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Comments on: Asia-Pacific Pre Will Be Second-Generation, Mid-to-Late 2010

asia pacific map By now, Asia-Pacific Palm fans will have heard the sad news that we won't be receiving the Palm Pre anytime soon, as confirmed by intrepid investigator Jason Lingohr and reported by PreCentral yesterday. PalmInfocenter has been looking into this issue for some time now, and with this new information at hand did some digging of our own into the sorry state of affairs. The picture we have pieced together from multiple sources is essentially what Jason has already discovered, but with a new twist.

Palm's overarching strategy with the first generation of webOS devices is indeed to focus tightly on the North American and European markets. It's purely a matter of survival: the company does not want to spread itself too thinly at such a critcial juncture in its history. Thus, much like Apple's original iPhone, only a select group of countries will be receiving the first-generation webOS flagship, the Pre; indeed, we may have already seen the extent of Palm's initial international rollout with the US, Canada, Spain, the UK, Germany and Ireland (although there's still that Mexican Pre to consider, too...). Apparently, all the Australian carriers were informed of this decision several months ago - putting paid to recent rumours of a launch on Vodafone AU in November.

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Tight Focus...

surfmaniac @ 10/23/2009 11:59:21 AM # Q
Sounds like a good strategy to me for a company of this size. Eventually these WebOS phones will be global, it'll just take time.


MS

RE: Tight Focus...
SeldomVisitor @ 10/23/2009 12:01:49 PM # Q
> ...it'll just take time.

Yes, the one thing Palm has plenty of, huh?

Hmmm...come to think of it, now that an official source has said a better Pre is coming out, who's gonna buy the existing Pre?

Hmmm...

Maybe Palm doesn't that much time left, huh?

RE: Tight Focus...
hkklife @ 10/23/2009 2:01:57 PM # Q
"Better Pre" likely means a 16GB model with a better quality slider. Palm are notorious for milking certain formfactors to death (T|T3, T|E, Treo 600 etc) with just incremental upgrades. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

What Palm should be much more worried about is trying to distinguish between the Pre and the Pixi and/or release a high-end device (perhaps resurrecting the "Treo" moniker). The Pre's specs are starting to look horribly feeble next to the new competition (HTC Imagio, Motorola Droid et al).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Tight Focus...
bhartman34 @ 10/23/2009 6:42:37 PM # Q
I think more built-in memory is more likely than a micro-SD slot. To put a slot in, they would have to redesign the phone, to a certain extent.

As far as being jealous of the Pre II (or whatever it will be called), sure, that's a problem. But that's the game when you're dealing with electronics: You always know a better device is just around the corner. I'll be perfectly happy when the rumored update comes to eliminate (or at least greatly increase) the app limit restriction. More memory isn't really an issue when you can't utilize all the memory that's there in the first place.

RE: Tight Focus...
twrock @ 10/23/2009 6:52:42 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
"Better Pre" likely means a 16GB model with a better quality slider. Palm are notorious for milking certain formfactors to death (T|T3, T|E, Treo 600 etc) with just incremental upgrades. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I had the same thought. But then, I remembered that this really is not the same Palm company we had grown to "love/hate/put up with/insert your own descriptor here". They might actually do things differently. But then I thought about Apple and the similarities with Palm's current management and wondered if they might do what Apple has with the iPhone (very much incremental upgrades). And finally I thought about them simply not having the resources to do anything more than the bare minimum, even if they really wanted to do much more. I dunno.

But what I do know is that the "pre-Pre" management managed to lay Palm on it's deathbed. [See how I did that there. :-) ] The current management has been dealt a very poor hand. If they somehow "resurrect" Palm, they deserve a lot of credit.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Tight Focus...
surfmaniac @ 10/23/2009 7:27:59 PM # Q
They are resurrecting PALM. If Rubenstein and co were not there, this company would now be nothing but a memory...

RE: Tight Focus...
hkklife @ 10/23/2009 10:17:24 PM # Q
BGR ain't too optimistic on Palm's chances on Verizon (from his new Moto Droid preview):

"So will the Motorola Droid be successful? Absolutely, we think. It will eat in to BlackBerry sales, Windows Mobile sales, and positively murder any lingering Palm Pre sales. It's that good. Did you notice how Verizon still hasn't announced the BlackBerry Storm2?"

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/10/23/motorola-droid-preview/

This may VERY likely be my next phone, folks. But not until I give it a fondling thorough enough to put Mike Cane to shame.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Tight Focus...
twrock @ 10/24/2009 12:08:44 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
This may VERY likely be my next phone, folks.

Spec wise, it's an awesome looking machine. (I don't think it will win any beauty awards, but some of us don't much care about that.) Yeah, if I was in the US on November 6, I'd be seriously fondling this thing too. Not that I'm big on the physical keyboard, but all else being equal, hey, why not have a keyboard? Doesn't look like it has made the thing too bulky. Maybe I'd find out I really like it, particularly since it does look like it has good sized keys.

I am surprised a little that they've got v. 2.0 of the OS in the Droid already. I wonder if it is completely stable. But in any case, you know they'll get updates out relatively quickly if there is a need. And then there will be the custom ROMs. Whatever Android phone you go with, you can pretty much bank on the community making it even better, sometimes even before it's been launched!

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Tight Focus...
nastebu @ 10/24/2009 1:52:58 AM # M Q
If they go with the Apple model-- minor hardware upgrades but major software upgrades available to all users--that would be a very good thing. Maybe that's one of the reasons Apple has such high levels of consumer satisfaction with the iPhone.

Palm has some time. WebOS is easily good enough to keep investor interest, even if the sales are only midling.

RE: Tight Focus...
Gekko @ 10/24/2009 2:05:00 AM # Q

hkk - maybe you can be our Android guinea pig? i look forward to your review.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/23/verizons-droid-is-a-series-not-just-a-phone-droid-eris-coming/

RE: Tight Focus...
twrock @ 10/24/2009 2:28:50 AM # Q
Gekko wrote:
hkk - maybe you can be our Android guinea pig? i look forward to your review.

No kiddin'. If you get one before I do, I want a full write up. (But I think it will be a little too OT if you ask Ryan to put it up here.) Maybe since the Eris is HTC, I still have hope that I can get my hands on a >3.5" screened device before the end of the year. I haven't been able to find any specs on that unit, but maybe HTC will finally bump the screens up from 3.2" on their Android devices.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: Tight Focus...
abosco @ 10/24/2009 7:19:17 AM # M Q
I'm actually more curious about the build quality. Whenever I tried out a G1, it felt like it was going to snap at any moment. That two-pronged slider mechanism seemed so unnatural.

It doesn't look very attractive, and Motorola doesn't have a track record for quality, but it may be built well since this is a company trying to save face.

RE: Tight Focus...
Gekko @ 10/24/2009 8:48:56 AM # Q

i'm tempted to go check out the Sprint HERO.
RE: Tight Focus...
hkklife @ 10/24/2009 3:24:47 PM # Q
Abosco;

Some of the older Moto dumbphones were built like absolute tanks. I have a RAZR2 that I still use for daily phone purposes and it's one of the most solid flip phones I've ever used. So I have much more faith in Moto pulling off a well-built flagship phone with no creaks or wobbles, than, say, HTC or Palm.

And don't worry, I'll definitely do a Droid impressions piece IF I decide to switch. I actually went to the local VZW store today and while they wouldn't divulge any solid info, the guy said the Droid was going to be "bad ass" and they were expecting low inventories & high demand, as VZW is going to be pushing the Droid more aggressively than the Storm 2 (big surprise, huh?) prior to the holidays.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Tight Focus...
twrock @ 10/24/2009 11:17:16 PM # Q
Gekko, definitely check it out. I think the Euro/Asia version with the chin is more to my liking, but I think the differences are only external. I was impressed, but it still wasn't the phone I was looking for.

Kris, I'm also "waiting" for the rumored HTC Dragon. Some of the rumors have it being a tweaked HD2 (WinMob unit). If that turns out to be true, it'll have a 4.3" 480x800 screen in a body smaller and thinner than my TX's! It will truly be impossible to complain the screen is too small on that thing. (And hopefully I won't have to mortgage the farm to afford it.)

