery? (iPhone) The touchscreen? (Motorola Q).

Why should they suggest anything - they're making note that Palm's competition is currently capable of making thinner more functional smartphones than Palm - the one time industry leader.

Palm squandered years of lead time and R&D budgets by continually pushing uninspiring and stagnant hardware releases. Years of bad decisions have caught up with them.

>Yes, and Windows Mobile 6 wasn't available when the 750 was launched.

Correct - I think the idea in the article is that with Windows Mobile 6 out, how much longer is it going to take for Palm to get revised treo out that supports Windows Mobile 6?

It can't take that long, can it?

>Dunno about them, but I think the Treo 750 looks and feels mint. Bit too fat, but
>otherwise it's nice. Beauty is in the eye of beholder. Heck, put the Centro in
>something other than that icky white - black, maybe - and it'd look tops.

You haven't seen an iphone yet, have you? The Treo 750 looks serviceable and hefty, but the iphone looks solid and sexy and thin.

>I disagree completely. If you bundle an 8GB/4GB SDHC card in the box and put a slot
>somewhere hidden - like under the battery - then you still have all the benefits of
>expandable storage and to the common user it's exactly the same as having it
>built-in. Gigs of built-in memory would be nice, but it's hardly necessary.

If it's built-in then s/w developers can take advantage of the extra storage. Build it in but still have an open sd slot for expandability - one up apple that way.

>Yes, put the kaibosh on the first new smartphone form factor they've come up with in
>years! Puh-lease No thank you. I'm satisfied with it now that we know it's not going
>to be a "Treo" - this means that those like me who find the Treo to be the best
>smartphone compromise available will still be happy. The Centro is the small PalmOS
>smartphone that people have been clamoring for. It's just a shame it's such a fugly
>colour...

You're happy with the Centro as long as you don't have to use it - that sounds about right.

I would think you'd be disappointed with the centro because it and the foleo are taking resources away from Palm making more substantial improving to their product line (I'll retract this comment if some of the work to reduce the size of the centro makes its way into future palm devices).

>Yes - we should interact with mobile phones by not having inconveniences like
>hang-up buttons or cut-and-paste. Get serious! Know what makes the iPhone so pretty?
>Transitions. One app fades to the next, making it all look seamless. Add that and
>smooth font support and they'll be on the same level. News flash: Apple's designs
>are not perfect. Very ****ing far from it, actually.

How would you know, you've not used one. This is why I think you're a hack - write about what you know and you'll be in safe territory. I'll give you a few clues - some things that make the iphone's OS better:

1. Stability
2. Multitasking performance
3. Better use of screen real estate
4. Better web browser

At no point do I mention transitions. Lack of cut and paste is a shortcoming - however I'd rather lack cut and paste than lack a stable OS. After using the iphone, I have more faith in Apple's ability to add "cut and paste" than I do with Palm releasing a state of the art Palm OS.

Being burned by Palm for a few years will do that to you.

>If Palm have to divert resources from making Windows compatibility bulletproof, or
>developing their new phone OS, then I'd rather they just told Mac users to take a
>flying leap.

Exactly - Palm doesn't have the resources.

>Foleo is not their core product. It a new business line. And how does he know it's
>never going to be better than alright? I bet people said the same thing about the
>Pilot. (I wouldn't know; I was only just out of primary school at the time...) Guess
>what: Foleo has a lot of very cool things going for it, the least of which is a
>brand-new Linux OS that can smoothly on very meager hardware.

Still, if Palm needed a test-bed for a new Linux-based OS - there are many more viable alternatives than the Foleo. Palm should be focused on improving their core business before jumping head first into "a new line of business" - this "Ralph Kramden" business model they're pursuing could kill them.

>Now I'm off to work. Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes before someone
>labels me a "Palm Apologist"?

Not I - however I do disagree with some of your points.

freak - the original article you were quoting from talked about the OS - you went on a rant regarding transitions - perhaps if were more eloquent in your language these "misinterpretations" wouldn't happen.

Btw, you do realize that the transitions aren't magic - they're functionality built into the os.

My comments on the os are perfectly valid - just because you ignore them doesnt make them invalid.

cry all you want freak - until you've actually used an iPhone your critique of it is worthless. If palm were smart they would be taking cues from the iPhone. Its selling like hotcakes and is a high margin product people want. Whereas the treo...say how many treos were sold last quarter?

