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Comments on: Apple Breaks webOS iTunes Sync, Again

iTunes Icon There's only one word for it - well more of a sound, really - and that sound is: sigh. Apple's latest update for iTunes, version 9.0.2, has once again deliberately broken compatibility with the Palm Pre.

So far there's no details on which aspect of the USB ID chain that Apple is checking this time, but they must be running out of options. The real question is: once Palm is spoofing every aspect of the iPod's ID, will Apple take the extra step of issuing iPod/iPhone firmware updates to keep Palm locked out? The battle is about to get interesting again - and your correspondent is willing to bet that'll happen when webOS 1.3 is pushed out. Say, November 15?

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oh well!

jca666us @ 10/29/2009 3:43:38 PM # M Q
About time for Palm to work on a solution which doesn't rely on Apples hard work. :)
RE: oh well!
DarthRepublican @ 10/29/2009 6:09:09 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
About time for Palm to work on a solution which doesn't rely on Apples hard work. :)

Well, they already have drag and drop, the Amazon MP3 store, and numerous other media apps like WinAmp and DoubleTwist which will sync with just about any MP3 player. But trolling aside, it probably makes sense for Palm to move on to more productive tasks like optimizing webOS for speed and beefing up the PIM apps. They made their point when they put iTunes compatibility into the Pre in the first place. The future is open and the past is proprietary.
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

RE: oh well!
jca666us @ 10/29/2009 7:16:16 PM # M Q
obviously even with all of these other options, some clown at palm keeps pushing for this half-assed iTunes media sync.

Time to give it up.

RE: oh well!
bhartman34 @ 10/29/2009 7:33:35 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:

Time to give it up.

Why in God's name would they do that?

As long as it doesn't take a significant amount of development time (and apparently, it doesn't), then there's no reason for them to stop. They're going to continue to do anything (legal) that they think will help them sell Pres, and allowing users the option of syncing with iTunes fits into that.

The only thing that would change that is if Apple found something to change that's not in the USB data. That's a possibility, because the last time I checked, all of the ID data represented itself as either Apple or iPod when the Pre's in Media Sync mode:

Bus 001 Device 008: ID 05ac:1209 Apple, Inc. iPod Video
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 1
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
idVendor 0x05ac Apple, Inc.
idProduct 0x1209 iPod Video
bcdDevice 2.16
iManufacturer 1 Apple Inc.
iProduct 2 iPod
iSerial 3 000A274ab9ad039b

It might be that iTunes is checking the interface, which for the Pre, lists novacom:

iInterface 20 novacom linux

Or, it could be something else altogether, unrelated to the USB metadata, which I think would be a step in the right direction for Apple.

RE: oh well!
jca666us @ 10/29/2009 8:07:06 PM # Q
Why in God's name would they do that?

I don't know - perhaps the fact that Palm is still chasing after itunes compatibility after all of this time - and this is making Palm look bad?

RE: oh well!
bhartman34 @ 10/29/2009 8:23:46 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
Why in God's name would they do that?

I don't know - perhaps the fact that Palm is still chasing after itunes compatibility after all of this time - and this is making Palm look bad?

"...all of this time"? What, since June?

Considering how mind-numbingly easily Palm has been able to fix the compatibility issue, I wouldn't expect them to stop any time soon. The only hope that Apple has of stopping Palm from doing it is to change their method. If they'd stop using the USB metadata to do their dirty work, Palm wouldn't be able to fix it so easily. If it's really that critical to Apple, that's the way to go. Otherwise, Palm isn't going to be their only problem. Look for Android to do the same thing, along with any other platform that cares to. Apple's not going to be able to put this toothpaste back into the tube.

RE: oh well!
jca666us @ 10/29/2009 9:21:29 PM # Q
Since June it's given Palm less than stellar press.


RE: oh well!
bhartman34 @ 10/29/2009 10:42:40 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
Since June it's given Palm less than stellar press.

What press have you been reading? Most of what I've read has either been supportive or indifferent. Sure, there are some iPod/iPhone related sites that deplore it, but for the most part, it's a non-issue for the press.

That's not to say that some controversy hasn't been stirred, of course. The tech press likes to point out how Palm did this, and make mention of it when one side or the other makes the latest move. But it's far from clear that it's given Palm "less than stellar press".

And it's worth noting that some of the pieces that were written against Palm (e.g., by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes) didn't even bother to understand the issue before they wrote about it.

RE: oh well!
nastebu @ 10/30/2009 2:29:15 AM # Q
For me the sum up is I don't think that this iTunes dust up has helped Palm sell Pres. If the objective was to sell to customers with the promise of syncing with iTunes, it's not working. Most users are going to hear, "it syncs with iTunes... sometimes," which isn't going to sell a lot of phones.

Tim seems convinced that Palm is going to win this. If that's true, maybe it is worth it to Palm to get the battle over with now. But it seems like a very poor business model to be relying on a kludgy hack that Apple is going to break at every opportunity for a selling point on your phone.

RE: oh well!
jms001 @ 10/30/2009 5:12:53 AM # Q
I hadn't gotten the impression that anyone was convinced anyone was going to win this. I'd just gotten the impression that Tim and everyone thought it was interesting to watch them try to one-up each other.

Speaking personally, I probably wouldn't choose to use iTunes anyway. Last time I looked at that software, it was very poorly written.

RE: oh well!
LiveFaith @ 10/30/2009 6:15:07 AM # Q
** Well, they already have drag and drop, the Amazon MP3 store, and numerous other media apps like WinAmp and DoubleTwist which will sync with just about any MP3 player. But trolling aside, it probably makes sense for Palm to move on to more productive tasks like optimizing webOS for speed and beefing up the PIM apps. They made their point when they put iTunes compatibility into the Pre in the first place. The future is open and the past is proprietary. **

Darth, that's about as well said as I have read. Keep it up Palm, the walls will continue to fall in the future. Including your own ... :-o
Pat Horne

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Doesn't Apple make money when they sell music?

mwrob @ 10/29/2009 3:53:21 PM # Q
If so, why do they want to limit their number of potential customers.
Mike
RE: Doesn't Apple make money when they sell music?
jca666us @ 10/29/2009 3:56:44 PM # M Q
They make their money off of the hardware...
RE: Doesn't Apple make money when they sell music?
canuck67 @ 11/3/2009 3:03:30 PM # Q
Don't think for a minute that Apple is not making money of selling music and movies because they are.
RE: Doesn't Apple make money when they sell music?
Gekko @ 11/3/2009 3:05:23 PM # Q

in America, it's not a sin to make money.
Reply to this comment

It's long past time for Palm to give up

diamondsw @ 10/29/2009 3:58:24 PM # Q
And yet this article still seems to make Palm out to be the good guys. Deal with it - they are wrong, and are just making it worse with time.

I had such high hopes for the Pre, as I've always liked Palm, and Rubenstein did a great job at Apple and now revitalizing Palm. It's a damn shame they are tarnishing themselves, the Pre, and upsetting their customers over something so incredibly stupid and childish.

RE: It's long past time for Palm to give up
Tim Carroll @ 10/29/2009 4:55:16 PM # Q
Palm are the "good guys", unless you somehow insanely consider one company deliberately breaking interoperability at the expense of their own customers to be "good".

I suppose you'd advocate Microsoft locking Apple out of Windows, so Apple can't bootstrap on their hard work. Or Google disallowing third-party contacts sync.

Must this argument be had again?

RE: It's long past time for Palm to give up
jca666us @ 10/29/2009 5:07:06 PM # M Q
The only reason for this argument to be had is because you still don't understand the issues at play.
RE: It's long past time for Palm to give up
andy pandy @ 10/29/2009 5:13:28 PM # Q
My guess is that this whole thing is being driven by the reactionary behaviour of one-petulant child, and not much more.
RE: It's long past time for Palm to give up
CFreymarc @ 10/29/2009 5:24:58 PM # Q
Forget the compatibility, the public relations of Palm being a hackeresque culture back ended iTunes just bad.

DoubleTwist it out, it works well and it has a plug in for the Pre. Walk away from Cupertino and run with this guys!

It is not at the level of an elementary school fight. But them elementary school kids know when to stop fighting.

RE: It's long past time for Palm to give up
jnuneznj @ 10/31/2009 8:47:26 PM # Q
Tim the only reason we would need to have this argument again is that you seem so dense that you don't understand. MS Windows is a platform which Microsoft wrote and published APIs with the sole purpose of other writing applications for it. Google allows you to use their APIs to add syncs. Microsoft hasn't given anyone access to the Zune APIs. Is it illegal? No. Is it wrong? No.

Funny that you bitch about openness but I am sure you use closed software. (Windows? OS X? WebOS? Linux with Flash? Or maybe NVidia drivers? How about ATI drivers?) Educate yourself a bit.

Reply to this comment

does it really matter?

Gekko @ 10/29/2009 5:29:24 PM # Q

iPhones Sold = ~30,000,000

Pres Sold = ~300,000

Number of iPhone Customers who will switch to Pre because of iTunes = 0


RE: does it really matter?
DarthRepublican @ 10/29/2009 6:21:51 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:

iPhones Sold = ~30,000,000

Pres Sold = ~300,000

Number of iPhone Customers who will switch to Pre because of iTunes = 0

Speaking as an iPod owner who happened to appreciate the Pre's compatibility with iTunes, I say bull****. The point is that I'm just as much an Apple customer as any iPhone user. I own two Mac Minis and two iPods. But I have never owned an iPhone and Apple's behavior makes me at just a little bit less likely to ever own one. So Apple's behavior does have consequences for me. True, I'm just an ordinary guy who probably looks more like John Hodgeman than Justin Long but then a guy who decided to stop buying GM cars back in 1980 was just one guy back then too and now he's one more reason why GM went bankrupt.

I bought my Mac Minis because they are small, easy to manage, and integrate easily into my existing network and talk to my Windows file server and laptops. Now I see Apple for the first time since I started using their products deliberately making their products harder for me to use. If Apple is as big a pain in the ass as Windows, what good is it?
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

RE: does it really matter?
abosco @ 10/29/2009 6:43:12 PM # M Q
GM's failure has less to do with sales and more to do with expenses. It's a misconception that people stopped buying their cars.
RE: does it really matter?
bhartman34 @ 10/29/2009 7:52:08 PM # Q
abosco wrote:
GM's failure has less to do with sales and more to do with expenses. It's a misconception that people stopped buying their cars.

