Comments on: More ACCESS Linux Platform Photos from 3GSM
José Julio Ruiz from PDA Expertos has just posted a series of photographs from ACCESS' booth at the 3GSM World Congress in Barcelona. José has posted a gallery of shots of from a ALP demo system on display at the ACCESS booth and also a pic of a developer phone running ALP. Also shown are a number of screens of the home screen, Applications launcher and Garnet VM controls. Read on for a few pics and a video, you can check out the full gallery in English or Spanish. Update: A video of ALP has been added.
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RE: iPr0n
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
RE: iPr0n
All that chunkiness and not a thumb-board in sight!
K*
RE: iPr0n
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
'Simulator'...?
(In fact there is a thumb board: it's to the right of the monitor, below the 5-way/superkey cluster...)
RE: 'Simulator'...?
Well, I knew the job was dangerous when I took it...
RE: 'Simulator'...?
I notice we're starting to get these here in the U.S. with the advent of the LG AX490. Ugly as sin, but a company with an ounce of design sense could fix that fairly easily.
By the way, hasn't Marvell supplied you guys with a "dual head" version of that board yet, David? I'm not sure I could go back to using just one "monitor" when I'm programming. ;-)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: 'Simulator'...?
I think there may be a facility on that board to support a secondary display...
RE: 'Simulator'...?
Interesting
As for people here in the US who don't give a damn about this OS, I'm certain ACCESS doesn't give a damn about YOU. There are a BILLION Chinese and a BILLION people in India vs US. It can be a roaring success without us *ever* seeing it.
RE: Interesting
It can be a roaring success without us *ever* seeing it.
I think there are quite a few here who would object to you confusing "us" with U.S.
But ignoring that for the moment, there are so many ways that the mobile market could develop in the U.S. that it's hard to discount the prospect of ALP devices showing up here except in the shortest term (I doubt you and I are going to be the first to see one, Mike).
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Interesting
...and some of it is already being customized in Garnet with programs like PalmRevolt.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
RE: Interesting
Let them object. If I could read the Chinese, Indian, and Japanese languages, I'm sure there'd be plenty of comments likewise on those sites, and it's THEIR right to say so too. Stop being PC, you nit.
It seems there are some posters here who know something about ALP. Do tell.
I hope, unlike that abomination on the Nokia (anti-)Internet Tablets, Linux has been done *right* here. I'd really like to try this thing for myself.
RE: Interesting
I share what information I can, and I try to be responsive when possible. I'm not going to be sharing licensee or other customer plans, nor am I going to be ammouncing device release date, specific licensees or customers, or other such information--that's not my department, and it's up to the licensee whether they're willing to have that done by usat all--so please don't bother asking. As they say in Japan, "Chotto muzukashii desu...": "That might be a little difficult..."
And, as I've pointed out in the past, my occasional participation is one hundred percent contingent on the ability of other participants to act as though they're adults discussing technology and business issues. The instant things devolve into the fifth grade, and the pointless name-calling, personal attacks, sexual harassment, etc., start up, I'm outa here like a shot.
RE: Interesting
That's a nifty hack for Garnet, but it's not the sort of customization that carriers, for instance, are looking for...
RE: Interesting
I CLEARLY said:
>>>It can be a roaring success without us *ever* seeing it.
I made the same point you just did, you holier-than-thou eejit.
RE: Interesting
...and I'm only saying that because I care--there's a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing...(Val Kilmer as "Chris Knight" in Real Genius)
RE: Interesting
Looks like most of the people participating in this conversation aren't from the US, which is just an idle observation, but sort of interesting nonetheless. I wonder why that is?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Interesting
All those non-natives can come back to gloat and tell us all about ALP if they're able to actually buy a device that has it. I'll be the first in line to read their comments.
RE: Interesting
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/
RE: Interesting
Not-quite-vaporware
Peace Out
Alan
RE: Not-quite-vaporware
Yeah - kinda spooky seeing some of the stock Palm OS dialog boxes / pop-ups on a new device - although I realise that is just a cosmetic thing, most likely aimed at giving old Palm OS die-hards like us some feeling of continuity?
I just wonder what a device with such a large screen and large thumb-board would actually look like? And how usable the new mouse pointer functionality will be in real life.
