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Comments on: Motley Fool Article on Palm's Future

A mildly ominous article has been posted by the Motley Fool's Tim Beyers. Dated June 30, 2006, the article goes into considerable comparing and contrasting Palm's fiscal year '06 standings vs. the previous two years. Several reasons for the company's first quarter of negative cash flow since 2003 are also illustrated. Of particular interest is a statement concerning a 63% rise in Palm's inventory in Q4 2006. The article does not mention if any distinction is made between older, leftover PDA inventory or unsold Treo inventory. Recent rumors have pointed to high return rates for the 700w. Additionally, Treo 700w's sales figures have been vaguely disclosed as, at worst, disappointing or at best, slower to ramp up than expected by Palm. These factors combined with the relentless competition by other handset manufacturers could account for much of the negative news. A recent article on Forbes points to an upcoming smartphone price battle due to competition with Motorola.
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Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?

gfunkmagic @ 7/19/2006 4:53:11 PM # Q
It seeems to me that Palm hasn't done enough to make it's WM powered devices stand out enough in a marketplace overflowing with many WM smartphone/pda-phone alternatives. It also doesn't seem the fabled 'palm' brand has helped much in this regard either...

The fact is that, the 700w and rumored forthcoming Treo "lenon" or whatever do not measure up competitively in specificatons, design or otherwise with many other WM alternatives. Furthermore the much ballyhooed "Palm experience" nonsense that Palm execs blatherred about when the 700w was launched has also turned out to be nothing substantial. Simply put, in the WM ecosystem, Palm just hasn't made very interesting or competitive devices. Of course, the 700w may be viewed as just an openning volley...but Palm can't make too many mistakes and live to survive it...

IMO, Palm will never be a preeminant WM OEM. There are just too many competitors with too many better designs and price points. The quandry for Palm unfortunately is that the PalmOS frankengarnet platform is dead with the future of ALP clouded and murky. I doubt Palm will ever release a UMTS based frankengranet Treo b/c it would be a huge monumental task...and even if they did it would be a buggy piece of crap. That is the only reason why Palm had to latch onto WM now b/c otherwise they would have no 3G Treo products in the pipeline. But WM won't save Palm as disappointing sales of the 700w show...

--------------------
Gaurav

Current devices: Treo 650 + Axim X50v
Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600

Moderator, Treocentral

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
Foo Fighter @ 7/19/2006 5:14:49 PM # Q
Who would want the 700w? It's bulky, overweight, lacks WiFi, and has a small square screen. And that has nothing to do with WM, the 700p is just as bad. This entire issue is a touchstone for Palm's problem right now; it's entire revenue model is centered around a one trick pony that is losing its competitive edge and fast. The Treo is no longer a competitive product. There are simply too many better options out there, sporting more compelling features, better designs, and at lower price points; the Motorola Q and Nokia E61 being two very good examples. I have the E61 and can tell you first hand it mops the floor with both Treo 700 models: larger screen (in widescreen format no less), integrated WiFi, superb phone functionality, multitasking OS (sorry Garnet), thin/light form factor, superior keyboard, and lower price tag (I purchased mine for around $350, brand new).

So let's see how the Treo stacks up...

A. it's a brick...

B. it's heavy...

C. in a fat clunky design...

D. doesn't have WiFi...

E. the screen is puny (and square)...

F. it's a lousy phone...

G. and it's also terribly overpriced.

Worst of all this product is the glue holding Palm together. When Colligan announced that four Treo models would be released this year it was automatically assumed they would be completely different, targeted, devices ranging in prices. Turns out they were all the same one, just for different carriers. 700p and 700w for CMDA carriers, and now the yet to be announced GSM 700p and 700w for GSM networks. There's your four Treo models. This is a recipe for death.

Palm's competitors are simply innovating to fast, and Palm is too small a player in this space to keep up. If you've tracked Palm's smartphone roll outs as I have you see a patter emerge; it takes Palm a full year to roll out just ONE model, in different flavors. Just one. So as the last "new" 700 model is being introduced, Motorola will be delivering it's second Q model probably with more WM devices waiting in the queue as well. And this isn't including the seemingly endless sea of devices HTC keeps churning out (uninspiring though they may be). Palm is going to be steamrolled.

Selling off Palm is the right thing to do, the problem is it's too late. As it is now, Palm has no real value. The aren't hardware IP company. They aren't a software IP company. Hell, they barely qualify as value added reseller. So, as I posed in another thread...what is Palm? That's a question I don't think even the Palm's board or management team knows.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
freakout @ 7/19/2006 10:17:26 PM # Q
A. it's a brick...
And still narrower than the E61, which some (well, me :P ) prefer in their phone.

B. it's heavy...
It also has an excellent removable battery. Take it out and see how light it is without it - practically featherweight. I suppose the question is what's more important - a few less grams of weight, or longer battery life?

C. in a fat clunky design...
Still narrower than the E61. Nitro/Lennon is removing the antenna and (probably) slimming it down a bit. Fits perfectly in your hand. What's not to like?

D. doesn't have WiFi...
Yes, it's annoying. But the Enfora sled is available for those who really need it and since most people with Treos are going to be on some kind of data plan it's not that critical. Once the inevitable happens and wifi (or some form) is ubiquitous, then it will be a problem.

E. the screen is puny (and square)...
Oh please! Even if the E61s screen is the most gorgeous handheld screen ever devised, you can't call the Treo's screen "puny". It's bright, beautiful and is competitive with pretty much any other phone or media player on the market.
Square is a little annoying, but it gives you a taller view than widescreen. Sometimes that can be better. And it's pretty much all the form factor will allow.

F. it's a lousy phone...
I've never had any complaints. Ever. Could stand to be a bit louder, maybe. It has a superbly user-friendly call interface. The person on the other end can hear me talking. I can hear them talking. What more do you need from your phone?

G. and it's also terribly overpriced.
Indeed.

The Treo's looking dated and costs too much, but it's still a very nice device.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
richardyates @ 7/20/2006 8:12:01 AM # Q
Gotta say I agree with the comments about the E61. I've had every Treo since the 270, and right now I have a 650 and an E61. The E61 knocks the Treo out on every count. The screen is to die for. It has a removable battery which seems to be immortal - even with wifi on all the time. It does multitask well, has an excellent browser and so on.

There will soon be shedloads of software for it - it needs to be recomplied from earlier symbian versions, but right now out of the box it has a full email client, browser, RSS reader, Mp3 etc player, Video player, spreadsheet, word processor, presentation package, bluetooth printing and so on. Value wise its on a different plane

Reading what I see about the new Treo - a 1.3Mp camera - so what - Sony Ericsson have just brought out a phone with an autofocus camera of 3.2 Mp

One last thing - Palm have really cocked up in Europe where the Treo and Lifedrive can no longer be imported due to the amount of lead they contain (no I'm serious). The new Treo isn't expected until Christmas and then only on Vodafone, so anyone wanting a palm phone before then has to find an old stock 650 (and ignore the adverse publicity) or go elsewhere

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/20/2006 8:39:13 AM # Q
Latest rumor is September sometime, not Christmas sometime, for the Vodafone TREO.

In the past - and probably still, however - PALM has outright stated that seasonal effects are minimal with TREO sales - that is, Christmas doesn't make things better since folks don't tend to buy phones based off it.

Then again, maybe Europeans are different, eh?

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
infinitybeach @ 7/20/2006 8:49:26 AM # Q

B. it's heavy...
It also has an excellent removable battery. Take it out and see how light it is without it - practically featherweight. I suppose the question is what's more important - a few less grams of weight, or longer battery life?

I'm sorry but I can't quite see the logic in discussing how light the battery is? Surely it's about how heavy carrying around the whole working phone is?


D. doesn't have WiFi...
Yes, it's annoying. But the Enfora sled is available for those who really need it and since most people with Treos are going to be on some kind of data plan it's not that critical. Once the inevitable happens and wifi (or some form) is ubiquitous, then it will be a problem.


I could never really understand the benefit of wifi in a mobile either ..till I actually got one. True, most of us are on data plans but (in the uk at least) data usage is still obscenely expensive! Now, with an E61, downloading podcasts, news feeds, web pages, weather & currency updates, It's all FREE on my home net. Takes a couple of minutes before I leave the house each morning & my phone is set up for the rest of the day. It's saving me a fortune on my mobile tariff.


Inventory issues?
hkklife @ 7/20/2006 9:26:53 AM # Q
Does anyone have any idea what is accounting for that stockpile of inventory mentioned in the report?

My guess would be one of the following (in order of ascending likelihood):

A. Unsold Treo 700Ws-unlikely since it's sold by ONE carrier in ONE country and Palm & VZW worked very closely for the device's development/launch/marketing/troubleshooting.

B. Unsold LifeDrives-This is always a distinct possibility. I was in BestBuy last week and they had the TXs & LDs out of lockup and just piled in a HEAP on the bottom shelf of the computer monitors area (!). I asked the guy and he said they had "no room for specialty stuff like that" in the mobile department.