I'm not sure you can compartmentalize like that. Keeping sales in line with expenses is part of the challenge

As to the main point of the thread:

Palm understands that people don't switch to the Pre because of iTunes syncing. But they understand (as Apple does) that the inability to sync with iTunes may dissuade some iTunes users from switching to the Pre. They're going after the market of people with iPods, rather than iPhones. There's a certain set of people who think to themselves, "I like the things Pre does, but the iPhone can sync with iTunes." It's not a zero sum game, where Palm has to steal iPhone users. There are still plenty of cell phone users, believe it or not, who don't have iPhones.

RE: does it really matter?
abosco @ 10/29/2009 8:34:50 PM # Q
Legacy costs from pensions and healthcare of workers from 40 years ago led shaved profit margins. When compared to the competition, which doesn't have unionized labor, the costs to produce each vehicle were much higher. More competitive prices meant that GM couldn't recoup its extra expenses even if they sold more vehicles.

While GM's sales have been in decline for a while, it is not the reason why they failed. Legacy union costs are almost 100% of the reason.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: does it really matter?
nastebu @ 10/31/2009 12:48:15 AM # M Q
Legacy union costs were in there, but to say they were 100% is to let management off the hook way to easily.
RE: does it really matter?
abosco @ 10/31/2009 9:38:40 AM # M Q
Well whose fault was it that legacy costs spiraled out of control? Soft management and a powerful government lobby for the union.
RE: does it really matter?
Gekko @ 10/31/2009 9:51:42 AM # Q

"Everyone knew Detroit's reputation for insular, slow-moving cultures. Even by that low standard, I was shocked by the stunningly poor management that we found, particularly at GM, where we encountered, among other things, perhaps the weakest finance operation any of us had ever seen in a major company.

For example, under the previous administration's loan agreements, Treasury was to approve every GM transaction of more than $100 million that was outside of the normal course. From my first day at Treasury, PowerPoint decks would arrive from GM (we quickly concluded that no decision seemed to be made at GM without one) requesting approvals. We were appalled by the absence of sound analysis provided to justify these expenditures.

The cultural deficiencies were equally stunning. At GM's Renaissance Center headquarters, the top brass were sequestered on the uppermost floor, behind locked and guarded glass doors. Executives housed on that floor had elevator cards that allowed them to descend to their private garage without stopping at any of the intervening floors (no mixing with the drones).

In my relatively few interactions with chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, I found him to be likable, dedicated, and generally knowledgeable. But Rick set a tone of "friendly arrogance" that seemed to permeate the organization."

http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/21/autos/auto_bailout_rattner_excerpt.fortune/?postversion=2009102109

RE: does it really matter?
mikecane @ 11/2/2009 3:35:05 PM # Q
>>>Legacy union costs are almost 100% of the reason.

Oh, so there were never any crap cars? Were you born yesterday? Oh, wait. You were.

Reply to this comment

Sure is fun to watch....

hgoldner @ 10/30/2009 12:24:45 PM # Q
This cat and mouse game between Palm and Apple is certainly entertaining. To a certain extent it is self-inflicted by Palm because they insist on continuing to market the WebOS handsets as iTunes compatible. If they'd just stop doing that, it probably wouldn't make a significant difference in their sales volume.

As far as Apple is concerned, it amazes me that they don't see how much *more* lucrative the iTunes platform could be if they didn't just open it up to other players. They figured out that DRM-free music was the way to go, how much longer will it take them to realize that opening up the software to other players will also enhance their position?

RE: Sure is fun to watch....
jca666us @ 10/30/2009 1:11:05 PM # M Q
amazing - a day after iTunes locks out the pre - palms stock drops nearly 13%

investors are losing confidence in palm - about time.

RE: Sure is fun to watch....
bhartman34 @ 10/30/2009 1:54:48 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
amazing - a day after iTunes locks out the pre - palms stock drops nearly 13%

investors are losing confidence in palm - about time.

The Pre's stock price probably has little to do with the lock-out. The day before Apple locked the Pre out of iTunes, Palm's stock also dropped. It's been a bad week for tech stocks generally, and Palm's not immune to that.

Obviously, it's been a bad month for Palm. We'll see how November goes with the release of the Pixi and the new OS update.

RE: Trust
e_tellurian @ 10/30/2009 3:47:39 PM # Q
If one party agrees to something then changes their terms without notice does this create a trust issue with the vender?

Did Palm have an agreement with Apple?

Peace,

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Sure is fun to watch....
jca666us @ 10/30/2009 5:01:11 PM # Q
Palm had no agreement with Apple - the ex-Apple folks running Palm feel it's their right to use itunes - whether the owners of iTunes (Apple) want them to or not.

>The Pre's stock price probably has little to do with the lock-out.

Still, it's a contributing factor.

As is the excitement over droid - and the impact that will have on Pre sales.

Also, the (expected) lukewarm reception to the Pixi

Lastly Sprint's loss - which underscores how little the Pre did for Sprint.

Investors are beginning to wake up - hence the dramatic drop in Palm's stock price.

Reply to this comment

Putting it Simply

ChiA @ 10/30/2009 4:27:47 PM # Q
Apple buys a two floor building called SoundJam. Apple renovates it, uses it for organising music and renames the place iTunes.
Apple adds iPod to its family and renovates the place so iPod's at home organising its music.

Apple later turns the ground floor into a store for selling music whilst iPod uses the first floor to organise its music collection. Apple is compelled to put locks on the doors and padlocks on the music which only his iPod family can unlock, his record company suppliers don't want people stealing the music and giving it away.

Apple doesn't like the padlocks on the music, it persuades the suppliers to get rid of the padlocks so that anyone can come and buy music from his store, but his iPod family still use upstairs for organising their own music. There's a lock on the 1st floor, he'd like some private space for his family so they can arrange their music collection in peace.

Apple builds an extension to his store and provides an inventory of whatever music any of his customers purchase and even music purchased elsewhere. He allows his customers to use the extension to arrange their music however way they fancy at any time of day.

But there's this one customer, the Palm Pre, which insists on breaking into the first floor whenever it pleases. The Pre even tries to pass itself off as one of the iPod family, yet doesn't do anything or contribute anything to the maintenance of the iTunes building.

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 10/30/2009 7:11:26 PM # Q

"Ray Rhodes gained notoriety for his no-nonsense approach and unusual ways of motivating his players. One such tactic was an analogy that compared losing a home game to burglars breaking into a man's house and raping his wife."


RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 10/30/2009 9:23:26 PM # Q
Software is not a physical building. Copying files from one computer to another is not a maintenance or security problem. Analogy FAIL.
RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 10/31/2009 3:31:10 AM # Q

the bottom line is that Apple built the software and they have the right to decide how it's used. if they don't want Palm products to access it, that's their right. end of story.
RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 10/31/2009 5:01:38 AM # Q
Software is not a physical building. Copying files from one computer to another is not a maintenance or security problem.
.

By that reasoning:
Your money in your bank account is not a physical building, merely a file kept electronically on a computer. Electronic transfer of your money from your account to another account is not a maintenance or security problem.

Carrying on with the analogy, Palm keeps breaking into the bank manager's office to manage its iTunes savings account, even though all facilities are available via internet banking.

Mercifully the computer security realise that copying files from one computer to another can be a problem, especially when they're spyware, viruses and trojans.
Furthermore security alone may be motivation enough for Apple to break the syncing. Just imagine the headlines: iPods/iTunes Spreads Viruses!

Analogy FAIL

My analogy is there to illustrate ownership and responsibility.
Comprehension and Conceptualisation FAIL!

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 10/31/2009 5:19:12 AM # Q
Gekko:
the bottom line is that Apple built the software and they have the right to decide how it's used. if they don't want Palm products to access it, that's their right. end of story.

The bottom line is that Apple are assholes, standing in the way of consumer freedom and using one of the world's largest music retail outlets to prop up their own hardware business and making things just that little bit more difficult for people who want to shop there and have a seamless experience. Palm are flipping them the bird. Good on 'em.

ChiA:

Your money in your bank account is not a physical building, merely a file kept electronically on a computer... Palm keeps breaking into the bank manager's office to manage its iTunes savings account, even though all facilities are available via internet banking.

Another FAIL. Your digital media collection is NOT your bank account, and Apple are not the brave defenders of personal finances against black-hat hackers. They are simply making things more inconvenient for everybody except themselves.

If security was really the issue then Apple would be using a far more secure method of blocking than a half-assed, wrongheaded abuse of the USB ID chain that is easily circumvented within a matter of hours (and yes, it only takes that long) by anyone that puts their mind to it.

I'd like to see you defend Microsoft if they decided to block all non-MS hardware from directly interfacing with Windows.

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 10/31/2009 6:16:47 AM # Q

in America we believe in a rule of law. we believe in protecting intellectual property.

MSFT believes it's in their best interest to keep their software standards open to other manufacturers. i think typically, Apple agrees with this and does it as well. but in this particular case, Apple believes iTunes is a proprietary system for their own devices and they choose to keep it closed to competitor devices and that's their right.

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 10/31/2009 6:26:32 AM # Q
^^ Sigh. Don't go jca666us levels of retarded on us, Lizardman. There is no intellectual property violation here. There is Apple using USB - an open standard - to block out non-Apple hardware.

If they wanna go that route of hardware lockouts, fine. They can cook up some secret sauce between iTunes and iPods that genuinely is their own intellectual property, and sue the pants off anyone who rips it off. But they can't piggyback on an open standard of hardware communication and then expect to be able to get away with perverting it in a way for which it was never intended to be used.

Palm are being consumer-friendly. Apple are not. That's "putting it simply".

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 10/31/2009 6:27:15 AM # Q

this is America. we believe in the rule of law here.
RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 10/31/2009 7:15:21 AM # Q
There is no intellectual property violation here.

Keep telling yourself that Tim - maybe one day you'll actually believe that - by that time Palm will no longer be in business.

There is Apple using USB - an open standard - to block out non-Apple hardware.

