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Comments on: Foleo VPN and Avvenu Service Announced

Palm has announced two additional third party Foleo applications today. Both companies have previously made their applications available for the Palm OS and Windows Mobile platforms and are now bringing their tools to the Palm Foleo.

Avvenu has created a Access 'n Share service for the Foleo, which enables Foleo users to remotely access digital content and files stores on a work or home PC. luefire will also be bringing its mobile VPN software to the Foleo. Palm and Bluefire are working together on a VPN software client security solution. Read on for the full details.

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Palm should buy Avvenu

craigdts @ 6/26/2007 10:34:46 PM # Q
Why in the world do they not buy them? This will be the key feature of the foleo.

Will I be able to run apps that are on my home computer? If so, I will be buying several Foleo's and give them to my employees to edit files and keep track of my business.

This really peaks my interest for the foleo. IF I can run the programs on my home computer using the foleo and treo, I will upgrade my home computer and buy several foleos to give out to my employees.

The foleo is looking better and better.

RE: Palm should buy Avvenu
LiveFaith @ 6/26/2007 11:34:59 PM # Q
Craig,
Are you saying that the progs run on the local PC/Mac/LinuxBox and the Avvenu service works the Foleo like a dumb terminal to the action? I think that would be a killer system.

But, I think the concept here is remote file access. Here is how it's worded ...

Anytime, Anywhere
Once you've downloaded Avvenu Access 'n Share on one or more of your computers, accessing your stuff is a snap. Use your mobile phone, PDA, or any web-enabled computer, and in a matter of moments, you can get that file you forgot, start listening to your music, or check out the photos your friend just sent you.

... key words are "accessing", & "get" etc. No mention of "operate" or "run" or "control" that I've seen.

Anyone out there using this on a Treo or PDA? Sounds interesting.

Pat Horne

RE: Palm should buy Avvenu
pascanu @ 6/27/2007 5:05:16 AM # Q
The one thing that would make Foleo a hit would be a VPN solution out of the box, easy to install on any PC (Mac? Linux?), so that you could remotely access your home/work computer. In this case you wouldn't need processing power, all you need is a good data connection. But then you would need 3G (at least here in Europe...), and Palm still hasn't got a 3G Treo.

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72 -> Treo650
Users should buy Avvenu?
rmhurdman @ 6/27/2007 8:51:23 AM # Q
So what is the true cost of ownership of the Foleo? If nothing comes "built-in", then it's $599 (unless you get the $100 rebate) + software costs ($20-$30?) X 5 or 10?
How much software do you have to buy to make this thing really useful? So far, it's:
1. The PIM suite
2. The games
3. The VPN
4. The remote access
...

This will appeal to the same people who buy PCs, kit cars and home upgrade projects, i.e. do-it-yourselfers. So much for the Zen of Palm.

And that is why Palm isn't competing with the iPhone. The iPhone is for people who want things that "just work". Palms are for people who don't mind buggy phones that don't get an update for over a year, if at all.

RE: Palm should buy Avvenu
cervezas @ 6/27/2007 10:00:28 AM # Q
craigdts wrote:
Why in the world do they not buy them? This will be the key feature of the foleo.

I agree that this is a key feature, but why should Palm buy the company? I'd rather they focus mostly on good system development and let companies with proven capability in delivering specific applications and services focus on their own competitive advantages.

Agree with Pat here: Avvenu isn't a remote control solution like PCAnywhere or VNC. But now that there's a VPN client available it's probably a no-brainer to port a VNC client to the Foleo. There are so many good free/open source VNC clients out there.

The one thing that would make Foleo a hit would be a VPN solution out of the box, easy to install on any PC (Mac? Linux?), so that you could remotely access your home/work computer.

I totally agree that this would be a major coup for Palm. It needs to be something that tunnels securely through any firewall without having to reconfigure the firewall and it needs to be totally simple to setup. I've used LogMeIn to log into remote customers' PCs and it meets these requirements very well, but the Foleo should have a native client that is a first-class application rather than one that runs in the browser like LogMeIn.

