Comments on: Treo 750 spotted running Windows Mobile 6

Maybe we'll see something like the 700w--->700wx (or, way back when, the T|T to T|T2) transition and Palm will offer a 750x or 755 with nothing changed other than the pre-installed OS or maybe a better camera?

That's a quick & cheap way to keep their name in the spotlight around the WM6 launch hoopla, and save the "big guns" (a 320x320) WM6 Treo for the traditional fall launch timeframe.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

- organize my calendar, to-dos, addressbook, notes (original purpose) perfectly
- Connect to wifi hotspots
- Connect to the internet over bluetooth link to my cellphone when there's no wifi (the usual)
- Browse the web (Opera Mini)
- Play movies (TCPMP), such as TV episodes I've downloaded or down-converted DVDs (yes I do this)
- function as a portable "MP3" player (although I mostly use OGG), sometimes music but usually podcasts
- Full word-processor and spreadsheet support (MobiSystems OfficeSuite)
- More games than I know what to do with to pass my free time
- Other additional tasks such as tracking car maintenance, shopping list, etc.

And again, I point out that this 4-year-old device has better hardware specs (more RAM, faster CPU, larger screen) than the Treo 750. I concede that the Palm default UI is antiquated but that's easily fixed (as already mentioned) with some simple utilities.

Not bad for a "fossil".

http://vtbsd.net/winhelp/

p.s. this new 8800 looks sweet. bulletproof push email must be nice.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/blackberry-8800-up-close-and-personal-235806.php

Giggle.

That link does not work (for me?).

The CFO =just= said "no third platform" - there goes Linux!

That's what they've always said. But Linux is not a platform. Linux is a kernel. Palm OS has had three different kernels in the past but in each case Palm and PalmSource have always emphasized that it was "Palm OS," not some alternative platform. You can rest assured that if Palm develops a new Garnet-compatible OS running on Linux (or WinCE, or Symbian) they are not going to refer to it as a "third platform." It will be the new Palm OS.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Not that these statements can all be interpreted as part of some continuous strategy that's been unchanged since 2005, just that the "no third platform" mantra has been going on concurrently with enthusiastic talk about Linux since the 700w release. Palm doesn't seem to see this as a contradiction.

Who knows what Palm will do, really? The only inside info I had is now almost a year old and the rest is just suggestive bits here and there that seemed to support it. I do think they're going to do something with those development rights they bought from ACCESS. We'll see.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

========

[apparently my previously-stated "points in time" included some variation in the muzak-time before the presentation...oops...the archived presentation does not include that so those time points are incorrect for the archived presentation]

==============

About 30 minutes in the CFO mentions how valuable the PalmOS licensing deal was - from about $42 million last year alone for licensing to $46 million TOTAL amortized over 5 years for the new deal.

As such, this deal all by itself - with NO mods to PalmOS etc - was well worth it.

==============

About 32-33 minutes in he says:

== "...we introduced a completely new platform [windows]...I think
== it's highly unlikely you'll see us add a third platform for
== smartphones..."

He then adds something about the "no new radio architectures for the next 12 months" (paraphrase).

==============

About 38.30 in he says "only two [platforms] today are PalmOS and Windows Mobile".

Now, we can debate all sorts of things about what "no third platform for smartphones" means, but ... why?

Then again, that could be because they're dropping PDAs altogether in favor of Treos.

Geez.

At least I won't have to change this post:
http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/02/22/oh-palm-you-pack-of-eejits/

hat's what they've always said. But Linux is not a platform. Linux is a kernel.

Now that is a reach. To 99.9995% of the world, Linux means whatever you get on the distro. It _is_ a platform.

May You Live in Interesting Times

May You Live in Interesting Times

Christ, just don't call it PalmOS Corporate Edition!! (PalmCE!!!)

Why not just the evolution of the Palm OS platform?

Because it would require using a different set of development tools and the source code wouldn't be directly compatible with garnet. They've have to write a bunch of middleware to make their aps run on linux.

So what if they do? If the public API and system behavior from the perspective of an application was the same (i.e. it preserves binary compatibility) Palm application developers don't need new tools and it's mostly just a tweaked Palm OS Garnet to users. Palm might not even make a native Linux API available to developers.

Of course you might ask what the point of such an effort might be. Well, Palm could replace the application launcher with one written in native Linux that spawns a separate task for each Garnet application you launch and provides some way to manage multiple running tasks. Now you have a multitasking version of Palm OS with each app running in protected memory so it's unlikely to take the whole system down. There also might be one or two apps they'd like to add that are native Linux, to dip their toe in it and to take advantage of some of the extra power and flexibility.

It wouldn't attract many Linux hackers, but it would be an answer to a lot of the critics of the Palm OS in the technical press and the user community.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

So what if they do? If the public API and system behavior from the perspective of an application was the same (i.e. it preserves binary compatibility) Palm application developers don't need new tools and it's mostly just a tweaked Palm OS Garnet to users. Palm might not even make a native Linux API available to developers.