Which - as per the USB-IF - is perfectly fine. The people who define the USB standard have stated Apple is using the USB standard as intended.

RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 10/31/2009 7:42:23 AM # Q
The bottom line is that Apple are standing in the way of consumer freedom

Apple doesn't prevent anyone from buying music from Zune Marketplace, Amazon, Wal-Mart or the numerous other music shops. The consumer has the freedom not to buy music from Apple.

Your digital media collection is NOT your bank account

You're right, you have the media stored under licence from the copyright owner whereas your money in the account is yours to legally use as you please.

Apple doesn't force you to use iTunes to store your media anymore than you're forced to store money in a certain bank account. But just as there are rules and obligations in agreeing to keep money with a certain bank, Apple has set its conditions to using iTunes. If you're not happy with them you can go somewhere else, just as you can keep your money with a different bank or in the mattress.

just that little bit more difficult for people who want to shop there and have a seamless experience

Yes, I'd like to have a seamless experience at my local supermarket, I want to use their stockroom for my home possessions at any time without charge. I want to bring my pet pit bull called Pre into the store to help me take the stuff from the stockroom and the occasional shopping home. I don't understand why they ask him to wait outside when he can so easily walk in through those doors and grab the meat straight from the meat counter. How dare that supermarket interfere with the way I want to shop and store my things!

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 10/31/2009 7:46:09 AM # Q
RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 10/31/2009 8:12:38 AM # Q
I'd like to see you defend Microsoft if they decided to block all non-MS hardware from directly interfacing with Windows.

As Microsoft doesn't manufacture any PCs and Windows interfaces purely with non-MS hardware, that'll be a catastrophic decision for Microsoft!

Microsoft provides Windows an operating system for people to code for as they reasonably please within the Windows terms of use. Apple provides iTunes as an iPod manager and music store, not as an operating system. It feels it's not in its interest to allow other devices to sync with iTunes.

In any case it's in Microsoft's interest to allow third party devices to access Windows. There's a strong demand to use iPods with Windows and allowing this reduces the chance of users defecting from Windows. Making Windows a flexible OS helps to maintain its perception and dominance.

Microsoft is free to develop Mac and Linux software for its Zune players yet haven't done so. Presumably it's not worth its while.

If they wanna go that route of hardware lockouts...
...can't piggyback on an open standard of hardware communication
...USB ID chain that is easily circumvented within a matter of hours

There's nothing fundamentally different between the food, bed and flooring in your residence compared to other people. Sure, anybody else is just as capable of eating the food or walking around in your residence as you are. Why put a lock on your residence when it can be easily circumvented within a matter of hours?

RE: Putting it Simply
nastebu @ 10/31/2009 9:46:25 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
Gekko:
the bottom line is that Apple built the software and they have the right to decide how it's used. if they don't want Palm products to access it, that's their right. end of story.

The bottom line is that Apple are assholes, standing in the way of consumer freedom and using one of the world's largest music retail outlets to prop up their own hardware business and making things just that little bit more difficult for people who want to shop there and have a seamless experience. Palm are flipping them the bird. Good on 'em.

Tim, "Apple are assholes" is your bottom line? That's not a very persuasive argument. Apple is a computer company behaving in a way as to maximize profits. "Asshole" has nothing to do with it.

RE: Putting it Simply
nastebu @ 10/31/2009 9:48:41 AM # Q
Gekko wrote:

the bottom line is that Apple built the software and they have the right to decide how it's used. if they don't want Palm products to access it, that's their right. end of story.

My only issue with this is that Apple *doesn't* have a *legal* right to block Palm out. In that sense, Palm has a right to exploit a loophole as well. It's very rude behavior, but it's not actually wrong in a legal or, strictly speaking, moral sense.

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 10/31/2009 9:53:12 AM # Q

situational ethics?

OUTRAGEOUS!!!

RE: Putting it Simply
abosco @ 10/31/2009 9:54:04 AM # M Q
Tim, you can claim it's anti-consumer and anti-choice, but Apple is neither violating the law nor the USB-IF specifications. Customers have the ability to buy music from other places. Customers even have the ability to buy iTunes music and put it on any device they choose. So long as this is true, all you're able to do is cry about it. Meanwhile, Pre users get a flaky sync solution, and Apple loses little business.

Apple profits way up this quarter. Palm profits, not so much. Why would Apple want to change anything?

RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 10/31/2009 10:09:51 AM # Q
Tim, "Apple are assholes" is your bottom line? That's not a very persuasive argument.

Best laugh today! "Tim" and "persuasive argument" together - such a thing doesn't exist!!!!!!!

"Tim" and "grasping at straws" is a more apt description.

RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 10/31/2009 10:49:44 AM # Q
My only issue with this is that Apple *doesn't* have a *legal* right to block Palm out. In that sense, Palm has a right to exploit a loophole as well

CLARIFICATION: Apple has every legal right to do with its software as it legally pleases; Palm has no legal right to compel Apple into doing what Palm wants with Apple's software.

You can legally enter the mall and exercise your right to free speech by loudly cursing at the size of other people's backsides.

It's very rude behavior, but it's not actually wrong in a legal or, strictly speaking, moral sense.

But the mall owner has the right to see how to legally get you out!

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 10/31/2009 1:16:58 PM # Q
Jesus H. Christ. That certainly provoked the nutcases, didn't it?

From the top.

1) If you shop at the iTunes store, one of the world's biggest retail music outlets and the ONLY place to get certain content, your only way to directly sync your purchases in the most convenient manner is if you own Apple hardware - despite the fact there is no technical issue that makes this necessary.

2) This behaviour is blatantly anti-consumer.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

Gekko:

this is America. we believe in the rule of law here.

Good thing no laws are being broken then, eh?

Bosco makes the point "why would Apple change?" And he's right, why would they? But does the fact that this is good for Apple's profits mean we should all be cheering when one company throws up arbitrary technological roadblocks specifically designed to get in the way of interoperability, which is something that benefits us all?

Hell freaking no!! Unless you're batshit-crazy insane, like the troll-bot. The rest of you are just horribly misguided. I look forward to the corporate-executive's-wet-dream future you all seem to so eagerly welcoming, where you can only shop at particular places if you own properly branded hardware.

RE: Putting it Simply
abosco @ 10/31/2009 2:17:06 PM # M Q
Alternatively, Palm could bundle a sync software that interfaces with the native iTunes XML files and also mimics the look and feel of iTunes. It could automatically open on Mac or PC when the device is connected.

RIM already does that with their Blackberry line. The result is that people have an easy sync solution, access to their iTunes content, and they don't have to worry about whether it's working this week.

Of course, you'll refute that by saying, "Oh, Palm shouldn't have to write their own software, blah blah blah." Well guess what, they do. If they want to quit this bullshit charade, they need to do exactly what RIM did. End of story. Apple won't budge on this issue. This is now Palm's fault, so get mad at them instead.

RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 10/31/2009 2:46:36 PM # Q
Crazy?

I guess resorting to personal attacks and name calling when you fail to win your argument isn't crazy from your viewpoint.

If you shop at the iTunes store, one of the world's biggest retail music outlets and the ONLY place to get certain content

So each music outlet has it's exclusives but you can get most music from most online outlets.

your only way to directly sync your purchases in the most convenient manner

Apple hasn't offered convenient syncing of all devices with iTunes, but it allows anybody to create their own solutions to sync their music and video purchases from the store.

The consumer is free to consume from any store and consume the music on any device of their choosing. This is what you brand anti-consumer behaviour.

You've singled out convenient sync for iTunes but where's the convenient solution for syncing Palm Pres with Zune Marketplace or Realmusic?

There may be no technical issue preventing a Pre from syncing with iTunes but Apple simply doesn't want the hassle of dealing with any issues which may arise. Just as there's no technical issue preventing me from walking into your workplace but you may not want the hassle of me being there!

one company throws up arbitrary technological roadblocks specifically designed to get in the way of interoperability

Are you referring to the same company, Apple, which published the open letter pleading for the music industry to remove DRM so music can be played on any device?
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/

Tim Carroll said

I look forward to the corporate-executive's-wet-dream future...where you can only shop at particular places if you own properly branded hardware.

Well I'm happy with the present: my iTunes and Amazon MP3 purchases are loaded onto my Mac/Windows laptop, Linux media centre/NAS and Windows Mobile smartphone. I can transfer my music between them at will, don't even need iTunes to do it.


That's all there is to it.
provoked the nutcases...
you're batshit-crazy insane, like the troll-bot. The rest of you are just horribly misguided.

Oh the party's only just begun and you've become so grumbly and foul-mouthed already...
Dear oh dear!

RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 10/31/2009 3:43:21 PM # Q
Jesus H. Christ. That certainly provoked the nutcases, didn't it?

The pot calling the kettle black...

If you shop at the iTunes store, one of the world's biggest retail music outlets and the ONLY place to get certain content, your only way to directly sync your purchases in the most convenient manner is if you own Apple hardware

The most convenient way for me is to copy the files from the filesystem to my device of choice - Apple doesn't block that.

This behaviour is blatantly anti-consumer.

No it's not - get over it. Apple never promoted itunes as a cross-platform sync solution. It might be seen as anti-consumer if they had in fact promoted itunes as such and proceeded to block devices out.

Also, why should Apple's hands be tied to the Pre??? If they have to worry about backwards compatibility with every third rate device out there, that would limit how they can develop itunes in the future.

But does the fact that this is good for Apple's profits mean we should all be cheering when one company throws up arbitrary technological roadblocks specifically designed to get in the way of interoperability, which is something that benefits us all?

Itunes was never promoted as an interoperable piece of software. It wasn't written to benefit anyone but owners of apple hardware.

The rest of you are just horribly misguided.

Seems like the person who doesn't understand what itunes is - is horribly misguided.

Please Tim, for your own mental health, get a clue! Beating this nonissue into the ground won't convince anyone you're right nor will it make your already tenuous viewpoint any stronger.

