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PCMag Editorial: Palm's Future is Not Rosy

PC Magazine has posted an interesting new article to their website on the past, present, and potentially grim future of Palm Inc. Sascha Segan, an online columnist for PC Mag, has written a superbly hard-hitting superb piece that admonishes Palm for not only the Foleo cancellation debacle, but for the company's general inability to deliver compelling new products year after year. Segan offers similar advice to Palm as found in the recent Engadget open letter to Palm and Ed Colligan, "Palm needs to set some deadlines, announce them, and stick to them. They need to suck up the tech community's disbelief for a while, and re-earn its respect by delivering big new ideas on time."

Mr. Segan's editorial piece goes on to say that Palm as a company is trapped in a 2004-era timewarp and is "…churning out incremental improvements to their 2004-era Treo 650 and regurgitating the same tired promises about a new operating system that we've been hearing since January of '04. Their standalone PDA line hasn't had any kind of refresh since 2005." A later comment in the piece describes Palm’s upcoming Centro miniature-sized, entry level smartphone as "…once again, old wine in a new bottle." Additional fingers within the article are pointed at the general malaise enveloping the formerly robust Palm 3rd party software market via a link to this telling report from May.

The mood of the piece is not entirely negative, as Segan applauds Palm for the overall concepts behind the doomed Foleo Mobile Phone Companion and the failed LifeDrive Mobile Manager. Both devices, Segan argues, were fine designs in theory that suffered from poor execution and botched hardware design.

In what is Segan's final and perhaps most prescient comment of all, he likens the fate of Palm in 2007 to the miserable fortunes of Apple in 1998 at the time of Steve Jobs' return to the fold. If Palm is be brought back from the bring by a heaven-sent savior, that individual will most likely have to come from outside the company, as the two long-time figureheads of Palm, Jeff Hawkins and Ed Colligan, are the architects of the failed Foleo and Palm's questionable Treo-exclusive strategy.

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More reasoned than Engadget's piece.

freakout @ 9/13/2007 5:33:18 PM # Q
But still...

Palm's Treos were once the gold standard for usability and flexibility.
Still are. Despite the crashes and Garnet's ugliness...

Now, the latest BlackBerries play video and run hundreds of applications;
And as many have noted, have absolutely terrible interfaces for anything other than email.

the Apple iPhone has created a whole new market for smart handhelds;
Yep, but without the ability to add third-party apps it's just a (really slick) feature phone.

Nokia is showing how much multimedia power can fit into a phone-centric device;
But like RIM, the interface stinks.

and Windows Mobile integrates beautifully with the Microsoft universe. Yes, Palm makes Windows Mobile devices, but their Windows Mobile Treos are halfhearted, chunky, and expensive compared to models produced by companies like HTC.

That's pushing it. The Treo 750 received near-universal praise as one of the best WinMob phones available.

Look, we all know that Palm's lagging behind the industry on the hardware front. But I am very tired of people holding up other company's devices as the examples to be striving for. More often than not, they have their own glaring flaws, but they get ignored because hey, they're new! The tech industry's obsession with shiny newness bugs me.

All I know is that the Treo still serves my needs from a mobile device a heck of a lot better than the competition does. The same must be true for a large number of people otherwise they wouldn't still be buying these things and Palm would be dead already.

I am totally agreed with the idea that Palm need to publish their deadlines though. They need to stop being so secretive. We need monthly or even better weekly updates on how the new OS is going. We need concept sketches of future handhelds. We need to hear more from people who work on tech issues within the company. All that might start to bring people around again. But right now the prevailing image is one of a company spinning their wheels. That's what needs to be fixed.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
SeldomVisitor @ 9/13/2007 5:37:56 PM # Q
> ...The same must be true for a large number of people otherwise they
> wouldn't still be buying these things...

Look for sell-through numbers on October 1 and sometime in December or January.

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
cervezas @ 9/13/2007 7:38:30 PM # Q
and Windows Mobile integrates beautifully with the Microsoft universe. Yes, Palm makes Windows Mobile devices, but their Windows Mobile Treos are halfhearted, chunky, and expensive compared to models produced by companies like HTC.