Having said that, Avvenu has certain advantages over remote control software and it fits better with Palm's vision that your mobile is morphing into your primary PC. Avennu works by synchronization, so you have on your person all the files you've designated to sync up even if you don't always have a decent wireless connection available. You also have the option to get the service that lets you sync up even when the remote PC is turned off, which could be very helpful for a lot of folks. And running a native application with local data is always going to be a better experience than running a remote session on another machine (even over WiFi). Even if it doesn't let you run QuickBooks from your Foleo like a VNC client will, it is much more of a "it just works" solution to accessing your remote data than VNC ever will be. For Palm's target market that's probably what is most needed.

Whatever else you might say about Palm's product strategy these days, you have to admit they are very focused on cutting the strings that pull you back to using your PC. With the advent of Palm Backup you don't need it to back up your Treo anymore. With Foleo you don't have to resort to a PC to get a full keyboard/full screen computing experience. And with Avennu and Bluefire you can use your home or office PC as network-connected storage for your Treo and/or Foleo. Obviously, Foleo's got its work cut out for it when it comes to cultivating a big library of applications and it's not in any case intended to replace your PC. But little by little you're going to find fewer reasons to go back to the office or to lug around and/or pay for a full Windows laptop.

Just keep snipping those strings, Palm.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm should buy Avvenu
pascanu @ 6/27/2007 4:01:41 PM # Q
It needs to be something that tunnels securely through any firewall without having to reconfigure the firewall and it needs to be totally simple to setup.

Hamachi is the first thing that comes in my mind...

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72 -> Treo650

Reply to this comment

If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 1:11:42 AM # Q
It's kinda pathetic seeing Palm's marketing wizards trickle out these software announcements one by one in an effort to generate some buzz over the FOOLeo. Reminds me of the marketing strategy that HandEra came up with for its HandEra 330: gradually unveil small parts of a photo of the device until the whole picture was visible. The only problem was that in the end, it turned out that the 330 looked hideous. The "strategy" backfired. Similarly, Palm would have been better off announcing a solid collection of applications that run on the FOOLeo at the same time that Jeff Hawkins had announced the device.

If Palm was serious about marketing the FOOLeo as a Linux laptop replacement they would have either created from scratch or licensed applications in all the major categories that would be useful on a device like this. Everything shipping on the FOOLeo should be equivalent to being best-of-breed:

- An email program (that actually works completely independent of a Treo).
- A rocksolid VPN application.
- A security application along the lines of TealLock.
- An application for saving and streaming files to/from a personal online folder. The streaming capabilities should extend to MP3 (as Avvenu is currently beta testing with its Avvenu Music service) and video, allowing users to create their own private music and video stations.
- A complete set of PIM applications.
- An online web site with PIM that allows sharing of calendars (remember WeSync? Why did Palm let this die and then sell its rotting carcass off for pennies on the dollar?).
- Available IMAP and web-based email.
- Free server space for purchasers of FOOLeos (e.g. 1 GB free, $50/year for an additional 10 GB).
- A multimedia (video and MP3) application.
- A button-launchable Wi-Fi finder.
- A tabber browser.
- A file manager as powerful as Resco Explorer.
- A weather widget.
- An application like Vindigo for quickly parsing and presenting location-based entertainment and dining information.
- etc.

Palm doesn't have luxury of time waiting for a so-called Palm Economy to spring up around the FOOLeo and fill in all the software gaps. Furthermore, once users realize that they'll have to spend hundreds of dollars more on third-party applications in order to get their FOOLeos into a functional state it will be even more difficult to convince them that the FOOLeo is worth spending upwards of $1000 on instead of just getting a small laptop.

In the past, PalmOS power users have hunted down and installed apps like Mergic VPN, Resco Explorer, TCPMP, ChatterEmail, NetChaser, TealLock, WiFile, etc. to cobble together a viable mobile platform. Palm, on the other hand started with a clean slate with the FOOLeo and had the opportunity to build a solid, integrated platform with all this functionality included out-of-the-box. Instead, it appears that they have once again taken the lazy way out and left it up to developers to do all the hard work in coding these applications as well as left up to end-users to hunt around and cobble together all of the applications needed to create a functional device. SHAME on Palm!

