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Comments on: Linux Based Palm OS Due Sometime in 2008

As noted in our report from last weeks Palm quarterly conference call, Palm CEO Ed Colligan gave the first rough estimate as to when to expect the next generation operating system. Its release has not been delayed or postponed as a few other outlets are reporting, as Palm has yet to comment on release timing or provide any concrete specifics about the new platform.

In response to a question on broader platform strategy and new operating system development efforts Colligan answered:

Well, in general a new platform strategy I think that's, next calendar year is the timeframe. We are not going to get in to specifics on that. I think the reality is we will deliver some new smartphone products through the rest of this calendar year on both our Windows Mobile and Palm OS platforms. And product based on the new Linux-based platform that we are working on, that won't be until some time next year. [...] We are not waiting for next generation platform developments to deliver some great new products.
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Quite a leap

SeldomVisitor @ 7/2/2007 2:40:35 PM # Q
== "...when to expect the next generation Palm
== Operating system..."

from

== "...the new Linux-based platform that we are
== working on..."

Hmmm...

RE: Quite a leap
Ryan @ 7/2/2007 2:47:58 PM # Q
The real leap is the assumption that this statement somehow indicates 'Palm OS 2' has been delayed, when it was never given a timeframe to begin with.

I'm not sure how anyone who is reporting this understands the context here or has bothered to look into the facts.

RE: Quite a leap
luomat @ 7/2/2007 5:03:19 PM # Q
Anyone who has been using a Palm knows that the next version of the OS has been needed and promised and just around the corner for so long now it may not even matter.

"Sometime in 2008" is significantly delayed, not because Colligan refused to say when it would be out, but based on the competition facing Palm *today* vs when the Treo line first came out and Palm was cock of the block.



RE: Quite a leap
SeldomVisitor @ 7/2/2007 5:53:46 PM # Q
> ...The real leap is the assumption that this statement
> somehow indicates 'Palm OS 2' has been delayed, when
> it was never given a timeframe to begin with.

Oh, yeah, there's that, too.

Giggle.

RE: Quite a LeapFrog Leapster
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/2/2007 9:55:12 PM # Q
Reply to this comment

iphone should kill palm by then...

jca666us @ 7/2/2007 3:09:56 PM # Q
Has anyone on these boards tried the iphone out yet?

It is much more impressive than I expected - especially considering it's a version 1.0 product.

Iphone really illustrates how outdated and stale Palm's lineup is and demonstrates how mismanaged Palm has been.

After seven years Palm is going to tinker with Linux - they should have started this back in 2000.

Instead PalmSource had it's failed multi-year experiment with Cobalt - and we ended up with several iterations of FrankenGarnet.

I sincerely hope Palm has been taking notes and is able to get Linux off the ground - however with their miserable track record, will Palm be around long enough to make it happen?

Doubtful.

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
arctg @ 7/2/2007 4:11:22 PM # Q
After a very long time with with Palm (starting with a Palm III the week it came out), it is time to bid adieu. One major caveat. After a III, Vx and Treo 650 I don't think Palm has what it takes to make an innovative product in the next two years. Since also moving over to OS X in the last 4 years the iPhone is a no-brainer, however if there fails to be any 3rd party development in the next two years and assuming Palm hasn't disappeared from the face of the Earth I may return. I truly believe though that Apple will eventually release an SDK and that Palm may never recover.

It has been a fun ride and I'll check back every once in a while but the iPhone is just an amazing machine and experience.

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
pmjoe @ 7/2/2007 5:36:35 PM # Q
Yes, I got to try the iPhone out on Saturday. Very nice! The 4 main downsides: currently no 3rd party development environment = no 3rd party apps; AT&T is the only carrier; I'd still like to see an option for stylus input; very expensive ($500-$600, plus required 2 year contract, and apparently no insurance options). On the plus side: A REAL OS; slick GUI (you don't really need a stylus); beautiful PDA-like, hi-res screen; 4/8GB flash; iTunes integration = lots of former iPod users; multi-touch interactions/navigation; apparently good battery life; dual WiFi/mobile phone network support. It looks and feels like the PDA most here wish Palm would release ... and it's a phone too!

If Apple would open up decent 3rd party development options (and preferably minimum Java CDC support), I'd likely pick one up tomorrow. I suspect the lack of 3rd party apps and more general 3rd party security controls are going to make it a diffcult sell for enterprise environments.

I don't expect major iPhone changes over the next year, other than the possibility they'd open up a developer's SDK. They'll still be AT&T only, and I doubt the price will go down much if any. So, Palm still has a shot iff they can keep the current Treos cheap and plentiful while getting a real OS out by early next year. Then again, Palm has needed a real OS for 5-7 years and hasn't pulled one out of the hat yet.

iphone could save palm?
DarthRepublican @ 7/2/2007 8:49:30 PM # Q
It may seem counterintuitive but the iPhone may help Palm more than it hurts. Even before its release, AT&T users were claiming that their data connections were becoming faster thanks to upgrades to the EDGE network in anticipation of the iPhone's arrival. The iPhone is also paving the way by getting AT&T to allow it to have wifi -- so now Palm can no longer say that the carriers won't allow them to have wifi, they have to integrate wifi into the Treo just to keep up. I also have a feeling that the Foleo will turn out to be a popular accessory for the iPhone (assuming the devices can work together) once people get tired of that slow software keyboard.

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
jca666us @ 7/2/2007 9:29:47 PM # Q
you haven't used an iPhone, have you? Obviously you would know the keyboard isn't slow. Foleo a popular accessory for the iPhone? Close. I think the iPhone will be a popular accessory to replace outdated palm hardware running outdated palm software.
RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
mtt @ 7/3/2007 12:19:24 AM # Q
I tried out the iPhone for 20 minutes on Saturday. Absolutly amazing. Apple has clearly heard of the "Zen of Palm", and brought it to 2007. It is fast, smooth, direct, and easily usable. I've been using Treos since the 180 & PalmOS since the original HS Visor, and the iPhone just might make me forget them forever. Everything could be accessed easily, worked logically, with minimal menus & no lag. (The exact opposite of WinMob!)

It does have shortcomeings, don't get me wrong. It needs a few 3-rd party apps before it will work for everything I currently use my 700P for. There are also some minor but supremely annoying interface items that need tweaking. However, here is the real conclusion:

When you compare the BASE iPhone with the BASE Palm OS or Windows Mobile, there is no comparison - iPhone is perfection. Palm & WM's only real hope will be to expand into new features & hope Apple never adds to the iPhone as it is, or ever allows 3rd party development.

Handspring Visor, Palm V, Treo 180, Treo 90, Treo 600, Treo 650...
MTT

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
freakout @ 7/3/2007 9:03:55 AM # Q
When you compare the BASE iPhone with the BASE Palm OS or Windows Mobile, there is no comparison - iPhone is perfection (freakout vomits)

It doesn't even do freaking copy-and-paste!