And yet...

I don't see a lot of HTC phones out in the wilds of enterprise smartphone-land (talking mostly about Denver/Chicago and airports/flights between). As far as what I can tell just from looking around me, the smartphone pecking order seems to be BlackBerry --> Treo --> Motorola Q --> Samsung BlackJack --> everything else. BlackBerry far, far ahead, Palm/Moto/Samsung clustered fairly close together, and "Other Windows Mobile" down in the noise. I see as many people using PDAs in airports and commuter trains as I do HTC-made smartphones. (And since the launch I've seen exactly one person use an iPhone outside of the store. Are they hiding them so as not to draw attention?)

I'm quick to add that a lot of those Treos don't seem to be the new models. It's a little hard to say, since Treos are often *heard* as much as seen, but I do see a lot of 650s still in good use. That's bad on the one hand (people not upgrading) but on the other hand it's a sign that a lot of folks still like their Treos better than the other smartphone brands.

Sascha Segan, like most tech media reviewers, doesn't have normal exposure to users that aren't tech-geeks. I think this kind of puts his opinions about mobile technology into the correct context: http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkontherun/2006/10/verizons_gzone_.html

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

hkklife @ 9/13/2007 7:58:22 PM # Q
Beersie;

You bring up some good point and ones that I've kinda/sorta echoed here recently as well. No matter how many Garter study results I read, message boards I peruse, or editorial pieces from PC Mag or Walt Mossberg I read, I find that "real world" observations tend to give drastically different results.

I personally have just seen a handful of iPhones out in the wild *EXCEPT* when work briefly brought me into contact on two separate occasions with different groups of high-flying, west coast advertising/media types. Almost every single one of 'em was toting an iPhone, a MacBook Pro and a small Canon/Nikon digicam. Yet I never seem to see iPhones in airports, train stations, waiting rooms and building lobbies.

I see tons upon tons upon tons of BlackBerries, yes. Everyone I know has either a BB (mostly the Pearl, 8700, or even 7100 & older models) And I see a heap of older Treo 600s/650s, usually carried by "roadwarrior" sales force or middle management types. I actually saw more Q's a year ago than I've seen lately and know of at least 3 former Q owners who ditched them in favor of Treos or BBs. I've only seen maybe one or two BlackJacks out and about and an impossible to determine assortment of "other" WM-based devices (mostly Samsung or HTCs).

Heck, I know of 3 users (all female, ironically) who use their BBs *ONLY* as dumbphones without ever even trying to learn to use the address book, calendar, web browser or e-mail. They just bought them "because of the big screen" and because all of their coworkers had 'em.

Everyone I've ever struck up a conversation with about their Treos has complained bitterly about its performance as a telephone as well as the battery life. I think everyone I know with a Treo keeps it cranked up at maximum brightness as well (those aging eyes again...).

If I made a list of my top, say, 10 Treo grievences, I figure only half of my wants would also be found on the "average" user's wishlist.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
rpa @ 9/13/2007 8:48:51 PM # Q
My two cents' worth from Asia: clearly BB is in the lead for business users followed by Treo. The other smartphones are all in the back of the pack. BB users sing praises all the time and Treo users usually grumble about one feature or another that bugs them...lousy phone, poor camera...but otherwise they stick with it (probably because of the cost to change). Yes, and I even see people like me using a PDA with a cheap Moto flip phone! Ah, for a Palm flip phone....I just like the O/S even if it isn't the slickest interface.

rpa
Palm Pilot >> Palm Tungsten E user
RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
Gekko @ 9/13/2007 9:06:40 PM # Q

i see lots of people i knew as treo users all switching to BB. lots of companies doing the same thing. treo is cheaper up front vs. BB, but too many support issues is the hidden expense of the treo. many companies switching to BB.

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
joeags @ 9/13/2007 9:31:15 PM # Q
And to add a bit more "real world," my wife recently did usability testing for the corporate site's mobile functionality, and found the same thing, ~60% BB, ~35% Treo. I think I remember a handful using a handheld, and *1* using an Archos 604 wifi!! And to echo what Gekko said, ~2 years ago it was Treo slightly in the lead, with BB second.