C. Unsold T|E2s-Perhaps Palm has produced its final E2 but, given the recent repackaging of the unit, has stockpiled enough units to last through next year sometime. This, IMO, is a likely possibility.

D. Treo 650s-Given the recent news of the EU's RoHS laws stamping out the LD & 650 and the delay/lack of a new POS GSM Treo, Palm could have cranked out a huge pile of 650s (its component costs must be drastically cheper now than in '04) to keep major markets satisfied at least through year's end. I haver a feeling this is the main reason for the inventory backlog.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
freakout @ 7/20/2006 9:37:50 AM # Q
The E61 knocks the Treo out on every count...right now out of the box it has a full email client, browser, RSS reader, Mp3 etc player, Video player, spreadsheet, word processor, presentation package, bluetooth printing and so on. Value wise its on a different plane
Touchscreen? Threaded SMS? :P
Treo comes with full email client, browser, music player, video player (albeit not many formats) and Docs2Go, an occasionally unstable but otherwise superb mobile office package. There's dozens of apps available to customise it any way you see fit.

I'm sorry but I can't quite see the logic in discussing how light the battery is? Surely it's about how heavy carrying around the whole working phone is?

I'm merely pointing out there are reasons the Treo is heavy, and one of them is not a bad one: you get a powerful battery.

Now, with an E61, downloading podcasts, news feeds, web pages, weather & currency updates, It's all FREE on my home net. Takes a couple of minutes before I leave the house each morning & my phone is set up for the rest of the day. It's saving me a fortune on my mobile tariff.

My Treo does the same thing sitting on it's pretty Innodock cradle every day. It's called AvantGo. :P I can also do it wirelessly by Bluetooth if need be.
Wifi's great, but not essential.

I'm not knocking the E61. It seems a very nice device. But until I get to play with one, I don't see what it offers that my Treo doesn't already. Apart from looks. Obviously.
I'm very comfy in my groove. Until Nitro comes out. ;)

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
freakout @ 7/20/2006 9:54:02 AM # Q
D. Treo 650s-Given the recent news of the EU's RoHS laws stamping out the LD & 650 and the delay/lack of a new POS GSM Treo, Palm could have cranked out a huge pile of 650s (its component costs must be drastically cheper now than in '04) to keep major markets satisfied at least through year's end. I haver a feeling this is the main reason for the inventory backlog.

I think that's it too. And if 700-series sales have been softer than expected that'd be part of it as well.

Interesting times...

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
Surur @ 7/20/2006 10:46:01 AM # Q

Of note is that Moto sold 150 000+ Qs in 30 days on Verizon. It is estimated that Palm only sold 100 000 Treo 700ws on Verizon in 90 days. To many the Q appears to be a more compelling device.

Moto also said 100s of businesses are trialing the Q. It appears even in the enterprise space the Treo 700w is not safe.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/20/2006 11:15:57 AM # Q
> Does anyone have any idea what is accounting for that
> stockpile of inventory mentioned in the report?...

PALM explicitly said two key related things: (1) TREO 700W enterprise sales are not proceeding as expected ("still in trials" and "Long lead time to sale" excuses) and (2) the European channels were stuffed with TREO 650s prior to the June 30th low-lead(pb) deadline.

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
Rome @ 7/20/2006 2:40:09 PM # Q
>>Of note is that Moto sold 150 000+ Qs in 30 days on Verizon. It is estimated that Palm only sold 100 000 Treo 700ws on Verizon in 90 days. To many the Q appears to be a more compelling device.<<

Man, this board is depressing. The sky is falling, Palm sucks, Q rules, Nokia kicks ass, Samsung wins....

A couple of counterpoints to surur's post:

1, Moto shipped 150K of Q in 30 days, not sold. To be fair, most consumer electonic companies, if not all, report based on ship-in not ship-out. How many of those Q were actually sold and/or returned is anybody's guess.
2, Moto management said that it was going to ship 750K of Q in the first 90 days when Q was first launched. Guess moto was a "little" optimistic?
3, Given Q's low price($200 less than a 700), I was surprised that moto only shipped 50K more units in the first 30 days.

I have a 650 and I am very happy with it. And that's what matter to me.

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
richardyates @ 7/20/2006 6:39:44 PM # Q
My point about Christmas was not that more will be sold then, but simply that Palm has nothing in the (phone) market and isn't likely to for several months.

You're probably wondering why we make such a fuss about wifi in Europe. Right now I'm trying to find out GPRS roaming costs for a trip to Italy. Per Mb, the rates available to me range from 5.12UKP to 10.00UKP - thats about 9.45USD to 18.50USD per MB. Within the UK its usual to pay in the order of 2UKP per Mb (you can do it cheaper). Most times I can pay a tiny fraction of that (or nothing) for wifi access.

The 700 looks to me like a phone about 18 months after its time, and I say that with real sadness, since I go back all the way to a Palm IIIx

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
Surur @ 7/20/2006 6:41:15 PM # Q
Thats 150 000 in 30 days vs 100 000 in 90 days, ie. its "shipping" 4 1/2 times faster.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
freakout @ 7/20/2006 8:24:47 PM # Q
^^ While that should be a worrying statistic for Palm, in the end it's all fuel for the smartphone fire. A good thing for everyone involved.

Oh and congrats on your new post @ PDA247, Surur.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Is Palm's marriage with WM failing?
scstraus2 @ 7/23/2006 5:16:57 AM # Q
I've said this from the beginning. Palm is actually a pretty crap hardware manufacturer. They have no hope competing against the HPs, Nokias, Sonys, and Motorolas of the world on hardware. The one thing they had going for them, the PalmOS, they have sqandered by sticking with FrankenGarnet for so long. At least if they had moved to PalmOS 6 for a while before PalmSource went Linux, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Palm is completely incompetent and their latest offerings are horrible. If they can't produce something with a modern PalmOS soon, they won't exist much longer. But at this point I'm willing to say they deserve it.

Calling all hardware makers:

I will buy a PalmOS device not using Franketgarnet from ANYONE!

Please someone pick up the OS so we can let Palm die!

Reply to this comment

The Price Isn't Right?

jfme @ 7/19/2006 8:37:31 PM # Q
Maybe Palm can get away by charging golden eggs for exclusive Palm OS devices.

However in the Windows world, the competition is different and your hard earned dollars go a longer way... Wi-Fi anyone?

When industry standard features are obviously left out for the sake of a greater profit margin, people will just not bite...

Remember when the Tungsten T5 came out without Wi-Fi?

Deja vu

RE: The Price Isn't Right?
t3h @ 7/19/2006 9:16:55 PM # Q
Yeah. The TX was what the T5 should have been.

Soon to be getting a T|X ( or maybe T5, Lifedrive or Treo - I can't decide!)
RE: The Price Isn't Right?
hkklife @ 7/19/2006 10:49:16 PM # Q
Hmmm, Palm has a way of doing that:

-The PalmPilot was what the original Pilot should have been (no backlight? Even in 1996 that sucked!)
-The Palm Vx was what the V should have been

-The m515 was what the m505 should have been

-The T2 was what the T|T should have been

-The TX was what the T5 should have been (sort of)

-The Treo 650 was what the Treo 600 could have been had Handspring not been broke and sinking faster than a rock. Accordingly, the 700P is what the 650 should have been or at least released 6-8 months (fall '05) earlier than it was.

Playing this perpetual "coulda, shoulda, why didn't they?" game gets old very quickly with Palm. Look at all of the different permutations of the V3 by Motorola. There's a featureset, color, price point and (counting the L7) a formfactor for almost everyone. If the Treo line had even 1/10th of that variety Palm wouldn't have so many analysts/users/pundits urging them to sell out ASAP...

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Reply to this comment

WM Treo not selling well.

VampireLestat @ 7/20/2006 1:41:17 AM # Q
WM Treo not selling well.

* RAGING ROUND OF APPLAUSE *

Good! I never did like the WM move and if it fails I would be happy. Maybe Palm Inc. will get back to perfecting Palm OS 5, OS 6 and/or ALP. What a disgraceful and humiliating day it was when Verizon, Gates and Colligan were all on stage celebrating the defeat of PalmOS under the guise of "offering consumers MORE CHOICE! WOW!". Anyways...

WM is slow, WM is akward to use, the 240x240 screen is too low res and WM does not run right (alarms going off randomly or not at all, music starts playing when you turn on the device, etc). WM plain sucks.

By the way, how can all those people be returning WM Treos if they are under cell phone carrier contracts?

I pray ALP will be fast and have the Palm OS simplicity and convenience. Please God please.

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
AdamaDBrown @ 7/20/2006 3:16:51 AM # Q
WM Treo not selling well.

Where do you get that from? The article never mentions the WM Treo at all. The 700w is only about 20% of Palm's Treo sales, and you'd have to engage in a ludicrous amount of fact-stretching to single-handedly attribute to it a 63% rise in inventory.

WM is slow, WM is akward to use, the 240x240 screen is too low res and WM does not run right (alarms going off randomly or not at all, music starts playing when you turn on the device, etc). WM plain sucks.

Whatever you used, I advise you have it exorcised.

