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    PalmSource Executives Elaborate on Linux StrategyPosted By: Ryan on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:58:25 AM
LinuxDevices.com has an executive interview with PalmSource VP of Engineering Mike Kelley and Director of Product Marketing John Cook to discuss PalmSource's Linux strategy and plans. The interview reveals much about PalmSource's detailed plans for Palm OS Linux.
Thanks to David Smoot for the tip.
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 RE: So much promise...
1st 1/2 of 2006 delivered. That's target, so it could be fall with a delay or 2. Then hardware makers take miniumum 6 mos to get a product to market. Then if it's a mobile device, the carriers take another 6 months to stamp it. Looks like you can hold a Palm (or some other name?) OS enabled smartfone or communicator in hand realistically by Summer or Christmas season 2007. I wonder if PalmOne (err Palm) plans to milk Garnet to v5.99999 until then? That's 4 or 5 product release schedules on their current timeline. Apparently, they are not embracing vanilla Cobalt OS for their product lines. I must admit that "Palm" OS on the Linux train is very compelling. Now they just have to bring it to fruition. RE: So much promise...AdamaDBrown @ 5/31/2005 4:19:03 PM #
I'll believe in Palm Linux when I see it. They said that Cobalt was going to be done before the end of the year, 2003. You know, a little admission of the Cobalt debacle would go a long way. If PSRC just said "Yes, there were problems with the initial builds of Cobalt, and our licensees decided not to use it," it could help convince a lot of people that PSRC is still in contact with reality. Their continual denial and covering of the obvious just makes you wonder whether they have any understanding of the problem, or if it's just going to be repeated. RE: So much promise...
Yes, "Dr. Nagel." Ph.D. in experimental Psychology from UCLA. When he got it, I don't know. -- PalmPilot Pro (1997) -> III (1998) -> Vx (1999) -> m500 (2001) -> m515 (2002) -> ??? RE: So much promise...
AdamaDBrown wrote: "I'll believe in Palm Linux when I see it. They said that Cobalt was going to be done before the end of the year, 2003." Ummm, yeah. And it was. He went on: Frankly, I don't think PalmSource makes its decisions about how to manage its PR based on the folks who post on PIC, which is probably a good thing judging from the crowd here. If you stop and think about it for a moment you will realize that while Cobalt devices are in the pipeline (and they clearly are) there really isn't a good time to make this kind of acknowledgement. All it would really accomplish is to piss off the licensees who are going to want to generate enthusiasm about Cobalt when they announce themselves. I've talked to a lot of people at PalmSource over the last few months and I think they have their feet on the ground. I personally came away from DevCon feeling a lot stronger about the future of the platform. David Beers RE: So much promise...
<> That's a good thing. And one of the main purposes that PSRC would sink million$ into such an annual event, I might add. RE: So much promise...AdamaDBrown @ 5/31/2005 6:28:24 PM #
Ummm, yeah. And it was. Not in any useful form. PalmSource has unofficially admitted that the initial release of Cobalt was unfit for use, which is why they had to rework it all through 2004. PalmOne still feels that it's not worth making the change from their hacked version of Garnet. Frankly, I don't think PalmSource makes its decisions about how to manage its PR based on the folks who post on PIC, which is probably a good thing judging from the crowd here. You think we're the only ones who watch PalmSource? A big part of the reason that their stock sucks right now is because investors have no confidence in them. No investor wants to put their money in a company that's doing the business equivalent of insisting that there are WMDs. Or for that matter, talking about the tooth fairy. Likewise, developers are losing faith in the platform because PalmSource has continued to talk about what a great development platform they have, when the new OS has never showed up and dev support is far behind the competition. No matter what PalmSource may believe, you really CAN'T make up your own facts by endlessly repeating a falsehood. If you stop and think about it for a moment you will realize that while Cobalt devices are in the pipeline (and they clearly are) there really isn't a good time to make this kind of acknowledgement. All it would really accomplish is to piss off the licensees who are going to want to generate enthusiasm about Cobalt when they announce themselves. Hardly. Cobalt devices in the pipeline? Last autumn, PSRC said that there were at least five smartphones based on Cobalt scheduled for release in the first three months of 2005. None of them ever showed. Similar promises have been made going back to January 2004. At this moment, we have evidence that there is one Cobalt phone on the way, maybe, for a possible delivery this fall. As for pissing off the licensees, they've already done that. An admission that the first revision wasn't useful would amount to an apology to the couple of licensees that remain, and would also serve up subtext: "Cobalt is better now, take a look at it again." I've talked to a lot of people at PalmSource over the last few months and I think they have their feet on the ground. I personally came away from DevCon feeling a lot stronger about the future of the platform. Well, that makes one. Cervezas, Scepticism about Cobalt devices...