Because it's not developers that cost them money and overhead leading to their desire not to support three platforms, it's all the extra work. Costs you 60+% more to support three than it does to support 2.

What's the compelling reason to spend that much money on Linux?

May You Live in Interesting Times

Because it would require using a different set of development tools and the source code wouldn't be directly compatible with garnet. They've have to write a bunch of middleware to make their aps run on linux.

So if you are correct, what is the long-term plan for "Palm OS"? Will the Palm OS never move beyond Garnet? Will the future of Palm really be just making WinMob devices as the Palm OS sinks slowly into its own sunset? Will Palm make no attempt to evolve/develop "their" OS? And if they do plan on developing the Palm OS platform, what are the good alternatives for the kernel? Inquiring minds want to know.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/

palm gives every appearance of having convinced itself that it can play in the winmob field using the 'palm experience' to differentiate itself from other winmob platforms. I wish them luck.

IMO, No, palm has no plan to develop "their" OS. they've moved out of OSes and up into middleware and application suites. They are a hardware company that only does software to the extent that is is necessary to support the hardware.

The only compelling reason Palm had to play Linux with PSRC was that Linux was the only direction that PSRC was taking PalmOS in and Palm didn't yet have enough sales data on winmob to trust their future to a single platform. Access killed that when they made PalmOS a wart on ALP.

Yes, a lot of people expect Palm to branch out in that way. I don't. (They tried it once and failed miserably. I don't think they feel they've learned how to do better a second time.) They're killing off their PDA line and they're not keeping up in the cell market place. I expect Palm has just realized that they're on the 'keeping up with Nokia' treadmill and like the red queen have to run full speed just to stay in place.

I'm too lazy to do the homework, but if someone wanted to do some sleuthing to see if Palm's really interested in doing something with server side software, go back and look through those job listings for network architects and network engineers. You can't run a server farm unless you've got people who understand the intarweb.

Of course, finding such job postings might not mean anything, because you've got to be able to figure out the difference between postings for inward facing IT and postings for customer facing network operations.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Of course none of this would have happened except for some lazy "programmer" didn't turn them off himself.

:-p

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

> ...Jeff Hawkins, the chief technology innovator behind...Palm's next
> disruptive device...

There literally is ZERO evidence that this is true and somewhat strong evidence it is false.

Before the LifeDrive was released Hawkins mentioned The Next Great Thing. Strangely, PALM then got into a "third business" selling "mobile managers" like the LifeDrive.

Around this time last year Hawkins ceased to be the CTO, an unusual transisition to make a year (or more) BEFORE his Next Great Thing is going to be released, eh? Hawkins also is intimately involved with his own private company, Numenta, pursuing AI similar to how it was pursued in the early 80s...good luck to him!

There has been NO EVIDENCE since that original "secret third business" comment that PALM is pursuing anything OTHER than the LifeDrive that could have qualified for that moniker - certainly no evidence CONTEMPORARY TO THE COMMENT.

Just because it's repeated far and wide over and over again doesn't make it so.

Did you read the latest poo-pooing of The Buyout Rumor? Computerword says Hakwins' Numenbta work is going to be sold by PALM as The Next Great Thing!

Gee...maybe we should repeat THAT one, too!

The LifeDrive (announced on 5/18/05) was not a revolutionary Disruptive device, but rather a "Breakthrough" device. See the chart taken from the Palm Analyst Day meeting on 9/26/05 here http://tinyurl.com/266knf. The LifeDrive was not Palm's "Secret Third Business".

Here's more proof that it wasn't the LifeDrive, again from the Palm Analyst Day on 9/26/05, but this time from Peter Skillman's presentation during a section titled, ""What's the foundation of Palm's next disruptive idea?":

When we talk about mobile computing, most people still think about a laptop. But we know that mobile computing is really something that goes in your hand, and that the next thing, the sort of next platform or category of products that we may create will be perhaps some combination of these two because there's an incredible need, set of needs that aren't being met by the existing products. And so if you look at those needs and focus on the customer experience, that's how you can continue to deliver value to your customers year after year.

And finally, from TreoCentral's Palm Analyst Day coverage http://tinyurl.com/ytbzkp again from 9/26/05:

Hawkins could not leave without a tease, and so he explained how the the original Palm and the Treo were revolutionary devices, and how everything else released by Palm were sustaining devices. Now, he claims that Palm is working on a 3rd revolutionary device that will keep the company going over the next half decade.

content is going mobile. visit www.mobileread.com for news and discussion.

I really like Windows.

Giggle - perhaps!

