MobileInfocenter

Comments on: Editorial: iPhone or iClone?

Apple iPhone vs Palm TreoHow to define a surprise that isn't? Rumours have been floating around for years, but Apple finally laid them to rest today when they announced the long-awaited iPhone. It's a svelte, sexy little smartphone, with an impressively long spec sheet and unique new gesture-based touch controls, that appears to have ripped more than a few pages out of the Treo's playbook.

So, the big question: how do our beloved Treos stack up against this uber-machine? Is Palm dead and buried? Will this strange rash on my inner thigh go away with the liberal application of moisturising products, or should I try a heavy-duty burn ointment? [note: edit that last sentence out. I don't want to be seen as a shill for moisturising companies] Let's take a blowtorch to the hype. Read on for PIC's in-depth analysis...

Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (157 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Start a new Comment Down

Definitely wifi

BaalthazaaR @ 1/10/2007 1:41:12 PM # Q
Palm has always been behind the ball with that one... I'd go for two devices if they had a PDA that had the speeds of 802.11g... in fact I'm still considering going with two devices and getting a new TX even though they only have the old 802.11b standard... I've been waiting for palm to get off their posteriors and come out with a big jump instead of the screwball incremental refreshes that leave them in the same place as before.
RE: Definitely wifi
jfme @ 1/10/2007 2:12:43 PM # Q
Support of Palm's OWN SD Wi-Fi card is the start. The "marketing analysis" theory that certain carrier does not want Wi-FI support in favor of data plans fell on its own face as of Yesterday.

Not only the iPhone will have Wi-Fi but it will automatically switch from data plan depending on which connection is the fastest. Wow....can you say consumer wins all around!!!

RE: Definitely wifi
BaalthazaaR @ 1/10/2007 2:46:01 PM # Q

The "marketing analysis" theory that certain carrier does not want Wi-FI support in favor of data plans fell on its own face as of Yesterday.

That "analysis" or "theory" (more accurately BS) was always debunked... all the US carriers have always had at least a couple of phones that had Wi-Fi. Unfortunately for me they were all running Macroshaft's winDOHs mobile_bloatware.

RE: Definitely wifi
Alfa @ 1/11/2007 1:14:41 PM # Q
Treo needs built-in wifi b/g especially now that there are 3 Voip programs for Palm OS.
Treo + wifi + voip program would be fantastic especially for people traveling a lot.
Wake up Palm! Give us a Treo with wifi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bring the Cobalt back!
uuhh @ 1/15/2007 5:18:53 PM # Q
Stop that Ubuntu porting madness !
All, that iPhone can do now, Cobalt did in 2004

Reply to this comment

Not a Treo killer yet.

xImtc @ 1/10/2007 1:42:37 PM # Q
No gimme my keyboard. No getta my Treo.

RE: Not a Treo killer yet.
BaalthazaaR @ 1/10/2007 1:49:26 PM # Q
No gimme my keyboard. No getta my Treo.

Actually I don't feel that the keyboard is that critical... or maybe it is because every now and then I find myself writing on paper with Grafitti 1 strokes.

RE: Not a Treo killer yet.
LiveFaith @ 1/10/2007 5:02:12 PM # Q
#2 #2 #2 #2 #2 #2 ... Treo 800 please!!!!

Pat Horne
RE: Not a Treo killer yet.
buckeyetex315-2 @ 1/10/2007 5:21:49 PM # Q

LiveFaith wrote:
... Treo 800 please!!!!

LiveFaith -
Do you have a picture of your "mythical" Treo 800 posted somewhere? From reading the PIC board I think it is a TX based phone. Would love to see a pic.

Brent


Palm Vx -----> LONG WAIT -----> Palm T|X

RE: Not a Treo killer yet.
LiveFaith @ 1/10/2007 10:01:39 PM # Q
RE: Not a Treo killer yet.
ggeoffre @ 1/10/2007 11:18:47 PM # Q
I was once a very proficient graffiti tapper, and now I am happily all thumbs. Not quite sure how things will work out with no stylus, no graffiti of any sort, and no thumb board. The one thing we did not see at all was 'massive' data inputs like with a word/text application. The expectation with the iPhone may be that the majority of edits will take place on the Mac (PC), and not on the iPhone itself.
RE: Not a Treo killer yet.
buckeyetex315-2 @ 1/11/2007 6:42:49 PM # Q

Thanks, LiveFaith. Let us know when your website is up again so we can see the larger picture.

Brent

Palm Vx -----> LONG WAIT -----> Palm T|X

Reply to this comment

Treo vs. iPhone

dennitzio @ 1/10/2007 1:48:49 PM # Q
I think you make some decent points, but I'd say that the Treo is the severely compromised unit. What I've always wanted is a real Palm - something like a T3 or Lifedrive - with phone capabilities. Palm's out of the box software sucks donkey, but third parties have made up for a lot of that. I make up for a lack of iPod capabilities by owning an iPod. Since the new iPhone doesn't come with decent storage, I'm still stuck with my iPod.

If Palm wanted to outdo the iPhone, give the LifeDrive a phone unit, a large hard drive (>60gb), and decent software. That's where Apple excels - great, easy-to-use, intuitive software that wasn't designed for the ease of the engineer making it.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
dennitzio @ 1/10/2007 1:57:08 PM # Q
Oh, as for cribbing the Treo, consider that the iPod, the Macintosh, even the Apple ][ weren't original. There already were MP3 players, graphic computers (well, not publicly), and personal computers (PET!). But Apple simply did them better than anyone else. Especially recently with the iPod, where they haven't screwed up their market lead. There were programs like iPhoto, iTunes, iDVD, etc... But again, no one did them as well as Apple did. Call it a Bionic version of a clone, if you must.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
freakout @ 1/10/2007 6:19:19 PM # Q
I think you make some decent points, but I'd say that the Treo is the severely compromised unit.

Don't let Apple's glossy graphics blind you to the fact that apart from the web browser and (admittedly quite cool) sensors, there's really nothing new in the iPhone. Given that the Treo 680 is $300 cheaper than the iPhone I'd hardly call it "severely compromised" - you can do pretty much anything that you could do on an iPhone on a Treo with the bonus of real, physical buttons. It may not be as pretty but Palm have long been saying they're after substance, not style.

Plus, there's still a big question mark hanging over the iPhone battery life. Such a thin device running three different radios and a huge screen... 5 hours seems laughably optimistic.

If Palm wanted to outdo the iPhone, give the LifeDrive a phone unit, a large hard drive (>60gb), and decent software.

I agree, although we might want to pick a product a little less loathed by Palm fans than the Lifedrive. ;)

That's where Apple excels - great, easy-to-use, intuitive software that wasn't designed for the ease of the engineer making it.

Actually, this is where Palm excels as well. PalmOS has survived all these years not on the strength of its features or its looks, but rather that it is just so damn easy to learn and use. PalmOS routinely tops user satisfaction surveys and they're market leaders for a reason.

I think the real force behind iPhone will be the iTunes syncing - as Jobs pointed out, people have gotten used to doing it with the iPod. It's familiar and looks nice. I know I've become addicted to having all my phone information available on my PC.


Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
ggeoffre @ 1/10/2007 11:23:45 PM # Q
There is nothing about being revolutionary that requires one to also be original or the first to market. The revolution will come in the form of strategic partnerships to accomplish some technical advancement that no one company could do on their own. Like the relationship with Yahoo for free push mail, and the relationship with Cingular for dynamic access to voice mail. What will be interesting is to see what additional partnerships and technical advances (small or large) will ignite from this revolutionary spark.
RE: Treo vs. iPhone
moofie @ 1/11/2007 1:13:15 AM # Q
"It may not be as pretty but Palm have long been saying they're after substance, not style."

Hey, I've got an idea, Palm. How about you stop worrying about style AND substance, and get your act together with STABILITY. Then try style and/or substance.

I just got a Treo 700p. The iPhone isn't /quite/ hot enough to make me drop the Treo in June, but I'm pretty confident the 2nd gen iPhone will be even better.

I figure Palm has right about a year to get their ship in order, or I'll drop them and never look back. Looking at their track record for the last three years, I have a pretty good guess as to what's going to happen.

The iPhone doesn't need a 40 gb hard drive or a 3g data connection to kill everything else in its market. It just needs to work elegantly. The Treo works. Sorta. Unless your bluetooth headset is on the other side of your body from the phone, or you need to look in your notes database to get an account number and fumble back to the phone app to type it in, or find the one feature that you really really CAN'T access without digging the stylus out of the sheath.

The visual voice mail feature should have been standard with every mobile phone ever. Linear, audio-based voice mail is stupid. Why did it take Apple to force this change?

I don't believe for a second that Apple is going to lock developers out of the phone. I would ABSOLUTELY believe that Cingular would lock developers out of the phone. That, right there, is the one big question left in my mind. How much of a screwing am I going to have to take from Cingular?

(Unlimited data? How much? Phone as modem? How much?)

We'll see. Palm needs to get moving.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
freakout @ 1/11/2007 1:27:16 AM # Q
ggeoffre:
There is nothing about being revolutionary that requires one to also be original or the first to market. The revolution will come in the form of strategic partnerships to accomplish some technical advancement that no one company could do on their own. Like the relationship with Yahoo for free push mail, and the relationship with Cingular for dynamic access to voice mail. What will be interesting is to see what additional partnerships and technical advances (small or large) will ignite from this revolutionary spark.

Apple aren't the only ones to partner with other companies dude; see Palm's inclusion of Yahoo! Music with the 680, or Google Maps, or the on-screen voicemail controls on the 700wx/750. Apple are just better at getting the attention, which is admittedly a very important aspect.

I too am looking forward to further partnerships between gadget makers and the big tech companies.

moofie:
Hey, I've got an idea, Palm. How about you stop worrying about style AND substance, and get your act together with STABILITY. Then try style and/or substance.

You want a Treo 680. Rock-solid.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
Iphonefanatic @ 1/11/2007 2:22:54 AM # Q
"It may not be as pretty but Palm have long been saying they're after substance, not style."

I do think that style points was what made the Treo 600 (and subsequent Treos) successful. Treos, apart from the keyboard and cellular access differ very little from current Palm PDAs, such as the LifeDrive or the T/X, which sometimes even have additional features than Treos (such as a hard drive or Wi-Fi). Treos are very easy to handle, enable one-handed navigation, and offer (unintentionally) a higher res screen than Palm PDAs due to the tighter pixellation. Everything else is pretty much the same as a Tungsten X/Lifedrive except for a smaller body and cellular radio.

If:
- the Mac OS X implementation on the iPhone isn't crash prone,
- the iPhone provides average to above average battery life
- the Safari browser can support plug-ins
- and if everything else works the way it should...

...every other cell phone manufacturer is in some real trouble. If the iPhone works the way it should, the implementation of a robust OS in a mobile device with a stunning GUI makes other devices look like toys, and it will make UMPCs look clunky and overpriced.

I personally don't think the iPhone is overpriced, when Treo 650s are still being sold at $400+ unlocked (and $400+ for unlocked 680s - the supposed 'budget Treo'). What you get is a real OS, a real iPod video/audio player and most of all, a near-desktop computing experience in a 3.5 inch device. This is what the Zaurus could have been.

Then again, buggy execution will destroy this dream.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
freakout @ 1/11/2007 3:23:20 AM # Q
I personally don't think the iPhone is overpriced, when Treo 650s are still being sold at $400+ unlocked (and $400+ for unlocked 680s - the supposed 'budget Treo').

A more accurate comparison is the $199 Treo 680, with 2-year contract, vs. $499 for the iPhone, with 2-year contract.

I agree with your other points though.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
jfme @ 1/11/2007 7:11:47 AM # Q
"A more accurate comparison is the $199 Treo 680, with 2-year contract, vs. $499 for the iPhone, with 2-year contract."

