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PalmSource Drops Mac Synchronization in Cobalt

updated In a surprise announcement at the developer conference, PalmSource revealed that Palm OS Cobalt will no longer offer synchronization with the Mac OS. This marks a departure as previous versions of the Palm OS had long shipped with Mac compatible hotsync software. update: PalmSource has issued a statement clarifying their position on the issue.

During his Keynote speech on the new features of Cobalt, PalmSource Chief Products Officer Larry Slotnick revealed that Palm OS Cobalt will not ship with a Mac OS synchronization client. In effect, PalmSource is dropping native Mac support and will no longer develop a Mac Palm Desktop client.

PalmSource made the decision due to changes in the hotsync architecture and how the new PIM apps work. The new PIM apps have be re-architected to more closely resemble Microsoft Outlook fields and the internal database use a new SQL like schema to store records.

Fortunately, a third party company, Mark/Space, has pledged to make a version of their Missing Sync client for Cobalt. It will be released later this year in anticipation of the first Palm OS Cobalt devices. Missing Sync for Cobalt will enable users to connect and synchronize information between Palm OS Cobalt devices and Macs running Mac OS X via USB, network, WiFi or Bluetooth.

Missing Sync for Palm OS will include synchronization support enabling users to synchronize iCal calendar events, to-do items, and Mac OS X Address Book contact information. It will also work with existing Palm OS conduits written for Mac OS X, providing synchronization support for other Mac applications currently synchronized by users (such as Pocket Quicken, FileMaker, Entourage, Meeting Maker, etc.). Users of non-wireless devices will benefit from the ability to tie into their Mac's Internet connection, taking full advantage of email download and Web browsing capabilities. Missing Sync for Palm OS also supports AvantGo synchronization, resulting in quick downloads of news, weather, sports, stock quotes, maps, and movie listings, among others.

UPDATE:
PalmSource Cheif Competitve Officer, Michael Mace, has issued a statement direcct from PalmSource regarding the issue in the article comments, "PalmSource is fortunate to have a great Palm OS developer community who provide solutions for Macintosh compatibility today. Palm OS provides an open and flexible architecture and allows its licensees to decide whether to ship a Mac compatibility solution with their Palm Powered device. (One such solution is provided by Mark/Space.) We are continuing our efforts with Apple to provide compatibility between Palm OS and Macintosh."

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Big mistake

UZI4U182 @ 2/11/2004 5:12:34 PM #
Not good...not good at all...

UZI4U182@suscom.net
Main PDA: NX70v + WL100
http://clieflash.shorturl.com
RE: Big mistake
mikecane @ 2/11/2004 5:20:48 PM #
I'm glad I ditched the Mac years ago.

But I agree this is not good. I've come across many people who've wanted to buy CLIEs and went with Palm due to the lack of Mac sync software.

Now I wonder how many fomer PalmOS users will be interested in this:

http://pocketmac.net/

RE: Big mistake
Midge @ 2/11/2004 6:26:08 PM #
I wish Palm had framed things in a positive light. Mark/Space is an excellent company, and I have faith their product will be superb. Palm's Mac PIM support has been mediocre at best for years. (especially regarding fields on the desktop not matching fields on the Palm, and therefore not syncing.) It will be unfortunate to have to pay extra for a Mac interface, but it will be an improvement.

It seems that Palm is trying to alienate Mac users in the way it made its announcement. Certainly not a goodwill gesture.

RE: Big mistake
bleedingedge @ 2/11/2004 7:59:29 PM #
Wow, Mikecane, from all of your previous posts about handhelds you seemed like a bright guy. Would have thought you were a Mac person. Oh well. Lame... for you. : )

I have read many posts on Mac forums about this announcement. Many have said they will never buy Palm again - some, like me, after 6 or more years of loyalty. Many have also said smartphones will be the way to go now or iPod plus mobile phone.

This isn't an option for me. I do a lot more with my handheld than keep a few addresses and memos. I keep around ten full length medical refences in there and consult them to help me care for hundreds of patients each month. Thousands of doctors do this and the number grows daily. Within this community I'll venture to guess that Mac users number more than 3% as is often quoted for the general public. I hope the future is bright for us as far as handheld computing and Mac syncing - for us and our patients.

RE: Big mistake
wisdcom @ 2/11/2004 10:22:31 PM #
I just had to speak out, too.

PalmSource, now this is truly a different Palm company, far from the one that we used to know.

When I first read that OS 6 will be made "more Outlook" compatible, I was a little worried, but just didn't think PalmSource would be that stupid...

Yes, I couldn't find a better adjustive.

PalmSource is the software-only company, and it's supposed to concentrate and be good at writing its software, and it has under its wings a lot of potentials with the successful Palm OS 5 and the technology from Be OS.

But now, this decision really really makes them look bad. Following Microsoft Outlook so blindly that they decide to, in the next major upgrade, drop support entirely for the much more user friendly and well-designed Mac OS X? And it is from the company that created and defined the first truly useful PDA?