As much time as I waste here, I've been wasting a lot more time on the Android sites hoping my "gotta have" device is finally announced. Oh well, still waiting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCJEYLIBQY

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: Tight Focus...
mikecane @ 10/25/2009 5:47:30 PM # Q
>>>This may VERY likely be my next phone, folks. But not until I give it a fondling thorough enough to put Mike Cane to shame.

I don't like the Droid hardware. I can imagine that keyboard being inadequate, to say the least.

I like the Hero -- and especially the Acer Liquid (but woe for its stingy built-in storage!) -- but with all these Android OS devices, I've yet to hear the Secret Word: PIM.

If any of you go Android, you'll likely want to do eBooks, so go look:

http://snurl.com/srqqq
http://snurl.com/srqr4
http://snurl.com/sghri
http://snurl.com/srqs6

I haven't investigated PDF yet because that's a goddammed nightmare on most every pocketable device.

Reply to this comment

Lament...

andy pandy @ 10/23/2009 7:55:02 PM # Q
hiya Tim from sunny Adelaide,

There is but a tiny fraction of me left that could be talked down; i think i've been patient. But Millhouses thoughts on how, sometines, it's 'the waiting to kiss' where there's much to be found, only have so much gas. Tim, tell me you don't own a Nokia N900...say it boy; and soon, very soon, God willing, so will i. What do you think the chances are that Access will roll out a version of the Garnet VM for this thing. i wrote them, but they're not talking.

cheers,
a

RE: Lament...
Tim Carroll @ 10/24/2009 9:01:40 PM # Q
Hiya Andy, from rainy-and-overcast (today) Sydney -

I don't own an N900. I appreciate its hardware sexiness on a geek level, but i couldn't buy one for myself. I just don't like Nokia's UIs. I never have. And the UI is nearly always the deciding factor in whether or not I want to own a device. It's why I've stuck with Palm for so long - I know PalmOS like the back of my hand and haven't found anything yet that beats it, although the iPhone comes mighty close.

I just hope I can grow to love webOS as much as I do PalmOS, otherwise my Palm love affair might end with my imported Pre. Experiments with the webOS emulator have been promising, although that really doesn't compare to using an actual device.

If you don't want to go to the trouble of importing, expansys are offering the Pre now: http://www.expansys.com.au/d.aspx?i=189373

...although, we have no idea whether Aussie SIMs are going to work in it yet.....

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That was a long wait to hear about another long wait

justauser @ 10/24/2009 3:40:59 PM # Q
Can't say I'm still waiting for the Pre to come to Aus now hearing this news. Probably stick with the Treo680 till it dies. Any platform is now fair game if it doesn't.

My gadget lust will have to be sated by Kindle (which now has graced our shores). With iPhones so prolific, smart phones have lost their wow factor anyway. Not gonna turn any heads whipping out a mobile at a business meeting any more. Kinda loses its appeal

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Tim Carroll @ 10/24/2009 9:15:25 PM # Q
For a long time, I felt mobile phones were the bane of existence. My first phone was a Treo, 'cause I figured that if society was going to force me to carry a little electronic ball-and-chain with me everywhere, then it might as well at least have other useful functions.

Here's a blog I wrote on Facebook awhile back, which is tangentially related....

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=16112669239

Don't be iFooled

Funny how things change over time. Doesn't feel like that long ago I was in high school, slagging off mobile phones as the bane of existence. Not everybody had one back then: they hadn't yet become the hideous, life-sucking necessity that they are today. But at the time, it certainly seemed like wherever you turned there was some inconsiderate retard taking over a public space either by playing with ringtones, having far-too-loud conversations, or just otherwise fiddling aimlessly with their f*cking mobile like they'd never seen a phone before.

It sickened me.

Not For Me, I would declare righteously, from atop my glorious teenage High Horse. I was not going to become one of those mindless drones, with eyes and mind forever locked on a tiny postage-stamp sized screen, forsaking the world around me in favour of a stupid, unnecessary lump of electronics.

Well! We all know how that story ends: society moved with the times and eventually forced me, at gunpoint, to get on board the Mobile Express. Hell, I have a job writing about phones now. They're ubiquitous. We have reached saturation point, folks. It's like my teenage self's worst nightmare brought to life, except with less sodomisation by David Koch. But, if there was one small benefit to take away from all this, it's that mobile phones at least weren't interesting anymore. Oh sure, you still had the obsessives who thought they're the greatest toy since the motorised dildo, but for the most part the mobile craze was dead. Not the hip new thing anymore, just something you need; like a wallet, or keys.

And then along came the ****ing iPhone.

Advertising hype sickens me on a regular basis (Hello, Lynx!), but the mind-numbingly overblown build-up to the release of the first iPhone was in a class of its own. Helped along by a complicit media, Apple managed to put the release of their new phone up there on the same societal pedestal as the f*cking Second Coming of Jesus. Revolutionary, they called it. There were kilometres-long queues outside Apple stores, for ****'s sake. Over a f*cking phone! It's not even that good!

In my aforementioned job as mobile commentator, I watched the hype snowball into an unstoppable monster. Merely mentioning the word "iPhone" would ensure massive amounts of traffic for articles that otherwise had nothing to do with it. People would see my own over-capable phone (a Palm Treo, if you must know) and ask "oo, is that the new iPhone?"

"NO!" I wanted to bellow in their faces. "IT'S NOT A F*CKING IPHONE! THE IPHONE IS NOT EVEN OUT IN AUSTRALIA, AND EVEN IF IT WAS I WOULDN'T BE CAUGHT DEAD PAYING THAT MUCH* FOR A F*CKING SH*TTY PHONE THAT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE BUTTONS!"

Like all things, it eventually came and went, and things seemed to be getting back to normal. Until last week, when Apple announced the next version of the iPhone would finally debut in Australia. According to The Australian today, Vodafone has been getting 40,000 iPhone-related inquiries daily since it was announced.

It's happening again. It shouldn't. The iPhone is a fraud, ladies and gentlemen. A glossy, overpriced fake. It's the phone version of Norma Khoury. The new 3G model fixes a lot of flaws with the original, but there's still plenty left over to bitch about. Here's a handy cheat sheet for you, should anyone ask why you couldn't give a sh*t about the iPhone craze:

The iPhone has no real buttons. Imagine typing out SMS on your microwave. Welcome to the iPhone revolution!

The iPhone's battery is sealed inside its casing like an Egyptian pharaoh. So when it dies, you have to send it away to Apple to have it replaced for an expensive fee. And you'll also be without your phone for about a week. Revolutionary!

The iPhone can't even do the basics properly. The iPhone can't do MMS. It can't record videos. It can't use wireless headphones. It has no memory card slot. It doesn't support some of the most popular media formats. There's no unlocked version. You have to sync with iTunes. On and on and on the list goes, the point being that while it might be a great web browser, it's a pretty sh*t phone.

The iPhone is pretty, stylish, and a decent little portable web browser. It fails in almost every other respect.

Don't be iFooled.

*Actually, two years prior I'd shelled out quite a bit for my first Palm, but that was a different time. And at least it was unlocked, for heaven's sake.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
jca666us @ 10/25/2009 7:06:14 AM # Q
After reading your old blog post Tim, it appears you need help!

countless BS and wordiness deleted for brevity

People would see my own over-capable phone (a Palm Treo, if you must know) and ask "oo, is that the new iPhone?"

That must have been a fun time for all :)

The iPhone is pretty, stylish, and a decent little portable web browser. It fails in almost every other respect.

Obviously Palm disagrees with you, considering how much they - and several other companies - have attempted to copy the iphone.

What you do not understand is that the iphone has a stellar user experience. Adding features and bumping specs isn't the answer to defeating the iphone.

Creating a better user experience is.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
bhartman34 @ 10/25/2009 9:28:29 AM # Q
What you do not understand is that the iphone has a stellar user experience. Adding features and bumping specs isn't the answer to defeating the iphone.

Creating a better user experience is.

So what does this "stellar user experience" entail, other than taking it out of the package and saying to yourself, "Hey, I just got an iPhone! Isn't that cool of me?!"