RE: Putting it Simply
gmayhak @ 10/31/2009 7:07:30 PM # Q
We should all get behind Tim on this, if he can get Apple to come around maybe he'll be able to straighten out the Department of Defense next! All those tax dollars we've spent on their computers and they keep making it harder to hack into Global Thermonuclear War :-/

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&source=hp&q=global+thermonuclear+war+game+movie&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=SOvsSojTLoTssQPti6X1Aw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQqwQwAA#


Matthew.
Tech Center Labs

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 10/31/2009 7:36:16 PM # M Q
does it really matter? does anyone really care? how many Pre users are out there? 300K? and how many of those even care? palm is a pimple on Apple's ass.
RE: Putting it Simply
DarthRepublican @ 10/31/2009 9:00:34 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:

in America we believe in a rule of law. we believe in protecting intellectual property.

Which is why we increase the length of copyright every time Disney's patent on Mickey Mouse is about to expire....Nevertheless, protecting one corporation's business model is normally not the business of our country. If it were, the RIAA would be able to sue anyone whom they suspected of sharing music online into oblivion....Oh shit!

MSFT believes it's in their best interest to keep their software standards open to other manufacturers. i think typically, Apple agrees with this and does it as well. but in this particular case, Apple believes iTunes is a proprietary system for their own devices and they choose to keep it closed to competitor devices and that's their right.

If they really believed this was their right they'd have filed suit against Palm as soon as the Pre debuted. The fact that they haven't suggests that Apple realizes that they wouldn't have a case and have instead chosen to fight Palm with software tweaks and hoping they will get frustrated and quit.

It's very similar to the way Microsoft never bothered to sue Sun for giving OpenOffice the ability to open its proprietary Office file formats or Opera Software for spoofing Internet Explorer's User Agent string. There is nothing sacred about patents and copyrights (the US constitution allows them to promote the progress of science and the arts but puts limits on their length). And things like file formats and identification strings fall way short of what we normally consider "intellectual property."
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 11/1/2009 4:27:29 AM # Q
If they really believed this was their right they'd have filed suit against Palm as soon as the Pre debuted. The fact that they haven't suggests that Apple realizes that they wouldn't have a case and have instead chosen to fight Palm with software tweaks and hoping they will get frustrated and quit.

Or perhaps Apple doesn't want to sue Palm and open a can of worms (with Palm countersuing over *their* dubious patent claims).

Likewise, Palm also doesn't have a case (to force Apple to open itunes), so they resort to the cat & mouse bullshit.

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/1/2009 5:56:51 AM # Q
ChiA:

Well I'm happy with the present: my iTunes and Amazon MP3 purchases are loaded onto my Mac/Windows laptop, Linux media centre/NAS and Windows Mobile smartphone. I can transfer my music between them at will, don't even need iTunes to do it.

Mate, you are a nerd. You are posting comments on Palm Infocenter. I too am a nerd and have no problem with managing my media with the software of my choosing.

My little sister, or my Mum, both who buy music off iTunes regularly, are not. So far as they are concerned, iTunes is where the music "lives". iTunes is where they go to find it and iTunes is what they use to manage it. Palm know this. Anyone with half a clue knows this. The average computer user, even in the 21st century, is still not really capable of managing multiple media software packages. It's condescending and patronising to many to say it, but it's still true for the vast majority.

Thus, direct iTunes sync is the absolute best method for managing iTunes-purchased media. Why do you think Apple are so jealously guarding it?

You ask why I'm not making similar complaints about other stores? Because they aren't deliberately breaking interoperability. If Palm implemented a Zune Store sync feature and MS deliberately broke it I would call shenanigans on that, too. They haven't, so I'm not.

gmayhak:

We should all get behind Tim on this, if he can get Apple to come around maybe he'll be able to straighten out the Department of Defense next!

Your sarcasm notwithstanding Gary, I really couldn't care less whether or not a bunch of Apple fanboys and embittered Palm haters (who pop up on PIC with depressing regularity) from the Internet - whom I've never actually met in reality and likely never will - agree with me. I just find your arguments ridiculous. You are championing arbitrary technological lockouts. You are championing the limitation of your own freedoms. WTF is wrong with you all?

That was a rhetorical question, by the by. I'm done here. At least until this argument crops up again when Palm re-enable the sync...
Sometime PIC blogger
Treo 270 --> Treo 650 --> Treo 680 --> Centro
I apologise for any and all emoticons in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 11/1/2009 6:22:06 AM # Q

don't let hatred blind you.

RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 11/1/2009 8:30:11 AM # Q
My little sister, or my Mum, both who buy music off iTunes regularly, are not. So far as they are concerned, iTunes is where the music "lives". iTunes is where they go to find it and iTunes is what they use to manage it. Palm know this. Anyone with half a clue knows this. The average computer user, even in the 21st century, is still not really capable of managing multiple media software packages. It's condescending and patronising to many to say it, but it's still true for the vast majority.

Maybe you should teach your mother and sister how to drag and drop files they purchase from itunes.

Thus, direct iTunes sync is the absolute best method for managing iTunes-purchased media.

It's not actually the best way - it's the most convenient way for a class of users.

Why do you think Apple are so jealously guarding it?

Because they wrote it?!?!?!?! They own the software and that's their right.

Palm are looking for a free ride - and need to look elsewhere.

RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 11/1/2009 8:37:38 AM # Q
Tim Carroll said:
You are posting comments on PalmInfocenter
Apple fanboys and embittered Palm haters (who pop up on PIC with depressing regularity)

Tim, I'm now an Apple fanboy and Palm hater because I have the boldness to disagree with you?

I may well have been posting to this site well before you; I've been quiet over the past year or two.
I have several Palm devices gathering dust in my cupboard, the first of which I had bought in 1997.

I've been through the agonies of the Palm to PalmSource/PalmOne split, the Cobalt fiasco and the agony of waiting for Palm to add wi-fi to a Palm OS phone.

I needed a solution and had no choice but to switch to Windows Mobile.
A few years later Palm has released an interesting device which has sparked my interest again.

Sadly this behaviour of forcing sync with iTunes and an apparent inability or unwillingness to come up with a media manager doesn't instil confidence in future support of my purchase from Palm.

There was a time when any handheld PDA was referred to as a Palm Pilot. Now the Palm name has only truly come back to the UK with the Pre.

Palm has to work harder than it ever did before if it's going to succeed in the cut throat mobile business. Palm won't achieve this by using a competitor's product who's unwilling to support Palm.

Palm has to make a decent system of its own. If Palm came up with a better system than iTunes then that will drive Pre sales even higher.
Persisting with hacking into a competitor's product implies they're unable to do so.

They've been casualties in the mobile phone war already - just ask Siemens and Benq.

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/1/2009 11:53:24 AM # Q
Tim, I'm now an Apple fanboy and Palm hater because I have the boldness to disagree with you?

No. Because every single comment I've seen you make here over the last few years has been - to a fault - unremittingly negative.

Again, I don't care whether or not the Internet disagrees with me.

And this is the crux of the problem

Palm won't achieve this by using a competitor's product who's unwilling to support Palm.

It's not *Palm* who are using iTunes. It is iTunes customers - one of the largest userbases in desktop media software - who are using iTunes. Palm is just letting them keep doing so and making it easier for them to switch devices, and that is Apple's problem. They don't want it to be easy for people to switch.

It is completely unnecessary for Palm to come up with their own system. Right now you have the choice between iTunes, Windows Media Player, Winamp, DoubleTwist, plain old drag-and-drop or any other software you like that supports syncing with USB mass storage (which is basically everything except iTunes). What on Earth could Palm bring to the table that hasn't already been done? What would be the point of them expending resources on developing and maintaining desktop media software of their own when computer users have all made their choices a long time ago?

This is Apple's problem, not Palm's. Apple are the one who are standing in people's way. Apple are the way going out of their way to break something that would otherwise work perfectly fine. It's their right, but anyone who supports them and isn't an Apple shareholder or executive is insane because you are essentially advocating for Apple to take something away.

What possible harm could Pre sync do to people who don't own Pres? Nothing. People drone on and on about how Apple doesn't want to have to support third-party players. But they don't have to! They already have clearly stated on their own support pages that they don't do this. Palm are the ones who have actually done the work to make iTunes sync with the Pre. It costs Apple nothing to let it continue.

Persisting with hacking into a competitor's product implies they're unable to do so.

How ridiculous. Of course they're able to do so. But it is a stupid waste of time and resources on their part, so they're not. Good on them. Which sync software that people choose to use with their mobile devices should be the user's choice, not Apple's.

Oh, and....


Are you referring to the same company, Apple, which published the open letter pleading for the music industry to remove DRM so music can be played on any device?

Yes. I am. Where's their letter pleading to the movie industry about video DRM, I wonder? Hmmmmm. Oh wait. Jobs has a seat on the board of Disney, doesn't he....

That letter was commendable, but it was nothing that many other influential people hadn't already been arguing for years and certainly not indicative of any wider attitude towards openness on Apple the company's part.

RE: Putting it Simply
abosco @ 11/1/2009 1:51:57 PM # M Q
This is Apple's problem, not Palm's. Apple are the one who are standing in people's way.

Oh Christ, Tim. You're completely wrong about this. Would it be wonderful for every companyto cooperate in wonderful harmony? Of course, but you have to realize this is business. It is reasonable for Apple to block direct syncing while still allowing access to the files or other companies to use. I repeat, PEOPLE STILL HAVE ACCESS TO THEIR CONTENT. That makes this 100% a non-issue.

And by the way, you have yet to comment on my original point. Look at what RIM did. It's quick, it's clean, it's simple, it's effective, and people clearly use it. This is a WAY better solution from all perspectives compared to Palm's current hack. Care to comment?

Yes. I am. Where's their letter pleading to the movie industry about video DRM, I wonder? Hmmmmm. Oh wait. Jobs has a seat on the board of Disney, doesn't he....

You're completely insane if you don't think Apple is in favor of removing DRM from movies. Seriously Tim, did you suddenly lose all common sense and become retarded?

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/1/2009 2:24:01 PM # Q
"Goose, I can't reach the eject handle! Eject, eject, eject!"

bosco:

Would it be wonderful for every companyto cooperate in wonderful harmony?

And here's where people seem to be missing the point. This is not about Palm and Apple cooperating in perfect harmony, holding hands and singing kum-ba-yah around a campfire whilst they share a Vegan meal...

