Comments on: Access Linux Platform SDK Released

Access Linux Platform SDKAccess today announced general availability of its SDK and development tools for the Access Linux Platform. The company has also released a Garnet VM Compatibility Kit in conjunction with the new developer tools, which enables developers to test their Palm OS Garnet applications' compatibility with ALP.

In addition to the SDK, the company has announced some major new partnerships. Access is joining Orange in joining the LiMo Foundation, a non-profit organization working to create a cross compatible mobile Linux software platform. Access has also announced new partnerships with Wind River Systems and MontaVista Software.

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Another wheel invented

Geezer @ 2/12/2008 4:18:25 AM # Q
Access Linux Platform,
Palm's Linux
Android

All the same but different. Oh they all have a common feature, none of them support Flash for the the present and for quite a lot of the future too.


RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/12/2008 5:26:28 AM # Q
Where did you get the idea that we don't support Flash on ALP...?

RE: Another wheel invented
WareW01f @ 2/12/2008 9:00:00 AM # Q
Well, unfortunately, baring any huge announcements that I'm not yet privy to, you are going to see a Android handset quite a while before either of the other two. Which is very sad. Someone really needs to knock Palm upside the head and get them to fly right. They seem to have *no* issue giving Microsoft cash for an OS, yet the greed kicks in with ACCESS?? Drop ALP on the GSM Centro (no hardware mods, just flash the OS) and SHIP THE DAMN THING see how it does.

Can't be a bigger flop than the Folio. Or wait until Google is releasing a FREE phone OS that all of the carriers are shipping on their self branded phones that *blow* Palm's fantasy Linux away (and for half the price.... with Palm 6 months to a year too late to the market)

On the ACCESS front. The focus seems to be Asia and I which them well. I'm still a bit confused about how all these MVNOs seem to get phones made/brought into the US and they haven't managed it in how many revs, but perhaps that hasn't been a push.

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/12/2008 10:42:20 AM # Q
Orange is a European carrier, not an Asian one.

RE: Another wheel invented
Geezer @ 2/12/2008 12:01:12 PM # Q
Because Palm(source) has never seen the need for Flash before - let alone be prepared to shell out for any license or bundle it, make it a standard that can be developed for. They've had ARM processors since the original Tungsten T and never worked with Macromedia, so forgive me, but this time its Adobe and Linux and I bet they still don't do a thing.
Anyway, what's all this 'we' are you in the know or actually Mr Big himself?

RE: Another wheel invented
twrock @ 2/12/2008 12:30:47 PM # Q
Where did you get the idea that we don't support Flash on ALP...

You've been away far too long, David. Have you forgotten how we like to make up the facts as we go along here in the PIC news forum? It saves us from having to deal with reality.

Welcome back.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Another wheel invented
jeffhoward001 @ 2/12/2008 1:28:09 PM # Q
Let's be honest... We all love Palm, but Android is going to be a serious competitor, hands down. That said, there are definitely some chinks in Google's armor though. First, they say the phone's going to be free, but they haven't released any details on that business model yet. Chances are it will get a lot of attention, but who knows if the average business user (which still comprises the lions share of the "smartphone" market) will want to buy into that business model. Yes, it is true that the smartphone market is still a small percentage of the overall handheld market, but I think those are two separate issues. Palm's just in the beginning stages at marketing to the broader handheld market with the Centro, and that seems to be going well, even with PalmOS (which is another point I'll make at the end-users).

Second, Android looks cool so far, but as shown with Windows Mobile, who knows if the market will like it. Look at how much money Microsoft has thrown into Windows Mobile over the years, and they're still just a small percentage of the market. WM6 is a great product, but a lot of people still just don't "like" the WM experience. I'm sure Google will learn from Microsoft's mistakes in that area, but there's no denying that smartphone users are loyal and downright picky about their phone OS.(completely opposite of normal handheld users, which I'll talk more about below).

So why doesn't Palm just go with ALP or Android on their handhelds? Someone mentioned earlier that is was greed... I don't think it has anything to do with that. I think the root of the decision probably came out of analyzing what's been "core" to the company over the years, and there's no two ways about it, a "Palm OS" is core to a Palm. People seem to like the WM versions of the Treo, but that business line isn't taking Palm anywhere except down the road of a competing on thin margins with some major competitors. As far as the smartphone market goes, I think making their own custom OS and device that really feels like a "Palm" is the only route they have right now. It they just re-brand WM and/or ALP and/or Android devices, they're going to get their guts stomped out my all the other cell phone companies doing the exact same thing.

As for the handheld (non smartphone) market? It's tough to say if their own OS will buy them much. I don't know enough about what makes consumers in that market tick... The main drivers I see are price, ease of use, and stability (roughly in that order). Can a new Palm OS really aid in those goals? Maybe, since using your own OS is a little cheaper (in the long run), and if it's true to the original "Palm", is should be pretty easy to use. Aside from that, my experience has been that the standard handheld market doesn't seem to care at all about what OS the phone uses. I think that partly explains the success of the Centro. Palm gave the handheld market something cute, fast, cheap (relatively), and with a richer set of features than the average handheld. I really doubt the average handheld user will trample the OS like Palm power users do, and as such, the Centro will be a stable device for the average user.

All things considered, I'm not saying that another "wheel" will be enough to make Palm a major competitor again, but I am saying that it's their best bet for survival right now.

- Jeff

Tungsten T --> Palm TX --> Foleo-mini??(like an LD-II with a small attached keyboard??)

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/12/2008 4:14:13 PM # Q
You've been away far too long, David.

Oh, busy, busy. As you can see from the range of announcements and such coming out of MWC...

Have you forgotten how we like to make up the facts as we go along here in the PIC news forum?

Oh, yeah, that's right! I remember now!
—Bill Cort as "Veronica's Dad" in Heathers

It saves us from having to deal with reality.

Experience shows that reality tends to deal, it its own ways, with those who won't deal with it on their own initiative...

Welcome back.

Thanks.


RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/12/2008 4:19:33 PM # Q
Because Palm(source) has never seen the need for Flash before...

I don't know anything about what Palm or (source) do, but ACCESS has supported Flash in NetFront for a good while now.

Adobe does insist that device manufacturers execute a license with them for such support. Go figure, huh?

...this time its Adobe and Linux and I bet they still don't do a thing.

Oh, yeah? How much are you willing to put on that proposition?


RE: Another wheel invented
SeldomVisitor @ 2/12/2008 4:42:31 PM # Q
I use Ubuntu on one of my boxes with Firefox as my browser.

Am I simply imagining something or does YouTube work fine thereon?

[though, admittedly, I cannot DEVELOP Flash software thereon, AFAIK]

RE: Another wheel invented
Geezer @ 2/13/2008 3:46:27 AM # Q
Oh, yeah? How much are you willing to put on that proposition?

Like everybody else, surprise surprise, the price of a new device.
But I just heard that Flash is coming to the iPhone. For the average user here in the UK, the iPhone remains ridiculously expensive with the device costing the user 269 plus at least 35 per month for eighteen months contract.
If they bring that down and it has Flash combined with Safari which is a much better browser than NetFront I can't see much competition.
They're even talking about fixing the Exchange Server support for the iPhone so really what has Palm got that the iPhone doesn't? Oh true, I give you the interface is very different.
So regrettably, I can't see myself really willing to put that much into 'the proposition' unless, of course, as an insider, you know something more...

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 1:14:02 PM # Q
As "an insider", I know plenty more, but as a professional, I won't be sharing most of it.

Sorry, nature of the business we're in. The iPhone is an underpowered, overpriced low-end 2.5G feature phone with an admittedly snazzy user interface (which will be widely duplicated by Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, LG and others to the best of their abilities quite soon, I'm sure).

I also hear, after the initial rush, the bottom's pretty much dropped out there: Apple's cut production substantially for the next quarter, and there are evidently somewhere between a half million and three times that many iPhones languishing in various carriers' inventory...