It's got thousands of apps, but the vast majority of those are throwaways. And without jailbreaking your phone (which, rumor has it, Apple is working on preventing you from doing) you can't run more than one of them at a time. The development process itself is antiquated, with Android employing a more open model, and Palm both a) allowing homebrew and b) encouraging distribution on multiple channels come December.

The iPhone was revolutionary when it was released. But for two years, the changes to the iPhone have been so infinitesimal that they've let the rest of the world catch up. Apple isn't going to be able to keep the iPhone's numbers up simply by referring to the je ne sais quoi of the user experience anymore. They're going to have to do something to really improve the user experience.

Personally, I do think it can be done. There are areas they could go into where other smartphones would be left wanting. Chief among them, I think is to release (or at least support) keyboards like this. Nothing improves usability like giving users a real keyboard to type on. And as already mentioned, they can change the development model to remove the stigma of jailbreaking one's iPhone (although I'm not holding my breath on that one), so that at least non-techies could run multiple apps at one time, if they so chose.

I'll disagree with Tim on one point, though: "Typing" on an iPhone isn't like using a microwave. On all the microwaves I've ever used, when you hit the button, it actually depresses at least a little. Using a microwave is more like using a BlackBerry Storm 2. :)

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
jca666us @ 10/25/2009 11:30:43 AM # Q
So what does this "stellar user experience" entail, other than taking it out of the package and saying to yourself, "Hey, I just got an iPhone! Isn't that cool of me?!"

Far be it from me to teach you about usability and user interface design.

>It's got thousands of apps, but the vast majority of those are throwaways.

Throw away an arbitrary 75% which you may thing are garbage and you still have at least 20,000 quality apps. Even if it were only 5,000, that's several thousands more than what the Pre has available.

Last I saw, the Pre is less an iphone, more of an iphone wannabe.

And without jailbreaking your phone (which, rumor has it, Apple is working on preventing you from doing) you can't run more than one of them at a time.

Not a rumor - Apple has every reason to stop jailbreaking - as it allows users to download and install app store apps. for free.

As for multitasking 3rd party apps - so far that hasn't proven to be an overriding concern for users - as neither the Pre nor android have had breakout sales numbers.

The development process itself is antiquated, with Android employing a more open model, and Palm both a) allowing homebrew and b) encouraging distribution on multiple channels come December.

I guess we'll see if either company has success with that. Right now, Apple has little reason to change.

The iPhone was revolutionary when it was released. But for two years, the changes to the iPhone have been so infinitesimal that they've let the rest of the world catch up. Apple isn't going to be able to keep the iPhone's numbers up simply by referring to the je ne sais quoi of the user experience anymore. They're going to have to do something to really improve the user experience.

I don't see that the rest of the world has caught up - yet.

And as already mentioned, they can change the development model to remove the stigma of jailbreaking one's iPhone (although I'm not holding my breath on that one), so that at least non-techies could run multiple apps at one time, if they so chose.

They'll need to work out the issue with battery life first.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/25/2009 1:47:30 PM # M Q
The iPhone was revolutionary when it was released. But for two years, the changes to the iPhone have been so infinitesimal that they've let the rest of the world catch up. Apple isn't going to be able to keep the iPhone's numbers up simply by referring to the je ne sais quoi of the user experience anymore. They're going to have to do something to really improve the user experience.

Apple's quarterly sales numbers say otherwise. They sold more iPhones this quarter than ever before.

Guys, if what you were saying is true, this platform would not have the sales numbers that it enjoys. This phone is not sold based on hype alone. If that were true, the second and third iterations would not have set new sales records each time.

No opinions from me in this post, fellas. Just the facts.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Tim Carroll @ 10/25/2009 2:33:55 PM # Q
^^ In the last two months, four of my friends have bought iPhones. The reason? Lack of decent alternatives in Oz, apart from WinMob devices. All wanted to upgrade to a smartphone. One had been eagerly waiting for the Pre like me but got sick of waiting for Palm to release it. (Can't blame him either, really. The wait is very very annoying.)

In short, I reckon the iPhone is going as gangbusters as it is right now because of the dearth of competition. Give webOS and Android some time to establish themselves and they'll start eating away at Apple. (I'd say watch the Droid closely, but I think it's too ugly to do as well as Verizon are hoping. And landscape keyboards still don't work for the mass market.) RIM, of course, already has their own beachhead, but if they don't junk the Blackberry OS and start afresh soon they're gonna be in real trouble - if they aren't already.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Gekko @ 10/25/2009 3:42:03 PM # Q

the Pre is no competition. it's a shit device based on my personal experience as well as the experience of many others as well as its shitty reviews and shitty sales numbers. now pull your thumb out of your ass and move on.
RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
jca666us @ 10/25/2009 4:10:45 PM # Q
Give webOS and Android some time to establish themselves and they'll start eating away at Apple.

Tim, given how good spec-wise Droid looks (and it'll be on Verizon to start), why would anyone want to wait for a Pre on Verizon?

Considering Droid's advertising hits alot of the same points the Pre advertising initially did, what possible reason would anyone have to go with a Pre?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
twrock @ 10/25/2009 5:04:41 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
Apple has every reason to stop jailbreaking - as it allows users to download and install app store apps. for free.

I'd ask for clarification. You aren't saying that jailbroken iPhones can download apps for free from the iTunes store, are you? 'Cause somewhere I missed that memo. And if that's true, Apple are complete idiots for creating a system that has that big of a hole. I personally don't think they are idiots, so that must not be what you meant.

So if you are just talking about jailbreaking giving people their freedom to get apps from sources other than Apple, well then, yes, and that's just one more reason why the iPhone experience is superior to all others, because end users are given no choice of where they can buy apps or even get apps for free.... Wait a minute, why's that better?!!

There's no chance you work for Apple, is there? I ask because it seems you've swallowed the entire pitcher of the company koolaid.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
twrock @ 10/25/2009 5:14:21 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
As for multitasking 3rd party apps - so far that hasn't proven to be an overriding concern for users - as neither the Pre nor android have had breakout sales numbers.

And I'm sure it won't be an "overriding concern", right up until the moment Apple "innovates" and allows multitasking, and all those iPhone users start crowing about how awesome it is and how this proves that the iPhone is the greatest smartphone ever. ;-)

No, typical of the pattern, until the iPhone has it, it wasn't needed. When the iPhone has it, it's the greatest thing. Ergo, nothing will ever be as great as the iPhone.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
mikecane @ 10/25/2009 5:49:24 PM # Q
>>>The iPhone is pretty, stylish, and a decent little portable web browser. It fails in almost every other respect.

You are irreparably brain-damaged.

Next!

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Tim Carroll @ 10/25/2009 5:54:23 PM # Q
Gekko:
the Pre is no competition. it's a shit device based on my personal experience as well as the experience of many others as well as its shitty reviews and shitty sales numbers.

Most reviews I read were pretty good, the sales figures that nobody knows about appear adequate for Palm to stay alive, and in a few days I'll be able to either disagree rudely with your personal experience or join the bitter "Palm OS 4 eva" crowd here at PIC. ;)

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
bhartman34 @ 10/25/2009 6:28:01 PM # Q
abosco wrote:
The iPhone was revolutionary when it was released. But for two years, the changes to the iPhone have been so infinitesimal that they've let the rest of the world catch up. Apple isn't going to be able to keep the iPhone's numbers up simply by referring to the je ne sais quoi of the user experience anymore. They're going to have to do something to really improve the user experience.

Apple's quarterly sales numbers say otherwise. They sold more iPhones this quarter than ever before.

Last quarter's sales don't really mean much. It's future sales that we're talking about, in this context. With the Pre out, and with multiple Android phones coming out, there are now numerous phones that can do what iPhone iDoesn't.


Guys, if what you were saying is true, this platform would not have the sales numbers that it enjoys. This phone is not sold based on hype alone. If that were true, the second and third iterations would not have set new sales records each time.

How does that logically follow? The hype didn't stop after the first generation of iPhones. They're hyped constantly. The iPhone franchise gets a lot of mileage out of just being produced by Apple.