Treo 680 $199
Wi-Fi Sled $150
4 GB SD $100
------------------
Total $449

For what you get in the iPhone, the price is competitive.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
freakout @ 1/11/2007 8:13:35 AM # Q
Try $50 for that 4GB SD, and did you notice your total price was still cheaper than the iPhone? ;)
RE: Treo vs. iPhone
SeldomVisitor @ 1/11/2007 8:17:48 AM # Q
> ...The visual voice mail feature should have been standard
> with every mobile phone ever...

That feature of the "iPhone" is actually a feature of the iPhone's service from Cingular - they "collaborated" on that, among other things (like "triangulation" - cell-based GPS-like location tracking).

See the very well done keynote presentation (I'd recommend everyone watch that not only to see what is shown but to see what isn't shown - like applications - maybe not enough time? Uh huh...) on Apple's site.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
ChiA @ 1/11/2007 8:28:20 AM # Q
Try $50 for that 4GB SD, and did you notice your total price was still cheaper than the iPhone?

Not when you add a 2 megapixel to compensate for the Treo 680's VGA camera.

RE: Treo vs. iPhone
jfme @ 1/11/2007 8:43:12 AM # Q
>>Try $50 for that 4GB SD, and did you notice your total price was still cheaper than the iPhone?

>Not when you add a 2 megapixel to compensate for the Treo 680's VGA camera.

And a larger screen, and iTunes out of the box, and a new updated OS, and the cost of the backpack you would need to carry such brick (treo+sled) and accessories together... I think that would make the Treo over $700 in Palm dollars.



Reply to this comment

apples vs. oranges

jakemonO @ 1/10/2007 3:08:13 PM # Q
how many people who need what a smartphone provides: Messaging, light browsing, specific apps, will actually be enticed by an Phone? Sure its sexy, but what it is is a media device with voice capablilites, not a messaging tool. As a platform, though, it may show the most potential for growth and adoptability (pending a deeperre review of hardware and sotware)

RE: apples vs. oranges
LiveFaith @ 1/10/2007 10:02:26 PM # Q
Interesting title considering this is an Apple vs "Orange" Palm battle.

Pat Horne
RE: apples vs. oranges
ggeoffre @ 1/11/2007 12:01:51 AM # Q
Ask the same question from the opposite angle, how many people cary around both a 'basic' cell phone and any iPod would be interested in some additional smart phone capabilities? I do not think that this was meant to be a smart phone killer. In the keynote, Steve mentioned several times over how Cingular is the largest cell phone company, and how Yahoo is the largest e-mail provider, and how iPod has the largest market share for MP3s, and how he intends to sell 10 million iPhones. Cingular is looking that the massive iPod population and hoping to grow its business rather than offer a new phone option to existing smart phone customers. How many more Sprint customers will jump ship and upgrade their current iPod to an iPhone?

Sprint Nextel Will Layoff 5,000 After Loss Of Subscribers
http://www.informationweek.com/hardware/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196802283

Reply to this comment

Applications?

feranick @ 1/10/2007 2:00:42 PM # Q
If I am not mistaken, addition of new software is going to be very limited. Either you will not be able, or you will only be able to get it from Cingular. Jobs justify that in terms of security, for the user and for the Cingular network.

To me that would cripple significantly the device, and would frustrate much of the power users. Palm has a huge advantage on this as much software can be obtained from third-parties

What is the advantage of having OSX if you can't fully use the Unix foundation (shell for example)?

Any comments?

RE: Applications?
Ryan @ 1/10/2007 8:09:18 PM # Q
Gizmodo is reporting that like the iPod, the iPhone will be closed platform.

http://tinyurl.com/ygjhfg

This would be a tragedy if true - as a device like this screams out for additional software and utilities.

RE: Applications?
ggeoffre @ 1/10/2007 11:28:32 PM # Q
What was also interesting was the lack of video games on this new generation iPod like those that the new 5G iPods now support. Adding to the perception that even iTunes will not be able to add any sort of new apps to the device.
No third-party software allowed
feranick @ 1/12/2007 1:11:43 PM # Q
It doesn't even run OSX
feranick @ 1/13/2007 5:37:21 PM # Q
From here:

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/13/1746234

"We know that Steve Jobs has said the iPhone won't accept third-party apps.
The iPhone looks to be running on a Samsung provided ARM core processor. That means it's not running on an Intel (or PPC) core. That means it's not running OS X in any meaningful sense (Apple can brand toilet paper as running OS X if they like). Darwin, the BSD based operating system that underlies what Apple has previously been calling OS X, does not run on ARM processors. The Darwin / Apple Public Source licensing agreement says the source would have to be made available if it is modified and sold (paraphrased; read it yourself). A Cingular rep has said the iPhone version of the OS source will not be made available. It will be closed, like the iPod OS and not like Darwin. So if it ain't Darwin, it ain't OS X (in any meaningful way). An InfoWorld article on an FBR Research report breaks down iPhone component providers and lists Samsung as the chip maker for the main application / video cpu. So, that leaves the question... What OS is this phone really running? Not Linux or the source would need to be open."

Reply to this comment

iTreo

benway88 @ 1/10/2007 3:17:50 PM # Q
I can't emphasize enough the multi-tasking capabilities of the iPhone, compared to the Treo which is prehistoric. There is no answer for this from Palm / Access for the foreseeable future. Spending 5 minutes looking up a web link on the Palm, and then losing it completely by having to look at something else or receive a call is simply torture. But we are the consumers of a company that sold out its braintrust for profit, the Palm OS, and we're all suffering with the frozen Treo OS because of it.

The iPhone is the new video iPod, and it's a smartphone. If you own an iPod, then you may as well upgrade everything to this. The Treo converged three things, the iPhone does same and brings in the iPod. Palm could suffer here, especially if Apple begins to eye the lower priced market.

Scrolling for contacts on the iPhone will be tedious, but iPhone owners may just exist in ignorant bliss. Treo owners have the superior Phone solution for the past 6 years and it continues almost unchanged from the Handspring era.

MS Office on the Treo is killer. But the widgets capabilities on the iPhone opens up possibilities when regular users become widget creators in the forthcoming Mac OS.

RE: iTreo
LiveFaith @ 1/10/2007 5:06:00 PM # Q
Ironically, I can't quite thinking about how Palm and Apple shadow the days of the phenominal innovative Newton, and the little Pilot that could. Palm's weaker products dusted them then.

Could it happen again? The economics look similar at $499 & $599 w/contract price points.

Pat Horne

RE: iTreo
freakout @ 1/10/2007 6:51:24 PM # Q
^^ That's a very good point...
RE: iTreo
ggeoffre @ 1/10/2007 11:31:45 PM # Q
Palm is already suffering in one way at least...

"Apple shares jumped $7.10 to close at $92.57 on the Nasdaq Stock Market. The stock has traded in a 52-week range of $50.16 to $93.16. Nearly 120 million Apple shares were traded on Tuesday, more than four times the average daily volume. Meanwhile, shares of other smart-phone makers slid: Treo-maker Palm dropped 5.7 percent, BlackBerry's Research In Motion Ltd. lost 7.9 percent and Motorola Inc. shed 1.8 percent."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/10/ap/business/mainD8MI3JRO0.shtml


RE: iTreo
freakout @ 1/11/2007 1:35:25 AM # Q
That was to be expected - the real question is whether or not they'll go back up again once the hoopla is over...
RE: iTreo
Iphonefanatic @ 1/11/2007 2:34:19 AM # Q
I think that if the iPhone can replicate a desktop computing experience on a mobile platform, then Palm and Windows Mobile will fall by the wayside. Newer Nokia devices would be the closest competitor, but even they look prehistoric compared to the iPhone.

Basically, if you add a Bluetooth keyboard to the iPhone, you theoretically get a laptop/UMPC. If you add a keyboard to a Palm device, you get a word processor at best.

But these are just assumptions on my part on a device which hasn't been tested yet. I could be wrong.

I'm not familiar with the Newton debacle, but if anyone could provide any parallels or insight into a comparison between the iPhone and Newton, it would be appreciated.

Reply to this comment

How Can Palm Compete?

mikecane @ 1/10/2007 3:45:27 PM # Q
For my personal money, they can't. I want the iPhone. I passed on the Treo 680 -- which looks more like a quaint antique with each passing second...

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
e_tellurian @ 1/10/2007 3:56:17 PM # Q
With innovative thoughts that have given much work to many critics.

E-T

e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
Gekko @ 1/10/2007 3:57:04 PM # Q

if the 680 is an antique, what is your new LifeDrive?

stop being penny wise, pound foolish. rather than buy a bunch of cheap antiques, why not save up your money for a modern, revolutionary device like this iphone? this iPhone WIFI and full/real-browser setup will do you right on the mean streets of NYC.



RE: How Can Palm Compete?
freakout @ 1/10/2007 6:46:09 PM # Q
For my personal money, they can't. I want the iPhone. I passed on the Treo 680 -- which looks more like a quaint antique with each passing second...

But only superficially. Watching the keynote it really is quite striking how similar Apple's call management and Contacts look to Palm's implementation.

And as I noted in the editorial, I'm very skeptical of Apple's battery life claims. You've noted yourself that the Nokia Linux tablet was a pitiful performer in battery life Mike. iPhone will have an even smaller battery, yet needs to hold up three radios, a big screen, three different sensors, and a complex OS. Only 11.6mm thick... there's got to be some compromises in there.

Apple's power management is either the best ever, or they're exaggerating when they claim 5 hours of talk/video/web. I don't recall any mention of the standby time either, but I'd hazard a guess it's not even going to come close to the Treo 680, which has a barely acceptable battery life.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
moofie @ 1/11/2007 1:22:04 AM # Q
"Apple's call management and Contacts look to Palm's implementation."

Staggeringly enough, most cars have circular wheels.

Apple's call management looks like a screen with a bunch of buttons of different things you can do with a phone call, kinda like Palm's screen. Apple's Contacts looks like a list of contacts, like Palm's contacts list. Whoa. Copycats.

Tell you what, Palm. You copy the screen and the wifi capabilities, and add bluetooth 2.0, and call it even. Or do what I think you're going to do, and continue to drop the ball.

Ed Colligan is lookin' like a real toolbox right now. He needs to get back to the drawing board, stat. Give the Handspring guys an espresso machine and FIX IT.


RE: How Can Palm Compete?
freakout @ 1/11/2007 1:36:56 AM # Q
^^ Oh puh-lease. The current flagship Treo 680 is a damn good product at a damn good price. It doesn't need fixing; what is needed is a more diversified Treo lineup, and Palm surely know this. It would probably be easy to slap together people's hardware wish lists into a $500 (with contract) Palm just like the iPhone. But Palm've been striving to drive the cost of Treos down because such strastospheric price points limit the market. iPhone like the Treo will be competing with a price point of $0 for a dumbphone. And like Palm, Apple will find it a hard slog. Even with the inevitable "hip" marketing campaign...

Apple's call management looks like a screen with a bunch of buttons of different things you can do with a phone call, kinda like Palm's screen. Apple's Contacts looks like a list of contacts, like Palm's contacts list. Whoa. Copycats.

My point isn't that Apple are thieves (although I'm certain they've been studying the Treo - ringer switch, threaded messaging, easy call conferencing...), it's that all this talk of "revolutionising" the phone is just that. Talk. The reality is that Palm have been doing all the phone features that Apple are now arrogantly claiming as their own for years.

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
twrock @ 1/11/2007 1:58:44 AM # Q
Give the Handspring guys an espresso machine and FIX IT.

Hey, thow in the old HandEra and Tapwave guys and watch out world! Some great stuff came out of those camps.

But I do have to agree more with Tim on this one.

...what is needed is a more diversified Treo lineup, and Palm surely know this.

... and they better deliver it soon.

Incidentally, I'll be very curious as to what having OSX as an OS will be like for the iPhone. If it really can deliver all that power (powerul OS functionality) without using all that power (draining battery power), what about Linux? can anyone offer an info along that line?