This is about Apple denying its own customers an option. Your choice of hardware shouldn't matter when you go to sync with iTunes, a massive retail entity in its own right and the only place you can buy certain content.

Yes, you still have access to your content. See my earlier point about your average non tech-savvy user not knowing this, or where to find it. And that's a massive portion of the iTunes userbase, by the way: think how many people own iPods now.

As for the point about RIM's solution, you already know my answer to that. Palm don't need to and more importantly users don't need to waste time and effort designing and installing extra software just to enable something that is built into iTunes already.

You're completely insane if you don't think Apple is in favor of removing DRM from movies.

Maybe they are. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of that. Where's their public advocacy of it? Where's Jobs' catty open letter?

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 11/1/2009 2:36:26 PM # Q
RE: Putting it Simply
abosco @ 11/1/2009 2:46:56 PM # M Q
And here's where people seem to be missing the point. This is not about Palm and Apple cooperating in perfect harmony, holding hands and singing kum-ba-yah around a campfire whilst they share a Vegan meal...

These companies are COMPETITORS. What motivation does Apple have to hand Palm a free lunch? Palm has access to the database. However, they do NOT have permission to piggyback off of Apple's device sync solution.

And I'm calling shenanigans on your assessment of RIM's solution. Customers clearly use it, and it's easy. The only person who isn't advocating for this is you, since you're clearly showing your true colors as a blatant Palm fanboy.

Palm has to develop their own sync solution. Apple is not allowing them a free ride off of their hard work. End of story.

By the way, Styletap was pro-consumer and choice, but Palm shutting it down on Windows Mobile was clearly anti-consumer. How do you feel about that?

RE: Putting it Simply
nastebu @ 11/1/2009 2:56:33 PM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
This is Apple's problem, not Palm's. Apple are the one who are standing in people's way. Apple are the way going out of their way to break something that would otherwise work perfectly fine. It's their right, but anyone who supports them and isn't an Apple shareholder or executive is insane because you are essentially advocating for Apple to take something away.

Even if I agreed with you that Apple are acting like assholes, it's not *Apple's* problem if *Palm's* devices don't sync. It might be Apple's fault, but it's Palm's problem when Apple can break the syncing anytime they want. Regardless of the right or wrong of it, this seems like a losing proposition for Palm to follow, unless:

1.) at some relatively soon point they really can "win" and force Apple to accept the Pre syncing with iTunes.

2.) they're relying on this hack as a temporary measure and developing a permanent, non-Apple's-good-will-dependent, media sync measure in the near future.

It might be fun to flip the bird to the big bad fruity computer company, but it really doesn't help you gain customers, and really, in the end doesn't substituted for a good media sync solution.

I just don't see how this fight is good for Palm.

RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 11/1/2009 3:06:46 PM # Q
It's not *Palm* who are using iTunes.

Hahahahaha - talk about splitting hairs.

Palm are the ones advertising itunes compatibility - they're attempting to use it to their advantage - without the cooperation of the company who owns itunes.

It is iTunes customers - one of the largest userbases in desktop media software - who are using iTunes. Palm is just letting them keep doing so and making it easier for them to switch devices, and that is Apple's problem. They don't want it to be easy for people to switch.

What nonsense is this? People can switch as easily as they like - they just have to stop using itunes. Apple's software, apple's rules.

If Palm doesn't like it, perhaps they should write their own version of itunes.


It is completely unnecessary for Palm to come up with their own system. Right now you have the choice between iTunes, Windows Media Player, Winamp, DoubleTwist, plain old drag-and-drop or any other software you like that supports syncing with USB mass storage (which is basically everything except iTunes). What on Earth could Palm bring to the table that hasn't already been done? What would be the point of them expending resources on developing and maintaining desktop media software of their own when computer users have all made their choices a long time ago?

If that's the case, then why do they persist going after itunes? Because itunes has two things Palm lacks: mindshare and marketshare.

This is Apple's problem, not Palm's.

It's Palm's problem because Palm are continuing to push this issue. The Pre's not big news anymore, so they need something to keep Palm in the news.

It costs Apple nothing to let it continue.

So Nostradamus, you know every product which Apple is going to release in the next x years? Doubtful. You don't know what direction Apple will take itunes in; Apple doesn't want nor need to be shackled to Palm's need for itunes compatibility.

If Palm wants access to itunes, why don't they license access?

How ridiculous. Of course they're able to do so. But it is a stupid waste of time and resources on their part, so they're not. Good on them. Which sync software that people choose to use with their mobile devices should be the user's choice, not Apple's.

Apple makes the software; their rules. If Palm doesn't like it, they need to be industrious; not lazy.


RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/1/2009 5:20:05 PM # Q
Bosco:

By the way, Styletap was pro-consumer and choice, but Palm shutting it down on Windows Mobile was clearly anti-consumer. How do you feel about that?

You've brought this up before... like i said last time, I wasn't around when that was going on. Palm took Styletap to court, didn't they? That's how this kinda thing should be dealt with. If Palm had instead gone and somehow deliberately sabotaged PalmOS so that it couldn't be emulated then that would be crossing the line and I'd decry that.

You keep saying Palm need to develop their own solution. Why should they? This race is going to be over very soon. Apple have chosen to use the USB ID as their lockout method, which is easily spoofed. Once Palm are completely emulating an iPod USB in every way, Apple's only option (I believe) is going to be issuing updates to the firmware of every iPod model that still talks to iTunes, which contains some kind of proprietary authentication that Palm can't easily get at. Are they really going to go to all that trouble just to stop the users of their own software syncing with other devices?

Palm seem to be betting that they won't. I don't really think they will either, it'd be a heck of an effort for very little gain. We'll see, anyway.

nastebu

I just don't see how this fight is good for Palm.

You don't see how having a seamless direct sync with one of (if not the most) the world's most popular desktop media solutions is of benefit? Man, if I was selling a smartphone nowadays, i'd be doing exactly what Palm is doing. If Apple eventually find a way to block it permanently so be it, but in the meantime I'd want all those millions of iTunes customers out there to have the most seamless sync possible - and that means direct with iTunes and not via my own middleman.

RE: Putting it Simply
DarthRepublican @ 11/1/2009 5:41:23 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:

don't let hatred blind you.

Could ya' vague that up for us a bit?
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

RE: Putting it Simply
abosco @ 11/1/2009 6:00:18 PM # M Q
Lawyers issued a cease & desist to the developers of Styletap. But... But... Palm is some champion of choice and freedom! How could they do that? Or how about the time Palm went around and formally threatened Palm forums and fan sites with "Palm" in the name, including Palm Infocenter? Go ahead and ask Ryan about that one.

Your choice company is as crooked and profit-seeking as all of the other publicly traded companies are.

You keep saying Palm need to develop their own solution. Why should they?

Because their current solution is flaky. Developing their own sync program would be a functional, permanent solution. I really don't understand how you can look at the benefits and drawbacks of the current situation and draw the conclusion that Palm is making the best deision.

Oh wait, yes, I do understand. Your opinion is, "Yeah! Stick it to Apple!" and nothing more. That's why you support Palm in this useless fight while nearly everyone else is on the other side.

RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 11/1/2009 6:11:05 PM # Q
How true - if the roles were reversed, he'd be mercilessly defending Palm for locking out Apple.
RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 11/1/2009 6:41:09 PM # Q

TealOS Forced Into Early Retirement

A TealPoint rep has confirmed the news. He states that Palm asked them to stop distributing the program, claiming infringement, but refused to go into any specific details. TealPoint suggested numerous alternatives but was told none were acceptable. Under polite but firm pressure, TealPoint agreed to remove the program to preserve an agreeable relationship with Palm.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/7000/tealos-forced-into-early-retirement/


RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/1/2009 8:45:02 PM # Q
Bosco:
Your choice company is as crooked and profit-seeking as all of the other publicly traded companies are.... Oh wait, yes, I do understand. Your opinion is, "Yeah! Stick it to Apple!" and nothing more. That's why you support Palm in this useless fight while nearly everyone else is on the other side.

Haven't I made it clear yet? I am not on Palm's side here. I am and always have been on the user's side. 'cause that's what I am. A user. And in this particular case, Palm has sided with me, not the other way around.

You know I don't particularly like Apple. This issue is just one example of the many, many reasons why I'll never use their products where I can avoid it. My opinion is not "stick it to Apple", although I'm not loathe to admit I love it whenever anyone does so.

My opinion is "stick up for the user and the consumer". Palm may only be an ally of convenience in this particular instance, but since they're standing up for the right thing, I see no reason not to support them.

Oh... and "everyone else"? I count

*ChiA, notorious bitter Palm guy who hasn't had a good word to say about them in years;
*You, nastebu, gmayhak, and the troll-bot: iPhone owners all (hanging out at PIC, for some bizarre reason);
*Gekko, who just loves to shit-stir. (Which makes the Lizardman an honorary Australian, whether he realises it or not.)

But again. I couldn't give a toss whether or not the entire world disagreed with me. 'Cause they'd be wrong, and I would still be right. :p

RE: Putting it Simply
ssid12 @ 11/2/2009 12:37:52 AM # Q
Read this discussion thread with interest... and I have to say I agree with Tim on this one. Apple is officially the Worlds no.1 internet music store. Its a convenient one stop shop for music and movies. Thinking of myself as a consumer, if I want to get my music off it then I prefer to use the easiest method possible whatever device I use. If Palm decides to create a loophole to sync the Pre with iTunes then great! As a user I don't really care how its done, as long as its easy and convenient for ME. IF what Palm is doing is illegal then Apple should sue them and get it over with....

But they are NOT. That lack of action speaks volumes to me. It suggests that Apple doesn't think it can win. So if I owned a Pre and I used iTunes as my main source of music downloads then I think it would be a nice cool feature for me to sync directly and I would thank Palm for sorting this out.

Apple going out of its way to deliberately block the Pre is annoying, but nothing more than that. I actually think it makes Apple look bad rather than Palm. In a perfect world, Palm would create a desktop sync solution with iTunes, but guess what... everytime iTunes was updated I am sure the desktop solution would have to be updated so we would be back to this game but this time according to Jac@ss and co. it would be legit....
only Palm would have to pour a lot nore resources into it. Palm is using the easiest path to get things done on their limited resources, that is all.

