Comments on: Hawkin's New Device Expected Next Week

One to be sold at retail for, say, $299-$399ish. Basically drop the TX $100 in price and position this device as its replacement. IR, Wi-Fi, and BT support out of the box coupled with very strong VOIP functionality would make this the ideal uber-PDA the Palm faithful have been waiting for since the T|T3.

Then a fancier version of the same device (maybe with more onboard storage) and an integrated cellular data-only radio could be sold through the existing carrier channels.

There are still many people that do not need or want anything cellular or carrier-supported. Device #1 would appeal to them (heck, maybe Palm could do it as a smaller production run just sold at Palm stores/kiosks, Palm.com and maybe one or two larger retail chains like BB, CC or OD). For everyone else (ie current Treo users) Device #2 fits the bill.

I essentially agree with Ryan on this one. I see it as something about the size of the Nokia n770/n800-sized (or perhaps a tad smaller) with a 20gb internal hard drive, a 640x480ish screen, and some kind of intelligent downclocking power management that will make traditional color PDA battery lives look pitiful in comparison.

P.S. I don't see the LifeDrive as ANYTHING but an oversized, memory hobbled PDA. They just called it a "Mobile Manager" because the term "PDA" was beginning to look very 1999ish by 2005. I mean, what's the difference between 4gb of flash & 4gb of MicroDrive space other than the usual size/durability/power concerns? Palm just took a T5's innards and shoehorned in a MicroDrive and wi-fi. There was nothing inherently wrong with the LifeDrive that 64mb+ of RealRAM and 2gb of flash instead of the MicroDrive couldn't have fixed.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Note that PALM management OTHER than Hawkins has never said ANYTHING about the Next Great Thang.

This quote came from an interview that was originally dated before the LifeDrive came out. Note the "3 Lines," one in its infancy - it was the lifedrive. This 3rd line was such a flop ("infancy") that palm has distanced itself from its once 3rd line product. Palm appears to have allowed this misconception to continue on. The lifedrive was their first attempt at this new product.

It will be interesting to see how the lifedrive has evolved, after they have learned from their mistakes and their usual misteps in researching the market before they release a device.

For the umteenth time: The LifeDrive IS/WAS NOT Palm's "Secret Third Business". See this chart for Palm's own categorization of Disruptive (orange) vs Sustaining (gray) vs Breakthrough (black) devices The "Hawk" is Palm's *third* disruptive device.

http://tinyurl.com/266knf

For the umteenth time: The LifeDrive IS/WAS NOT Palm's "Secret Third Business".

Stop bothering us with the facts. We prefer our own version of reality. It's much more fun just to keep making stuff up instead of actually having to find supporting evidence.


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All else so far posted is wishful thinking and bizarro leaps of logic from "technology PR-fluff" to "lines of business".

Let's see . . . (1) Treo, (2) PDA, and . . . (3) Mobile Manager. The mobile manager line fits does everything that hawkins claimed it would do in the article (the fast connection was wifi). However no one wanted it. If this lifedrive was NOT the 3rd product then Palm should have been saying they had 4 lines! Unless they like to dismiss their current product lineup! . . . . one fully developed (PDA), one a teenager (treo), and two babies (Mobile manager/Lifedrive & the secret 4th! device). It is simply that hawkins missed the mark. It has its benefits (much like the treo in its infancy), it was still just a few years away .

I *think* Palm has finally learned the killer app is voice.

I think palms best bet would be to combine the PDA line and Mobile Manager line with a cell phone and sell it to carriers. Your

I agree that the "Mobile Manager" moniker (and the fact that Palm's web site sometimes refers to "Mobile Managers" in the plural) suggests that the LiveDrive was Palm's first tentative foray into this new category that Hawkins is talking about. But I don't expect the new device to bear much more resemblance to the LifeDrive than the first Treos did to the VisorPhone. For one thing, it's almost certainly going to be running a new multi-tasking operating system with an Opera 9 browser that can have several windows open at a time. I've also got reason to believe it's going to have some pretty attractive graphical capabilities we've not seen on any Palm device before. And given Sprint's peculiar announcement that they will be releasing "3 or 4 PDAs" on their 3G network (not handsets) in Q4, it could very well be the case that the new device has a cellular radio, at least in one incarnation.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Craigdts accurately stated the facts.

I've no problem with the statement of "facts". I love to see the supporting evidence on either side of the argument. But the "conclusions" are a whole 'nother thing.