Does the iPhone suck? No, it doesn't. The GUI, in particular, is something Apple did well. But the slickness of the UI isn't enough to keep them going.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
justauser @ 10/25/2009 7:44:05 PM # Q
It's not as if we all don't have access to an iPhone to check out the beast for ourselves. My wife has one. I regularly use it myself - for many of the aforementioned reasons I will not be replacing my 680 with one of these toys. And to confirm bhartman's point; There's plenty in the market that are just as pretty as the iPhone's UI. Seems every manufacturer has toted an iPhone killer-attempt in their line up over the last couple of years (and I did say attempt).
RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/25/2009 8:06:49 PM # Q
Last quarter's sales don't really mean much. It's future sales that we're talking about, in this context. With the Pre out, and with multiple Android phones coming out, there are now numerous phones that can do what iPhone iDoesn't.

What in the shit are you talking about? The iPhone has been out for almost three years now!! In order to last that long, you need substance beyond the fanfare. And it is unanimous that the iPhone did, indeed, deliver. This isn't even up for debate.

But the slickness of the UI isn't enough to keep them going.

You're right, it isn't. That's why they have rallied around the App Store, developer community, and iTunes integration. And guess what, it is working so well that every other company in the world is trying desperately to mimic it.

It's one thing to have an opinion that the iPhone fails to deliver in a few areas that may be important to you. If you can't live without a real keyboard or thousands of SD cards, fine, you can find a better solution. But to fail to acknowledge that the iPhone goes deeper than a pretty GUI is absolutely maddening. You're wrong.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
jca666us @ 10/25/2009 8:09:52 PM # Q
I'd ask for clarification. You aren't saying that jailbroken iPhones can download apps for free from the iTunes store, are you?

No; I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that there are people who've cracked downloaded apps., and have enabled these cracked apps. to be installed on jailbroken iphones - circumventing the app store.

As long as that situation exists, Apple (unfortunately) needs to crack down on the jailbreakers.

So if you are just talking about jailbreaking giving people their freedom to get apps from sources other than Apple, well then, yes, and that's just one more reason why the iPhone experience is superior to all others, because end users are given no choice of where they can buy apps or even get apps for free....

LOL - that's not what I'm saying at all - if jailbreaking was an alternative method to legally procure apps., I don't see a problem with that.


RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
jca666us @ 10/25/2009 8:12:08 PM # Q
Last quarter's sales don't really mean much. It's future sales that we're talking about, in this context. With the Pre out, and with multiple Android phones coming out, there are now numerous phones that can do what iPhone iDoesn't.

You don't get it - it's not what the iphone does, it's how it does it.

There were numerous iclones out for the past year, yet none have the sales numbers the iphone has.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
twrock @ 10/25/2009 8:40:09 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
LOL - that's not what I'm saying at all - if jailbreaking was an alternative method to legally procure apps., I don't see a problem with that.

And might you even admit that having a choice of where one can get their apps from might actually be a better situation for the end user? I'm really starting to think you are arguing the company line for Apple instead of looking at this from the end user's perspective. Why is it better for Apple to reduce the users' freedoms? Because end users are idiots and can't handle the freedom? I can't accept that. The whole thing is for the good of Apple [period].

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
nastebu @ 10/25/2009 11:26:55 PM # Q
Wow, I'm so glad we have another thread pointlessly bashing the iPhone. Because, you know, why not retread a classic.

And this time, Tim didn't even bother to work himself up to a new troll. He trolled using a *three year old blog post*!! Put more creativity into your trolling Tim.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
twrock @ 10/25/2009 11:27:23 PM # Q
Seems every manufacturer has toted an iPhone killer-attempt in their line up over the last couple of years (and I did say attempt).

(This is not at all aimed at the original poster, but....)

You know, I've been trying to drop the whole concept of the "whatever-killer" from my vocabulary and thinking. In the end, there is simply no way to do it, so why even bother to talk as if it can be done? Each phone stands on its own merits and each phone either does or doesn't do what any particular individual wants it to do. If it does what you want, and it fits in your price range, then you can be happy regardless of whether or not there is phone X out there with some other feature set. (And notice that I didn't say "better feature set" since each person gets to decide that for themselves.)

Besides, the moment anyone puts up one particular phone as the standard, then unless some other phone comes along that is exactly like it in every way, only better in at least one of those ways (whatever the heck that means!), the original will always be better. Because people start the argument accepting that the iPhone is the standard, the only thing that can ever be better than the iPhone, is the next iPhone. The whole thing is just silly.

Since I don't accept the premise that the iPhone is the standard or the best (regardless of what millions of others think), I don't think it needs to be "killed" by anything. I just want someone to make the device I want, with the feature set I want, at a price I can afford, and I'll be a happy camper. It looks very much to me that that device will be an Android phone (in great part due to the OS, but that is not the only factor).

Of course YMWV (your mileage will vary).


Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
twrock @ 10/25/2009 11:36:40 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
I'm saying that there are people who've cracked downloaded apps., and have enabled these cracked apps. to be installed on jailbroken iphones - circumventing the app store.

As long as that situation exists, Apple (unfortunately) needs to crack down on the jailbreakers.

... if jailbreaking was an alternative method to legally procure apps., I don't see a problem with that.

Ok, gotcha. Hmm, too bad there is apparently no way to separate the hackers from the pirates. And in that case, there's one more reason for me to want to go with Android as my smartphone OS.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
jca666us @ 10/25/2009 11:44:26 PM # Q
And might you even admit that having a choice of where one can get their
apps from might actually be a better situation for the end user?

Define better - nothing beats a one-stop shop for convenience.

I'm really starting to think you are arguing the company line for Apple instead of looking at this from the end user's perspective.

Now that is funny - thank you for the laugh...I am an end-user and I believe the main reason for apple's success with the iphone was that they (initially) stripped the phone down to very basic functionality and made the user experience the top priority.

More functionality has been added over time, and more will be added in the future.

>Why is it better for Apple to reduce the users' freedoms?

Who said anything about that? BTW, this is a phone, we're not trying to free POW's...jeez...

Because end users are idiots and can't handle the freedom? I can't accept that.

Apple (like it or not) caters to the masses.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
twrock @ 10/26/2009 12:17:10 AM # Q
jca666us wrote:
Define better - nothing beats a one-stop shop for convenience.

Ouch. So now we've reduced "better" to be a question of convenience. I truly do fear for this generation. :-)



Because end users are idiots and can't handle the freedom? I can't accept that.

Apple (like it or not) caters to the masses.

Double ouch! The masses are idiots who can't handle freedom and only want what's convenient. Sad, really.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?
RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
bhartman34 @ 10/26/2009 12:39:39 AM # Q
abosco wrote:
Last quarter's sales don't really mean much. It's future sales that we're talking about, in this context. With the Pre out, and with multiple Android phones coming out, there are now numerous phones that can do what iPhone iDoesn't.

What in the shit are you talking about? The iPhone has been out for almost three years now!! In order to last that long, you need substance beyond the fanfare. And it is unanimous that the iPhone did, indeed, deliver. This isn't even up for debate.

Are you even paying attention? The point is that the landscape is changing, not that the iPhone ruled the roost in the past. I'll happily agree that the iPhone did deliver -- for its time. The point is that Apple can't rest on its laurels anymore, releasing tiny incremental changes. Even the biggest change -- the voice control -- isn't revolutionary in the phone space, as far as the phone itself is concerned. (It is, of course, a bigger deal in terms of a media player.)


But the slickness of the UI isn't enough to keep them going.


You're right, it isn't. That's why they have rallied around the App Store, developer community, and iTunes integration. And guess what, it is working so well that every other company in the world is trying desperately to mimic it.

The App Store, as I said, has a very low signal to noise ratio. That's something universally acknowledged now. Yes, it sells iPhones to be able to say you have thousands of apps. But most of the apps are crap, and Apple's policies towards apps are beginning to catch up with them as other phones enter the app space. (Remember the Google Voice brouhaha? That will continue to happen to Apple as long as they continue their tight-fisted development policies.