By the way, how can all those people be returning WM Treos if they are under cell phone carrier contracts?

They couldn't be. And who said anything about people returning the 700w? And who said anything about the 700w in the first place? Where the hell are you getting all this?

I pray ALP will be fast and have the Palm OS simplicity and convenience. Please God please.

Palm Inc has no interest in ALP whatsoever. They were unwilling to commit to anything about it when it was still PalmLinux, and they've never even acknowledged the fact that it exists since the buyout. Further, Palm and Access are not on terribly good terms. Palm and ALP, not going to happen.

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
KultiVator @ 7/20/2006 4:08:24 AM # Q
AdamaDBrown wrote...

Further, Palm and Access are not on terribly good terms.

Yeah - that recent interview gave Access an opportunity to talk about how excited they are about their continued symbiotic relationship with Palm Inc. The fact that the recent 'scoop' Access interview was so muted leaves me quite concerned on that front and wondering whether Palm themselves really have the drive to bring out their own next generation Linux-based OS.

If not, this time next year, we may all be customers of Nokia/Motorola or some other manufacturer who actually invests in innovation and product stability (I love my TX but is does have some silly niggles that should have been worked out... like being able to remember the left-handedness setting after a reset!).

KultiVator

p.s. Come on Palm/PalmSource - you need to step things up a gear and do more to inform the public about your future roadmap. Let's see technology dems on test rigs/emulators - we don't even need to see the upcoming devices, just a glimpse of the future of Palm. We just need to see that our investment in your devices has somewhere left to go - so we don't jump ship before your next round of (most likely) uninspired hardware refreshes.

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
VampireLestat @ 7/20/2006 5:27:50 AM # Q
Let us not forget that Palm Inc has a 4 year (or so) contract with Access and they are required to pay in full only if Access meets "certain Linux development" milestones. Remember that guys?

Things would have been more pleasant if Palm had not been outbid to acquire PalmSource. btw, whatever happened to Motorola's (or was is Nokia's?) plans to sue PalmSource for breach of an agreement to sell out to them?
------------
Would be so simple to use Cobalt instead. *shaking of head in cynical disbelief*. Time to market, schmarket, all an illusion. When did Palm get that crazy idea anyways? I bet it was following the fiasco with Sandisk when Palm and Sandisk got into what looked like a legal fight and then Palm could not provide a quick wifi card for its devices (because they could not get wifi drivers developed).
-------------
OK let me jump wildly back to the Treo 700w for sec..
Palm said/says and supporters say that it is to penetrate the corporate market. That is bs in my humble educated highly wise opinion. I know of some big companies that embrace the Treo 650 and the workers love them. I even know of a major multinational that orders huge numbers of Treo 650s for its workforce. They are used because they are reliable, they are wireless, they are phones and PEOPLE FIND PALM OS EASY TO USE. All these dummy companies poo-pooing PalmOS because of their disillusion that anything serious has to be Microsoft simply need to be enlightened. At the end of the day if the workers are more productive, more connected and happy, that is all that counts. Corporate basic requirements are Exchange, high wifi security keys, simplicity, low maintenance costs and reliability.

Man.. this ALP better offer that same edge to workers or else things will get very ugly for Palm. Id almost say that staying with OS 5 forever is probably better than releasing a slow or buggy ALP. Time will tell. I would be crapping my pants if I was Colligan in the wait of ALP.

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
VampireLestat @ 7/20/2006 5:52:15 AM # Q
hmm.. imagine the terror that would befall on Palm Inc if HP were to suddenly announce that they are licensing Cobalt or ALP... *shiver*.

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/20/2006 6:52:39 AM # Q
> ...I know of some big companies that embrace the Treo 650
> and the workers love them. I even know of a major multinational
> that orders huge numbers of Treo 650s for its workforce. They are
> used because they are reliable, they are wireless, they are
> phones and PEOPLE FIND PALM OS EASY TO USE...

Oh really?

Name them!

Or disclose why you don't.

=====

Yahoo has a nice reminder about message board posts that is aimed at investors rather than general readership but it really applies everywhere under any situation, not just investing; maybe PalmInfocenter should have one, too:

-----

Words to remember:

== "...Information posted to message boards
== should not be used as a substitute for
== independent research, and should not be
== relied on to trade or make investment
== decisions. Prudent investors do their
== homework and don't believe everything they
== read on message boards..."
==
== "...Never assume people are who they say
== they are, know what they say they know, or
== are affiliated with whom they say they are
== affiliated..."

-- http://messages.yahoo.com/reminder.html

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
freakout @ 7/20/2006 8:00:47 AM # Q
> ...I know of some big companies that embrace the Treo 650
> and the workers love them. I even know of a major multinational
> that orders huge numbers of Treo 650s for its workforce. They are
> used because they are reliable, they are wireless, they are
> phones and PEOPLE FIND PALM OS EASY TO USE...

Oh really?

Name them!


I pulled these from Palm's press room:

PHT Corp
Monster.com
Foxhollow Technologies
invivodata
SanDisk
Sun Microsystems
Primerica
SureXpress
Ariba

There were more, I just really couldn't be bothered listing them all.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
Sleuth255 @ 7/20/2006 3:24:52 PM # Q
The fortune 500 company I work for buys AKU2 equipped Treo 700s and Cingular 8125s. We do this because we can set up Microsoft Direct push and bypass 3rd party systems.

As an ex PalmOS fanatic I can succinctly state that WM5 is a fine and worthy OS, second only to Symbian now. M$'s 1Q07 successor will solidify this position as it brings us even closer to fully mobile presence management.

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
maybepalm @ 7/21/2006 9:05:14 AM # Q
Hi, just the time to inform all of you that the troll identified here as "SeldomVisitor" is the worst bashing, annoying liar on the Yahoo finance board for PALM: alias "Hengeem". He's short the stock and was identified as a disgruntled ex-HAND employee. Do not believe any words from him - everybody has it on ignore on Yahoo.

And regarding all the whining here about "PALM shoulda, coulda, I know better and soon all the mighty competition will crush'em" I pollitely remember that took MightyMotorola almost 2 years to come out with the clumsy Q, WinCE smartphone edition that cannot install PocketPC apps and cannot edit Office files. Samsung, BenQ, and others announced devices that are nowere to be found, and even the king, NOKIA, just now, after years of bricks, has the E61, a copy of the Treo.
I do have a bias? Sure, I'm a PALM investor.

The best to the board. (no, not you Hengeem)

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/21/2006 9:27:13 AM # Q
(what an amazing loser!)

Also from the Yahoo message boards:

-----

Words to remember:

== "...Information posted to message boards
== should not be used as a substitute for
== independent research, and should not be
== relied on to trade or make investment
== decisions. Prudent investors do their
== homework and don't believe everything they
== read on message boards..."
==
== "...Never assume people are who they say
== they are, know what they say they know, or
== are affiliated with whom they say they are
== affiliated..."

-- http://messages.yahoo.com/reminder.html

Giggle.

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
Foo Fighter @ 7/21/2006 1:55:21 PM # Q
>> "and even the king, NOKIA, just now, after years of bricks, has the E61, a copy of the Treo."

That's an uninformed opinion ever there was one. The E61 has as much in common with the Treo as mashed potatoes have to gravel. They're both smartphones with Qwerty keyboards, that's about as far as the similarities go. Or are you under the delusional assumption that Nokia somehow copied Palm simply because they designed their smartphone with a Qwerty too? Newsflash: Palm (originally Handspring) copied the Blackberry. RIM was first to market with Qwerty communicators, not Palm. So you might want to rethink that, because both Palm and Nokia have berry stained hands.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: WM Treo not selling well.
richardyates @ 7/21/2006 6:18:00 PM # Q
Rim was years behind Nokia with the first qwerty communicator - The Nokia 9000 must be about 10 years old

Reply to this comment

Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/20/2006 9:30:09 PM # Q
"Innovate or die!"

"Innovation is dead!"

Which of the above two catchphrases is true with respect to the smartphone world? I'm not sure that I know the answer to that question anymore. Do you?


After years of coming up empty, Handspring struck gold with its last corporate breath when it created the brilliant Treo 600. Make no mistake about it - the Treo 600 was an innovative device. In the PalmOS world the Treo 600 is second only to the original Pilot 1000 in terms of historical significance and (in my opinion) second only to the Sony CLIE UX50 in terms of purity of design/engineering. I've always been impressed by the amout of thought that went into Handspring's Treo 600 Hail Mary (touchdown) pass. Even the fact that this impressive design unfortunately was subsequently crippled by suboptimal construction and underwhelming parts selection did not diminish what the Treo 600 was able to accomplish.


Palm later took advantage of Handspring's innovation and hitched palm0ne/Palm, Inc. up to the Treo Express and rode it back to (barely) profitability. Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Motorola, et. al. have had 3 years to observe the successes and failures of Handspring's innovation and have no doubt learned several real world lessons about smartphone usability/design from Handspring's protracted beta hardware test (let's be honest here) called the Treo 600/650/700p.