I make these snide little comments only to poke fun of the arrogance I see in the conclusions. These statements of conclusion put forth as fact simply are not (fact). They are guesses and opinions and possibly right or wrong.

I think this really might be a western male thing. You spout your "opinion" loudly as fact in the hope that if you sound certain enough you can convince enough people to agree with you. If enough people can be convinced to agree with you, then you are "right". If somehow the "fact" you came up with turns out to be wrong, then you either act like you never said it or find some strange method for spinning it so that you were still right all along. (American politics is a perfect example of how this system "works".)

Alternately one might say, "I think that evidence A, B, and C points to the possibility that D is going to happen. It will be interesting to see if that turns out to be true."

Then again, forget that! That's no fun at all. Let's just keep spouting our opinion as fact and acting like we were never wrong when we often are.


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Ahem...

Craigdts accurately stated the facts.

All else so far posted is wishful thinking and bizarro leaps of logic from "technology PR-fluff" to "lines of business".

As noted before, I don't expect a new device, but an entire system.

[and probably not much more than fluff, if that, at the conference this week]

Palm can occupy themselves with the 700p patch, the 750 WM6 update, Vista-compliant Palm Desktop, and a WM6-powered version of the 755p all prior to the "big" October release(s).

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Sometime back - somewhere - I posited that the latest (giggle) incarnation of The Next Great Thang will be a dumb phone connected to servers somewhere - a LifeDriveII with the same connectivity is fine by me as well.

[for some reason Steve Jobs mentioned patenting much of what the iPhone does in his initial presentation of it - I thought that was...curious. It is to be remembered that we already know at least SOME of the functionality of the iPhone is NOT resident on the iPhone...I wonder if Jobs was aiming those "we got da patents, chump!" comments at anyone we're interested in...]

No, I expect the TNG to definitely be either WiMax'd or EVDO'd in regards to its connectivity. Either way, look for Palm to be cozying up to Sprint about as closely as Apple did to Cingular/AT&T.

P.S.

SV: What is your daily phone/PDA/device? Just curious.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Note the "3 Lines," one in its infancy - it was the lifedrive. This 3rd line was such a flop ("infancy") that palm has distanced itself from its once 3rd line product. Palm appears to have allowed this misconception to continue on. The lifedrive was their first attempt at this new product.

This is a "conclusion". It might be true; it might not be true.

The quoted material above that statement of conclusion is "fact", i.e. it has been established that it was stated by Jeff Hawkins.

If I am wrong about that, please show me the links that prove so. I doubt that you can at this point. If you do, I will readily state that I was wrong. But please don't think that pointing me to a string of other people's "conclusions" will suffice to establish it as "fact".


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May You Live in Interesting Times

The secret 3rd business revealed: "positioning Palm to be bought by Google."

Now that's a fact!


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Google is purportedly already in cahoots with HTC.

Why do they need PALM again?

Why do they need PALM again even if they are NOT in cahoots with HTC?

My profile may or may not reveal to you the first and last PALM PDA I owned (still own). I bought two of them at the time for some outrageous price like approaching $400 each - one for spousie, one for me. Essentially added in a bunch of contacts, played with some flight planning software, etc.

But mostly just kept it in my briefcase using up batteries.

Eventually saw the light, took it out of my case, removed the batteries, put it and everything I had for it in a Ziploc bag, and put it down in a large cardboard box with other old devices (like a 300BPS modem) on a shelf in the basement where it sits to this day.

Turns out I didn't need it at all - work and play I'm always near a desktop computer (minimally). When I'm neither at work nor play (?) I never have a need for such a device (*).

It was geek-thrill overkill buy that I had no need for since it was a few steps DOWN from what I already had amply available everywhere I wanted to use such functionality.

==========

(*) GPS, for example, is way cool in a plane - FULL of functionality that can be absolutely necessary (even life saving!) when you're "up there". But in a car it's just totally useless to someone like me - I know where I am with all local driving, I fully plan "long distance" trips, I don't go on off-road excursions. I don't have a need to "find the best night spot" WHILE I'm driving. Watching a cool GPS device show me where I already know I am might be...well...cool but it certainly isn't very useful.

I don't even remember the last time I used a calculator away from work or house. If ever.