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
PacManFoo @ 9/13/2007 9:36:26 PM # Q

But still...
Palm's Treos were once the gold standard for usability and flexibility.
Still are. Despite the crashes and Garnet's ugliness...

Source?


Now, the latest BlackBerries play video and run hundreds of applications;
And as many have noted, have absolutely terrible interfaces for anything other than email.

Personal Preference?


the Apple iPhone has created a whole new market for smart handhelds;
Yep, but without the ability to add third-party apps it's just a (really slick) feature phone.

There are third party "hacks" apps out there.


Nokia is showing how much multimedia power can fit into a phone-centric device;
But like RIM, the interface stinks.

Again a personal Preference.


Look, we all know that Palm's lagging behind the industry on the hardware front. But I am very tired of people holding up other company's devices as the examples to be striving for. More often than not, they have their own glaring flaws, but they get ignored because hey, they're new! The tech industry's obsession with shiny newness bugs me.

It's called innovation.


All I know is that the Treo still serves my needs from a mobile device a heck of a lot better than the competition does. The same must be true for a large number of people otherwise they wouldn't still be buying these things and Palm would be dead already.

People still buy VCR's

I am totally agreed with the idea that Palm need to publish their deadlines though. They need to stop being so secretive. We need monthly or even better weekly updates on how the new OS is going. We need concept sketches of future handhelds. We need to hear more from people who work on tech issues within the company. All that might start to bring people around again. But right now the prevailing image is one of a company spinning their wheels. That's what needs to be fixed.

Totally Agree on this.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
twrock @ 9/13/2007 10:10:35 PM # Q
the Apple iPhone has created a whole new market for smart handhelds;
Yep, but without the ability to add third-party apps it's just a (really slick) feature phone.

There are third party "hacks" apps out there.


Oh, please, this isn't even a "weak" come-back.

How many?

What can they do?

Do they even supply 5% of the functionality of the third-party apps that my Palm device is running right now?

People keep mocking anyone who talks about the "thousands" of third-party apps for Palm. Ok then, fair's fair. There is no way anyone should be trying to talk about the current iPhone hacks as if there is real third-party software support for the iPhone.

If Apple opens this thing up and delivers the SDK, then there will be something to get excited about.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

More reasoned...
jca666us @ 9/13/2007 10:20:33 PM # Q
>>Palm's Treos were once the gold standard for usability and flexibility.
>Still are. Despite the crashes and Garnet's ugliness...

Freak, For once I decided to take you at your word and consult a dictionary:

1. usability - The effectiveness, efficiency, and satisfaction with which users can achieve tasks in a particular
environment of a product. High usability means a system is: easy to learn and remember; efficient, visually
pleasing and fun to use; and quick to recover from errors.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Palm OS crashes, antiquated UI design is not indicative of usability.


2. flexibility - The quality of being easily adaptable or responsive to change.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Palm OS inability to utilize higher resolution screen displays, lacking true multitasking, inability to utilize large amounts of built-in internal memory all point to a lack of flexibility.

It's 2007 - time to face the fact that Palm OS is the gold standard in outdated software architecture. It's called FrankenGarnet for a reason!

>>Now, the latest BlackBerries play video and run hundreds of applications;
>And as many have noted, have absolutely terrible interfaces for anything other than email.

Who are these "many"? I've seen more people using the latest blackberries than I see people using the Treo. For something with an allegedly "terrible interface" people love them.

>>the Apple iPhone has created a whole new market for smart handhelds;
>Yep, but without the ability to add third-party apps it's just a (really slick) feature phone.

More misinformation freak? I've downloaded and installed several third party apps. for my iphone - they're not sanctioned by Apple, but they exist and there's not a whole lot Apple can do to stop them. Apple does support third party Web 2.0 apps. for the iphone. Your blanket statement is inaccurate and wrong.

>>Nokia is showing how much multimedia power can fit into a phone-centric device;
>But like RIM, the interface stinks.

More opinion without a basis in fact. Sources??