RE: Another wheel invented
mikecane @ 2/13/2008 2:10:34 PM # Q
>>>Apple's cut production substantially for the next quarter, and there are evidently somewhere between a half million and three times that many iPhones languishing in various carriers' inventory...

Christ, ACCESS must *really* be desperate to promulgate *that* total BS.

http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/what-if-the-iphonetouch-sdk-is-delayed/

Let's see how you spin next month.

And I expect you'll have a nice pink slip for Xmas as ACCESS throws in the towel.

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 2:24:28 PM # Q
Heh. Keep whistling past that graveyard, fan-boi.

Toni Sacconaghi of Bernstein Research and Barron's (http://online.barrons.com/article/SB120130794713218339.html?mod=googlenews_barrons) say differently, as did Steve Wozniak (http://www.iphoneworld.ca/news/2008/01/31/wozniak-whats-needed-for-iphone-to-reach-its-10million-target/). Reports of stagnant iPhone sales in Europe are all over the place (http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/01/20/apple-aapl-iphone-sales-disappoint-in-uk/). CNET reports that they're sitting on the shelves at the AT&T stores (http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9857622-37.html?tag=nefd.blgs).

Not to mention no 3G support, no SDK...

So, where's your support for the "total BS" claim, Mikey...? Trot it on out, by all means.

And I expect you'll have a nice pink slip for Xmas as ACCESS throws in the towel.

How much are you willing to put behind that expectation? Are you offering odds?


'iPod Air'....? C'mon, This Makes No Sense.
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 6:06:14 PM # Q
By the way, Mike, I left a comment on your blog, but it's worth pointing out here that your theory (that Apple has dramatically cut its orders for parts for the iPhone and iPod Touch in the coming quarter to address the expected "self-cannibalization" of those devices when Apple introduces the vaporous iBook tablet, which you're referring to as the "iPod Air") doesn't really make a lick of sense.

To constitute a tablet iBook, the device in question would have to run real OS X, I'd think. This would place a pretty good lower limit on screen size at, say, no less than nine inches. An ARM processor is going to seem pretty pokey running full-blown OS X, so it'd presumably have to be an Intel-based device. That's going to place lower limits on battery size and upper limits on active usage time, particularly for a WiFi-enabled (and GSM-enabled...?) device.

Now, how's a device like this going to "cannibalize" the iPhone? Can you hold it up to your face to make a phone call? Or do you only use the Bluetooth ear bud and carry the thing around under your arm...? That'll be a hit at parties and on dates. Unless you've got really big pockets, it's not going to replace your extremely portable iPod Touch, either.

Now, maybe it's smaller. Just based on screen costs--do you have any actual sense what a capacitive touchscreen costs and how fast those costs go up as the size increases...?--it'd have to be a whole lot smaller to hit a price point anything near that of an iPod Touch. Like...about the size of an iPod Touch. So what's it offer beyond what the Touch does that it would cannibalize it?

Now, even assuming that it's more or less the size of a Touch or an iPhone, if it's going to cannibalize the iPhone, it's gotta to be phone, I'd think. And if it's going to cannibalize the iPod Touch, it's gotta have a flash-based "disk", yes?

So, if Apple's trimming all their orders way back, what exactly is it that they're going to be building this device out of...? Gossamer?

"iPod Air", indeed.

RE: Another wheel invented
mikecane @ 2/13/2008 9:14:32 PM # Q
I saw your post. Do you think I don't read my own blog or that I'd disallow the post? (I've only disallowed posts that are clearly spam and one nutter who left nothing but cuss words with no other point.)

>>>How much are you willing to put behind that expectation? Are you offering odds?

Yeah. I think the odds are 90% they'll fold it up.

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/14/2008 12:15:24 AM # Q
Nine to one, huh?

Okay, sport. I've got fifty bucks that says you're wrong. I'm still here by Gift-mas, you're into me for four Benjamins and a Ulysses S. Grant. And I'll give you a side-bet of twenty dollars at even odds that both you lose and welsh.

Whaddaya say?

Do you feel lucky, punk? Well, do ya?
—Clint Eastwood as "Lt. 'Dirty' Harry Callahan" in Dirty Harry


RE: Another wheel invented
nastebu @ 2/14/2008 2:37:48 PM # Q
I don't know Lefty, it sounds like your business plan is to close your eyes and hope really hard that the iPhone goes away. Since that's not going to happen, maybe Mike is right.

RE: Another wheel invented
freakout @ 2/14/2008 3:40:08 PM # Q
^^ Why would ACCESS even give a damn about the iPhone? They sell an OS, not hardware. But more importantly, given that the iPhone still has a less-than-one-percent share of the handset market, why should anybody care?

(Anybody except Palm, that is, 'cause it seems that's the first place their disaffected customers are going...)

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/14/2008 5:41:08 PM # Q
No, we look quite closely at competitive devices, including the iPhone, and judge their merits and deficiencies. I've played extensively with the iPhone. The most interesting discovery I made, overall, was that it took me under a half hour to see its entire repertoire of capabilities. On the basis of these, user experience aside, it wouldn't even qualify as a "feature phone"--virtually every phone that carriers give away these days does more, if in a less attractive fashion. Phones like the Nokia N95 or Sony-Ericsson P1i blow the iPhone completely away in terms of functionality.

The iPhone has some significant strengths, but they're all around user experience--not that this isn't important. I believe that a phone that only delivers good user experience without underlying functionality (like MMS, sending to multiple recipients in SMS, a truly open applications development environment, actual security--did you know that everything on your iPhone runs as root? Neat, huh?--real Bluetooth support, real Javascript support, the ability to change wallpaper and add ringtones of your own choice, and on and on and on...) won't succeed in the long run, especially when there are phones coming out (see the LiMo Foundation announcements, for example) quite soon which will offer all those things and more, plus a decent (and certain to improve) user experience.

Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. But Apple set a goal of selling 10,000,000 iPhones in the device's first year. It's looking increasingly unlikely that they'll hit that goal.

So, what's Mike supposed to be "right" about...? That Apple's going to somehow put ACCESS out of business via the iPhone (or the imaginary and inexplicable "iPod Air" which he claims is itself going to "self-cannibalize" iPhone sales)...?

I don't see it. We've got (and have had for many years) an excellent business selling browsers and other mobile software, on a global basis: we've shipped half a billion copies of NetFront, and the latest version is better than ever. We now have seen announcements of a phone powered by ALP coming out from Orange late this spring; I wouldn't make the assumption that this is the only thing going on with ALP. We don't make sales predictions, but the way things are progressing, the likelihood of ACCESS "throwing in the towel" as Mike puts it when we're actually (and now demonstrably) doing quite well, seems pretty small.

I pointed at a number of stories in the news which substantiate what I've been saying about the iPhone. Neither you nor Mike have addressed any of those.

Who's "closing their eyes"...?

RE: Another wheel invented
nastebu @ 2/14/2008 10:00:46 PM # Q
Nah, the stories you cited are unconvincing. The whole 1.4 million missing iPhone thing was hashed out in the press and responded to. Even the link you provide offers several possible theories, the one you fixated on being pure speculation. What speaks to me is Apple's astronomical profits last quarter.

Look, complaining about the iPhone's lack of features is missing the point. The iPhone isn't, "user interface aside," a mediocre phone. The iPhone is an successful phone because the designers treated the user interface as everything. Complaining about there only being a half an hour's worth of things to learn about the iPhone is a bit like picking up a book and complaining about the binding, the font face used, the choice of endpaper, and then admitting the novel is going to win the Nobel. That user interface you just jilted to the side is what most people buy phones for.

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/14/2008 10:18:30 PM # Q
And that's why Apple's cut build rates for the iPhone and iPod Touch by 60% from Q407 to Q108, even as they presumably add carriers, because they're flying right off the shelves. (http://www.smartphonetoday.com/articles/2008/2/2008-2-13-A-Slowdown-For.html)

Okey dokey.