==========

Of course, now I have a nice Sony-Ericsson 520A (I think that's what it is). It has all the "contacts" I could possibly need "on the go". It has a calculator and calendar and appointment thingee; don't know nor care how to bring them up but it has them! It's also sufficiently smart that it can run Java programs if I choose. And it can, though I don't use it, surf the 'Net with couple clickety-clicks so Google Maps =is= available should I really really need to find a gas station or hospital or something while "on the very poorly marked for these days road".

==========

But that's all entirely unimportant - I couldn't care less (nor do I know) what YOU use on a daily basis; it is irrelevant as long as what you POST makes sense or is well (or even somewhat) supported with links to external information sources.

I think it's one of 2 things.

1) A book sized tablet with an e-paper display for displaying web, documents, magazines, photos, internet, etc. with a tremendous battery life and good memory (8gb at least), and good content management from online store, and possibly storing all your stuff up there.

or

2) A very large storage device (40gb at least) that is fully pocketable and essentially all your stuff in a PDA format. Possibly instead of a large hard drive they will try to make you sync all of your stuff online and access it over the web, but my first instinct is that it will be a hard drive. This device will work well between home and office and make sure that all of your data is with you wherever you are, even if you're on your computer. That's including all your photos, mp3's, documents, really your whole life. Essentially the real life drive.

Well, I got my predictions in under the wire, can't wait to see what happens!

The clamshell/keyboard and formfactor is perfect for my needs. But it requires tft screen/memory/sd card/wifi/bluetooth/20 gig HD updates for an all-new 2007 version.

The tablet like UMPC format is silly.

I have a toshiba libretto U100 which would almost be perfect except for the poor keyboard and the overwieldly/bloated XP os, and it needs to be slimmer.

I only need a light palm os/linux palm os on a small device with a fast start up. Something near pocketable.

The death of the Handheld PC format due to Palm and Windows mobile was a mistake in my mind. It needs to be revived.

"You think that's air you're breathing now?" - Matrix.

This is, of course, assuming Palm and/or their theoretical suitor still wants to be a hardware company and not merely a services provider.

P.S. On that note, I think Palm is rapidly approaching the breaking point with the 755p. I've never seen a mobile device preloaded with so many icons and shortcuts and crippled trialware apps. It looks like Palm has realized they are behind the curve hardware and OS-wise so they are going to try to emulated a modern bloatware-laden PC! I wonder if this is a Sprint thing, a Palm thing, or....both? And IF Verizon offers the 755p WILL they stuff it with so much junk? I somehow doubt it. Verizon didn't even put VersaMail in ROM on the 700p!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

You hit it right on the head, craigdts.

And now, as another poster noted, they changed "Mobile Manager" to "Mobile Companion" as their link on their website, further reinforcing the thought.

So, okay, if at first you don't succeed...

Q: Is this the "third baby" that you have talked about working on?
Hawkins: It is. I actually think it's going to be the biggest one of all.

Ok, can you finally just shut up about what the facts are? Or are you now going to go into "whirling dervish" mode to show us all how the Foleo is the LifeDrive II?

(We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.)


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Here's another story for the Hawkins mythology. We've all heard about the "wood block" Hawkins used when he designed the original Pilot; carrying it around and 'using' it to get a feel for how a digital organizer should be. There was a very similar story for the Foleo. Five years ago (!), Hawkins and Peter Skillman got together and grabbed a PC keyboard and set it on top of a photocopier. The took that piece of paper, cut it down to the size they wanted, and then taped it to a piece of foam board, then using some tape to make a hinge to attach the 'screen.'

So let's see, Hawkins and Skillman created a mock up of the Foleo five years ago that included a full size keyboard and hinged screen. Hawkins states clearly that this Foleo is the "third baby", the "third leg", the product that is in its "infancy". The Foleo bears about as much resemblance to the LifeDrive as an elephant does to a duck. The LifeDrive does bear a striking resemblance to the rest of the PDA line in size, shape and features. And after all of that, you somehow want us to suspend any sense of reality and to somehow conclude that the Foleo is the LifeDrive II?

What a nut!

Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

It's hard to understand how "bigger than a PDA, smaller than a UMPC" qualifies as something top secret and brand new. I bet the people at Palm are cursing the iPhone which, I bet, stole their thunder. That really seems like something innovative and it's going to make anything Palm comes up with look like something a child made. Poorly.

That's my prediction and I'll stand by it.

Actually, all this is the the release of the much belabored Treo 800g.