>>and Windows Mobile integrates beautifully with the Microsoft universe. Yes, Palm makes Windows Mobile
>>devices, but their Windows Mobile Treos are halfhearted, chunky, and expensive compared to models
>>produced by companies like HTC.

>That's pushing it. The Treo 750 received near-universal praise as one of the best WinMob phones available.

Still, that doesn't invalidate the original statement - Palm OS devices tend to be more expensive, more clunky and less slick.

>Look, we all know that Palm's lagging behind the industry on the hardware front.

Yes, but Palm is lagging moreso with their stale UI and antiquated OS.

>But I am very tired of people holding up other company's devices as the examples to be striving for.

Other companies are striving - Palm is stagnating and has demonstrated a long-standing inability to execute.

>More often than not, they have their own glaring flaws, but they get ignored because hey, they're new! The
>tech industry's obsession with shiny newness bugs me.

You like familiarity - others appreciate innovation. No product is perfect, however most people would rather put money behind products that are being improved and innovated upon than products which are stale rehashes of past glories.

Palm has not been innovative in a very long time.

Anytime they have something remotely innovative (LifeDrive, Foleo) they kill them and/or don't develop them to their full potential. With some work, LifeDrive could have evolved into an ipod touch.

The past few years Palm has been rehashing the same old hardware and software. "Lipstick on a pig" is the comment I see frequently on these boards.

>All I know is that the Treo still serves my needs from a mobile device a heck of a lot better than the
>competition does. The same must be true for a large number of people otherwise they wouldn't still be
>buying these things and Palm would be dead already.

Let's see what Palm's sales are when they announce their quarterly numbers.

>I am totally agreed with the idea that Palm need to publish their deadlines though. They need to stop being
>so secretive. We need monthly or even better weekly updates on how the new OS is going. We need concept
>sketches of future handhelds. We need to hear more from people who work on tech issues within the
>company. All that might start to bring people around again. But right now the prevailing image is one of a
>company spinning their wheels. That's what needs to be fixed.

Palm could publish a million deadlines, but it won't make a difference. Neither consumers nor the tech industry are going to give Palm a free pass - at this point they need to execute.

Palm has squandered many opportunities - there aren't many more left. At some point, it will be too late for Palm - it may already be too late.

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
PacManFoo @ 9/13/2007 10:49:55 PM # Q

Oh, please, this isn't even a "weak" come-back.
How many?
What can they do?
Do they even supply 5% of the functionality of the third-party apps that my Palm device is running right now?
People keep mocking anyone who talks about the "thousands" of third-party apps for Palm. Ok then, fair's fair. There is no way anyone should be trying to talk about the current iPhone hacks as if there is real third-party software support for the iPhone.

Let's see third party apps have been being made for nearly 10 years for palm. The iPhone hasn't even been out 6 months yet and your comparing the amount of software available? Palm in those nearly 10 years has hardly even updated their built in applications. I'm sure I'm not different from most users when I say there are basically 6 or 7 applications that I use regularly on my Palm and have for a number of years. Sure I'll try a new game here and there but the rest are hacks to get the Palm OS to work correctly. If it were not for programs like Flushit I'd have flushed the TX long ago. On the other hand Apple constantly updates and fixes when necessary their software. That brings up another point. There where NO OS patches for the TX. Palm left it's users to hope that someone could fix their problems for them. Luckily I never bought a Treo but I read all about how upset users got without updates to their problems. By the way, try finding new software that supports the full screen of the TX. There isn't much out there anymore.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
freakout @ 9/13/2007 11:30:08 PM # Q
Sorry, jca666us, did you say something? I accidentally scrolled straight past as soon as I saw your handle.

BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of "hundreds" of other phones that have hardware mute switches.

PacManFoo:
On the other hand Apple constantly updates and fixes when necessary their software. That brings up another point.

You're right, it does. When Apple update their software, what happens to all those hacks? Ooops! Broken again until they're re-hacked:

http://tinyurl.com/2zuysf

Ouch, that was fast. Apple didn't seem to want to let get around that its got a completely neutral stance on 3rd party application development for the iPhone, and apparently got back with Gearlog to clarify that future iPhone "software updates will most likely break" 3rd party app compatibility. Not ignore, not possibly break -- most likely break. In other words, don't set your hopes too high that the NES games you're enjoying on your iPhone today will be around tomorrow, since it sounds like Apple won't be playing Switzerland after all.


Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
twrock @ 9/14/2007 1:09:54 AM # Q
I'm sure I'm not different from most users when I say there are basically 6 or 7 applications that I use regularly on my Palm and have for a number of years.

Not counting any games or those apps that I don't often use, I have 14 third-party apps that I use with regularity. Obviously I am a power user who uses his PDA heavily. And I'm sure that my list of apps looks different than UserB's list of apps, so having a robust offering of third-party apps is definitely a value for a lot of people who have purchased Palm's over the years.

If you can be satisfied with the iPhone in it's current state, great. I am not questioning whether or not it satisfies your needs (or any particular person's). (At the moment it still looks like a really awesome feature-phone to me.) I am just pointing out that your statement about the iPhone's "hacks" was very weak. So far, Apple is not interested in encouraging a true third-party economy. Maybe they will become so, and then the rest of us might be able to get all excited. But in your hurry to show freakout that he is wrong, don't go over-blowing the realities of the iPhone.

That brings up another point.

Of course you are free bring up all the additional points you want to, but I am only pointing out the flaw with that one point. I may or may not agree with anything else you've said. I'll let you know if there is anything else I want to argue about. ;)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
TooMuch @ 9/14/2007 7:08:21 AM # Q
"Yet I never seem to see iPhones in airports, train stations, waiting rooms and building lobbies."

There is an obvious reason the iPhone is not seen in most of these places...IT CANNOT BE USED AS A BUSINESS UNIT. I don't hear much talk about this fact. Of all the many truths about the iPhone, how can people ignore that the OFFICIAL policy of ATT/Apple is that you CANNOT use the iPhone on an ATT business account phone number. Of course there is a reason why this policy exists... :)

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
PacManFoo @ 9/14/2007 9:28:54 AM # Q
twrock,

Just curious what 14 apps you use regularly. Do you count system utilities in those?

I agree that the iPhone/iPod Touch is not perfect. There are lots of things I'd like to see Apple do differently with these devices. Unfortunately I don't see Palm coming out with anything to fill my needs either, too bad they killed off Lifedrive so early.

Freakout,

You implied originally that there was no way to add third party apps. Although Apple does not support this, there is a way and there are third party apps out there. You are right though that when Apple does an update these may be broken. I know you love your Treo, but if you wanted a device without a phone what direction would you go? There must be more people in this category then most on this board think or the whole using an iPod Touch as a PDA argument would not be so prevalent right now.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
twrock @ 9/14/2007 12:13:26 PM # Q
DateBk, DailyReader, Diet Assistant, iSilo, KDIC, mobileClock, MyBible, MetrO, Quizzler, SlovoEd, TCPMP, BackupMan (I suppose that's not "needed" on a device that has no removable memory!), SecureIt, Unit Converter Pro (believe it or not, UCP gets used a lot!)

Again, that doesn't count any games (I'm not "big" into games anyway) or system utilities like CardExportII (should have been built in), Thumbboard, DALauncher, Keyboard, PalmRevolt, ZLauncher (maybe this should be considered an app with all of the functionality it offers), or "less often" used apps like PalmPDF, GoogleMaps, CardTXT, HandZipper, etc.

I have complained bitterly about much of what Palm has done in recent years. I am very disappointed in my TX hardware quality. I'm frustrated that they scrimped on things like no mic, LED or vibrating alarm. And if they aren't going to offer a decent PDA upgrade, then at least they could offer something other than the "standard" Treo for me to switch to.

But some of those third-party apps I mentioned above would be very difficult to live without at this point. At the moment I have no assurance that Apple will "allow" the iPhone/iPod Touch to become a device that I can work with. I really hope that they do. At least then I'd have another option. Who knows, maybe Access can deliver or even one of the other smartphone makers. But if somehow all of this forces me to a WinMob device, you can be assured it won't be a Palm branded.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
buckeyetex315 @ 9/14/2007 3:05:35 PM # Q
I think that the iPhone (and it's new sibling, the iPod Touch) is alot closer to being a Palm-killer than anything else. Apple's focus since Job's return has been on the UI and even though the iPhone isn't perfect, it a pretty damn good first try, imho. We're all used to the PalmOS UI, but Apple's is pretty slick even though some functions are missing or work differently.