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
mikecane @ 1/11/2007 11:10:04 AM # Q
>>>You've noted yourself that the Nokia Linux tablet was a pitiful performer in battery life Mike.

WTF?! You're hallucinating. I never mentioned its battery life. In fact, I should have as the one thing I could *not* complain about. 4 hours of WiFi is damned good in my book. (It's just that it's so effin *slow* that with a *real* device you could do everything in a *half* hour that it'd take a 770 to do in *four*!)

Gekko, I'll be explaining why a LifeDrive at my place. Pop over. But wash first. You remember how to do that, right?

Game over for Palm. As someone else wrote, watch smartphone sales be as flat as a desert floor for the next six months. At least where the iPhone will be available.

My email address is already on the Cingular list.

I really do want Palm's to have a third business and to put out something I *want*. (Other than a 8GB flash-based LifeDrive 2 -- with the OS on a *separate chip*.)

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
hkklife @ 1/11/2007 11:21:55 AM # Q
Two questions for Mike Cane:

1. Is there ANY chance whatsoever you'll be fondling the new Nokia n800 anytime soon?

2. Has your LifeDrive arrived yet? If so has the Microdrive---> 4gb CF card transplant occured yet? Results/impressions?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
mikecane @ 1/11/2007 12:12:43 PM # Q
I have no interest in the N800 or *anything* from Nokia.

The LD has not yet arrived. Still days off.

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
moofie @ 1/11/2007 12:13:10 PM # Q
Freakout, I don't have any idea what keynote you watched, because you're makin' up all sorts of stuff.

Apple is doing what Apple always does: Integrate together ideas that are poorly implemented by others, with a bulletproof UI and excellent design.

That's why I pay them money. I think they do a good job. Palm has had, what? Five years to polish the smartphone? The smartphone I have in my pocket (Treo 700p) does not have five years of polish in it. Couple that with Palm's surrendered to Microsoft, and I've no confidence that they'll be able to stay ahead of Apple.

Colligan was wrong. The "PC guys" (which is a pretty strange appelation for Apple) just kicked down his door, LAPD going into the wrong house style. We'll see what Palm comes back with, but I have no confidence in them. (And I've owned Palms since the III.)

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
SeldomVisitor @ 1/11/2007 12:19:10 PM # Q
> ...We'll see what Palm comes back with...

This afternoon at 16:00 East Coast time they have their first chance to do so in a public forum - the CFO is at an "analyst" presentation:

-- http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_P/threadview?bn=13738&tid=271350&mid=271350

Might not be interesting.

Might be.

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
Eugenia @ 1/11/2007 3:22:33 PM # Q
There is no support for third party applications on the iPhone, not even widgets, as far as some people in the know, say. I think this puts a huge plus to real smartphones rather than the feature-phone iphone that it really is.

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
cervezas @ 1/11/2007 4:03:49 PM # Q
Eugenia wrote:
There is no support for third party applications on the iPhone, not even widgets, as far as some people in the know, say. I think this puts a huge plus to real smartphones rather than the feature-phone iphone that it really is.

In addition to Tim's misgivings about the lack of tactile feedback from an interface with no physical buttons, the fact that the iPhone is emphatically closed is the biggest problem by far. There was no hint that Apple would ever care about anyone adding software to this handset besides Apple. If it were otherwise it would have been awfully strange not to mention it some time during a 2 1/2 hr presentation.

Hard to say which is worse for Palm: an open iPhone would compete more directly with the Treo; but a closed iPhone will send the generation of new smartphone users that Palm and its imitators have been cultivating right back into feature phones. Beautiful, exciting feature phones, but feature phones all the same. I was really hoping that Apple would do for mobile applications what they did for mobile music and introduce the idea of mobile computing to the masses. No one but Palm seems to be seriously interested in the idea that applications are the ultimate form of personalization, which is a damn shame.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
freakout @ 1/11/2007 4:58:01 PM # Q
Freakout, I don't have any idea what keynote you watched, because you're makin' up all sorts of stuff.

Apple is doing what Apple always does: Integrate together ideas that are poorly implemented by others, with a bulletproof UI and excellent design.

I sat through 90 minutes of Apple Culting and it was almost more than I could stand. Jobs got applause just by saying "Isn't this awesome?" I wonder: if he said "You're all mindless zombies! Isn't that cool?" would they have carried him off the stage on their shoulders? To be fair iPhone is an impressive product. But I seriously doubt it will be a Treo replacement, in part due to the apparently closed OS and the lack of real buttons. That's why I felt the editorial was necessary; already, we see websites and news sites all over proclaiming the death of Palm. And iPhone isn't even out for another six months...

I'll say it again: the only truly revolutionary things in the iPhone are the web browsing and solid media integration. Everything else is just hardware and sliding menus. Heck, third-party app mOcean does an incredibly job of emulating the iPod's sliding menus.

It'll be a great personal media player. It'll be a fantastic as a web browser. You probably don't want it as your phone if you're even a moderate user of SMS and email.

Finally: $499. With contract. It will not crush anybody with a price tag like that. And not everybody wants to sync their information with iTunes, IMO a poorly designed piece of rubbish.

(That iPhone screen, by the by, is going to get some major Tunk* on it if you're always using grubby fingers to manipulate it. Stylii aren't just for poking out the eyes of your enemies.)

*Treo Gunk, the layer of grime and filth that builds up over the chassis and screen on a hot day and significantly detracts from the looks.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

Better lay off those magic mushrooms....
freakout @ 1/11/2007 5:10:58 PM # Q
mikecane:
WTF?! You're hallucinating. I never mentioned its battery life.

Ahem. Sorry. Now I'm wondering where I got that from. It has sunk into my head somewhere - almost every thread I read about it winds up mentioning the battery... (wanders off, muttering and scaring passers-by)

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
theog @ 1/11/2007 5:43:03 PM # Q
Moffie,

palm will continue to drop the ball. There is NO innovation from palm these days. As I've said for years (before it was popular to say so), Palm's management is driving them into the ground.

Vote for John Kerry... best man for the job.

Reply to this comment

Tim can you ask these questions of palm directly?

jerz2dc @ 1/10/2007 3:49:19 PM # Q
I'm just wondering if you can get a real answer as to why Palm has not added wifi to the new Treo's? Why haven't they bought the 3rd party applications and try to integrate them together. I currently use my 650 to watch TV shows, and listen to music while I'm in the gym, however the potential of Treo's as multimedia devices has been untapped by nearly every person I have ever met who is not a techie. Palm has had years to address these common sense user issues. You have not calculated the price of a Palm when you include the 3rd party software you inevitable have to purchase to use the Treo as a media device. You also have to calculate the price of having all the software you need in one place that is integrated together. True some of the best programs for the Treo are free tcpmp and iriver to convert videos, but only techies really know about that stuff. The average user who is a non techie really would like to use the Treo for all the things I currently do, but many of them are initimidated and don't care to be bothered with gathering (researching) all the 3rd party apps together and trying to figure them out. One of the sorriest things about the treo is that they can not conveneintly demonstrate in the Palm store how to do all the multimedia stuff this device is capable of doing. Everywhere I go, I know how to do all the video conversion, mp3 conversion, and stereo bluetooth stuff with the treo, but non of the sales reps understand enough or know enough to do these things let alone show others. I have verified this is still the case for the brand new Palm Store here in DC at Union Station. It is a sad thing that Palm doesn't demo these features.

Really when you put the value of having 3 devices in one, the Treo and every other smart phone device falls short. It is definitely worth paying a couple of hundred dollars to have one device than two or three. Really palm should have sponsored a survey of current and new treo user's and then make an effort to implement what user's want.

All my friends love how I use the Treo (amazed at the video's and how clear the music sounds when I hook it up to external speaks or play it in my car). However I don't recommend they get the device because it's not really easy to convert video's and install software on the device. I also don't want to have to support the issues and problems they may have. I'm a help desk computer tech and I'm already the go to guy for all computer issues and if my friends get Treo's that would add to my woes.

It is said that the Treo has basically had a two year+ head start to make this a high end multimedia device and they just sat on it.

Anyways it would be nice if this forum had real responses (not PR) from real techs or people who actually are responsible for the direction palm is going (a Palm Engineer possibly?).

RE: Tim can you ask these questions of palm directly?
hkklife @ 1/10/2007 4:49:18 PM # Q
I'm a ten-year + user of the Palm OS with no ties whatsoever to them or the industry.

That said, here are a handful of answers to your question:


#1. Integrating wi-fi costs $, both from developmental and component costs. Plus the ancillary expenses like a larger battery, new tooling for a thicker form factor etc.
Palm doesn't want to spend ANY more money than they absolutely have to.
This is the primary reason for nearly every complaint that users have voiced over the past decade, starting way back with the original criticisms of why Hawkins omitted an indiglo-style backlight from the original Pilot line.

#2 Wi-fi would require additional OS hackery work (translating into $ expenditure) by Palm. Also having Bluetooth/wi-fi/cellular would possibly require further FrankenGarnet hacking and/or cause even greater Garnet instability issues. Though I must admit, having Bluetooth & wi-fi on simultaneously or EVDO + Bluetooth hasn't caused any major issues (LifeDrive woes aside) on my TX or 700p other than the expected battery drain.

#3 It would irk the carriers (somewhat) and Palm wants to do EVERYTHING possible to stay cozied up to the carriers. Remember, we’re no longer their customers…it’s the carriers who decree EVERYTHING!

#4 Wi-Fi would impact the Treo's already feeble battery life. As Seidio etc. have shown it's easy to make a higher mAh capacity battery in the same formfactor but Palm doesn't want to do that because it costs $ and it might lead to criticisms from users who complain about battery life when they are talking on their Treos while wi-fi is unknowingly still switched on.

#5 Palm has ignored the multimedia aspects of their devices out of arrogance & cheapness. I suspect they don’t want to look like they are trying to copy Apple or Sony Ericsson by appearing like "multimedia toys". But cost/effort/laziness concerns are the main reason you'll probably never see a 320*480 Treo with a 3.5mm stereo headphone jack, A2DP, and 1gb+ of internal flash storage. Palm has most of the existing tech & experience to build something approaching the perfect Treo scattered across its PDA lineup from '03 to '06 (using bits of the current Treos + the TX + the T5 + T3). And the limitations and creakiness of Garnet have NOTHING to do with Palm going the cheap route with shoddy build quality, small capacity batteries, Small Square Screens, no wi-fi etc.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Tim can you ask these questions of palm directly?
freakout @ 1/10/2007 8:18:01 PM # Q
I have always thought Palm needed to capitalize on the Treo's multimedia capabilities. Including pTunes in the Treo is a good start, but I'd take it another step further and add a dedicated "Media" hard button (maybe a musical note over a roll of film or something). Make it perfectly clear to someone looking at this thing that it's not just a phone, but a media player too.

I completely agree about the need to add built-in video support and we need a much better media syncing solution. And for the love of god, we need a 3.5mm audio jack.

I would love to have a direct line to Palm, but time zones mean I have to be up before 8am to catch them during business hours. Also, the only contact number I have available is for the PR people, and we pretty much already know what they're gonna say.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Tim can you ask these questions of palm directly?
atrizzah @ 1/10/2007 8:34:14 PM # Q
Palm Engineers responsible for the direction of the company? Haha

You must not be an engineer

Peace Out
Alan

RE: Tim can you ask these questions of palm directly?
LiveFaith @ 1/10/2007 10:05:00 PM # Q
I heard a rumor that Palm mgmt once met with an Asian company that employed many engineers. That's all I heard.

Pat Horne
RE: Tim can you ask these questions of palm directly?
joad @ 1/13/2007 6:06:06 PM # Q
Train engineers?