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
jca666us @ 7/3/2007 11:43:57 AM # Q
copy and paste is hardly a killer app. apple designed the user interface of the iphone to take advantage of the multi-touch screen.

we know apple won't stand still, however palm has been stagnant for years.

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
TooMuch @ 7/3/2007 9:43:51 PM # Q
"copy and paste"?

:o) Oh yeah...That will surely kill the iPhone. :O)))

Another PC cultist who can't stand Apple. Now there is an insight. ;)

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
freakout @ 7/4/2007 12:04:50 AM # Q
copy and paste is hardly a killer app. apple designed the user interface of the iphone to take advantage of the multi-touch screen.

Multi-touch schmulti-touch. I clip snippets from the web and documents to paste into emails, memos and messages all the time on the Treo. Have fun re-typing stuff on your virtual keyboard...

we know apple won't stand still, however palm has been stagnant for years.

Irrelevant when Apple are asking you to pay $600 with contract for a device that lacks such basic features.

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
freakout @ 7/4/2007 12:06:53 AM # Q
"copy and paste"?

:o) Oh yeah...That will surely kill the iPhone. :O)))

Another PC cultist who can't stand Apple. Now there is an insight. ;)

Hey, even Macs can copy-and-paste, last time I checked. ;)

RE: iphone should kill palm by then...
twrock @ 7/4/2007 12:07:52 AM # Q
Actually, I'm really surprised to hear that the iPhone can't do a simple copy&paste function. I'm thinking the lack thereof is probably a bigger deal for quite a number of people who do more than just make calls, listen to music and browse the web. For anyone who uses their smartphone to get "real work" done, it's really important.

But of course the lack of cut&paste isn't going to make much of a dent in the sale of iPhones. The people who are buying it are not likely the kind who plan on getting any real work done on it. Just like the lack of true third-party apps isn't going to hurt the sales of iPhones to people who don't put third-party apps on their smartphone. It's all about self-selecting groups. I don't suppose Jobs care very much at all about the smaller group of true power users simply because they are a smaller group. He doesn't need them.

I on the other hand have no interest in a $600 phone/media device that I can't install any of my "critical" third-party apps on and that I can't even do cut&paste on. No thanks; I'm still shopping.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Reply to this comment

Lesson from Cobalt: NEVER make promises you can't keep...

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/2/2007 3:26:35 PM # Q
Palm has learned well. A product cannot be called "late" if an ETA is never given in the first-place.

The FOOLeo's PalmLinux + a version of POSE would seem to be the most obvious solution. In addition, licensing StyleTap Platform and integrating it smoothly into all upcoming Windows Mobile devices would allow Palm to completely (and almost gracefully) discontinue all of its remaining PalmOS only devices. (Why do you think Colligan laughs when people point out the decline in Palm's sales of PalmOS devices?) The future would then look like this:

1) Windows Mobile Treos that also ship with a PalmOS "emulator" (StyleTap Platform).
2) PalmLinux Treos that also ship with a PalmOS "emulator" (POSE).
3) PalmLinux FOOLoes that also ship with a PalmOS "emulator" (POSE).

Simplified lineup + simplified support, allowing Palm to act more as a "brand" than as a true hardware or software designer/producer. By rebranding HTC, etc devices as "Palm" devices, licensing/buying useful applications (or the people behind them) like ChatterEmail and StyleTap Platform, a leaner, meaner Palm has an outside chance of surviving independently while in competition with the Big Boys. If Palm makes these moves, they could potentially cut their workforce in half... early money on the "dead pool" says massive layoffs will occur by Spring, 2008.

Well done, Grasshopper Colligan.

TVoR

RE: Lesson from Cobalt: NEVER make promises you can't keep...
SeldomVisitor @ 7/2/2007 5:58:23 PM # Q
Why does anyone think there's some sort of PalmOS emulation on top of Linux on the Fooleo et al?

Or planned?

Got a PALM-sourced pointer to back up that belief?

[alas, The Kidlet is using my main computer right now so I can't easily check my personal copies of various PALM thingees to try to check for such a beast - but I don't remember seeing one]


TVoR's Zen of Palm koan
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/2/2007 9:22:28 PM # Q
Why does anyone think there's some sort of PalmOS emulation on top of Linux on the Fooleo et al?

You disappoint me, hengeem. There's more to the FOOLeo than meets the i.*

* Clue #1

Or planned?

How about already here (in gloious beta)?

The $30 million question is: "How stupid do you think it Palm is?"
The $44 million question is: "How do you make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?"
The $324 million question is: does someone have to lose in order for someone to win?
The priceless question is: "What is the sound of one Hand clapping?"

Got a PALM-sourced pointer to back up that belief?

Weaning time: you need to be plucked from the breast. Open your eyes.

[alas, The Kidlet is using my main computer right now so I can't easily check my personal copies of various PALM thingees to try to check for such a beast - but I don't remember seeing one]

Are you "a wee bit obsessed"?

Enjoy the game, hengeem.

SMITHERS, RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!


RE: Lesson from Cobalt: NEVER make promises you can't keep...
SeldomVisitor @ 7/2/2007 9:29:48 PM # Q
THAT'S the proof!?

RE: Lesson from Cobalt: NEVER make promises you can't keep...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/2/2007 9:52:45 PM # Q
Open your eyes, hengeem. Palm has said EXACTLY what they are doing. You just don't see it yet. You will.

Here's your final clue: Palm's representatives actually speak truthfully. And Colligan would be dead if he was a spy.

That's all. Please stop begging for scraps. You have shamed the House of hengeem, Grasshopper.

The eagle flys at dawn...

TVoR

RE: Lesson from Cobalt: NEVER make promises you can't keep...
dukat @ 7/3/2007 6:15:26 AM # Q
Whoa, what kind of drugs have been the cause of _this_ discussion??

IIIe -> m505 -> T3 -> Treo650 -> Treo680
RE: Lesson from Cobalt: NEVER make promises you can't keep...
freakout @ 7/3/2007 9:05:28 AM # Q
Are you the Keymaster?
RE: Lesson from Cobalt: NEVER make promises you can't keep...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 12:19:46 AM # Q
Are you the Keymaster?

The key is within YOU, Timmmmmmmmmay.




TVoZ

Reply to this comment

iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...

zuhmir @ 7/2/2007 3:26:58 PM # Q
iphone... so many bad reviews... bad call quality, poor camera, slow edge connection...
those are good news for palm! no all i have to decide is whether to buy Foleo or the next Palm T|Z

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/2/2007 3:35:56 PM # Q
You deserve the FOOLeo. In fact, get two FOOLeos and use one FOOLeo as the other FOOLeo's "companion". The last thing the world needs is a lonely FOOLeo...