Pat Horne

Nah - THAT didn't steal their thunder, the UMPC lines did. You have to remember UMPC is a NEW thing that overshadowed the LifeDrive like there was no tomorrow.

-- http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/32084

I think PALM will try to take "the network IS the computer" concept a little further than that.

Bill Coleman was brought on board as a director for SOME reason!

- Music playback (incl. support for Online Music Store)
- Video playback (screen size 640x480 or 1024x768 would be nice)
- No hard disk, 4 to 8 GB of Memory instead
- build in GPS incl. TomTom
- Encyclopedia, like Wikipedia offline
- Dictonaries
- Backup of PIM, EMail, etc. (like the Danger Hiptop)
- Instant Messenger
- Bundled with earphones, bluetooth keyboard, external loudspeakers, etc.
- Build in Camera (3 megapixel or more)
- I would not need a phone, but it won't sell without it.

III-->V-->m500-->T|E-->T|T5-->LifeDrive

Woohoo!

Wednesday can't come fast enough.

LBS (Location Based Services).

Where the hell did that concept come from? These guys must have inside info. They could not have simply pulled that out of their hats. Suspicious.

LBS sounds intriguing. I don't know what it is in real life but I started imagining the following...

Hawkins talks about wanting to make the computer think like a human mind. Well, I started thinking on how I think. Then I realized that I need info based on where I physically am at any given time and what time of day it is. What if LBS meant that my Palm would use GPS to know where I am e.g., say I am at work, it would then show me all my work related to do in a highlighted color and at the top of my PIM lists? If I am at the grocery... my shopping list? I am going to bed... would it pull up my eBook or favorite talkshow mp3 and wait for me to start playing it? Is that what Numenta is about? A computer than learns how to present relevant info to me and prioritize resources based on time, location, temperature, detection of repeated tasks, etc?
Could it connect to the Internet check my weather based on GPS and warn me to bring an umbrella? Could it intelligently track gas prices and tell me where to go buy the cheapest gas all while considering the cost in time and gas to actually reach and comeback from that gas station? The possibilities of optimizing resources and time are truely thrilling.

If this is not what Numenta is about, then I want the above to be invented.
Scientists and programmers unite and let's get the above mobile computing revolution started!

Google's version is, of course, a bit more pragmatic, and consists of targeting ads to you based on where you are as well as who you are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Location-based_service covers the topic.

If LBS is part of the 3rd business, Palm is late out of the gate.

May You Live in Interesting Times

LBS (Location Based Services).

Where the hell did that concept come from?

I've mentioned a couple of times that Palm was posting some positions for engineers with GPS experience back near the beginning of the year. One example read like this:

Duties/Responsibilities:

Responsibilities will include design, implementation, and optimization of Location Based Service (LBS) SW for our Windows Mobile, Palm OS, and Linux based smart phones.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

That suggests the software will not be ready for prime time til...when...?

[yes yes yes - that question assumes "ready for prime time" is a standard PALM target for released software]

That suggests the software will not be ready for prime time til...when...?

It doesn't suggest anything about when or even if the software will be released. Could be never, could be three years from now, could be three days from now. A job posting gives you a clue about what a company is working on but tells you nothing about when they started working on it or whether it is an actual product in the works (could be just research). My point was that this, as well as a couple of brief comments about LBS by Palm execs probably account for the discussion over at Brighthand.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Check again on Wednesday!

All else can wait.

Care to give the poor unwashed PIC masses a mini review of how the LD is doing now that it's been turned into a LifeFlash?

Did you use the "regular" blue Sandisk 4gb CF card?

I haven't followed the scene very closely but I remember being majorly bummed that you could not (at the time) swap out the MicroDrive for a really flash Ultra III or IV CF card or something.

Palm really should have skipped the LifeDrive entirely and released two versions of the TX, one like the current model but earlier in '05 then a quick followup model in fall '05 with 2gb of internal flash and trumpeted its PIM/media (not just mp3)/gaming/online capabilities.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

And... *near crying*... OLED!

Pat, if this is your wild imagination and idea of a sick joke, please tell us.

Seriously, bud, if you got a leak from somewhere then by all means point us in the right direction!

I don't see how it can be OLED-enabled, 60gb HD-enabled, and touting a keyboard AND a landscape screen and STILL be pocketable at all.

And no word on voice functionality either!