Has the Treo franchaise been successful? Yes it has. No it has not. You decide. Ever-increasing sales of high margin Treo handsets have brought a much-needed injection of cash into Palm's coffers, but in the long run the Treo may become a two-edged sword. Much of the Treo's success is attributable to two facts:

1) Palm's failure to release any compelling high end PDAs since Palm began focusing on the smartphone branch of the company likely allowed the Treo to cannibalize sales to customers that would have otherwise bought a traditional tablet-style PDA. While this conjecture is impossible to prove, the rise in Treo sales have been accompanied by a similar decline in sales of traditional tablet-style PalmOS PDAs. The PalmOS device market appears to be finite - at least as long as devices contine to be sold at current price levels.

2) Up until now Palm has had no serious competitors in the smartphone world. The Treo is the de facto standard for smartphone design and even today no competitor can match its combination of integrated OS, User Interface, keyboard, size, price and application library.

But the sword cuts both ways and the smartphone Muses that giveth in 2004-06 may taketh (and draweth a lot of blood [red ink]) in 2006-07. Ed Colligan has assumed a somewhat... precarious... position: genuflected before Lord Bill Gates, while desperately clutching the blade of the sword held to his neck by his (other) new master (The Carriers). Oh dear. What's a poor CEO to do? Palm no longer has to satisfy the capriciousness of end users one at a time. Now the company only has to court (and satisfy the capriciousness of) a limited number of carriers. Unfortunately, Palm had essentially ZERO experience in the Art of Seduction of Carriers prior to the Handspring merger, and even the Handspring cellphone people they picked up in the merger are relative newbies in the cellphone business. Pundits who watch the cellphone industry have been routinely bemused by the repeated bumblings of Handspring/Palm over the years. Palm's lack of a significantly new Treo product since the original Treo 600 was released almost 3 years ago is rather unfortunate and quite telling. Sometimes Palm's actions appear akin to seppuku...

I feel the Treo 600 was at least 2 years ahead of its time. I say this as a compliment, meaning its combination of OS, UI, keyboard and software was so well integrated that it would take the competition two years to produce a competitive device for the same price. But the Treo's position as a smartphone at least 2 years ahead of its time cuts both ways. Was the (non-geek) world "ready" for an all-out smartphone in 2003? Or even in 2006? Looking at 2003 - 2006's wireless network speeds + data costs, processor speeds (Moore's Law), battery technology, screen size, capabilities of existing smartphone OSes, Bill of Materials (including memory costs and screen costs), do smartphones automatically restrict their appeal to a very limited market? A market that just wasn't worth breaking a sweat over the past 2 years trying to woo, since it would inevitably evaporate* (*see below) anyway? Sony Ericsson, Nokia and Motorola's failure up until now to introduce a "Treo-killer" at a price that undercuts the Treo suggests that doing so wasn't worth it to them. (Trust me - any of the top 10 handset manufacturers could have easily produced a better "Treo 700" than Palm in 2006 if they wanted to...) Looking at what happened to Samsung's brilliant i500 and ill-fated i550 PalmOS smartphones gives a few clues as to why we haven't seen a tidal wave of all-out smartphones since the Treo 600 came onto the market.

One could take this a step further and pose the question I did on Michael Mace's clever blog site: In the end, if no one really wants to perform computing tasks on a cellphone, perhaps smartphones are an answer to a question that no one was asking?

Yikes! Now how's that for profound?

http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2006/06/we-need-new-mobile-platform-sort-of.html

Smartphone advocates tend to ignore the obvious fact that performing computing functions with crippled apps on a tiny 1 - 2 inch smartphone screen is a major hassle. Micro tablets (with 4 to 6 inch screens) like the Sony VAIO UX50 running Windows XP + genuine Windows apps + connected via Bluetooth to a tiny EVDO smartphone (or containing a cellphone radio) make a lot more sense for ultra mobile computing than smartphones do. Adequate screen size for video viewing + regular computing; decent sized keyboard; running the same software as regular desktops + laptops. THIS is the future of mobile computing.

When you take a close look at what sells to the average (non-geek) consumer and to the business world, it becomes increasingly obvious that smartphones like the Treo 600/650/700 are living on borrowed time. Consumers like simple, small, stylish devices that do a limited number of tasks and do them well. Compare the cellphones produced by Sony Ericsson, Samsung and Nokia to Palm's current offerings (Treo 650/700w/700p). How does Palm stand a chance against the powerhouses of the handset world?

http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?cc=us&lc=en&ver=4000&template=pp1&zone=pp&lm=pp

http://www.samsungtelecom.com/recommend/view_all.asp

http://www.nokiausa.com/phones/comparephones

The best consumer electronics also need to work straight out of the box, without needing to consult a manual. Apple's iPod is a great example of consumer design done right. Palm, on the other hand, has blown a number of opportunities to solidify it's long term future by failing to simplify the number of steps needed to use its devices to the fullest. (Ironic, coming from a company that used to stress attentiveness to minimizing the number of taps needed to perform a given function).

Features Palm failed to exploit:

1) PalmOS software library. Every Palm device since 1999 should have shipped with a CD containing a simple, easy-to-browse catalog of the top 1000 PalmOS applications, containing screenshots + app descriptions and allowing 1-click installation of apps to the device. Deleting apps should have been improved by integrating an app like Uninstall Manager into PalmOS. Every Palm device since 2003 should have shipped with a library of trial applications loaded onto a browsable (and preferrably upgradable) 256 MB memory chip. Palm could easily have coded an SD card browser/installer app; the SD card would have cost peanuts to produce + expenses could have been lessened by charging commercial developers a fee for preferential listing of their applications by the browser.

2) MP3 player. Palm has yet to ship a device with a simple, high quality MP3 player and software aimed at rivalling the organizing ability of iTunes. Now that featurephones with MP3 capabilities are becoming commonplace (e.g. http://www.samsung.com/Products/MobilePhones/Sprint/SPH_A920WSSXAR.asp) the window of opportunity for leveraging MP3 capability to sell PalmOS devices has effectively closed.

3) Video player. Palm has yet to ship a device with a simple, high quality video player and software capable of easily creating + managing video files. The window of opportunity for leveraging video capability to sell PalmOS devices will likely be closed before the end of 2006. PalmOS lacks high end hardware for video playback (the stunning OLED-screened CLIE VZ90 + TCPMP showed how much wasted potential PalmOS had for video use); PalmOS has no Slingbox player; featurephones now offer mobile TV playback and other advaced content that PalmOS lacks. Video appears to be a lost cause for PalmOS.

4) Email. Palm had a golden opportunity to dominate the lucrative "push" emailmarket that RIM currently is making BILLIONS of $$$ from. Instead of creating and aggressively marketing a turn key Palm-branded email solution (Treo/Wi-Fi PDAs/software) to businesses, Palm took the... passive approach and left it up to individual companies like Good, Seven, etc to try to grow this market and provide the software to run on Palm's high margin Treos. The result was a fragmented smattering of offerings from several different companies, each too small to gain the trust of big business. Had Palm simply licensed a single push email solution and made it a standard component of the Treo package they could have become the new RIM and assured themselves a stable future supplying + supporting devices for wealthy corporate customers for many years to come.

In 2006 we will see that most of the functions previously thought to define the abilities of a smartphone are actually offered by featurephones as well. And in many cases, featurephones can perform these so-called "smartphone" functions more efficiently than full-fledged smartphones like the Treo family. It is also becoming obvious that the much-ballyhooed PalmOS library is a white elephant. The Average Joe doesn't want to hunt for a dozen obscure applications needed just to fix missing functionality within their device. A well designed inexpensive featurephone with simple, intuitive software for MP3 playback and management, video/TV playback and email, all combined in a small, stylish, light shell with high voice quality will likely be exponentially more popular with the Average Joe than phones like the Treos.

It appears that the reason the major handset manufacturers didn't go after the Treo may have been because this type of device (smartphones) was doomed from Day 1. The Treo-style smartphones' 15 minutes of fame appears to be over. Multifunction phone-centric featurephones, traditional laptops (and possibly micro tablets running Windows XP/Vista) are the future. Has Jeff Hawkins' secret project been killed off by the natural (inevitable) evolution of traditional devices (cellphones + laptops)? Apparently.


TVoR
Copyright 2006.

(my final article/opinion piece submission to Palminfocenter)

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
freakout @ 7/21/2006 4:36:56 AM # Q
Smartphone advocates tend to ignore the obvious fact that performing computing functions with crippled apps on a tiny 1 - 2 inch smartphone screen is a major hassle. Micro tablets (with 4 to 6 inch screens) like the Sony VAIO UX50 running Windows XP + genuine Windows apps + connected via Bluetooth to a tiny EVDO smartphone (or containing a cellphone radio) make a lot more sense for ultra mobile computing than smartphones do. Adequate screen size for video viewing + regular computing; decent sized keyboard; running the same software as regular desktops + laptops. THIS is the future of mobile computing.

It all depends on what computing functions you need, doesn't it?