What the he11 are Palm's hundreds of so-called software "engineers" doing all day? They aren't fixing application bugs, they aren't fixing OS bugs, they aren't designing new applications, they aren't fixing the Palm Desktop, they aren't fixing the deficiencies in Palm's online services...



TVoR

RE: If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.
VampireLestat @ 6/27/2007 1:27:29 AM # Q
TVoR,

You want a Foleo, like I do.
I am buying one and I know you will as well.

You are too curious to not try.
Don't reply to this and paint yourself into a corner by saying "NO!" then end up never buying one.

The Foleo is going to be a huge success in the long run. Watch and see.

RE: If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 3:35:48 AM # Q
TVoR,

You want a Foleo, like I do.

Yes, me wants the precious... shiny... FOOLeo.

I am buying one and I know you will as well.

No offense, but I don't think you're the ideal candidate for buying the FOOLeo. But go ahead. It will give you PLENTY of ammo to biotch and moan about for the next year. Or 10.

You are too curious to not try.

Not really. Unless Palm had absolutely NAILED the software end of things it's hard to justify getting a crippled Linux laptop that weighs 2.5 pounds. If you've ever used a Fujitsu P1610 or an IBM X40/X60 you'll understand why anyone who can afford one of those laptop is ambivalent about the FOOLeo. If the FOOLeo was $300 I think I'd get one as a toy. But for $500 + likely another $200 in apps that won't run on any other devices I own, I'll pass for now. I could try to borrow a demo and post a review, but it would be pointless unless it had all the apps loaded and working.

Don't reply to this and paint yourself into a corner by saying "NO!" then end up never buying one.

Don't hold your breath...


TVoR

The Foleo is going to be a huge success in the long run. Watch and see.

RE: If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 3:38:22 AM # Q
TVoR,

You want a Foleo, like I do.

Yes, me wants the precious... shiny... FOOLeo.

I am buying one and I know you will as well.

No offense, but I don't think you're the ideal candidate for buying the FOOLeo. But go ahead. It will give you PLENTY of ammo to biotch and moan about for the next year. Or 10.

You are too curious to not try.

Not really. Unless Palm had absolutely NAILED the software end of things it's hard to justify getting a crippled Linux laptop that weighs 2.5 pounds. If you've ever used a Fujitsu P1610 or an IBM X40/X60 you'll understand why anyone who can afford one of those laptop is ambivalent about the FOOLeo. If the FOOLeo was $300 I think I'd get one as a toy. But for $500 + likely another $200 in apps that won't run on any other devices I own, I'll pass for now. I could try to borrow a demo and post a review, but it would be pointless unless it had all the apps loaded and working.

Don't reply to this and paint yourself into a corner by saying "NO!" then end up never buying one.

Don't hold your breath...

The Foleo is going to be a huge success in the long run. Watch and see.

I'll take that bet.

TVoR

RE: If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.
cervezas @ 6/27/2007 10:56:34 AM # Q
If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.

You want Palm to eat its own young like Microsoft does. That might be fine if Palm was the size of Microsoft and could develop all its own applications or buy up dozens of companies. Personally, I think a more practical strategy is to give third party developers the assurance that Palm is not going to go into direct competition with them when they develop a new application or service for the Foleo. They're not going to attract the developers they need if they act like they're going to cut them off at the knees by making lots of applications free right out of the box.

What Palm needs to do is focus on cultivating the application download market. The things that make for a great application experience on Foleo also make it good for shopping for software and learning about what you can do with your Foleo and Treo. Palm would be smart to have a slick, Flash-driven web store that's a link from the Foleo's applications menu. (Ben said he was using WiiTabs, so it sounds like Foleo supports Flash.) Users should be able to install both Foleo and Treo applications easily from the Foleo. Palm should take no more than a 20% cut from the developer from sales made through this store, and they should give the customer direct access to the developer for service and other applications (both areas where web stores like PalmGear and Handango are killing their own market). The store should harness the social networking potential of online sales by providing a recommendation engine, user space for creating detailed reviews or lists of applications people have found useful in their line of work, etc.

