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Comments on: webOS 1.2.1 Update Now Available

webos 1.2.1 Palm Inc. has released its second webOS update in a week. Reports are now coming in that webOS v1.2.1 started showing up late friday afternoon and Palm has now posted the full details on its support site.

The update weighs in at 38MB and primarily brings back iTunes 9.0.1 synchronization support and resolves a number of critical issues for Microsoft Exchange users which were introduced in the v1.2 update. In addition to restoring media sync, the Palm Pre can now sync photo albums from within iTunes.

The full change list is posted after the break.

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Not for Canadians!

loftwyr @ 10/3/2009 9:20:34 AM # Q
Bell subscribers need not check...
PalmPilot Pro -> Palm 3 -> Palm 5 -> Palm 505 -> Palm T3 -> Treo 700p -> Pre
Any guesses...
jca666us @ 10/3/2009 9:51:19 AM # M Q
how long before apple breaks their latest hack??
RE: Not for Canadians!
LiveFaith @ 10/3/2009 1:12:29 PM # Q
Probably not long. :-)

I love the fact that Palm continues to make a way to crack Apple's stranglehold on syncing. I love the concept, even if Apple found a way to allow the iPhone to sync PIM data with Palm Desktop. It's good for the users if they need it.
Pat Horne

RE: Not for Canadians!
Gekko @ 10/3/2009 8:36:52 PM # Q

canada lives off of the goodwill of the American people.

RE: Not for Canadians!
ChiA @ 10/3/2009 9:52:38 PM # Q
canada lives off of the goodwill of the American people

and Palm lives off the good work of the iTunes people!

RE: Not for Canadians!
rsc1000 @ 10/4/2009 12:01:40 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:

canada lives off of the goodwill of the American people.

Hows that exactly? You didn't save us in any wars and never helped us out of any crisis.

Canada is America's #1 supplier of energy (not the middle-east). We also provide a lot of other natural resources that you need. Increasingly - that includes fresh water.

Now be nice - or we'll show you who lives off of who's goodwill :)

now back to the topic...

RE: Not for Canadians!
bhartman34 @ 10/4/2009 4:25:38 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
how long before apple breaks their latest hack??

I don't know the exact details, but it could be a long time, based on the pattern we're starting to see. There are, after all, only so many meta tags in the USB-IF data for Apple to use. After that, they have to create their own identifier in their firmware. Finding a way to do that without breaking anything might be a challenge, considering how many different devices we're talking about in their line-up.


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When will you learn?

Gmon750 @ 10/3/2009 11:40:20 AM # Q
Palm whines to the USB forum about Apple's actions.
USB forum slaps Palm for behaving like spoiled brat.
USB forum informs Palm that Apple has every right to do what they are doing.
Palm has a hissy-fit and decides to continue their childish rant.

There was a time Palm was the company with class. No more. As a (former) palm developer, Palm has just validated my reasons for leaving. Palm has reached status of trailer-trash company.

Palm, get of your soapbox about "consumer choice" which we all know is just a thinly-veiled attempt to hide your inability (or refusal) to develop your own interface.

So sad.

RE: When will you learn?
CFreymarc @ 10/3/2009 8:52:07 PM # Q
Yup, it is the same "wok, wok, wok" for me too. No native code compiler, suppressing independent developers on their store, cat and mouse with iTunes ... the list goes on. Corporate karma is a bitch and I don't want to be around when this goes down. I barely watch this board anymore.
RE: When will you learn?
LiveFaith @ 10/3/2009 10:22:23 PM # Q
C'moooon. We haven't had this much fun around here since the Xerox lawsuit. Lighten up a little!
Pat Horne
RE: When will you learn?
Tim Carroll @ 10/4/2009 3:58:47 AM # Q
Palm, get of your soapbox about "consumer choice" which we all know is just a thinly-veiled attempt to hide your inability (or refusal) to develop your own interface.

What a ridiculous statement. You would have users locked into using a proprietary Palm solution rather than the one of their choice?

Palm is not a PC desktop software company. Palm is a mobile computing company. As such, their role in the 21st century, where everyone has their own personal favourite media software package, is to enable users to sync with whatever the hell they want and not get in the way.

Apple are the ones who keep this tired game going. Put aside your admitted bias against Palm for a minute and think about this: what is best for the consumer?

The answer is obvious. It's choice. Apple are actively working against it. And therefore they are working against us, the end-users.

Palm may have things wrong in other areas, but in this they're right on the freaking money.

Further reading, and more eloquently stated than I've previously put it:

http://www.slate.com/id/2229856/

What's more, the iTunes block is hypocritical. Like every other tech company, Apple has benefited enormously from the spirit of interconnectedness that pervades the tech industry. The iPod would have fizzled if Microsoft had blocked it from hooking up to Windows PCs. Or look at the iPhone—Apple is proud that it can sync with Outlook, Microsoft Exchange, Gmail, Yahoo, and just about everything else. Indeed, you could argue that Apple, once left for dead on the periphery of the tech industry, managed to come back only because it skillfully marketed Macs as the most promiscuous computers you could buy. Around the turn of the century, Jobs began touting the Mac as a "digital hub" for your home. You know what he meant? That the Mac would hook up with anything. Clearly, the pitch worked: Apple still sells Macs by pointing to the ability to connect to Windows networks and their easy compatibility with third-party printers, cameras, and other devices. The latest version of the Mac OS can even automatically sync with Microsoft Exchange—something not even Windows does.

Apple defenders might argue that the company connects with systems only when it has the legal right to do so; Apple isn't hacking its way into compatibility, and we should resent Palm for doing so. But that's a circular argument. Palm had to resort to hacking only because Apple closed down any legal paths for entry—making illegal the very same sort of compatibility that Apple itself has long depended on. Hacking was Palm's only option.

What's more, Apple itself hasn't been shy about achieving compatibility through means that other companies consider "hacking." Look at Samba, the fantastic open-source project that lets non-Windows computers connect to Windows networks. The project began as a hack: In 1991, Andrew Tridgell, then a Ph.D. student at the Australian National University, reverse-engineered the traffic on his local network to figure out how to communicate with Microsoft machines. Over several years, his effort grew into what is now the main way for Unix-based machines to share files with Windows. Microsoft long took a dim view of Samba; in 2007, after years of legal wrangling, European regulators forced it to allow Samba to interoperate freely with Windows. But Apple didn't wait for that ruling—it built Samba into the Mac OS in 2002. In other words, so what if Microsoft didn't like Samba? Apple needed to build an OS that connected to Windows, and Samba was the best way to accomplish that.


RE: When will you learn?
jca666us @ 10/4/2009 5:13:09 AM # Q
Tim,

>What a ridiculous statement. You would have users locked into using a
>proprietary Palm solution rather than the one of their choice?

I agree - your statement is ridiculous - users aren't locked into itunes.

>Palm is a mobile computing company.

I see you're not calling Palm a software company :)

Palm *is* a software company - however, with the impending layoffs they
will have less resources available to develop their own desktop sync solution.

Palm should at least *partner* with a company that provides such software.

Instead they continue to hack their way into itunes. Someone should tell Ruby he doesn't work at Apple any more.

>what is best for the consumer?

Having a pre with a stable syncing solution. The way Palm can achieve that is by developing or licensing their own solution.

Tim, posting a long wordy article is not going to make your position tenable.

RE: When will you learn?
vetdoctor @ 10/4/2009 9:06:20 AM # M Q
Palm *is* a software company -
And Apple is a music store and should get used to that fact and do whatever it takes to sell more music.

Now if *I* were running Apple I would not only let Palm and others directly sync with my store-because its good for me- I would also have sub-stores to sell programs for their equipment. Just to tweak Palm's nose I would sell Pre programs for a year at n/c to the developers...just to help palm out you know.

RE: When will you learn?
twrock @ 10/4/2009 9:15:42 AM # Q

(I think this time it was just an italics tag, yes?)