The iTunes integration is something I can acknowledge, but I consider that part of the UI. It's part of what makes the iPhone easy to use (at least from an apps and music standpoint). But as we've all seen, iTunes integration isn't necessarily unique to the iPhone. If Apple considered that to be their crown jewel, they didn't protect it nearly well enough. Unless Apple gets on the ball and changes how iTunes syncs (which would be in line with the major changes I think they need to make to stay on top), that advantage will go away. Even changing the sync won't necessarily keep that advantage, though. If Apple relies on software that's external to the phone, then they're gambling that no one develops better software. Up until now, that's been a profitable bet, but it's not a sure thing, by any stretch.


It's one thing to have an opinion that the iPhone fails to deliver in a few areas that may be important to you. If you can't live without a real keyboard or thousands of SD cards, fine, you can find a better solution. But to fail to acknowledge that the iPhone goes deeper than a pretty GUI is absolutely maddening. You're wrong.

If you want to include iTunes in the mix, then fine. It's a pretty GUI, hype, and iTunes that makes the iPod successful for now. But as I said, they've got some competition now that does most, if not all, of what the iPhone does, and does it better. About all the advantage the iPhone has right now is the pure app count, but that's going to change when people start seeing what truly open systems can enable.

(Note: I'm not necessarily saying the Pre (or even WebOS) will do this. I think WebOS will be a serious challenger, once Palm demolishes the wall between homebrew and "official" apps in December (because homebrew apps aren't limited to only using documented APIs and services, for example), but I certainly can't predict how things will go for WebOS. Where I do predict Apple's in serious trouble is with Android, because on that front, they're getting attacked from multiple directions, and Android has the benefit of Java in the SDK, so the code library is much richer than the relatively immature (at this point, at least) WebOS.

To sum up: There's no question that the iPhone has been popular. That goes without saying. My point is that its popularity is mostly due to hype. The remaining 10% could probably be split between app availability and iTunes integration.

Ask yourself a simple question: Without an Apple logo, how much press, and how many sales, do you think the iPhone would've gotten?

There's a big difference between saying that a product sucks and saying that its reputation is deserved.


RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Tim Carroll @ 10/26/2009 2:21:50 AM # Q
And this time, Tim didn't even bother to work himself up to a new troll. He trolled using a *three year old blog post*!! Put more creativity into your trolling Tim.

Trolling??!!

nastebu, this is Palm Infocenter!! I'm not looking to bait iPhone fans here. My blog post wasn't about bashing the iPhone per se`: it was bashing those that are so obsessed with mobile phones they still think they're amazing. It was bashing a ridiculously over-hyped media campaign that failed to mention all the things (and there were and still are many things) that the iPhone doesn't do.

I posted that in response to justauser's observation that smartphones have lost their wow factor thanks to the iPhone, not because I was looking to bait anyone.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
twrock @ 10/26/2009 5:20:43 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
nastebu, this is Palm Infocenter!! I'm not looking to bait iPhone fans here.

Yeah, Tim has a good point here (even though it's not his main point). No one is asking iPhone or Android or any other device fans to hang out here at PalmInfocenter. It's a freakin' PALM website. If the Palm fanboys want to talk about all that they see good with Palm and the problems they see with other devices on a Palm website, why not just leave them alone already? And seriously, if you take offense at someone here taking a shot at your precious iPhone or Hero or N900 or whatever on this Palm website, stop whining about it and just leave. Nobody's forcing you to come here and read this stuff. If you've moved on to some other device that supposedly is better, get over your obsession with Palm and just move on. It's not as if they are bothering you over at your device's fanboy site, so why are you bothering hanging out here? All I can figure is you are the one looking to troll.

And you guys who do already own your "better" device are just so full of it. You already know you have no intention of returning to Palm. You are already convinced to the point you argue with every statement that suggests your device isn't the be all and end all. No one's throwing this stuff in your face. You're jumping in front of it.

Here, I'll make a commitment right now. The day I stop relying on my Palm device as my PIM, I'll bid you all farewell and be gone. But I'll bet some of you will still be here trying to tell everyone how much better your iPhone is. (Maybe that's because that's the kind of person who buys an iPhone, or maybe buying the iPhone creates that kind of person; hard to tell.)

Disclaimer: Tim might not be baiting the iPhone fanboys among us, but I can't honestly claim the same. I can think of at least ..... maybe ...... two times I purposefully did it. ;-)

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
nastebu @ 10/26/2009 6:14:04 AM # Q
Tim, please. That's a very thin excuse to post a long diatribe about the iPhone.

This *is* Palminfocenter, so why bother starting long threads about the iPhone that are just going to rehash an old, pointless, argument that has very very little to do with the Pre? Nothing, and I mean nothing, in this thread hasn't been said twenty times before. Very little has to do with Palm.

Several of us, like Time, enjoy provoking iPhone owners. And then enjoy blaming iPhone owners for reacting like sheep to provocative comments. So boring!

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Gekko @ 10/26/2009 6:21:31 AM # Q

IMO all of Palm's competition is fair and relevant discussion here especially given that we are all past or present Palm users looking for the holy grail.
RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/26/2009 8:13:50 AM # M Q
The App Store, as I said, has a very low signal to noise ratio. That's something universally acknowledged now.

Bullshit. I've got Quickoffice, TomTom, Red Laser, and Madden '10 on my phone that say otherwise. These are not fluff apps. Can you name an app that is available on another platform that isn't available on the iPhone? I can think of only one - Google Voice. Your point is completely wrong.

If you want to include iTunes in the mix, then fine. It's a pretty GUI, hype, and iTunes that makes the iPod successful for now. But as I said, they've got some competition now that does most, if not all, of what the iPhone does, and does it better.

Didn't they say the same thing about the Zune three years ago? There is always an iPod or iPhone killer coming out, and they all have one thing in common. None of them are ever any good.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Gekko @ 10/26/2009 1:30:10 PM # Q

bosco - time to go back to school?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR1Daulmadk


RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Tim Carroll @ 10/26/2009 2:29:41 PM # Q
Tim, please. That's a very thin excuse to post a long diatribe about the iPhone.

Frankly, nastebu, I couldn't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock what you wanted to call it. I enjoy your comments here mate - they display a level of thoughtfulness that is usually a cut above - but in this case, I feel like calling the WAAAAmbulance. Your precious iPhone is not beyond reproach and as I already said, that wasn't even the point anyway. Build a bridge, dude.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
mikecane @ 10/26/2009 5:42:32 PM # Q
>>>Wow, I'm so glad we have another thread pointlessly bashing the iPhone. Because, you know, why not retread a classic.

Damn, don't any of them have *women* they can take this out on?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
nastebu @ 10/26/2009 10:56:21 PM # Q
That WAAAmbulance probably has PIC's phone number blocked it gets called so often from here.

Okay, I'm whining. But it's not that the iPhone is above reproach, it's just that these threads are so damn boring. So to add something new to the bashing, here's my (partial) list of iPhone complaints:

1.) what the f**k with no todo sync?
2.) why can't Apple provide a way to sync all third party applications through itunes? It's just straight out silly making you sync every third party application a different way.
3.) there's still no easy way to shut off wifi. You have to go through about three levels of menu to get to a freaking off switch, which is ridiculous on a device with a sealed in battery.
4.) 3.2 is the first iteration (for me) of the OS that has serious lag
5.) is it really so hard to add folders to the spring board? It would make a huge difference
6.) changing language keyboards has become especially laggy since 3.0
7.) multi-tasking. I didn't care for a long time, but some third party apps (like my Japanese dictionary) would be much more functional running in the background.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
nastebu @ 10/26/2009 10:57:06 PM # Q
and that dead dog thing is just flat out disturbing.
RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
justauser @ 10/27/2009 1:11:31 AM # Q
Can you name an app that is available on another platform that isn't available on the iPhone?

I've found it hard finding an equivalent to Callrec on iPhone http://tinyurl.com/yzaql9f This app always seems to be on the top 5 selling apps for PalmOS so plenty Treo people like it. There's sort of an iPhone one that will only record outgoing calls ('Recorder 10' - and I think it beeps to let the other party know it's recording). Callrec doesn't seem like the type of app that would get through the censors due to legalities.