As a consumer I am the winner with more choice and that is good in my book.

RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 11/2/2009 4:02:52 AM # Q
Haven't I made it clear yet? I am not on Palm's side here. I am and always have been on the user's side. 'cause that's what I am. A user. And in this particular case, Palm has sided with me, not the other way around.

No; Palm is siding with Palm - as their interest is to gain users.

You know I don't particularly like Apple.

So you're biased - there's a shock! :) Impartiality never comes into play.

My opinion is "stick up for the user and the consumer". Palm may only be an ally of convenience in this particular instance, but since they're standing up for the right thing, I see no reason not to support them.

Perhaps because they're way of going about this is - oh I don't know - WRONG?

If Palm were on a crusade for the user (which they aren't), then why don't they petition every music store out there (except itunes) to see if they can be allowed to sync with them?

This isn't some holy war or crusade for interoperability. They are looking for a quick fix to siphon away users to pump up the Pre.

But again. I couldn't give a toss whether or not the entire world disagreed with me. 'Cause they'd be wrong, and I would still be right.

Famous last words.

RE: Putting it Simply
nastebu @ 11/2/2009 5:19:14 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
*You, nastebu, gmayhak, and the troll-bot: iPhone owners all (hanging out at PIC, for some bizarre reason);

Personally, I hang around PIC hoping for a glimpse of Tim's hot sister.

RE: Putting it Simply
abosco @ 11/2/2009 6:06:25 AM # M Q
^^^ Shit, I guess I really let the cat out of the bag on that one.

In a perfect world, Palm would create a desktop sync solution with iTunes, but guess what... everytime iTunes was updated I am sure the desktop solution would have to be updated so we would be back to this game

No they wouldn't. The simple sync program that Palm would have to create would access documented, open XML files. Basically, it would be pulling it's music library from the same place that iTunes does. In this way, it operates completely independently of iTunes, but still accesses its database. It is set up like this on purpose for third party companies to access.

Unfortunately, Palm was pressed for time and resources, and they had intricate knowledge of how iTunes worked from the inside since they apparently only employ former Apple workers at Palm HQ, so they chose to backdoor it.

If you read (relatively) neutral news sites, you'll see that sentiment has turned against Palm in this issue because it is simply causing inconsistency. Apple has already shown they won't change course. Palm needs to follow RIM's lead and develop their own sync soluion. There is literally no argument against this. It's undeniably the best solution.

RE: Putting it Simply
Jamin @ 11/2/2009 6:19:11 AM # Q
Tim, you're really missing the point on this one.

Apple doesn't think of themselves as a music company.

The way they look at it, iTunes exists so that Apple can sell more iPods and iPhones. The iTMS is just an extension of that.

If they thought like a music company, they'd be taking a bigger cut of the music sales on the front end.

If they thought like a music company, they'd be subsidizing the iPods to sell the music.

Instead, it's the other way around.

And Palm is shooting their own foot. Apple doesn't want other devices linking iTunes because iTunes integration is a major selling point of their iPods and iPhones. There is no way Apple would hand that off to a competitor.

Apple opened up the database, that is as far as they are willing to go.

RE: Putting it Simply
gmayhak @ 11/2/2009 6:36:23 AM # Q

Tim Carroll wrote:
*You, nastebu, gmayhak, and the troll-bot: iPhone owners all (hanging out at PIC, for some bizarre reason);

It's not bizarre and I don't have an iPhone. I have an iPod touch 1st generation, a Centro, a Lifedrive, a Tx, a m505, a couple Tungsten t, a palm pilot, a palm III, a work pad, a Visor and a dozen Vx.
The Centro was the last good thing to come out of Palm!

Gary

Tech Center Labs

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/2/2009 2:42:22 PM # Q
Jamin:
Tim, you're really missing the point on this one. Apple doesn't think of themselves as a music company...

I'm not missing that point. I get it. Really. I do. :)

The point that I've been making (ad nauseum) is that from the consumers/user's point-of-view, it doesn't actually matter how Apple see themselves. With such massive success as they've seen with the iTunes Music Store come certain responsibilities to consumers. Whether they like it or not, they are now the biggest music retailer in the US and one of the biggest in the world, and I believe that continuing to tie the software used to purchase that music to their own hardware line is an underhanded tactic ill-befitting the market leader.

Even worse, however, is deliberately breaking someone else's compatibility. That for me is truly beyond the pale, and seems incredibly disrespectful to any iTunes Store customer that might want to use different hardware. Personally, I cannot abide such behaviour from any corporation.

RE: Putting it Simply
mikecane @ 11/2/2009 3:37:44 PM # Q
Can your damned analogies and flush most these words down the toilet.

Apple is on the *wrong side of history* here.

iTunes is not simply a gateway to their damned store, it is desktop *organizational* software. As such, it should sync with any damned thing.

RE: Putting it Simply
e_tellurian @ 11/2/2009 4:22:41 PM # Q
My understanding is that Palm can access the iTunes data base just not through Apple. Is that correct?

Peace,

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Putting it Simply
gmayhak @ 11/2/2009 4:27:13 PM # Q
mikecane @ 11/2/2009 3:37:44 PM #
Can your damned analogies and flush most these words down the toilet.
Apple is on the *wrong side of history* here.

iTunes is not simply a gateway to their damned store, it is desktop *organizational* software. As such, it should sync with any damned thing.

Mike, It's THEIR *organizational* software for THEIR hardware. You sound like the kids on the app store thinking everything should be free for everyone, not giving a shit how much effort someone else has put into it.

Gary
Tech Center Labs

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 11/2/2009 4:27:47 PM # Q

does the we-com crew support an open environment which allow other vendors equal access to e-com solutions?
RE: Putting it Simply
e_tellurian @ 11/2/2009 4:42:26 PM # Q
The financial networks used to offer their own hardware to approve transaction now the hardware is provided by third party though third party has limited access to the FI data base to approve transactions.

The FI are clearing houses for transactions. They do not provide hardware as they used to.

i see iTunes as a data base anyone can access with their own hardware. All Palm needs to someone to make the connection to ITunes possible. An opportunity to help the Palm customer and Palm now exists.

Peace,

E-T

e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 11/2/2009 7:19:07 PM # Q
every single comment I've seen you make here over the last few years has been - to a fault - unremittingly negative.
ChiA, notorious bitter Palm guy who hasn't had a good word to say about them in years;

Sweeping statement but up until recently Palm's direction has been quite negative.

The past ten years we've gone from a company dominating the handheld market and acquired the brilliant Treo design smartphone, to a company which sold off its prized asset, the Palm OS and eventually had to be bailed out financially in order to survive.

Palm was one the earliest and most prolific sellers of smartphones at a time when most of its competitors didn't even have smartphones to offer. Several years later and companies have come from nothing to ship more smartphones per quarter than Palm ever shipped in a year: Who'd heard of HTC ten years ago or an iPhone five years back?

So forgive me if I sounded a little negative.

For the record, and to keep you smiling, I'm quite happy, even impressed by what Palm has achieved with bringing the Pre to market.

Palm needs iTunes otherwise it'll wouldn't be wasting time getting the Pre to sync with it.
Surely it's better from a reliability perspective to simply offer a dependable, reliable solution?

I wonder if Palm have approached the other stores to make a seamless music buying experience?
Who knows, it may be a case that Apple is more annoyed by the way Palm is going about syncing, rather than the ability to sync. If Palm officially approached Apple, maybe they'll come to a common agreement.

A little dose of positivity just for you Tim. Now I hope you'd calm down as we seem to have rattled you here!

RE: Putting it Simply
jca666us @ 11/2/2009 7:26:12 PM # Q
twofer:

#1:

Even worse, however, is deliberately breaking someone else's compatibility.

It's not compatible if it breaks every time Apple updates itunes. :)

Compatibility can be gotten via syncing with itunes xml data - anything else is a half-assed hack that deserves to break.

That for me is truly beyond the pale, and seems incredibly disrespectful to any iTunes Store customer that might want to use different hardware.

Any hardware can be used with any non-drm'ed files purchased via itunes. What's disrespectful is your lack of understanding.

#2

iTunes is not simply a gateway to their damned store, it is desktop *organizational* software. As such, it should sync with any damned thing.

When was itunes open source? It's owned by Apple and Apple dictates what it syncs with. Palm doesn't wish to abide by the rules, then Palm's users must suffer the consequences.

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/2/2009 7:44:14 PM # Q
ChiA:
Now I hope you'd calm down as we seem to have rattled you here!

No, you really haven't. I'm just amazed that anyone who claims not to be a fanboy would support abitrary technological lockouts that have no good reason to exist.

RE: Putting it Simply
Jamin @ 11/3/2009 5:15:37 AM # Q
The point that I've been making (ad nauseum) is that from the consumers/user's point-of-view, it doesn't actually matter how Apple see themselves. With such massive success as they've seen with the iTunes Music Store come certain responsibilities to consumers. Whether they like it or not, they are now the biggest music retailer in the US and one of the biggest in the world, and I believe that continuing to tie the software used to purchase that music to their own hardware line is an underhanded tactic ill-befitting the market leader.

The only people that Apple has responsibilities to is it's shareholders. Just like any other company, it would shed those customers in a second if it could deliver more to the shareholders by doing so.

Now, with that in mind, Apple's strategy has been to deliver an integrated solution to it's customers. But even there, Apple would rather take a 20% margin on an iPod or more than a 10% margin on a few dollars for the songs or albums.

Most hardware or consumer electronic companies would kill for a 20% margin. Apple delivers it without sweating.

Songs are secondary. Apple really wants you to buy an iPod.

Besides opening up the complete back end with the database, let's not forget that no one before Apple could sell music online profitably.

I'm a Palm guy from way back, I still use a TX. But if Palm has to make a parasite in order to work, it makes me wonder about what else they'll spoof when they see the opportunity. It also makes me wonder about their customers left in the lurch. Not to mention their stockholders who keep losing money.

RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 11/3/2009 5:20:24 AM # Q
No, you really haven't. I'm just amazed that anyone who claims not to be a fanboy..

I've got a Win Mob 6.1 smartphone, Vista and Linux machines; I think you're much more a Palm fanboy than I an Apple.