Palm (Colligan I think) was always saying that Apple didn't know what they were doing in the smartphone space. Well with a few additions, they can improve the iPhone and iPod Touch and wipe out Palm's market space all at one time.

I posted more details here: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8545/#137706 .

But how about this list to for what Apple needs to do to make the iPhone a GREAT device:

- develop a very low power 3G radio chip
- make sure the PIM functionality on the iPhone synchs ALL of Outlook's data
- go to Access and license a PalmOS emulator as a stopgap until they...
- open the platform to 3rd party apps & TEST them!

Also, for the iPod Touch:
- add a VOIP app

Many of the things above Apple has traditionally done and have expertise to complete in a timely manner.

Personally, I wish Palm would do something like this, but I think it is obvious now that they won't or can't.

Brent


Palm Vx --> Long wait --> Palm T|X

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
Surur @ 9/14/2007 3:36:39 PM # Q
The iPod Touch does not even have a microphone. Its an iPod, not a PDA.

Surur

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
hkklife @ 9/14/2007 3:56:12 PM # Q
What does Palm have on the TX that the Touch does not have? Quite a bit, in fact:


1. Removable memory card slot

2. Stylus

3. D-pad & hard app buttons

4. Bluetooth

5. IR

6. "Thousands" of 3rd party apps

7. Ability to input data on the fly into Calendar etc.

8. "Open standard" for bottom MultiConnector for stuff like audio in & out, serial connectivity etc.


What does the iPod Touch have that the TX does not?

1. 8/16GB of storage

2. The internal gyro screen rotate thingie

3. Superb build quality & sleek, thin styling

4. iTunes integration (ie a strong media-centric desktop software w/ strong sync capabilities) + the "wi-fi iTunes store" for buying songs when on the go.

5. Modern OS (with Safari, MultiTouch etc)

6. High-capacity internal battery & intelligent power management

7. Video out capabilities (up to 480p, in fact)

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
PacManFoo @ 9/14/2007 4:00:48 PM # Q
The iPod Touch does not even have a microphone. Its an iPod, not a PDA.

My TX doesn't have a microphone either. So what the heck is it?

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: More reasoned than Engadget's piece.
Surur @ 9/14/2007 4:03:31 PM # Q
Its a Palm, and thats the problem.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

More reasoned than FREAK!
jca666us @ 9/14/2007 4:40:20 PM # Q
>BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of "hundreds" of other phones that have hardware
>mute switches.

Go and search on verizon's or sprint's web site.

You're the one who imagines they're a journalist. Try investigating and you'll see that you're wrong.

You're grasping for straws when you say Palm innovated by putting in a switch to turn off the ringer on the phone! Hahahaha!!!

>You're right, it does. When Apple update their software, what happens to all those
>hacks? Ooops! Broken again until they're re-hacked

FREAK - What happens when Palm updates their OS and they break all of those apps?

Oh that's right? Palm doesn't update their OS. Stay stuck in the past FREAK!

Reply to this comment

Looks like all the big firms that are short that 25mil

wildmantrader @ 9/13/2007 5:51:04 PM # Q
shares are cashing their chips getting every negative article out they can but the share price is holding strong.
Reply to this comment

Colligan did one thing right: He licensed WinMob

Gekko @ 9/13/2007 8:39:44 PM # Q

However Palm has an alternative to Palm OS that, from the company's perspective, is a runaway bestseller. Palm licensed Windows Mobile from Microsoft and put it into a range of phones that only started shipping early last year. Colligan told analysts recently that sales had risen so far and fast that almost half of Palm's smartphone shipments used Microsoft's product. Late last year Palm committed to buying 1m licences a year from Microsoft for 2007 and 2008; in the past year, Palm shipped close to 3m smartphone handsets. Absent Linux, Windows "remains a key part of our strategy", Palm says.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/sep/13/guardianweeklytechnologysection.it

RE: Colligan did one thing right: He licensed WinMob
Foo Fighter @ 9/13/2007 10:21:36 PM # Q
You should read my interview with Fake Ed Colligan. You'll learn what really goes on behind closed doors are Palm. ;-)

Unfortunately Palm fumbled the ball there too. They licensed Windows Mobile and built lackluster hardware around it. The Treo 750 is a fat brick, and a whole lot of nothing in your pocket.