I must say I will miss this app the most when my 680 dies. I am not the most attentive listener so I rely heavily on being able to play back a conversation to get detail. Also, it's the only option when taking calls hands-free on the road. It's saved me many times since I got my 680.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Gekko @ 10/27/2009 8:50:33 AM # Q

WTF? stop recording phone calls. who the F does this? it's rude, unnecessary, and probably against the law.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/27/2009 12:18:20 PM # M Q
Yes, in the US, it's illegal to record a phone call without informing the other party.

Gekko, are you getting an iPhone yet, or are you still sticking with your Fisher Price phone?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Gekko @ 10/27/2009 2:29:43 PM # Q

sticking with the Centro since it does what i need for now. great PIM, Excel/Word, FTP, streaming radio, and basic internet (News and Market Updates). great battery life too. more important is the Sprint network coverage, speed, and pricing ($99 all you can eat everything - incredible value). i'm not going to AT&T. if Sprint ever gets the iPhone, i'll consider it.
RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
justauser @ 10/27/2009 9:16:59 PM # Q
abosco wrote:
Yes, in the US, it's illegal to record a phone call without informing the other party

Not sure that's true in all states of your country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws I'm not a lawyer or US citizen so I could be wrong.
Nothing illegal, invasive or sinister about the way I use this app anyway. Seems consistently one of the most popular paid titles available to PalmOS

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
SeldomVisitor @ 10/28/2009 3:37:52 AM # Q
Yeah, that's a State thang in the US, mostly, but note that the Feds say ONE person of an N-sided conversation has to know about the recording.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Tim Carroll @ 10/28/2009 5:04:27 AM # Q
nastebu:
and that dead dog thing is just flat out disturbing.

Heh. A quote from the immortal Spider Jerusalem. See:

http://www.giaever.com/op_premambo/transmet/quotes.htm

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Jerusalem

If you ever get a chance to read Transmetropolitan, go for it. Warren Ellis' best work, IMO.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
bhartman34 @ 10/29/2009 4:34:52 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
So what does this "stellar user experience" entail, other than taking it out of the package and saying to yourself, "Hey, I just got an iPhone! Isn't that cool of me?!"

Far be it from me to teach you about usability and user interface design.

Most of the elements of interface design that the iPhone incorporates are now available in other phones. That's part of my point: Multi-touch, the use of the accelerometer, the proximity sensor: All of that is now in other phones. And these other phones have a leg up, in that they've got less restrictive systems that don't clamp down on homebrew applications. About the only interface design element that the iPhone still can lay claim to is the integration with iTunes, and we've all seen how easily that can be laid waste.


>It's got thousands of apps, but the vast majority of those are throwaways.

Throw away an arbitrary 75% which you may thing are garbage and you still have at least 20,000 quality apps. Even if it were only 5,000, that's several thousands more than what the Pre has available.

Saying that 1/4 iPhone apps is valuable is probably too generous. Check out this study, and the slide that says "Paid Applications - Usage Over Time". Long-term audience is generally 1% of total downloads.


Last I saw, the Pre is less an iphone, more of an iphone wannabe.

The Pre is very different from the iPhone, in all but physical design and multi-touch interface. Palm has taken a different approach to development (in terms of openness) and given the underlying OS a little bit more power (e.g., utilizing multitasking). It seems to me that the Pre builds on the iPhone interface and improves upon some things the iPhone doesn't do so well. Where the Pre lacks, obviously, is in the apps. But an app catalog can be built up relatively quickly, whereas it's more time-consuming to build up an OS.



And without jailbreaking your phone (which, rumor has it, Apple is working on preventing you from doing) you can't run more than one of them at a time.

Not a rumor - Apple has every reason to stop jailbreaking - as it allows users to download and install app store apps. for free.

That's a problem. If they're going to prevent jailbreaking (which it sounds like they have to do, given their security model), then they're going to have to give in on some other aspects of the OS. Some of the reasons for jailbreaking -- like multitasking or running apps in the background -- are important to users, and if they don't address them, WebOS and Android will eat into their sales.


As for multitasking 3rd party apps - so far that hasn't proven to be an overriding concern for users - as neither the Pre nor android have had breakout sales numbers.

"Breakout" is a subjective term. The Pre's sales numbers were respectable, given Wall Street's reaction to them. Certainly, the Pre wasn't a failure. If it was, there wouldn't be a Palm right now. And while the Pre didn't significantly boost Sprint, it was, by all indications, the best-selling phone Sprint has ever had. And part of the reason the Pre didn't help Sprint so much is that Sprint is so heavily into pre-paid phones.

As for Android, I think it's too early to tell how successful Android phones will be. There are still a lot of them which haven't been released yet. The buzz over the Droid is somewhat encouraging for Android, though.


The development process itself is antiquated, with Android employing a more open model, and Palm both a) allowing homebrew and b) encouraging distribution on multiple channels come December.

I guess we'll see if either company has success with that. Right now, Apple has little reason to change.

I can see them not wanting to radically change their model, but Apple should be at least a little nervous. The flap with Google over Google Voice highlights the risk of trying to exert too much control over what apps run on your platform. 300,000 (or however many there are) apps don't mean much, if the one or two apps you want to run are available but not allowed on your phone. For a while, Apple had the field all to itself in terms of apps that ran on phones (unless you want to count the JVM apps that ran on some feature phones). Open platforms that anyone can develop and deploy for change that, to a great extent.


The iPhone was revolutionary when it was released. But for two years, the changes to the iPhone have been so infinitesimal that they've let the rest of the world catch up. Apple isn't going to be able to keep the iPhone's numbers up simply by referring to the je ne sais quoi of the user experience anymore. They're going to have to do something to really improve the user experience.

I don't see that the rest of the world has caught up - yet.

In terms of the user interface on the phone (again, excluding iTunes), it's already happened. In terms of the apps, it hasn't happened yet, but the models that Android and Palm are using are much more competitive, in the long run. And even in terms of iTunes, it's not going to be long before that domino falls, unless Apple makes major changes to the way that the software communicates with the iPod/iPhone.


And as already mentioned, they can change the development model to remove the stigma of jailbreaking one's iPhone (although I'm not holding my breath on that one), so that at least non-techies could run multiple apps at one time, if they so chose.

They'll need to work out the issue with battery life first.

According to this, the iPhone and Pre are rated for the same talk and standby time. The ZDNet review of the Pre even states, "Battery life is also a concern, as the smartphone only lasted about a day on a single charge, which, in all fairness, is about the same as the iPhone." (Emphasis added)

So it doesn't seem to me that the iPhone is gaining all that much by not multi-tasking.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
bhartman34 @ 10/29/2009 8:58:18 PM # Q
abosco wrote:

bhartman34 wrote:

The App Store, as I said, has a very low signal to noise ratio. That's something universally acknowledged now.

Bullshit. I've got Quickoffice, TomTom, Red Laser, and Madden '10 on my phone that say otherwise. These are not fluff apps. Can you name an app that is available on another platform that isn't available on the iPhone? I can think of only one - Google Voice. Your point is completely wrong.

Wow....A whole...what was that? Four whole apps? It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Note: I worded my criticism above very precisely. I said there was a high signal to noise ratio. That presupposes that there's some "signal" among the "noise".

And just so you know: Pre users can already run QuickOffice and navigation apps, if they have Classic. There's nothing groundbreaking there that Apple's done, in terms of apps.

And Red Laser? Nifty trick the app does, but it's really just a database lookup, once the scanning is done. It does point out the limitation of the Pre's camera (specifically, the problem with macro shots), but that's about it. Otherwise, there'd already be such an app for the Pre.



If you want to include iTunes in the mix, then fine. It's a pretty GUI, hype, and iTunes that makes the iPod successful for now. But as I said, they've got some competition now that does most, if not all, of what the iPhone does, and does it better.

Didn't they say the same thing about the Zune three years ago? There is always an iPod or iPhone killer coming out, and they all have one thing in common. None of them are ever any good.

No one ever said anything of the kind about the original Zune. It was pegged as a dog from the moment it came out, by almost every review. The most it was ever referred to as was an iPod "alternative".