RE: Another wheel invented
Geezer @ 2/15/2008 3:30:01 PM # Q
All of which makes this feature look a little strange doesn't it?
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/02/14/google_iphone_usage_shocks_search_giant.html
I suppose that's just Steve Jobs and Jonny Ives frantically searching Google all day trying to cover up that no one else has bought into their handheld disaster.
Looks as though they over did it a bit too.
To be fair, I don't think theiPhone is the last word in the business - yet.
Right now you can't use Flash on it, it doesn't yet work with MS Exchange Server (more important than most people would let on) and the Notes application doesn't do all that one would want - straightforwardly sync with a comupter so longish text can be made in a mobile situation and transfered for further editing etc.
However, it is a first generation device and it has made all the phone competitors think again - I dare you to admit that you have had to think of new ideas in the light of the iPhone - or just think about the leaked documens about the next generation of Windows Mobile, Microsoft internal planning documents that are obsessed with the iPhone, splattering mentions in nearly every paragraph...
but I digress, my original point was here is Plam, late to the game and doing a basic configuration tat only replicated what a lot of others are doing. Where is the new thinking? I would like to buy a new Palm device but why would I? Seriously I have a Treo 650. What new is there to have?
Once I gotPower Clip on it andfixed the 4k nonsense what else did I need?

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/15/2008 5:38:06 PM # Q
No, it doesn't seem strange to me at all. Doing searches on a iPhone is a lot easier, it's got a lot more screen real estate. I do a lot more web browsing on my Nokia N810, probably an order of magnitude more, than I do on my (much smaller) cell phone.

Everything's relative, but what seems certain is that Apple can't be planning on building (or, hence, selling) too many devices with large capacitive touch screens and flash-based mass storage in the coming quarter: they're not ordering the parts needed to make them to nearly the degree they were, as I've pointed out.

As far as the features of the iPhone go: No, you can't use Flash. No, you can't use a lot of Javascript-based web sites, either. No, you can't synch to Exchange. No, you can't do anything with an attachment to an email, really. No you can't send an SMS message to more than a single recipient. No, you can't send an MMS message at all. No, you can't use your A2DP Bluetooth headphones with your Bluetooth-enabled music-phone. No, you can't use a Bluetooth keyboard, either, Steve wants you to learn to "use the Force". No, you can't use an external Bluetooth GPS receiver, either, for that matter. And no, you can't add your choice of ringtones. No, you can't add your choice of wallpaper. No, you can't add your choice of applications. In fact, you can't add applications at all, just Safari widgets. And no, you can't change the battery or carry a spare, you'll just have to do without your phone for a day, or a a week, or two, when it needs changing (at a cost approximating a quarter or a third of the price of the unit as a whole)...

Good thing it's so easy to use!


RE: Another wheel invented
freakout @ 2/15/2008 7:56:57 PM # Q
^^ There you go with those facts, again. Who the hell do you think you are??!!
'Oh, yeah...there's just one more thing...'
akalefty @ 2/15/2008 8:16:12 PM # Q
Who the hell do you think you are??!!

An ex-long-time Apple employee. I know exactly how that "Reality Distortion Field" works.

Steve could bring out "the iSponge, with built-in iSoap", which would clean your whole house by itself (as long as you got it wet first and pushed it around) and much of the press (and a number of folks here) would write postings about how it was going to revolutionize everything we ever thought we knew about kitchens and soap, and that every company that made cleaning products was now doomed. (Some would start peddling conspiracy theories about an upcoming "iSponge Air", which would clean your whole house without your intervention, using WiFi mesh networking.)

People would stand in line in the rain for weeks in advance of its release, all for the privilege of paying $99.99 for one--which would come in a tasteful white box saying nothing on it but "Clean Different. iSponge." in Apple Garamond--even though it turned out that you could only use it to clean things that were white--it somehow wouldn't work on any other color--and once the soap ran out, you had to throw it away and buy a whole new one. Attempting to use you own soap with one would not only invalidate the warranty, but cause it to catch on fire.


RE: Another wheel invented
hkklife @ 2/15/2008 9:45:21 PM # Q
The new ThinkPad X300 makes the MacBook Air look positively sick. I expect more (read: cheaper) 'me too' wafer-thin subnotebooks w/ integrated optical drives in the coming year from the likes of Acer, Asus etc. If Lenovo doesn't hurry up and release a slightly cheaper version with a "regular" hard drive (80gb+) ASAP, they're gonna be left behind by the cheaper Asian manufacturers.

I went from a 1280x800 LCD to a 1440x900 in my new laptop and it makes a noticable difference. I'm really Apple didn't aim higher in the resolution department.

Now, if someone can just hurry up and release the equivalent of an X300 in the PMP/PDA market to blow the iPod Touch away...and then follow it up with an iPhone killer. In fact, I wish Acer, Lenovo, Asus or a similar entity would just go ahead and buy Palm and be done with it!



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Another wheel invented
nastebu @ 2/15/2008 10:51:09 PM # Q
*sigh* This argument is done to death.

As for facts, iPhones have been able to SMS multiple recipients since Jan 15, and the OS does support Javascript, although not Java. You've been able to make your own ringtones in Garageband since the fall, and you can view email attachments, which is certainly more than nothing.

Exchange support will be most likely sorted by the end of Feb when the SDK comes out (on time, by the way), and possibly Flash. They might also sort out the lack of todos and proper syncing with iCal, which would go a long way towards making me buy one of those damn things. And about the choice of applications, that's obviously about to change, and in a big way.

As for the argument that iPhone sales are tanking, the article you cited Lefty didn't actually say that. It said "build rates for the iPhone and iPod had been cut again, first by 50 percent from Q4 2007 to Q1 2008, and then to 60 percent." That's a very ambiguous statement as it probably includes all models of iPods, not just the Touch and the iPhone. Apple's Q4 announcement cited only a 5% increase in iPod sales compared to last Q4, which does mean that the growth rate of all iPod sales are down. On the other hand, revenue from iPod and iPhone sales was up 17%, which would imply that the more expensive models are selling well.

So for iPhone sales, who knows! Not me, not you, and no single analyst. For what it's worth, just in the last two weeks on PIC there have been two articles about how well the iPhone is doing in terms of customer satisfaction and market penetration.

RE: Another wheel invented
Geezer @ 2/16/2008 7:24:12 AM # Q
Also there is this about those fiendish commies at it again:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/02/15/report_400000_unlocked_iphones_loose_on_chinese_network.html

I don't want to appear as an unthinking, uncritical apologist for Apple and the iPhone but Palm doesn't do anything that competes in teh same way - nor would it have even considered doing so if it were not for the iPhone.
The iPhone is so uptodate, it makes you realise graphically, how old and stuck in the mud mindset the Palm platform is - Windows Mobile looks crappy too by comparison. That last fact is apparently not lost on Microsoft.
What we don't need from Palm or Access is another basic Linux variant which does te basics in a routine way (graphical interface and services) but doesn't re-think the whole use and driving purposes for a device in th way that the much despised iPhone already has.
We need everything current plus Flash, plus exchange and something more - maybe interoperability with documents and formats, something new to make it compelling as a purchase

RE: Another wheel invented
mikecane @ 2/16/2008 3:54:45 PM # Q
>>>But more importantly, given that the iPhone still has a less-than-one-percent share of the handset market, why should anybody care?

And ACCESS has what percent of that share? Geez, for a browser that is alleged to be on a HALF BILLION HANDSETS, why does Google tout the iPhone stats? (Let's see lefty deftly come up with "Well, the Netfront browser doesn't ID itself as such, or people can click an option that makes it cloak as Mozilla..." blah, blah, blah.)

I'm sure once the ACCESS execs got a load of what Apple devised as a phone UI, they got scared. They should be.

Now lefty old hat, tell me how fast ACCESS intends to steal all those Apple UI features. Just like Nokia. Just like Samsung. Just like Microsoft.