Y'know what's so likeable about the Treo? (Well one thing anyway) It features an OS that was always designed for small screens, mobile input and later, one-handed operation. Unlike Windows Mobile it owes very little functionality to desktop OS design. Beyond the UI advantages, though, are the benefits it offers in speed and battery life. Unlike featurephones (which I assume are defined as having closed operating systems) a smartphone gives you choice – a huge variety of apps that are designed with mobility in mind. While this matters little to the consumer masses, there is and always will be people out there who want that choice in their phone. Geeks such as myself, businesses, whoever. So it's not and may never be a huge market; so what? So long as there's money to be made from it...

I think the future of phones is actually probably going to eventually wind up being more like Star Trek (oh God, I really am a geek...) with a teensy little badge or something similar - earpiece, cufflink, whatever – that you talk through. You'll use a little tablet for everything else.

But that day is still a long ways off. And until it arrives, I intend to cut down on the clutter in my pockets. When I leave the house, I only ever need three things: keys, wallet, Treo. I don't really need a full-on mobile PC; there are desktops PCs everywhere I go (literally) and it's hard to keep a tablet in your pocket. It's also a cheaper solution than buying seperate devices that can do all the same things my smartphone can. I'm sure the same is true for a lot of people's lifestyles.

The smartphone market may eventually be taken over by featurephones that offer all the same things, but all that really means is that the definitions have changed. As you said, Palm's window to do some creative things (a 320x480 Treo, for instance) is rapidly closing. But it ain't shut yet.


*****************
Oh, and you're not allowed to leave PIC. The mighty freakout forbids it. Thus is the Word.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
sbradfor @ 7/21/2006 2:42:25 PM # Q
Smartphone advocates tend to ignore the obvious fact that performing computing functions with crippled apps on a tiny 1 - 2 inch smartphone screen is a major hassle. Micro tablets (with 4 to 6 inch screens) like the Sony VAIO UX50 running Windows XP + genuine Windows apps + connected via Bluetooth to a tiny EVDO smartphone (or containing a cellphone radio) make a lot more sense for ultra mobile computing than smartphones do. Adequate screen size for video viewing + regular computing; decent sized keyboard; running the same software as regular desktops + laptops. THIS is the future of mobile computing.

I agree with much of what you said. I would love to see a BIGGER smartphone that had an almost full size keyboard with a larger screen. Maybe 7" x 3.5". This would solve a lot of problems.

Part of the problem though, is that NONE of these larger devices support cell phone service. Doesn't that seem a bit odd? Like maybe the software/equipment manufacturers are mssing the boat? I'd love a lightweight mini-notebook that I could use as a cell phone with a bluetooth headset. Something small enough to carry with me most of the time.

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/21/2006 3:22:47 PM # Q
> ...I'd love a lightweight mini-notebook that I could use as a
> cell phone with a bluetooth headset. Something small enough to
> carry with me most of the time.

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=33796&highlight=thoughts+communicator

Giggle.

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/21/2006 9:36:23 PM # Q
>>>Smartphone advocates tend to ignore the obvious fact that performing computing functions with crippled apps on a tiny 1 - 2 inch smartphone screen is a major hassle. Micro tablets (with 4 to 6 inch screens) like the Sony VAIO UX50 running Windows XP + genuine Windows apps + connected via Bluetooth to a tiny EVDO smartphone (or containing a cellphone radio) make a lot more sense for ultra mobile computing than smartphones do. Adequate screen size for video viewing + regular computing; decent sized keyboard; running the same software as regular desktops + laptops. THIS is the future of mobile computing.

It all depends on what computing functions you need, doesn't it?

Yes, but at the end of the day the amount of SERIOUS work you can do with a smartphone is QUITE limited by screen size + lack of availability of Real Windows™ applications. (Sure you can try and replace a laptop with your Treo - but not unless you're both very creative and a bit of a masochist.)

now what's so likeable about the Treo? (Well one thing anyway) It features an OS that was always designed for small screens, mobile input and later, one-handed operation. Unlike Windows Mobile it owes very little functionality to desktop OS design. Beyond the UI advantages, though, are the benefits it offers in speed and battery life. Unlike featurephones (which I assume are defined as having closed operating systems) a smartphone gives you choice – a huge variety of apps that are designed with mobility in mind. While this matters little to the consumer masses, there is and always will be people out there who want that choice in their phone. Geeks such as myself, businesses, whoever. So it's not and may never be a huge market; so what? So long as there's money to be made from it...

Again, while this is nice for a SMALL number of people, the limited functionality and tiny sreen size of smartphones means that they automatically will have a small following. As featurephones add "features" that were formally only seen on smartphones, the market for smartphones will quickly dry up. Compare the Samsung A920 to the Samsung i500 and you'll see why traditional smartphones are dead.

I think the future of phones is actually probably going to eventually wind up being more like Star Trek (oh God, I really am a geek...) with a teensy little badge or something similar - earpiece, cufflink, whatever – that you talk through. You'll use a little tablet for everything else.

That future isn't all that far off. In fact, if people were conditioned to using Bluetooth headsets and a manufacturer was willing to eliminate the traditional speaker + microphone from the cellphone's components, it's aleady possible to create a Bluetooth cellphone that could be clipped/pinned to clothing. The main sticking point is that most people aren't yet comfortable giving up traditional cellphone ergonomics. I predict VoIP will revolutionize how people think about the devices they think of as "phones" and will speed acceptance of a wearable cellphone.

But that day is still a long ways off.

I disagree.

And until it arrives, I intend to cut down on the clutter in my pockets. When I leave the house, I only ever need three things: keys, wallet, Treo. I don't really need a full-on mobile PC; there are desktops PCs everywhere I go (literally) and it's hard to keep a tablet in your pocket. It's also a cheaper solution than buying seperate devices that can do all the same things my smartphone can. I'm sure the same is true for a lot of people's lifestyles.

And most people won't need a "full-on" smartphone - upcoming (and current) featurephones perform most of the mobile "computing" needs the Average Joanne has. (Most people will only want to perform viewing/lookup functions with phone-sized devices rather than data entry.)

The smartphone market may eventually be taken over by featurephones that offer all the same things, but all that really means is that the definitions have changed.

I disagree. I think we all really know what we mean when we think of the word "smartphone". It's a data-centric (not voice-centric) device like a Treo that runs an OS with a large number of available standalone (i.e. non-Java, etc.) applications: i.e. Windows Mobile, PalmOS and some Symbian devices. Just like how in the PalmOS world the traditional PDA (tablet form factor) is being superceded by a different class of devices (smartphones), traditional smartphones will be quickly obviated by "FULLfeatureDphones™".

As you said, Palm's window to do some creative things (a 320x480 Treo, for instance) is rapidly closing. But it ain't shut yet.

I disagree. The window was just shut by Nokia, Sony Ericsson and Motorola with their 2006-07 lineup of phones. Palm's tired "strategy" of incremental upgrades and the difficulties Palm had in following the Treo 600 up with a decent new design also leant a hand is shutting and then hermetically sealing that former window of opportunity.

*****************
Oh, and you're not allowed to leave PIC. The mighty freakout forbids it. Thus is the Word.

I'm not leaving PIC. Just no more atricle submissions from TVoR.


TVoR


RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/21/2006 11:49:25 PM # Q
I agree with much of what you said. I would love to see a BIGGER smartphone that had an almost full size keyboard with a larger screen. Maybe 7" x 3.5". This would solve a lot of problems.

Part of the problem though, is that NONE of these larger devices support cell phone service. Doesn't that seem a bit odd? Like maybe the software/equipment manufacturers are mssing the boat? I'd love a lightweight mini-notebook that I could use as a cell phone with a bluetooth headset. Something small enough to carry with me most of the time.


http://www.mobiletechreview.com/sony_ux180/Sony-Vaio-UX180P.htm

This is the future. Today.

I believe most people that would actually use a device with built-in cellphone radio will probably be techy enough to already be using VoIP. And everyone else would simply prefer maintaining separates: a tiny phone-centric high-speed data-capable cellphone like the Samsung A920 and 4 to 6 inch screened Windows tablet.


TVoR

Long live smartphones (or communicators)
freakout @ 7/22/2006 3:26:08 AM # Q
That review you linked to was quite interesting; the author's obviously a Treo fan. In particular, there's this quote:

Ergonomically, the Vaio is a delight, and that's something I rarely say (the Treo is the only other device to receive that honor).

The original term Handspring was using to describe the Treo before "smartphone" came into vogue was "communicator". I think in some ways it's still more applicable than 'smartphone'. What is the Treo, really? A communications tool, and it does this job exceedingly well. The touchscreen + exposed keyboard + one handed nav is perfect for quick emails, messages or snippets of web information. The form factor is almost perfectly balanced on the knife-edge between "too small to be usable" and "too big to be used as a phone without looking stupid". It's a handy design, dammit. I think devices in this form factor will always be reasonably popular - at least until the price of carrying a UMPC goes down. The UX180P is $1800!! You're going to need something to carry it in cause it's certainly not going to slide neatly into your pocket, and since you're at that kind of price, some people might wonder if they should just buy a full-fledged laptop instead - and probably for less.