TVoR

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
icesalmon1 @ 7/2/2007 4:01:26 PM # Q
Tried the iphone. It is not a smart phone at current version. It is just a feature phone with fancy UI and good looks. It requires two hands to operate. One hand to hold , the other to point. It is definitely a bloated device, the OS itself already taken 700MB with such a basic features. I can't imagine if it is going to perform like a Treo how large the OS is going to be.
Palm please update the UI, and slim the Treo down with metal material just like Palm V.

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
zuhmir @ 7/2/2007 5:53:23 PM # Q
TVoR,

You sound a little bitter about it... why is that?

I will never use the foleo as a companion to anything, not treo, not iphone and no, not even for another foleo :-) i believe a mobile phone should be as simple as possible, light, unbreakable... i do not want to go out carrying some fragile, easily scratched super expensive treo.. it is simply a compromise i can't except! to little to actually work on it, to big and fat to take everywhere! i want to separate the phone from the computer, give me a small compact nokia 3120 http://tinyurl.com/23n9en
small, super-strong device, i can really take anywhere in my back pocket without the fear of sitting on it... and when i travel, and need computing on the road, that's when i take the foleo! as a multimedia device, an office platform and as a teminal to my computer at home.

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
jca666us @ 7/2/2007 6:22:41 PM # Q
iphone is a failure? I'm certain some would very much hope for it, but it's too impressive or compelling to be called a failure.

Name one other phone which does half of what the iphone does - as well as the iphone does it.

OS X currently uses 700 meg. - so what; the phone comes with 4 (or 8) gig. One a 128 meg. POS device, that would be impossible.

At the end of 2008 after apple sells 10 million devices, let's see where Palm is with the Treo. They'll likely be selling them for $49 on QVC.

Blackberry is squeezing Palm from one end and Apple is squeezing them from the other.

Palm can't keep putting lipstick on their 10 y/o pig and selling it as an innovation.

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
ChiA @ 7/2/2007 7:46:25 PM # Q
iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...

Is that you Mr. al-Sahaf? Glad to see you've got a new job in Palm PR after your last job as Iraqi Minister of Information.

iPhone is just a feature phone with fancy UI and good looks. It is definitely a bloated device, the OS itself already taken 700MB with such a basic features. I can't imagine if it is going to perform like a Treo how large the OS is going to be.

Wow there are still some Palm apologists around, instead of sour graping about the iPhone it's time customers demand Palm bring its smartphones up to date by adding wi-fi! How many more years are the Palm Os faithful going to endure?

The whole point of the OS X is the flexibility of what software can be installed on the iPhone, note how quickly the YouTube widget appeared on the iPhone? It's a shame that the iPhone remains a closed system but theoretically any software that runs on a Mac will be able to run on an iPhone. By the way, how many feature phones have VPN and wi-fi? This is an OS in a phone Palm can only dream of. It does make me wonder about Cobalt. Funny how Apple could put OS X into a mobile device yet Palm shunned the presumably smaller, less sophisticated Cobalt.

iPhone will steal 20% of Palm's Treo sales tthis quarter. OUCH!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/2/2007 10:15:52 PM # Q
TVoR,

You sound a little bitter about it... why is that?

I will never use the foleo as a companion to anything, not treo, not iphone and no, not even for another foleo :-) i believe a mobile phone should be as simple as possible, light, unbreakable... i do not want to go out carrying some fragile, easily scratched super expensive treo.. it is simply a compromise i can't except! to little to actually work on it, to big and fat to take everywhere! i want to separate the phone from the computer, give me a small compact nokia 3120 http://tinyurl.com/23n9en
small, super-strong device, i can really take anywhere in my back pocket without the fear of sitting on it... and when i travel, and need computing on the road, that's when i take the foleo! as a multimedia device, an office platform and as a teminal to my computer at home.

Bitter? Moi?

It's not as if I'm an angry codemonkey that some vicious "rumor" claims Hawkins fired, right, hengeem?

If the FOOLeo was $300 and came with a complete PIM suite (on-device + online), a tabbed browser, a solid + autonomous email app, a decent media player and a PalmOS emulator then I would buy it and leave my ThinkPad at home 2/3 of the time. Really.

Newsflash: Treos are actually fairly rugged, given all the things they do. Or maybe I lucked out and got the one solidly-built Treo 700p Palm had built in 2006.

Smaller Treos are coming. Yes, they are 3 years too late, but better late than never, right? Right? RIGHT?

TVoR

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
freakout @ 7/2/2007 11:26:33 PM # Q
Newsflash: Treos are actually fairly rugged, given all the things they do. Or maybe I lucked out and got the one solidly-built Treo 700p Palm had built in 2006.

No lucking out - my Treos have all been very solid. (Let's not mention my 680's headphone jack...)

Smaller Treos are coming. Yes, they are 3 years too late, but better late than never, right? Right? RIGHT?

Right!

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
SeldomVisitor @ 7/3/2007 6:50:45 AM # Q
> ...smaller Treos are coming...

How much can you take away from a TREO before it is no longer a "Treo"?

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
mtt @ 7/3/2007 8:03:00 AM # Q
iphone... so many bad reviews... bad call quality, poor camera, slow edge connection...
those are good news for palm! no all i have to decide is whether to buy Foleo or the next Palm T|Z

Poor camera, slow internet, & poor call & reception quality are hallmarks of the Treo line. We put up with them because we want & need everything else the Treo does.

Handspring Visor, Palm V, Treo 180, Treo 90, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p
MTT

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
freakout @ 7/3/2007 8:07:43 AM # Q
I'll give you the poor camera - it's always sucked, even the 1.3mp ones - but the Treo has had 3G for awhile now, and nicely improved phone quality with the 680.

On that topic - has anyone commented on the 755p's audio quality yet? Is it better than the 700p?

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
Foo Fighter @ 7/3/2007 9:21:04 AM # Q
It is not a smart phone at current version. It is just a feature phone with fancy UI and good looks.

Eh...A feature phone with an OS and integrated software more advanced than any smartphone? You nervous fanboys will say anything to convince yourselves (and others) that iPhone somehow isn't going to steal sales away from your beloved platform. Colligan seems to know better, since he warned analysts that next quarter earnings will likely take a hit from iPhone sales.

The argument that iPhone somehow isn't a smartphone is my favorite. That's like Toyota unveiling a stunning new sports coupe, and GM's defense is that it's not really a car...it's a motorized personal transportation vehicle.

iPhone's only real shortcoming, from my perspective, is that it feels like a new house with unfurnished rooms. The living room is gorgeous, but the bedrooms are still bare. Then again that's the mark of great software- delivering a user experience so good it leaves you wanting more, rather than wishing what it had just worked (as is the case with Treo). It's clear that Apple intends to push software add-ons to iPhone over time. And analysts are saying that Apple will in fact open iPhone to third party software development, and plans to do so later this year. The initial goal was to produce a product that is stable, offers a jaw dropping user experience, and worked well. More than anything it is that last point that is key.