Having said all that, I do think that the two applications/services announced today might be good to bundle into the Foleo. I'd really like to see remote access to your PC files be a marquee feature, not just wireless email. I don't kid myself that my personal needs are any indication of the market, but accessing your data remotely over wireless really seems like a key component of Palm's overall vision for where mobile computing is going. Why not highlight that broader vision now?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.
jeffhoward001 @ 6/27/2007 2:20:56 PM # Q
For those of you who think Palm should "just write all their own software and include it with the device", there are a couple things to consider.

"...include it with the device." - I'll give you that one. Palm should strike up some deals with Dataviz, Avvenu, etc and have some of this software on the ROM from the factory. This has been the tradition with their other lines, and I'm fairly confident that over time, this will become the tradition with the Foleo. I agree that the Foleo will lack some spunk during it's inital launch if they don't get some good software on the device. You can talk about what it *can* do all day long, but at some point we want to see it actually happen.

"just write all their own software..." - This is SO MUCH easier said then done. Many companies have tried this (most recent examples, almost all cell service providers), and most of the time the software sucks, and everthing is one-off (e.g. You will never receive an updated version of the software for your current phone, only a new one-off similar product for the next phone). There seems to be a common view that developing hardware is difficult, but slapping together some software is easy. I work for a large software company, and I can tell you from experience that making *good* software is really difficult and time consuming! Palm needs to focus on their core-competencies, one of which is designing new break-out devices (like it or not, the concept of the Foleo is a break-out device). I agree 100% it was a little weak that they didn't develop their own PIM software... That's something Palm has a ton of experience doing over the years, and it seems like they would have a good code base to use as an example for writing a linux-based version.

Last, it's easy to forget that timing is a huge element in launching a product. It's easy for us to troll around the forums speculating why they're doing the Foleo launch in this fashion, but timing can legitimately supersede other plans. They may have very well planned on developing their own PIM software and a standalone email client, but has to scrap it to meet their launch goals. In the software business, we always say, "never judge a product by it's first release". Now whether the public holds that same view is up for debate, but when a company attempts a new product like this, there is a lot to be learned during the first release. How they deal with the feedback from the first release (IMHO) is how the company can really earn their stripes.


Tungsten T --> Palm TX --> Foleo-mini??(like an LD-II with a small attached keyboard??)

RE: If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2007 2:28:30 PM # Q
> ...How they deal with the feedback from the first
> release (IMHO) is how the company can really earn
> their stripes.

Ah yes...like with the 700p.

RE: If Palm was serious, all of these services would be standard.
atrizzah @ 6/27/2007 6:22:58 PM # Q
Palm needs to MAKE software one of their core competencies. Palm is going to need something a lot more spectacular to sell consumers on the Foleo. I, like everyone else, was skeptical about the Foleo when it was announced. But the fact that everyone on this board is now trying to tell Palm what to do to make the Foleo work, instead of just ignoring it, shows that the device has some promise--if Palm steps up to the plate.

Everyone's been comparing the iPhone announcement to the Foleo announcement, so I'm going to run with that analogy--the reason the iPhone has generated so much buzz is that it's ready to go, right out of the box. The Foleo, on the other hand, is gearing up to be just like the Treo--a nice platform, but way low on features.

With Treo software providers thinking they deserve $30 for each of their little incremental cell phone enhancement apps, I can only expect that serious software for the Foleo is going to have a serious price tag. If that's the case, I say "No, thanks"

Be smart Palm. If you want the Foleo to have a chance, roll it out with all the multimedia, productivity, and communications software it needs to appeal to a wide range of consumers.

Peace Out
Alan

Reply to this comment

good start... but needs remote control!!

zuhmir @ 6/27/2007 4:55:28 AM # Q
anyone can just use this software:
http://palmvnc2.free.fr/

given that it would be compiled to foleo as well as palm os.

you can connect through unsecured connection, OR establish a Virtual Private Network for security.

it allows you true remote control and that is PRICELESS! if i could work on MATLAB from anywhere in the world just by carrying 1.1kg i would definitely buy a Foleo!

Reply to this comment

Purolator just delivered my unlocked Treo 680.