I also point out the rather dismal 3-hour battery life with wi-fi on. (8 hours as an mp3 player is impressive, but who's going to use this beast as an mp3 player?)

It's the future, but technology and price still isn't there yet.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/22/2006 6:25:28 AM # Q
>> ...I think the future of phones is actually probably going to
>> eventually wind up being more like Star Trek (oh God, I really
>> am a geek...) with a teensy little badge or something similar
>> - earpiece, cufflink, whatever – that you talk through. You'll
>> use a little tablet for everything else.
>
> That future isn't all that far off...

Indeed:

-- http://www.vonage.com/vphoneparty/

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
AdamaDBrown @ 7/22/2006 12:53:24 PM # Q
When you can get a sub-$500 UMPC with a 4" SVGA screen and acceptable battery life, then they'll be ready to take off. Unfortunately, due to the realities of engineering, that day is probably 3-4 years away.

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/24/2006 3:06:47 PM # Q
When you can get a sub-$500 UMPC with a 4" SVGA screen and acceptable battery life, then they'll be ready to take off. Unfortunately, due to the realities of engineering, that day is probably 3-4 years away.

I believe you are wrong. I expect to see good UMPC with decent battery life (4 hours) within 2 years. For those of us living on the cutting edge, the VAIO UX50 works fine TODAY.

TVoR

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
AdamaDBrown @ 7/24/2006 11:43:25 PM # Q
Perhaps, but combined with acceptable size and low price? I'd consider a UMPC if you could cram it into, say, the size of an HTC Universal with a price tag under $600. But most people are not going to accept four times the price and six times the size of a dedicated PDA in exchange for something which still isn't quite as good as a real laptop.

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
hkklife @ 7/25/2006 11:57:19 AM # Q
With the absolutely plummeting price of notebooks (you can even get a haldway decent Acer or Dell for <$500), I doubt "most people" are going to accept anything remotely resembling a tablet/PDA/smartphone unless it's less than $400--possibly less.

Hardcore techies are still just a sliver of the market. Given the choice of a UX50 OR a Dell 14" Celeron notebook + a T|E2 combo, the average joe would take the tried & true PDA+notebook combo over the UMPC anyday. I expect this paradigm to hold true for another three years, easily. Look how (relatively) little the "smartphone" & PDA markets have evolved in the past three years. One can even argue that the PDA market has been devolving every since '03ish...



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
Foo Fighter @ 7/25/2006 4:19:28 PM # Q
>> "Given the choice of a UX50 OR a Dell 14" Celeron notebook + a T|E2 combo, the average joe would take the tried & true PDA+notebook combo over the UMPC anyday. I expect this paradigm to hold true for another three years, easily."

No, most "average joe" consumers are going to opt for just the Notebook and nothing else. The PDA is a dead paradigm. Notebooks are infinitely more useful, and becoming more affordable with each passing year. As you already noted, cheapo laptops can be had for just over $500. Back when the average entry-level portable PC cost well over $1,500 to two grand, buying a $300-400 PDA made sense, as an inexpensive adjunct to your work and home PC. That computing model is now obsolete. And no matter what features are added to PDAs, consumers and professionals will continue to shun them in favor of a Notebook + cell phone.

What intelligent person would buy a PDA, powered by a brain-dead mobile OS running a scaled down caricature of MS Office on a tiny 3.0" or less screen while scribbling away with a plastic toothpick, when you can have a REAL COMPUTER, running real desktop apps, with all your content, plus a large screen (usually at least 12 or 13") and nice full size keyboard with I/O out the wazoo.

Seriously, the PDA is a comical solution Aside from diehard Mobile geeks like us and certain vertical applications, there just isn't a market.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
freakout @ 7/25/2006 7:19:44 PM # Q
What intelligent person would buy a PDA, powered by a brain-dead mobile OS running a scaled down caricature of MS Office on a tiny 3.0" or less screen while scribbling away with a plastic toothpick, when you can have a REAL COMPUTER, running real desktop apps, with all your content, plus a large screen (usually at least 12 or 13") and nice full size keyboard with I/O out the wazoo.

Someone who didn't want to have to carry something so bulky around with them all the time?

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
cervezas @ 7/25/2006 8:04:03 PM # Q
Personally, I think smartphones, PDAs, UMPCs, AND PCs as we know them are ALL going to go the way of the dodo before too long.

I feel confident in saying this because categories like these always do. But a lot of the writing is already on the wall and I can see a pretty good path toward some personal devices that aren't really any of the above but which could eat the lunch of the rest.

I doubt I'm the only one.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
Gekko @ 7/25/2006 8:26:30 PM # Q

nah. all present and future personal portable devices will continue to converge into the smartphone. why? because the cellular phone trumps all other devices and most people don't want to carry more than one device if they don't have to. as technology advances, there will be less compromises with the choice of one device.



RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
e_tellurian @ 7/26/2006 4:31:59 AM # Q
Here is a thought ... not free.

Build cell phones into laptop PCs that simply acts as a numeric key pad when in the unit and a phone when pulled out, (a physical interface).

Simply press the smart phone onto the laptop and pull when needed as a phone. When finished simply press back onto the keyboard section of the laptop. Huge multitasking potential while offering all the choices of a mobile phone.

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 7/26/2006 6:36:11 AM # Q
In a post somewhere around here I linked to the "Vonage phone" site. Check it out - it IS what you say (albeit wireless only, not cellular).

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
AdamaDBrown @ 7/26/2006 11:55:17 AM # Q
nah. all present and future personal portable devices will continue to converge into the smartphone. why? because the cellular phone trumps all other devices and most people don't want to carry more than one device if they don't have to. as technology advances, there will be less compromises with the choice of one device.

Nobody ever wants to predict the status quo. Saying that things are going to continue as they are now for awhile yet isn't nearly as sexy as predicting imminent fire and destruction. No, minitablets aren't going to take over. Smartphones aren't going to take over. For the time being, until there's a better device class with fewer compromises, I predict that the market will continue to chug along more or less as it is.

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
Foo Fighter @ 7/26/2006 5:25:04 PM # Q
>> "I predict that the market will continue to chug along more or less as it is.

You mean continue to decline, at least where handhelds are concerned...and ultimately die off. Smartphones continue to grow while non-cellular PDAs like the TX and Axim decline. And don't forget, the market seems to think of the traditional PDA as a poor compromise, or at least one that isn't compelling enough to justify.


-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
Gekko @ 7/26/2006 6:10:50 PM # Q

the trend is clear. don't fight the trend.



RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/26/2006 10:14:02 PM # Q
SIZE matters.


The smartphone cheerleaders don't seem to be capable of grasping this little fact. The number of people willing to perform real computing tasks on a device with a phone-sized screen and using non-Windows applications is vanishingly small. Laptops and microlaptops offer functionality that makes smartphones look like a joke. Windows microlaptops/palmtops have the massive advantage of screen size and ability to run Real Windows applications. Wi-Fi and Bluetooth connection to tiny cellphones on broadband data networks covers the connectivity problem. Furthermore, the PalmOS Treo sales are about to implode because the smartphone niche has now been made irrelevant by more cleverly-packaged featurephones.

People claiming that smartphones are booming are being dishonest. The Nokia Symbian phones and Motorola Linux phones that pad the "smartphone" numbers are more accurately classified as non-smartphone devices.

Face it - Treo-style smartphones missed their chance to shine. Featurephones won. Game over.

TVoR

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
freakout @ 7/27/2006 5:07:08 AM # Q
Who, really, is going to try and replace a laptop with a smartphone? Nobody, of course. But for a lot of people - myself included - a laptop or a UMPC is [B]overkill[/B]. Do you really need all that horsepower to access your information on the go? Of course not. Why would you want it, anyway? I realise I'm undermining my geek cred by asking that, but really, I'd just get annoyed at the bulk after the novelty wore off.

A smartphone can go places a laptop can't. It's cheaper, easier to carry, will hopefully have a better battery life and (depending on your needs) is simply more convenient. Both have their uses. Why do people insist on comparing the two anyway? Both are computers and that's pretty much all they have in common.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
Surur @ 7/27/2006 8:44:14 AM # Q

I am actually using my HTC Universal as a laptop replacement. I have a nice laptop, but I rather not drag it around with me every day, and unlike my Universal it does not fit in my shirt pocket. On the other hand I's sure I could work faster and better with a full-sized machine, but the disadvantages currently outweigh the advantages to me.

Maybe a UMPC would suite me better, and I am certainly observing the field. However there is a bit of the feeling that when they do come down to the price, size and features of my smartphone, they would likly have the same interface problems also.

Surur

BTW freakout, thanks for the congrats earlier. I'm enjoying having a platform for my ranting. If you want to add an antipodian angle I'm sure your input would be appreciated also.

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
naio21 @ 7/27/2006 10:32:55 AM # Q
Sorry Surur, but for a HTC Universal to fit in someone's pocket it must be REALLY huge and reinforced with kevlar.