Interesting stuff all the same - but lacks some of the wow-factor that the iPhone exudes with it's (battery draining????) transitions and other eye-candy!
KultiVator
RE: Not-quite-vaporware
RE: Not-quite-vaporware
If it was a phone, I imagine they would.
RE: Not-quite-vaporware (OT)
How many of you have tried Scott R's Thumbboard app from over at Tapland? I find it actually usable (vs. the tiny little buttons on alternate apps). It's got a "standard" qwerty layout and both visual/auditory feedback (configurable). It is still in beta, but works with most Palm apps.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
RE: WTF?! Video shows a mouse pointer?!!?
Not that this means anything other then that was the convenient way for them to demo; if it runs on the dev board then it can run on actual hardware.
RE: WTF?! Video shows a mouse pointer?!!?
RE: WTF?! Video shows a mouse pointer?!!?
The person holding the phone is cotroling it with the 4way controler.
If they are going to build in that sort of functionality for non touch screen phones it would be great to have a nipple like the old laptops.
Far more intuitive than a 4way that only givs you straight up/down and left/right.
on a long enough timeline the survival rate of everyone drops to zero
Another ALP video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmaGcMg38RE
And this is on an *actual handset*.
Looks too bloody slow for me. All those blank screens would drive me mad. Now I think I understand the LifeDrive HD delay objections...
RE: Another ALP video
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
RE: Another ALP video
If you are referring to Quanta making ALP smartphones also, in addition to Win Mob smartphones, then the fact is that Quanta is mostly an ODM, and they will make smartphones with anyone's OS on it, even GarnetOS ;) They are pretty successful with WM devices, making pretty high priced, high end devices.
Surur
They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml
RE: Another ALP video
According to MSFT, WinMob is the "World’s Fastest-Growing Mobile Operating System".
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/feb07/02-11WM6SoftwarePR.mspx
RE: Another ALP video
Yeah, and Gartenberg called it "the world's best smartphone OS."
Where's my puke bag...
RE: It is PAINFULLY SLOW. Bring COBALT BACK
With the new Xscale (I cant remember their new name) processors running at 600mhz I'm sure it will fly.
And don't forget it's still only in a late beta or early RC stage. At this stage Vista was still maxing out 7900 graphics cards because the drivers still weren't down pat.
on a long enough timeline the survival rate of everyone drops to zero
RE: It is PAINFULLY SLOW. Bring COBALT BACK
No one owns the mobile OS market yet anything could happen your mindset it just tainted from waiting for so long for a new OS.
The people outside this forum don't care the you have been boned by Palm's management over a next gen OS.
on a long enough timeline the survival rate of everyone drops to zero
RE: It is PAINFULLY SLOW. Bring COBALT BACK
During that 5 years M$ had massive positive cash flow, was sitting on a cash reserve worth tens of billions of dollars and already owned the desktop market.
They will earn back in the first year of sales more from Vista than it cost them to build it, even at the slow sales rate that seems likely.
They're not a good choice for an analogy here.
May You Live in Interesting Times
Based off of Linux really all that bad?
How come people complained when Palm closed it's OS to most 3rd party developers; now a more open approach within developing their next OS (because maybe they realized they were being kind of mean towards 3rd party dev's), and some idiot posts that Palm is doomed for using Linux?
Honestly!
God Bless!
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
But with all do respect (because everyone is entitled to their opinion), Linux is opening doors for them... Also you would think this would enable an upgrade cycle (as long as the hardware supports it), which would be a first for Palm. Mind you, some people haven't given up their m515's yet either (and would probably need a good reason to shell out $500 for the new hardware... the specs for the OS on the ACCESS website seem to be a bit hardware intensive)... Software not compatible with OS version? Just Hotsync the upgraded kernel and BAM! The program just works.
I just hope that true multitasking can be done soon (maybe similar to what Intel did with their DUO lineup - make the processor more powerful, faster while achieving less power consumption). Also I notice that displays are getting bigger (ACCESS lists that the max resolution is 480x800something - I may be a little off, but that's a big screen resolution); while these specs are nice to see: better hardware should not compromise the longevity of use.
Though, this could potentially fail if they don't expand on it - that would be their biggest loss... They would not fail with Linux, but rather - how they use it - and I don't really see that "failure" happening. At least we now know it's potential (because it's now no longer vapourware).