In that regard iPhone scored well. Even at this first generation stage it performs better, does more, and is far more innovative than even a fifth generation mobile platform.

If this ridiculous notion helps you sleep at night, pleasant dreams. But as you tip toe through the tulips of your little fantasy world, keep this in mind - Apple sold more iPhones over the past three days than Palm sold Treos in three MONTHS.

Having spent the past few days with my iPhone it universally mops the floor with any current mobile platform. The software is YEARS ahead of Windows Mobile, Symbian, and RIM. Palm's Gerber Baby OS isn't even in the same league with OSX, comparing my Treo 680 against the iPhone is just sad. Sadder still that iPhone gets vastly better battery life than the 680! Once you immerse yourself in the iPhone's UI and software you'll never want to go back to your current smartphone. For example, the fonts interface uses the same font rendering as OSX, so text is formatted to look exactly as it does it on your desktop, even scaling up or down using the "pinch" gesture. If I want to make the text larger, I just draw two fingers farther apart and the document expands/zooms. Contrast that with the blocky pixelated text on your Treo, BlackBerry, WinMob, Symbian device, and you'll want to vomit. It's a shame that iPhone isn't open yet to third party software because as it stands it would make an unbelievable eBook reader. When that time comes it could even do for eBooks what iPod did for digital music.

As for iPhone killing PalmOS/Treo - Blackberry already did that. While waiting in line on Friday I was stunned by the number of Blackberries. They were everywhere, and the majority of BB users I spoke with had upgraded from a Treo. Most were surprised that I "still" use a Treo. PalmOS is the Speak N' Spell of mobile computing. We grew up on it and then...grew up.

I don't see how Palm can survive against the lethal force of competition it now faces, and I'm not just referring to iPhone. The Palm brand name lost most of its value. The OS had its day and is fading into obscurity. They can't execute against changing market realities. Their "third business" is a dud.

-------------------------------
http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
SeldomVisitor @ 7/3/2007 9:47:59 AM # Q
> ...The Palm brand name lost most of its value...

I think that is key here; PALM started losing its name-strength when the competition started getting interested in the smartphone sector. Prior to that interest (or corporate decision that the sector was mature enough - thanks to PALM - to start attacking (*)) PALM had tons of name-value. Afte the Q and the Blackjack and the Dash and the Fooleo and now the iPhone, the reputation is shot.

========

(*) I don't swallow the fanboy lie that ONLY PALM can do what PALM has done. Instead I completely believe the Big Guys simply did their market research and decided the quantity of sales they were used to weren't going to be forthcoming way back when Handspring/Palm started up the Treos. Only after the hardware got to the point where cheap power was available did the Big Guys say "Okay, let's do it now". We're seeing the fruit of those decisions VERY rapidly.

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
cervezas @ 7/3/2007 12:32:45 PM # Q
The iPhone is an expensive toy. It's an iPod phone with a brilliantly fun user interface and will sell well on that basis. But Apple left a lot on the table for competitors like Palm when they decided not to let people personalize or business-enable their iPhones with 3rd party applications.

For the time being, only Palm can kill Palm. Hoping they don't do that. ;-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
freakout @ 7/3/2007 6:58:35 PM # Q
As for iPhone killing PalmOS/Treo - Blackberry already did that. While waiting in line on Friday I was stunned by the number of Blackberries. They were everywhere, and the majority of BB users I spoke with had upgraded from a Treo. Most were surprised that I "still" use a Treo. PalmOS is the Speak N' Spell of mobile computing. We grew up on it and then...grew up.

No touchscreen. No super-handy silent switch. No SDHC support. No A2DP. Yeah, great upgrade! :-
In that regard iPhone scored well. Even at this first generation stage it performs better, does more, and is far more innovative than even a fifth generation mobile platform.

Four words, Foo: No cut-and-paste. Wake me up when it has the basics. iPhone 2.0 might be the coolest device ever invented, but iPhone 1.0 is lacking in many important ways. And Apple could sell ice to eskimos, so I'm not swayed that it's a better product simply 'cause a bunch of cashed-up Apple Cultists and gadget geeks have swallowed the hype wholesale and bought half a million on them. If popularity is an indication of quality, then Britney Spears is one of the greatest musicians to have ever lived.

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
jca666us @ 7/3/2007 7:06:39 PM # Q
the iPhone an expensive toy?!?!? Palm is the one with a toy operating system. The iphone is glitzy, but the glitz is put to good use to improve the user experience.
RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
cervezas @ 7/3/2007 9:25:41 PM # Q
I don't buy that. I agree that Palm OS is in need of the overhaul that is, in fact, under way. But no amount of enjoyable eye candy can overcome the fact that the iPhone can never do anything more than what Steve Jobs says it will do. Anyone with the slightest interest in mobile computing has at least one, and often a few, 3rd party applications that really make it worth it for them to spend the extra money for something like a Treo. My Treo has a C compiler and programming text editor for developing Palm apps on it. My doctor's has ePocrates. Others have Docs to Go, Diddlebug, an eBook reader or a journaling, expense-tracking, or travel app that make the difference for them.

Not for the iPhone user.

All of the iPhone's other strengths and limitations pale in comparison to the fact that your iPhone will always be exactly like the one that Steve Jobs and ten million other iPhonatics carry. I'm sure it's a great iPod, but really, I couldn't care less.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
freakout @ 7/3/2007 9:39:20 PM # Q
My Treo has a C compiler and programming text editor for developing Palm apps on it. My doctor's has ePocrates. Others have Docs to Go, Diddlebug, an eBook reader or a journaling, expense-tracking, or travel app that make the difference for them.

Not for the iPhone user.

Exactly! My Treo has SydTrains, an excellently designed tool for looking up Sydney train timetables, and Planisphere, a handly little star-watching app. Niche stuff like this is what keeps me attached to it. When/if the iPhone is opened up I'll take a much greater interest in it. Until then, it's just a fancy, overpriced iPod.

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
TooMuch @ 7/3/2007 9:57:23 PM # Q
"I'm sure it's a great iPod, but really, I couldn't care less"

That's funny!