Even when I was on a PC, I didn't use Outlook despite its many many features, and it's not that I haven't tried. I converted to Outlook and I really tried to like it, for a few times.

Palm OS could have benefited from having the entire Mac market...

I wonder who is responsible for this decision, and I wonder if this person/group will be able to take the long term consequences of this decision...


RE: Big mistake
mikecane @ 2/12/2004 12:29:56 AM #
>>>Wow, Mikecane, from all of your previous posts about handhelds you seemed like a bright guy. Would have thought you were a Mac person.

For the longest time I was. But I got sick of asking, "Is there a MAC VERSION of that?"

Let Steve Jobs go ask.

Just because I'm using Gates's stuff doesn't mean I *like* it. I wish Mac had the larger market share.

RE: Big mistake
Glory Daze @ 2/12/2004 1:01:31 AM #
I am a Mac user. Longer than a Palm user. Have been looking at Mac laptops but figured I'd upgrade to the new Palm when one came out. Not gonna happen now. I'll just keep the old Tungsten T for my pocket and get a new laptop. Kinda tired of messin' with the small screen for work anyway. Thanks Palm ... for nothing.
RE: Big mistake, yeah
ray00pal @ 2/12/2004 2:30:32 AM #
Why drop Mac support so late? Should have dropped it two to three years ago! Mac is such an out dated. Using two CPUs to do one CPU's job. lol.

RE: Big mistake
rory @ 2/12/2004 5:56:37 AM #
Hehe that's funny, having dual processors is a bad thing? LOL dude, get a clue! Give me a dual processor 64bit Mac with a 1GHz front side bus over your Pentium any day of the week :)

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Big mistake
wendo @ 2/12/2004 6:26:44 AM #
I agree, this is a big mistake by Palm. I utilize both Macs and PC's, however, I primarily use my Palm with the Mac OS. (My laptop is a Mac.)

Perhaps Apple will now consider an Apple branded and produced PDA. Heck, do for PDA's what they did to the MP3 market with the iPod.

If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

-----

Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3

RE: Big mistake
SaabCaptain @ 2/12/2004 9:00:36 AM #
The problem with PalmSource vs. Palm is how you all confuse them! PalmSource makes the OS, and they have dropped Mac support. HOWEVER Palm, a totally different company, makes handhelds and can choose to bundle Mac sync software if they so choose. In fact Palm in the Tungsten T3 and E has included substantal OS revisions that PalmSource DID NOT supply.

It is VERY possible that Palm will include Mac sync software, although not software produce by PalmSource.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, Casio E-11, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, Tungsten T, iPaq 1945, Tungsten E.

RE: Big mistake
rory @ 2/12/2004 10:19:52 AM #
Yes PalmSource and PalmOne are different companies and the point is PalmOne is now primarily a hardware company, they are no longer in the business of writing software, so any lack of support from PalmSource is going to be a blow which ever way you look at it.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?
RE: Big mistake
acaltabiano @ 2/12/2004 11:39:23 AM #
BOOOOO!!! BOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Didn't this company start out as an independent-minded organization determined to "change" the way we did our computing? Weren't they supposed to be so infuential and Innovative as to make other platforms conform to them? Now, like sheep, they are giving in and following the herd. The PD for PC already sucks. It runs hella better on my Mac than it ever did on the PC, and is much more functional. But, now, those days are gone. Yeah, keep "innovating," palm. Good work. You suck. How long 'till you accept a buyout from MS and become PPC? I have seen it printed elsewhere that while the Mac marketshare is reletively small, a large portion of Palm users are indeed Mac users. Alienating your base, eh? Going to the Dark Side, eh? I HOPE Apple devises their own PDA again.

RE: Big mistake
SaabCaptain @ 2/12/2004 12:39:52 PM #
rory: PalmOne is primary focused on hardware but just like Sony they will continue to provide software that makes their handhelds unique. Clie has a new organizer suite with their handhelds, PalmOne has been providing new PIM enhancements not made by PalmSource.

Based on some preliminary word from PalmOne they have stated THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT MAC USERS IN THEIR COBALT HANDHELDS.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, Casio E-11, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, Tungsten T, iPaq 1945, Tungsten E.

RE: Big mistake
Fernando @ 2/12/2004 1:01:29 PM #
i don't know if you gyus know this but currently the t3's don't support the latest version of mac os x. it looks like palmone has dropped the ball on mac's too

RE: Big mistake
a_nonamiss @ 2/12/2004 2:42:21 PM #
::quote::
wendo @ 2/12/2004 6:26:44 AM wrote:

I agree, this is a big mistake by Palm. I utilize both Macs and PC's, however, I primarily use my Palm with the Mac OS. (My laptop is a Mac.)

Perhaps Apple will now consider an Apple branded and produced PDA. Heck, do for PDA's what they did to the MP3 market with the iPod.