A creative development team under the auspice of ambitious leadership would have utilized the strengths that WindMob offered at the time, like multitasking and multimedia, and used that as base from which to create innovative new products that surpassed the competition. Not Palm.

Instead they chose the quick and dirty solution; slapped WinMob on just any old Treo reference design and fiddled with its Today screen. Oooh la la, how inspiring. You can see how monumentally well that did for them in the market. Because of that lackadaisical approach to product design, Treo became an also ran among smartphones. BlackBerry ate Palm's lunch and has risen to the top spite by a huge margin. Palm's greatest threat doesn't come from Microsoft, but RIM.

-------------------------------
http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Colligan did one thing right: He licensed WinMob
freakout @ 9/13/2007 11:37:42 PM # Q
Unfortunately Palm fumbled the ball there too. They licensed Windows Mobile and built lackluster hardware around it. The Treo 750 is a fat brick, and a whole lot of nothing in your pocket.

Yeah, totally. Except for the portable 3G broadband modem, touchscreen and decent battery life compared to comparable thinner devices. (Why does the Blackjack come with a spare battery in the box?)

RE: Colligan did one thing right: He licensed WinMob
Foo Fighter @ 9/13/2007 11:43:06 PM # Q
Except for the portable 3G broadband modem, touchscreen and decent battery life compared to comparable thinner devices.

Made irrelevant by the fact that scads of other WinMob touchscreen devices can be had which are thinner, have larger screens, built-in WiFi, and offer comparable or better battery life.

-------------------------------
http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Colligan did one thing right: He licensed WinMob
freakout @ 9/13/2007 11:52:29 PM # Q
^^ K, name them. Oh, and do those larger screen ones have a full, exposed QWERTY board?
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No Palm linux until 2009

craigdts @ 9/13/2007 11:14:32 PM # Q
" But even that may be slipping: though earlier Colligan said that would appear in 2008, Palm this week told the Guardian "it will be 12 to 18 months" before a Linux Palm appears."

I've been saying this since the foleo disaster, there is no way palm is going to get a palm linux device out next year. In fact, I don't even see the need for it. They should just go WM on high end and low end, and stay with garnet on low end (since all the development is done, they can maintain say 10% of their device sells to those palm users who are happy with its basic functionality).

In 2 years I am confident you will see palm doing this.

RE: No Palm linux until 2009
Surur @ 9/14/2007 6:16:16 AM # Q
OMG!

I would never have suspected they were so far behind. Why waste your money doing it at all then?

Surur

RE: No Palm linux until 2009 - uh...who says?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/14/2007 7:19:53 AM # Q
Colligan fairly recently said calendar year 2008 for that "new platform" phone so at the very least, as possibly already commented upon somewhere around here, I would expect PALM to minimally pull-a-PalmSource_Cobalt-release with said device to meet that stated timeframe.

RE: No Palm linux until 2009
cervezas @ 9/14/2007 10:40:31 AM # Q
I've been saying this since the foleo disaster, there is no way palm is going to get a palm linux device out next year. In fact, I don't even see the need for it. They should just go WM on high end and low end, and stay with garnet on low end...

What makes you think this decision is for Palm to make? We're talking about a mobile phone operating system here. The carriers are the customers and they create the requirements. Last I checked, things weren't going particularly well with Garnet OS on some major carriers like Sprint and Verizon.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: No Palm linux until 2009 - but somewhat OT
SeldomVisitor @ 9/14/2007 10:44:03 AM # Q
Gee...and you are the one who says PALM's going to put PalmOS on top of Linux in their PHONES!?

Hmmm...