As a software provider you should be...in six months you will care when the dollars greatly dwindle of other smartphone sales due to the dreaded "iPhone." You ain't seen nothin' yet. Apple is just beginning my friend. And they have MO on their side, not to mention bookoos of CASH to make it happen. The train has left the station. iPhone has created a new road of competition. It looks like a major crossroad for other companies to me. I hear two long blasts followed by a short blast and another long blast...a new royalty has taken the right of way. :)

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
Gekko @ 7/3/2007 11:14:22 PM # Q
>Anyone with the slightest interest in mobile computing has at least one, and often a few, 3rd party applications that really make it worth it for them to spend the extra money for something like a Treo. My Treo has a C compiler and programming text editor for developing Palm apps on it. My doctor's has ePocrates. Others have Docs to Go, Diddlebug, an eBook reader or a journaling, expense-tracking, or travel app that make the difference for them.


the vast majority of people in the smartphone market never install a third party app.



RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
freakout @ 7/4/2007 12:01:05 AM # Q
^^ So that means the rest of us should be content with it? It's good enough for the masses, so it should be good enough for anybody? I think not.
RE: iPhone is setting record sales! good news for palm... NOT!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 12:01:37 AM # Q
>>>> ...smaller Treos are coming...

How much can you take away from a TREO before it is no longer a "Treo"?

A lot.

My definition of a "Treo" is a cellphone that runs PalmOS. Whatever the form factor.

Palm's failure to use such a broad definition has resulted in them recycling a four year old design into a ridiculous number of different models:

Treo 600
Treo 650
Treo 700p
Treo 700w
Treo 700wx
Treo 680
Treo 750
Treo 755p

Treo 800p
Treo 800w

Savagely beating a dead horse for so long is just plain SICK.

TVoR

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
freakout @ 7/4/2007 12:11:50 AM # Q
As a software provider you should be...in six months you will care when the dollars greatly dwindle of other smartphone sales due to the dreaded "iPhone."

Yeah, 'cause Beersie's business customers who buy his custom applications are all going to switch to a device that can't run them. Get real!

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
jca666us @ 7/4/2007 3:37:27 AM # Q
I don't buy that. I agree that Palm OS is in need of the overhaul that is, in fact, under way.

And we won't know the results of this overhaul until 2008 - assuming Palm lasts that long. Palm has had a pretty bad track record.

But no amount of enjoyable eye candy can overcome the fact that the iPhone can never do anything more than what Steve Jobs says it will do.

When Apple releases an SDK, and Palm is still hacking on POS 2.0 you'll be eating those words.

Anyone with the slightest interest in mobile computing has at least one, and often a few, 3rd party applications that really make it worth it for them to spend the extra money for something like a Treo.

Actually, the majority of smartphone users never install addl. apps. on their smartphones.

My Treo has a C compiler and programming text editor for developing Palm apps on it. My doctor's has ePocrates. Others have Docs to Go, Diddlebug, an eBook reader or a journaling, expense-tracking, or travel app that make the difference for them. Not for the iPhone user.

Not yet.

All of the iPhone's other strengths and limitations pale in comparison to the fact that your iPhone will always be exactly like the one that Steve Jobs and ten million other iPhonatics carry. I'm sure it's a great iPod, but really, I couldn't care less.

That's too bad; as a software developer you should always be following trends and be on the lookout for the next big thing. Trust me, when Apple releases an SDK and POS marketshare nosedives even more than it has, you'll start caring alot more about the iphone.

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
freakout @ 7/4/2007 4:04:40 AM # Q
Not yet.

That seems to be the mantra of iPhone users. MMS not yet, cut-and-paste not yet, video recording not yet, third-party apps not yet, not yet not yet not yet. Dunno 'bout you, but I'd feel pretty stupid spending $500 on a device that isn't finished...

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 6:57:29 AM # Q
> ...but I'd feel pretty stupid spending $500 on a device that
> isn't finished...

Don't own a TREO, huh?

Giggle.

RE: iPhone is iFailure! good news for palm...
TooMuch @ 7/4/2007 12:27:54 PM # Q
Again, it is laughable to read some of these posts about currently missing or incomplete features about the iPhone as if these features will not come. Come on...Apple has made it clear that they will be adding many new (not to mention "free") features to the iPhone in the days ahead.

Tell me...Is adding cut&paste, 3rd party software opportunity, Exchange ActiveSync, etc. harder or easier than making a great foundational OS with people-pleasing iPod features? It's a no-brainer. Go ahead and FOOLeo yourself into thinking that this is not just the beginning of a major new competitor. For example, in less than a week after it's launch, Apple has already announced third party support for business users from Visto.

The current specifications make it faster, smoother, more energy-efficient, etc. For crying out loud, it has 125x the built-in memory of most Treos. The talk about the iPhone deficiencies is hilarious. (I can hear your thoughts..."So, I can ADD external memory, batteries, etc. to my Treo..." Yeah, carry your external SDs and battery packs all you want.) I can just hear that dumb Apple creative group now..."Hey, let's build a powerful and fun smartphone that has the potential to be "killer" but let's just stop at "potential." Yeah, that is the pattern of Apple over the last few years. :0))))

As for criticism about Apple choosing AT&T...It's all about GSM!!!! It's about a world market.

Wall Street KNOWS this is big! It only costs Apple about $250 to make this thing. That's why APPL stock has risen 40 PERCENT since the iPhone annoucement in January. After Apple rakes in the cash, it will leverage that cash to out-price & out-feature others who are tooling up to take them on.

As for current power-user software deficiencies in the iPhone, you must remember that Google is challenging the establishment (Microsoft) with Internet based applications. With the iPhone's OSX and it's Safari browser and Apple's new PC version of Safari 3.0, you can see what Apple is preparing to do here.

BTW. As almost a decade long Palm OS and current Treo 680 user I don't own an iPhone (yet). I did play with one for a few minutes, specifically to test the virtual keyboard. To my surprise, it was a lot easier than I was led to expect from the doomsday reports on it vs. my tactile keyboard. I found it to be very simple and quick.

Reply to this comment

Scoping the competition ...

PilotMad @ 7/2/2007 3:48:43 PM # Q
Perhaps Ed has seen how well the iPhone is selling and thinks maybe the new Linux Palm OS Mobile needs some more gloss to the GUI.

"We'll make ours just as good! Guys, looks like we ne need to hold that release ..."

And so history repeats..., as the last time Palm did this - Apple had just brought out the Newton!!! :-)


"You have to rage against the dying of the light".

RE: Scoping the competition ...
jca666us @ 7/2/2007 6:28:04 PM # Q
At this point in time Palm is outclassed and out gunned.

Linux is a good choice for Palm, but they would need to spend the appropriate cash to develop and test the device to ensure it's a quality product.

Time to burn through Elevation's cash infusion wisely - they can't (yet again) release a half-baked beta product and call it 1.0

Apple raised the bar for the entire industry.

RE: Scoping the competition ...
SeldomVisitor @ 7/2/2007 6:56:33 PM # Q
> ...Time to burn through Elevation's cash infusion wisely...

DING DING DING DING DING!

PALM had $600 million is cash and no debt.