We've rattled you enough for you to start name calling (fanboy, troll-bot etc)
whilst you evade answering:

- whether Palm formally approached Apple to create iTunes sync?
- why Palm can't or won't make a "seamless store and sync experience" of their own?
Nokia after all, has the Nokia Music Store.

abitrary technological lockouts that have no good reason to exist

Apple feels there's good enough reason and Apple unlike Palm, put the effort into the purchase, ownership and maintenance of iTunes. Note the current update added new features to Apple's products.

Palm wants all the benefit of iTunes without making any contribution towards it.

RE: Putting it Simply Again
ChiA @ 11/3/2009 5:31:29 AM # Q
abitrary technological lockouts that have no good reason to exist

Neither Palm nor Apple are charities but Palm wants free access to Apple's software so it can sell a Palm Pre instead of an Apple iPhone.

that sounds a good enough reason for a lock out - technological or not.

RE: Putting it Simply
mikecane @ 11/3/2009 10:09:19 AM # Q
>>>Mike, It's THEIR *organizational* software for THEIR hardware.

Imbecile. It runs on that sync whore everyone knows as a PC. Therefore it should spread its legs -- wide.

RE: Putting it Simply
e_tellurian @ 11/3/2009 11:54:24 AM # Q
To my understanding is iTunes is open to all then all Palm needs to do is create the link rather than going through Apples link to get to iTunes.

There seems to be an opportunity to have iTunes as a central music data base that anyone can access. How much would it cost to make the access point for the Palm Pre? Is this cheaper than the patches caused by a vendor that wants iTunes accessed just not through their work? Is Apple pushing Palm to innovate a solution? Does the solution help Palm customers and Palm?

Any thoughts?

Peace,

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Putting it Simply
gmayhak @ 11/3/2009 12:04:14 PM # Q
mikecane @ 11/3/2009 10:09:19 AM #
>>>Mike, It's THEIR *organizational* software for THEIR hardware.
Imbecile. It runs on that sync whore everyone knows as a PC. Therefore it should spread its legs -- wide.

no, dipshit, it's still for THEIR hardware, iPods.
Tech Center Labs

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 11/3/2009 1:30:05 PM # Q

Yes all this sounds great, sound is good for we-com interaction.

Now we must focus on moving sound into positive change that we can all bank on to offer more interactive choices with people that want to be part of a democratically built we-com network.

We will always have people that choose a hat to earn a living that is their choice. All we want is to build with people that value hats on their heads too with better paying jobs that help pay for our advanced economies with all our choices.

We can help the inverted hat people too without giving up all our choices ... a win-win. Inverted hat people have contributed to our thoughts and we must share the wealth with them too. They do not seem to want drugs they seem to want access to knowledge in their language or access to the knowledge in other languages.

If we can create we-com we can find solutions to homelessness too win-win. Yes that will put homeless shelters out of business, the only business one would be happy to see closed. If people have a home the moon become a goal and a destination where one could choose to interact with a we-com virtual wallet too.

0 is only of value in a weightless environment. Our freedom to choose is free because people have made tough choices in our past. The price of freedom is priceless people created freedom; people will defend freedom by innovating thoughtfully and at times selflessly (ffffff for free).

RE: Putting it Simply
BaalthazaaR @ 11/4/2009 6:46:16 AM # Q
Good Lord, the lizardman has lost it.
RE: Putting it Simply
DarthRepublican @ 11/4/2009 9:25:05 AM # Q
BaalthazaaR wrote:
Good Lord, the lizardman has lost it.

There's a fine line between parody and lunacy.
Palm Apologist
Shouting down the PIC Faithful Since 2009
Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX->Palm Pre
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1->Palm Pre
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

RE: Putting it Simply
e_tellurian @ 11/4/2009 1:49:39 PM # Q
:-(lol)

Last time i went off topic in a designated forum for off topic discussion i got banned.

This topic seems to be about working together enhancing the digital music world with solutions.

As you know i am more than happy to discuss we-com interaction just without offending anyone.

Peace,

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/5/2009 5:20:19 PM # Q
Oh, for Pete's sake. I hate having to do this. The point-for-point internet rebuttal is the most boring reading material....

We've rattled you enough for you to start name calling (fanboy, troll-bot etc)

I've been calling you Apple-defending idiots names forever, and not just in this thread. Why? Because you're, well, idiots, as evidenced by questions like these....

- whether Palm formally approached Apple to create iTunes sync?

Of course they didn't, because (1) the answer would have been "no", and (2) they don't have to. Apple are using USB for iTunes sync - an open standard - and they give the software away for free to anyone who wants it. It's the user's choice whether or not they wish to sync their Pre with iTunes. Not Apple's, and not Palm's.

- why Palm can't or won't make a "seamless store and sync experience" of their own?
Nokia after all, has the Nokia Music Store.

Nokia is a technological giant with billions in the bank which it can afford to waste on ridiculously stupid ventures like trying to compete with one of the world's largest music retailers with their own proprietary solution.

Palm, on the other hand, has clearly stated on multiple occasions that their goal with webOS sync is to allow the user to sync with whatever they want. The "seamless sync experience" is called Synergy, and it aggregates all your information on your mobile device no matter where it came from. Hence you can use iTunes, or Windows Media Player, or Winamp, or whatever the hell you want to manage your music.

Apple feels there's good enough reason and Apple unlike Palm, put the effort into the purchase, ownership and maintenance of iTunes. Note the current update added new features to Apple's products.

Palm wants all the benefit of iTunes without making any contribution towards it.

Again, you totally miss the point. This is not about Palm enjoying the benefits of iTunes sync. This is about the users deciding which software they want to use. Palm is just giving them the option, and they would be foolish to ignore iTunes which is massively popular, and they would be foolish to waste resources they don't have on developing an iTunes sync client they don't need to and more to the point, shouldn't have to

It really comes down to this.

*Palm is giving iTunes customers another choice.
*Apple are taking it away.

Putting it simply.


RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 11/5/2009 5:22:16 PM # Q

who cares? where's your Pre review?
RE: Putting it Simply
Jamin @ 11/6/2009 3:01:47 PM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:

It really comes down to this.

*Palm is giving iTunes customers another choice.
*Apple are taking it away.

Putting it simply.

Umm, not exactly. Have you read the iTunes EULA?

Bottom line, if you don't play by Apple's rules, they don't want you in the sandbox.

That's pretty much STANDARD PRACTICE in the industry. They don't give you the software, they give you a license to use the software under their terms.

Not only is Palm spoofing the USB connection, but they are intentionally telling their customers to break the iTunes EULA.

No software company can afford to overlook that.


RE: Putting it Simply
ChiA @ 11/6/2009 10:40:13 PM # Q
idiots names forever, and not just in this thread. Why? Because you're, well, idiots, as evidenced by questions like these....

Calling people names doesn't win arguments.
It's not idiotic for Palm to ask. There's the old adage, if at first you don't succeed, try and try again. Apple didn't get approval for selling music online when it first approached the music publishers. Palm's behaviour is confrontational and makes it less likely Apple will concede other devices syncing directly with iTunes.

Nokia can afford to waste on ridiculously stupid ventures like trying to compete with one of the world's largest music retailers with their own proprietary solution.

Apple weren't the first to sell music online (I think it was Realnetworks); therefore someone was once a larger music retailer before Apple. Apple created it's own offering and consumers have since decided it was what they wanted.

Rivals are free to come up with their own alternatives.

So far the most consumers have decided there's nothing better than the iTunes store.
iTunes will fade away once consumers decide an alternative is better.

Apple are using USB for iTunes sync - an open standard -

DON'T confuse the issue - USB is an open standard defining how hardware should communicate with computers;
USB doesn't define how hardware should sync music with software..

You're missing the point Tim, Palm is offering a feature which it's not in a position to give with certainty, reliability or authority.

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/7/2009 4:29:41 PM # Q
Umm, not exactly. Have you read the iTunes EULA?

Bottom line, if you don't play by Apple's rules, they don't want you in the sandbox.

That's pretty much STANDARD PRACTICE in the industry. They don't give you the software, they give you a license to use the software under their terms.

Not only is Palm spoofing the USB connection, but they are intentionally telling their customers to break the iTunes EULA.

Who cares? EULA's are bullshit, frankly. Nobody ever reads them or cares what is contained within. And I highly doubt Apple are going to start suing people for syncing with a Pre...

And again. Who cares what Apple wants? This is about what users want.

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/7/2009 4:33:54 PM # Q
You're missing the point Tim, Palm is offering a feature which it's not in a position to give with certainty, reliability or authority.

We'll see what happens with the next few rounds of this battle. If Apple are just using USB blocks, then pretty soon they'll run out of things to check - if they haven't already. At that point, sync is pretty much guaranteed... unless Apple decide to start issuing firmware updates.

And if they do? Good for them, they win and prove once again that they're the most controlling, paranoid, draconian company in the tech biz. Yay Apple! Three cheers for proprietary standards and lockouts! :/

RE: Putting it Simply
abosco @ 11/7/2009 6:20:12 PM # Q
How ironic that Palm, the company that invented the handheld conduit, can't be bothered to make one now.

Nevermind the fact that it would solve the whole issue. No, that's fine, Tim. Keep going, you're doing great.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/7/2009 6:59:49 PM # Q
I just think that there are principles worth sticking up for, and open, free communication between hardware and software is definitely one of them.

If Palm do wind up getting permanently blocked, they'll surely make their own sync client. iTunes is too big to ignore. But why settle for second-best unless you absolutely have to?

RE: Putting it Simply
Jamin @ 11/8/2009 6:48:21 AM # Q
Who cares? EULA's are bullshit, frankly. Nobody ever reads them or cares what is contained within. And I highly doubt Apple are going to start suing people for syncing with a Pre...

And again. Who cares what Apple wants? This is about what users want.

Except that the entire multibillion dollar software industry is based on licensing software, not selling it.

Without those licenses, there is no way to make a profit. Or even to cover costs. And that means no iTunes Store, period.

Without the iTunes EULA, there is no iTunes Store EULA. And without that, there is no way the record labels will provide content. They had a hard enough time giving up DRM.