And leaving off the IR functionality would be a very foolish move considering all of the trouble they've gone to to maintain compatibility with "well written" legacy FrankenGarnet apps. Think of all of the old apps with "beam" commands!??!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

You took the words out of my mouth.
How can it have a keyb + widescreen? Unless it is one of those sliding-out-from-underneath keybs.

OLED... man o man, if that is true, it will be a revolution.
It will bring true movie and picture playing on a mobile device, a first outside Japan (latest Clie is oled).

OLED means longer battery life, thinner, true blacks (a necessity for movies), fast refresh rates, rich vibrant color, closer to the surface pixels, WIDE VIEWING ANGLES (C-R-I-T-I-C-A-L)

Honestly, OLED alone will dramatically boost sales of any new Palm device. It is THAT important.
You will start seeing people standing (hopefully they are not retarded and thought about make a design than can STAND up on a desk.. sigh.. why do I get a funny feeling about this..) up their new Palm on their desk, kitchen table, they will play TV and movies while doing other things e.g., playing on the computer, washing the dishes, running on the treadmill. Etc. It WILL become a first time true mobile multimedia device.

I know this may sound off coming free me, but I hope it also has voice cellular in it so it can draw the support of Treo owners. I have no problem with telephony, in fact I see it as the present and the future of mobile computing, my quarrel with abandoning PDA and going all Treo is that the Treo is not a device tailored for a powerful and optimized multimedia-centric mobile device.

I haven't used IR, ever.
Well actually I used it 1 time to test NoviiRemote.
I think it is time to retire it.

Bluetooth v2 might be better than WiFi. For use in the home and gadget (wireless headphones, keyb).
And WiMAX, or EVDO for anywhere high speed.

Wikipedia says --->
Bluetooth 2.0
This version, specified in November 2004, is backward-compatible with 1.1. The main enhancement is the introduction of an enhanced data rate (EDR) of 3.0 Mbit/s. This has the following effects:[6]

* Three times faster transmission speed—up to 10 times in certain cases (up to 2.1 Mbit/s).
* Lower power consumption through a reduced duty cycle.
* Simplification of multi-link scenarios due to more available bandwidth.
* Further improved (bit error rate) performance.

I was being incredibly sarcastic. Sorry Vamp - sometimes its hard to convey in text...

Oh gawd!

You DO realize (*) how fast your post is going to spread across the 'Net, right?

[and a corollary about this is: You DO realize how hard it's going to be for PALM to meet the expectations of so many made-up-on-the-fly features of your and others' posts, don't you?]

==========

(*) I know, I know, just another datapoint for your Psych PhD thesis, but sheesh!

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=143934

Giggle.

Duh. Zauruses were pocketable. And iPods sport *80GB* HDs.

As for what he wrote, people who spread rumors like that should be horsewhipped!

I came into this expecting a *link* to a believable source. Instead it comes from the same guy who used to deprive his wife of sex by staying up nights Photoshopping fake PDAs.

Puhleeze.

No, far more likely given Palm's usual track record is a largeish 480x320 landscape TFT LCD, a slightly-larger-than-Treo keyboard, a 20gb HDD, and EVDO + BT 2.0 without wi-fi.

I think the key consideration here is voice. Will it be a voice-centric design like the Treo's candybar? Or will it have voice as a mere secondary role and be like a modern Tungsten W (voice only via headset--in this case via Bluetooth)? Or will it omit voice entirely and go for a strong data-only push?

Ya know, the more and more I think about it (and experience it), I still think voice is SO critical (at least for me) of a killer app that it should be left to dumbphones. Sound quality, call volume, speakerphone clarity, etc. apears to be getting worse on each subsequent generation of cell phones (especially smartphones).
Between the carriers' overloaded networks and the arms race to roll out wireless broadband instead of tweaking things for good-soundng (I wish I could find the report I read a few months ago to back me up) voice, it seems like voice-while touted as THE killer app-is increasingly being shortchanged. It'll be quite some time (if ever?) before I experience a smartphone as clear-sounding as some of the classic tri-mode CDMA Motorolas such as the V710/V3c/Startac 7800w.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Cane, you are wrong as always. The deal is exactly opposite. I receive services based on the number of news releases. You came crawling back to PIC from your Scandanavian disaster, b/c you new where the hot leaks were at. No pun intended. :-o

I'll have one of my people release a few pics for you tomorrow!

Pat Horne