Reply to this comment

I think you got it about right..

scstraus2 @ 1/10/2007 4:51:44 PM # Q
Your article may be a bit too hopeful for palm, as the iPhone is sexy in a way that palm can't hope to do with their long legacy of hobbled updates to frankengarnet, but iPhone is not without it's shortcomings:

No real native software ability that I can see, only "widgets", which surely won't be able to have much multimedia or number crunching/ui capability. May never have office applications for this device. I also need a VPN to get to my work email. No real corporate email strategy yet.

No removable battery- not a showstopper but people get angry (look at all the angry iPod posts).

Price is very high. And really all this offers in terms of functionality over a $200 treo 680 is wifi. Technically at least- in terms of user experience it offers a hell of a lot.

Text input won't cut it if you email and call as much as I do.

The phone number scrolling lookup is cute, but I have 4000 contacts, you expect me to scroll all the way to the right one??

Apple's media is a closed garden. I'm not converting all my divx's to h.264 just for this device. Besides not many will fit in just 8gb. And it won't hold all my tunes either.

I have a feeling that one handed use will be a bit tricky. Don't think that you can stretch your thumb all the way to the other side of the screen.

But no matter how you look at it, there's a real market for a good ipod and a good phone in one device, and there's no doubt that this product is that. It's got major sex appeal, and a lot of people will buy it. Just maybe not the power user PDA buyers (yet).

It's going to be an interesting battle.

RE: I think you got it about right..
scstraus2 @ 1/10/2007 5:29:39 PM # Q
Oh, forgot, lack of outlook sync is a real dealbreaker too. And this is something I don't trust from 3rd parties after all the problems I've had with intellisync, the missing sync, etc. I'm not going there again.

RE: I think you got it about right..
arielb @ 1/14/2007 2:29:16 PM # Q
the real deal breaker for me is that the screen is begging to be smudged and scratched by the touch based interface. I'm sorry, I thought iphone looked killer but instead of being a smart phone, it's more like a dumb blond phone.

Reply to this comment

The price of iphone is reasonable

neuron @ 1/10/2007 5:12:07 PM # Q
This device is designed for two hand operations, so please don't mention the one hard operation again and again.

Also considering the price and spec of treo 750, the price of iphone is not expensive at all. Almost all Pocket Pc smartphones are sold at $600~800.

I won't get it because I need the GPS solution. If the iphone 2 has GPS builtin, I will dump my treoes without a second thought.

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
agrothey @ 1/10/2007 6:31:39 PM # Q
I agree 100% that the price is reasonable. Being on T-mobile in the US I always purchased unlocked GSM Treos (650 and 680) with a similar price tag. I love(d) my Treos - but now they look old and completely outdated. I have always been furious about the lack of WiFi and the shortcomings of the Palm OS which is antiquated. I have more or less maxed-out the functionality of my Treos as a multimedia device (yes, you can watch videos and play MP3s), but I am ready to make the switch to the iPhone TODAY. The Treo is DEAD, and I feel very bad about it. M. Gorbachev once said: "The late-comer will be punished by life" - and that's exactly what is going to happen to Palm/Treo. I am sad to see an old friend go, but shame on you, Palm, for not innovating!

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
freakout @ 1/10/2007 6:38:26 PM # Q
This device is designed for two hand operations, so please don't mention the one hard operation again and again.

No self-respecting phone should be designed for two-handed operation. You don't always have two hands free the grab a phone when it's ringing. The importance of easy one-handed use cannot be underestimated or understated.

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
freakout @ 1/10/2007 6:40:53 PM # Q
The Treo is DEAD, and I feel very bad about it. M. Gorbachev once said: "The late-comer will be punished by life" - and that's exactly what is going to happen to Palm/Treo. I am sad to see an old friend go, but shame on you, Palm, for not innovating!

Please stop drinking the Apple Kool-Aid. iPhone's price point and Cingular exclusivity virtually guarantees it won't be able to dominate right out of the gate.

Yes, the Treo looks ancient by comparison, but it's important to note this ancient $200 device can still do almost everything the $500 iPhone can do. Wifi is indeed becoming more important, and I'm certain Palm are going to be pushing harder for wifi Treos now that Cingular has opened the wifi gate with iPhone.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
SeldomVisitor @ 1/10/2007 7:43:39 PM # Q
The iPhone has "triangulation" built-in - location based off of cell tower, not satellite.

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
SeldomVisitor @ 1/10/2007 7:44:32 PM # Q
The iPhone is a Cingular exclusive in the US only - it is scheduled for release in Europe end of the year.

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
otter @ 1/10/2007 8:04:43 PM # Q
Have we all forgotten that only a handful of months ago the 700p cost even MORE than the iPhone? I certainly haven't.

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
freakout @ 1/10/2007 8:14:04 PM # Q
^^ Point is it doesn't anymore, and the Treo 680 is several orders of magnitude cheaper than that. The past is the past, and it's likely Treos will be even cheaper by iPhone's June release date.

This could be good news in the end. iPhone is priced out of most people's reach yet is going to generate fresh interest in all-in-one phones, something that Palm have as yet been unable to do - more out of limited marketing resources than anything else.

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
agrothey @ 1/10/2007 9:40:03 PM # Q
freakout, I am sorry, but I think you are kidding yourself. You will see that the iPhone presented now is just the beginning of a larger product line of "phones" with this graphic interface. It is the interface that makes a phone smart. I am sure that no one expects Apple to get 1% market share with this one product type announced. Now that they have the platform right they can take away (music/video? camera?) and add (3G? GPS?) features as they go to create a product line of phones with various price tags. One of he most important features of the "phone" is its OS - and those of you who have used a Mac in the OS X era can attest to its flexibility and stability. We have no info yet on how "complete" the OS implementation on the iPhone is, but even there lots of options are conceivable in the future... I have been a loyal Treo/Palm user for many years now, mainly because of the functionality of the software. But somehow I have felt stuck for quite some time - and I am sure this feeling is being shared by many.

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
Ba-gug @ 1/10/2007 9:43:33 PM # Q
People were camping outside in the cold rain for hours for a PS3. Then people sold them on eBay for over $2000.00. This phone will sell, but I won't buy one, not because it is expensive but because it is lacking PDA apps. I need to transfer Word.docs, I need a program like Agendus Premier for scheduling and from what I have heard so far the new iPhone will not have these options, therefore I'll be sticking with my Treo 650. If the iPhone could do what I need for my work I'd drop a $1000.00 on it, after all it's only my work places money.

"Hambug or Ba-gug, that's me.!"
RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
LiveFaith @ 1/10/2007 10:06:50 PM # Q
Hambug. A little OT, but you may wanna drop a few hundred for the 680. It is light years ahead of the 650 in everyday usage. Cingular upgraded me for free after I refused to live with the volume issue anymore.

It is soooo much nicer except for short battery life (which Seidio will soon remedy) and of course the loss of that cool little handle on top for removing from the belt case. Palm really seemed to try stabilizing and refining the 650 here. I'm 90% impressed.

Pat Horne

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
freakout @ 1/10/2007 11:02:30 PM # Q
agrothey
I am sure that no one expects Apple to get 1% market share with this one product type announced. Now that they have the platform right they can take away (music/video? camera?) and add (3G? GPS?) features as they go to create a product line of phones with various price tags.

We can't say that Apple have gotten the platform right until we've actually used the thing. What you said applies to Palm as well: as LiveFaith mentioned, the 680 is the Treo perfected. It's very stable, has great phone and Bluetooth performance and a huge range of applications available. Apple will have a hard time catching up there. Palm now have a solid base on which to diversify, which Colligan made a big point of talking about in the recent earnings call. Palm already do 3G with the 700 series and 750; granted, the 700p has been plagued with issues related to the 3G EVDO radio (poor call quality, big battery drain, skipping and lag) but that can only be improved on, and the 700wx and 750 have received high praise.

I'm not kidding myself that Apple aren't going to rob a huge chunk of mindshare from Palm, but Palm do have a lot of experience making phones now. If they can bring us a wi-fi Treo in '07, or a larger-screened version (or even better, both) then they will be able to compete.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
ggeoffre @ 1/10/2007 11:49:17 PM # Q
It is priced right for a high end iPod with a trifecta of wireless options (GSM-EDGE, Wi-Fi, and Bluetooth) not to mention the larger screen. iPods step up in price from $79 to $149, to $199, to $249, to $349. Jumping to $499 and $599 as a high end iPod is not that much more considering what you get.
RE: The price of iphone is unreasonable
freakout @ 1/11/2007 12:49:03 AM # Q
Apple have long charged a premium on their hardware. It's the way they work. Consequently, just like Macs are overpriced, so is the iPhone.
RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
SeldomVisitor @ 1/11/2007 9:00:20 AM # Q
If the iPhone is a GPS-like unit, an iPod-like unit, a smartphone, and has that delightful user interface, doesn't this set of features count toward some sort of higher pricing than, say, a TREO 680?

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
hkklife @ 1/11/2007 9:20:19 AM # Q
Tim;

No offense but the 680 is NOT the Treo perfected.

It's still critically lacking in several areas:

screen size/resolution, wi-fi, a decent quality camera, pitiful battery life etc.

No, the Treo "perfected" would be something along the lines of Pat Horne's 800g mockup if not an outright "open" iPhone clone w/ removable media slot, capability to load 3rd party apps, and CDMA & GSM 3G variants....and the availability of it unlocked from the get-go.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
freakout @ 1/11/2007 5:15:06 PM # Q
Tim;

No offense but the 680 is NOT the Treo perfected.

Sorry, should have said "candy-bar Treo perfected". I agree we need more variety of designs, but I would be bitterly disappointed to see them drop this one which I've truly come to love for it's ease-of-use.

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
hkklife @ 1/11/2007 5:28:32 PM # Q
The Treo 680 is the only Treo in Palm's current lineup I'd even consider buying and using as my daily device.

I'll to OS X before I go WinMob and the 700p just needs to be put out pasture ASAP because I have a feeling Palm will never get around to patching it and/or patching it successfully.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
moofie @ 1/11/2007 5:45:16 PM # Q
The best Palm never sold was the Samsung PalmOS 5 device with the cryptic acronym and the 320x320 screen. I've got a couple friends with the PalmOS 4 version, and it's almost perfect.

Almost, because the text messaging app is hideously broken (it doesn't tell you who the text messages are from) and...

well, actually that's about it. If it had good text messaging, it would have been awesome. If it had a 320x320 screen and a good implementation of OS 5 (yeah, I know...good luck!) it would have been perfect.

But it wasn't, and it won't be, and I'm tired of waiting for Palm to get it right.

Indeed: If the speculation that developers will be locked out is true, that will be a crucial misstep. I will be very curious to see how that works out. But, the reason Apple is going to win this round is because they're doing their homework and working hard on hardware and software design. Palm is trying to recover from their idiotic hardware/software split, and I'm not confident they'll get it together in time to keep Apple from eating their lunch.

Some people have said the 680 is the greatest Palm ever. I see a 650 with no antenna. (And, with all its warts, I kinda liked my 650.) Is that really the best Palm can come up with?

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
hkklife @ 1/11/2007 8:00:00 PM # Q
Best case scenario for all of the techies out there watching the iPhone is that Apple releases it for Cingular/at&t this June, lets the exclusive period run for a while and then introduces a jazzed up non-cellular (or at least non-voice) version of it (same form factor etc) sold through traditional retail channels. Throw in a more open architecture that kinda/sorta promotes 3rd party apps (even if they have to be signed by Apple ala how games for the Zodiac were) and a microSD slot.

THEN Apple will effectively have their mythical widescreen iPod (albeit not with a hard drive), the mythical follow-up to the Newton/Apple's take on the conventional PDA, AND their hypeworthy cell phone all from basically the same source.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
joad @ 1/13/2007 6:09:08 PM # Q
I finally held a 680 in my hands last night. Put my 700p right to the side of it and could barely tell the 680 was any smaller than the 700p, though the lack of antenna stub was nice. I think Palm was completely bonkers to shrink the 680's battery capacity 33% if that's all the size savings they gained.