What a BB device! (not blackberry, but bulkybrick)

Ivan

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm.
Surur @ 7/27/2006 11:16:29 AM # Q

Just for the skeptics, I took a ruler to my shirt. It is actually 14 cm wide and 15 cm deep, into which my 13 x 8 x 2 cm universal fits quite comfortably, even too loosely. If it was tighter it would have been better, as I could then bend down without dropping it. Of course I am nearly 2 m tall, so maybe my shirt pockets are larger than average, I dont know. Rest assured however that I often carry my Universal in my breast pocket. It is very heavy however, and weighs down on your collar, but for a few minutes it not too much to bear.

I dont however think I could ever fit a UMPC in my shirt or pants pocket. I would need a umpc bag (also called a man purse ;-) )

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm. DEAD. DEAD. DEAD.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2006 2:16:48 PM # Q
Who, really, is going to try and replace a laptop with a smartphone? Nobody, of course.

Actually, I've met quite a few who have done that. I tried it myself with a CLIE UX50 and if the UX50 had a slightly bigger screen I'd probably condider it a reasonable laptop replacement for 90% of the time


But for a lot of people - myself included - a laptop or a UMPC is overkill. Do you really need all that horsepower to access your information on the go? Of course not. Why would you want it, anyway? I realise I'm undermining my geek cred by asking that, but really, I'd just get annoyed at the bulk after the novelty wore off.

Wrong. You don't appreciate having all your info with you all the time until it's possible. Do you like having your Treo and everpresent access to PIM, email, photos, Word files, PDF files, passwords, financial information, Excel files, MP3, videos, etc? How much better would it be to have non-compromised Windows desktop applications + data with you at all time and with a readable screen? Windows micro laptops/palmtops are the next quantum leap forward in mobile computing. Get on board or prepare to be run over.

A smartphone can go places a laptop can't. It's cheaper, easier to carry, will hopefully have a better battery life and (depending on your needs) is simply more convenient. Both have their uses.

True, but the small screen size and inability to run Real Windows applications means smartphones are a poor compromise for those interested in mobile computing.

Why do people insist on comparing the two anyway? Both are computers and that's pretty much all they have in common.

Because comparing is what people do.

TVoR

RE: Smartphones are DEAD. And so is Palm. DEAD. DEAD. DEAD.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2006 2:16:48 PM # Q
Who, really, is going to try and replace a laptop with a smartphone? Nobody, of course.

Actually, I've met quite a few who have done that. I tried it myself with a CLIE UX50 and if the UX50 had a slightly bigger screen I'd probably condider it a reasonable laptop replacement for 90% of the time


But for a lot of people - myself included - a laptop or a UMPC is overkill. Do you really need all that horsepower to access your information on the go? Of course not. Why would you want it, anyway? I realise I'm undermining my geek cred by asking that, but really, I'd just get annoyed at the bulk after the novelty wore off.

Wrong. You don't appreciate having all your info with you all the time until it's possible. Do you like having your Treo and everpresent access to PIM, email, photos, Word files, PDF files, passwords, financial information, Excel files, MP3, videos, etc? How much better would it be to have non-compromised Windows desktop applications + data with you at all time and with a readable screen? Windows micro laptops/palmtops are the next quantum leap forward in mobile computing. Get on board or prepare to be run over.

A smartphone can go places a laptop can't. It's cheaper, easier to carry, will hopefully have a better battery life and (depending on your needs) is simply more convenient. Both have their uses.

True, but the small screen size and inability to run Real Windows applications means smartphones are a poor compromise for those interested in mobile computing.

Why do people insist on comparing the two anyway? Both are computers and that's pretty much all they have in common.

Because comparing is what people do.

TVoR

Reply to this comment

W.r.t. PALM's future, another Director on the Board

SeldomVisitor @ 7/26/2006 5:27:01 PM # Q
PALM gave a bunch of options or stock to and retained William Coleman as a Director on their Board - filed the filings at least but no PR yet. They had to create a new Director slot to do so which seems kind of unusual to me...but I'm paranoid.

William (nee Bill) Coleman remains a Wall Street darling - co-founder of BEA Systems, for example.

I wonder why he was added to the Board, though - what is afoot!?

Whatta game.

Sign Shatner!!!
Gekko @ 7/26/2006 6:11:46 PM # Q

Giving options to William *Shatner* would have been a better choice. He could have done some commercials for them! Sign him before Motorola or HP get him!!!!!!!! Who better to shill for the Treo than Kirk himself???!!!



RE: W.r.t. PALM's future, another Director on the Board
cervezas @ 7/26/2006 7:09:53 PM # Q
SeldomVisitor wrote:
William (nee Bill) Coleman ... co-founder of BEA Systems... I wonder why he was added to the Board, though - what is afoot!?

Hmmm. Heavy hitter in server side Java.

See #2 and #3 in this article for my earlier speculation on Palm's renewed server-side plans: http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8551/palms-open-secrets-exposed/



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: W.r.t. PALM's future, another Director on the Board
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/26/2006 7:10:26 PM # Q




PALM = SOLD
RE: W.r.t. PALM's future, another Director on the Board
SeldomVisitor @ 7/26/2006 7:29:04 PM # Q
Perhaps, but I'm head-scratching about ADDING a Director ==position== just prior to doing so!

Perhaps it's a "move up" position?...

RE: W.r.t. PALM's future, another Director on the Board
cervezas @ 7/26/2006 7:49:53 PM # Q
Bill Coleman's current baby: http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jan2005/tc2005014_7086.htm

So yeah, it's *very* interesting that a guy who's all about web services and how "the network is the computer" has had a new position created for him on Palm's board.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: W.r.t. PALM's future, another Director on the Board
Gekko @ 7/26/2006 9:24:22 PM # Q

just another has-been added to the bloat diluting more shareholder value.

don't read too much into this one, kids.


Reply to this comment

Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!

Surur @ 7/27/2006 11:30:21 AM # Q
[quote]64-bit Vista compatability was one of the reasons I switched to a Sprint PPC-6700. Compatability with Office 2007 was another.[/quote)0
http://treo.discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=120913

I guess I should not have been surprised. He has flip-flopped between the two OS's for ages, but just earlier this year he was extolling the virtues and wonders of the Treo 650, and could not wait for the 700p.

Anyway, that explains his silence all these months. I guess next week he will start kirvining on the PPC side (but hey!, thats my job!!)

Surur

PS: for those who dont know what kirvining means.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kirvin

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
Foo Fighter @ 7/27/2006 12:33:06 PM # Q
Good lord. His flip flopping between platforms is even more schizophrenic than mine. I hope he likes his 6700 because I wasn't impressed with it. After owning the Nokia E61 for more than two weeks now, I am in love with the device but at the same time beginning to pine for all my favorite Palm/PPC software like AvantGo, eReader, iSilo, TealDoc (God what a dated looking application), HandBase, TCPMP, Agendus, RSS readers, etc. One nice thing about the E61 is that it comes with so much useful software out of the box that you find very little lacking that isn't offered. The Symbian Web Browser is the best mobile browser on any platform, in fact it's actually based on Apple's Safari browser, or rather it's core rendering engine (WebKit).

Right now I'm half tempted to adopt a Windows Mobile phone myself, but there just aren't any options on the market right now to lure me away. I dislike the HTC Apache/Wizard clones because of the clunky designs and bulky form factors. The Moto Q doesn't have WiFi (a make or break feature for me) and runs WinMob Smartphone, the greater of two evils. So what's left for me? The HTC Prophet devices (iMate JAMin)? Not very tempting. The upcoming Hermes is a real puzzler, as it differs so little from the Apache/Wizard series it makes one wonder why HTC even bothered developing this model.

Perhaps I'll wait around for the Treo Lennon..but do I really want a puny 240x240 screen? I think not. *sigh*

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
mikecane @ 7/27/2006 1:09:24 PM # Q
You guys should look up "stalker."

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
Foo Fighter @ 7/27/2006 1:14:47 PM # Q
I'm not the one who started this thread.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
mikecane @ 7/27/2006 1:58:46 PM # Q
Guilt by association.

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
jkirvin @ 7/27/2006 2:02:39 PM # Q
Cane just informed me of this. Don't you guys have anything better to do?

Not that should matter to any of you, but I switched because the 6700 fits my current needs (syncing with Vista 64 and Office 2007) better than the Treo. I also like the roomier keyboard and larger if lower-res screen.

It's called being open-minded. Try it some time.

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
mikecane @ 7/27/2006 2:08:06 PM # Q
>>>Cane just informed me of this.

That's right. I ratted you out. Got a problem with that?

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
Foo Fighter @ 7/27/2006 2:20:24 PM # Q
My only interest in this thread was the device Jeff chose, which I think is among the least impressive of all WinMob Smartphones. But then again, show me one that is...aside from perhaps the Q. Besides, I'm not faulting him for "switching" because I happen to be just as bad staying planted on any one platform. Which is why I own just about every bloody platform under the sun...including Sun!

>> "It's called being open-minded. Try it some time."