Engadget, especially Peter Rojas, was a HUGE Treo fan.

I've been reading Engadget since they started, and once upon a time they fawned over the Treos like people do iPhones now, and they (at least Peter) used a Treo as his personal phone.

They (at Engadget) have got their finger on the consumer's pulse here, and they nailed it with this article.

Handspring Visor, Palm V, Treo 180, Treo 90, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p
MTT

"JayC3 - I'm happy for Engadget to criticise. It's an editorial after all. But some of their points are just strange, and most of them seem to be coming from the position "Treos should be more like the iPhone". Which rankles me. A Treo is currently a far more useful device than the iPhone. I don't want to see Palm turning their versatile smartphones into expensive toys - do you?"

==> Treos are already expensive. Try buying it without carrier subsidies or outside the US. You'll be surprised (but maybe not) at how much they cost. So I don't see any reason why Palm shouldn't copy some of the feauture of the iPhone.

I actually don't believe it's "the plight of most Palm users". I believe it's the plight of the Internet gadget geek, whom, while an important driver of online opinion, is not the majority of Palm's customers. Their opinions should be taken as such. I'm sick to death of all the griping about Palm. If they were half as bad as people claim they are they would have gone belly-up years ago. They haven't. Who's wrong: Palm or the nattering naybobs of negativity on the Internet?

==> Did you read all the comments from the engadget post (I'm only at page 2)? Most of them are from former or current Palm/Treo users(or that's what they say they are, we'll never know), which may also be the internet gadget geek that you mention.

==> Yes, they haven't gone belly-up yet, but how about Netscape? Did they belly-up yet? They were the top dog in the browser wars before and look at where they are now. I hate to see Palm suffer the same fate as Netscape (they're like a walking zombie). In this day and age, Palm needs to be a leader in innovation as they were 10 years ago. Now, they seem to be just a shadow of their former self. However, I do hope that they have an ace up their sleeve(I hope its not gandolf or the foleo) to surprise the competition in 2008.

Freak,

As usual, you twist an analogy to reflect your version of reality:

>>Its selling like hotcakes and is a high margin product people want. Whereas the treo...say how many treos
>>were sold last quarter?

>Who cares? McDonald's has sold about 7 trillon Big Macs as I type this post, but no one's gonna call it fine
>cuisine.

You don't pay top dollar at McDonalds (just in case McDonalds *is* fine cuisine in Australia - it's not in the US).

Here's a better analogy:

Restaurant Apple:

You go into this five star restaurant that has gotten increasingly popular - lines are around the block!

The atmosphere is great, the waiter is extremely helpful, the wine is top quality and your filet mignon is spectacular. You have an excellent time and you believe it's well worth your money, but some friends say the place is too costly.

Restaurant Palm:

This restaurant used to be fantastic. It's under new management, but has changed hands and names several times in the past. They've had financial problems; currently the place is understaffed because there have been more layoffs recently.

In order to quell increasingly bad word of mouth, the prices have become more affordable - they're trying to attract a "bigger demographic"

As you sit down, you notice that your silverware is dirty and ask for it to be replaced. You attribute this to the fact that the staff is overworked. This is "Restaurant Palm" - they were a contender in their day - you give them a chance.

You order a caesar salad; the salad is dry (it's been sitting out all day). As you go to eat it, you find a dead cockroach in your salad. Again, this is "Restaurant Palm" - they were a contender in their day - you give them another chance and decide to stay and eat. Why let one bug spoil your meal?

You order the filet mignon - a signature dish Restaurant Palm was known for.

Your mouth waters as the dish arrives...as you look closely, you see that your filet mignon is in fact NOT filet mignon...it's actually greasy overcooked ground up liver shaped to look like a filet mignon(!!!)

You finally go and complain to the management - they explain that these issues are the result of their "cost cutting measures".

You figure at least the bill won't be that expensive - since the experience wasn't all that and they did recently lower their prices.

Unfortunately the bill isn't much lower than "Restaurant Apple"

"Restaurant Palm" has to show the new management and new investors they have that they're capable of making a profit.

Aside from a case of food poisoning you have the same experience as your friends. None of you have anything good to say about "Restaurant Palm" - having been burned by them repeatedly.

> ...It's [the iPhone] selling like hotcakes...