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: When will you learn?
twrock @ 10/4/2009 9:18:16 AM # Q

(Dang, missed!)

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: When will you learn?
jca666us @ 10/4/2009 12:27:56 PM # Q
>Apple is a music store and should get used to that fact and do whatever it
>takes to sell more music.

Actually, Apple is a hardware and software company.

itunes is the music store. Since most of Apple's profits come from selling hardware that integrates into itunes, it would not be in their best interests to open everything up.

>Now if *I* were running Apple I would not only let Palm and others directly
>sync with my store-because its good for me- I would also have sub-stores
>to sell programs for their equipment. Just to tweak Palm's nose I would sell
>Pre programs for a year at n/c to the developers...just to help palm out you
>know.

So you'd run Apple into the ground.

Maybe you should head up Palm's turnaround efforts...

RE: When will you learn?
Tim Carroll @ 10/4/2009 4:25:09 PM # Q
Don't bother with the troll-bot, vetdoctor. There's no point.

Now let me by a hypocrite and do exactly that:

itunes is the music store. Since most of Apple's profits come from selling hardware that integrates into itunes, it would not be in their best interests to open everything up.

Don't you get it yet, troll-bot? (Of course you don't, you're not actually a real person.)

It's not about what's best for Apple. It's about what is best for Apple's paying retail customers.

Companies do not always have to be looking out for numero uno. If a bricks-and-mortar retail store tried this shit - banning anyone who didn't own a special piece of co-branded hardware from bringing their shopping cart into the store - there would be an outcry, and with good reason. It's corporate greed at its worst.

It might be legal. They may be well within their rights. But it's a dick move nonetheless.

RE: When will you learn?
jca666us @ 10/4/2009 6:59:58 PM # Q
>It's not about what's best for Apple. It's about what is best for Apple's
>paying retail customers.

What's best for Apple's retail customers is to do what they do best:

Make money in order to fund R&D and stay in business.

That's a lesson Ruby hasn't learned - since:

1. Palm is teetering on bankruptcy.
2. Palm hasn't put any R&D into their own syncing solution.

Also, since when do you care about Apple's customers? You're a Palm shill 100% Palm is only doing this to increase awareness of the Pre and to give them some PR.

>Companies do not always have to be looking out for numero uno.

Well, companies need to protect their IP - and it is Apple's IP in the case of itunes. Definitely a sour grapes dick-bag move by Ruby to have the Pre mis-identify itself as an Apple device.

>If a bricks-and-mortar retail store tried this shit - banning anyone who didn't
>own a special piece of co-branded hardware from bringing their shopping
>cart into the store - there would be an outcry, and with good reason. It's
>corporate greed at its worst.

I don't know what's worse - your blatant exaggeration or your lack of understanding regarding this situation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://hunter.pairsite.com/blogs/20091004/

On Palm, Competition, and iTunes Sync
Back when the Pre was announced, a frequent conversation topic among developers was "competition" -- as in, it would be great to have some healthy competition against the iPhone. At the time, the Pre looked promising, and seemed to be the first viable competitor to come along and really challenge the iPhone. Sadly, nine months later, what could have been competition has really just become a tired, childish annoyance. Whatever hype and capital Palm built up around the launch of the Pre has been squandered on a pointless and trivial cat and mouse game with Apple over iTunes sync. The saddest part is that this was totally unnecessary, though Palm wants you to think otherwise.

You see, Palm doesn't need the iTunes app to sync the Pre. They don't need to draw Apple's ire, or play yo-yo with their customers over this important capability. They can sync the Pre to a customer's iTunes music library with a public, open, and documented approach that has been used by third-party developers and device makers for years. This capability was created by none other than Apple itself.

Turns out it's a simple matter of reading the iTunes music library XML catalog file on a customer's computer, and using that to create a sync capability for the Pre. Not only is that XML file plain-text and human readable, it's got a published document type definition (DTD). Apple has developed this XML approach specifically "to make your music and playlists available to other applications" (see KB HT1660).

On the Mac, you can see this "iTunes Music Library.xml" file in:

/Users/username/Music/iTunes/

On Windows, it's located in:

\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents\My Music\iTunes
Combined with the music files indexed by this XML catalog, you have everything you need to know to access or sync iTunes music. I don't know how Apple could be any more open or flexible about this. Clearly they took this approach to give customers access to their music in a manner independent of iTunes and Apple, now and in the future, since a well written XML file is almost like a self contained fossil record. As we've heard from Steve Jobs before, Apple is keenly aware of the issues surrounding online music sales, both from the standpoint of protecting the intellectual property of musicians and record labels, and the rights of customers.

Why Palm can't respect or understand this is beyond me. In one press statement, Palm spokeperson Lynn Fox said: "Palm believes that openness and interoperability offer better experiences for users by allowing them the freedom to use the content they own". Well, the problem is, nobody was blocking that freedom. In fact, Apple went an extra step to make sure that freedom was available to customers and third-party developers, independent of the iTunes app. But really, is it even Palm's place to be the sheriff on this topic? I don't think so.

Clearly, other companies know how to sync painlessly with iTunes music (see RIM's Blackberry Media Sync for example), so why doesn't Palm develop a syncing solution for their own hardware? The exact reason is unknown, but my guess is that it's a combination of things. Perhaps Palm doesn't have the resources to develop their own sync app. Or maybe they want some publicity. Or maybe they just want to push Apple's buttons. Who really knows. But I seriously question the strategy and brains of any company that ties critical product capabilities to the unsupported use of their competitor's software. I mean, really? Can it get any more ridiculous? Can you possibly send a more mixed, less confidence-inspiring, "we're a bunch of hacks who can't provide our own sync software for our products" message to customers?

As for Apple, it's obvious why they don't want Palm using the iTunes app -- it takes away a competitive advantage and adds a support burden with no real payoff. One reason that the iPod/iPhone and iTunes have been successful is that they work so well together. In the past, other companies just haven't been able to get this combination right, but Apple did, and they invested a lot of time and money to get it right. To let a competitor walk in and use the iTunes app capability as a selling point for a competing device obviously doesn't make sense from Apple's perspective. And since Apple nets about ten cents per song sold, any music sales revenue they'd gain from enabling a device like the Pre, with a user base that is less than 0.3% the size of the iPod/iPhone user base, would surely be chump change compared to lost hardware revenues (where they make tens or hundreds of dollars per device).

With the recent webOS 1.2.1 release, Palm is also using iTunes to sync photos (in addition to re-enabling music sync). So their dependence on iTunes grows. What's more, Palm has resorted to spoofing multiple USB IDs, including Apple's USB Vendor ID, Manufacturer ID, and product ID, and even using an iPod serial number when connecting to iTunes. Besides giving a big eff-you to the USB Implementer's Forum standards body, this sends a strong message that Palm is unwilling to offer their own sync solution and will instead do whatever it takes to keep expanding their use of iTunes, regardless of the legality or ethics.

Healthy competition? Not even close.

RE: When will you learn?
bhartman34 @ 10/4/2009 10:29:14 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
>Apple is a music store and should get used to that fact and do whatever it
>takes to sell more music.

Actually, Apple is a hardware and software company.

itunes is the music store. Since most of Apple's profits come from selling hardware that integrates into itunes, it would not be in their best interests to open everything up.

I agree with you, based on the evidence, that the music store isn't a big seller for Apple. However, I think their model is changing, if only slightly. The thing that Apple is pushing at this point is apps, which are delivered over the air, without the need for iTunes. iTunes really just helps Apple with the legacy iPods, which can't download over the air. There isn't anything that iTunes does that they can't do without it. At this point, iTunes shouldn't be such a large part of Apple's strategy, because that's where they're vulnerable (as this incident shows).