VampireLestat @ 6/27/2007 12:05:30 PM # Q
It is a beautiful and easy to use handheld and phone.
I like it a lot.
I feel like an idiot for having trashed it (especially before even have tried one).
I am angry at myself for having waited before buying one.
I apologize to all Treo fans and anyone who works at Palm for all the bad talk. You were right. I was wrong.

sigh

RE: Purolator just delivered my unlocked Treo 680.
mikecane @ 6/27/2007 3:19:09 PM # Q
And by Monday I will predict you will wish for an iPhone.

RE: Purolator just delivered my unlocked Treo 680.
freakout @ 6/27/2007 7:50:06 PM # Q
Why - so he can never install his choice of apps? So he can go through a cumbersome six-step process just to dial a phone number? So he can pay an extra $300?

Push your filthy Apple drugs elsewhere! :P ;)

RE: Purolator just delivered my unlocked Treo 680.
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2007 7:52:12 PM # Q
Ah...you're camping in a line, too, eh?

RE: Purolator just delivered my unlocked Treo 680.
freakout @ 6/27/2007 9:01:27 PM # Q
^^ Damn! You caught me out.
Reply to this comment

What IS the Foleo

sgiga @ 6/27/2007 12:46:10 PM # Q
I have used the Citrix remote client/control thing. It also supposedly will run on Linux.

Is the Foleo a wireless terminal? That would really be something. The usefulness of such a device could be just mind boggling, especially a small and light one, although this is not exactly new technology. But I don't really see where the Treo comes into this equation, or any phone for that matter, all you need is a GSM card in case there are no WiFi connection. Why would you need to sync anything to your phone? wouldn't that just be a redundant useless operation?

I am a bit confused right now about where Palm is heading with the Foleo. I see 3 scenarios.

1. Business scenario. The Foleo work as a wireless terminal to the servers in the office (a la Citrix). The smartphone in this scenario is redundant except to provide internet connection where there are no WiFi.
2. Private + phone. A keyboard and large screen for your phone + google yahoo etc.
3. Private, phone + home PC. Both 1 and 2 together + google yahoo etc.

Point is, I cant see any use for a smartphone (old fashioned ala Treo) in a business scenario, it will be redundant. And for private use a semi-dumb phone ala ordinary SE, Samsung, or iPhone kind of thing would fit better.

RE: What IS the Foleo
cervezas @ 6/27/2007 1:40:05 PM # Q
GPRS wireless cards cost $150-$200 and add a costly new wireless data account to your monthly bill. Wireless data is expensive as it is: I think most people would prefer to just pay once to get it on their smartphone and then be able to sync the data onto the Foleo or occasionally piggy-back off the phone's connection.

You make a good point that is probably lost on people who think that more features and more flexibility equates to a better, more successful product. Avvenu makes it so not only the Foleo, but also your home or office PC is a "mobile companion" because it turns its hard drive into network-attached storage for your smartphone (or Foleo). Ship the Foleo with a client for remotely controlling your PC--that is, so you can run all your PC applications from the Foleo--and the PC is back at the center of your computing life and your mobile once again relegated to a satellite role.

Palm wants to put more and more capability into your smartphone so that you start to get the picture that it increasingly liberates you from your PC. Foleo is designed to make people start thinking more along these lines. For many users giving you remote access to stuff on your PC will be part of that liberation. But if Palm highlights the feature of logging in to your PC remotely, now Foleo delivers a mixed message: "you need a smartphone companion and a PC companion." Might be a nice add-in feature (I'll install it as soon as someone writes a VNC client for Foleo) but I'm starting to see that it might be a bad idea from a product positioning standpoint to make remote control of your PC a highlighted feature of the Foleo.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: What IS the Foleo
sgiga @ 6/28/2007 1:27:31 AM # Q
What I mean is that syncing is basically only duplication of data. It IS a redundant operation, and something you generally do not want to do unless you make a backup. If I have a desktop, a laptop and a smartphone, then with the syncing paradigm I have to have 3 sets of data, but also 3 sets of data processing programs. If anything the Foleo should make you sync less, not more.

Wireless technology enables you to sync less. YouTube is the perfect example, streaming data. The Citrix technology is also a perfect example, "streaming" documents or a bit smarter "remote control" than basic remote control.