It's about mutual exchange. The users get something unique from Apple, Apple makes a profit on hardware. Unless Apple makes a profit on their terms, there's no reason for it to stay in business. Unless Apple provides something unique for the price, there is no reason for the customers to keep using iTunes.

Apple isn't draconian, they've opened up everything except the iTunes software itself and the iTunes conduits. They've even documented how to access the iTunes library. Try finding another tech company that did that willingly.

To keep it's shareholders happy, Apple has to make a profit. To make a profit, Apple has to sell something that customers want. To keep the iTunes Store open, Apple has to accept the conditions from the record labels.

Again, before Apple opened the iTunes Store, no one was selling music profitably online. Selling yes, but the companies were losing money on each sale. You demand that Apple do what you want, but you forget, before Apple, no one COULD do it. And today, the companies that are successfully selling music online are using Apple's model to do it. DRM got dropped not because of the letter from Jobs, but because the record labels wanted to undersell Apple through other channels.

If it were ANY other company that had pulled this off, I'd tell you the same thing only with their name instead of Apple.

The one thing that Apple has said is that it doesn't want any non-Apple devices syncing through iTunes. It hasn't sealed the library in some proprietary format. It hasn't done an iPod authentication code.

As I see it, the only reason Apple has to take a more closed architecture with iTunes is Palm.

RE: Putting it Simply
Tim Carroll @ 11/8/2009 3:20:08 PM # Q
You miss my point on EULAs. I realise that for rubbish legalistic reasons, companies are forced to include these worthless things with software. My point is that 99.99999% of users never read them and don't care about them. If they have that software installed on their machine, they consider it theirs to do with as they please, as with any physical good they'd purchase from a bricks n mortar store - a view I happen to hold myself.

Yes, Apple did good things for the sale of music online. (I hope one day they do the same for video.) I'll gladly acknowledge that. But they are now running one of the world's biggest retail music stores, and they don't allow access to the built-in sync client in order to boost sales of their own hardware line. That's not a "lock-in", but it is a sleazy tactic nonetheless and one I cannot support. Deliberately breaking compatibility is far, far worse.

You should have realised by now I'm not gonna budge from this position. Can we kill this thread now please? I'm sure it'll crop up again when the sync is re-enabled... we can rehash everything again then ad nauseum.

RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 11/8/2009 3:25:28 PM # Q

i wonder if the U.S. government will go after Apple the way they did MSFT back in the day? music monopoly threat with iTunes?

with Al Gore on the Board? with BHO in the Oval Office?

what say you Apple-loving pablum-puking liberals out there?

RE: Putting it Simply
abosco @ 11/8/2009 5:31:01 PM # Q
So long as there is no DRM on the music, and the music can be put on other devices, then there is no issue.

Meanwhile, this is such a moot point. Palm is hardly selling any hardware right now. It's a classic case of Caesar fiddling as Rome burns. It clearly looks like iPhone and Android have some serious momentum in the industry, and RIM, Palm, Nokia, and Microsoft are all being marginalized.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

Has RIM become the AOL of the handset market?
Gekko @ 11/8/2009 5:46:08 PM # Q

Has RIM become the AOL of the handset market?

November 6, 2009
* Analysis by: GLG Expert Contributor
* Analysis of: Blackberry Offers Low-Hanging Fruit (WSJ Thursday, 11/5/2009)
* Published at: wsj.com

Summary

The release of the Motorola's Droid Smartphone was predicted to impact Apple's iPhone business. This article points out that it is Research in Motion ("RIM's") Blackberry business that is threatened.

The article provides facts and figures on the iPhone, Android devices on impact on RIM's Blackberry business and market share. And predicts a continuing revenue decline.
Analysis

The financial numbers are further evidence of what has been happening in the Smartphone market in the last year. RIM, who once was the innovator in handset market, is not keeping up with the products released by Apple, Palm and the Android developers. And it is now impacting RIM's market share and possibly its revenue stream.

One must wonder is going on at RIM. It is in a reactive mode and trying to catch up.

The Blackberry Storm was intended to be RIM's competitor to Apple's iPhone. The initial release of the Storm was not well received in the marketplace. The product was unstaple and got poor reviews. While RIM has addressed the issues, it lost time and creditability.

Apple did a tremendous job in releasing the iPhone to market. It was Apple's first try at creating a cell phone. I expected growing pains in creating a mature handset. A risky venture that could impact Apple's reputation for developing quality products. While there were issues, Apple addressed them quickly, without damage to its reputation.

Added to this is Apple's strategy in developing and releasing iPhone applications. It was innovative and well implemented. Apple provides a simple iPhone development toolkit, developer's program and application store. While there are issues to iron out with the developer's program, there are currently about 100,000 applications developed for the iPhone to date (up from 35,000 in April).

In comparison, RIM's Blackberry development program is complex, reactive and playing catch up with Apple. RIM offers three different development platforms for different skill levels, plus a developer's program and application store. Currently they offer approximately 5000 applications.

Add to the equation, Palm's participation in this marketplace and the emergence of the Android consortium. It shows a dynamic and crowded market that needs to get settled.

RIM can respond and recover to the threats to its business. But we have not seen it to date.

http://www.glgroup.com/News/Has-RIM-become-the-AOL-of-the-handset-market--44660.html


RE: Putting it Simply
Gekko @ 11/8/2009 5:49:54 PM # Q
RE: Putting it Simply
Jamin @ 11/9/2009 5:01:01 AM # Q
Tim Carroll wrote:
You miss my point on EULAs. I realise that for rubbish legalistic reasons, companies are forced to include these worthless things with software. My point is that 99.99999% of users never read them and don't care about them. If they have that software installed on their machine, they consider it theirs to do with as they please, as with any physical good they'd purchase from a bricks n mortar store - a view I happen to hold myself.

*shrugs* It's not a physical item. Profitability depends on copyright and those pesky EULAs. You may not like it, but it is a contract. Blame Bill Gates and his hired gun lawyers for making the software industry possible.

Yes, Apple did good things for the sale of music online. (I hope one day they do the same for video.) I'll gladly acknowledge that. But they are now running one of the world's biggest retail music stores, and they don't allow access to the built-in sync client in order to boost sales of their own hardware line. That's not a "lock-in", but it is a sleazy tactic nonetheless and one I cannot support. Deliberately breaking compatibility is far, far worse.

Apple never promised to open it up. The size of the store has nothing to do with it. If Apple provides what MOST people want, that is what makes the store "bigger." Palm took it on themselves to pry it open. At best, that's impolite. At worst that is theft. Either way, it puts Palm on the shady side of the ethics line.

You should have realised by now I'm not gonna budge from this position. Can we kill this thread now please? I'm sure it'll crop up again when the sync is re-enabled... we can rehash everything again then ad nauseum.

Yep, that was obvious about thirty or forty posts back. I just wanted to clarify some things about business practices.

I'm playing to the audience, man. Sometimes that's the best you can do.

Reply to this comment

Keep Trying

jbeans @ 11/5/2009 12:20:21 PM # Q
All of the above having been said...
I like being able to sync with iTunes, because I have a bunch of tunes there, and it's convenient to keep using it. I'm fine with BOTH of the following:
1. Apple can try to prevent Palm from spoofing
2. Palm can keep trying to spoof.
I hope #2 is successful, but I understand that that it may at some point become impractical. The engineer in me gives the advantage to Palm, however, because the Pre's software is easier to patch (I think) than an iPod. (Anybody know if iTunes can update the software on the iPod?)
By the way, I personally just stopped upgrading iTunes a while back. So my compatibility never broke. Unfortunately, my wife reflexively upgrades her iTunes when it asks, and now her Pre won't sync to her laptop...
John Beans
Treo 600
Real-time Exchange Email via GoodLink
RE: Keep Trying
gmayhak @ 11/5/2009 6:36:38 PM # Q
"It really comes down to this.
*Palm is giving iTunes customers another choice.
*Apple are taking it away".

Tim, you're trying to sell bullshit and I don't think anyone is buying it. Palm has no right to GIVE something that doesn't belong to them! iTunes was developed by Apple, not Palm. iTunes belongs to Apple, not Palm. iTunes is a strategic part of Apples iPod marketing strategy.
I've supported Palm and the the Palm community for years but this kind of crap puts the Palm we all knew to shame. It's all about the x-Apple guys trying to stick it in the ass of their x-employer.

Gary
Tech Center Labs

RE: Keep Trying
Tim Carroll @ 11/5/2009 11:39:24 PM # Q
iTunes belongs to Apple, not Palm.

No. A copy of iTunes belongs to the person who's using it, and they should be free to sync whatever the hell they want with it.

RE: Keep Trying
alanh @ 11/6/2009 2:16:45 PM # Q
IMO: Apple is stupid for locking consumers out of syncing with whatever they want to. Palm is stupid for coming up with a sync solution that relies on a proprietary third-party standard that can be broken by that party's whim.

I am annoyed with _both_ companies, but as someone in a family with a Pre, an iPod, and an iPhone, I am /more/ annoyed with Apple. Philosophically, I prefer the idea working to open up things to more uses over working to keep things closed down and limited.

Sure, it's within Apple's rights to update their software however they want to, but spending resources to break the Pre sync just strikes me as childish and spiteful. I want a music sync solution "just works" and it does "just work" until the next time that Apple decides to break it.

Does anyone here know if the Blackberry Media Sync solution breaks with iTunes updates?
-alan

RE: The customer is always first ... they are the purpose.
e_tellurian @ 11/7/2009 2:46:01 PM # Q
My understanding is that iTunes is open to all. Strategically iTunes is a music site that wants to allow customers of iTune access to their music regardless of hardware. Does the customer benefit and iTunes benefits by having customer that like iTunes and if they like Apple could switch hardware by choice. My understanding is other hardware in the market place can access iTunes. Is this thinking correct?

Peace,

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Keep Trying
jca666us @ 11/8/2009 9:41:02 AM # Q
I just think that there are principles worth sticking up for, and open, free communication between hardware and software is definitely one of them.

Open communication between software *designed* to be open. Itunes was never designed to be open to anything but ipods.

If Palm do wind up getting permanently blocked, they'll surely make their own sync client. iTunes is too big to ignore. But why settle for second-best unless you absolutely have to?

So you're conceding itunes is good!

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