I'm not suggesting that Apple will, or even should, discontinue iTunes. At this point, they've got too much invested in saving face to abandon it. But what you're starting to see now (particularly in their commercials) is an emphasis on features that don't rely on iTunes, both because other companies (e.g., BlackBerry, Palm) are finding their way into iTunes, and because wifi and unlimited data plans make streaming content more practical than it used to be. I'm not talking about the "cloud", mind you, but you're always going to be able to store more media on your home computer than on a portable device.


RE: When will you learn?
Tim Carroll @ 10/5/2009 1:00:03 AM # Q
What's best for Apple's retail customers is to do what they do best:

Make money in order to fund R&D and stay in business.

Oh, I see. So in that case, you'd also agree with the proposition that Apple should start charging $10 for every iPhone OS update, double the prices on music in the store and triple those on video?

Well, companies need to protect their IP - and it is Apple's IP in the case of itunes.

Again with the IP protection argument? For the zillionth time, Apple's IP is not being violated. An IP violation would be if Palm were actually making an alteration to the iTunes software. An IP violation would be distributing custom versions of iTunes to Pre owners. An IP violation would be if Palm had copied some software secret sauce that allows syncing (which they can't, because there is no secret sauce. Just an abitrary, weak-ass block thrown up by Apple for no reason other than giving people another reason to buy an iPod.).

But they're not. All the work (what little is required) is done on the Pre's end. iTunes works exactly as Apple programmed it to.


Also, since when do you care about Apple's customers? You're a Palm shill 100% Palm is only doing this to increase awareness of the Pre and to give them some PR.

Maybe. But why should that concern anybody who isn't an Apple shareholder? The end result for us end-users is the same: a more open ecosystem. Apple are not going to go bankrupt if the Pre syncs directly with iTunes.

I also care because more and more nowadays, iTunes gets exclusive bonus songs and other material that you can't get elsewhere. (One of my favourite bands, for instance, has a couple of iTunes-exclusive tracks.) You should be able to purchase and sync this material freely from iTunes itself without having to be an iPod/iPhone owner, too. It's a matter of principle.

As for Hunter's latest missive, he misses the point entirely, which is that iTunes users shouldn't need to use PalmTunesSync or some other third-party package to sync their purchases. Computer hardware and software should interoperate freely, a principle Apple themselves clearly see the value in - else they wouldn't be using Samba to emulate Windows networking on the Mac. Or allowing Google syncing etc etc.

And 'support burden'? What a load of crap. Palm are doing all the legwork to enable the syncing. Apple have already let people know loud and clear that they're not going to support third-party devices (which, BTW, is not the same as "deliberate break compatibility with third-party devices"). There is no 'support burden' whatsoever. It's a straw man.


RE: When will you learn?
nastebu @ 10/5/2009 4:20:03 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
Again with the IP protection argument? For the zillionth time, Apple's IP is not being violated. An IP violation would be if Palm were actually making an alteration to the iTunes software. An IP violation would be distributing custom versions of iTunes to Pre owners. An IP violation would be if Palm had copied some software secret sauce that allows syncing (which they can't, because there is no secret sauce. Just an abitrary, weak-ass block thrown up by Apple for no reason other than giving people another reason to buy an iPod.).

Those things would make it an illegal violation of Apple's intellectual property, rather than just a moral one. Apparently Apple has no legal recourse here, but that doesn't make what Palm is doing some sort of righteous crusade. Apple invests intellectual capital in developing iTunes. Palm is trying to get a free ride on that. Legally seems to be fine, but at very least it seems like kind of bad manners.

Apple does restrict iTunes in order to give people a reason to buy an iPod. That is how they make money off of what is, after all, commercial software. If you accept capitalism as a legit economic system, there's nothing morally wrong with that.

That said, I can't think at this point that Palm is doing itself any favors. There's a certain "sticking it to Apple" vote that likes the mess, but I would think most consumers don't want to worry if their sync is going to work after each update.

RE: When will you learn?
nastebu @ 10/5/2009 4:30:56 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
I also care because more and more nowadays, iTunes gets exclusive bonus songs and other material that you can't get elsewhere. (One of my favourite bands, for instance, has a couple of iTunes-exclusive tracks.) You should be able to purchase and sync this material freely from iTunes itself without having to be an iPod/iPhone owner, too. It's a matter of principle.

Tim, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Apple tracks were non-drm now? Can't you buy exclusive tracks through iTunes and just drag them out of iTunes onto your desktop, ready for use with any mp3 player?

RE: When will you learn?
jca666us @ 10/5/2009 4:50:16 AM # Q
You're correct nastebu - Apple music is non-drm yet he continues posting the same tired diatribe.

Video is drm'ed - if Tim really has an issue with that, he should start petitioning the movie studios...

RE: When will you learn?
jca666us @ 10/5/2009 5:08:22 AM # Q
>Oh, I see. So in that case, you'd also agree with the proposition that Apple
>should start charging $10 for every iPhone OS update, double the prices on
>music in the store and triple those on video?

Increasing store prices wouldn't be competitive with other music stores out there.

Charging for iphone OS updates goes against their established policy - they do however charge ipod touch users for OS updates.

Apple isn't circling the drain, Palm is. Selling their high-end webos phone for $99 isn't doing their investors any favors.

>Again with the IP protection argument?

It's Apple's IP - they have to defend it from unauthorized use.

The Pre is mis-identifying itself as an Apple Product in media sync mode.

Regardless of that, I question the strategy that ties critical product capabilities to the unsupported use of a competitor's software.

Talk about a boneheaded move my Palm.

>But why should that concern anybody who isn't an Apple shareholder?

Because Apple's business plan is to sell more ipod and iphone devices through the use of itunes. Palm is attempting to circumvent that.

>The end result for us end-users is the same: a more open ecosystem.
>Apple are not going to go bankrupt if the Pre syncs directly with iTunes.

Apple would lose money than it would gain by supporting the Pre.

>I also care because more and more nowadays, iTunes gets exclusive
>bonus songs and other material that you can't get elsewhere. (One of my
>favourite bands, for instance, has a couple of iTunes-exclusive tracks.) You
>should be able to purchase and sync this material freely from iTunes itself
>without having to be an iPod/iPhone owner, too. It's a matter of principle.

You can - it's this new concept called "drag and drop" - unless it's DRM'ed video, you should be fine.

>As for Hunter's latest missive, he misses the point entirely, which is that
>iTunes users shouldn't need to use PalmTunesSync or some other third-
>party package to sync their purchases.

That's BS - you need to because Apple says you need to - it's Apple's software - not Palm's.

Perhaps if Ruby called Apple and offered to license access to itunes, they might be more amenable. Instead, he's trying to strong arm them. Bad move Ruby!

>And 'support burden'? What a load of crap. Palm are doing all the legwork to
>enable the syncing. Apple have already let people know loud and clear that
>they're not going to support third-party devices (which, BTW, is not the
>same as "deliberate break compatibility with third-party devices"). There is
>no 'support burden' whatsoever. It's a straw man.

Neither you nor I know what Apple has planned for itunes in the next 6 mos, year, 2 years, etc.

Supporting Palm obviously does not fit into their plans.

Palm needs to support themselves. itunes xml data is there for them to use...Palm is shooting themselves in the foot.

RE: When will you learn?
abosco @ 10/5/2009 5:37:03 AM # M Q
You should be able to purchase and sync this material freely from iTunes itself without having to be an iPod/iPhone owner, too.

But you don't. Blackberry owners purchase songs on iTunes and import them into their phone using RIM's own simple software. They didn't hack anything, and they used the tools that Apple provided to get the music.

Your argument makes no sense. Remember when Palm went batshit over Styletap? That was an anti-consumer move. People who purchased years worth of Palm OS software now had nowhere to go but future Palm devices. Someone gave them a way out by porting it to Windows Mobile, and Palm's lawyers flipped. But Palm was right to order a cease & desist. Just because a decision is anti-consumer does not mean that it is wrong. Otherwise, all software would be open source or face criminal prosecution. That's the beauty of capitalism - you can make money off your own hard work.