If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

::End Quote::

Heh that's kinda funny. You see, if you were a true geek up on your computer history, you'd know that Apple *INVENTED* the PDA in the early 1990's. They sunk tons of money into R&D for the Apple Newton, which was unfortunately a huge flop for the company and was one of the factors that almost sunk them. Ironically, while it was never successful, it was the inspiration for the Palm company, who set out to design a leaner, faster and smaller device. They created the Palm Pilot and the rest is history.
On a related note, you can still find tons of Newtons on eBay. They still have a very loyal, albeit very small, following of nerds who continue to write drivers and software for them. You can actually use Wi-Fi on a Newton, and that's something you can't even do on a Palm! Despite its age, it was still arguably more powerful than a Palm until the T|T came out.

Arthur

Palm Pilot 1000 > Palm Pilot Professional > Palm III > Palm M100 > Sony Clié PEG-T415 > Palm T|T3

RE: Big mistake
ganoe @ 2/12/2004 3:20:48 PM #
> Mac is such an out dated. Using two CPUs to do one CPU's job. lol.

Yeah, like I mean I've been using dual CPU systems with Windows NT/XP for years now. Very useful when Windows lets an app run amuck on the system, then I might just barely have enough CPU left to kill the app without having to boot the system. LOL. Windoze rulez dude!

As mikecane put it, "I'm glad I ditched Windows a month ago." Err, maybe that isn't what he said.

RE: Big mistake
otter @ 2/12/2004 4:05:25 PM #
"Palm OS could have benefited from having the entire Mac market..."

Yeah, I agree. All 8 of you.

RE: Big mistake
otter @ 2/12/2004 4:07:46 PM #
And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA.
RE: Big mistake
statik @ 2/12/2004 6:11:36 PM #
"I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped."

The zeolots aren't restricted to the macintosh camp. I develop on both PC and Mac machines and have to say I see a lot more zeolots on the PC side.

As for Palmsource not supporting Mac? I'll hold my opinion to see what PalmOne does.


RE: Big mistake
Michael Mace @ 2/12/2004 6:26:32 PM #
Midge wrote:

>>I wish Palm had framed things in a positive light. Mark/Space is an excellent company, and I have faith their product will be superb.


Amen to both sentences.

We appreciate all the comments folks are making, and we are listening. The company asked me to post the comment below:

"PalmSource is fortunate to have a great Palm OS developer community who provide solutions for Macintosh compatibility today. Palm OS provides an open and flexible architecture and allows its licensees to decide whether to ship a Mac compatibility solution with their Palm Powered device. (One such solution is provided by Mark/Space.) We are continuing our efforts with Apple to provide compatibility between Palm OS and Macintosh."

Mike
CCO, PalmSource

RE: Big mistake
wisdcom @ 2/12/2004 8:16:31 PM #
> "Yeah, I agree. All 8 of you."

Haha, count again. I don't know about you, but I would be pretty happy to sell a product and have the entire Mac market all to myself.

Zillions of Windows out there does not change this; it's a separate opportunity. It shouldn't be an "either-or": PalmSource could have had the Mac market and keep on competing with Pocket PC on Windows.

---

For a major upgrade, saying that they drop support entirely for one platform, and "follow" another (a competitor!), has so many negative effects, psychological and otherwise.

Since Cobalt is for the high-end, they could have just ditched pre-OS X support and concentrate on OS X and beyond. Oh well...

---

> "And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA."

I hope it was not directed at me, but if so:

Did I suggest anything like that? If it makes you feel better, I have more Windows machines then Macs here... ;)


RE: Big mistake
TTrules @ 2/12/2004 9:25:24 PM #
ray00pal, you don't know what you're talking about. Two processors is definately better than one. I like macs.

One Palm to rule them all!
RE: Big mistake
wendo @ 2/12/2004 9:29:44 PM #
Yes, Arthur, I'm fully aware that Apple kick started the PDA movement with the Newton.


To Mike from PalmSource:

I do appreciate you taking the time to comment here regarding the change regarding native Macintosh support. Yes, the fact that Mark Space develops drivers for the Mac is advantageous.

However, the fact that built in native support will not exist in Cobalt is disconcerting nonetheless. As a Palm supporter since my first Palm 5000, the lack of Mac support in future OS's will make me re-evaluate whether I will continue to buy PalmSource/PalmOne products. Instead of always upgrading within the Palm product matrix, I will now scrutinize other platforms since the Palm OS no longer offers a compelling benefit over other Handheld OS's for users who use a Mac to sync with.

I understand the decision to do it, I'm not naive. However, I wonder if the full consequences of this decision were truly realized before this decision was made.

We shall see...

-----

Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3

RE: Big mistake
DWD @ 2/12/2004 11:39:29 PM #
In agreement: Wow. Palm dropping native Mac support. Not good for Palm or Apple and a little too cozy with Microsoft. *shudder*

RE: Big mistake
mikecane @ 2/13/2004 12:18:13 AM #
>>>As mikecane put it, "I'm glad I ditched Windows a month ago." Err, maybe that isn't what he said.

ganoe: Switch to what?! Linux?

Despite the outcry here, Mac users are a minority on PIC too.