And as for you being able to run through iPhone's features in a "half hour" -- that's a negative? People can actually USE those features. Funny how now I've seen TWO people with PalmOS phones (Treo and Centro) pull out *iPods* when they wanted to listen to MUSIC. I'm sure the same thing will happen with ALP users too.

It's easy to see why you are *ex*-Apple. You never fit in. Had YOU designed an Apple OS, it'd be VISTA.

And, no, I don't bet money, period.

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/16/2008 4:53:25 PM # Q
It's easy to see why you are *ex*-Apple. You never fit in.

Tell me what I did in the course of my ten years at Apple, Mike.



RE: Another wheel invented
Geezer @ 2/17/2008 3:08:52 PM # Q
No come on, you tell us what you did - you keep suggesting that you were at Apple but knew better, now you're the big fish elad engineer at Access etc but you're too professional to say what, just drop a few hints that you really know a load more but can't verify things to the interested passers by frot eh lofty heights, blah, blah or 'reckon' as people might say in England - I suppose 'sure you are' would be the American equivalent.

By the way, I spent ten years at Buckingham Palace, OK I only worked in the ice cream stand outside the car park but everytime one of the big royals came or left I saw it all.

What is the Access wow factor? None. Its a very standard offering, a 'me too' product in an already over populated marketplace that doesn't stand out from existing competitors and looks as though it will get squashed by Google and Apple, curse them they don't deserve the success they get, its so unfair with their limited... (continues page 73 of Handheld Armchair Review)

What is it that Access/Palm can do that will outrun the iPhone/ Android platform let alone Nokia et al?
Genuine question this time.

I would love to have a serious answer that made me think I was wrong but I am afraid the million dollar/ pound question is actually only two hundred and sixty or so pounds: the price of a new device in a growing vibrant and uptodate format that gives the user something new, as well as all the previous facilities and a sense of currency, a sense of ease and style and convenience with moing data around and accessing it at home on the go and whereever and whenever they need it.

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/17/2008 9:30:11 PM # Q
No come on, you tell us what you did...

I was taunting Mike, who seems to be implying that he knows something the rest of the world is unaware of regarding my tenure at Apple. Fact is, he doesn't know the first thing about it. But if you insist:

Among other things, I initially worked on most of the Ethernet and Token Ring drivers for NuBus-based Macs, went on to lead the team that maintained and improved the MacTCP and AppleTalk stacks, did some of the initial design on Open Transport, worked on "Enterprise Systems" when Apple thought they could make a business there, was a tech lead on the Common Hardware Reference Platform, went back to manage the Open Transport group (between v1.1 and v1.2, so when it started to get good, that's right about the time I took over the group)... For what it's worth, before I became responsible for open source-related issues at ACCESS, I was director of the department that did the kernel, driver and low-ish-level middleware engineering. Satisfied? My resume's up on LinkedIn, if your really interested.

What is it that Access/Palm can do that will outrun the iPhone/ Android platform let alone Nokia et al?

Versus iPhone: it's got a truly open development environment, and doesn't lock developers into the jail of Safari widgets. It also allows unsigned applications to run within a sandbox of allowed APIs. There'll be a lot more possibilities for writing software on ALP devices. We can do these things because, unlike the iPhone, ALP has an actual security model. I'm not going to go into specific user interface comparisons, but we're not too worried about how an ALP-based system can compare. As only AT&T can sell the iPhone in the States for several years yet (and similar situations exist with other carriers in other geographies) there could potentially be a lot more manufacturers offering phones running ALP, and from a lot more carriers. I've already discussed the deep functionality shortages of the iPhone.

Versus Android: it remains to be seen what Android will look like on actual hardware, and the consensus is that it won't be out before 2009, at least six months after the first ALP phones are supposed to come out. No carriers have made specific commitments to carry Android phones, so the availability of them and the timing of that availability is anybody's guess. Android poses some significant difficulties for programmers as well: Java-only, and a pretty arcane application model, which represents a significant learning curve in and of itself. The new UI is quite horrible, if you've taken a look at it. If it's representative of the look of Android phones, then there's little for us to worry about; Android's overall functionality doesn't compare especially favorably with ALP, either, particularly on the applications side.

ALP can support programming in virtually any commonly supported language--unlike either the iPhone or Android. ALP represents an open programming environment--unlike either the iPhone or Android. ALP is highly customizable by device manufacturers, carriers and end users, unlike the iPhone; Android's customizability is so far unimplemented and hence unknown (you can't change the wallpaper there yet, either.) ALP is based on the mainstream of open source development--unlike either the iPhone or Android. Because of this, it's already well-known how to develop for ALP; standard GTK+ x86 programs can be rebuilt for ARM and will run fine there.

For device manufacturers, Apple is a competitor. There's no possibility of Samsung or LG or Motorola ever putting out an iPhone themselves; they're not about to get out of the business. The iPhone has actually been quite helpful to us, in terms of business development.

For carriers, Google is a potential competitor. They're the 800 pound gorilla in online advertising, and they'd dearly love to sew up the mobile market, too. It's open to speculation how far the carriers are willing to go in order to assist them in that quest. Google could, indeed, sell unlocked phones on their own, as could device manufacturers. This approach has its own risks and issues--handset vendors don't typically make handsets that don't have some reasonable degree of carrier support...

ALP compares favorably with Symbian as well, and I think people will find the user experience is far superior. I'm quite confident that ALP will enable our customers to compete more effectively with Nokia--something they have to do in any case--and I'm extremely confident that the developer community that will get behind ALP (drawn from both Garnet and open source developers) will come up with a raft of additional applications that will blow people away.

Don't forget, the cell phone business is big: the analysts I talk to believe that up to 50% of the smartphones sold 3 years from now could be based on Linux; the estimates of smartphone shipments by that time are a quarter of a billion per year.

RE: Another wheel invented
SeldomVisitor @ 2/18/2008 7:28:50 AM # Q
Garbaghe (high-class trash).

You've been taking courses in Marketing, huh?

For the rest of you out there, some old words from the Yahoo message boards about beliefs - though couched in investing terms, they apply to just pain old believing as well:

----

Words to remember:

== "...Information posted anywhere
== should not be used as a substitute for
== independent research, and should not be
== relied on to trade or make investment
== decisions. Prudent investors do their
== homework and don't believe everything they
== read anywhere..."
==
== "...Never assume people are who they say
== they are, know what they say they know, or
== are affiliated with whom they say they are
== affiliated..."

about those missing iPhones
nastebu @ 2/18/2008 12:52:43 PM # Q
There's an article in the New York Times today about the missing 1.4 million iPhones. Not so many are sitting on AT&T's shelves apparently. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/business/worldbusiness/18iphone.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

If this article is right, it shows a great deal of pent up demand world wide--far from slowing down sales.


RE: Another wheel invented
twrock @ 2/18/2008 7:49:17 PM # Q
"...Never assume people are who they say they are, know what they say they know, or are affiliated with whom they say they are affiliated..."

You're definitely right on that point!

I took you advice and did a little digging into this "Lefty" character on my own. Turns out that he is not David Schlesinger of ACCESS at all. It's been a elaborate scheme all along!

Turns out "Lefty" is really some guy over at..., get this..., Microsoft! His name is actually Milton Bradley.

Way back when Microsoft and Palm were sworn enemies, some MS exec types came up with a plan to "inject" Lefty into the Palm organization via a web personae. To complete the ruse, they planned on having Lefty spend months and even years doing nothing but convincing everyone that he really was with Palm. He was so thorough in his efforts that (according to my current sources at Palm), the Palm management team actually thought he existed and was a Palm employee!

At the time of the pa1mOne/PalmSource split,a decision was made in Redmond that "Lefty" should go with the PalmSource side. Obviously this was because pa1mOne did not pose the greatest threat to MS's plans for mobile OS domination, so they wanted their mole inside the OS "division".

So this game has been going for years now, and most are none the wiser.