After this "deal" they'll have $200 million in cash and $400+ million in debt.

Infusion?

RE: Scoping the competition ...
VampireLestat @ 7/2/2007 8:15:53 PM # Q
why did they do that?

I could never figure out the logic of going into debt.
Was there a threat by big stockholders to dump stocks if Palm didnt pay out a huge dividend? Isnt that illegal in some securities law book or something?

RE: Scoping the competition ...
jca666us @ 7/2/2007 8:55:18 PM # Q
Sorry - my mistake. I forgot they incurred debt from the elevation deal. Maybe we're all stupid and the Foleo (aka Craptop) will make a ton of cash for palm? BTW, all of my messages are being typed on an iphone. Amazing device - if apple develops this the way they developed the ipod, palm is already dead.
RE: Pooping the competition ...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/2/2007 9:41:36 PM # Q
Time to burn through Elevation's cash infusion wisely...


Wow. Yet another lamb for the slaughter. It's amazing to see how many people think Elevation is bringing anything substantial to the Palm Party*. The Elevation deal was yet another elaborate Palm SHELL GAME. They offer Palm the hope of leadership, cost cutting, focus and influence. For a price. A HEAVY price.


*Do you also think Mercedes is being paid to give up Chrysler?


TVoR

RE: Scoping the competition ...
tftp @ 7/2/2007 10:34:44 PM # Q
You just need to look at the numbers to understand the Elevation deal. Elevation spent $325M, which by itself would have only bought 1/8th of Palm, but because they had Palm take on debt and issue the special dividend they reduced the value of the company and thus they were actually able to buy 1/4th of Palm. (Remember, when the deal is done, the stock price of Palm will go from $16 to $8.50.)

Or to say it in Wall St speak, they "unlocked" the value of Palm -- Palm was just sitting on that cash, unable to spend it on R&D because they didn't have the right things to spend it on... Let's face one clear truth: for the last 2 years, Apple was busy working on the most advanced mobile OS out there while Palm was busy buying and selling Palmsource, marketing WM5/6 devices, cutting the antenna off the 650, and making the Foleo.

As for the future, Apple, even with their awesome OS, has staked out a very particular market which still leaves Palm plenty room to innovate, if only they stop being so arrogant and actually start working on the next cool thing.


Reply to this comment

Good news

sgiga @ 7/2/2007 6:29:23 PM # Q
> Iphone really illustrates how outdated and stale Palm's lineup is and demonstrates how mismanaged Palm has been.

What are you talking about? The iPhone is a competitor to top line SE Walkmanphones. Taking the price into consideration it is *above* any of the SE walkmanphones. The iPhone scores in good looks and video, but that's all. Everything else is inferior to even the mid priced SEs. It is probably more correct to put the iPhone in a completely new category of it's own - a multimedia-phone (although both SE and Nokia have better specs in that respect as well, but lacks in looks, and they are not as fine-tuned toward multimedia. Both these things are very important). What remains to be seen is if video on a phone

The iPhone lacks:
* 3g - simply a must outside the US. No 3g = no sales, and a new phone must do even better, it has to have 3g turbo (3600 Mb/s instead of the current 360 Mb/s).
* No MMS. This is like a major bug. The whole idea of the camera in the phone is to send MMS. If you want to take real *pictures*, you bring your Canon.
* No video recording. Again, a major bug - video recording is for MMS and both are essential in a multimedia device.
* Completely tied to carriers. This is OK in the US I guess, but Apple really has to rethink this when going international. This goes directly on the value of the phone. If it is tied, the value drop as a rock, meaning phone per € is low and the phone simply cannot be priced high.
* Way too feminine. Maybe it is only me, but right now the iPhone just ozes with female hormones. It's good looking and all, and a perfect gift for your wife, but it's definitely not a gadget for men.


LinuxPalm is good news. This gives Palm complete freedom, complete control and a stable OS capable of handling anything and everything regarding hardware that may come in the future. This means they can start to catch up to the real competitor: HTC. The coming year i will use my SE P1. Next year when Palm comes with Linux and hopefully some good looking hardware, then I will get a Palm again.

I have two BeOS version lying somewhere. I used it just to check it out, but they wont work on any newer PC's so I havent tryed it in several years. As far as I remember the main reason for it's death was that is was too complicated to write apps for. It's multitasking is extremely fine-grained making the desktop very responsive, but the truth is that it was an overengineered and complicated piece of software.

RE: Good news
VampireLestat @ 7/2/2007 8:13:09 PM # Q
good points.

In any event, good or bad, I don't care much.
Treos are fun and get the job done.
And besides... us Palm OS fans have thousands of programs to pick from... iPhone... oh thats right... closed locked sealed device e.g., no open platform and tied to carriers.

Palm is still king in my book.


RE: Good news
jca666us @ 7/2/2007 8:44:37 PM # Q
All of the issues mentioned - with the exception of 3g and being tied to a single carrier - are software issues. Apple has made a monumental achievement in software engineering by porting os x to a mobile device. Does anyone believe apple can't or won't add missing features - mms, video capture, etc.

I'd bet on them before believing palm will release a tested and DEBUGGED version of Linux next year. I've been burned by palm too many times in the past - I recall reading that the T3 would be upgradeable to cobalt when it was released.

One lie in a long line of broken promises from Palm - how long does it take before people wake up?

RE: Good news
LiveFaith @ 7/2/2007 9:51:27 PM # Q
This is probably crazy. But, since Apple has wet everyone's continued expectations with the "software update", I asked my self this.

What if they had the actual 3G HSPDA hardware already in the device. Then when they had tested enough, they could offer a carrier based FOR-PAY upgrade via software and the #1 drawback is resolved, the carriers make some cheese and so does Apple. Talk about rocking the boat.

Anyone know the actual hardware requirements of GPRS / EDGE / HSPDA standard transmitters / receivers?

Pat Horne

RE: Good news
jca666us @ 7/2/2007 10:05:27 PM # Q
Current iPhone only has edge. Apple is probably only planning to leverage existing iPod users for now. iPhone is basically a lifedrive + treo done right.
RE: Bad news
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/2/2007 10:28:48 PM # Q
I recall reading that the T3 would be upgradeable to cobalt when it was released.

The T3 IS "upgradeable" to Cobalt. The problem was that PalmSource released a piece of feces OS, so Palm had to pass on it rather than go bankrupt. Much of Palm's current problems are directly it attributable to Cobalt's failure.

What if they had the actual 3G HSPDA hardware already in the device. Then when they had tested enough, they could offer a carrier based FOR-PAY upgrade via software and the #1 drawback is resolved, the carriers make some cheese and so does Apple. Talk about rocking the boat.

The iPhone lacks a 3G radio. Of course, they could EASILY spec a 3G radio, but that's a whole other ugly story...