... is totally justified when you consider: a) Palmsource released Garnet 5.4 AND Cobalt 6.0 at the same time - Feb 04: ( http://www.palmsource.com/press/2004/021004_cobalt.html ) b) By NOV 04 PalmOne had not even one but two Garnet devices available to buy: Yet despite over a year waiting for a device with Cobalt 6.0 and 7-8 months for one with Cobalt 6.1, there's still no sign of such a device from PalmOne, the only major Palm OS licensee. This suggests an unwillingness or an inability of PalmOne to make a Cobalt device. RE: So much promise...
Sure, I count myself as a Cobalt skeptic for the reasons you just mentioned. The difference is that most of the shrill voices on PIC seem to think they know exactly why Cobalt has been slow to market and believe they can draw conclusions from this that neither Cobalt nor Palm OS Linux will ever go to market. It's not really rational, IMO. Sadly, it's become a knee-jerk reflex on this forum. Personally, I think the Cobalt story is much less clear. But you can put together some clues and guess that the Linux decision was made to address what went wrong with Cobalt. Logically, the issue was probably that when PalmSource had to move from reference design hardware to devices that the ODMs actually wanted to sell they found that it was costly to develop drivers and support software for a proprietary OS that started from zero in this department. Some of those costs may have resulted in production delays that weren't expected, and some may just have scared the vendors away. It's hard enough to be a 1.0 early adopter--seeing even smallish obstacles to adoption makes it much harder. See, that's actually a reason to be optimistic about Linux since it addresses that issue very directly and sensibly. All this is just supposition, though. I know just enough from talking to guys at PalmSource to say that I don't think anyone here really knows the story with Cobalt or has the basis to believe "Cobalt is DOA" any more than "Cobalt is about to explode onto the scene and change the world." Myself included. David Beers RE: So much promise...
Cervezas said: Frankly, I don't think PalmSource makes its decisions about how to manage its PR based on the folks who post on PIC, which is probably a good thing judging from the crowd here. Bear in mind by posting here you yourself have become a member of the crowd here. RE: So much promise...
Bear in mind by posting here you yourself have become a member of the crowd here. Just don't tell any of my friends, OK? I think I'm like a lot of folks I've talked with in that I've watched the goings on here from a safe distance for a long time but never was too excited to roll around in the mud with you guys! ;-) I'm not going to do the potty humor thing that seems so popular here for some reason, but if I can throw a word or two in here to balance the absurd level of negativism from time to time I may do that. A lot of people here seem to go way too far and it's, well... annoying. David Beers RE: So much promise...The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/1/2005 10:26:49 PM #
Looks like Kirvin's not-so-evil twin is in da house, yo! Riddle me this, CobaltBoy: - What happened with the telephony stacks for Cobalt in 2003/4? (And remember: this was supposedly an OS tailor made for smartphones...) - How many major development tools support creating Cobalt-specific apps? - Does CodeWarrior support Cobalt? (And in a hilarious twist, anyone notice how Metrowerks sold out to Nokia and has now pulled CodeWarrior from their site? Nokia certainly doesn't **** around now, do they! No doubt CW9 for PalmOS will be available again... in 2008! - When was Palm OS Developer Suite released? - How long have licensees had access to Cobalt? - TVoR "Yes, and I would've gotten away with it to, if it weren't for those blasted kids and their dog." "It would have been mine, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids." ------------------------ ------------------------ The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: So much promise...