RE: When will you learn?
Tim Carroll @ 10/5/2009 5:52:32 AM # Q
nastebu:
Apple invests intellectual capital in developing iTunes. Palm is trying to get a free ride on that.

Ridiculous! Are they also just trying to get a free ride on Google, Facebook, and LinkedIn with Synergy? Are they also just trying to get a free ride on Winamp, or Windows Media Player?

Of course they're not! Colligan came right out and said it at CES when webOS was announced. This is the 21st century. People keep their data everywhere, and Palm's plan is to let people aggregate that on their mobile device without hassle.

iTunes and its store are one of the most popular media services available. For Palm to ignore that would be insane. Direct iTunes syncing is clearly the simplest way for users of that software and customers of that store to manage their mobile media.

I'll say it again, even though by now I must sound like a broken record. Palm's move is ultimately pro-consumer. Apple's deliberate block is not. How on Earth anybody could support their move is beyond me.

Microsoft invested intellectual capital in building the Windows networking system. Open-source developers invested intellectual capital in creating Samba. Apple clearly have no problem getting a "free ride" on those other developers - as well they shouldn't, because technological interoperability is a good thing. If you take the stance that Apple are in the right here then you are essentially saying that you support arbitrary technological blocks in the pursuit of corporate profits.

FFS, it's wrong. It's as simple as that.

...correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Apple tracks were non-drm now? Can't you buy exclusive tracks through iTunes and just drag them out of iTunes onto your desktop, ready for use with any mp3 player?

You can, and indeed that's what I've done. Try explaining that to my Mum, or any other technological novice though. As far as those people know, iTunes is where those things live. "Drag-and-drop" means nothing to them. Palm knows this. That's why they've implemented direct syncing in the first place.

And again. It's the principle of the thing. There is no sound reason for Apple to block direct iTunes syncing other than their own self-interest. It's blatantly anti-consumer. It is offensive. It is wrong.

RE: When will you learn?
Tim Carroll @ 10/5/2009 5:59:47 AM # Q
bosco:
Remember when Palm went batshit over Styletap? That was an anti-consumer move.

Actually, I don't, 'cause I wasn't following the company at the time. But there's a difference between fighting something in the courts, and deliberately breaking your own software to screw over a competitor.

As has been pointed out ad nauseum, neither Apple nor Palm are breaking the law here. But one company is giving customers another choice, and one is actively blocking that choice. Pretty cut-and-dried, IMO.

RE: When will you learn?
nastebu @ 10/5/2009 6:08:13 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:

Microsoft invested intellectual capital in building the Windows networking system. Open-source developers invested intellectual capital in creating Samba. Apple clearly have no problem getting a "free ride" on those other developers - as well they shouldn't, because technological interoperability is a good thing. If you take the stance that Apple are in the right here then you are essentially saying that you support arbitrary technological blocks in the pursuit of corporate profits.

The thing is, to some extent patents and intellectual property are by their very nature arbitrary blocks on the use of that knowledge in the interest of corporate profits.

The extreme case is drug companies. It's clearly in everyone's interest for there to be no patents on drugs. People die because drugs are expensive. But we accept patents on medicine because without them drug companies wouldn't make the huge capital investments it takes to develop drug. iTunes is a far less important example of that. Apple develops the software to create profit--not for as a public service.

As for the example of Windows networking, in the case of Exchange anyway that technology is licensed, no? Certainly not all of Windows is open.


And again. It's the principle of the thing. There is no sound reason for Apple to block direct iTunes syncing other than their own self-interest. It's blatantly anti-consumer. It is offensive. It is wrong.

But this is commercial property. It's created to make profits. This isn't a question of morality It's the way the market works. Yes, iTunes is the way it is because it's in Apple's self-interest. Apple is a company which exists to make profits. They're playing by the rules we defined for them.

(the drug example is a matter of morality, and is clearly anti-consumer, but we still accept the limits because we value the market mechanism above all else. That is probably morally wrong in a way that the iTunes example is not, but it's the way we have collectively defined market economies, and so we live with it. If we want to change that, we need to rethink our values, not force drug companies to act against the rules we set for them.)

Consumers do not have a right to anything they want.

RE: When will you learn?
nastebu @ 10/5/2009 6:15:51 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
iTunes and its store are one of the most popular media services available. For Palm to ignore that would be insane. Direct iTunes syncing is clearly the simplest way for users of that software and customers of that store to manage their mobile media.

In the purely pragmatic sense, direct iTunes syncing isn't simple, is it? If Apple can break it anytime with an update, then it's not a very good way to go about giving consumers access to their music.

Tim, do you want Palm to score "morally righteous" points against Apple, or have a successful product? This strategy isn't going to work long-term, and for Palm's own good, they better have a plan B.

RE: When will you learn?
Tim Carroll @ 10/5/2009 7:10:54 AM # Q
nastebu:
The extreme case is drug companies. It's clearly in everyone's interest for there to be no patents on drugs. People die because drugs are expensive. But we accept patents on medicine because without them drug companies wouldn't make the huge capital investments it takes to develop drug.

You're right, that is an extreme case. I think it's hardly analagous - life-saving medicines and shopping & syncing freely at the iTunes store are on two entirely different planes of morality.

This has nothing to do with patents and IP anyway. If Palm were violating a patent or IP, then Apple would have a legal case against them. They don't, because there is actually nothing special or secret about the way iTunes communicates with iPods.

I respect a company's or an individuals right to make money off their own creations. But iTunes is given away for free. The store itself turns a profit, even if it is a small one by comparison to the margins on Apple's hardware. It's not like Apple don't make any money if they let the Pre sync.

And since Apple are using basic file transfer protocols to transfer data between computers and iPods, I see no grounds for them to complain about Palm using those same protocols to do exactly the same thing.

Using iTunes as a carrot to lure people to the iPod/iPhone is fine by me. But smacking those who choose not to take that step with a stick - by deliberately breaking interoperability - is not.

This strategy isn't going to work long-term, and for Palm's own good, they better have a plan B.

Actually, that's still an open question at this point. Right now it's just a race to the bottom - Apple simply keep moving one level lower on the USB ID chain everytime they reblock the Pre, because anything more extreme would possibly require them to break compatibility with older iPods. It remains to be seen whether or not they're willing to take the step of issuing firmware updates to their entire product line just to lock out Palm.

RE: When will you learn?
nastebu @ 10/5/2009 10:18:19 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:

You're right, that is an extreme case. I think it's hardly analagous - life-saving medicines and shopping & syncing freely at the iTunes store are on two entirely different planes of morality.

Of course. My point was that when Apple throws up "arbitrary technological blocks in the pursuit of corporate profits" they're doing something that every company does, and that we accept as a matter of course. We accept a company's right to throw up "arbitrary technological blocks in the pursuit of corporate profits" even when it costs people's lives--as in the case of drug companies. So I don't think there's much room for moral outrage at Apple doing it with iTunes syncing.



I respect a company's or an individuals right to make money off their own creations. But iTunes is given away for free. The store itself turns a profit, even if it is a small one by comparison to the margins on Apple's hardware. It's not like Apple don't make any money if they let the Pre sync.

but even though they give iTunes away for free, it's still "their own creation" to make money with. So again, blocking sync is perfectly in bounds. It's not for us to tell Apple how not to make money.

Look, Palm is exploiting a loophole. That's funny, and kind of cool. But it's not morally right. I'm not really objecting to Palm's actions, I'm objecting to portraying them as some sort of pro-consumer revolt. That part just doesn't hold up. Palm is playing technological hardball, not standing up for the little guy.