Ya think it's selling well now, wait til you see the results when those three European carriers start selling it - like soon, too.

AAPL is gonna make tremendous bucks from this one - bet on it.

^^ Holy shit. It's like talking to a ****ing brick wall.

Maybe on your planet, jca, people make informed choices about everything they buy. Humans, however... well, 90% of them are morons and will buy, eat, watch, and listen to whatever swill is pushed in front of them. With Apple's genius marketing and the media taking every chance they can to pimp the iPhone, it's success was pre-ordained, even before it was announced. Just like Coke, McDonald's and Wal-Mart; people will go there just for the brand - never mind the fact that the service is crap or the product sub-par. See news reports that kids will eat more carrots if they come in a McDonald's wrapper: http://tinyurl.com/2jxhxx

Similarly, people will buy any piece of crap electronics - provided it comes with a half-eaten Apple on it.

I do not deny the iPhone is successful, nor that it will continue to be successful.

However, I can see plain as day that it's severely lacking as a smartphone, as can anyone who has an IQ in the positive and even the smallest sliver of critical thinking skills. Those who can't are either:

A) Apple fanboys
B) Morons (see option A)

Which are you, sweetie? XX OO

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

I am glad the iPhone owners are happy with their purchase. I purchased a Treo and I am happy with my purchase.

I am unaware of any electronic device that satisfies the needs of every potential customer. When it comes to electronics one size does not fit all. Heck, they even have a wide variety of electric can openers because not every is going to like open their cans the same way or with the same design, etc.

As to my personal opinion, the iPhone is nice but in its current incarnation can not fill my needs. No smartphone on the market is perfect and the iPhone (no matter what anyone says) is not perfect. First, a cell phone without a replaceable battery is a non-starter for me. The only reason I use a smartphone is because I can install apps on it, if not, I would still be using a 'dumb' phone and a PDA.

I still say that if Palm released tomorrow an thin phone with no keyboard, no replaceable battery, no cut and paste, built-in storage that was completely inaccessible to the user except to store music files and that had a closed system within which apps crashed nevertheless there would be an uproar that would cause a rift in the time/space continuum.

As to the Engadget editorial, God save us from fanboy editorializing as if they were the be all and end all of the customer base. Further, I think that company's go out of business all the time. If Palm can no longer produce a product that satisfies consumer needs then they will go the way of the dodo because we will all stop buying their stuff. They had a nice run and que sera.

I note that, as per the SeekingAlpha site, Palm currently has 23% of the smartphone market and is in the number 2 position behind RIM. This is certainly nothing to sneeze at. They are far ahead of the number 3. This amount of market share would suggest their products do not completely suck. It seems to me that whether Palm loses more ground depends on the competing products (i.e. Apple, RIM, Motorola, etc.) and how well they execute and integrate the long overdue next generation OS.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

OK Freak, here you go:

>With Apple's genius marketing and the media taking every chance they can to pimp the
>iPhone, it's success was pre-ordained, even before it was announced. Just like Coke,
>McDonald's and Wal-Mart; people will go there just for the brand - never mind the fact
>that the service is crap or the product sub-par.

>Similarly, people will buy any piece of crap electronics - provided it comes with a
>half-eaten Apple on it.

I disagree with you here freak - look at the apple tv - certainly not selling well at all. Apple - like any other company - can't release crap and expect it to sell well.

Palm has released nothing but crap for years - they need to hit the next few out of the park - or there won't be a palm left to talk about.

>I do not deny the iPhone is successful, nor that it will continue to be successful.

It's success is more than marketing - technically it does some things much better than the treo - and it is lacking some refinements that will come about in time.

In two months, apple has released two os patches (bug fixes) for the iphone. Has palm been anywhere near as responsive?

NO. Timely OS updates are what is called being "service oriented" - remember that when you're cleaning toilets at another fine eating establishment.

>However, I can see plain as day that it's severely lacking as a smartphone, as can
>anyone who has an IQ in the positive and even the smallest sliver of critical
>thinking skills.

What we are seeing is your own stubborn attitude as to what a smartphone should be. Allow me to expand your horizons. A smartphone should have:

1. A lightweight multitasking OS
2. High resolution screen display
3. High speed processor with large amount of built-in memory.
4. Advanced web browser
5. Ajax/Web 2.0 support

An iphone doesn't meet your criteria for being a smartphone, while a treo doesn't meet my criteria.