But you ask me, "Why?" Good question. What purpose is it serving for MS to have only a personae and not a real person within what is now the ACCESS company? (MS certainly did not see the ACCESS acquisition coming either.)

The answer is simple. This hasn't yet played all the way out. In the end, after having established himself as a voice for PalmSource/ACCESS, Lefty will suddenly and without warning..., wait for this..., turn against ACCESS and unleash what will appear like nothing but completely true, insider criticism of ACCESS. Using the best of MS FUD techniques, Lefty will bring ACCESS to its knees. Lefty will have fooled everyone!

I know you are sitting there right now, completely shocked and stunned. But this is absolutely true. I did the research myself. I didn't listen to anything the Lefty has said about himself, so I can be sure nothing he has so clandestinely placed on the internet is influencing me in any way.

So thanks for that heads up. You saved me a ton of grief!


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/19/2008 2:31:20 AM # Q
You're a dead man.

RE: Another wheel invented
twrock @ 2/19/2008 4:16:57 AM # Q
Threats, huh? Keep that up Milton and I'll get a restraining order against you.

Ryan, I think you should ban Lefty for threatening me.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Another wheel invented
SeldomVisitor @ 2/19/2008 6:26:19 AM # Q
Lol!

When I included that entire Yahoo financial board warning I thought to myself:

== "Now someone's gonna miss the whole point of that and focus on the 'Don't believe
== the identity of the person" part. Should I cut that out? Nah..."

Giggle.


RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/19/2008 10:38:22 AM # Q
...I'll get a restraining order against you...

What, are you gonna have the court order that I don't get an IP address on the same subnet as you....?

RE: Another wheel invented
mikecane @ 2/19/2008 12:20:41 PM # Q
>>>Tell me what I did in the course of my ten years at Apple, Mike.

Well, you just did and made my point. All your stuff was under the hood. When it comes to UIs, pffft. Thanks for confirming that, Uncle Milty.

RE: Another wheel invented
freakout @ 2/19/2008 3:36:02 PM # Q
^^ Out of curiosity, Mike, what makes you an authority on the subject?
RE: Another wheel invented
akalefty @ 2/19/2008 6:21:45 PM # Q
Mike, are you somehow laboring under the impression that I'm personally responsible for the writing of ALP in its entirety...? 'Cause that'd seem to be the only context in which your comments make even marginal sense.

RE: Another wheel invented
twrock @ 2/19/2008 7:38:47 PM # Q
What, are you gonna have the court order that I don't get an IP address on the same subnet as you....?

I'm having my lawyers look into it.
In the mean time, if I can just get Ryan to ban you, then we can all go back to making stuff up and acting as if we really know a thing or two about all of this without you coming along and pointing out the technical errors in our incredibly insightful conclusions.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
Reply to this comment

Does it have any eye candy...

Surur @ 2/12/2008 5:33:23 AM # Q
... because if it doesn't it will surely be doomed.

Surur

RE: Does it have any eye candy...
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 2:55:16 PM # Q
Wait for it...
—Gary Burghoff as "Walter 'Radar' O'Reilly" in M*A*S*H*

Lefty - Netfront feedback
Surur @ 2/16/2008 7:29:35 AM # Q

As you are in the same company as the NetFront team (of which I have always been a fan) can you please give them some feedback about 3.5?

The left soft-key needs to be a simple back button and nothing else.

They need an on-screen zoom control, maybe a semi-transparent zoom bar that can come up when you touch the screen.

They should make the address bar auto-hide, and also make it semi-transparent, basically to maximise small screen real estate.

They should include a 320x480 virtual canvas, so you can use iPhone web-apps (ack!) :)

Surur

Lefty - Netfront feedback
Surur @ 2/16/2008 7:47:47 AM # Q

Also the full-screen zoomed out view should be the default, to aid with orientation and navigation, and then the user should zoom in to the area they want to read. Its annoying to zoom in on each page, but very disorientating not to know where you area and what else is on the page (the mini-map is too small to help with this).

Surur

RE: Does it have any eye candy...
akalefty @ 2/16/2008 2:49:26 PM # Q
Yes, it's the same company. I can pass those comments along.

RE: Does it have any eye candy...
akalefty @ 2/16/2008 3:06:38 PM # Q
Surur--

I forwarded your comments on, and I just stumbled across a feature you might find useful: if you double-tap on the (zoomed-in) screen, it gives you a rather less zoomed-out inset image of the current "page" with a focus rectangle you can then drag around to select a particular area. Not exactly the transparent zoom you were looking for, but if you wanted it to navigate around before zooming in again, this may cover you...

Lefty - Netfront feedback
Surur @ 2/18/2008 3:23:58 PM # Q

Thanks for passing my suggestions on. The zoomed-out view is nice, but should be as large as possible, and should be the default view, just like the iPhone.

Also the zoom slider I was thinking of would take the place of the multi-touch zoom gesture of the iPhone. At the moment to zoom to 75% you need to do Menu> View> Zoom> C, which is obviously not going to be used much.

Here's a quick mock-up, with the back button, the screen at 25% zoom and a zoom slider on the screen. Maybe one could touch the screen to set the focus, then use the zoom slider to zoom that area. I think the zoom slider and other control elements should only come on (briefly) when the screen is touched.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4002/zoomll0.jpg

So basically the page should load like this, you could either double tap in a certain area to zoom in to that area on the page, or single tap and use the slider to zoom in a variable amount, or if the text is already big enough on the page (e.g. a mobile web page) just continue with your normal reading etc.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Does it have any eye candy...
SeldomVisitor @ 2/18/2008 4:59:47 PM # Q
You should bill for your time.

Or, more correctly, ACCESS should see the value in your time.

RE: Does it have any eye candy...
Surur @ 2/18/2008 5:10:38 PM # Q
Just being able to pay for a good, user-friendly browser would be thanks enough.

Surur

RE: Does it have any eye candy...
akalefty @ 2/18/2008 6:24:52 PM # Q
I criticize Apple and Google all the time. Think I should start billing them...?

Thanks for the suggestions, Surur, I'll pass them along.

Reply to this comment

What does a Garnet layer mean?

bulls96 @ 2/12/2008 8:16:01 AM # Q
I am no software develper, but i have always wondered... Do we have to launch a separate application on ALP to be able to use native Palm Garnett apps or can we launch them right then and there on the UI?

I guess the same question applies to Palm Nova...

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
WareW01f @ 2/12/2008 8:50:23 AM # Q
I'm guessing that it will *look* like you are running direct from the launcher, but there will be a separate instance of the Garnet Layer wrapping your app (so if/when it blows up it effects not the other apps and the OS)I've been running the Garnet Emulator that ACCESS released for my N800 (which is also linux) If something blows up, it just goes away. :D
RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
CFreymarc @ 2/12/2008 10:18:39 PM # Q
For this to take off, it needs to be able to run all of the common third party Palm software. I'm sure what they mean is a "Garnet layer" will run the old software that so many people have on their older Palms.

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
akalefty @ 2/12/2008 10:46:56 PM # Q
No need to guess: all applications (all other things being equal) will show up in the same way in the "Launcher" application, whether they're native applications, legacy Garnet applications, or Java applications. To launch one, regardless of execution environment, you tap it (or move the focus to it and select it if you're touch-screen-less or using five-way navigation or a jog-wheel or something).

This is thanks to the Application and Bundle Manager components which we released as part of the open source Hiker Project (http://www.hiker-project.org) about a year ago...

"Garnet VM" is the ALP component which includes a full Garnet ROM as well as 68K emulation, etc., to enable legacy applications to run. In our testing, about 85% of 'em run just fine (and the others are fooling with hardware or doing other sketchy things, typically). You can download a beta version of Garnet VM which will run on your Nokia web tablet, if you happen to have one, and run your Garnet applications on that...

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
mikecane @ 2/13/2008 2:13:02 PM # Q
>>>You can download a beta version of Garnet VM which will run on your Nokia web tablet, if you happen to have one, and run your Garnet applications on that...