RE: When will you learn?
nastebu @ 10/5/2009 10:20:12 AM # Q
oh, why can't we edit posts? Obviously, the "I respect" paragraph is quoting Tim. I'm not trying to steal his intellectual property.
RE: When will you learn?
pmjoe @ 10/5/2009 11:00:10 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
Further reading, and more eloquently stated than I've previously put it:

http://www.slate.com/id/2229856/


What's more, the iTunes block is hypocritical. Like every other tech company, Apple has benefited enormously from the spirit of interconnectedness that pervades the tech industry. The iPod would have fizzled if Microsoft had blocked it from hooking up to Windows PCs. Or look at the iPhone—Apple is proud that it can sync with Outlook, Microsoft Exchange, Gmail, Yahoo, and just about everything else. Indeed, you could argue that Apple, once left for dead on the periphery of the tech industry, managed to come back only because it skillfully marketed Macs as the most promiscuous computers you could buy. Around the turn of the century, Jobs began touting the Mac as a "digital hub" for your home. You know what he meant? That the Mac would hook up with anything. Clearly, the pitch worked: Apple still sells Macs by pointing to the ability to connect to Windows networks and their easy compatibility with third-party printers, cameras, and other devices. The latest version of the Mac OS can even automatically sync with Microsoft Exchange—something not even Windows does.


Good find. I've posted similar comments elsewhere. If the USB peripheral companies had decided to play Apple's game a decade ago, Apple probably would've been a dead company not very long afterwards.

The whole point to USB was interoperability, being able to recognize devices on connect, introducing the concept of device classes, being able to reuse drivers, etc. It is amusing to see the company which probably, by far, benefited the most from USB being a very open spec trying to be the one that closes it.

RE: When will you learn?
pmjoe @ 10/5/2009 11:45:16 AM # Q
nastebu wrote:
but even though they give iTunes away for free, it's still "their own creation" to make money with. So again, blocking sync is perfectly in bounds. It's not for us to tell Apple how not to make money.

Look, Palm is exploiting a loophole. That's funny, and kind of cool. But it's not morally right. I'm not really objecting to Palm's actions, I'm objecting to portraying them as some sort of pro-consumer revolt. That part just doesn't hold up. Palm is playing technological hardball, not standing up for the little guy.


15-20 years ago, if a company was able to get incompatible software/hardware like this to interoperate, it was considered innovative.

Today, it is apparently "innovative" to break interoperability even when standards are in place to make it easier to interoperate. Look, Palm is not "exploiting a loophole". They are using "open" standards that were put in place years ago. You could just as easily state that Apple is "exploiting a loophole" to block otherwise compatible devices with vendor/manufacturer ids, or that Apple "exploited a loophole" in using open standards to try to create a closed protocol.

Certainly what Palm is doing is pro-consumer. It's also, unsurprisingly, pro other devices that want to compete in the iTunes space. Even though those of us around the Palm/mobile space know that Palm is weaker than its former self, the Palm name still has a strong position in the mobile market. They are certainly in a good position help people recognize that Apple is intentionally blocking non-Apple devices from interoperating with iTunes. I have no problem with Palm using their weight to get industry and consumer recognition of this.

I understand Apple's position, and they can certainly do whatever they want with their software/hardware. But I do not have to approve of nor agree with it. Maybe Apple and Microsoft should collude with memory stick/card manufacturers to only produce USB memory that works with Windows 7 and Snow Leopard. Then everyone would be forced to upgrade their systems/OS, as old flash cards/sticks wear out. How would you feel about that?

I certainly would not go around casting "morally righteous" judgement. Palm is the one promoting interoperability, and Apple is the one on the slippery slope of destroying it. What's the next USB device you'd like to see Apple/Microsoft intentionally block from their platforms?

RE: When will you learn?
bhartman34 @ 10/5/2009 3:16:00 PM # Q
It's actually worse than is stated in the Slate article, Tim.

The author mistakenly says that what Palm is doing is "illegal". Whatever you may think of the ethics of the situation (and I'll admit that the ethics of it are somewhat open to interpretation, as ethics always are), what Palm is doing with the VID isn't "illegal" in any sense of the word. Violating the USB-IF spec (which is apparently how the USB-IF has chosen to view Palm's actions) isn't illegal. It's probably not even actionable. The VID isn't a trade secret, and Apple gives iTunes away. The only reasonably sane argument Apple could make is that the hack allows the Pre to hook into iTunes, which indirectly takes sales away from Apple for its hardware. But that's a pretty weak argument, IMO. OpenOffice's ability to read Word files allows people to read them w/o owning Microsoft Word, but you don't see Microsoft suing Sun. In theory, there's lots of software out there that can allow you to sync non-DRM'ed content you bought on iTunes to your non-iPod/iPhone device. None of them seem to be in any legal jeopardy.

Here's the thing about this hack:

1) It doesn't involve modifying Apple's code in any way.
2) It uses information that's available to anyone with a USB cable and a computer.
3) The Media Sync software that the Pre uses (i.e., what happens inside the Pre when it goes into Media Sync mode) was written by Palm.
4) Palm doesn't "use" iTunes for anything. It's the user that uses iTunes. Palm's Media Sync doesn't launch iTunes. All it does is allow iTunes to see the Pre. Thus, Palm isn't hijacking iTunes to do anything.

Given all of that, it's hard to imagine there are any IP issues at stake here for Apple. Clearly, there's money at stake for them, but you can't sue someone just because they're costing you money. They have to be in violation of some law or regulation. Palm isn't. All they've violated is a USB-IF rule, which doesn't have any legal weight, in terms of Apple's interests.

Now, the USB-IF's interests might be another story. They might be able to show that Palm is in breach of contract, and get damages awarded to them that way. After all, companies pay for the IDs that they're issued (with the exception of some generic ones).

But if the USB-IF hasn't done it yet, I don't see a reason to think they will. It's not like this is a new story.

Reply to this comment

Big Trouble for Pre?

Gekko @ 10/4/2009 5:42:24 AM # Q

Big Moss really likes the new HTC Hero for Sprint (Google Android) -

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574445242522308908.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_tech


RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 10/4/2009 6:25:17 AM # Q
Having played with a Hero three times now, all I can say is I don't know if I can hold out much longer for that >3.5 inch screen I desperately want. The Hero is an amazing device. HTC has managed to create an awesome front end with the Sense UI for what is already a very nice OS, and the ROM modders are making it all even better. Fortunately, the "original" version with the chin is what's selling here. Having worked with it, I prefer that one.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 10/4/2009 6:39:25 AM # Q

Leakdroid - Sprint HTC Hero Review

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD624rjftRQ


RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 10/4/2009 6:58:50 AM # Q

HTC Hero for Sprint - mobileburn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI9mXWvV3hM

- microSD card - check
- Docs to Go - check
- removable 1500 milliamp battery - check
- MS Exchange Support - check
- True GMail PUSH - check
- True Multitasking - check

what else am i missing? what else do you want?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 10/4/2009 7:02:55 AM # Q

- Visual Voicemail - check

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Ryan @ 10/4/2009 7:49:45 AM # M Q
Gonna take more than a bunch of oversized widgets and virtual keyboard to move anyone off a Pre.
RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 10/4/2009 7:56:44 AM # Q
Gekko wrote:
what else am I missing?

It even has multi-touch. (I don't know what's going on with Apple's supposed patents on the technology, but Palm and now HTC seem to be ignoring them.)

what else do you want?

Only a 3.5" or larger screen. Honestly, that's about all I'm not happy with. The device is sweet! But old eyes and large thumbs mean I want lots of screen size.

Incidentally, in preparation of my "inevitable" move to a touchscreen (i.e. no stylus) device with onscreen keyboard, I've been forcing myself to use the Thumbboard app on my TX when I can. I'm getting pretty good with it, even without any auto-correct technology. But it does prove to me the value of a large screen on these phones. The only downside I can see is a larger screen will take more battery power. But once the screen is larger, there should be enough room for a larger battery. Ah, decisions, decisions........