Thanks for the advice Jeff. I'll try to be more open minded about technology in the future. *As I sit here surrounded by Windows Mobile, PalmOS, Symbian, Blackberry, MotorolaOS mobile devices...attached to desktops running Windows, OSX, Linux, and Solaris operating systems.*



-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
jkirvin @ 7/27/2006 3:16:07 PM # Q
Thus spake Kent:

"Good lord. His flip flopping between platforms is even more schizophrenic than mine."

And...

"As I sit here surrounded by Windows Mobile, PalmOS, Symbian, Blackberry, MotorolaOS mobile devices...attached to desktops running Windows, OSX, Linux, and Solaris operating systems."

Kent, you call *me* schizophrenic?

Or is it that even when you don't have a leg to stand on, you just can't resist taking a swing at me?

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
Surur @ 7/27/2006 3:21:59 PM # Q
Actually, as the thread started, I think its hugely significant, due to Jeff's profile, if nothing else. Its still very common to see people pining for Jeff and his fire and brimstone over at 1src.com. Morale is low already. I dont think they will take this news very well at all.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
jkirvin @ 7/27/2006 4:20:52 PM # Q
They already know. I disclosed my new device on a 1SRC chat several weeks ago. And when I laid out my reasons (again, Vista 64 and Office 2007 syncing), they coudln't fault me. Even Alan took it in stride.

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
Surur @ 7/27/2006 5:12:29 PM # Q

Well, as a former Palm user, you find yourself in good company. Shadowmite himself has abandoned POS for a ppc-6700. Now we just need Tyler and the trifecta would be complete, and the worl will end :)

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
mikecane @ 7/27/2006 8:23:56 PM # Q
Feh. Still using POS.

Although it is now an ancient CLIE S320 (ah, the Joy of Hacks! Something Colligan will never grok...)

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
Surur @ 7/27/2006 8:36:00 PM # Q
I thought you were using a UMPC or that new Sony?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/27/2006 10:54:28 PM # Q
jkirvin @ 7/27/2006 2:02:39 PM #

Cane just informed me of this.


Did he roll over and whisper it into your ear?




TVoR

Sony CLIE S320 Vs. any 2006 PalmOS PDA. Who wins???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/27/2006 11:01:28 PM # Q
Still using POS.

Although it is now an ancient CLIE S320

As I said before, Cane will NEVER buy (and keep) another new PalmOS device. Never. He uses a 7 year old Sony CLIE, yet constantly biotches and moans trying to find any excuse not to upgrade. Isn't it bizarre that none of the hundred or so PalmOS devices released since the CLIE S320 were able convince someone so fanatical about PalmOS to upgrade? Hmmm... Sounds like Cane is full of ****. And iPoo.


TVoR


RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
naio21 @ 7/28/2006 12:32:24 AM # Q
Will after this revelation "Dr. Opinion" vanish into oblivion or is he a real guy? :-O

Ivan
RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
mikecane @ 7/28/2006 12:02:02 PM # Q
Leave it up to VoR to spew his filth over PIC. No disappointment there.

No UMPC yet. I do have that abysmal Nokia 770. Haven't bothered to update the OS. Don't need the additional trauma.

Jeff Kirvin/Dr Opinion: Clueless in Denver
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2006 12:27:14 PM # Q
Will after this revelation "Dr. Opinion" vanish into oblivion or is he a real guy? :-O

After all the "Kirvining" we've seen over the years, I think people finally realize how clueless the guy is.

TVoR

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
mikecane @ 7/28/2006 12:39:45 PM # Q
Like no one has caught onto YOU? Still a coward who won't use his real name. How are the wife and kiddies, by the way?

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
cervezas @ 7/28/2006 1:23:29 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Isn't it bizarre that none of the hundred or so PalmOS devices released since the CLIE S320 were able convince someone so fanatical about PalmOS to upgrade?

Rich words coming from someone who continuously extolls the virtues of a 3 1/2 year-old phone that runs a 5 1/2 year-old version of Palm OS (Samsung SPH-i500). If the upgrade path is so great, Missy, what's your excuse?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Caney: when someone biotch slaps you... STAY DOWN.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2006 1:50:04 PM # Q
Like no one has caught onto YOU? Still a coward who won't use his real name. How are the wife and kiddies, by the way?

Nice to see you're as dull as ever.

TVoR

Beersy got p0wn3d (again)...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2006 1:56:02 PM # Q
>>>TVoR wrote:
Isn't it bizarre that none of the hundred or so PalmOS devices released since the CLIE S320 were able convince someone so fanatical about PalmOS to upgrade?

Rich words coming from someone who continuously extolls the virtues of a 3 1/2 year-old phone that runs a 5 1/2 year-old version of Palm OS (Samsung SPH-i500). If the upgrade path is so great, Missy, what's your excuse?


Beersy, why do you keep setting yourself up to get biotchslapped (even more) senseless? As someone who also "extolls the virtues of a 3 1/2 year-old phone that runs a 5 1/2 year-old version of Palm OS (Samsung SPH-i500)" YOU know as well as I do that the i500 is the best realization of a smartPHONE to date. No other PalmOS smartphone comes close to the i500 for users seeking reliability, build quality, small size and voice quality. Plus it has the flip phone design that obviates the need for a case. If Samsung - or anyone else - brought out a newer phone with similar features I would be the first to buy one. But the i550 was delayed and eventually cancelled by Sprint and no other PalmOS licensees will be bringing out any similar phones in the near future. In fact, there probably will NEVER be another PalmOS smartphone as well-made as the i500. Which is precisely why I bought several of them when Sprint was blowing them out for $300 last year.

And you should know better than to challenge me on device history, Beersy. My current stable includes several of each of these models:

CLIE VZ90
CLIE TH55 (Euro version)
CLIE UX50
Handera 330
TRGpro

+ multiple older CLIEs and Palms.

Have a seat. Biotch.


TVoR

Thanks for making my point
cervezas @ 7/28/2006 2:50:28 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
YOU know as well as I do that the i500 is the best realization of a smartPHONE to date.

Thanks for making my point--and making yourself look like an idiot. That point being (since you apparently missed it) that you don't need the latest hardware or OS to have the best hardware and OS for the job.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Beersy are you REALLY that dull? (Sorry if you are. Really.)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2006 3:22:48 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
>>>YOU know as well as I do that the i500 is the best
>>>realization of a smartPHONE to date.

Thanks for making my point--and making yourself look like an idiot. That point being (since you apparently missed it) that you don't need the latest hardware or OS to have the best hardware and OS for the job.

Beersy, you seem incapable of understanding that the fact that no one has topped a 3 year old design merely shows how pathetic the competition has been in the smartphone world. Nokia, Sony Ericsson et. al. should have models out that blow the i500 out of the water by now. But they don't. I've posted elsewhere that the reason for the dearth of good smartphones is because they are irrelevant to marketplace. The category has suffered from benign neglect.

Featurephones killed the smartphone star™.


TVoR

Sorry, Beersy but the only one looking like an idiot is the person waiting for you in the mirror. Run to him. Now.

TVoR

RE: Hell just froze over!!! Jeff Kirvin uses a PPC-6700!!!!!!
cervezas @ 7/28/2006 5:14:15 PM # Q
TVoR wrote, in his usual gracious manner:
Beersy, you seem incapable of understanding that the fact that no one has topped a 3 year old design merely shows how pathetic the competition has been in the smartphone world.

I'm well aware of that and you, madam, are changing the subject. Did you think we'd all be too stupid to notice?

As I said, thanks for making my point that mobile OS technology hasn't advanced enough to make you, me, or Mike Cane an idiot for sticking with the old technology. 'Course you're an idiot for other reasons, don't get me wrong! :-)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Beersy, must we spell it out for you? Wow you really are clueless
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2006 6:01:12 PM # Q
As I said, thanks for making my point that mobile OS technology hasn't advanced enough to make you, me, or Mike Cane an idiot for sticking with the old technology.

Beersy, the technology HAS advanced. It's a question of whether or not consumers (or carriers) want the new tech.

Mike Cane is (either voluntarily or due to finances) using a 7 year old monochrome Sony CLIE S320. Compare that to a color OLED-screened, CompactFlash + Memory Stick slotted, Wi-Fi enabled CLIE VZ90. Or a Bluetooth + Wi-Fi enabled, color-screened CLIE TH55. Or a magnesium clamshelled, keyboard-containing, Bluetooth + Wi-Fi enabled, color-screened CLIE UX50. Are you arguing that those models are no more advanced than the ancient CLIE S320? Wow, you really are clueless.

Compared to the Samsung i500, the i550 had an SD slot, more memory, better screen, MP3 player, external display, etc, etc and could have been released in 2004 or early 2005 if Sprint had wanted it. Is that model not more "advanced" than the i500? Wow, you really are clueless.

Since you seem to be struggling so badly I'll stop biotchslapping you for now, Beersy. Just S T F U.

TVoR

Very good, Missy!
cervezas @ 7/28/2006 6:54:51 PM # Q
So the technology is more advanced but the i500 is still "the best realization of a smartPHONE to date." Which is just you agreeing with my original point: advances notwithstanding, the devices you, me, and Mike Cane find best for our purposes are not the most advanced ones.

Now, was that so hard?

It's ok. I'm through playing with you now.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

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