About an hour ago, BBC World Service reported that portions of Windows source code has been leaked onto the Net. Which version and how much has not ben specified. But perhaps this could be a serious blow to MS... I wouldn't mourn if it was a fatal blow!

RE: Big mistake
joej @ 2/13/2004 1:06:36 AM #
This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are:

1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and

2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well,

this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company.

On a personal level, Mark/Space will probably provide an implementation on OS X that is better than any PalmSource solution on Windows (with Outlook as the driving force???!!!!). I languished with Palm on Win95, 98 and XP until I went back to the Mac (having been battered by crashes, viruses, poorly written programs, conflicts). The Mark/Space Missing Sync provided interfaces with iPhoto, iTunes, etc. If they add email, and all the reported features, it might end up the best solution on any platform.

Palm Personal, Newton, Sharp Mobilon, Psion 5, Palm III, Psion 5mx, Visor Deluxe, Clie N760, Tungsten T, T2, T3

Apple is DEAD in enterprise/corporate world
;-) @ 2/13/2004 1:44:04 AM #
This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are:

1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and

2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well,

this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company.

Cut the BS, Junior. Organizations like standards and Windows is the standard. Whether or not it deserves to be. I suppose you and your coven of "others who feel the same way also" will also be recommending Netscape, WordPerfect, Eudora and Lotus 1-2-3 for your Fortune 500 companies?

Be honest: you're 11 years old and are reading Palminfocenter on your Mommy's AOL PC in the basement. How droll.


It's just too big.

RE: Big mistake
ganoe @ 2/13/2004 6:15:23 AM #
> ganoe: Switch to what?! Linux?

Switched to Mac last month. I got tired of waiting to easily do in Windows what I could do in Unix over a decade ago.

RE: Big mistake
otter @ 2/13/2004 7:23:54 AM #
"It shouldn't be an 'either-or'"

I agree. I didn't say Windows was superior. MS should have more competition, but to echo mikecane's words, the main reason I bought a PC in the first place was because when I walked into computer stores there was always a huge section of software and hardware for PCs - including things I wanted - and a little corner display of Mac stuff that was mildly interesting.

> "And I have nothing against Macs. I just don't care for the zealots who use them and suggest anyone who doesn't use them is somehow handicapped. BIOYA."

I hope it was not directed at me..."

It wasn't directed at anyone, just an observation based on my experience.

RE: Big mistake
Wollombi @ 2/13/2004 7:43:49 PM #
>>"If Apple came out with a PDA, I'd buy it in a heartbeat."<<

What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac? You know, overpriced, underpowered, and using 3 year-old technology. To this day, while it may have saved Apple's skin, I cannot respect taking advantage of gullible buyers by adding "pretty colors" to and charging full price for a product that was essentially the Mac of 3 years previous. What a rip-off. You would buy that PDA if it came out? Or would you expect Jobs and Co. to actually produce something modern and capable? If your choice is the former over the latter, I suggest buying the Newton off eBay (at least then you won't pay today's prices for yesterday's technology). Me, I would prefer something more akin to the funcionality of OSX on the PDA, but not in PPC fashion.

>>"Didn't this company start out as an independent-minded organization determined to "change" the way we did our computing? Weren't they supposed to be so infuential and Innovative as to make other platforms conform to them? Now, like sheep, they are giving in and following the herd. The PD for PC already sucks. It runs hella better on my Mac than it ever did on the PC, and is much more functional. But, now, those days are gone. Yeah, keep "innovating," palm. Good work. You suck. How long 'till you accept a buyout from MS and become PPC? I have seen it printed elsewhere that while the Mac marketshare is reletively small, a large portion of Palm users are indeed Mac users. Alienating your base, eh? Going to the Dark Side, eh? I HOPE Apple devises their own PDA again."<<

Hmm...before your emotional and poorly thought out rant, I believed that Mac users were generally intelligent and rational people. Please don't try to prove that impression wrong a second time.

>>"However, the fact that built in native support will not exist in Cobalt is disconcerting nonetheless. As a Palm supporter since my first Palm 5000, the lack of Mac support in future OS's will make me re-evaluate whether I will continue to buy PalmSource/PalmOne products. Instead of always upgrading within the Palm product matrix, I will now scrutinize other platforms since the Palm OS no longer offers a compelling benefit over other Handheld OS's for users who use a Mac to sync with."<<

Perhaps you should re-evaluate that position. Let's think about the only real alternative at the moment, PPC, or Winblows Mobile, or whatever they want to call it these days. PalmOS is easy to use, has a very intuitive interface, is powerful, and can get the work done. All of the qualities you bought you Mac for. So you are telling me that because PalmSource left it to the 3rd parties (who often do a better job, BTW) to create a program to sync, you will go look at PPC, which doesn't sync with Mac out of the box either, and adds a plethora of it's own problems and usability issues? Please. With this kind of logic as it's main user base, Apple really is in trouble.