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ Uh, @fter All those questions you just posed, why @re there suddenly @tumble@weeds@? Is th@t the reply? Thought so... RE: So much promise...The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/2/2005 8:32:27 PM #
It's time people finally called Palm on all the BS. Don't expect to hear a PEEP outta them on this... The Cobalt BUGS are yet another part of this sordid tale. ("Buggier than a New York tenament".) Any company that was willing to commit to Cobalt in 2004 was either crazy or had mighty big cojones. Or both. The Palm Economy = Communism™ Golly gee whiz. Ben Combee? Anyone?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/3/2005 2:48:49 AM #
It's not like those were hard questions to answer. ;-O The Palm Economy = Communism™ Still only crickets chirping here at Palminfocenter...The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/6/2005 3:10:01 PM #
- Michael Mace - Ben Combee - Jeff Kirvin All suddenly silent? Shocking! To all the Palm Apologists: remember to ask REAL questions and cut through the BS in the future. The Palm Economy = Communism™ CricketWatch: Day 1. The vigil continues...The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/8/2005 11:04:02 PM #
Dear Diary, it's been seven quiet, lonely days since someone cut through the BULL and asked Palm's official and unofficial spin doctors a few simple questions about Cobalt and its development platform. The silence has been astounding. Dejected Palm Faithful are left to draw their own conclusions, but the writing now appears to be on the wall. PalmOS 5 will be the OS of choice for PalmOS PDAs for at least 2 more years. Cobalt is VAPORWARE used only by a handful of developers that are brave enough to actually code for a platform with no future, using a beta toolset. PalmLinux is little more than an idea at this point in time. The sherpas have left me alone now - they all say an attempt to scale Mount Cobalt given the current conditions would be suicidal. Mr. Nagel has told me I must push on, so I will continue. I have only enough food to last three more days and a storm is coming. God help me. - Sir Edmund The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: So much promise...
>>>I have only enough food to last three more days and a storm is coming. What I want to know is, What happened to that bunker filled with canned peas?! Please put all of us "trolls" in your Will to inherit your stockpile of TH55s. NVFS is the greatest thing since the PalmPilot itself
So says JK. I would provide a link, but I think he's deliberately doing controversial subjects to increase his listenership. Surur RE: So much promise...The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/9/2005 12:06:43 PM #
Please put all of us "trolls" in your Will to inherit your stockpile of TH55s. No TH55 for you! Now get out! I did leave you a dented can of peas though, Mike.
The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: So much promise...
>>>I did leave you a dented can of peas though, Mike. Are they all dented? That would explain you: Powered By Botulism. Suer (I like that phonetic typo; it's fitting!) -- laugh now about FRAM in POS devices, but make sure you return here when all of your PPCs have it too! I look forward to Jason Dunn's Commentary about it. I expect it to be very much like Kirvin's. From crickets to locusts
http://www.allaboutpalm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44 -- I expect you to register, VoR. This should be as exciting as the old Roller Derby... RE: So much promise...The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/9/2005 9:41:26 PM #
The_Voice_of_Reason, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons: Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
The Palm Economy = Communism™ Questions for Michael MaceThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/9/2005 10:04:35 PM #
Ummmmmm... how could I have posted to PIC if my account wasn't active? [I'll have what Mr. Cane is smoking, please.] I couldn't log in to Ewan's site to post my questions. Still, I'd like to see Michael Mace answer the questions that were posed in this thread: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7873#108654
The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: So much promise...
What are *you* ingesting, that your reply is as vague as the post I questioned? Let me put it to you in the form of a list:
1) Did you try to register to post at AAP? 