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
DarthRepublican @ 10/4/2009 11:47:46 AM # Q
Gekko wrote:

HTC Hero for Sprint - mobileburn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI9mXWvV3hM

- microSD card - check
- Docs to Go - check
- removable 1500 milliamp battery - check
- MS Exchange Support - check
- True GMail PUSH - check
- True Multitasking - check

what else am i missing? what else do you want?

So are you going to give up your Centro for this phone?
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
hkklife @ 10/4/2009 5:09:25 PM # Q
I am seriously, seriously, seriously considering picking up the Motorola Sholes/Droid for VZW if it appears before the end of the year.

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/10/01/motorola-droid-will-be-verizons-android-handset-from-motorola/

No Verizon UI, wi-fi, 3.5mm jack, 8gb microSD card included, and a lovely 3.7" 854x480 screen + (hopefully) the usual Motorola reception & voice quality looks like the best CDMA choice out there right now.

If not, I always can buy another 755p or Centro cheap. Or even give a Pre a shot if it ever comes to Verizon next year.


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
LiveFaith @ 10/4/2009 8:09:29 PM # Q
Wow Khris. If you jump, Palm will just close up shop. :-)

I'm watching the Euro HTC Leo developments. It's my dream come true as far as screen real estate and a tiny bezel. WM7 should be available for upgrade and may be decent. At least the OS is robust, just not flashy like the three newbies.

I'm afraid that Palm is committed to the pop-culture market and going head to head with iPhone in that arena. Not a place I'm interested in going frankly. The next couple of months will tell.
Pat Horne

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 10/6/2009 7:11:44 PM # Q
OT: Dell Plans First Smartphone with AT&T: Report
Gekko @ 10/7/2009 2:10:03 PM # Q

Dell Plans First Smartphone with AT&T: Report
Published: Wednesday, 7 Oct 2009 | 4:47 PM ET
By: Reuters

Dell plans to launch a smartphone with Google's Android mobile software on carrier AT&T's network as soon as in early 2010, the Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/33213440

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 10/9/2009 7:22:22 AM # Q
(Yeah, it's an old thread, but since this one's kinda off topic already......)

FWIW: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9139026/Android_to_grab_No._2_spot_by_2012_says_Gartner

Spoiler warning!
(Palm ends up pretty low, but at least they're still around.)

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
SeldomVisitor @ 10/9/2009 7:31:52 AM # Q
Gartner's word are a joke. That "report" was shown to be the crock it is:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/165473-how-big-will-android-get

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 10/9/2009 7:41:21 AM # Q
Sure, and that's why it's "FWIW".

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
abosco @ 10/9/2009 8:06:53 AM # M Q
Hey Gekko, remember the time you thought Dell was going to rise to number one in the PDA business, I kept disagreeing and their direct-to-customer business model wouldn't work?

And then remember the time Dell exited the handheld business because they couldn't make any money? Why is this any different? They're making all the same mistakes. Bland hardware, same OS as HTC junk, and nothing compelling.

Android is the new Windows Mobile. It'll be on everything, but used by few.

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 10/9/2009 8:33:15 AM # Q

i remember. but PDAs hit an inflection point and died which changed the game for everyone. who knows how things would have worked out had they entered earlier.

we shall see what happens in the smartphone space. no question that Apple is kicking a$$ and taking names.

---------

The latest smart-phone numbers from Canalys show that Apple's gaining share like a bat out of hell.

The company has gone from 2% global share to 14% share in a year.

RIM's creeping higher worldwide--now 20%--but it's losing share in the US. Nokia's still dominant worldwide, but it's slipping (44%). Everyone else is getting crushed.

In the US, the market breaks down basically as follows:

Research In Motion: 52% (down from 56% last year)
Apple: 23% (up from 7%)
Google: 2%
Everyone Else: 23%

Again, Apple's gaining share astonishingly fast...from 7% to 23% in a year. Imagine what will happen when the company cuts loose from AT&T.

Google has now finally signed a bunch of hardware partners (all of whom will be rendered irrelevant if the Android platform takes hold), so it might begin to gain share.

http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-smart-phone-market-update-apples-eating-everyone-elses-lunch-2009-10

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
abosco @ 10/9/2009 12:31:20 PM # M Q
Wow, I didn't expect that. RIM's US share went down?? Even though Verizon offers buy-one-get-one on any Blackberry? I must admit, when I saw the 3G-S, I didn't think it was worth much more than a regular iPhone 3G, and I didn't expect it to take off. But I must say, I see the damn things everywhere. And when I used one myself, I was dumbfounded by how slow mine felt afterwards.

I think the next iPhone will be announced as available on AT&T and Verizon to thunderous applause. Marketshare will probably be very even between Apple and RIM. And I fully expect Android to hit 10% within a year or two at the expense of Windows Mobile. But I just don't see Palm in the equation here. How can you survive on 2% marketshare, slim margins, and no other way of making money?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Tim Carroll @ 10/9/2009 3:59:52 PM # Q
Wow, I didn't expect that. RIM's US share went down?? Even though Verizon offers buy-one-get-one on any Blackberry?

That offer smacked of desperation to me. You don't pull that kinda stunt unless things are really going wrong, IMO.

As for Palm: don't write 'em off till they're on Verizon and they've launched internationally. If the Pre / Pixi one-two punch and multiple carriers still hasn't managed to net them a bigger overall share, then it'll be time to start hitting the panic button...

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
nastebu @ 10/9/2009 7:00:07 PM # Q
There was another article reported on MacRumors that said the iPhone was up to 40% of worldwide "ad request share" for smartphones. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that to reflect how much the phone is being used to browse the internet rather than simple market share.)

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=795709

The Pre is on there too. It went from 0% to 4% in six months. That's really pretty excellent, and is a great pace. It lags behind Android, but it shows that the Pre has very quickly become a presence. And that's with no app store to speak of, and very limited availability.


RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 10/9/2009 7:03:50 PM # Q

i live and travel in major metro areas and i have yet to see even one Pre in the wild.

don't blame Sprint - i see a lot of Sprint phones.

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
SeldomVisitor @ 10/10/2009 3:34:18 AM # Q
Nah, those "ad request" "surveys" are hits on sites that ONE ad company has ads on (Admob)

Since certain devices are better at surfing =normal= sites, its users tend to hit THOSE sites, not the ad-enhanced-mobile sites, skewing results from the mobile sites "survey" toward devices that are "better" on the mobile sites.

And, of course, the sites that count literally are only the sites that the ad company has ads on, again skewing the results to that TYPE of surfer - whatever type that is other than "general".


RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 10/10/2009 11:31:28 AM # Q

Report: Android will leapfrog the iPhone by 2012

Thu Oct 8, 2009 10:02AM EDT

Watch out, iPhone—Android's nipping at your heels.
Researchers at Gartner (via AppleInsider) are predicting that the global market share for Google's Android mobile OS could overtake the iPhone's in a little over two years, with Android poised to leapfrog Apple into the No. 2 spot.

That would leave the iPhone in the No. 3 position—right where it is now, behind BlackBerry and Nokia's Symbian OS, according to Gartner. The industry researchers believe that by 2012, Research in Motion (the company behind the BlackBerry) will have lost 7 percent of its market share, causing it to slip into fifth place (behind even Windows Mobile). Android, meanwhile, will get a 12.9-percent boost to become the No. 2 smartphone platform in the world, with Symbian still safe in the No. 1 spot (with a dominating, although dwindling, 39 percent of the global market).

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/57664


RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
abosco @ 10/10/2009 12:45:13 PM # Q
Android will grow, but not by that much. Android devices will evolve exactly into what Windows Mobile devices have become. They'll come in every shape, size, form-factor, and price. As such, they'll have a loyal following of power-users who claim that it's better than everything else out there. It'll have good performance and a good selection of applications, but the lack of differentiation from everything else out there will be a detriment. At best, they'll hit 10% U.S. marketshare in the next few years.