>>"This is a BIG MISTAKE. Let's see....for those of us that are:

1) in large organizations with influence over IT purchasing and are increasingly viewing OS X and Macintosh as a very attractive option for the company to invest in (longer life cycle, stable OS, better security, virtually no viruses, better ROI, XServe, etc), and

2) were considering LARGE enterprise Palm purchases as well,

this is a DEFINATE NEGATIVE on going forward with such a big Palm order. I know others who feel the same way also. As OS X continues to attract attention in enterprise, PalmSource will miss out on customers like my company."<<

You're considering Macs for enterprise use? Unless you are a graphics shop, you better reconsider before you do something that loses you your job. Mac OSX has a lot going for it on the consumer level, but for most enterprises it isn't there yet. Additionally, while almost nobody likes it (myself included), MS is the maker/producer of the products that are the defacto standard for enterprises at the moment, meaning you want compatibility with the organizations your company does business with, or you don't do business. Period.

As far as saying that PalmSource will "miss out on customers" like yourself, let me make a couple of points (and I'll go slow so you can understand):

1.)PalmSource only has licensees for customers, not individuals like yourself. Unless you are going to manufacture and market a PDA the runs PalmOS, you as an individual are inconsequential to PalmSource. Licensees make the handheld units that you will buy despite your statment, because:...

2.)...the only real alternative out there right now is Pocket PC. Yeah, you're going to buy those because PalmSource snubbed your pet OS and pissed you off. Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion. I'd much rather see a few reasonable folks here than a lot of zealots who don't bother to think before they speak. To finish off this second point, I'll refer you to the statement above, where I mention that PalmOS has all of the advantages that you ostensibly love Macs for.

While I generally disagree with "the emoticon" (aka ;-)) who is every bit as retarded, he makes a point before he goes into his psychotic episode of insults. Windows/Exchage are the defacto standards, and that's what most businesses like to see, whether it's the best product or not.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Big mistake
rory @ 2/13/2004 9:28:44 PM #
Sean: You're way out on a number of points which I'd like to correct you on:

"What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac? You know, overpriced, underpowered, and using 3 year-old technology. To this day, while it may have saved Apple's skin, I cannot respect taking advantage of gullible buyers by adding "pretty colors" to and charging full price for a product that was essentially the Mac of 3 years previous."

Obviously it's kind of silly to say you will buy something as soon a manufacturer announces it regardless of specs etc, but I'd take issue with your comments on the iMac. It's not designed for power users, it's designed for people who want a computer which they can take out of the box, plug-in and be on the Internet within 10 minutes, who don't want to worry about viruses and worms trashing their computer every week etc. And honestly, the average home user doesn't need a 3GHz machine to surf the web, write e-mail, manage digital photos or listen to music. The argument about 'power' could easily be levied at Palm devices. Sure you can now get them with fast CPUs, but until OS 6 is out you can't make use of that extra processing power for anything particularly useful.

I will also remind you that Apple's last Newton PDA, discontinued in 1998, had a 166MHz ARM processor in, considerably faster than most Palms until recently, and still faster than Zire 71, T|E etc, so even if they did use 3 year old technology it would easily be comparable to a current Palm device.

With regards to the user suggesting they switch to PPC, why not? If they have to use a 3rd party utility to sync with Palm OS, why not use one for PPC? I agree that the user interface is inferior to Palm OS, but they are cheaper and faster than Palms and tend to have better expandability. As most PC users demonstrate, these are clearly trade offs people are happy to make or Apple would be the defacto desktop standard.

"You're considering Macs for enterprise use? Unless you are a graphics shop, you better reconsider before you do something that loses you your job."

I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about here. What do you think enterprises use their servers for? File storage, e-mail, directory services, web/intranet hosting? Mac OS X Server can do all these things really well and happily works in a cross platform environment with NO per-user costs and while being much easier to use than a Linux server. Anyone who reads business oriented technology sites is well aware of the increasingly large waves Apple is creating in that sector. Windows on the desktop doesn't mean necessarily Windows in the server room.

"Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion. I'd much rather see a few reasonable folks here than a lot of zealots who don't bother to think before they speak."

Hello? Here you are accusing Mac users of being zealots because of their choice of computer, and here you are being a Palm zealot because someone might switch to what you consider is an inferior PDA.

If anything I would expect Palm users to be able to emphasize with what Mac users are put through for not going along with the juggernaut of mediocrity.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

RE: Big mistake
wendo @ 2/14/2004 2:03:56 AM #
;-) said, “Cut the BS, Junior. Organizations like standards and Windows is the standard.”

Being rude and condescending doesn’t help your case one bit. In fact, you sound like the child given time on daddy’s computer. Be adult and have a grown up conversation by debating the issue, not insulting the person with opposing opinions. As is evidenced, no one on this site takes you very seriously because of your presentation.

Secondly, just because organizations like standards and Windows is a majority standard doesn’t discount the fact that many companies (even non-graphic houses) are considering Mac OS X as an alternative to Windows and Linux. Is the base large? No, obviously, but it is slowly growing. But OS X’s adoption rate is still better than most people anticipated.