But I think when all is said and done - if it EVER gets to the "done" stage! - we'll find that the multi-year hype around The Next Great Thing, no matter WHO it came out of the mind(s) of, will cause a collective sigh of "That's it!?" when finally introduced.

If they are ramping up for a server-side business, it should show up in their hiring, because they'd have to hire up a customer facing network engineering staff.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Ballistic, first of all the original source you quoted (the PDF file) is dated 2002, which hardly makes it relevant. Whether or not Hawkins "likes" Windows Mobile or not matters very little. He can like it or lump it, it's here and his creation went down in flames.

My use of the quote was in response to Marty's assertion that Palm is going to ween customers off of Palm OS and onto WinMob. IMHO the date of Jeff Hawkins's statement is irrelevant, and I stand by my assertion and submmit that Palm has based their vision of the future of computing as mobile computing, and the focus on ease of and simplicity, on Jeff Hawkins.

What creation of Jeff Hawkins that went down in flames are you referring to?

Second, as Marty astutely points out Hawkins no longer plays an active role at Palm. In fact his position as CTO is purely an honorary title. He's gone.

If you read the oral history and several other interviews, transitioning to to working on his "brain work" has always been part of his overall game, from the early days on through the decision to leave and form Handspring.

I guess you totally missed the significance of his statement, "And there’s a theme in my
life, by the way, which I really want to correct this. I want to correct-
underlying a lot of this, besides the brain work, another theme (maybe this is
one of the questions we get to at the end here) is really how do you make
personal computers that are better and useful for a larger audience."

Creating personal computers that are better and useful for a larger audience and the "brain work" are two themes and goals that have driven his career. Again, I submit to you that his opinion and vision matters significantly at Palm, regardless of his current "role" and time spent at the company. Show me any evidence counter to this to back up your assertion.

Lastly, this incessant talk about Palm's mythical third business is getting a bit old, and I grow weary of reading fanboy fantasies about wacky Garnet-powered hardware such as UMPC clones, or TabletPCs running PalmOS (as if anyone would even WANT such a device).

Enough already!

Foo, my comments were in direct response to an (incorrect) assertion that Palm's next disruptive device is/was the LifeDrive, and I supported my assertion with statements made by Jeff Hawkins, Ed Colligan, and Peter Skillman, all of which have been made in full light of the press, SEC, and industry analysts as David points out

I suggest that if you're growing tired of reading Palm fanboy fantasies that may be posted by others inside the pages and comments of sites such as PIC, you avoid any Palm sites altogether.

Brian

content is going mobile. visit www.mobileread.com for news and discussion.

Questioner: As you transition towards Microsoft Operating systems, you've got two now, what's unclear to me is that if everyone is licensing the Microsoft operating system, what is the competitive advantage at that point?

Andy Brown: I want to make sure we understand something, we're not transitioning to a Microsoft operating system.

content is going mobile. visit www.mobileread.com for news and discussion.

2. They [Palm] wanted to expand into Europe and the European carriers told them they didn't want to adopt another platform other than Symbian and WinMob.

This is beginning to smell like some BS copout; how does this explanation fit in with Orange, one of the largest multi-country European carriers backing the ACCESS Linux Platform? Orange already has plenty of WinMob and Symbian devices, their Swiss division even has the Treo 680, shame it's not arrived at Orange UK.

Indeed, only us Palm OS lunatics fans know that you can purchase the Treo 680 sim free in the UK, but that's another issue.

I hope you don't mind if I don't use a CFO's presentation to Wall Street in lieu of actual evidence of what Palm is doing.

I believe that the facts are clear. Palm has bet on WinMobile and needs to say they haven't. Palm has bet on the cell phone and is writing everything else off. There's no "third business."

Time will show

Fair enough, but I disagree. Although the CFO's statements are covered under the Safe Harbor Statement, I have a hard time believing top Palm management is going around knowingly making statements to analysts, the media, shareholders, and customers that are false.

Why then, is Palm still hiring Senior Embedded Software Engineers?

Senior Embedded Software Engineer
Job ID 2747
Location USA - Sunnyvale
Category Engineering
Date Posted Feb 23, 2007

Job Responsibilities:
Design, architecture, and implementation of embedded software.
Develop and test the required software code in C or C++.

Job Requirements:
- 7+ years as a hands-on software engineer with experience in embedded environments
- Strong background in OOD
- Must have a very good command of C/C++
- Experience and/or strong familiarity with embedded linux OS (familiarity with the
PPC platform is a big plus)
- Familiarity with PalmOS.
- A good track record of shipping successful products.
- Experience and/or strong familiarity with X-platform development
- Team player with good interpersonal skills.
- Knowledge of software development and release processes and technical
documentation.
- Ability to show flexibility in handling multiple tasks.
- Ability to develop test routines in C/C++/Perl/Python or Assembly to debug and test
wireless systems (good to have)

Desirable Skills:
Familiarity with GSM and/or CDMA and/or WiFi protocols.
System-level knowledge of Linux OS.