The Zune HD has gotten better reviews (which wouldn't be too difficult), and does, indeed, outshine the iPod in some ways (e.g., video output quality), but we'll have to see how that goes.

In terms of the cell phone market, the situation is very different. The iPhone doesn't do a lot of phone functions well (if at all). And Apple's made some design decisions (e.g., going with an all-software keyboard, preventing multitasking, using a non-user-replaceable battery) which lead them open to attacks from competition. Creating a phone is different from creating a media player, and Apple has made some missteps that could really cost them. And frankly, AT&T isn't helping their case, either.

Again, this isn't mean to mean "iPhones suck". I'm simply pointing out that there's more and better competition out there than there was a year ago. Apple needs to kick their game up a notch, so to speak, in order to keep up, because the platforms they're up against now are far more agile than the ones that were around when the iPhone was introduced (with PalmOS most definitely included in that).

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/29/2009 9:45:53 PM # Q
Wow....A whole...what was that? Four whole apps? It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Note: I worded my criticism above very precisely. I said there was a high signal to noise ratio. That presupposes that there's some "signal" among the "noise".

Do you want me to name all 75 ****ing apps on my phone that I use at least once a week?

I don't care what you meant by "signal to noise". I understand the reference, and I even understand the I&C meaning. You're missing the point of your own phrase. If there were 100 apps available, and it had a high "signal to noise" ratio, then there would be only a handful of good apps available. Thus, if I wanted a flashlight, I'd be in luck. But if I wanted a functional graphing calculator, I'd be hard pressed for options.

In the current reality of 100,000 iPhone apps, even if the "signal to noise" ratio is high, there are still literally THOUSANDS of applications that are highly useful, well coded, and cheap. And moreover, they're profitable for the developers. Imagine that?

And just so you know: Pre users can already run QuickOffice and navigation apps, if they have Classic. There's nothing groundbreaking there that Apple's done, in terms of apps.

And Red Laser? Nifty trick the app does, but it's really just a database lookup, once the scanning is done. It does point out the limitation of the Pre's camera (specifically, the problem with macro shots), but that's about it. Otherwise, there'd already be such an app for the Pre.

Yeah, that's right, rely on the capabilities of Classic. Because everybody is buying a smartphone with the distinct intention of having to use an emulator for any and all useful software. Brilliant.

Regardless of whether Red Laser is just a "nifty trick", the fact remains that it exists. It exists because of excellent hardware, well-written API's to access it, a strong software distribution network, a large audience of buyers, and a healthy ecosystem. The Pre has MAYBE one of those components.

The argument that the App Store only stocks iFart apps is tired, old, and WRONG. I have the unbelievable software on my phone to prove it. I'd stay and dismantle your arguments further, but I feel like playing Brothers In Arms on my iPhone. That's available on the Pre, right?

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Tim Carroll @ 10/29/2009 10:34:34 PM # Q
^^ Ouch!

Yep, the iPhone is a pretty damn good gaming platform right now, even though personally all-touch devices don't really do it for me with gaming (that includes the Pre). It's gonna be hard for anyone to catch up there.

But that underscores for me the nature of the iPhone's market. It's becoming the mass-market "fun" entertainment platform. One opening for the Pre and other devices is in being better communicators, which the variety of form factors and physical keyboards offers.

Anyway, I'd caution against writing off Palm (or any competitor) simply 'cause the iPhone has a bigger selection of apps. So did Palm OS and Windows Mobile when the iPhone come out. People are willing to jump ship if they like what they see on the other side of the fence.

Just for fun, the third-party apps I use regularly on my Centro:

*A-Lex Dictionary - no equivalent on webOS as of yet, although 3G will make using online dictionaries a much more pleasant experience. Will definitely be installing on Classic.

*2TwitMe - it's been a nice toy in these last dying days of PalmOS, but there are four different Twitter clients to try out on webOS already.

*CallRec - use it to record phone calls I make for PIC. Much easier than taking notes while on the phone. No equivalent on webOS yet.

*Chatter Email - the webOS email client should be just as good, from my playing around in the emulator.

*Pocket Tunes - the webOS Music player doesn't play as many file formats and doesn't have half as many options. Will possibly be installing on Classic if I really don't get on with the homebrew Music remix or NaNPlayer, once it eventually comes out.

*Coreplayer - plays every video file known to man. webOS doesn't. Will definitely be installing on Classic, at least until the hackers can add extra codecs to webOS or Coreplayer release their webOS version (which they are working on).

*Softick Audio Gateway - webOS has built-in A2DP, so no need for it, although I'm going to miss AG's excellent range of options.

*Kinoma - use it for Youtube. No need on webOS, which has a built-in client (and Jason Robitaille just released patches that let you download the videos, too. Who said nothing good ever comes out of Canada?)

*TomTom - this is very nearly a dealbreaker. There is no webOS stand-alone navigation software available yet, and may not be for awhile. And since Classic can't use the built-in Pre GPS, I can't use the PalmOS version either. I could very well see myself ditching the Pre if stand-alone nav software doesn't come out in the next year or so.

*SydTrains - easily searchable database of Sydney train timetables. Will be installing on Classic. Actually thinking that if I ever get the time I might try making a webOS app that can do this myself. Should be simple enough if it just pulls down the info from the CityRail website.
Sometime PIC blogger
Treo 270 --> Treo 650 --> Treo 680 --> Centro
I apologise for any and all emoticons in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
nastebu @ 10/30/2009 2:21:46 AM # Q
Apps on the iPhone are excellent, deep, well-coded, and cheap. As absco pointed out, pretending that there are only iFart apps is just silly.

That being said, Tim has a point that this doesn't necessarily mean the iPhone OS will lock in users. The very very casual nature of app buying on the iPhone, and the fact that the apps are cheap, makes me think that people won't feel so constrained about switching platforms if they like another phone better.

I have maybe 5 apps that I paid $10 or more for, and a total investment of about $80, maybe $30 of it I use consistently. I googled around and that's about average. It would suck to be out that money, but it really isn't much compared to a year or two on a cell phone. And if I had spent that money on games I could still pick up the iphone and play the games even as I took calls on my new Pre.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/30/2009 6:58:46 AM # M Q
I'm slightly embarrassed to report that I've purchased around $200 worth of apps for my iPhone 3G since July 2008. In comparison, I spent $300 on the phone on launch day, and $100 per month in service.

Let me just make this disclaimer. This ecosystem CAN be replicated. It can even be done better. But right now, no other platform really compares. There have been two large technological jumps for me. The first was when I got my first cell phone in 2001, and I quickly wondered how people ever got around without one. The next was when I bought the iPhone, and I wondered how people ever got around without such fantastic integration.

I swear, as dumb as it sounds, I am still most impressed by Now Playing. It was available on 2.0 launch, and it has issued a tremendous amount of updates since then, adding Rotten Tomatoes reviews, in-app Fandango ticket purchases, trailers, and DVD releases. Best of all, it's maintained by a single developer, available free, and contains no ads. I love it.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
bhartman34 @ 10/30/2009 11:59:17 AM # Q
abosco wrote:
Yes, in the US, it's illegal to record a phone call without informing the other party.

That varies state-to-state, I think. In NJ, where I live, it's legal to record a phone call as long as one of the parties to the call knows it's being recorded.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
bhartman34 @ 10/30/2009 1:07:55 PM # Q
abosco wrote:

Wow....A whole...what was that? Four whole apps? It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Note: I worded my criticism above very precisely. I said there was a high signal to noise ratio. That presupposes that there's some "signal" among the "noise".


Do you want me to name all 75 ****ing apps on my phone that I use at least once a week?

Well, firstly, I didn't know there were "***ing" apps on the iPhone. Do they use the accelerometer? Do they come with splash guards? :)

Secondly, based on the usage statistics I've seen, I'd be surprised if you could actually name 10 apps that you use on a weekly basis. If you can, then that's great. But anecdotal evidence is not necessarily that valuable.