TVoR

RE: Good news
sims2k @ 7/2/2007 11:07:07 PM # Q
1. My Treo runs many medical and reference applications worth two Iphone ... can the Iphone runs them ?
2. I don't care about videos and music on my phone ... for that I have my Thinkpad Z61T and OQO model 02 to play with.
3. No keypad ... no use to me.

So there goes my opinion on the Iphone thingy. When I upgrade my smartphone in three months...I am hoping a better Treo like the 755p or even the 800p will out in CDMA.

RE: Good news
jca666us @ 7/2/2007 11:35:19 PM # Q
Palm OS has thousands of applications.

Lots of them exist in order to compensate for deficiencies in the OS.

>The T3 IS "upgradeable" to Cobalt. The problem was that PalmSource released a piece >of feces OS, so Palm had to pass on it rather than go bankrupt. Much of Palm's >current problems are directly it attributable to Cobalt's failure.

Exactly. I was mentioning Cobalt to illustrate that as a customer I was sold on the T3 as a device expandable to a new OS, and ended up with a paperweight. Like many of you, I was sold a "bill of goods" from Palm. BTW, the T3 is not upgradeable to Cobalt because - as a customer - I can't purchase Cobalt for my T3.

Palm is not and has not been customer focused in a very long time and that is exactly why they're dying. The iphone is the final nail in their coffin.

500,000 iphones sold in one weekend - how many months before they outnumber the Treo installed base?

>The iPhone lacks a 3G radio. Of course, they could EASILY spec a 3G radio, but >that's a whole other ugly story...

Tell the story...lack of 3G - battery life???

RE: Good news
sgiga @ 7/3/2007 4:06:27 AM # Q
Just to make a point. This comment is posted with my 1 1/2 year old SE 600i with opera 4 beta. It's a dumbphone, full multitasking, 3g, PIM, T9 predictive input. I'm doing it while listening to music downloaded directly to my phone. The screen is way too small, but it works.
RE: Good news
freakout @ 7/3/2007 4:24:30 AM # Q
Current iPhone only has edge. Apple is probably only planning to leverage existing iPod users for now. iPhone is basically a lifedrive + treo done right.

No it isn't. You can't install extra applications onto the iPhone. The Treo and the Lifedrive are genuine mobile computers (buggy though they are), giving the user the freedom to install and do whatever they like with them. The iPhone is basically a supercharged iPod, which does what Apple wants it to do. Not that it isn't a very impressive device; just not a "handheld computer", as so many inept journalists have been spouting. Apples and oranges. Or Palms, if you prefer.

RE: Good news
sgiga @ 7/3/2007 5:00:13 AM # Q
He he. It worked. It also has email by the way, and of course it synch with a pc. Wayfinder GPS can also be installed.

Point is that dumbphones do have everything you need, and they work perfectly right out of the box. This is the real competition for all smartphones.

RE: Good news
jca666us @ 7/3/2007 7:56:56 AM # Q
>No it isn't. You can't install extra applications onto the iPhone. The Treo and the Lifedrive are genuine mobile
>computers (buggy though they are), giving the user the freedom to install and do whatever they like with them.

You can't install applications yet

It's an easier proposition for Apple to add an SDK for the iphone, then it is for Palm to revamp the OS. We've been waiting, I don't know...SEVEN YEARS for that to happen?!?!?!?!?

The iphone is an ipod, but it's also a handheld computer.

The "inept journalists" see the writing on the wall.

RE: Good news
SeldomVisitor @ 7/3/2007 8:29:49 AM # Q
> ...The "inept journalists" see the writing on the wall.

Yeah, like that historically-well-known-TREO-hater Walt Mossberg:

== "...Our verdict is that, despite some flaws and feature
== omissions, the iPhone is, on balance, a beautiful and
== breakthrough handheld computer..."

WAITAMINUTE - he =didn't= say "feature phone!

== "...The iPhone’s most controversial feature, the omission
== of a physical keyboard in favor of a virtual keyboard on
== the screen, turned out in our tests to be a nonissue, despite
== our deep initial skepticism. After five days of use,
== Walt — who did most of the testing for this review — was
== able to type on it as quickly and accurately as he could
== on the Palm Treo he has used for years..."

WAITAMINUTE - as fast as and as accurately as on a TREO!?

== "...the iPhone is a whole new experience and a pleasure to use."

Obviously a paid basher.


RE: Good news
freakout @ 7/3/2007 8:33:41 AM # Q
^^ I'm not saying the iPhone will never become a handheld computer. Just that the iPhone 1.0 certainly isn't one. As for writing on the wall - we're talking about Apple here, a control-freak company if ever there was one. Personally I think iPhone+iTunes would make for an excellent platform for selling mobile software, but I'm not sure Apple sees it that way.

sgiga:
He he. It worked. It also has email by the way, and of course it synch with a pc. Wayfinder GPS can also be installed.

True, but it still doesn't make it a real mobile computer. If Apple open it up then it will be "Lifedrive+Treo" done right, but until then it's still not the dream device.

Point is that dumbphones do have everything you need, and they work perfectly right out of the box. This is the real competition for all smartphones.

True. Palm do need a much better built-in software package than the one they've been offering. And a modern syncing solution too.

RE: Good news
freakout @ 7/3/2007 8:48:39 AM # Q
SV, just 'cause Mossberg called it a handheld computer doesn't make it so. As for the keyboard, I'll counter your Mossberg with a Pogue:

Then there’s the small matter of typing. Tapping the skinny little virtual keys on the screen is frustrating, especially at first... Even so, text entry is not the iPhone’s strong suit. The BlackBerry won’t be going away anytime soon.

I've become so used to my Treo I can pretty much touch-type on it now. You simply can't do that on a flat screen. Plus, thinking long-term, the lack of tactile feedback could be a real pain. Literally. When tapping away on the Treo, I can slide my thumb across the thumboard to get to the letters that I'm after without exerting enough force to actually push them. Slide your finger across a touchscreen - even a fancy error-correting one - and you'll probably press keys you didn't want to. The solution then is to keep your thumbs hovering above the screen, which ergonomically isn't a smart thing to do.

Simply put: the smartest, bestest touch-screen keyboard ever will never be as good as the best button keyboard. If you think otherwise you're probably a terrorist. :P

RE: Good news
sgiga @ 7/3/2007 9:45:46 AM # Q
This is T3 + K600i + Opera 3.0 (I feel really geeky now)
RE: Good news
sgiga @ 7/3/2007 10:25:02 AM # Q
I understand that a T3, Lifedrive, Treo are real mobile computers where applications can be installed. But when 90% of those applications are "better email", "better PIM suite", "better phone connection" and so on than what Palm is able to deliver out of the box, then the whole point of being able to install 3rd party software is reduced to a nuicance at best. Those things should simply work out of the box and should be a thing between Palm and the subcontractors, not something the end user should be bothered with.