Actually, lowering the Treo battery life was stupid no matter what - but now that I held the results of this decision I'm of the firm opinion Palm (still) has their design priorities in the wrong place. And sleepy companies like Palm will either wake up to opportunity or die off like the old Apple Newton in the face of intelligent competition...

RE: The price of iphone is reasonable
freakout @ 1/13/2007 6:41:12 PM # Q
Since the 700p also has a curvier feel to it I guess the difference might not be so apparent, but going from a 650 to a 680 I'm very impressed with how much nicer and phone-like the 680 is to hold. The weight difference is tiny but very noticeable in my pocket - as in, sometimes I forget it's in there.

I like it. Think they got the balance between form and function just right. Especially with the red ones. :D

Now we need some landscape ones.

Reply to this comment

Truly Apple, Absolutely Revolutionary

ggeoffre @ 1/10/2007 10:38:05 PM # Q
How does Apple get the industry to pay attention to a trade magazine's little get-together at Moscone while everyone else is at the big show in Las Vegas? Have Steve Jobs invite Jerry Yang, Eric Schmidt, and Stan Sigman to admire his new cell phone.

Rather than going it alone, Apple did look to revolutionize one's interaction with a phone in a very open and communal way, they worked with other companies. Apple partnered with Yahoo for push mail (a possible blackberry killer), as well as Cingular for dynamic indexing and random access to voice mail, (granted the Google application is readily available on other platforms). The revolution is in the partnerships. Technology companies will likely be more willing to partner with Apple on adding additional technological advances than with Palm. Admitting that to truly make something evolutionary in today's market one must look to establishing partnerships is where the revolution is to begin. Apple has made it clear. Apple has a rock solid operating system with a fresh new device and a subtly new perspective on touch screen technology. This will be what attracts technology companies to partner with Apple moving forward. The revolution is beginning, not ending.

I will however be keeping my Sprint Treo 650 for some time to come. At lease until I see more third party support for similar applications on the iPhone that I have become dependent upon with my Treo. On the other hand, I am dyeing to replace my 4G iPod Photo (no video support) with this new iPhone, at any price. I just don't need two cell phone plans. The question for me is how important are those awesome palm apps that I live and die by when a new very cool new iPod is on the line?

Reply to this comment

Palm TX vs iPhone

cnogueira @ 1/11/2007 8:40:38 AM # Q
Just think this:
Pick a palm TX device, ad a phone capability, ad some megabytes, make a little review on the software, innovate the design (fresh design), and what do you get?

An iPhone! Or in other words, a truly competitor with the new iPhone (specs, size, screen resolution, …).


CNogueira Portugal

RE: Palm TX vs iPhone
mikecane @ 1/11/2007 11:17:06 AM # Q
They should have made the TX look like the luscious LifeDrive instead of a stretched and suffocated (that blue!!) TE. I would have then lusted for a TX and not a LifeDrive.

RE: Palm TX vs iPhone
Foo Fighter @ 1/11/2007 3:53:42 PM # Q
Luscious LifeDrive?

I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. Its glamorous qualities are lost on me. In my eyes it's just a big fat slab of metal with a bizarre looking ring around the d-pad. "You've got ring around the D-pad!!!" Sorry, I'm waxing nostalgic.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
The iPhone Blog, www.theiphoneblog.com

Reply to this comment

A Realistic Course of Action for Palm

hkklife @ 1/10/2007 1:51:01 PM # Q
Items 1-4 can be done right away/soon. Items 5-8 are hardware related and will take some time…for Palm’s sake I hope they are working on at least a few of ‘em right now! All items are roughly in order of feasibility/importance.

SOFTWARE CHANGES:

#1 Fix the 700p's lag/Bluetooth/battery woes ASAP
The 700p, Palm's "flagship" POS device, should have never shipped in its current condition. As it approaches one year on the marketplace there still has't been a single ROM update from Palm. Also Palm needs to address Vista compatibility concerns for Palm desktop. Jan 30th is right around the corner!

#2 Fix the 680's battery issues ASAP
‘Nuff said.

#3 Address SDHC support in FrankenGarnet and release a FAT32/SDHC driver for all 2005-2006 era devices (Treos and PDAs).
Palm can SO easily tout their lineup as supporting 8gb in REMOVABLE media NOW, with 16gb+ on the horizon. The iPhone's lack of a removable storage media is, IMO, a huge drawback. Look at the Sandisk Sansa mp3 player line for examples on how easily and cheaply this can be accomplished. The iPhone lacking a microSD slot is like the Visor Edge missing the boat on SD back in 2002--Apple went for too much elegance and simplicity in this regard. Palm can use this oversight to their advantage. Also Palm needs to do as Freakout suggests and make Palm Desktop have solid media formatting and syncing capabilities.

#4 Start bundling PTunes Deluxe and/or a fixed, reskinned CorePlayer with all devices. Do everything possible to emphasize the multimedia capabilities (streaming and local storage) of all Palm OS devices. Offer subsidized, reasonable discounts ($20 or less) to owners of existing Palm devices to upgrade to the latest versions of PTunes Deluxe, Kinoma, VersaMail, CorePlayer, Docs to Go etc.

HARDWARE CHANGES:

#4 Release an antenna-less, bug-free 750p & 750wx ASAP
Palm needs to get its Treo lineup out of 2003 with all possible haste. A couple of mild refreshes between now and the iPhone's launch would at least bring the Treo line into aesthetic uniformity.

#6. Release wi-fi SDIO card drivers/firmware ASAP.
Also bring out Palm-branded low profile wi-fi SDIO and miniSDIO cards for attractive prices.

#7. Bring out a refreshed TX2 with "gigs" of internal storage.
and market it as a mobile phone companion + PMP with phone drivers/init strings updated monthly. When I show someone a movie in landscape mode on my TX they are stunned that a "PalmPilot" is capable of that. Again, play up the widescreen/multimedia aspect of it.

Also integrate a microphone into the casing and include VOIP software that’s as elegantly simple to use as the recent POS Treo’s threaded SMS app. This makes for a good fallback solution in case the bottom ever falls out of the Treo market.

#8 We need new Treo formfactors!
One or two entry-level, phone-centric candybar Treo (680 variants), a midrange flip model with an emphasis on style & sleekness, and a flagship tablet style device with iPhone/ LG-style virtual keypad with tons of features would make for a solid Treo lineup.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: A Realistic Course of Action for Palm
hkklife @ 1/11/2007 12:21:22 PM # Q
Sorry for the typo above--#4 is listed twice but the 2nd 4 is, of course, #5.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: A Realistic Course of Action for Palm
jfme @ 1/11/2007 12:41:22 PM # Q
hkklife,
I could not agree more.

As of last Tuesday, Treo owners are very..very important customers to keep happy with continous support and bug fixes. These are the customers Apple has done all their homework and benchmark upon to come up with the iPhone. In the next 12 months, these are the customers what will think to themselves "do I have to put up with all these bugs or do I try something new". Ignoring devices with glitches and defects that can be fixed with software updates is simply unacceptable.

RE: A Realistic Course of Action for Palm
twrock @ 1/11/2007 6:19:43 PM # Q
Re: #7, but they can't kill us with a "premium" pricetag for that internal storage. We all know what flash memory goes for these days. If they are going to gouge me, I'm not buying. Otherwise, just make is HCSD and possibly just put in a second slot. Then I can choose my own "gigs of memory".

Incidentally, after using the Zod with its two slots, I do think it is a good idea (my HandEra had dual slots too). One slot holds your "standard" card which includes you backup, reference materials, favorite MP3's collection, etc. The other slot is for more temporary data like more music, videos, photo collection, etc. I don't like swapping cards in my TX, particularly because of the automated backup issue.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: A Realistic Course of Action for Palm
hkklife @ 1/11/2007 8:17:40 PM # Q
Ron;

I don't care how many slots. 1's enough, 2 is delightful. I just need solid battery life, a 320*480 or better screen, and decent multimedia capabilities.

Realistically, I'm thinking 1-2gb internally is plenty for all of my 3rd party applications, games, Jpeg photo collection etc. Then that leaves the SDHC card available for movies/ancilliary mp3 collections/gps map data etc. As you said, stuff that's not critical and/or needs to be swapped out lately.

The dual SD slots in the Zodiac were great. Imagine if Palm had not crippled the LifeDrive's memory architecture and, instead of a Microdrive, released it with a CF slot or two SDIO slots.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: A Realistic Course of Action for Palm
joad @ 1/13/2007 6:26:55 PM # Q
mmmmm, 2 slots. How I miss that old Handera. CFIO and SD slot. Zodiac too. As the previous poster said, one card holds your "all the time" stuff (essentially acting as though it's internal memory, with the added benefit of removability) and you can use the other one as transient for movies and such. Really excellent, if slightly confusing setup.

But, expecting the sloths at Palm to move toward this would be wasted thought. They still don't see the need (or room) for repositioning the headset mic or adding a 3.5mm plug for audio. Apparently they have their engineers focusing on moving around hardware button functionality and *cutting* battery capacity on new models - 2 things I somehow missed as problems we were clamoring for Palm to address...

Maybe Palm will eventually self destruct to the point Apple can pick them up cheap. Imagine the Treo with Apple's input...

Reply to this comment

Interesting comments

bytor @ 1/11/2007 12:28:21 PM # Q
I have been a Palm user since the original "US" made Palmpilot and an Apple convert for 4 - 5 years. I find a couple of comments interesting. I also find your lack of faith disturbing... ;o). In the first instance, the reference to the iPhone as vaporware. Sure it isnt on the open market as of yet but, if I remember correctly, there was a LIVE on stage demonstration with a fully functioning iPhone. This is hardly vaporware. I think that people using this term should recheck the definition.

In the second instance I find the comments with regards to the supposed battery life surprising. When Palm started out, my original Palmpilot got about 2 or 3 months usage with 2 AA batteries with moderate to heavy usage. Now granted that what we have today is quite evolved, however, the battery life continues to get worse in Palm devices. The most recent example is the Treo 680 (Yes I do own one...unlocked). It has horrible battery life. Frankly, there just is no excuse for it. Palm has dropped the ball yet again.

Apple has done some amazing things with technology in the past 5 years. Use the iPod as an example. The 1st generation had a 5 gig hard disk and weighed a ton. It had a monochrome screen but was functional. It turned the MP3 player world upside down. Within 5 years, the 5th generation iPod has a wonderful color screen, is about 1/2 as thick, weighs less, has an 80 gig hard drive, is capable of playing videos and games and has awesome battery life. Oh yea, btw, it costs less than the original iPod.

Palm has had every opportunity to excel. They have a huge dedicated user base who have a complete disdain for Micro$oft. They pioneered the technology of handhelds and smartphones. They have a huge developer base. However, they have continued to fail to deliver what the end user really wants and needs in a smartphone...size, battery life, form factor, connectivity and coolness factor. I frankly love the idea that when I plug my iPod in to my Mac, it seemlessly updates my contacts, calendars, music, podcasts, etc. I have never had it lock up and I dont require the use of third party utilities to make it work. It has never crashed and lost data.

Granted, I am an Apple afficinado. I cant wait for the iPhone because it is what I have been wanting for several years. It is what Palm should have delivered 2 years ago. They are ahead of the curve in technology and continue to amaze the computing world. I believe that if Palm doesnt stand and take notice, they will be out of the game completely within the next 1 to 2 years.

Long Live Visor Prism

RE: Interesting comments
InsGuy @ 1/11/2007 2:40:39 PM # Q
I agree! I've changed over to Apple computers and then changed everyone else in my office over to them as well. i changed to a Dell X30h when they came out and have kept an eye on this website since that time in hopes of a product for me to change back to. From what I've read, the iphone just may be the product for me to leave WinMob. This is the product I've been waiting for for a LONG time.