If Palm is such a failure, why do people break them - and buy another? Even after going after a WinMobilePPC - they break em' - and say that they're glad to have broken the thing, and go off to their local Staples (or whatever) and get a Palm instead of a replacement WinPPC?
God Bless!
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
- Palm may be interested in Linux, but there's no reason at this time to think they will be using ALP.
- If the Maemo platform is any indication, a full-fledged mobile Linux OS benefits from a modestly faster processor and more program memory than Palm OS requires. (The 770 Internet Tablet was slow with 250MHz and 64MB RAM, while the N800 is snappy with 330MHz and 128MB.)
- A lot of what has traditionally made Palm OS so fast and efficient is precisely the architecture that people have been begging Palm and PalmSource to abandon: the "outdated" system where applications execute in place in RAM and data is generally in fast (but volatile) RAM rather than in a "modern" non-volatile file system. Current devices from Palm that address this by storing data and apps in slower non-volatile RAM experience lags just like Windows Mobile and Symbian systems do. Palm developed their much-maligned "FrankenGarnet" caching strategy to reduce this effect by keeping frequently used data and applications in RAM, thereby straddling the fence between the fast "antiquated" execute-in-place Palm OS architecture and a modern desktop OS architecture. The point is that Linux is a "modern" system that (like the competition) gives up some speed of execution in exchange for having a real file system.
- You do get a lot of benefit from having applications and data load from non-volatile memory: You don't risk loss of data, it's easier to secure, you can have gigabytes of data on the device without powering gigabytes of battery-draining SDRAM chips, and it's a lot easier to port software from other platforms, among them. It's just that if you want these benefits there is a price to pay in system performance because your operating system is going to work more like a desktop PC, having to first load applications and data into RAM before using them.
Everybody wants a free lunch--it's human nature. But in the real world you must find acceptable tradeoffs that sacrifice certain things you want for other things you (hopefully) want even more. The interest in Linux from ODMs like Nokia, Motorola, Panasonic, NEC, Sharp, and (I believe) Palm is an attempt to cope with a market reality that has much different tradeoffs from the time that the original Palm OS, or even the Garnet and Cobalt OSes were developed.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
* Palm's not interested in linux on the device
* The Maemo platform isn't an indicator
* PalmOS doesn't scale and neither Palm nor PalmSource now how to get around that. PalmOS is dead because its time has passed. ALP, if you ignore the emulator wart, is at least an attempt to match an OS to the reality of modern hardware.
* You do risk data loss with data in nvram
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
* Palm's not interested in linux on the device
My crystal ball says your crystal ball's cracked.
Of course it also told me that Chicago would win the SuperBowl with Michael Jordan playing quarterback in the second half. That being the case, I'm always interested to hear what informs peoples' hunches (on this topic in particular). Is there something behind it, Marty, or just a SWAG?
* The Maemo platform isn't an indicator
Of what? At a minimum its an indicator of an upper bound of performance of an X Windows system on given hardware. If you're saying you don't think it tells us anything about ALP's requirements or maybe that you doubt ALP would be as fast on a 330MHz/128MB Internet Tablet as Maemo is, well, I'd say that explains why you started by pulling out your crystal ball.
* PalmOS doesn't scale and neither Palm nor PalmSource now how to get around that. PalmOS is dead because its time has passed. ALP, if you ignore the emulator wart, is at least an attempt to match an OS to the reality of modern hardware.
I don't think there really is a good way to make Palm OS "scale" if by that you mean have legacy Palm OS applications do things like run concurrently in separate processor tasks or keep all data and applications in RAM at all times as the system was designed to do. It sounds like we agree that ACCESS isn't trying to make Palm OS scale in those or any other senses you might have for that word. There are lots of great Palm OS applications that people depend on that don't really need to scale and the Garnet VM is a reasonable way to transition Palm OS users and developers over to the more powerful native Linux end of the platform. Transitions are good, and they ought to die in their time if they're doing their job.
* You do risk data loss with data in nvram
Heh, well, you don't need a crystal ball for that one.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
Is there something behind it, Marty, or just a SWAG?
[/blockquote]
I wouldn't say that it was "just" SWAG, no ;) It's an SG, but not all that WA.