These analysts are so predictable. They see a bunch of licensees and carriers and think it's going to explode regardless of end-user input. Do they not realize Microsoft has had the same strategy and it hasn't been a smash hit? Meanwhile, Apple comes in as one company with one device on one carrier in the U.S. and starts killing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 10/10/2009 7:03:01 PM # Q

"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." - George Orwell

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 10/10/2009 7:09:47 PM # Q
Gekko, that Gartner report is what some of us were already talking about earlier in this thread. And we all know that abosco is much better than Gartner at predicting these things anyway. Why not just ask him and save ourselves the time of reading what the other "analysts" are saying? Just as Palm could not fall, so Apple can not either. ;-)

OTOH, I don't think the iPhone will "fall", I just think there is a very good chance that Android based smartphones will surpass iPhones in marketshare eventually. And I haven't been following what's happening with Maemo or Symbian or any of the other OS's, so I'm just guessing too. But as I've said before each time we've "discussed" this, no one knows for sure, so we'll all just have to wait and see.

The more I see how Google and the rest of the OHA partners are playing this out, the more "smart" the whole thing becomes. I'm a little more worried about what it means for the end user and their ability to "control" their own phone, but if I'm understanding the strategy correctly, it works out very nicely for Google and the phone manufacturers. I do hope that the opensource development community is able to create good alternatives for all of the proprietary pieces in the system as it stands now. But at least there is an opportunity to do so because of the openess of the core Android OS. For the average end user, it's a non-issue. They'll use their phone as-is and be none the wiser about whether or not they can root their phone or flash it with a modified ROM.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

A Chink In Android's Armor
freakout @ 10/11/2009 2:44:41 AM # Q
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/11/a-chink-in-androids-armor/

New Android devices are being announced and shipped in bunches. HTC, Samsung, Dell, Verizon and others have phones on the way. Each has different hardware, and different software, than the others.

We've spoken with a number of high profile Android application developers. All of them, without exception, have told me they are extremely frustrated with Android right now. For the iPhone, they build once and maintain the code base. On Android, they built once for v.1.5, but are getting far less installs than the iPhone.

And now they're faced with a landslide of new handsets, some running v.1.6 and some courageous souls even running android v.2.0. All those manufacturers/carriers are racing to release their phones by the 2009 holiday season, and want to ensure the hot applications will work on their phones. And here's the problem – in almost every case, we hear, there are bugs and more serious problems with the apps.

There are whispers of backwards and forwards compatibility issues as well, making the problem even worse.

More than one developer has told us that this isn't just a matter of debugging their existing application to ensure that it works on the various handsets. They say they're going to have to build and maintain separate code for various Android devices. Some devices seem to have left out key libraries that are forcing significant recoding efforts, for example. With others, it's more of a mystery.

My main issue with Android? I hate the UI. IMO, it stinks. (Also, why do so many use the freaking ugly analog clock widget as the default screenshot?)

And for all the hardware options, there's not one device with a portrait QWERTY yet, my preferred form factor.

I'm with Bosco on this one. Android is the new Windows Mobile. Bleh!

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 10/11/2009 7:17:52 AM # Q
freakout wrote:
My main issue with Android? I hate the UI. IMO, it stinks. (Also, why do so many use the freaking ugly analog clock widget as the default screenshot?)

That's your "main issue"?! Hmm, must not have seen the Sense UI yet. I think you need to get out a little more Tim. ;-) Or maybe you just have already fallen in love with the webOS UI and nothing compares? Ok, that's fine. Everyone has their own preference. Some people even think there's nothing better than the iPhone UI. YMMV.

And for all the hardware options, there's not one device with a portrait QWERTY yet, my preferred form factor.

I have little doubt there will be. If a portrait QWERTY device is marketable, someone will do it. The OS can handle it, and there isn't just one CEO who gets to decide what everyone will and will not use. So I suspect someone will make one.

I'm with Bosco on this one. Android is the new Windows Mobile. Bleh!

In the sense that Bosco has suggested, it is of course possible that will happen. (Personally I think there are significant differences between WinMob and Android that will lead to different results, but I could be wrong about that.) But if you are saying you don't like the looks of the "standard build", now that's just being silly. There are alternatives and there will be more.

No doubt, there are some significant hurdles for the Android/OHA people to work out. And if you want only one way of doing everything, then yes, Android is probably not the system for you. You'll be much happier with Apple or even Palm.

There's always a price for freedom.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 10/11/2009 7:41:33 AM # Q
And now that I went and read the whole article you linked to, I'm chuckling to myself. Here's my summary:
First a catchy title, then a few alarmist paragraphs to describe the disaster that awaits Android and anyone who might choose to develop for it, finishing off with the "but wait, maybe this whole thing is being blown out of proportion" disclaimer for the last few paragraphs. At least they were honest enough to conclude that maybe it will and maybe it won't be an issue.

Incidentally, I enjoyed this comment about the article:

Don Synstelien (@synstelien) - October 11th, 2009 at 5:44 am CDT

It boils down to a choice.

Developers can have freedom (Android) or prosperity (iPhone)

If you want both, go back to developing for the computer. If you want neither, I guess there is the Pre. ;-)


At least someone's got a sense of humor.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Tim Carroll @ 10/11/2009 12:40:03 PM # Q
That's your "main issue"?! Hmm, must not have seen the Sense UI yet. I think you need to get out a little more Tim. ;-) Or maybe you just have already fallen in love with the webOS UI and nothing compares?

Getting out more is always something I could do better... ;) But seriously. I've seen Sense, and while it's pretty I get the sense (no pun intended) that it was designed more with sexiness in mind than actual functionality. From screenshots (no emulator to play with that I know of...) it feels slightly inconsistent. Then, of course, there's the complaints that it lags and feels slow...

As for the webOS UI - since it's essentially Palm OS transplanted into the post-iPhone era, I was already in love with it when it came out. ;)

Developers can have freedom (Android) or prosperity (iPhone)

If you want both, go back to developing for the computer. If you want neither, I guess there is the Pre. ;-)

Heh. I know that dude was joking... but I still can't resist taking the bait. Palm's new plans for no-review distribution options will give devs pretty much all the freedom they want. As for prosperity... guess we'll have to wait and see how sales go. But nowadays prosperity is hardly guaranteed anywhere, least of all the extraordinarily crowded iPhone:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/216788

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 10/11/2009 7:40:54 PM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
I've seen Sense, and while it's pretty I get the sense (no pun intended) that it was designed more with sexiness in mind than actual functionality. From screenshots (no emulator to play with that I know of...) it feels slightly inconsistent. Then, of course, there's the complaints that it lags and feels slow...

You know, I read the same things about it being slow and laggy. But I also read that the update took care of that. Fortunately for me, I was able to use one here and see for myself. The only thing that felt slow to me was the screen rotation, the time it took for the screen to rotate after I rotated the device. Of course I haven't seen screen rotation in person on other devices, so maybe it's no different. But if the iPhone adverts are representative of reality (yeah, yeah, I know, I know), seems that device is really snappy at screen rotation. Otherwise, the response seemed very quick with nothing I could see people are labeling "lag" present. And of course if you load the whole thing up with a gazillion apps, I suspect it will slow down. But that seems obvious, and the only fair comparison for that is some other multi-tasking system like webOS (not the iPhone of course).

I suspect there is a way to load the Hero ROM into an emulator (I do have the SDK, so I've played with the standard build in an emulator). But it wouldn 't give us any clue as to how the whole thing responds on an actual device anyway. And for all I know, the US Hero ROM is different from the Chinese Hero ROM I played with. All I can speak to is my experience of the phone they offer here. And it was sweet.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
jca666us @ 10/11/2009 9:52:39 PM # Q
>As for the webOS UI - since it's essentially Palm OS transplanted into the
>post-iPhone era, I was already in love with it when it came out. ;)

Thank you - this was the funniest thing I've read all day.