RE: No Palm linux until 2009
craigdts @ 9/14/2007 11:04:39 AM # Q
"Gee...and you are the one who says PALM's going to put PalmOS on top of Linux in their PHONES!?
Hmmm..."

That was back when I believed that they had the talent to do it and the momentum w/ the treo 600 and 650 to draw talented developers.

3 years of stagnation and a corporate business plan that changes with the blowing of the wind changes my mind.

The time it will take for them to get a ROI for the development of a OS at this point will be too long for them to even take the risk (because as we know, even if they develop it doesn't mean they can use it.)

Palm has failed to make TWO new OSes.

"What makes you think this decision is for Palm to make?"

Your right, the decision is not palms but EPs, just like the foleo decision was EPs. Looks like with EP comes some financial accountability. The carriers argument is tired. Take a look at the numbers now 50% of devices are WM palm ships. . . Expect that number to continue growing till Palms OS is but a tiny niche like Palms PDA products. Like the PDA line it won't make sense for palm to invest additional R&D $ into a dead end.

RE: No Palm linux until 2009
SeldomVisitor @ 9/14/2007 11:11:49 AM # Q
Not you, craigdts, the poster of the post prior to mine.
RE: No Palm linux until 2009
hkklife @ 9/14/2007 12:23:34 PM # Q
Sprint seems to be the only carrier really standing behind Garnet at ALL these days. I still have a sneaking suspicion that we'll never see the 755p on Verizon. In fact, I have a feeling we'll never see anything from Palm not running WM on Verizon. The 755p for VZW has been delayed so long and is looking increasingly weak next to even the dumbphones Verizon's putting out that Verizon will probably use their muscle & clout and make Palm take 'em all back and/or apply whatever $ they've already paid to future Palm WinMob Treo shipments. So look for a blowout pricing of reflashed/rebranded 755p's on Sprint after the first of year (IMO)...

Verizon dragged their feet on releasing the Treo 600. They dragged their feet on the 650. They launched the 700p simultaneous with Sprint and look how well that model has fared over the past year!

I think Palm's going to start hoarding their cash reserves and throwing lots of rebranded WM devices ala 500v at the wall & hoping that something sticks. I doubt we'll ever see PLinux on a shipping device. The question is if they'll go ahead and EOL Garnet soon or try to eke out another year with it "as is" on el-cheapo devices like the Centro or if Palm will try to shore up Garnet with an "OS 5.5" and lift some of its most pressing limitations (A2DP support? >4gb file volumes? >128mb RAM? UMTS connectivity? Wi-fi, Bluetooth, and cellular stacks in a single device?).

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: No Palm linux until 2009
cervezas @ 9/14/2007 6:05:26 PM # Q
Gee...and you are the one who says PALM's going to put PalmOS on top of Linux in their PHONES!?

I don't really expect Palm OS just shimmed on top of Linux, no. I imagine there will be a Garnet virtual machine, similar to what ACCESS has in ALP. It will run in its own Linux process so a crashing Garnet app can take down the VM, but not the whole system. It will probably be fairly sandboxed in terms of the resources it can access on the rest of the system. And the underlying OS might do things like monitor the health of the Garnet process and kill it if it detects something has gone wrong like a freeze.

I also expect it would probably be phased out within a few years, first by doing things like releasing desktop software that only syncs with apps written against the new API, and later by shipping phones without it.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: No Palm linux until 2009
SeldomVisitor @ 9/14/2007 6:08:33 PM # Q
I do not think this would be cost-effective for PALM.

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my 700P

jnunez @ 9/14/2007 10:03:32 PM # Q
I won't compare my 700P to an iPhone or WM but I will say this. Extrememly under-powered! I recently saw an Sony EReader which was able to render s page from a PDF faster than the 700P.

Robust Applications? With the exception of PocketTunes and Patience all of the other apps came with the phone and I crash a lot! every 2 days.

I actually was hoping to get Folio it would have been the best PDA for email, pdf and possibly an ssh client.

Palm should license Zaurus' OS and build on it.

Pilot 1000 -> IIIe(w/ Ricochet wireless modem) -> Handspring -> 700P -> ????

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