;-) also said, “Be honest: you're 11 years old and are reading Palminfocenter on your Mommy's AOL PC in the basement. How droll.”

Again, one would be willing to consider your points and opinions with more attention if you chose to address others with more respect than shown here. One could argue that the child in the basement is you.

===

Wollombi said, “What a blind and naive statement. What if the product turned out to be the PDA version of the iMac?”

First of all, I am not blind nor naïve. You chose to take seriously an obvious overstatement if Apple released an Apple PDA. The point I was trying to make was that if Apple were to release a PDA I would seriously consider purchasing one.

However, before laying the money down, I wouldn’t just buy it without researching its specifications, evaluating whether it fit my needs, and how well it integrated into my computer system(s). As a long time purchaser of many computer platforms I do my research before spending my money. As to your comments about the iMac, it shows how little you know the iMac and what it’s purpose is in Apple’s retail strategy. Someone addressed this better than I and those comments are above.

The second quote you reference wasn’t from me, though one wouldn’t know that since you weren’t careful in attributing quotes.

However, I will comment on what you said; Wollombi also said, “Hmm...before your emotional and poorly thought out rant, I believed that Mac users were generally intelligent and rational people. Please don't try to prove that impression wrong a second time.”

As I said above, insulting the people your debating with is not a strong tactic. More than naught it only weakens your argument and makes it sound as though you’re not debating others seriously; only that your primary purpose is to insult and condescend.

Wollombi went on to further say, “Perhaps you should re-evaluate that position. Let's think about the only real alternative at the moment, PPC, or Winblows Mobile, or whatever they want to call it these days.”

Why do I need to re-evaluate my position and who are you to tell me to do so? Because Palm OS Cobalt will not offer native support for Macs, it does nothing to distinguish itself from the Windows Mobile platform; as well as other, less popular, platforms such as Symbian. Therefore, since there is no native support for the computer I choose to sync my PDA with, it is only logical to consider the other Handheld OS’s on the market.

And yes, because PalmSource will now leave it to third parties for syncing, I will look at what other handheld OS options are available to me. PPC doesn’t sync out of the box for Macs, however a third party developer sells PocketMac for syncing. From what I’ve read about it, it’s quite a robust product. Why shouldn’t I consider PPC’s now? Units are better priced in relation to options offered, there are more vendors which in turn offers more competition, and more units offer much more in functionality than Palm OS can hope to offer to date. For instance, for the similar price of a TT3 I can have a unit that not only includes Bluetooth but WiFi as well.

In my opinion, to discount any other handheld OS and stick with the Palm (despite it no longer offering me native support) is nothing more than being a zealot for Palm only. Because, frankly, your advocating a position regarding the Palm OS that you in turn decry in Mac users.

In fact, you show said bias towards Palm by your comments about PPC, “you will go look at PPC, which doesn't sync with Mac out of the box either, and adds a plethora of it's own problems and usability issues? Please. With this kind of logic as it's main user base, Apple really is in trouble.”

The Palm OS in not without its own problems and usability issues either. But to state that Palm is better than PPC only shows your bias with regard to the Palm OS.

The additional quotes in your comments are not from me though, again, I would point out that if you would restrain from being condescending one would put more stock in your arguments.

Lastly, Wollombi said, “Yeah, you're going to buy those because PalmSource snubbed your pet OS and pissed you off. Good riddance to you from the Palm community then, is my opinion.”

No, you’re not behaving like a zealot at all. The person who will now consider other handheld platforms is because they’re not going to buy Palm OS automatically anymore.

-----

Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3, ???

RE: Big mistake
tychay @ 2/14/2004 3:56:53 AM #
Michael,

I'm sure people would be more inclined to take your word for it if Larry Slotnick wasn't quoted in three separate sites in three different ways as saying that PalmSource was dropping Mac support in Palm Desktop AND HotSync with a offensive air as if this was a good thing.

It wouldn't be so bad if Palm had not support Macs for so long. For instance, as a Linux desktop user, I just shrug my shoulders.

I'm sure there is some spreadsheet showing dwindling Mac owner purchases. I know at one time 15% of Mac owners had a PDA which would put it well above the 3% figure when translated into Palm numbers. However, I'm just as sure that marketshare IS decreasing and, while some PC people here are wrong in not realizing the inroads Mac OS X has made in enterprise, their total enterprise market is rather tiny (but then again, Windows is small too and not growing as fast as Linux).

What I see is that the Mac is the first platform to actually build desktop synchronization between the computer and a myriad of devices (Palm, cell phones, PDA, multiple computers via internet, and even PocketPC with Missing Sync). Given that most PDA users (NOT your typical reader of PIC) just use a Palm for Address Book and maybe Memo Pad or Date Book, I'd expect that a number of people dropped the PDA from their budget and made do with a cell phone or iPod via synchronization (they sure aren't using them for data entry because one can't do it at all and the other requires you be a teenage european to have developed the motor skills necessary to triple-tap).