All good things...
RE: Interesting comments
agrothey @ 1/11/2007 3:57:27 PM # Q
bytor,
I could not agree with you more. I have to say, though, that I am somehow sad to see that Apple could achieve something which Palm/Treo users have been carving for for quite some time. What am embarrassment!

RE: Interesting comments
freakout @ 1/11/2007 5:18:48 PM # Q
However, they have continued to fail to deliver what the end user really wants and needs in a smartphone...size, battery life, form factor, connectivity and coolness factor.

Look, the 680's rather ordinary battery performance is part of the reason I doubt Apple's battery claims. Simply put: battery technology hasn't made any considerable advancements for some time now. iPhone will be running three different radios, a multitude of sensors and a big screen, yet it will be the thinnest device on the market when it comes out. (Provided one of the phone giants doesn't use these intervening six months to steal Apple's thunder and put out a thinner device for a lower price.) Jobs neglected to mention standby time, possibly a telling sign.

I thought what people wanted out of a smartphone was versatility, ease-of-use and a lower price. Any company that wants a good smartphone should put "Coolness factor" and form factor behind those. (You could also say that any company that wants market share should reverse that, but I don't really give a crap whether Palm's market share goes up or down, so long as they continue to design what I consider to be the best smartphone currently available. And probably come June, too. :P)

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

Reply to this comment

How Can Palm Compete?

Amanco @ 1/11/2007 3:56:59 PM # Q
I am not sure why are you still bothered hinting for Palm, it will be easier if there was a 3rd-party app that runs Palm Apps on the iPhone, like Virtual PC on Macintosh...etc, and if there is (i am sure there will be), i will difintely go for the iPhone, which will buy me extra years till palm wakes up. By then i am sure they will be in the dark age as well.


RE: How Can Palm Compete?
freakout @ 1/11/2007 5:36:40 PM # Q
I've been a Handspring/Palm user for three years now. Perhaps that's just not long enough to become as jaded and cynical about the company's prospects as so many others seem to be?
RE: How Can Palm Compete?
twrock @ 1/11/2007 6:30:21 PM # Q
it will be easier if there was a 3rd-party app that runs Palm Apps on the iPhone, like Virtual PC on Macintosh...etc, and if there is (i am sure there will be),

Where are people getting this stuff from? Was there any indication from Jobs that this thing will be allowed to run real third-party apps? Seems to me that one of the huge advantages Palm will maintain over the iPhone is the ability to easily add boatloads of third-party apps. If the iPhone had any "openess" at all, don't you think it would have been advantageous to say so?

Cf. that to the OpenMoKo platform that will supposedly have phone out in February. Now that is the definition of "open". Unfortunately the initial hardware offering is not "to drool for", but that can also be remedied if the basic platform philosophy is right.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
moofie @ 1/11/2007 8:45:36 PM # Q
"Was there any indication from Jobs that this thing will be allowed to run real third-party apps?"

Was there any indication that there wouldn't be?

I'd be pretty surprised if it was locked down. Jobs kept saying OS X, and it's hard to get a lot more developer-friendly than OS X.

I could be wrong, or I could be right. At this point, it's all making stuff up. We'll see in June.

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
cervezas @ 1/11/2007 10:09:52 PM # Q
Steve Jobs saying "it's OSX" doesn't mean it is desktop OSX anymore than Bill Gates saying "its Windows" means Windows XP when he's talking about Windows Mobile Smartphone Edition. If it does run desktop OSX in an enclosure that thin then it should have a battery life somewhat closer to 5 minutes than 5 hours, so one would hope that he's using the term rather loosely.

In any case, the general consensus (which matched my interpretation of events) is that the iPhone will be about as open a platform as the iPod has been:

http://tinyurl.com/yldsba

http://tinyurl.com/y8rcem

http://tinyurl.com/ydq6gm

Some optimists say eventually Apple might allow 3rd party apps without any explanation for why they believe that:

http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2007/01/applications_on_iphone.html



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
twrock @ 1/12/2007 6:34:04 AM # Q
[Steve Jobs] “We define everything that is on the phone,” he said. “You don’t want your phone to be like a PC. The last thing you want is to have loaded three apps on your phone and then you go to make a call and it doesn’t work anymore. These are more like iPods than they are like computers.”

The iPhone, he insisted, would not look like the rest of the wireless industry.

“These are devices that need to work, and you can’t do that if you load any software on them,” he said. “That doesn’t mean there’s not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment.”


http://tinyurl.com/ydwzlv

Ok, so maybe it will be able to have "some" third-party apps, but this is not going to have a few thousand apps written for it. Sounds like a very closed system to me.

Now, put something like OpenMoKo (or even PalmOS) in that hardware and I'd be taking a much more serious look.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2007 7:23:47 AM # Q
> ...few thousand apps..."

I fall into uncontrollable giggles everytime I read someone saying this w.r.t. PalmOS as if it actually MEANS something.

No kidding.

It's like saying "Yes, but THAT computer is RED!".

When even a fanboy puts...like...MAYBE...10 extra apps on their whatever the existence of "thousands" (tens of thousands?) is irrelevant.

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
twrock @ 1/12/2007 7:34:10 AM # Q
When even a fanboy puts...like...MAYBE...10 extra apps on their whatever the existence of "thousands" (tens of thousands?) is irrelevant.

Ok, ok, so I used a little hyperbole. At least I didn't add that "tens of..." in front of it. :-)

But let me ask this, are the extra 5-10 apps you might choose the same 5-10 I might choose? With the iPhone it's gonna be the 5-10 that Steve chooses. From my minimal use of an iBook back in the day, I came to the conclusion that Steve and I don't always see eye to eye. That's ok when there are at least a few decent alternatives, but somehow I don't think you are going to have a choice of (for example) five decent launchers for the iPhone.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2007 9:36:00 AM # Q
> ...But let me ask this, are the extra 5-10 apps you might
> choose the same 5-10 I might choose?...

In general, yes!

It is indeed fascinating how LITTLE variety there is in fanboy's preferences for extra apps (and we won't even mention rank-n-file users who stick to pretty much what is already on their device when they buy it!).

So with trivial and insignificant perturbations relative to "tens of thousands of apps available", the apps YOU put on your device are the apps "he/she", for all "he/she", puts on his/her device!

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
twrock @ 1/12/2007 9:40:45 AM # Q
Ok then, give me your top five favorite third-party "apps" and we'll compare. Yes, I know you said "in general", but my point is having a broad choice is one of the very important benefits that I get from my Palm experience.

For instance, I have used Palm's built-in launcher, LauncherX, and ZLauncher for a significant time each. I use the KDIC dictionary heavily. I think iSilo is one of the greatest apps since sliced bread. What abour MyBible? We might have DateBk5 in common, but how about mobileClock? There are plenty of lesser used but important apps as well, like Unit Converter Pro and SecureIt. And I haven't even touched games or system enhancements, things that are just nice for making my experience feel more the way I want it to.

Even being able to choose between two very similar apps with only slight differences is something I enjoy having the option of doing. Is the iPhone experience going to deliver that to me like the Palm experience has? Having a significant number of choices is of high value to my mobile operating experience. I might be in the minority, but it is important to me none-the-less.

Incidentally, I rarely use DocsToGo or VersaMail, two built-in apps that I would guess many people would find "essential". Different strokes....


I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
hkklife @ 1/12/2007 11:06:26 AM # Q
My top 10 non-Palm apps (ie non-game):

1. SplashPhoto

2. Pocket Codes

3. Docs To Go

4. PTunes Deluxe/CorePlayer/TCMP/Kinoma 4 EX (not sure yet which one is my favorite-leaning towards Kinoma at this time)

5. eReader

6. Converter

7. TomTom Navigator 6

8. Splash ID

9. Phone Technician

10. BDicty

I use the stock Palm OS launcher, Blazer for web, and VersaMail for e-mail.

Noticing that my list is rather media-heavy, those aspects would presumably be covered with no problems by the iPhone. However, losing DocsToGo would be a huge setback, as would all of my "little" apps like Converter, Pocket Codes, BDicty etc.

Then past the top 10 I have stuff like MobiTV,MobileDB, SplashShopper, SplashMoney, Screenshot, CallRec, Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide, and probably close to 50 games. Right now I cannot jump to a conclusion until we see what Apple's going to have pre-loaded onto this thing and/or what they do end up releasing widget-wise for it.

Ron brings up a good point--look at the small but significant differences between apps like CallRec and mVoice on the Palm OS. Or eReader vs iSilo. Sometimes I'll give up extra features (iSilo) in favor of ease of use/price (eReader). Sometimes I'll take the quirks and extra cost to get added functionality (Kinoma, CorePlayer) rather than put up with a barebones, infrequently updated or feature-poor app (RealPlayer, AeroPlayer).

On another note, I think Apple would be wise to try to leverage the iPhone's considerable OS/hardware into making some novel DS-style games. The iPhone could be this to this generation what the original Gameboy + Tetris was to business travelers in the 90s. An iPhone with some nifty games would a step up from traditional cell phone games and wouldn't require "adults" to lug around a PSP or a DS.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
freakout @ 1/12/2007 6:23:55 PM # Q
My fave Palm apps:

1) pTunes 4
2) coreplayer
3) TagEditor
4) PalmRevolt
5) FontSmoother
6) TomTom Navigator
7) FileZ
8) PdaReach
9) LibertyControl
10) Google Maps, mainly just to show off. ;)

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
cervezas @ 1/12/2007 8:42:45 PM # Q
Great thread and I totally agree with where it's headed.

My concern is not that the iPhone is going to have any trouble selling without an application ecosystem. It's that companies like Palm have been gradually cultivating the idea of using software to personalize your phone to your needs and interests and have started to have a little success with this concept that most Palm users here understand so well. If you get right down to it, it's the reason a site like PalmInfocenter exists and is popular at all. The iPhone throws a big bucket of ice water on that idea. It's a big distraction for the masses and the handset vendors that sell to them. Just when smartphones (in the sense of real mobile computers) were becoming "in," Apple ships this gorgeous Pied Piper of a feature phone that's no more software-customizable than the prepaid phone hanging from the hook at the grocery checkout stand.

In one sense this leaves an opportunity for Palm to strongly differentiate itself from Apple by pushing the idea of openness and software personalization. Something they really could be doing a lot better job of even before this. But in another sense it makes it harder for Palm to get this vision into the mainstream now. Palm's motto is that "the future of computing is mobile computing" and it would have helped if Jobs had used his amazing showmanship to get that idea out there, too. Instead, he threw cold water on it: "You don’t want your phone to be like a PC...These are devices that need to work, and you can’t do that if you load any software on them."

It's disappointing. But it's sure going to be interesting to see how Palm responds.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
freakout @ 1/12/2007 9:23:46 PM # Q
But in another sense it makes it harder for Palm to get this vision into the mainstream now.

Quite possibly true. Also possible, albeit unlikely, is the reverse effect: people look at this expensive device with all these impressive features and wonder "Why can't it do X?"

I reckon the key to making consumers embrace the idea of mobile computing is making it easy to download, try and buy software without having to scour the net or a bunch of different online software stores. What Palm really needs is an iTunes-style online store, except for software. Round up every single one of those thousands of applications they so often refer to in press statements and throw them all in. Turn the Palm Desktop into a sync center for not just PIM stuff, but media and software too. They're already halfway there for media with some fairly decent photo & video management software. Trouble is it all looks terribly outdated and doesn't support nearly enough formats or music. And why can't you manage your device and the applications installed on it from your PC?

HotSync could use a shower and a shave as well. It's always been superbly reliable for me, but it definitely needs a more intuitive UI, especially in regards to custom conduit settings.

iTunes is Apple's secret weapon that no one has yet been able to neutralise. That's where I'd hit 'em first, if I was Palm.