In a corporate business environment the data is always on servers. Then, if I bring my Foleo and Citrix-like technology, I don't need to sync anything, not mail or documents or presentation - nothing. The only thing I need to bring with me is the Foleo because I need a screen and a keyboard and a way to hook up to a projector. I don't need a laptop, but more importantly, I don't need a smartphone. A smartphone suddenly becomes irrelevant and an iPhone or any other kind of phone will do just perfectly. Just to make it clear; all phones today (at least all SE and Nokia except the cheapest segment) have both PIM and email, you don't need a smartphone for that.

For private use I could get by with the Foleo and a phone. But since I already have the Foleo, I have no use for a "smart" phone with a large arrays of keys. I need a cool phone.

RE: What IS the Foleo
cervezas @ 6/28/2007 7:19:32 AM # Q
What I mean is that syncing is basically only duplication of data. It IS a redundant operation, and something you generally do not want to do unless you make a backup. If I have a desktop, a laptop and a smartphone, then with the syncing paradigm I have to have 3 sets of data, but also 3 sets of data processing programs. If anything the Foleo should make you sync less, not more.

That might be good in an ideal world where wireless was always available and fast. But we don't live anywhere near that world yet. See my comment here on the same topic: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9482/#134373


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

The Foleo-killer is in da house

mikecane @ 6/27/2007 2:19:13 PM # Q
Well, Steve's house. Not mine, dammit.

http://tinyurl.com/2gvcsh

RE: The Foleo-killer is in da house
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2007 2:39:13 PM # Q
Very cool - how come all these things are coming out of the woodwork at the same time?

RE: The Foleo-killer is in da house
mikecane @ 6/27/2007 3:17:05 PM # Q
They aren't. The Flopeo was stuck in a time warp and has emerged years late.

Everything else is new new new.

With its miserable RAM and non-prevalent OS, I can't see the Flopeo selling when for just a wee bit more $, you can have something more powerful that runs the most popular apps. What, email syncing for keyboarding is the Killer App?

Bueller? Bueller?

RE: The Foleo-killer is in da house
BaalthazaaR @ 6/27/2007 3:32:04 PM # Q
There were Everun reviews on the web last month.
RE: The Foleo-killer is in da house
cervezas @ 6/27/2007 8:37:41 PM # Q
You can't be serious, Mike.

It's a cool gadget, sure, but it's just another neither-fish-nor-fowl UMPC. Looks like a fragile, slow-booting geek toy with even worse ergonomics than the OQO, which hasn't exactly been flying off the shelves, in case you hadn't noticed. I can't imagine anyone who would need a Foleo and would consider a device like this to be a substitute. If they wanted to work with Office docs or write emails with a thumbboard they could use a Treo for that and be done before the Everun was even finished booting.

As for the few people who would be willing to shell out for an Everun, they wouldn't have been Foleo customers even if the Everun had never been made: they're looking for... God knows what... Microsoft's long-awaited answer to the Newton?

Why on earth do you think this is a Foleo-killer?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

Foleo, cellular radio, and remote PC access

craigdts @ 6/27/2007 2:46:15 PM # Q
Palm could make this a stand alone device if they

added a wireless cell radio (EVDO or HSPDA) to the foleo. This would get around the problem of making Garnet compatible with GSM 3G for the short term until linux comes out.

They could sell these through the carriers with a $10-15 add on cost to your current contract. They could sell these to IT departments and take over the corporate environments. Anywhere you have cell or wifi coverage you can use your ultralight PC. No suprises for the business person . . . it is the exact same interface (windows) and all your files are in the same place and location so there is no confusion.

You data is in a central location.

Business can save on:
licensing fees (less windows apps to buy because your remotely using the PC), quickbooks, etc
laptops - this could kill the laptop market (with the right execution).

IF this is Hawkins vision it is visionary - a high speed connection can free people from redundant technology. Think about it, it is kinda silly that I have two fully functioning PCs - a home and laptop (or business desktop and travel laptop). Double the programs you have to buy and it's overkill.

This could really shake things up. Partner up with the cell carriers and palm will have the power/salesforce to enter and dominate a "new" market.