But the Mac is a harbinger. Standards like iCalendar, vCard and SyncML spell a new future where PalmSource is going to have to confront vis-a-vis new devices running previously beaten operating systems: embedded Linux, PocketPC, Symbian, etc. For instance, what will then happen when Microsoft integrates their knock off of iSync with... Longhorn if the PalmOS already can't compete with a relatively captive audience in the Mac world.

Especially when everyone and their aunt knows that PDA sales have flattened.

That's why I think that this news is a bad sign for Palm enthusiasts.

(And here I was exciting to think that Palm finally got out of the dark ages by realizing that supporting an open source toolchain is not just a good idea, but necessary for their very survival. Remember even WindRiver stopped fighting Linux recently and they have a far larger market and far more to lose.)

Finally, right now in the Mac world, iSync currently piggy backs off HotSync through a conduit (that needs to be installed by hand no less) not replaces it. I can't speak for future plans or current negotiations with Apple and 3rd party developers like MarkSpace, but saying that PalmSource has no plans on continuing to develop HotSync on the Mac is no less than a death sentence for Palm and Mac, despite all your attempts to mitigate the PalmOS 5/6 transition giving them names liek "Cobalt". Common sense, having worked at Apple, would predict their reaction to a T. (Yes, I can use a java based solution or a port from Linux to sync, but if tried you see they just won't get traction among Mac users.)

So take off your shoe, and roll up a sock and stick it in Larry's mouth.

(Ironically, Be, Inc. could be troubled to rewrite an entire OS to be compatible with Mac back in 1996 when they were competing with NeXT to be bought out, but in 2004 when computers build so much faster, they can't be troubled to devote a couple programmers to update tiny little HotSync. Go read Larry's comments with that perspective, they're quite amusing especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is. Then again, he said something about the RAM based filesystem's future in the Palm, which, given Be's innovation in the area of metadata and filesystems makes me wonder if he even understands BeOS at all...)

--
terry chay

http://www.mycasanetwork.com/- Personal Monitoring Services

RE: Big mistake
Chameleon @ 2/14/2004 7:27:10 AM #
I haven't read all the comments, but my first reaction to the news that Palm is dropping support for Mac OS X was that it is a political decision and not a technical one. Has there been some sort of break down in relations between the two companies?
RE: Good riddance to the Mac Moonies™ ;-)
;-) @ 2/14/2004 4:54:43 PM #
especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is.

I love it when you people pull BS "data" out of your arses and pretend it's real. Why don't you explain exactly how you came up with that number of active Palm users syncing with Macs?

Actual Mac market (percent of desktops in use) is probably between 1 - 3%. Windows is likely 97 - 98%. Somehow those 1 - 3% Mac users make up 15% of the Palm market? Yeah, right.

Palm has sold around 30 million PDAs since they started out. In your bizarre world, all of these are still in use. None have broken, been put in the back of a drawer or are in landfill sites. And each of those PDAs is being used by a different person. Yeah, right.

Palm isn't stupid enough to not have done the research into what their user base is currently syncing to on the desktop. Here's a more reasonable estimate:

8 million Palms in active use. 5% syncing to Macs = 400,000 customers. Many of these people already use or are aware of The Missing Sync by Mark/Space. Many others use Bluetooth syncing. Many others don't sync at all, since with the advent of external memory cards syncing isn't required for installing or backing up Palms. OK, so exactly how many people does that leave as being affected by this change? 50,000? 10,000? 5,000? Whatever the exact number - and no matter how (annoyingly) vocal they are on the fanboy sites - it's a vanishingly small percentage of Palm's user base. A number Palm could wisely discount. Palm's main mistake was the crude manner in which they dismissed the fanatics. A better solution would have been to announce in that they would "unfortunately" no longer be able to offer a Mac Palm Desktop but would be working "closely" with Mark/Space etc. to ensure easy syncing with Mac continues. And maybe offer a coupon for The Missing Sync for anyone buying a new Palm in 2004.

Palm should know better than to arouse the Raving Mac Zealots - a lot of Palm employees formerly worked at Apple.


It's just too big.

RE: Good riddance to the Mac Moonies™ ;-)
;-) @ 2/14/2004 4:54:43 PM #
especially when you consider what 15% of 20-30 million users is.

I love it when you people pull BS "data" out of your arses and pretend it's real. Why don't you explain exactly how you came up with that number of active Palm users syncing with Macs?

Actual Mac market (percent of desktops in use) is probably between 1 - 3%. Windows is likely 97 - 98%. Somehow those 1 - 3% Mac users make up 15% of the Palm market? Yeah, right.

Palm has sold around 30 million PDAs since they started out. In your bizarre world, all of these are still in use. None have broken, been put in the back of a drawer or are in landfill sites. And each of those PDAs is being used by a different person. Yeah, right.