Why don't you tweak that Garnet VM to run on a device people actually *have* or *want* -- like the iPhone? You know, something with a real *market share*?

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 2:48:34 PM # Q
Why don't you tweak that Garnet VM to run on a device people actually *have* or *want* -- like the iPhone?

Oh, the under-powered, over-priced, closed, 2.5G sub-feature-phone that Apple's apparently having increasing trouble unloading....?

Well, you can't get an SDK for it, for starts. And when you can, you won't be able to do applications development for it, in any event.

I don't see a feasible implementation of Garnet VM as a widget inside Safari, myself, but maybe that's a lack of imagination on my part.

You know, something with a real *market share*?

Let's see. A maximum of 3 million devices sold out of a worldwide market of about a billion... That'd be, oh, less than a third of a percent. I guess it's "real" but that doesn't exactly make it "significant". Seems less than impactful to me, even if it were do-able...

Probably better than porting it to the "MacBook Air", though...I'm guessing they'll sell dozens of those.

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
freakout @ 2/13/2008 3:40:06 PM # Q
Oh, the under-powered, over-priced, closed, 2.5G sub-feature-phone that Apple's apparently having increasing trouble unloading....?

ROFL. Careful, Lefty. Pointing out those inconvenient facts tend to result in apoplectic explosions of Apple Cultist anger. Like smacking a beehive with a stick.

That's not to say it isn't fun, though...

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 3:45:43 PM # Q
Dude, I worked for a decade at Apple, pre- and post-Steve. If I'm not entitled to snark at 'em, nobody is...

(We used to say that Apple was a t-shirt company that also made computers. Now, they're an MP3 player company that also makes computers....)

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
mikecane @ 2/13/2008 9:15:52 PM # Q
>>>Let's see. A maximum of 3 million devices sold out of a worldwide market of about a billion... That'd be, oh, less than a third of a percent. I guess it's "real" but that doesn't exactly make it "significant". Seems less than impactful to me, even if it were do-able...

Show me ACCESS's ALP market share. Oops.

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
twrock @ 2/13/2008 9:57:28 PM # Q
LOL. It truly is good to have you back, and I hope you have the time to stick around for a while. The BS meter for this forum was getting really high and did need some adjusting.

(Hey Kris and Pat, bring some popcorn and get in here. There's something good on "TV" again.)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
twrock @ 2/13/2008 9:59:27 PM # Q
(Darn. I had that screen open way too long before replying. That "good to have you back" was meant for Lefty.)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
akalefty @ 2/14/2008 12:28:51 AM # Q
Show me ACCESS's ALP market share.

Show me the point lurking in there. Assuming, of course, that there was one.

You might want to consider these hyperthyroidal market share claims on Apple's behalf in light of the fact that Nokia sells as many units on a given weekend as Apple's sold iPhones in their entire existence.

The iPhone is a toy for fan-boys who don't mind spending too much money for too little functionality, a nice device for the simple-minded who prefer form over substance. Let me know when Steve decides you're old enough to take on the responsibility of choosing your own wallpaper and ring tones.

Oops.

What, did you fall down again...? Don't hurt yourself, Shakes. Sit down and see whether you can come up with a coherent response to my critique of your "iPod Air" theory.


RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
mikecane @ 2/16/2008 4:05:48 PM # Q
>>>Nokia sells as many units on a given weekend as Apple's sold iPhones in their entire existence.

Nokia sells crap. And the iPhone woke them up to the fact they sell crap.

And the only way they know how NOT to create crap, is to steal from Apple:

http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/quote-of-the-day-nokias-innate-ineptness/

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
akalefty @ 2/16/2008 11:27:05 PM # Q
RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
mikecane @ 2/19/2008 12:23:23 PM # Q
Oh that's funny. Especially since you revealed you weren't David Beers as I thought and which you did NOT bother to correct at my blog.

I don't give a damn what market share Nokia has. GM was once #1 globally. Where are they now? Wake up.

RE: What does a Garnet layer mean?
akalefty @ 2/19/2008 6:24:24 PM # Q
No, what's funny is your thinking that I'm David Beers in the first place. And why would I bother "correcting" the ignorant and ineducable?


Reply to this comment

I'm waiting for ALP on Android

JonAcheson @ 2/12/2008 10:15:34 AM # Q
Seriously, why root for the underdog, when you can ride the next big wave?

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."
RE: I'm waiting for ALP on Android
Poopie @ 2/12/2008 11:31:46 AM # Q
... and I'm waiting for ALP on iPhone so I can use Handyshopper and about 5 other most-missed Palm apps again.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: I'm waiting for ALP on Android
eastmanweb @ 2/13/2008 6:42:57 PM # Q
An iPhone with a port of the Garnet VM on it would be sufficient. ALP isn't necessary.

RE: I'm waiting for ALP on Android
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 7:04:05 PM # Q
Never say, "Never," butI'd call the likelihood of this ever happening vanishingly small, I'm afraid.

Reply to this comment

Android here and now

SeldomVisitor @ 2/12/2008 2:55:52 PM # Q
Android where and when...?
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 3:54:48 PM # Q
How exactly does "not on the market before, at best, the end of this year or, more probably, 2009" translate into "here and now", exactly...?

Just wonderin'.

(Oh, the "new Android UI" is a horror. Unless you really enjoy Scrabble.)

RE: Android here and now
SeldomVisitor @ 2/13/2008 4:13:57 PM # Q
RE: Android here and now
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 4:58:05 PM # Q
Yes, I know. Have you played with it...?

There are vast expanses on unimplemented functionality, last I checked. It's about as buggy as you'd expect, too, given that it could be charitably described as pre-pre-alpha. It's certainly nowhere close to "feature complete", by any stretch of the imagination.


RE: Android here and now
SeldomVisitor @ 2/13/2008 5:00:53 PM # Q
I downloaded it right after making that post but haven't yet played with it.

RE: Android here and now
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 5:21:29 PM # Q
I'd read the various Android mailing lists, too. Seems like every sixth question is "Can I run Android apps on my Sony-Ericsson P1i?" "No." "Can I put Android on my Motorola RAZR?" "No." "Can I...?" "No."

I'll be interested to see your assessment of it.

RE: Android here and now
mikecane @ 2/13/2008 9:18:29 PM # Q
>>>(Oh, the "new Android UI" is a horror. Unless you really enjoy Scrabble.)

It's not just that. I don't think they can pull it off. As I said in more words elsewhere on PIC when it was announced, every phone manufacturer will use just whatever *pieces* of it they need for a variety of price points. Hence, there will not be a universal Android OS. Do you agree? Or have I missed something?

RE: Android here and now
mikecane @ 2/16/2008 4:22:37 PM # Q
See, ask lefty a *real* tech Q and he runs away. Figures.

RE: Android here and now
akalefty @ 2/16/2008 4:50:51 PM # Q
Sigh. Y'know, it's the weekend, Michael: I've been at the movies, had dinner, run errands. I'm going out again shortly, so if I don't respond to you instantaneously enough, try not to blow a head gear.

But as long as I'm here:

First, there isn't a "a *real* tech Q" in there, and if you think there is, that shows how shallow your understanding of such things is.

Second, I'm not obligated to respond to anything, and certainly not according to your (unstated) time frames.

Third, I actually wrote a response inspired by this (sort of) line of questioning on your part, but it's a) too long, and b) too good, to stuff into a comment here and leave it at that. I'm in the process of repurposing it for use elsewhere.

However, to provide a quick response to what the Short Attention Span Theater contingent seems to be attempting to wander toward, no, it's not that simple. While the Apache license is non-reciprocal, and will allow people to use code licensed under it in any way they like, there are significant issues:

Android uses a hitherto-unseen graphics and interaction architecture, apparently called SDL. That, I suppose, could be lifted wholesale as a replacement for, say, GTK+ if there were value in it (and with facilities like compiz and clutter, it's not clear that there are significant advantages there). It'd have to be rewired into some set of compatibility APIs on the top side, I'd imagine, unless you planned that people were going to rewrite every single application in existence to conform to whatever-it-turns-out-to-be.