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 8/14/2010 7:19:10 PM # Q
abosco wrote:
Android will grow, but not by that much. Android devices will evolve exactly into what Windows Mobile devices have become. They'll come in every shape, size, form-factor, and price. As such, they'll have a loyal following of power-users who claim that it's better than everything else out there. It'll have good performance and a good selection of applications, but the lack of differentiation from everything else out there will be a detriment. At best, they'll hit 10% U.S. marketshare in the next few years.

twrock wrote:
... I don't think the iPhone will "fall", I just think there is a very good chance that Android based smartphones will surpass iPhones in marketshare eventually. And I haven't been following what's happening with Maemo or Symbian or any of the other OS's, so I'm just guessing too. But as I've said before each time we've "discussed" this, no one knows for sure, so we'll all just have to wait and see.

... we all know that abosco is much better than Gartner at predicting these things anyway. Why not just ask him and save ourselves the time of reading what the other "analysts" are saying? Just as Palm could not fall, so Apple can not either. ;-)

So, what did "wait and see" yield as a result?

From Gartner's latest report (http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1421013):

In the smartphone operating system (OS) market, Android expanded rapidly in the second quarter of 2010, overtaking Apple's iPhone OS to become the third-most-popular OS in the world (see Table 2). In the U.S, it also overtook RIM's OS to become the No. 1 smartphone OS in this region. "A non-exclusive strategy that produces products selling across many communication service providers (CSPs), and the backing of so many device manufacturers, which are bringing more attractive devices to market at several different price points, were among the factors that yielded its growth this quarter," said Ms. Milanesi.

Hmm, look at that. How'd that happen? ;-)

And yes, I'm loving my CHT8000 (Pulse) running Android 2.1 FLB 1.2 mod, thank you very much.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
hkklife @ 8/16/2010 10:27:56 AM # M Q
Ron, as a fellow Graffiti die-hard, I am curious to hear our thoughts on Graffii for Android. Also, how is your Garner to Android migration going?

Did you see my Droid X mini-review post last week? I am lovin' that screen and oodles of onboard+ removable storage.i

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
mikecane @ 8/16/2010 2:06:03 PM # Q
>>>i live and travel in major metro areas and i have yet to see even one Pre in the wild.

Bah! Not NYC. Where I have seen ONE Pre in the wild. Just one, but still.

And twrock, the Pre *is* sluggish in rotation. Very unlike the iPhone (I've yet to experience the iPhone 4, which is faster).

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 8/16/2010 2:17:16 PM # Q

yes but i ain't looking for Pres. here's a pic from last weekend.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/9f486e2871ef44547607348fda138b5f6g.jpg

recognize the rooftop pool?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 8/17/2010 1:38:45 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
Ron, as a fellow Graffiti die-hard, I am curious to hear our thoughts on Graffii for Android. Also, how is your Garner to Android migration going?

Did you see my Droid X mini-review post last week? I am lovin' that screen and oodles of onboard+ removable storage.i

I did finally get to install it. What a PITA that process was! But now that I'm running a custom 2.1 ROM that lies and says I have a Pulse, things are much happier. :-)

I think it works great. No real problems or issue for the short time I tried it out. But, (and it's a BIG but.....) there is no way graffiti can compete with Swype for ease of use and speed of input. So, I won't using it much, as long as I have Swype.

I haven't been hanging around PIC at all, so I missed that review. I came back around again simply because I saw that Gartner report and couldn't resist the opportunity to say "hi" to all the Apple fanboys who I miss so dearly, especially the Grand Pronosticator Abosco. ;-)

But if money was no issue, I'd definitely be picking up one of the high end Android devices. Buying my CHT8000 (Pulse) was an experiment, and I have been happy with the result, especially now that I'm running a hacked ROM that puts the stock ROM to shame. So the next time around, my phone will have a big processor, big memory, and HUGE screen.

In many cases I found the same or equivalent software for my phone that I had come to rely on on my TX. And all the extras have been very fun too. The big exception still is Datebk. I will readily admit that the Android Calendar API sucks. But some of the add-ons make it at least usable.

Although I have no love for Apple and their obnoxious fanboys, I still have that soft spot in my heart for Palm. But obviously they aren't the same old company they were. If somehow HP can keep Palm hanging in there, more power to them. But that really doesn't matter to me anymore like it once did.

Enjoy!

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 8/17/2010 4:31:08 AM # Q
RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
mikecane @ 8/17/2010 5:54:50 AM # Q
>>>recognize the rooftop pool?

No. But I want to go there. Foxen!

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 8/18/2010 6:40:52 AM # Q
Gekko wrote:

http://www.jorte.net/english/jorte.html

Last time I looked at Jorte, it was still hobbled with the same lame set of predefined reminder times that the stock calendar has. Has that changed? That's one of my main beefs with the Android calendar ui/api. It needs to have the same flexibility as their web calendar program.

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
Gekko @ 8/18/2010 6:45:05 AM # Q

you're not that busy or important.

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
twrock @ 8/20/2010 12:41:10 AM # Q
Gekko wrote:

you're not that busy or important.

In your mind Gekko, you're the only one who is. ;-)

RE: Big Trouble for Pre?
richf @ 8/20/2010 1:22:01 PM # Q
Right now the big trouble for my Pre is that the Droid updated to 2.2 yesterday and it is twice as fast. Backed up by Linpack figures and perceived operation. Grafitti is not making the Pre's life any easier either. I'm using both at this time trying to make a decision and imho perceived operation is maybe more important than figures.
Have a nice day!
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->Pilot Pro->IIIe->IIIc->M500->M505->M515->TC->T3->T5->Treo 650P->Treo 700P->Droid>Pre Plus
Reply to this comment

OT: Split attention

Gekko @ 10/4/2009 1:54:20 PM # Q

i think some of you will enjoy this - and can relate -

Split attention
Last Updated: 4:06 AM, October 4, 2009
Posted: 1:26 AM, October 4, 2009

Google co-founder Larry Page is either rude or "wildly self-possessed," according to Barry Diller. When the IAC chief visited Google headquarters a few years ago, "Diller was disconcerted that Page, even as they talked, stared fixedly at the screen of his PDA [personal digital assistant]," Ken Auletta writes in "Googled: The End of the World as We Know It," excerpted in The New Yorker this week. Auletta relates: "[Diller] said to Larry, 'Is this boring?' 'No. I'm interested. I always do this,' Page said. 'Well, you can't do this.' Diller said. 'Choose.' 'I'll do this,' Page said matter-of-factly, not lifting his eyes from his hand-held device. 'So I talked to [Google co-founder] Sergey [Brin],' Diller said."

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/split_attention_APBNM4XIAPyFAed0W3bjTL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Diller

RE: OT: Split attention
Gekko @ 10/4/2009 1:58:07 PM # Q
RE: OT: Split attention
twrock @ 10/10/2009 10:36:17 PM # Q
(Yeah, I know this is old stuff, but I'm just catching up after being gone for a while.)

Sounds like a couple of jerks to me, not just one. Page: obsessed with his little toy to the point of rudeness. Diller: "Well, you can't do this. Choose." (Who appointed Diller to be the jello sheriff of the house?)

Just a couple of "alpha male" corporate types having a pissing contest.


Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

Reply to this comment

That Screenshot Looks Suspicious...

Libb @ 10/5/2009 6:19:43 AM # Q
Did anyone else notice that the attached screenshot on this article is shorter than a normal Pre screen? In fact, it oddly matches the aspect ratio of a Pixi...

I think somebody's got a review unit... ;)

RE: That Screenshot Looks Suspicious...
Libb @ 10/5/2009 6:20:38 AM # Q
Except now I look at it and there's a WiFi signal, which the Pixi doesn't have.

Now I'm just confused.

RE: That Screenshot Looks Suspicious...
Ryan @ 10/5/2009 8:20:20 AM # M Q
Sry for the confusion there, I just trimmed it to fit better on the homepage. Don't have a pixi yet ;-)
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