I don't care what you meant by "signal to noise". I understand the reference, and I even understand the I&C meaning. You're missing the point of your own phrase. If there were 100 apps available, and it had a high "signal to noise" ratio, then there would be only a handful of good apps available. Thus, if I wanted a flashlight, I'd be in luck. But if I wanted a functional graphing calculator, I'd be hard pressed for options.

If you understand the concept, why did you deliberately misrepresent what I said? My whole point was that there are only a few gems, mixed in with a whole lot of fluff.


In the current reality of 100,000 iPhone apps, even if the "signal to noise" ratio is high, there are still literally THOUSANDS of applications that are highly useful, well coded, and cheap. And moreover, they're profitable for the developers. Imagine that?

Let's say that there are 5,000 highly useful apps (however we want to measure "highly useful", which is kind of subjective). That would still mean that 95% of the 100,000 apps are crap. And that was my point.



And just so you know: Pre users can already run QuickOffice and navigation apps, if they have Classic. There's nothing groundbreaking there that Apple's done, in terms of apps.

And Red Laser? Nifty trick the app does, but it's really just a database lookup, once the scanning is done. It does point out the limitation of the Pre's camera (specifically, the problem with macro shots), but that's about it. Otherwise, there'd already be such an app for the Pre.

Yeah, that's right, rely on the capabilities of Classic. Because everybody is buying a smartphone with the distinct intention of having to use an emulator for any and all useful software. Brilliant.

The point I was making is this: QuickOffice for iPhone isn't some revolutionary piece of software for the iPhone. I could run QuickOffice on my old TX if I wanted to, and Palm users can run almost all of their old Palm apps for that $30, whereas they would have to buy them on the iPhone.


Regardless of whether Red Laser is just a "nifty trick", the fact remains that it exists. It exists because of excellent hardware, well-written API's to access it, a strong software distribution network, a large audience of buyers, and a healthy ecosystem. The Pre has MAYBE one of those components.

Red Laser exists because of the hardware and possibly because of the APIs (although that's debatable, as I think there's been enough work by the webos-internals crowd on the camera to implement the same thing on the Pre without the APIs in place, if the hardware was up to it). None of the other things you mentioned above has anything to do with it. Individual apps come from individual brains. Having more developers doesn't mean that any one particular project is more or less likely to be developed. And anyway, it's not like it was a new idea. Other software has existed for cell phones for some time to read bar codes.



The argument that the App Store only stocks iFart apps is tired, old, and WRONG. I have the unbelievable software on my phone to prove it. I'd stay and dismantle your arguments further, but I feel like playing Brothers In Arms on my iPhone. That's available on the Pre, right?

Again, I didn't say the iPhone only had crappy apps. To put it in a simpler way, I said the vast majority of them are crap. Even if some of them are good, most of them are still crap.

And as far as the BIA game goes, I'm almost certain such a game will never come to the Pre. You know why? Because it's not an appropriate game for a cell phone. Apple has delusions of the iPhone being a great gaming device, but it's never going to be much more capable at gaming than a Palm TX with better hardware, because that's basically what it is.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
Gekko @ 10/30/2009 1:30:18 PM # Q

you lost me at the italics.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/30/2009 2:24:45 PM # M Q
I'm too frustrated with you too keep explaining this. The signal-to-noise argument would have merit under these circumstances:

1) The iPhone has 100,000 apps.
2) High-quality applications available on other platforms are NOT available on the iPhone, despite the high app count.

However, the iPhone DOES have the most cutting edge smartphone software. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether or not those 99,000 iFarts exist. It has all of the high quality apps you need, and the presence of low quality apps does not diminish the usefulness of the high quality apps.

If I have to explain this again, I'm going to go sucker punch toddlers.

Your gaming comment is also wrong. Apple isn't the one controlling the gaming aspect of the iPhone or iPod Touch. They began marketing that aspect only after tons of games were available, large software houses started pumping them out, and ratings and sales were sky high. The proof is simple - Sony and Nintendo have had to completely revamp their software distribution. The new PSP Go won't use the cartridges from the original PSP because of the growth of digital video game distribution, CHIEFLY because of the iPhone.

Also, you missed a side comment in the subtext of your own post. Did you notice you mentioned Quickoffice for Palm OS at $30? It's now $10 on the iPhone, and so is D2G. Remember the days of $70 Dataviz software? It's in the past thanks to this ecosystem that encourages competition and sales. The App Store has done way more for smartphones than you're willing to admit. Even Tim is willing to cede this point.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/30/2009 2:28:18 PM # M Q

I forgot to mention this. There actually is an iSex (or similar) in the App Store. Apparently, it makes use of the accelerometer, magnetometer, microphone, and stopwatch to rate your performance while it's in your pocket.

While that's not exactly my cup of tea for a smartphone app, it just goes to prove the fact that there are literally apps for freaking ANYTHING on the iPhone.

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
SeldomVisitor @ 10/30/2009 2:33:39 PM # Q
> ...There actually is an iSex (or similar) in the App Store. Apparently, it
> makes use of the accelerometer, magnetometer, microphone, and
> stopwatch to rate your performance while it's in your pocket...

You have to wear PANTS while using it!?

RE: That was a long wait to hear about another long wait
abosco @ 10/30/2009 3:48:24 PM # Q
Staple it to your balls. What do I care.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G
Reply to this comment

Palm Asia/Aus Delays

alandrew @ 10/24/2009 4:06:57 PM # M Q
As annoying this is to hear,and it is a pill.....its long term effect will be better, Palm must set themselves up for success.
I can't wait anylonger for a Pre' and will buy a German one, Just think Palm should have made unlocked Gsm availabe ! Then those outside of their current market stratergy could at least enjoy the experience with all the other Palm fanboys !

feeling sorry for myself?......you bet

RE: Palm Asia/Aus Delays
hkklife @ 10/24/2009 8:50:33 PM # Q
Don't pity yourself...pity Palm and their utter inability to understand the historical strengths of the company/platform, the needs & loyalty of their user base, or to forsee most market trends.

Despite Yankowski's claims to the contrary, Palm hasn't been "well-positioned whichever way the market goes" since 1999 or 2000 or so, save the accidental success of the Treo 600/650 made possible by the Handspring acquisition.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Palm Asia/Aus Delays
SeldomVisitor @ 10/25/2009 4:18:52 AM # Q
I would think it is fairly obvious that Palm has made the correct decision due to lack of sales in that region - they need to sell hundreds of thousands of Pres, not hundreds, to make a region "worthwhile".

RE: Palm Asia/Aus Delays
nastebu @ 10/26/2009 6:21:56 AM # Q
On the surface, I agree that concentrating on certain markets at first is a good idea. But I wonder if letting so much more time go by without drawing in carriers in these countries isn't going to make it harder to get them on board later. By next year, carriers will have lots more choices in smart phone offerings. Right now Palm has a good product, shouldn't they be trying to get that product embraced by wireless carriers while they have a perceived lead?
Reply to this comment

iPhone stands alone

rpa @ 10/25/2009 5:47:23 PM # Q
I spent some time in an large electronics shop in Hong Kong, a market where you can buy anything offered in an unlocked GSM model, and played with all the new phones from HTC, Nokia (they did not have the N900), Sony Ericsson and the iPhone. I felt like a kid in a toys r us. The iPhone simply blows the rest of the pack away. I can see where techies may be 'loyal' to android but I can't see any mainstream consumer not loving the iPhone. The iPhone will be released in China soon and sales will REALLY take off.

BTW, I read that the sales figures for the last quarter put the iPhone at 7.4 million and all of Nokia's touch screen phones at 5+ million. The sales figures confirm my assessment.

FYI, I bought the unlocked iPhone.

RE: iPhone stands alone
jca666us @ 10/25/2009 8:15:18 PM # Q
And I'm sure it won't be an "overriding concern", right up until the moment Apple "innovates" and allows multitasking, and all those iPhone users start crowing about how awesome it is and how this proves that the iPhone is the greatest smartphone ever.

If Apple "innovates", it won't be in just enabling multitasking. They have to solve the battery life issue.

No, typical of the pattern, until the iPhone has it, it wasn't needed.

I never said it wasn't needed - as a certain class of applications could benefit from multitasking.

Just as a certain class of applications on the Pre could benefit from being written in native code :)

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