I would like to go to the Palm site and "synch" to the newest firmware, and that's it. This is how all the others are doing it.

Completely different software like GPS, games and so on, should of course be installable by the end user, but those things can also be installed on ordinary phones. The best web browser, Opera, can for instance be installed on everything that crawls.

I also want a smartphone to be able to install other things, but the bare essentials like PIM, email, SMS and so on is simply not something I would like to bother with.

RE: Good news
freakout @ 7/3/2007 7:42:44 PM # Q
Myself, I'm perfectly happy with the built-in PIM, and especially Palm's Messaging app, which still beats the pants off every other phone on the market. (including the MMS-less iPhone) But it would be nice to have versions as pretty as the iPhone's. And Blazer needs to go.
RE: Good news
rcartwright @ 7/4/2007 12:37:36 AM # Q
First, I have to call BS on any thing Mossberg puts out about any Apple product. Has anyone thought it a bit odd that ONLY FOUR "journalists" (and I use the term loosely) on the entire planet got an advance copy of an iphone? I do not see Mossberg ever saying anything bad able an Apple product and risk getting his lips removed from the backside of Steve Jobs bum.

I will give props to the iphone. The OS in general is what Palm should be doing now. However, do not forget for one second that the iphone was a MAJOR marketing push for Apple. They will sell a ton of these no doubt. But the iphone is not a working phone. People have poo-pooed the commnets of "No cut and paste", "keyboard takes a lot of getting used to", and "no 3rd party apps". Add to that no support for corporate e-mail, inconsistant UI, too many steps to do simple tasks, suck sync with the calender function, and no voice command. You can't get work done on it and if you are laying out $600 for a work phone, it better be able to earn its keep. The iphone does not do that right now, and I suspect will not be doing that for at least 12-18 months. I say that because; 1. Apple has probably had a gross profit on the iPhone of about $125M (based on estimated cost to produce per unit of about $250.00 and a WAG that ATT is getting about $100.00 per phone sold from its network and approximately 500,000 units sold over the weekend.)This is actually a conservative estimate as I expect that ATT is getting no cut from sales out of the Apple stores. Apple will ride the 1.0 horse as long as it sells. 2. The 3g iPhone will probably debut in Europe and roll out here at least a year from now so as to allow the sheep, errr.....iPhone purchasers to regrow some new wool to be sheared in the US. 3. Apple needs to focus on getting OS 10.5 out the door. While the estimated $125M+ will hire a lot of code monkeys, the bottom line is that its unlikely that we will see a lot of serious software changes in the iPhone before Macworld. Apple is not going to run the risk of slowing sales with the bad press that a code update going south would cause. Again, if the people are buying what you are selling "as is" why change it?

This window is the "last, best, hope for victory" for Palm. If, they come up with an innovative "Palm OS II", some good design refresh and full 3rd party app support, then the Treo can make it. If they can do the same for the Folio and engineer a Rosetta Stone that lets it sync with any cell phone and get the price down some, the Folio can not only make it but prosper.

If they are not shipping such products by CES 2008/Macworld, then I will probably be looking elsewhere for my next PDA/smartphone.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Good news
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 6:53:14 AM # Q
Never read Mossberg's reviews of TREOs, eh?

RE: Good news
rcartwright @ 7/4/2007 8:42:11 AM # Q
@SV,

The problem I have is the fact that Mossberg gets advanced copies of Apple tech well before anyone else and I think he has at least the appearence of too cozy a relationship with Apple.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Good news
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 8:47:22 AM # Q
My point was, of course, that Mossberg for YEARS has been a blatant TREO fanboy (since 6 months BEFORE the Treo 180 was finally released!) but, as noted somewhat above, has actually said certain things about the iPhone exceed the usability of the TREO.

That's radical.

Reply to this comment

ROTFL you guys are a riot

VampireLestat @ 7/2/2007 8:09:56 PM # Q
You guys are a riot. ROTFL

- "Palm can't keep putting lipstick on their 10 y/o pig and selling it as an innovation." jca666us
- "You deserve the FOOLeo. In fact, get two FOOLeos and use one FOOLeo as the other FOOLeo's "companion". " TVoR


RE: ROTFL you guys are a riot
LiveFaith @ 7/2/2007 9:52:27 PM # Q
The always placid nature down on the PIC ranch. :-o

Pat Horne
RE: ROTFL you guys are a riot
jca666us @ 7/2/2007 10:09:28 PM # Q
Palm is like a Dilbert comic strip. It wouldn't be so funny if it wasn't all true. Pathetic yet true.
Reply to this comment

Will Palm Be Around in 2008?

Haber @ 7/3/2007 4:50:36 PM # Q
Development for the Palm platform is near dead, the Treo is having issues with refreshes and hasn't been seriously updated since the 600, and the Foleo sideshow has eaten up precious resources, resources Palm can't afford to waste. Pocket PC and Blackberry are growing in market share, and Palm is heading toward the single digits. Palm might not be around in 2008, much less release a grand new Palm OS.

RE: Will Palm Be Around in 2008?
jca666us @ 7/3/2007 7:17:18 PM # Q
it's anyone's guess. They might live long enough to release palm os 2.0 - but will they have resources to develop it into a compelling solution? Someone might buy them for their name...
RE: Will Palm Be Around in 2008?
theog @ 7/4/2007 6:13:28 AM # Q
Who really cares if they will be around?


HTC is the new Palm....

Vote for John Kerry... best man for the job.

RE: Will Palm Be Around in 2008?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 6:43:16 AM # Q
> ...HTC is the new Palm....

Lol!

That is funny on multiple levels due to PALM's latest words about TOTALLY outsourcing their Windows devices to ODMs and simply tacking their logo on them.

Buy a Palm/HTC, get a free FOOLeo!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/4/2007 7:16:39 AM # Q
Who really cares if they will be around?


HTC is the new Palm....

I wonder why Palm thinks people are going to buy Palm-labelled HTC devices instead of carrier-labelled HTC devices. Maybe Palm will sweeten the deal by giving away a free FOOLeo with every Palm/HTC phone sold...

Can someone explain what Palm's HUNDREDS of "software engineers" have been doing all day for the past 3 YEARS?

RE: Will Palm Be Around in 2008?
SeldomVisitor @ 7/4/2007 7:18:05 AM # Q
> ...Can someone explain what Palm's HUNDREDS of "software engineers"
> have been doing all day for the past 3 YEARS?

Nope.

That's why they now have dozens!

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Will it talk to Linux boxes

dwlegg @ 7/6/2007 7:17:16 AM # Q
My main reason for choosing another Palm will be that it talks easily to Linux boxes via wifi, bluetooth or whatever.

It will won't it?

DWL

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