Regarding the EP deal, I think that this was the only deal palm could agree to because of the problems that NOK and Motorola were having valuing the Foleo business. Palm wants them to pay a premium for the Foleo Line because it can eventually rival and dwarf the treo line. It will be a matter of Nok and Mot accurately valuing this line.

Up till now people have been bidding on the treo line. No one would bid for foleo. Now they are going to have to or else Palm stick with EP and remains poised to benefit from unpacking the financial value of the foleo line over the next 3 years. However, this is unlikely to happen as Palm will simply sell to Nok, Dell or Mot.

RE: Foleo, cellular radio, and remote PC access
cervezas @ 6/27/2007 10:25:06 PM # Q
That's not the vision. Fortunately.

Remote control of a PC is a reasonably good experience over a broadband connection, but would be pretty awful over a cellular connection, even with EVDO. EVDO is fast for downloads, but it still has very high latency, so I expect there would be a long delay between when you moved the pointer or hit a key and saw the result of your input on the screen. It's much more efficient and makes a lot more sense to send file system data and files over a cell radio as Avvenu does than to try to send fast-frame video of a remote PC's screen. You could probably only have a dozen or so people doing this on a single tower before you saturated the network anyway.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Foleo, cellular radio, and remote PC access
freakout @ 6/27/2007 11:05:25 PM # Q
I'll second that. I use EZremote on my 680, so I can use Windows remote access to queue up torrents for download when I'm away from my PC for extended periods of time. It's horribly slow to respond - not just because of poky GPRS, but the high latency as well. A work colleague with a UMTS 750 reports the same problem.
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Palm kills off Treo Wi-Fi team??? W T F!!!

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 10:42:23 PM # Q
http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp?doc_id=127895


Several industry sources tell Unstrung that handheld maker Palm Inc. has dropped some -- or all -- of the team working on integrating WiFi in its Treo smartphone line and is now looking for replacements.

Palm has been slow to integrate WiFi into the Treo product line. It currently offers 802.11 connectivity via its Foleo companion device, but not on any of its smartphones, although WiFi is rumored to be in the new Treo 800w.

Meanwhile, rivals are starting to offer WLAN in their newest devices. The Apple Inc. (Nasdaq: AAPL - message board) iPhone out at the end of this week supports the technology, as do new Nokia Corp. (NYSE: NOK - message board) phones and upcoming handsets from RIM. (See Nokia Tries to Unlock US Market and Balsillie: WiFi & FMC 'Imminent' .)

Palm announced that it was laying off a small number of employees earlier this month, following a private equity firm's 25 percent buyout of the company. It appears that the WiFi team may be among the layoffs. (See Palm Sells 25% Stake.)

Our sources vary on exactly how widespread the cuts were to the team. One industry source says that the whole team has been canned. Another simply says that there have been layoffs.

A further industry source says Palm cut senior staff members, including the leader of the WiFi program and another senior engineer project manager.

"From our perspective it would be fair to say their WiFi technical team was decimated," the source says.

It's not yet clear how the changes might affect Palm's WiFi plans. The company hasn't replied to calls on the issue yet.


RE: Palm kills off Treo Wi-Fi team??? W T F!!!
freakout @ 6/27/2007 11:27:23 PM # Q
Was the job finished, was Palm penny-pinching, or was the team not getting the job done? Looking forward to see what Palm has to say about this, if anything.

Interesting, interesting...

RE: Palm kills off Treo Wi-Fi team??? W T F!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/28/2007 12:41:31 AM # Q
Fired the expensive (clueless) codemonkeys and outsourced to cheaper (foreign) codegerbils.

This is the kind of sh!t we also saw at PalmSource as things imploded there a few years ago...


TVoR

RE: Palm kills off Treo Wi-Fi team??? W T F!!!
freakout @ 6/28/2007 1:45:03 AM # Q
Ominous indeed...
RE: Palm kills off Treo Wi-Fi team??? W T F!!!
joeags @ 6/28/2007 2:13:19 AM # Q
This whole outsourcing thing is getting a bit pathetic. Sure, if you're IBM or some other big player in India, you can do quite well. But we have a nice sized team in India, and we seemingly keep losing our people on a monthly basis. Of course they're replaced in a day, but I'm finding that these folks aren't ready at all to work in the real world. Actually, their googling skills are great, because when we send a request, they're googling the answer on the net. What used to take an hour with our experienced team now takes 3 hours, but the company is still happy because we're paying them 1/5th the price. So I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Palm is doing. Transfer the best customer service workers that they have in India to the wi-fi team, and they'll have everything solved in no time...
RE: Palm kills off Treo Wi-Fi team??? W T F!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/28/2007 7:09:48 AM # Q
> ...I'm finding that these folks aren't ready at all to work in
> the real world...