Right now, when the treo rings it's the 1990's calling.

Palm - if they have any brains - should be looking to build future treos that takes their cues from the iphone.

Now because you're very one-dimensional, let me explain this - otherwise you'll go on another nonsensical rant about cut/copy/paste.

Things Palm will need to do:

1. Innovative form factor
2. Improved UI
3. Multitasking OS
4. Improved built-in applications
5. Better customer support
6. Stability
7. Better QC of hardware and software

I'd rather be considered a moron or an apple apologist to an idiot.

5. Better customer support
6. Stability
7. Better QC of hardware and software

THESE are the most crucial elements, IMO. I can live with sub-standard specs etc. but the phone needs to be ROCK-SOLID STABLE and Palm needs to address issues in a matter of days or weeks, not months, years or never.

I'd like to sit down & draw up a list of all of the Palm devices released since 2000 and what their major bugs were and whether or not they were addressed by Palm. And if so, how long did it take those updates to be released and did any of them have to be "re-issued" ala the 700p/w/wx ROM updaters?

The sad thing is that Garnet was and still is a perfectly fine "low-end" OS but the combination of piggybacking a telephony stack and Palm's endless NVFS hacking has broken it to the point where it's nearly beyond repair. It's bad when the Z22 a colleague uses is absolutely flawless & never resets and makes 700p look like a hideously unreliable paperweight. I'm actually getting LESS usage and functionality out of my 700p now with the "Error 3000" network bug than I did before when it lagged like crazy and has useless BT!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

So I'm curious about two things:
1. How does the iPhone do with Asian language character display?
2. How does the iPhone do with Asian language character entry (can it recognize hand-written Chinese characters)?
I'm not interested in any device that can't do those. YMMV.

The iphone already supports Asian languate character display (OS X has it built in). Check out this site (its in chinese, but pictures do the talking): http://hk.phonedaily.com/news/?news_id=5121

As for the Asian language character entry, I believe they are working on this one and that is why they will release it here by 2008 (maybe mid-2008). I don't think it will much of an issue because the current smartphones (from HTC,Palm,O2) already supports Asian language character entry. ^^

^^ You're right. Love the stability of the closed OS! Love the power of the non-removable battery! Love the simplicity of not having to deal with tactile feedback! We hail thee, Apple, for thou art perfection! (bows)

shhhhh...dont confront freak with reality - his fragile mind might just -snap-

freak - how long does your treo last on a full charge - while browsing the web and continuously listening to music?

Treo power consumption and power mgmt. s-u-c-k

That's why you need the ability to swap/replace batteries!

The iPhone does an incredible job with power mgmt. The days of a treo or tungsten or m500 with the screen at 40% brightness to eek out longer battery life are long gone.

I hope palm puts a tenth of the engineering effort into the next gen. Treo that apple put into the iPhone.

>>>shhhhh...dont confront freak with reality - his fragile mind might just -snap-

You're trying to pull a fast one here and I won't stand for it, dammit.

Prove to everyone first that he actually has a mind!

Yeah, the new blackberries are completely ready to eat Palm's lunch. When I was a palm fanatic, I remember thinking the blackberries were too focused on email and their UI was far too limited to satisfy a Palm user.

But now...

GPS+WiFi, switch between cellular and wifi without dropping calls, support for up to 32gb of storage...

http://www.engadget.com/tag/8820/

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

freakout, your behaviour is becoming similar to that of a troll, you seem to make comments merely for the sake of provocation rather than for advancing argument, knowledge and understanding.

When a product is popular you say: humans, 90% of them are morons and will buy, eat, watch, and listen to whatever swill is pushed in front of them.. Windows is far more popular than Mac OS so does that by implication make people who use Windows morons?

Yet when support for the Mac OS is debated you dismiss people who've made the choice as being fanboys and morons for not going with the Windows majority.

Well, the Treos are definitely the minority smartphone in the global marketplace, the only thing they offer which sets them apart from other smartphones are the Palm OS and touchscreens.
What are you for sticking to this smartphone minority?

freakout, your behaviour is becoming similar to that of a troll, you seem to make comments merely for the sake of provocation rather than for advancing argument, knowledge and understanding.

It's called a "joke", silly. Notice the ":P" emoticon?