Similarly, the "Dalvik" virtual machine could, I suppose, be lifted, but it'd need to be rewired into a different UX stack (unless you took both it, and SDL, and whatever tributary dependencies fell out of that.) Again, much rewiring needed to get it to "connect" correctly to the more standard components used in mainstream Linux-based systems.

The libc implementation could be used as a replacement for glibc if one really needed a reason to get around the LGPL, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to, really. It's not as though it couldn't have been lifted from BSD previously.

Most of Android is in the libraries and support components, which—like the rest of Android—are weird, arcane, and unlike anything anyone's ever seen or worked on. (Kinda: the whole object-oriented application framework thing has been tried a million times, from Smalltalk to MacApp, and it's never proven to be popular. Similarly, the "perimeter" security model on which Android relies is a proven failure.)

The question is, what's in there that anyone would really want? Or better, what's in there that would be worth the effort of taking?

(The other question is, how much of the preceding did you actually understand?)

Reply to this comment

Hardware?

CFreymarc @ 2/12/2008 4:54:15 PM # Q
No matter what they say about "That wasn't us!", I cannot see any developer with bills to pay write for this until there is shipping hardware working with this OS. After the Cobalt crash, everyone is hesitant. I think this got out so to not overlap with the release of the iPhone developer kit later this month.
RE: Hardware?
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 2:10:45 PM # Q
Whether you can see 'em or not, there are already plenty of developers working with our SDK--many of them working under the Orange "Signature Accelerator Program"--and there have been for many months. We've shown native ALP versions of a number of third-party applications already.

Maybe it's where you're standing. Try moving a little to the right.

And no, we don't do things in response to rumors regarding Apple's "opening up" the iPhone for Safari-only non-standard web-widget development--and weren't they supposed to release that last month...? Our general release of the ALP SDK has been in the works for a good while now; we've been seeding it to selected developers through our "Fast Track" program for a year or more now to ensure that it'd be "ready for prime time" at this year's Mobile World Congress..

You might note that ACCESS is also spearheading the development of the LiMo Foundation's SDK. We didn't do that in response to Apple, either, but feel free to imagine differently, if you prefer.


RE: Hardware?
mikecane @ 2/13/2008 2:15:13 PM # Q
>>>Whether you can see 'em or not, there are already plenty of developers working with our SDK--many of them working under the Orange "Signature Accelerator Program"

Ah, Orange! Right, and I can go into an Orange Store exactly *where* here in America?

RE: Hardware?
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 2:53:03 PM # Q
Well, since Orange is the second-largest carrier in Europe, Mike, you can't.

However, I'm not aware of Orange's having an exclusive on the SGH i800, and--busy folks that they are--it seems not outside the bounds of reason that Samsung might make efforts to sell it into other carriers.

Maybe even some in America. Who knows? They might even sell 'em unlocked.

You have heard of "unlocked phones," I suppose.

RE: Hardware?
mikecane @ 2/13/2008 9:23:51 PM # Q
>>>You have heard of "unlocked phones," I suppose.

Duh.

RE: Hardware?
akalefty @ 2/14/2008 12:18:32 AM # Q
Duh.

I'm guessing that's a "yes." Grunt again and scratch if I'm right.


RE: Hardware?
mikecane @ 2/16/2008 4:23:21 PM # Q
I would fart in your general direction too, except you'd enjoy that.

RE: Hardware?
akalefty @ 2/16/2008 11:24:21 PM # Q
You've always had class, Mike.

Remedial reading class, but nonetheless...


Reply to this comment

Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...

akalefty @ 2/12/2008 5:03:22 PM # Q
You folks might find the press release at http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=219061 of interest.

Yves Maitre says, "Our vision is for a truly open mobile community which delivers richer mobile services, more affordable devices and a better experience for our customers. We have already achieved part of this vision through the foundation of the LiPS Forum. Today, we are taking great strides forward, firstly by joining LiMo as a Founder member and unifying the mobile Linux industry and secondly, collaborating with Samsung and ACCESS to provide our customers with the first fully open Linux-powered device from Orange," he adds.

...

Toru Arakawa, CEO, president and co-founder of ACCESS says, "ACCESS has a longstanding dedication to mobile Linux innovation and we are thrilled to offer the first handset to be powered by ACCESS Linux Platform together with Orange and Samsung. Toru concludes, "Being the first to deliver a Linux-powered platform for the Samsung i800 illustrates our commitment and vision to the best mobile Linux innovations for the best end-user experience."

Then there's this article at http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5795116707.html as well.

ALP to power new Samsung/Orange phone

The ALP Development suite has been field-tested by several independent software vendors (ISVs) since early 2007, says Access. These ISVs reportedly include those creating mobile applications for Orange's "Orange Application Platform" (OAP).

Orange is Europe's second-largest carrier, and is based in the U.K. and owned by France Telecom. It plans to ship its first open, mobile Linux handset later this year. Manufactured by Samsung, the phone will use ALP middleware and run applications adhering to Orange's OAP specifications.

The OAP platform is said to reinforce an Orange strategy to unify branded interfaces across its diverse range of Orange Signature phones, says Access. Orange hopes to better integrate communications between media applications, and provide a more consistent customer experience across a variety of devices and operating systems.

Enjoy!

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
mikecane @ 2/12/2008 8:39:52 PM # Q
>>>Manufactured by Samsung, the phone will use ALP middleware and run applications adhering to Orange's OAP specifications.

*ALP middleware*

So for all intents and purposes to end-users, it won't look anything like what ACCESS is touting as ALPOS.

They've evicted your GUI.

YAWN.

FAIL!

Next.

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
akalefty @ 2/12/2008 9:33:31 PM # Q
I believe that the "FAIL" here may rather be in your understanding (or lack thereof) of the nature of the mobile communications industry, Mike.

Carriers and device manufacturers want to be able to customize the user experience to meet their product needs; they're not pipes to enable us (necessarily, anyway) to push what we think is best onto their customers. Approaching things this way is how ACCESS has always gone about our business, and it's been a very successful approach--fully half a billion copies of NetFront have gone out in the world in this fashion.

This is the entire point of, for example, the Orange Signature Accelerator Program (http://www.presseportal.de/text/story.htx?nr=1133590)--something we've been collaborating with Orange on for a while now: organizations like Orange want to create a particular sort of user experience, one which will enhance their service offerings and differentiate their products. We help them do that. Our "middleware" (which is really everything above the kernel, up to the individual application level) is what powers the device.

That's why the ACCESS Linux Platform was singled out as being the "Orange-approved Linux platform" a full year and a half ago (http://www.access-company.com/news/press/PalmSource/2006/081306_alporange.html)...



RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
freakout @ 2/12/2008 10:15:29 PM # Q
Lefty - three questions:

*Will the i800 look like the ALP screenshots we've seen so far?
*ALP supports UMTS/HSDPA, right?
*Does ACCESS have any rough dates on when the first ALP phones will ship?

Given that a Palm OS Treo with UMTS won't be on the scene until at least 2009, a similar ALP phone w/ the Garnet VM might be just the ticket for me. Provided they come out before Palm gets their act together.

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
akalefty @ 2/12/2008 10:35:18 PM # Q
Will the i800 look like the ALP screenshots we've seen so far?

Sorry, can't say, it's not our phone, just our software. It's up to Orange whether or when to publicize the look and feel (and appearance, and specs, etc.) of their device.

ALP supports UMTS/HSDPA, right?

Only if the hardware does.

Does ACCESS have any rough dates on when the first ALP phones will ship?

Well, Yve Maitre of Orange says it'll ship by June (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/10/business/msft11.php). I'd imagine he should know.


RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
freakout @ 2/12/2008 11:00:39 PM # Q
It's up to Orange whether or when to publicize the look and feel (and appearance, and specs, etc.) of their device.