From what I've seen offshored programmers tend to be DYNAMITE recently-graduated students from EXCELLENT schools - really topline.

And totally - let me emphasize that - TOTALLY inexperienced at programming.

I've YET to see well-designed (that is, designed BEFORE sitting at a terminal/workstation!), well-commented, coherent-flow code developed off-shore by one of these recent graduates, and I've seen quite a bit because, as you noted, they're really REALLY cheap compared to their on-shore equivalent (nearterm ONLY - longer term it is HIGHLY debatable whether they're cost-effective due to the considerable costs of Q/A, maintenance, and modifications).

> ...Actually, their googling skills are great, because when we
> send a request, they're googling the answer on the net...

Lol!

Twice in the deep-distant past I actually witnessed something like this - one guy, a (U.S.) contractor, was on the phone with a potential new client talking about how he was a C expert (he wasn't for sure - indeed, that was why he was shopping around for a new client - his contract had been terminated) - he had an open C programming book in front of him as he talked, paging madly through it to answer questions that were being posed by the person on the other end. And the other instance actually WAS an Indian programmer working with an H-1 or something here in The States - for some unknown reason he had printed out an email he had sent to a friend in India on our group's laser printer and left it there. When I went to pick up my own output and sorted through the pages to separate my output from others (no cover pages) I scanned over his - he advised his friend to "...enhance your resume - no one will check...".

Lol!

Whatta game!


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The Other Shoe Has Dropped

eboy @ 6/28/2007 4:51:24 PM # Q
The potential of the foleo idea is revealed. Full access to your home office computer when traveling and you use your mobile phone, that you are carrying anyway, to connect to it. The mobile professional will want this. It is yet another capability that Treo has that Blackberry does not.
The itoys are for playtime.

RE: The Other Shoe Has Dropped
Poopie @ 6/28/2007 4:57:03 PM # Q
Couldn't you have a bluetooth keyboard and some remote access software like vnc, GoToMyPC, Avvenu, NX, RDP, ssh, etc. and do this on an iPhone?

Couldn't you use GoToMyPC and any laptop?

It's a nice feature and all, but it's not like people aren't already doing this.

RE: The Other Shoe Has Dropped
eboy @ 6/28/2007 5:28:00 PM # Q
The foleo is the easiest, fastest and lightest way to do it. No boot up, big screen for the 40 somethings. The other thing is that it is a la carte computing in that you add only the capabilities that you need or want. I was puzzled by the foleo until now. This is a game changer.

RE: The Other Shoe Has Dropped
freakout @ 7/18/2007 7:06:23 PM # Q
Couldn't you have a bluetooth keyboard... and do this on an iPhone?

No. iPhone's primitive Stone Age Bluetooth capabilities were designed by & for faeces-chucking apes and thus doesn't support Bluetooth keyboards.

RE: The Other LEATHER BOOT Has Dropped
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/18/2007 10:39:03 PM # Q
iPhone's primitive Stone Age Bluetooth capabilities were designed by & for faeces-chucking apes...

Kinda embarassing when Palm's own codemonkeys are using iPhones instead of Treos...

RE: The Other Shoe Has Dropped
freakout @ 7/19/2007 1:01:52 AM # Q
Hey! You're speaking about the developers of Versamail here, one of the most stable, reliable... erm... uh...
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Fooleo VNC words from PALM contractor (I think that's what he is)

SeldomVisitor @ 7/18/2007 5:26:25 PM # Q
-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1311494&postcount=11

And he oughta come here and post them himself since THIS particular site seems more internals/system oriented than TreoCentral - perhaps there is not enough visibility here, however, for the proper buzz/viral marketing effect.

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