[blockquote
At a minimum its an indicator of an upper bound of performance of an X Windows system on given hardware
[/blockquote]
Get your hands on a recent Zaurus. It'll change your mind about that.
Maemo's a one-off for Nokia, and I don't think they've put much resources into optimizing the performance of X on it.
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
Well, given the recent introduction of the Nokia 800, a two-off, at least.
And Nokia's got a dedicated team of engineers under Ari Jaaksi doing work on Maemo specifically for the Nokia tablets.
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
Get your hands on a recent Zaurus. It'll change your mind about that.
Better still, then. My point (getting back to the OP's question) was that Maemo is proof that Linux + X Windows does not seem to require gobs more memory or processor cycles than ODMs are already building into their devices.
Maemo's a one-off for Nokia....
Not sure we really know that. Not even sure Nokia does yet. As Lefty points out, they watched what happened with the 770 and decided they needed to throw even more resources toward it. If I were Nokia I would be pretty disappointed that S60--in particular S60 on the N-series "computers" (they don't like to call them phones anymore)--hasn't inspired more interest from developers. While I don't see Nokia mulling any kind of abandonment of Symbian, I do think that Maemo was an experiment to see if an open source OS could foster an application ecosystem that excites a bunch of consumers about something more than voice, SMS and ringtones. At the very least we can say they weren't satisfied that the 770 was an adequate test of the new market for non-phone mobile computers. One more Maemo-powered device from them and I think we can safely say that Mr. Jaaksi has succeeded in getting Nokia's attention and that Maemo will be going places.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2007/02/high-level-roadmap.html
A three-off? A charitable outreach program for Linux geeks?
And by the way, who says Nokia is the only company that can release products that leverage the Maemo platform, which after all is open source? This one looks awfully suspicious, don't you think? http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkontherun/2007/02/chinese_firm_to.html
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
>cackles of insanity<
Owners of the N800 are saying of *it* that the new horsepower now represents the *bare minimum* for that crap.
They'll be saying that about Tablet OS2008 on the (god help us all) future(?) N900 too.
The ALP stuff we've been seeing. Is that final, optimized code? Or is there more licensees can squeeze out of it when they attach it to their hardware?
Linux is worse than dealing with DOS. Upon hearing or reading the word "dependencies," I want to slit my throat... I hope ALP shields the users from all that.
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
He also said, and I quote, the N700 was "good."
Credibility minus zero.
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
My point (getting back to the OP's question) was that Maemo is proof that Linux + X Windows does not seem to require gobs more memory or processor cycles than ODMs are already building into their devices.
Ooops. I read your point backwards. I thought you were making the case that it showed Linux was a hog on embedded devices.
Maemo's a one-off for Nokia....Not sure we really know that.
Sorry, poor choice of words. I was referring to the fact that Maemo itself is a funky deal where Nokia is sort of in charge but there's a whole seperate open source project and it relies on a lot of technology, most notably the X windows implementation that Nokia doesn't seem to have done anything to tune.
Lefty and you are both right about it as a potential Nokia product line. (Although personally, I doubt they'll ever put a phone in it, and I doubt there's much market for it without one.)
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Based off of Linux really all that bad?
Your perspective about loading software on the Nokia tablets is a good one, though. The N800 is great for folks who either like just using the applications it ships with or who don't mind doing more leg-work than your average consumer user to make sure they've got all the supporting libraries they need to run an application they install. It's great to have shared libraries, but the Application Manager and application packaging needs to be designed so that any time you download an app that has a special library dependency it grabs that dependency, too. There are a lot of little things like this that need to be improved before the Nokia Tablets will be able to drive a substantial third party application ecosystem. It remains to be seen how much Nokia even cares about that (though they should if they know what's good for them!)
Like you, I'm hoping (and guessing) that ALP will be more user friendly in this and other regards.
Also, I agree with Marty: Maemo is not likely to be running on a phone any time soon.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
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iPr0n
Palm m125 > Palm Zire 71 > Tapwave Zodiac 1 > Palm Zire 72 > Sharp Zaurus SL-C1000 + 4gb MicroDrive + Palm Tungsten T|3 (1100mah)
My T|3 is too [i]sexy[/i] for me.