Can I put it another way - in previous dealings with Orange, have they shown a tendency to prefer their own UI? I ask 'cause as it is the ALP UI looks like a true heir to Palm OS and it'd be a shame to see it tinkered with too much.

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 12:00:23 AM # Q
You can put it any way you like, but other than that I expect that people who were/are fond of the Garnet user experience would find plenty to like on the i800, there's not really much I can say about it, sorry.

Like I keep saying, it's not our phone, it's powered by our software. The cellphone business is very competitive, and it really irks our customers if we pre-announce their product plans for them. So we don't do that.


RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
SeldomVisitor @ 2/13/2008 5:11:07 AM # Q
I'm not sure I get this "own user interface" controversy.

PALM sold (*) TREO 500s to Vodafone that have a Vodafone, not PALM, user interface.

And...you know...hasn't the Open Handset Alliance (or whatever that Android group's name is) specifically said the user interface is ultimately up to the device manufacturer?

No one seems to think anything of this. Why is it controversial for ACCESS to sell THEIR software to Orange with Orange having their own user interface?

=======

(*) Actually - the nonPALMness of the TREO 500 pretty much from A to Z generated remarkably little "controversy" discussion, IMHO!

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
freakout @ 2/13/2008 6:42:11 AM # Q
Why is it controversial for ACCESS to sell THEIR software to Orange with Orange having their own user interface?

It's not. I was just curious. (assuming the question was directed at me...)

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
SeldomVisitor @ 2/13/2008 6:53:26 AM # Q
Nah, not directed at anyone - just a general blunderbuss shot.

[btw - a previous post of mine had "(lie...none)" which, of course, should have been "(like...none)"]


RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 11:04:16 AM # Q
No, it's not controversial (or shouldn't be, certainly). It's just that Mike can't be happy unless he's got something to be unhappy about.


RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
hkklife @ 2/13/2008 11:30:14 AM # Q
Lefty;

Are you at liberty to discuss anything at all in regards to ALP's PC-based components---will anything similar to the old Palm Desktop be available and/or what about non-XP OSes (Mac, Linux, Vista etc)? Palm Inc. has had a horrendous time in regards to moving past the circa 2001 Win XP and even the current Access Palm Desktop for Vista leaves much to be desired from a functionality standpoint and integration with Palm's current product line. Is that an Access choice or a carrier choice? And should users expect carrier/customer customizations on the desktop software side as well? Please forgive me if this has been addressed earlier or elsewhere.

Also, what should current Palm OS users expect from ALP as far as a migration/PIM data importing process? Will it be a painless, easy transition? I'm not speaking about legacy apps under the Garnet emultion layer. My first and foremost concern is my 11+ years of PIM data.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 2:01:49 PM # Q
Okay, I've checked in with our engineering folks, and--as standards parts of ALP--we offer both an "ACCESS Desktop" program (which includes the capability to synch with an Exchange server) as well as a utility to let you migrate your old PIM data to the new PIM apps.

I can't speak to what form, if any, these particular features will take in the context of the Orange-branded SGH i800, specifically, sorry...

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
mikecane @ 2/13/2008 2:19:13 PM # Q
>>>No, it's not controversial (or shouldn't be, certainly).

Oh sure it is! Imagine the poor customer seeing all these different phones with vastly different launchers and being told they're *ALL* "ACCESS-compatible."

People had enough trouble wrapping their heads around *CLIEs* running PalmOS.

Like I said: FAIL.

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 2:40:45 PM # Q
Oh sure it is! Imagine the poor customer seeing all these different phones with vastly different launchers and being told they're *ALL* "ACCESS-compatible."

And if the same third-party software can run on all of 'em....? But keep right on saying "FAIL", if you feel obsessively impelled to do so.

Choice is a wonderful thing.

People had enough trouble wrapping their heads around *CLIEs* running PalmOS.

I hadn't noticed this, myself. Which people are these, exactly, and what other cognitive issues are they suffering from...?

You really need to brush up on your technical 5k1llZ (not to mention your grammatical 5k1llZ): there's a difference between the presentation and the "user experience stack". Or were you perhaps somehow unaware that, for example, you can, with great ease, radically customize and tweak the appearance of, say, your Linux desktop system and still run all the same programs...!?

Live in the Future, Mike: It's starting Now.


RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
mikecane @ 2/16/2008 4:26:03 PM # Q
>>>Choice is a wonderful thing.

Yeah, let's see. ACCESS will give you a choice of one Orange phone or fall-apart cheapies from the Happy Lucky Dragon Phone Co of the PRC.

>>>I hadn't noticed this, myself. Which people are these, exactly, and what other cognitive issues are they suffering from...?

Of course YOU wouldn't. Were you ever out and about in *stores* watching sales reps trying to convince *real people* that CLIEs were also PalmOS devices. I don't think so.

RE: Just to Spare You All the Bother of Making Stuff Up...
akalefty @ 2/16/2008 4:58:14 PM # Q
I guess experience working the floor in Best Buy affords one certain opportunities that have been denied me, Mike.

So, what you're saying here is that when device manufacturers and carriers tell us that they want to differentiate their products, they're simply wrong and we should tell them so. Is that it...?

Reply to this comment

Garnet VM on Nokia internet tablets

jimn367 @ 2/13/2008 12:49:35 PM # Q
Lefty,
Can/will you comment on whether there will be a more robust Garnet VM for the Nokia internet tablet family? I would love to have a modern [ACCESS/Palm] PDA experience.

RE: Garnet VM on Nokia internet tablets
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 1:07:16 PM # Q
I can't speak to that right now. The version of Garnet VM out there is a beta, we released to assist with our compatibility testing. It's possible we might issue another update, but I can't commit to or confirm that for you, sorry.


RE: Garnet VM on Nokia internet tablets
SeldomVisitor @ 2/13/2008 1:09:01 PM # Q
> ...[we released a beta of Garnet]...It's possible we might issue another update...

That is to say, the bean counters are trying to decide if spending the funds to get the beta into Production shape is worth it.

RE: Garnet VM on Nokia internet tablets
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 1:16:03 PM # Q
No, that's to say that we've got other fish to fry, and--like every organization--fewer than infinite engineering resources to devote to everything that anyone would like us to be doing for their specific benefit.

Laws of physics, y' know.


RE: Garnet VM on Nokia internet tablets
jimn367 @ 2/13/2008 4:39:17 PM # Q
Thanks for the reply. I cannot be the only person who would love, and would be willing to pay, to have some ACCESS/Palm goodness on a Nokia 810. I might finally get my Sony UX-50 successor!

On-line apps aren't good enough - I want my DTG and Agendus on a modern large screen PDA!

Keep up the good work - I have no preferences, loyalty, or hard feelings. I just want a great next gen PDA and smartphone platform. I don't care whether it says powered by [Palm] or powered by [ACCESS]- somebody just get something great out there!

RE: Garnet VM on Nokia internet tablets
akalefty @ 2/13/2008 5:17:49 PM # Q
Well, I don't think there's anything to stop you from downloading the beta of Garnet VM for the N810 (I'd suggest upgrading to the newest OS 2008 firmware from Nokia, if you haven't already), and running those particular apps. (If there is a problem running 'em, let us know, that's why it's out there).

In terms of "willing to pay", we're (so far) not really an end-user sales sort of organization, particularly—that requires a support organization of some substantial size. We do, from time to time, release "beta versions" of stuff that we'd benefit from putting in the hands (for some period, anyway) of a broad spectrum of potential users of the technology.

We've just put out a "beta" version of NetFront 3.5 for WinMob 5 (Sorry! Sorry!) that's got a lot of whizzy features (see http://www.access-company.com/products/netfrontmobile/browser/35_wm_tp.html) as a freely available download. I'm actually charging up my iPaq to give this a try (after digging it out of my "little-used technologies" box and scraping the dust off it...)


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