Palm isn't stupid enough to not have done the research into what their user base is currently syncing to on the desktop. Here's a more reasonable estimate:

8 million Palms in active use. 5% syncing to Macs = 400,000 customers. Many of these people already use or are aware of The Missing Sync by Mark/Space. Many others use Bluetooth syncing. Many others don't sync at all, since with the advent of external memory cards syncing isn't required for installing or backing up Palms. OK, so exactly how many people does that leave as being affected by this change? 50,000? 10,000? 5,000? Whatever the exact number - and no matter how (annoyingly) vocal they are on the fanboy sites - it's a vanishingly small percentage of Palm's user base. A number Palm could wisely discount. Palm's main mistake was the crude manner in which they dismissed the fanatics. A better solution would have been to announce in that they would "unfortunately" no longer be able to offer a Mac Palm Desktop but would be working "closely" with Mark/Space etc. to ensure easy syncing with Mac continues. And maybe offer a coupon for The Missing Sync for anyone buying a new Palm in 2004.

Palm should know better than to arouse the Raving Mac Zealots - a lot of Palm employees formerly worked at Apple.


It's just too big.

RE: Big mistake
rory @ 2/14/2004 5:57:51 PM #
Re: Face guy

Dude stop trying to stir people up it just makes /you/ look dumb.

Palms have a *much* shorter life span than a desktop computer, be it a Mac or a PC. Just the very nature of a handheld, battery operated device with a fragile screen means it's not going to last that long with regular use. I personally own Macs that i've collected from various places that are over 10 years old and still work perfectly (like a PowerBook 170 and a Mac SE/30).

Computers like Macs remain useful for a long time, they get handed down to children etc. and they get sold on second hand, refurbished and so on. Macs in particular retain their value very well which keeps people selling them once they are done with them rather than just scraping them.

Apple estimates they have around 25 million current Mac users, and there are over 8 million active OS X users presently according to Steve Jobs. Of all people I think they are in the best position to know ;) Even if only 400,000 Mac users (5% of the 8 million OS X users) had a Palm, and each spent around $180 that's $72,000,000 in revenue, if you say then that maybe Palm only has a 30% margin on those sales that's $21,600,000 in profit. You think they can't afford to hire 2 lousy Mac programmers? :P

Obviously this is complicated by Palm and PalmSource splitting (which actually seems kind of nuts given most of the profit must have come from hardware sales rather than licenses), but anyway it makes the case for continued Mac support from the Palm OS camp.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

New rule: Stop pulling numbers out of your arse
;-) @ 2/14/2004 9:24:15 PM #
Palms have a *much* shorter life span than a desktop computer, be it a Mac or a PC. Just the very nature of a handheld, battery operated device with a fragile screen means it's not going to last that long with regular use.

B.S. Palms actually have a very LONG lifespan, one of the reasons sales of PDAs are stagnating. A three year old PDA does everything 90% (I made that up) of users want to do. They're cheap, rugged and more likely to get passed on than a PC or Mac, since an old Palm is more likely to be able to run current/useful apps than an old PC/Mac.

Apple estimates they have around 25 million current Mac users, and there are over 8 million active OS X users presently according to Steve Jobs. Of all people I think they are in the best position to know ;) Even if only 400,000 Mac users (5% of the 8 million OS X users) had a Palm, and each spent around $180 that's $72,000,000 in revenue, if you say then that maybe Palm only has a 30% margin on those sales that's $21,600,000 in profit. You think they can't afford to hire 2 lousy Mac programmers? :P

And I'll bet Apple's "estimates" are accurate...
Reminds me of Palm's repeated trumpeting that they've sold "30 million" PDAs over the years. Too bad most of them are now residing in landfill sites.

Take your 400,000 OS X users with Palms. How many of them will be so happy with using Palms that they'll accept the new reality and just buy The Missing Sync or sync with Bluetooth? 90%? 95%? Lets use 90%. So Palm loses 10% = 40,000 OS X users. How many of them would have upgraded their Palms in the next year or two? Let's say 10%. So Palm loses 4,000 new sales at your $180 apiece = $720,000. Wow. That's about how much Palm spent on the office Christmas party in 2001. And how much would it cost to code + support a Mac Palm Desktop and upgrade conduits every time Apple feels like doing a .x ""update"? Suddenly Palm's decision starts making a whole lot more sense, doesn't it? Six months from now Mac users will have stopped sniffling and will be buying Palms just like they always did. The zealots need to get over it and stop whining.

Smart move, Palm.


It's just too big.

RE: MASSIVE mistake! MASSIVE, I tell ya!
;-) @ 2/14/2004 10:37:42 PM #
So Palm loses 4,000 new sales at your $180 apiece = $720,000.

Forgot your 30% profit margin. So dropping Mac will cost Palm 4,000 x $180 x 30% = $216,000 profit*.

What the He11 is Palm thinking! $216,000 COLD HARD CASH! Idiots!

*Then again, paying salary + benefits for all the Palm-Mac Code Monkeys, Indian support workers (paid $2/hour!), Mac documentation writers, beta test program organizers etc. just might eat up a big chunk of those profits.

Hmmmmmm...




It's just too big.

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