I don't see WinMob in that job description, but I do see Palm OS and Linux OS. Do you consider recent Palm job postings and statements by top Palm management of less evidentiary value than your personal hunch?

I don't.

Shall I trot out the infamous Piloting Palm excerpt in case there's a SINGLE SOUL here unaware of the glorious gold-threaded suit story?

;-)

As to your comments:

I agree wholeheartedly. Palm could basically keep the Z22 or E2 or something into production ad infinitum as long as it continues to sell decently at retail with zero $ spend on marketing it. They could continue to parrot canned propaganda about "maintaining support for Palm OS/Garnet" and maintaining a "Dual OS strategy".

I still maintain that Palm is going to slowly wean their users off of Palm OS by releasing maybe 2 or 3 more POS models (1-2 Treos & a PDA) over the next year. It's so obvious that Palm are treading water waiting for *something* to happen.

Look at all of the pressing matters Palm needs to address:

#1 Vista. Their ignorance of Vista's launch was (and IS) simply unacceptable. Every day past January 30th 2007 that Palm offers a web page full of lame "suggestions" instead of a fully Vista-compliant Palm Desktop to download for *ALL* models is a day too late. Heads should roll over this one.

#2 Also add to the above Palm's lack of supprt for other M$ OSes (Win XP MCE, 64-bit versions etc). Guys, this is a simply Hotsync + Palm Desktop. Its roots are 10+ years old. How hard can it be to port it to every modern permutation of Windows?

#3 SDHC compatibility. Palm cannot stand pat any longer on this. 2gb cards have now become the norm even for cheap retail purchases. Palm did such a good job pushing SD early on...why are they such laggards when the rest of the industry is rapidly transitioning to the new 4gb+ formats? Palm should also design all future devices to have built-in UMS compliance so that there is native DriveMode/Card Reader style functionality built into the OS. Cheap mp3 players have done it for years and using a USB flash drive is 2nd nature to even novice PC users.

#4 Windows Mobile 6 upgrade plans. This isn't AS pressing as the other issues but I bet the 750 owners out there are still anxious to see what Palm's plans will be.

#5 700p update status. I've completely written the 700p off personally but there are still many disgruntled 700p users out there itching for an update. The 700p'll be a year on the market in two months and there's no update in sight. Even if an update does come, Palm has all but admitted that many of the 700p's issues are essentially unpatchable. I'll either go back to my TX or see what the "Sherlock" has to offer.

#6 Larger screens & wi-fi on Treos. Apple gave a very, very bad showing by bending over and being game for the reaming Cingular gave them. Palm still has a chance to buckle down and become a lean'n mean rogue company operating on the periphery of the handset market. If that means selling unlocked GSM Treos for what CDMA providers are charging for their Treos w/ 2-year contracts, then so be it. Remember, Palm is the ONLY mobile handset company (the Sony part of SE aside) with a long history of selling deveices "cash'n carry" without the onerous interference of the carriers playing middleman. Palm needs to learn that USERS want wi-fi and larger screens and that there's still a huge change that the iPhone is going to flop (I am far less certain that it's going to be a runaway hit than I was a month or two ago). If that is the case, wouldn't an attractively priced "Treo TX" be a very smart move?

#7 VOIP. Palm needs to get on this bandwagon with all possible haste. Palm currently offers Treos with a choice of two different OSes. Why not offer Treos (or Treos + handhelds) with two types of voice functionality--traditioinal network-based cellular voice or VOIP? How silly would I look running around town with a Linksys or Cisco VOIP handset in my back pocket? But how cool would I look whipping out an m500-shaped device at the local coffee shop and phoning up someone on the other side of the globe for free and/or having an impromptu video chat? Palm could oh-so-easily rebuild the TX as a sleek VOIPcentric PDA/PMP hybrid device and sell a ton to the Mike Cane & student types out there whom, for any number of reasons, don't want/need/cannot afford a Treo + data + voice plan. And of course, there are still people like myself who do not MIND carrying two devices when they do the job so much better than single lame converged device like the entire Treo line.

(Yes, Joad, I know we continue to punish Palm by throwing dollars at them but at this point I'm partially justifying it by doing it for the greater good of PIC & the community...if it was just lil' ol' me I'd probably have stuck with my T5 back in '05!)

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

...what we're going to do initially is shore up that foundation, is really the key.

I wish he had said something like "What we are going to do first is to replace the foundation." "Shore up" does sound an awful lot like "We're planning on limping along as long as possible with the bare minimum improvements to the Palm OS." It doesn't sound like a long-term road map. Of course I'm reading a lot into an ambiguous statement, but then again, there is the evidence of "history" with Palm.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/

Palm simply *MUST* learn to communicate better with their (remaining) user base.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P