 VaporwareThe Voice of Doubt @ 5/31/2005 3:52:58 PM #
<<< Q2. Does PalmSource still intend to ship the Cobalt OS? PalmSource: Yes, we definitely have licensees working with it. GSPDA publicly said they are going to ship a Cobalt phone. We can't discuss the confidential plans of our licensees, however. >>
Like when will Cobalt REALLY come out? Around the time of the next ice age? -------------- RE: VaporwareThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/31/2005 4:00:23 PM #
This PDA site is only big enough for one "Voice". Time for you to move along, Bubba. ------------------------ ------------------------ The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Vaporware
Yes, but at least the Voice of Doubt isn't flinging iPoo around all the time. -- PalmPilot Pro (1997) -> III (1998) -> Vx (1999) -> m500 (2001) -> m515 (2002) -> ??? RE: VaporwareThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/31/2005 4:38:46 PM #
If the iPoo sticks... ------------------------ ------------------------ The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Vaporware
speaking of the iPoo, I'd like to make a polite request that you change/remove it. It really disrupts the flow of the threads here and adds distraction. -Ryan RE: Vaporware
>speaking of the iPoo, I'd like to make a polite request that you change/remove it. It really disrupts the flow of the threads here and adds distraction. AMEN. RE: Vaporware
Every once in awhile, "a tad disgusting" is good for a laugh. But even a good joke can be over used. -- PalmPilot Pro (1997) -> III (1998) -> Vx (1999) -> m500 (2001) -> m515 (2002) -> ??? RE: Vaporware
>speaking of the iPoo, I'd like to make a polite request that you change/remove it. It really disrupts the flow of the threads here and adds distraction.
>AMEN. Yea, it's time that floater got flushed away!
PalmSource: Deliver the goods. Please.The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/31/2005 3:49:13 PM #
Enough with the vaporware, already. We've already heard the same B.S. about Cobalt also "coming real soon now" and last I checked the only place you could find Cobalt was on a custom Tungsten T 3 "borrowed" from a Palm engineer. Now we're supposed to erase the references to Cobalt and insert PalmLinux? Puh-leeese. Based on what I've seen, the PalmLinux deadline will just keep slipping and slipping until no one cares anymore. PalmOS 5 will be into revision 5.7x before PalmLinux is even stable enough to start beta testing on real devices. I'd love to be on the beta team for this BiotchOS. Nagel: Call me. ;-O ------------------------ ------------------------ The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: PalmSource: Deliver the goods. Please.
"last I checked the only place you could find Cobalt was on a custom Tungsten T 3 "borrowed" from a Palm engineer" Nope. We were playing around with one from Oswin Technology at the DevCon. Ryan's going to throw up a link to my report about it in a bit, so I won't steal his thunder. It's nice. It's got the smallest QVGA screen I have ever seen anywhere. The phone itself is just over 2" wide. In any case, I don't think the slow delivery of Cobalt devices has any relevance to the delivery time we can expect for Palm OS Linux devices. There are a lot of reasons why Cobalt has been slow to market, some of which no one here (myself included) is probably aware. But one thing we know is that building your own proprietary kernel as they did meant they also had to build all their own support software and drivers for every chipset and device component. Expensive and time-consuming, and as new hardware is developed you have to keep pedaling to keep up with the support software. That probably worries the vendors. What's killer about Palm OS/Linux is that this burden is mostly lifted off of PalmSource's shoulders. The drivers and support software are mostly there already and the OSS community develops them quickly when there's something missing. The other thing that makes perfect sense is that PalmSource's commitment to making its Cobalt platform into "middleware" that will run on either the Cobalt microkernel or Linux has increased the demand for the original Cobalt. It's a reassurance that a commitment to Cobalt will not leave licensees hanging when the Palm OS Linux devices come out since PalmSource is paving a smooth transition. David Beers RE: PalmSource: Deliver the goods. Please.The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/31/2005 4:37:26 PM #
I didn't see their stand. Where were they located? ------------------------ ------------------------ The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: PalmSource: Deliver the goods. Please.
"I didn't see their stand. Where were they located?" I talked to them in lab. AFAIK they didn't have a booth in the expo hall. This device is made to run multiple OSes and I think they're having to do a little dance with regard to announcements until the ink is dry with the various vendors. But I know several developers who bought these devices from the Oswin guys during the conference. The one I played with was running on Cingular. David Beers
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Aside from a major feeling of deja-vu, I hope PSRC pulls it off this time. For once, I'm not optimistic.
One final thing: DR Nagel???