RE: How Can Palm Compete?
twrock @ 1/12/2007 10:48:27 PM # Q
And how about a simple email client in the Palm desktop? Believe it or not, I started using Outlook (vs. Outlook Express) after I got my first Palm. Palm pushed me to Outlook because it had complete package integration. Yes, there were other "solutions", but they weren't as easy to use and lacked integration in a single package. Sure your enterprise users will demand Outlook connectivity, but why not make the Palm desktop the "free" low-end equivalent?

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
RE: How Can Palm Compete?
joad @ 1/13/2007 7:51:16 PM # Q
^^^^ That would be like giving away a fairly usable application to rip and organize your MP3 collection, burn CDs, totally free, keep updating it, and never charge a dime for it. Linking in your store where people could (optionally) purchase MP3's and video. They would also manufacture a little unit that could play those MP3's, but you could use that software independent of their device, maybe even stream internet radio - and that manufacturer wouldn't demand you purchase their little MP3 player as a condition - figuring that you'll like their software so much you'll probably end up buying their device. Absolutely crazy. Any company who thought like that would go right down the tubes (the Senator Ted Stephens "Internet Tubes" perhaps...?).

Palm Desktop was perfect in 1995 or so when they relabeled it from Clarisworks, and it's one of the few software programs that has stood the test of time and still works perfectly with a few minor tweaks over the years... (Oh, if you don't count the 4K memos, the DataMangler preventing syncing, Outlook glitches and a few other "minor" issues). Colligan was right - Palm has nothing to fear from those chumps over at Apple - what do they know about anything...

Reply to this comment

Here is a shocker: iPhone will FAIL

VampireLestat @ 1/12/2007 2:38:57 AM # Q
Why? The tactile entry system will turn off users.

Only way it would work is it had Star Trek-like flat fingerprint detection through a sophisticated heat, moisture, pressure, optical, cinetic feedback screen which would send info back to software which would triangulate and extrapolate all the info in order to pinpoint what was intended to be tapped.

READ MY LIPS: PEOPLE WILL NOT TAP WITH THEIR NAILS. So just forget about it.

For now, the Treo with its traditional tactile feedback and stylus will continue to be the best entry solution.



RE: Here is a shocker: iPhone will FAIL
benway88 @ 1/12/2007 3:42:56 AM # Q
You fail to mention the uber-smart error correction. One journalist used the keyboard and made some mistakes, and looked down at the email and it was 100% error free. It's implemented well -- it offers a suggestion while you type, and if you typed jibberish it will use the correct spelling when you press the spacebar. If you type a real word then it wont.

With minimal use, it will be less stressful to type on the iPhone than the Treo.

RE: Here is a shocker: iPhone will FAIL
Foo Fighter @ 1/12/2007 10:08:40 AM # Q
So just forget about it.

Ok. You heard him folks. Just forget about iPhone. Move along, nothing more to see. You on the sidewalk! Move along.

iPhone is a first generation device that's going to gain a lot of attention and a take a healthy bite out of the market. But it's not going to roll over the competition right out the gate, we all know that.

But to imply that no one will want this device because of the interface is just a bit foolish. I recall hearing these same accusations about the iPod's touch sensitive controls. "People don't want to tap a button, they want to "press" it. This is never going to take off."

We'll see how this all plays out.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
The iPhone Blog, www.theiphoneblog.com

RE: Here is a shocker: iPhone will FAIL
mikecane @ 1/12/2007 5:15:42 PM # Q
>>>READ MY LIPS: PEOPLE WILL NOT TAP WITH THEIR NAILS. So just forget about it.

Nokia thinks they will. But then... ahem.

RE: Here is a shocker: iPhone will FAIL
joad @ 1/13/2007 8:03:33 PM # Q
True. They've already bit them to stubs trying to troubleshoot their Treos....

Reply to this comment

From the horse's mouth: No third party apps on the iPhone

cervezas @ 1/12/2007 9:05:32 AM # Q
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/12/0430200&from=rss

Don't you hate it when your Treo takes down Cingular's whole West Coast network? I can certainly understand Mr Jobs' concern there.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: From the horse's mouth: No third party apps on the iPhone
freakout @ 1/12/2007 9:28:18 AM # Q
As can I. We should admire his concern for network reliability. Were all men so noble...
RE: From the horse's mouth: No third party apps on the iPhone
SeldomVisitor @ 1/12/2007 9:40:06 AM # Q
More important than "independent" application installation from that commentary is the implied thorough-and-possibly-complex connectivity between the iPhone and servers internal to Cingular (like the "visual voicemail", for example).


RE: From the horse's mouth: No third party apps on the iPhone
naio21 @ 1/12/2007 11:27:36 AM # Q
CrApple is a shi**y company.

Ivan
RE: From the horse's mouth: No third party apps on the iPhone
mikecane @ 1/12/2007 5:11:26 PM # Q
Oh stop. It's connected to the fekkin net. It'll load apps. Whether or not Cingular thinks or expects or was told otherwise...

RE: From the horse's mouth: No third party apps on the iPhone
cervezas @ 1/12/2007 6:07:22 PM # Q
It's connected to the fekkin net. It'll load apps.

If there is a Flash player you might be right. But if it runs on an ARM processor that'll be a problem since from what I understand Adobe doesn't have Flash optimized for ARM.

Here's what Jobs had to say to the NYT:

“We define everything that is on the phone,” he said. “You don’t want your phone to be like a PC. The last thing you want is to have loaded three apps on your phone and then you go to make a call and it doesn’t work anymore. These are more like iPods than they are like computers.”

The iPhone, he insisted, would not look like the rest of the wireless industry.

“These are devices that need to work, and you can’t do that if you load any software on them,” he said. “That doesn’t mean there’s not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment.”

Leaves the door open just a crack.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: From the horse's mouth: No third party apps on the iPhone
freakout @ 1/12/2007 6:16:57 PM # Q
I imagine the biggest reason behind this decision was not Cingular's network reliability or Apple's control-freak issues, but Cingular's nightmares of someone turning this thing into an awesome VoIP device. A stylish one with huge mindshare that's subsidised by them...
RE: From the horse's mouth: No third party apps on the iPhone
twrock @ 1/12/2007 7:50:22 PM # Q
"It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means we are going to control each and every piece of software allowed on this device. I pledge to personally examine every final candidate that makes it through our extensive review process, and I will verify that our beloved Apple family of users will only use applications that maintain the highest quality Apple experience. You can feel safe that I have done my part to make sure that civilization as we know it does not come to a screeching halt because some rogue iPhone application brings down the Internet. And you can take that to the bank (where you would do well to withdraw your money, purchase a full line of Apple products, and then invest all the rest in Apple Inc.)."

You kinda gotta read between the lines, but it's all there. ;-)



I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

Reply to this comment

iPhone vs Treo & Palm

bytor @ 1/12/2007 10:05:53 AM # Q
In my earlier post I also neglected to mention another important factor. Apple is very responsive to providing both software and hardware updates in response to glitches and bugs that occur. When a new OS is released (Panther & Tiger), updates were coming out almost weekly to address problems and issues. It seems to take Palm a number of months to address one or two issues. That said, I am sure the iPhone will have some glitches upon initial release. However, I am more than certain that these issues will be addressed regularly and quickly with relative ease...something else that has been lacking in Palm support.

Long Live Visor Prism
RE: iPhone vs Treo & Palm
cervezas @ 1/12/2007 12:01:32 PM # Q
Yeah, well, keep in mind: every change that a vendor makes to the phone software has to go through lengthy carrier testing and certification. The update process is quite a bit more involved than with desktop computers.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: iPhone vs Treo & Palm
bytor @ 1/12/2007 1:30:34 PM # Q
Not necessarily when it involves a flicker to the keyboard light or poor battery life because of power management defeciency... :o)

G-

Long Live Visor Prism

RE: iPhone vs Treo & Palm
freakout @ 1/12/2007 6:09:48 PM # Q
^^ And the tiny battery itself isn't a problem there? :P

If we're down to criticising Treos for an occasional flicker of the keyboard lights (oh, the horror! the pain!!), that can only be considered a good thing. ;)

RE: iPhone vs Treo & Palm
PenguinPowered @ 1/12/2007 10:24:32 PM # Q
[blockquote]Yeah, well, keep in mind: every change that a vendor makes to the phone software has to go through lengthy carrier testing and certification. The update process is quite a bit more involved than with desktop computers.
[/blockquote]

Not exactly. One of the reasons carriers love dual processor phones is that by seperating the radio software from the rest of the software, you get to do far fewer certification runs. Also, for non-radio software, there is typically a negotiation between the carrier and the software maker over how extensively updates are changed before they are released.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment

A recipe for Palm

sungod @ 1/12/2007 8:21:13 PM # Q
Take a 1 Lifedrive, 1 Treo and 1 large mixing bowl. Crack open the LD remove that bitter HDD and add a slice of flash memory to improve the flavor. Now peel the Treo and gently cut out the radio. Slip this into the space left by the HDD. Add a sprinkling of sex appeal close up the case and slap a new sticker on the front call it a Treo 800, call it a Quatro. Leave it to bake with the FCC for 3 months and you have a half descent 320x480 PDA phone that will tide you over until a better OS arrives.

on a long enough timeline the survival rate of everyone drops to zero
Reply to this comment

Seems there's plenty the iPhone won't do

twrock @ 1/13/2007 7:16:19 AM # Q
(Sorry if this got covered already, but there are way too many posts for me to weed through all of them to find out.)

If you are inclined to rely on David Pogue's "hands on" experience and conclusions, there is a whole lot the iPhone won't do that your Treo can. Here's a few items from his FAQ about what the iPhone won't do:
No Outlook sync
No OSX programs (?)
No added programs
No Flash or Java in the browser
No Word or Excel docs
No games (with no buttons, this would have been a little tricky anyway)

Go to http://tinyurl.com/y9ml2t for the rest. He's got his own video of a bit of the presentation as well, including a bit of his hands on use, during which you can see that the proximity sensor worked.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: Seems there's plenty the iPhone won't do
SeldomVisitor @ 1/13/2007 8:49:58 AM # Q
What a total crock of total nonsense.

No kidding...and nuff said.

RE: Seems there's plenty the iPhone won't do
Gekko @ 1/13/2007 9:15:31 AM # Q

i'm no fan of jobs or apple - but all of these issues are much more easily fixable than trying to modify the treo to make it on par with the iPhone in terms of hardware/software innovation. at palm's historical glacial speed, the treo could catch the iPhone in about 20 years. apple can/will fix the issues you list above very quickly and easily. don't get it twisted and don't confuse the possible with the impossible.

the iphone is a ferrari and the treo is a vw bug. you can create add-ons to the ferrari very quickly and it becomes an even better ferrari. a vw bug will always be a vw bug and it's very hard to make it a ferrari.



RE: Seems there's plenty the iPhone won't do
stonemirror @ 1/13/2007 10:43:29 AM # Q
It doesn't really make a difference if these deficiencies are "much more fixable" or not when they're not going to be getting fixed. The reason they won't be getting "fixed" is that Apple doesn't view any of 'em as issues: this is the way that Steve and gang want the iPhone to be, and they know better than anyone else. Just ask 'em.

By the way, "no user-replaceable battery" somehow fell off the list there... They could fix that, too, just like they've "fixed" the voluminous user concerns around that same issue on the iPod, by simply ignoring 'em...

RE: Seems there's plenty the iPhone won't do
Gekko @ 1/13/2007 11:13:52 AM # Q

are you an angry, bitter ex-apple employee?



RE: Seems there's plenty the iPhone won't do
stonemirror @ 1/13/2007 12:22:34 PM # Q
Not in the least. I'm a happy, well-adjusted ex-Apple employee whom they'd be pleased to hire back, were I willing; I simply know how they work and how Steve thinks about these things: I've worked with him and, believe me, he knows what we want better than any of us do. Just ask him.

So, are you an angry, bitter and disgruntled ex-Palm stock manipulator or was that simply the only sort of a response you could come up with...?