Well, the Treos are definitely the minority smartphone in the global marketplace, the only thing they offer which sets them apart from other smartphones are the Palm OS and touchscreens.
What are you for sticking to this smartphone minority?

A smart shopper? :P

Do you see me complaining about Apple not making a Palm OS-compatible version of iTunes? Of course not, because it would be stupid. Similarly, when Mac fans bitch about not having total compatibility, they're just being stupid. They made their bed. Now they have to lie in it. Preferably, without constantly whingeing about it.

Glad to see the support of a serious discussion about Palms future. I don't mind the jokes that freak has made though I don't really see them as all that funny, but I know that is subjective. I sometimes like to throw meaningless humor into a topic when things seem to get heated. I don't really think I am whining about a bed that has been made by Apple. Palm was originally a bunch of Apple dropouts just like danger who thought they could do it better or didn't like the apple politics and thoguht they could do it better and left and have since not really done much. I will give palm credit for having brought the idea of a PDA type device to the mainstream and have had many hours of enjoyment using mine. But I have had many more wishing that it worked beter. Froze up less. Had better tech support. Evolved at a quicker rate. Supported more internal memory. Had a better operating system. Is this a bed that Apple made or Palm. At the same time I thought that the primary user that was going to get ie understand a PDA and its usefulness for compact data managment were Apple users rememer the Newton. Anyway they are not doing that great and I think in large part it is because of their ignoring a large potential market. Mac OS fans. If you don't see it that way because your a Windows user or an Apple hater thats fine by me to hear your view. Has Palm ever had the media hype sucess that Apple did with the iPhone for one of their product releases? Seriously point out any review that says the iPhone OS is lame or doesn't work seamlessly. I don't really see it and I have looked for everything critical. Most of it doesn't reallly provide the context for the critisism and even the point that are made are sure to be worked out in future versions unlike Palm which continues to suck and have less and less market. At the very least Apple has held onto its market and figured out ways to creativly grow that market. If that makes you angry or thing of Apple or its user base as snobby or arrogant or whiners well thats just odd.

That's only because you refuse to debate the actual statements - and wordsmith instead.

You're not really a palm apologist - you're really just stubborn and stupid.

what's more predictable - palm screwing up a product release or another childish post from freakazoid??

If by 'power' you mean 'ability to register a handle, login with it and type posts' then sure, I suppose I have some.

And I find these attacks from you two of all people so rich. jca, who kicked off his comments on this article by calling me a hack, and Mike frickin' Cane, whose posts of late have consisted solely of one-sentence flamebait.

Can you smell the hypocrisy? Still, I suppose this mess is partially my fault for not looking where I was going and stepping in it in the first place. Lesson learned!

I agree with the point of view expressed by the previous poster. The reservation that I would express is that I belive thier must be people passionate about Palm and its future, however they are in to big of an organization that is bloated with obvious dead weight that renders the effect of those with passion ineffective.

I don't really care if Palm folds or stays. Time will tell. There is the saying that its good to have a competitive landscape and that a competitive landscape provides the consumer with a better end product. However I don't think Palm is that competitive in the arena of smartphones or PDA's. They have 3 PDA's and probably should be able to have just one that is effective. The foleo does not make any sense to me at all. Who the hell wants that to sustain a company or drive its future? Its the laptop that isn't a lap top that pairs with your smartphone, wow! Why the hell would more than 12 people care about that. Hasn't Palm watched alomst every other mini laptop fail to gain hold of any kind of market share? 5 smartphones that aren't all that smart and outwardly look all the same but aren't. Hey its a theme. Trim the line and focus on doing it better than everyone else. Danger obviously has a good niche platform because most of the big players have imitated their ideas so maybe merge with Danger and let them direct your product line and future?

In regards to freak I think it is worth saying that freak thinks its hilarious how people want to discuss and debate elements of PIC related topics and that sometimes those debates get heated, but freak is here wasting time mocking the people that DO care to discuss it because that in and of itself isn't a laughable waste of time is it? Whats worse is I have yet to see anyone come out in support of his comments but he keeps coming back which indicates that this individual is spending a fair amount of time on the site and reading over the information which to me seems pathetic. Its not funny really, its not itelligent really, it's barely relevant, barely so whats the point. Why is freak so bitter and upset about healthy debate? We get it you think its pointless and lame which it may be, but if that is the case your ten rungs below that level in the supidity of it all.