Quickies: Sony Results, NR70V, Pocket PC, PalmEvolution

Sony said yesterday it expects good financial results for its U.S. consumer electronics business during this quarter, according to Reuters.. The company said much better than expected sales of its Clié handhelds is one of the reasons.

PC World has chosen the Sony NR70V as the Best PDA in its 20th World Class Awards.

Steve Bush from Brighthand has a first-person report of what happened at the Pocket PC Summit in Philadelphia when someone included positive information about the Palm OS in his presentation.

PalmEvolution graphically shows the introduction dates of the PalmOS devices from all eight licensees. There is also a page on the site which lists various milestone events in the development of the platform. -Dan Royea

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Brighthand article

big_raji @ 6/5/2002 8:39:47 AM #
Nice article on Brighthand, although it's much more of an editorial opinion than an account of what happened. I guess that's why it's in the "Opinions" section of the site.

That's some crazy stuff that happened there... does any site have a detailed account or transcript of the event in question? I'd love to read exactly what got Mr.Kort in so much 'trouble'.

What's Wrong With This Picture?

RE: Brighthand article
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 1:57:38 PM #

Anyone else notice in his article Palm epiphany linked within, how much of the stuff in that Palm presentation has yet to be seen (Garmin, Delphi, Visa)... Ah, the stuff of dreams...

I don't want to say I told you so.

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 8:57:28 AM #
See how Palm's sales is disappointing and Clie is helping Sony's result.
RE: I don't want to say I told you so.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 10:18:29 AM #
Sony is still losing tonnes of money on the Clie. The reports arew deceiving because all consumer goods are lumped together.
RE: I don't want to say I told you so.
ssummer @ 6/5/2002 10:27:55 AM #
To both of the posters above, please cite specific numbers (and links to those numbers). It's a rather simple way to prove your point and it won't look like you're just guessing...

RE: I don't want to say I told you so.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 11:18:45 AM #
"The April and May months were pretty positive," said Fujio Nishida, president of Sony Electronics, a unit of Sony Corp. He added that Sony Electronics expects to outpace U.S. sales and profit targets for the first quarter, which ends this month.

Sales were particularly impressive for its line of CLIE handhelds, including a new folding model with a built-in camera, keyboard and a swiveling larger screen, he said at a press briefing here.

The above is from the press.
See, Palm said these two months are bad. And Sony said
these two months are pretty positive, especially CLIE sales were particularly impressive.

Any thing more that are needed to be quoted? :-)

RE: I don't want to say I told you so.
Ronin @ 6/5/2002 12:31:00 PM #
I am at a loss to see how the statement you quoted establishes any thing let alone the - "I don't want to say I told you so" comment you originally posted.

Did Sony sell more handhelds then Palm during this period?
Did Palm sell more handhelds then Sony during this period?
Has the market standing of either changed during this period?

The statement quoted does not reveal the answer to these questions it only reflects positive spin by a Sony corporate executive.

Perhaps the Clie sales expectations he eludes were too low and thus were easily exceeded or perhaps the Clie's have seen a jump in sales over previous months, who knows, this statement certainly does not reveal that information. As to Palm and the negative news - Palm is the market leader, any dip in profits or sales or failure to meet expectations is big news. The same can be said for Microsoft and Windows (soft sales, delays in release, etc. are all big news) but this does not necessarily mean that their position as market leader has eroded or is in any real jeopardy.

I believe that is why the other commentators asked for hard numbers to support your position because without it you are just blowing hot air.

RE: I don't want to say I told you so.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 2:51:14 PM #
All you need to do is look at the prices, availability, and market share of Palm and Sony. Sony's market share is gaining, their models are selling at about 90% or list compared to 80% for Palms, and they are not languishing on shelves and being "given away" on Ebay by the thousands.

Sony is doing it right.

RE: I don't want to say I told you so.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 3:49:16 PM #
"Sony is still losing tonnes of money on the Clie. The reports arew deceiving because all consumer goods are lumped together."

What does that have to do with anything? Palm and Handspring are also losing money. For that matter, Microsoft is losing more money on PPC than *all* of the PalmOS companies combined.

RE: I don't want to say I told you so.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 6:36:56 PM #
You probably haven't read the Palm's anouncement about
this qurarter's result and the discussion on this news here.
Go to read them and you should understand what I said here.
RE: I don't want to say I told you so.
Ronin @ 6/6/2002 12:06:40 AM #
I have read Palm's announcement regarding earnings, I have read the discussion regarding it here and I still do not understand the basis for your conclusion.

Based on the limited information Sony has revealed in this annoucement, it seems to me that you have made a substantial leap in logic. Thus I am asking that you fill in the information that you have managed to glean from this remarkably vague statement from Sony that led you to make your initial statement.

of course

huggy @ 6/5/2002 10:26:56 AM #
they didn't count all the geeks buying a N710C, then upgrading to a N760C, then selling that and getting a 615C, then selling it again in three months to buy the NR70V... no wonder they have strong sales, at a rate of 4 pda's per person!

-------------- huggy ---------------
RE: of course
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 11:20:53 AM #

RE: of course
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 11:41:14 AM #
>> So?

99% of the people I know can't afford to replace their handheld every 3 months. Those who can, don't really need one except to throw it in the face of those who don't have the "latest and greatest".

Sorry, when I purchased mine I bought it because of its support of PIIIx peripherals. It works fine, does what I need it to do and I have no plans to upgrade until there is a quantum leap in capabilities.

RE: of course
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 12:36:54 PM #
Same here, I still have and use my 710C and am not going to upgrade anytime soon. Well, if Sony came out with a model that had as good battery life, I might!
RE: of course
cykalan @ 6/5/2002 2:38:38 PM #
What's the problem here?

There are also people here throwing away a P4 2G+ and get a faster CPU, and repeat doing that every few months. So what's the conclusion from there? Intel sucks? Apparently not.

Read your manuals before you ask!!

RE: of course
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 3:48:31 PM #
Perhaps I need to reiterate myself. Let me make this easier...

99% of the people I know can't afford to replace their (insert device here) every 3 months. Those who can, don't really need one except to throw it in the face of those who don't have the "latest and greatest".

...I never claimed any manufacturer sucked. My point is most people can't afford to be on the bleeding edge of technology, just to get their friends to say "Oooh, Ahhh, look at that!".

RE: of course
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 5:00:29 PM #
pointless statements
RE: of course
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 7:35:31 PM #
>> pointless statements

Ah, I see we have a genius at work here... typical Sony troll. I must have struck a nerve and left you no option but to state that pointless reply.

I made one hell of a statement... Not everyone can afford to go and buy the latest model, just because it has some new bell and whistle. I don’t have mommy or daddy’s money to waste on a new handheld every 3 months.

Is that so hard to understand? Do I need to spell it out differently for you?

RE: of course
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/6/2002 2:48:30 PM #
>>My point is most people can't afford to be on the bleeding edge of technology, just to get their friends to say "Oooh, Ahhh, look at that!".

yeah - and my point is that children like you come to PIC so that you can whin an cry like a child - "Oh yeah - Sony users are just a bunch of show-offs!!". Jesus Chirst - get ****in life.

RE: of course
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/6/2002 8:44:10 PM #
>> Jesus Chirst - get ****in life.

...and you call him a child? Interesting. A point is made and you get your feathers all ruffled!

(BTW... Invest in a spelling/grammar checker)

IBM models left off tree

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 10:42:12 AM #
Though essentially identical to the early Palm models, the inclusion of the IBM models is significant to Palm History because they were an early indication that Big Business took these seriously for their executives AND they were a cool black color when Palms only came in boring gray!

RE: IBM models left off tree
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 10:46:30 AM #
I will be the first to flame myself ---- I see that the IBM models were included in the milestones chart but I still think they should have been included in the visual evolution tree.
RE: IBM models left off tree
Palm_Otaku @ 6/6/2002 1:39:04 PM #
Thanks for the comment - leaving out the WorkPad line is actually an issue that I wrestled with (and I still may make the change to the "Palm Tree").
Layout considerations were one of the trickier aspects of the Palm Tree design, particularly as many people have relatively low-resolution monitors and I wanted to avoid horizontal scrolling as much as possible. The small size of the device images was one of the compromises inherent in this.
--- Dan

RE: IBM models left off tree
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/6/2002 2:52:26 PM #
Dan - on behalf many PIC readers, i'd like to thank you for providing us a tool that we can use in flame wars on PICs message boards. For example, you can't discuss anything these days on PIC without a Sony vs Palm flame war erupting - and these invariably involve arguments like 'oh yeah - well Palm has been around 10 yrs while Sony has only been in the market for a year - so thats why their marketshare is lower!' or, conversly 'Palm has only been out a few yrs and Sony has had almost as long to grab marketshare'. Now when peoples memories get conveniently fuzzy for the sake of supporting there arguement - they can be countered with a simple link to yr tree. Thanks for doing your part to educate the masses.

Glen Fountain Was right, right, right!

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 2:44:52 PM #
Glen Fountain was right when he said,"am very fortunate to have made a lot of money in the past 10 years riding Bill's coattails - but am glad I never got in their way because they don't play fair, and if they can't make a better product or grab market share in the traditional way, they buy you and assimilate or destroy you."

Chris H. was wrong when he said that the speaker was not treated rudely. Chris H. was wrong when he said that he was not paid by MS. Chris H. was wrong when he said that it was all OK because the man politely accepted his exchange of business cards the next day.

Microsoft does not know how to compete fairly. Period. They have never, ever offered an original product, OS, service, or idea.

RE: Glen Fountain Was right, right, right!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 3:47:30 PM #
Now, be honest... M$ does come up with some good ideas. Sure *most* of their stuff is not original, but they deserve some credit now and then.
RE: Glen Fountain Was right, right, right!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 6:44:45 PM #
Motocross Madness II doesn't count.
RE: Glen Fountain Was right, right, right!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/6/2002 2:59:58 PM #
Yep. It is true - they make the odd good product. Ifr Linux was as consistant and easy to use - i would still have it on my harddrive. I actually think they've gotten things about right with XP (oh - except for that gaping security problem they had right out of the gate!). Most useful and inovative product from MS? Its actually Active Server Pages (not even MS fully understood how good an idea they had on there hands when this first came out). It powers ALOT of the net these days, and makes interactive webapps MUCH easier to build then previous CGI web technologies. Of course - that leaves about a thousand other crappy ripoff products. (is it just me, or does anyone else feel that 99.9 percent of users dont need ANY MSOffice features from versions higher then Office 97?).


I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 7:33:32 PM #

I'm no Apple fanatic, but that Palm evolution site should maybe recognize the Newton, no?
RE: Newton???
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/5/2002 9:58:34 PM #
It does mention that on Sept 19, 1994, Graffiti was announced for Newton, GEOS, and Magic Cap PDAs. That's all that is appropriate. He's not writing a history of the handheld, he's giving a list of important dates in the Palm OS.

While you could argue that the Newton was important to the development of the handheld, I think the Palm OS succeeded despite the Newton, not because of it. The final version of the Newton was good but the whole platform was a spectacular financial and PR failure.

One of the problems Hawkins had to overcome when he was putting out the first Palm Pilot was everyone's skepticism that a handheld could work, based on many people's negative experiences with the Newton.

RE: Newton???
Palm_Otaku @ 6/6/2002 1:32:56 PM #
That's correct: I intend to keep the site focussed on Palm devices - including other PDAs that were around when the pilot was introduced (Newton, Zoomer, MagicLink - all of which I own) would morph the site into PDAEvolution.com ;-)

The next updates to the site will include links to pages that provide some additional historical background on PDA development.

-- Dan

RE: Newton???
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 12:58:06 AM #
To claim that
"The appearance of the first pilot in early 1996 redefined the handheld computer" is somewhat erroneous. It was, in fact, the Newton which actually redefined the handheld computer with it's form factor, handwriting input, portability, and functionalty. No one has yet been able to equal the Newt's 'Assist' function.

Newton was the paradigm upon which all other PDAs would later be based on.

Newton & MagicCaps sons coming to town
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 1:06:26 AM #
- Newton was the paradigm upon which all other PDAs would later be based on. -

I sign that statement.
And go further:

There is still nowadays no evolution reaching or going beyond the stoneage Newton.

The Newton & MagicCaps revolutionary intelligence, speed & elegant interface are still unbeaten today.

Everything else coming later builds on that customer experience, but can even nowadays not reach by a very far shot the original concept.

The Newton had it all:
Two slots, full automatic recognition of anything you popped in the slots, sound card backup, ultrafast, multitasking highly efficient ARM processor (a derivate the Palm will get in a year from now if were lucky), intelligent assistant, video with sound in astonishing quality. And yes - he worked internally on 256 colours and you could print & publish that colour. Email, ftp e.g. was never easier than on the Newton.
The screen was (that was the front-end of technology by that time) in excellent black/green. The Newton runs on full charged batteries, even thought the screen is much bigger and a lot brighter than the one of the Palm, longer than any PDA nowadays.

The Newton never lost any data. Never!
I switched on my Newton 2100G after not using him for 8 months and the batteries where more than dry - all data was here like on day one.

The Newton did not fail on the market - it sold without any advertisement for an astronomic price like brezels - he was killed as a scapegoat for solving another deep commercial problem Apple had by that time.

For the same reason the Newton was scrapped you do not see anymore the great Apple software like MacWrite Pro, Apple Works e.g. on the new Apple machines preinstalled (except for the very low end) but instead Outlook and Explorer. That helped Apple surviving and muddling through some very dark financial years.

We still hope that Apple will come based on their sound Newton and iPod experience with a new way we see mobile computing, later this year.

And this is sure: If Apple comes with a new idea on mobile computing, they develop something on their own, setting a new pace and with a big "whow effect”- and the will absolutely certain not copycat others ideas - not form Xerox lab nor anywhere else as it is standard today.

If Apple comes with a complete new approach to mobile computing - than the market will have to say goodbye to many of the big names today filling the internet discussion sites quoted as the ”PDA market leaders”.

If they do not come - the mobile industry as a whole (except for the industrial use) will be boring to early extinction.

Boris Michael v Luhovoy
Publishing Editor
Palmtop-Pro Magazin

RE: Newton???
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 7:07:22 PM #
Thank you Boris. It is refreshing to see that others are not blinded by the Palm or CE hoopla. When I said the Newton was the paradigm I meant it as an inescapable fact. The newer devices have become smaller but in many respects they still don't measure up to the Newton.

Being a PDA fanatic I have both, Palm and CE devices, but like a first love/infatuation, the Newton is the one I always think about.



RE: Newton???
Palm_Otaku @ 6/10/2002 2:32:30 PM #
I've got a couple Newts in my collection and without question, they are cool devices. However, I'll stand by my statement that the pilot redefined the handheld computer.

The two main factors: it was (1) pocketable and (2) affordable. (Look at present-day PDAs > do they resemble the pilot or the Newt?)

The pilot was a run-away success, selling a million units within 18 months of introduction. Despite all of it's cool capabilities, the Newton never achieved commercial success.

RE: Newton???
Palm_Otaku @ 6/10/2002 2:48:34 PM #
Ah, I almost forgot to mention another critical factor: the pilot came with a cradle and HotSync software for PC connectivity out of the box (this functionality was an overpriced optional accessory for the Newton and Zoomer and Magic Link). Instead of attempting to be a stand-alone computer, it was an extension of your desktop computer.



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