RE: Seems there's plenty the iPhone won't do
freakout @ 1/13/2007 5:57:18 PM # Q
the iphone is a ferrari and the treo is a vw bug.

And just like a Ferrari, the iPhone is priced well out of ordinary people's reach. ;)

RE: Seems there's plenty the iPhone won't do
twrock @ 1/13/2007 8:04:34 PM # Q
You know, I have no great admiration for Pogue. I've thought some of the stuff he has said about Palms in the past hasn't been exactly on the money. But he is a columnist for the NY Times which at least has some reputation for journalism. So can anyone do better than "a total crock of total nonsense" and "apple can/will fix the issues" by giving us more than just your feelings on it? What specifically did Pogue get wrong in his list? How do you know Apple will fix these issues? Are your responses just your personal opinioins? If so, in what way is your opinion more valid than a NYT reporter who actually used the thing? Do you have any evidence to back up what you are asserting?

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Reply to this comment

I only need one thing on my Treo

mwrob @ 1/13/2007 2:00:09 PM # Q
I've got a Treo 700p and it's only lacking one thing to keep me perfectly happy. I just wish it had a standard earphone jack.

Mike
Reply to this comment

Next step is a kill

bluecat @ 1/13/2007 4:39:09 PM # Q
Imagine an iPhone including office apps and a SLIDING KEYBOARD. If someone can do this gracefully it is Apple. It would be a killer.

But Apple does not seem to like buisiness people ;-) It took them all this time to include spread sheets in their office app. For the iPhone It is looking for eye-candy addicts that do not mind being limited in the way they can manipulate their hardware.

The first thing my girlfriend asked was; will the iPhone run my Fitness Tracker? No, it will not. And there you see. The iPhone is for iPod upgraders that do not mind listening to a heavily downgraded (that is compressed) version of their music.

Still we cannot bash PALM enough for being the lazy a**es that they are. I am totally fed up with their lack of innovation, support and creativity. They even do not put the revenue that comes from their Treo succes into real development. If they cannot come up with hardware that is more up to date and with WIFI!!!! I might jump to the iPhone and wait with answering my e-mails till I am back at my PC.

Oh.... forgot about the awful battery life the iPhone is going to have..... Isn't it unbelievable that dd 2007 we still do not have a perfect PDA-Smartphone!!!????

Will have to get the magic mushrooms out again...

RE: Next step is a kill
freakout @ 1/13/2007 5:59:46 PM # Q
Still we cannot bash PALM enough for being the lazy a**es that they are. I am totally fed up with their lack of innovation, support and creativity. They even do not put the revenue that comes from their Treo succes into real development.

That's a little unfair; last year they put out four new devices, three of which are 3G, two of which run an entirely new OS and two with a new form factor. For a small company like Palm I think that's fairly impressive.

From what I remember of the latest earnings call Palm does spend as fair bit of cash on R&D. And there's always the Secret Third Business that's meant to make an appearance this year...

RE: Next step is a kill
bluecat @ 1/14/2007 1:51:52 AM # Q
Hi Freakout. Yes they did more last year than they did in quite a while, but, as an example, in stead of finishing their own OS a while ago, they took the enemy on board. I don't want to start that story all over again, I know there are many sides to this, but as a long time customer I was promised sooo much more than that. The main reason for me to be frustrated with them is the lack of creativity and innovation. It is sad as a Palm user to see the latest developments mostly NOT implemented. 3 G is totally invisible for me, the only Treo's I have ever seen are 650's (and for every 650 about 40 Blackberries). Of course you can always blame the OS, the carriers etc. but hey, I have just seen a lighter-size Ipaq from Hong Kong that does have WiFi. It actually worked pretty well one-handed with a jog dial.

But then we people that complain maybe don't understand the culture of Palm Inc. As long as I have been a Palmy nothing has really changed. They have gone from Palm OS 4 to 5 in those 6 years. I have had problems with the digitizers on several T's, including the replacements sent by Palm. On my Treo, the mic has never worked when on speaker phone, but I did not feel like going through the support chain of events again.

Their culture is the one of merely satisfying a broad user base, not bringing minds and funds together to put the ultimate product out there. Must be difficult nowadays, because till now no one has.

Maybe I am just frustrated because I am ready for an upgrade of my 650, but don't feel there is anything out there for me. Even the easy changing of the Sim-card, which only the 650 could do, is over in the 680. They put it under the battery... I have to change that little bugger about 4 times a week here in Europe, to make sure the carriers don't such me dry completely.

For me a thinner 600-series, with good battery life (probably impossible), with WiFi (probably forbidden), with 3.5mm jack (probably impossible), with an up to date OS would be enough innovation. I don't need more than that.

Sorry if I sound unfair.... Maybe got carried away in the discussion. But in all the years I have been lurking here, this seems the healthiest discussion so far. Somehow this iPhone has opened up a healthy discussion. And mostly because someone else seems to be able to be innovative and creative.

Cheers.

RE: Next step is a kill
bluecat @ 1/14/2007 2:24:28 AM # Q
Reading my own post it seems time to apologise. Getting really off topic here.

It is good to read the comments of people pointing out the things that the iPhone lacks compared to our beloved Treo's. Those are the reasons we will not be buying the iPhone. But still, someting seemingly as sleek and integrated as that makes us wonder.

Will continue lurking.......

RE: Next step is a kill (moving OT)
twrock @ 1/14/2007 4:23:14 AM # Q
I have had problems with the digitizers on several T's, including the replacements sent by Palm. On my Treo, the mic has never worked when on speaker phone, but I did not feel like going through the support chain of events again.

I'm curious about which Palm "division" you were dealing with for the replacement units. Any possibility it was Asia Pacific? Last year was a nightmare for me having to deal with their repair/replacement department. Seems they were doing nothing more than passing on faulty units from other customers to me.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: Next step is a kill
freakout @ 1/14/2007 5:25:18 AM # Q
Sorry if I sound unfair.... Maybe got carried away in the discussion. But in all the years I have been lurking here, this seems the healthiest discussion so far. Somehow this iPhone has opened up a healthy discussion. And mostly because someone else seems to be able to be innovative and creative.

It is kinda sad that one of the biggest threads on the site in ages was spurred by another company's product...

Palm need to be exciting again and stop playing it so safe, I completely agree. I just meant to point out that they haven't been twiddling their thumbs for the past year, even if none of their new devices have been heart-poundingly exciting. :)

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Next step is a kill
bluecat @ 1/14/2007 8:05:15 AM # Q
It was the revamped European service. Already two or three years ago. At the end I received a T2 as replacement of my T1. That unit was slightly better, but the digitizer still moved around a bit. I found out it had something to do with the connector of the screen scraping the hidden part of the screen when sliding. They told me time and time again that I was the only one with this problem of a bad digitizer.
RE: Next step is a kill
vipm @ 1/15/2007 6:10:16 PM # Q
- apps for iPhone, unlike for desktop, needs to be controlled because we can't afford to have our phone stop working because of a corrupt version of solitaire (according to Jobs).

- contact and other lists on iPhone has an A to Z index at the side so you can tap on a letter and quickly go there.

- the virtual keyboard's keys are bigger and more spaced than the real keyboards on Treos so it may be easier to type with. There is also visual feedback--I'm not sure it'll have audio feedback but I can't see why not.

- price: for $499, you're getting iPod 4gig nano (w video capability), a cellphone, camera, wifi, bluetooth, internet. I think the price is reasonable.

Palm could have come up with the perfect phone--current Palm 680 + wifi + standard jack + stable OS but they chose not to. Everyone should rejoice in the launching of the iPhone. It might actually spur Palm into doing what its customers have been clamoring for.

Reply to this comment

iPhone hype and failures

tOM Trottier @ 1/13/2007 5:22:26 PM # Q
I just watched Jobs' intro at CES. He's full of hype, touting old things as "breakthru", and quite wrong at times.

He says the other smartphone can't change their buttons, but in fact, the Treo (I dunno about the others) is operable by fingers on the screen on dynamic buttons in many applications. These are in addition to the very useful keyboard controls.

He says the touch screen display is way more accurate than using a stylus, way more accurate than anything before. I'd like to see that. How do you edit anything? Correct mistakes? Point with your finger obscuring the screen to choose your edit point? Then type with the keyboard obscuring 2/3 of the screen? It seems to be a "write-only" device, not a good tool for editing or correcting mistaeks.

He says Apple brought the iPod clickwheel to the marketplace - but such five-way navigation designs were around much earlier on cellphones.

He says that it is based on OS-X with all the AV support (and more) OS-X has. I'd like to see you edit a video on the iPhone.

He says you can move your entire email setup over to the iPhone. I very much doubt that he could move my Pegasus Mail setup over. Or hotmail. Or MS Outlook. Or Eudora.

He claims it is the "thinnest phone" at 11.6mm. The Samsung X828 is just 6.9mm while the KTF EV-K100 is 7.9mm. Maybe "thinnest smartphone"?

The scrolling is cool. Except when you want to find Trevor Witham, who comes after 3,000 other contacts in your phone book. Patience, patience. Much faster to type WIT.

The iphone i/f is slick and smooth, but that virtual keyboard looks very painful to use. I noticed Jobs was a very slow typist compared to most thumbers or even grafitti. No tactile or audible feedback.

It seems you have to switch back and forth all the time between portrait and landscape just to see some menus, eg, all the album covers.

I notice Jobs did not go into the Calendar. Is it just a display of the current month?

Jobs says the iPhone has "random access email for the first time". Huh? All the smartphones allow you to read an email by choosing the one you want. Blackberry has had push email for many years. The "Q" has MS push mail.

The seamless wifi/edge switch is nice. I wonder what wifi speed is supported - Jobs' demo seemed pretty slow, less than 1 MB/sec..

He says the battery life is "tremendously" better than any smartphone, but the Treo 650 battery life is longer (5h33 talk time), and you can get a bigger battery for it to last 11 hours..

It also looks slippery. Heaven help you if your hand is sweaty...

It seems to lack any IR i/f - so no controlling TVs or beaming info/apps with others.

The HTML browser looks good, and if google maps works, it must support ajax. I wonder about PDFs and java.

There is no provision for adding memory or devices like an SD slot. I suppose a sled could be made.

The iPhone seems to be largely a gee-whiz music and video display, not a work tool, and Jobs is a untrustworthy salesman.


We all live in a bunch of niches. A PDA is most convenient for a household inventory, for storing info like shortwave schedules, usable shopping lists (Handyshopper), voice notes for dragon dictate, MS documents(XL,DOC, ...) for display and edit, specialist calculators, configurable databases, games, diet records/calculator, bible concordance, ...

If the iPhone doesn't support these and more, they give up a lot of market share.

Then again, they probably are planning v2 to do this. Gotta keep something back to sell in the future.


Questions answered, answers questioned...

RE: iPhone hype and failures
joad @ 1/13/2007 8:05:16 PM # Q
Yeah, Jobs is a blowhard. Most promoters are. A much better

The more "general purpose" the iphone is, the more enticing it'll be to those of us impervious to the hype of Cingular drones tugging at us in the malls and ghetto neighborhoods.

I like greater screen area - who doesn't? But sacrificing hardware keys to gain it is about as stupid as cutting battery capacity by 1/3rd in order to gain a millimeter or two of "thinness" in a cell phone. Those crazy designers...

RE: iPhone hype and failures
twrock @ 1/13/2007 8:30:33 PM # Q
And now that Al Gore is on board, Apple invented the Internet too! ;-)

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
RE: iPhone hype and failures
SeldomVisitor @ 1/14/2007 6:39:43 AM # Q
> And now that Al Gore is on board, Apple invented the Internet too! ;-)

Or from a slightly more correct perspective, now that Al gore is on board, Apple enabled the Internet.

(...)

Reply to this comment
Start a New Comment Thread Top

Account

Register Register | Login Log in
user:
pass: