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Comments on: Palm Responds to Apple's Veiled Threats

Legal ScalesThe war of words and thinly-veiled half-threats between Apple and Palm has just taken a new twist, with based on new commentary by a Palm spokesperson responding to comments made by Apple's COO Tim Cook earlier this week. The comments, as seen in a new piece on the Wall Street Journal's D| All Things Digital site, have each party possible entrenching themselves for a long and protracted legal battle.

Written by John Packowski on his "Digital Daily" column, today's article is entitled "Palm to Apple: Bring It". The piece contains just enough juicy bits to make to make it abundantly clear who each company is targeting with their respective statements. As seen in our story earlier this week, Tim Cook fired the initial volley a few days ago with several semi-vague statements such as these choice quotes:

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We will see litigation soon if it is coming

Caspian @ 1/23/2009 10:35:01 AM # Q
With the predictions that the Pre could hit Sprint by late spring, Apple will need to show its hand pretty quickly if it intends to try to block the Pre's release with an injunction alleging patent infringement. Surely this is something that the Palm legal team has anticipated with all the former Apple people working on the project and they have their response in the can and ready to file.

David
Palm III> Palm IIIx> Palm IIIc> Sony T615> Sony T665> Sony TH55> Palm T|E> Palm T|E2> Palm T|X
RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
jca666us @ 1/23/2009 2:22:01 PM # Q
one would like to believe so.

apple has enough cash and legal talent to keep palm busy until they run out of elevation cash and close their doors.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
buckeyetex315 @ 1/23/2009 3:36:41 PM # Q
If it is true that Cypress Semi is supplying the touchscreen, my guess is that they have patents surrounding their technology also.

It is common practice in the electronic components industry for supply contracts to have clauses in them that helps indemnify the purchaser if the technology is challenged by patent infringement lawsuits.

My thought is that Apple may have some patents surrounding particular uses of multi-touch technology, but they didn't "invent" the whole idea. Even if they did, they had to license the technology to some one to manufacture for them. Component manufacturers aren't easily persuaded to produce an expensive component like a touchscreen if they can't sell it to others also.

Palm probably will have significant resources from their supplier (whoever it is) to fight patent lawsuits re: touchscreens.

Brent

Palm Vx -> Long wait -> Palm T|X

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
ChiA @ 1/23/2009 7:39:28 PM # Q
apple has enough cash and legal talent to keep Palm busy

Apple has enough cash to buy Palm outright!!
Goodbye litigation!

It's just a matter of:
a) whether Apple calculates buying Palm as being cheaper than litigation or any perceived losses incurred from Palm infringing its IP.

and

b) whether such a purchase will be regarded as an anti-competitive move by the authorities.

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
ChiA @ 1/23/2009 7:40:32 PM # Q
apple has enough cash and legal talent to keep Palm busy

Apple has enough cash to buy Palm outright!!
Goodbye litigation!

It's just a matter of:
a) whether Apple calculates buying Palm as being cheaper than litigation or any perceived losses incurred from Palm infringing its IP.

and

b) whether such a purchase will be reagarded as an anti-competitive move by the authorities.

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/24/2009 4:27:47 AM # Q
> ...Apple has enough cash to buy Palm outright!!...

It's a lot cheaper to sue.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
Caspian @ 1/24/2009 5:01:52 AM # Q
If Apple chose to buy Palm, I doubt if there would be any anti-trust issues because, as popular as the iPhone is, Apple would still control only a small portion of the total phone market in the US.

If Apple could stop the Pre and, in doing so, kill Palm, through patent infringement litigation, that would be far cheaper than buying Palm, even at Palm's depressed value. If Apple views Palm and the Pre as a threat and would like to put Palm out of business, they will move to delay the Pre as long as possible and force Palm to collapse under its own weight. Then, if they are interested in anything at Palm, they just need to be the highest bidder at the asset liquidation sale.



David
Palm III> Palm IIIx> Palm IIIc> Sony T615> Sony T665> Sony TH55> Palm T|E> Palm T|E2> Palm T|X

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
TooMuch @ 1/24/2009 6:25:45 AM # Q
Apple is thought to have its share of infringements upon Palm and others. Apple never infringed in the development of the iPhone did it? Any litigation from Apple toward Palm will not only be met with a counter suit from Palm but would likely cause other companies that Apple may have infringed upon to bring their own suits toward Apple.

Apple is at a critical venture right now, especially with Steve in the public shadows currently and beyond. Will Apple continue to be the forward-looking company that it has been in recent years, or will Apple turn into defensive, hold-the-fort brand. Apple's been down this road before with other battles. Apple is far better-off continuing to build a forward brand through intentional marketing rather than the stagnant profile that litigation fights can bring.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
jca666us @ 1/24/2009 6:34:00 AM # Q
For the interested parties - some more of the patents apple was granted:

Multipoint Touchscreen (20060097991)

Gestures for touch sensitive input devices (20060026521)

Visual Expander (20060022955)

Activating virtual keys of a touch-screen virtual keyboard (20060085757)

Virtual input device placement on a touch screen user interface (20060033724)

Proximity detector in handheld device (20060161870)

Electronic Device %u2013 Design Patent (D504,889)

Ellipse Fitting for Multi-Touch Surfaces (20070139395)

MULTI-TOUCH CONTACT TRACKING ALGORITHM (20070081726)

MULTI-TOUCH HAND POSITION OFFSET COMPUTATION (20070078919)

MULTI-TOUCH CONTACT MOTION EXTRACTION (20070070052)

MULTI-TOUCH CONTACT MOTION EXTRACTION (20070070051)

MULTI-TOUCH CONTACT MOTION EXTRACTION (20070070050)

IDENTIFYING CONTACTS ON A TOUCH SURFACE (20060238522)

IDENTIFYING CONTACTS ON A TOUCH SURFACE (20060238521)

USER INTERFACE GESTURES (20060238520)

USER INTERFACE GESTURES (20060238519)

TOUCH SURFACE (20060238518)

CAPACITIVE SENSING ARRANGEMENT (20060232567)

Method of increasing the spatial resolution of touch sensitive devices (20060032680)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
TooMuch @ 1/24/2009 9:08:41 AM # Q
Listing all those patents won't help the iPhone improve. Apple better concentrate on how to better their UI system on the iPhone. Things like navigating from app to app without having go "Home" first...copy, cut and paste, etc.


RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/24/2009 9:10:29 AM # Q
Someone needs to come along and clobber Apple & Palm and bring 'em into the modern age in several key areas. Removable storage, video capture, voice dialing over BT etc. should be laughably standard features by 2009.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?
RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
jca666us @ 1/24/2009 9:14:29 AM # Q
>Listing all those patents won't help the iPhone improve.

No, I listed those patents to show that if Apple believes Palm is infringing upon their patents, they have plenty to sue for.

>Apple better concentrate on how to better their UI system on the iPhone. Things like
>navigating from app to app without having go "Home" first...copy, cut and paste, etc.

Palm should try innovating without ripping off other companies IP.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/24/2009 10:02:59 AM # Q
I believe Apple when they say they had good reasons not to include copy-n-paste. It's not at all clear to me why anyone would NOT believe them when they say this.


RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/24/2009 12:26:10 PM # Q
>>>I believe Apple when they say they had good reasons not to include copy-n-paste. It's not at all clear to me why anyone would NOT believe them when they say this.

OK, you actually made me LOL with that!

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/24/2009 12:52:19 PM # Q
You think they are incapable of adding copy-n-paste!?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/24/2009 1:22:32 PM # Q
You think they are incapable of adding copy-n-paste!?

I think that they're obsessed with fashion over function. All it would take to implement copy-n-paste on the iPhone would be some kind of OS-wide multitouch "function" button. Hold with one finger, select text with the other. Tap the button to bring up a list of traditional edit commands.

But that's not pretty enough for Apple. So users get screwed while Apple dicks around coming up with something that doesn't mar what they obviously consider an untouchable masterpiece. It's symptomatic of Apple as a whole: fashion over function. Which is fine for them, 'cause that's what 90% of their users are concerned with anyway.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/apple_introduces_revolutionary

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/24/2009 1:47:57 PM # Q
Oh, okay - I'm not familiar enough with Apple mentality to say anything about that.

Aside - I thought "copy-n-paste" was MUCH more than just text manipulation and that IS how I've been using it (forever) w.r.t. the iPhone et al.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
jca666us @ 1/24/2009 2:10:40 PM # Q
>I think that they're obsessed with fashion over function.

That obsession has proved popular with consumers. I believe Apple has been smart not to take edge cases and waste their development effort.

>All it would take to implement copy-n-paste on the iPhone would be some kind of >OS-wide multitouch "function" button. Hold with one finger, select text with the >other. Tap the button to bring up a list of traditional edit commands.

That sounds clunky - I didn't realize you were an UI designer.

>But that's not pretty enough for Apple.

Replace "pretty" with "poorly thought out" - and I'll agree.

>So users get screwed while Apple dicks around coming up with something that doesn't
>mar what they obviously consider an untouchable masterpiece. It's symptomatic of
>Apple as a whole: fashion over function. Which is fine for them, 'cause that's what >90% of their users are concerned with anyway.

It is what gives them their gargantuan profits - I guess you'd prefer they watered down their design and barely made enough cash to scrape by (Palm).

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
joad @ 1/25/2009 8:00:38 PM # Q
>>I think that they're obsessed with fashion over function.

THAT part of Apple's "intellectual" property is being mimicked by Palm for sure.

Palm "Preh": as in "eh, where's the microSD and Garnet emulator?"

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/26/2009 7:27:46 AM # Q
Copy & paste is more than just frikkin text. From what I have heard, the OS currently has some sort of record size limit - shades of PalmOS!! - and an entire update of the OS is probably needed before they can put in C&P.

Man, I hope there's no damned record size limit in webOS. Hey, you SQLite experts - is there?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/26/2009 10:40:07 AM # Q
> Copy & paste is more than just frikkin text...

I've always assumed so, too, but maybe not for the Pre?

== "...4. How about MMS (a.k.a. picture mail) support, and cut-and-paste?
==
== Yep, the Pre will indeed handle MMS messages, plus cut-and-paste for text...

- http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/33277

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/26/2009 10:44:26 AM # Q
>>>I've always assumed so, too, but maybe not for the Pre?

Who said that? Oh, you.

Next!

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
jca666us @ 1/27/2009 4:43:35 AM # Q
>Copy & paste is more than just frikkin text. From what I have heard, the OS currently
>has some sort of record size limit - shades of PalmOS!! - and an entire update of the
>OS is probably needed before they can put in C&P.

Actually, I believe C&P isn't in there for security reasons - no application currently has access to another application's data.

There has been a 3rd party workaround developed - I believe Apple hasn't implemented it because it's low on their priority list.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2009 5:13:21 AM # Q
Please note that my "copy-n-paste is only text?" comment EXPLICITLY was addressed at the =Pre=, not the iPhone or anything Apple plans.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/27/2009 6:36:31 AM # Q
Well WTF are you saying?! C&P is text-only on Pre, or C&P is more than text on the Pre?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2009 6:38:12 AM # Q
Reading comprehension problem?

Go back up to my post that both quotes the relevant part AND gives a link to the original Me-Too Media article.

Sheesh.

No kidding.

Sheesh.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/27/2009 11:01:41 AM # Q
ME: Copy & paste is more than just frikkin text...

YOU: I've always assumed so, too, but maybe not for the Pre?

Learn how structure sentences so they are unambiguous. Given your record of sneering "vaporware" at the Pre, who the eff can tell anymore WHAT you mean?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2009 11:33:30 AM # Q
Oh, I see - you can't scroll up more than two posts.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/27/2009 12:36:22 PM # Q
jca666us:
Actually, I believe C&P isn't in there for security reasons - no application currently has access to another application's data.

Copy and paste doesn't need to access other applications. There is an system-wide clipboard that everything can access. At least that's how it works on every single other operating system on the planet.

There is no "security" reason for the lack of copy-and-paste on iPhone. There are stupid design choices that Apple can't be bothered rectifying.

SV:
I've always assumed so, too, but maybe not for the Pre?

On a mobile device, copy-and-paste of text is what people need. On the desktop you can c&p pretty much anything, sure, from pictures to ranges of cells from a spreadsheet. But on mobile, 99% of people just want a simple to way clip stuff like URL's, phone numbers, names and addresses from one place to another. (It also makes document editing a lot easier.)

Like Mike, I really don't know what you're trying to imply here.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2009 12:46:22 PM # Q
Pardon - I did not address anything w.r.t. how useful copy-n-paste is nor on what people do with copy-n-paste, only that I was ALWAYS under the assumption that copy-n-paste is "object" copy-n-paste, not "text" copy-n-paste, and that I had always assumed everyone was talking about "object" copy-n-paste always.

Now we find out the Pre can only do "text" copy-n-paste?

And so folks are castigating Apple because they didn't do "object" copy-n-paste (and, obviously, decided against "text" copy-n-paste - maybe because that's not what folks think when they think "copy-n-paste"?).

Didn't I read recently somewhere about how one couldn't do "image" copy-n-paste on the iPhone (like from camera to email or something) so it was totally broken? Yet now here is the Pre and it can't, too (or something)?

W.r.t. applications accessing others' data - good grief, the scenario was spelled out for you and you even QUOTED it!

An application is not allowed to access other application's data; "object" copy-n-paste EXPLICTLY loads "the clipboard" with one application's data, available for any other application to access! Security hole!

Anywho, if one goes back in THIS thread only one can outright see - at face value, please - what I've been saying w.r.t. copy-n-paste.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/27/2009 12:57:03 PM # Q
And so folks are castigating Apple because they didn't do "object" copy-n-paste

No. All people really care about on mobile is text c&p. No "security" issues there.

For pictures, PalmOS shows how easy it is without c&p. Just save the picture and import it wherever you need it. Say if you save a picture from the web, it appears in the Pics & Videos app. If you want to insert that picture into a document or an email, you just pick from your list of saved pictures. Simple.

What other objects do you think are necessary to c&p between applications on mobile?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2009 1:15:51 PM # Q
Silly silly person - "object" copy-n-paste is a superset of "text" copy-n-paste. As such, when discussing "object" copy-n-paste without further narrowing down what one means, one IS discussing "text" copy-n-paste.

One application copies text to a clipboard, said clipboard available to another application, security hole.

Like it or not.

Now to bring us back to near the top of this posting thread, does anyone REALLY think that Apple cannot program copy-n-paste?

- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7125/#149415

Really?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/27/2009 1:22:13 PM # Q
One application copies text to a clipboard, said clipboard available to another application, security hole.

Doesn't seem to hurt Windows, OS X, Linux, Windows Mobile, Palm OS or Android. Are Apple so incapable of designing secure software they can't do textual copy-and-paste without exposing the inner workings of the OS? (Answer: of course they're not. They just don't want to.)

So since I'm such a silly, silly person, explain to me how clipping plain text creates a security hole...?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2009 1:28:33 PM # Q
> So since I'm such a silly, silly person, explain to me how clipping
> plain text creates a security hole...?

"text" is "data".

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/27/2009 1:35:12 PM # Q
That's not an explanation, that's schoolboy computer science. Again: how does clipping plain-text (or alphanumeric data, if you insist on being pedantic) create a security hole?
RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2009 1:42:25 PM # Q
Gack.

"Unit set to explode at 13:40 GMT at coordinates Alpha Bravo"

"Mr. Jones' prescription for Viagra has been renewed"

"Your daughter got a C on that math test"

"Mary, my wife does NOT know about that hotel reservation"

Text is data.

Placed by one application, now available to another application, security hole.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/27/2009 1:56:33 PM # Q
That's still not an explanation and you know it. How does this "security hole" work?

Further, if it's such a worriesome thing, why does every other operating system allow it?

oops
jca666us @ 1/27/2009 5:40:38 PM # Q
Any educated guesses (sorry freakout) how this will affect the Pre?

http://www.macrumors.com/2009/01/26/apple-awarded-iphone-and-multi-touch-patent/

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/27/2009 5:51:37 PM # Q
Tim, stop already! Why do you even bother with him? He's the Palm anti-fanboy, and it's so colored everything that he says about Palm that there's no use trying to have a conversation with him. It's all BS.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/27/2009 6:00:21 PM # Q
I second twrock. Total /ignore on him.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/27/2009 6:49:05 PM # Q
^^ Sorry fellas. Just couldn't help myself in this particular instance...

(Still waiting for that explanation, SV.)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
SeldomVisitor @ 1/28/2009 7:18:25 AM # Q
The blind-hatred personal attacks are interesting.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/28/2009 7:45:57 AM # Q
LOL. I think the term "blind-hatred" might better describe your feelings about Palm.

So now you want to play the martyr as well? That almost brings a tear to my eye. ;-)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/28/2009 9:23:50 AM # Q
No, the frenzied annointment of the Pre as the "uber-god phone" over on TreoCentral is really what has brought a tear to my eye. I've gotta rant here for a moment:

All of a sudden, we've returned to the halcyon days of 1981. But instead of 640k being good enough for everyone, 8gb has now been deemed more than sufficient for anyone's media collection, even by people with that much or more SD-based storage on older Palm OS devices far less suited for media than the Pre.

Palm have joine Apple in the strange new world of "dumb smartphones"---flashy enough to dazzle the average soccer mom or teeny bopper, great web browsers & media players but ultimately quite handicapped in many areas. These devices are sadly wanting in many "power user" aspects such as cut & paste, removable storage, removable batteries, IR, video recoridng, voice dialing over BT, desktop synching etc (take your pick). Of course, power users are in the minority, and vocal power users are even rarer.

We've been clever enough to work around the continued failings of Palm, Access/PalmSource & Garnet over the past 6.5 years, but now Palm expects us to roll over and let them decree what we shall load on our devices (app signing), which carrier we can use it with (Sprint or bust) as well as how we sync 'em (Cloud or bust) and how much we can store on them (fixed storage only)? No way!

If switching to the next Palm device is going to require SO much change (and remember, we STILL have no 100% guaranteed commitment by Palm other than some vague mumblings at CES about being able to import legacy Palm Desktop PIM data), then I might as well jump ship to something with more appealing hardware, different carrier partnerships other than just Sprint, and a hardware manufacturer with a higher likelihood of still being in business in a year's time. Or I can just stick it with Garnet for the forseeable future, given my stockpile of 2 TX's and my trusty 755p. Heck, maybe I'll pick up a cheap Centro "just in case" while I'm at it!

To be tethered to a 2yr carrier contract with a device that's posesses ZERO expandability (iPhone) or can only have its battery switched out (Pre) is very consumer-unfriendly BUT that's apparently the new way of doing things in the world domincated by economic doom & gloom where Apple influences everyone & everything. I can live with it but I still don't have to like it. In some ways, I'm very curmudgeonly, and I have become so brutally efficient with the combination of stylus/d-pad/app buttons/touchscreen on ol' FrankenGarnet that anything involving strokes/swipes/gestures is certain to be less accurate and more time-consuming, no matter how speedy the Pre's processor is.

The Palm device history in my signature has in all likelihood come to a screeching halt, sad to say, until a thorough hands-on fondling with the Pre results in some kind of epiphany induced by a flurry of index finger swipes.

ALP, Cobalt, or DGOS--my $'s here for the taking!!



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/28/2009 10:17:01 AM # Q
>>>All of a sudden, we've returned to the halcyon days of 1981. But instead of 640k being good enough for everyone, 8gb has now been deemed more than sufficient for anyone's media collection, even by people with that much or more SD-based storage on older Palm OS devices far less suited for media than the Pre.

Do you really carry your ENTIRE frikkin Media Collection WITH you?! I doubt that because I don't ever recall you griping about why don't SD cards get ginormous enough to suit your needs (unless they already have, in which case it can't be *that* big of a frikkin collection!).

I'm willing to accept the trade-offs necessary to get me a Pre. 8GB is fine for me at the start - I don't use up all of my 4GB+1GB on my LifeDrive. And I don't think I'll be burning up battery life on a Pre using it as an *iPod* (I don't with the LifeDrive). For an occasional video, maybe, but well-timed so that I know I'll near an AC outlet to recharge or top off the battery (just like with the LifeDrive).

No card slot is the price to pay to keep the general non-geek public shielded from file management problems and the grief that brings. I'm sure Palm will come up with a solution for that - I've already said most likely a FileFlow (CoverFlow) viewer.

The Pre is superior enough to the iPhone to have prevented me from buying that. Many people are excited about the Pre and I think you'll find yourself outnumbered.
http://prepoint.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/prespotting-on-twitter/

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
Gekko @ 1/28/2009 11:05:00 AM # Q

why carry around the same stale pricey cumbersome clutter of media files and be forced to play DJ and constantly collect new stuff? i stream all of my media - radio, TV, etc. - FRESH, LIGHT, AND FREE.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/28/2009 11:25:07 AM # Q
Fresh, light & free? not for much longer! This is the new age of nickel & dime revenue streams, baby! The percentage of "fresh" new music that I've purchased and actually care to listen to that's been released in the past 4-5 years is practically nil anyway. Your Lil' Wayne, Soulja Boy, Miley, Jonas Bros etc. can stay in the cloud for all I care!

Between carriers' bandwidth throttling/caps, the decline of "free" internet radio, and Palm and their partners pushing like he11 for subscription or fee-based everything, you're gonna eventually wish you had a half-terabyte of archived digital MP3s & videos like I do...all ripped from CD (with the original CDs still stashed away in my parents' attic for safekeeping!) at high bitrates and unencumbered by any kind any knd of DRM silliness. I listen to what I want to, when I want to, and how I want to whenever possible.

I don't trust the Google, the Cloud, iTunes etc....not so much from a security standpoint but all of those services run the risk of going tits-up or pulling a Palm and dumping a "standard" from one day to the next. But i do feel pretty safe with near-ubiquity of plain' old MP3s on a external RAID drive with the original optical discs that I still care about stashed away for safekeeping.

Besides, sometimes it's fun to play DJ!

P.S. Mike, I do have a 160gb iPod Classic for carrying around the vast majority of my "collection", yes. But hate having to haul that thing and its proprietary cables around and having to deal with the bloated nighmare that is iTunes even more.

But since you asked, yes, I do have a handful of SDHC & microSDHC cards that I rotate between loaded with the choicest morsels from various genres. With 16GB SDHC cards now ~$25 shipped online and 8GB cards down to ~$10 shipped at times, there's no reason to not stock up. BTW, the very friendly folks manning the SD Org's booth at CES said it'll realistically be 4-5 years before we have 2TB SDXC cards available. But 64GB will be out by this fall and they hope to have 128GB next year. They also said they forsee SDXC happily coexisting alongside higher-capacity 16/32gb SDHC cards for the forseeable future, as current SDHC devices will not be upgradable via a firmware update to support XC since there's an actual hardware/bus change involved.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
Gekko @ 1/28/2009 12:16:17 PM # Q

you need to jump on the sprint. $99/month unlimited everything - which includes FREE RADIO AND TV STREAMING!

http://www.nextel.com/en/services/power_vision/sprint_tv.shtml

and PocketTunes also has free streaming radio of virtually any genre you want. FRESH FREE AND CURRENT.

Sprint does not bend you over every month with no lube like AT&T and Verizon nickel and diming you to death. and i stopped paying for and "collecting" CDs, DVDs, MP3s etc. in this brave new world, FREE is where it's at, baby!!!

i have gone through my monthly bills and eliminated even the smallest recurring item that does not provide value.

"In the old world, real estate soared in value, credit cards were tools that let you painlessly live out your dreams, jobs were secure as long as you did as long as you did your work, retirement was an idyllic reward for years of toil, and money was made to be saved and passed on to the next generation. In the new world, real estate values are stagnant, credit buying can lead to financial ruin, we are all free agents in a job market where security can come only from within, retirement at any age may be foolish, and trying to build up and maintain an estate can be downright dangerous." - Stephen M. Pollan



RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/28/2009 1:04:17 PM # Q
But remember...I get reimbursed for my VZW bill by work (I bring the handset, they cover the service), so if I go Sprint/AT&T it comes out of MY pocket--ain't gonna happen unless absolutely necessary! Besides, VZW's coverage here in the sticks is far superior to everyone else.

Otherwise, your $ advice is logical, fiscally responsible and always useful!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
Gekko @ 1/28/2009 1:11:52 PM # Q

i forgot about your vzw deal.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/28/2009 1:20:41 PM # Q
SV:
The blind-hatred personal attacks are interesting.

As is your refusal to explain your earlier posting. How would the implementation of textual copy-and-paste create a "security hole" on iPhone? If it's so dangerous, why is it do-able on every other platform?

Still waiting.

hkk:

I certainly understand where you're coming from on the storage issue. Me, I'd love to be able to carry around more than 8GB worth of content too (my media collection tops a terabyte now). But the truth is that I normally only have around 6GB worth of mp3 that I'd actually want to carry around with me all the time, and I'm happy to rotate my collection as needed. And I watch video on-the-go so rarely that not having much space left over for that is a minor annoynace at most - in fact, the video that I do usually want to watch/show around is something streamed off the 'net. I think most people are in the same boat.

I was also really hoping they'd keep at least the microSD slot. But I'd call it heartbreaker, not dealbreaker.

As for the rest, though, I think it's still waaaaay too early to judge. Desktop syncing? As Beersie pointed out in his recent blog on webOS's desktop potential ( http://www.pikesoft.com/blog/index.php?itemid=214 ), Palm are poised to create a whole new way of going about desktop interaction. The core webOS apps could easily be ported to a "webOS Desktop" and enable peer-to-peer communication with your phone. With HTML5's offline caching, this means you'd have copies of your PIM data on your phone and on your desktop. You'd have control of stuff like SMS messages with a big keyboard 'n mouise and access to GPS location data.

Palm could revolutionise desktop sync. There's still months to go until Pre's release. Let's wait and see.

Video recording? It's been such terrible quality on phones so far that I'm not going to miss it - much. It was always more a cool little perk to me than must-have.

Carrier lock-in? http://www.gearlog.com/2009/01/palms_planning_something_big_a.php - Palm are going to announce something at MWC, and it's likely going to be a GSM model. And GSM means unlocked, baby. Plus, Palm have always been carrier-agnostic in the US - has there been a device of theirs that Verizon didn't eventually carry? You might just have to wait a bit longer...

App signing? Dude, Palm have needed their own simple-to-use application store for ages. The existence of one doesn't necessarily mean they're going to lock out unsigned apps either. But all that aside, webOS and Pre are Linux-based! Hackers are gonna have a field day with 'em. If Palm do attempt to lock anything away, it'll be just like Apple and the iPhone: jailbreakers will make a mockery of it.

Anyways, I don't mean to come across like any kind of apologist - just reminding you that it's early days yet, and Palm's history (for all their flaws) is one of open-ness and a focus on good mobile computing.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680 -> Centro

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/28/2009 2:09:53 PM # Q
Carrier-agnostic in the USA???? C'mon, Timmmmmmmmay!!! You know they've always been in bed with Sprint since the Handspring days! For the record, Verizon has only missed out on the 800w entirely to date, but I am thinking that the Treo Pro as well as the Pre will be no-shows on Verizon (ie the Centro will be the final Palm device on their network).

I am just extraordinarily bummed over the lack of microSDHC. I've been waiting for the holy triumverate (non-WinMob Palm device + 3.5mm headphone jack + big screen) for so many years that having the rug pulled out from under me and my pocketful of SD cards really makes me sour. And while I will be a good boy and refrain from doom & gloom predictions for the time being, I am NOT expecting good battery life at all on the Pre and its feeble little 1150mAh battery.

Remember, someone like Gekko or me me biotching & moaning about Palm's decisions is coming from a USER'S perspective-not a stock-pumping market watcher or someone whose fortunes are in any way tied into anything involving the mobile industry (not throwing stones, just making a point). So I'll continue to call 'em as I see 'em, and while I know Palm HAD to do something drastic to survive (and that survival is in no way guaranteed by 2 days of demos at CES, let's not forget), they have basically set themselves up for this rash of criticism by many "power" users by their utter neglect of their Palm OS devices for so long.

Case in point: The Garnet Treos went basically unchanged from the 600 to the 650 to the 700p to the 680 to the 755p to the Centro. Had Palm prepped us for a cloud-based future by trying a bit harder with the old MyPalm portal & wireless backup solution, we might be more in the mood to cut the Hotsync cord completely. Or, had Palm offered some proper differentiation within their lineup by, say, a 755p with a 3.5mm stereo headphone jack and equipped the Centro with just 1-2GB of onboard storage and no microSD slot, the transition to the Pre wouldn't be as jarring.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/28/2009 5:36:28 PM # Q
As for the App Catalog:
http://prepoint.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/palm-please-learn-from-the-app-store-mistakes/

Forget any idea of Garnet being up to using the cloud. That was am ambition that turned into a nightmare/pipedream once Palm spun off the OS and lost control.

If you've read Beers's posts, you also see how Sprint fits into things with webOS. I expect Sprint to offer some special Pre services, perhaps dealing with data propagation to the cloud:
http://prepoint.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/the-pre-and-the-cloud-and-you-3/

Sprint will be the model other carriers will learn from.

I'm bloody excited about the Pre!!

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/28/2009 6:07:06 PM # Q
"If you've read Beers's posts, you also see how Sprint fits into things with webOS. I expect Sprint to offer some special Pre services, perhaps dealing with data propagation to the cloud:"

ARPU!! ARPU!! They've gotta make up for that $199 pricetag somewhere, y'know!?!
As I predicted earlier, make way for the "special" Pre-exclusive "Really Everything Unlimited" Sprint plan for $149.99/month...including a free 8GB online Sprint Storage Locker!


"Sprint will be the model other carriers will learn from"
Yes, in how to run a wireless business/brand into the ground. Maybe we'll get a $49.99 Centro 2 as a Wal-Mart exclusive running on the Boost pre-paid iDen network later this year as well.

"I'm bloody excited about the Pre!!"
I'm just bloody disappointed but will refrain from ranting TOO heavily here until I've fondled all of the shiny off a production Pre and put it through its paces. But of all the folks around these parts, Mike, I NEVER woulda expected such an about-face from you! ;-)

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/28/2009 6:55:43 PM # Q
Hey, when did this thread turn into something intelligent. ;-)

Kris, I'm having a lot of the same negative thoughts about webOS/Pre. I'm extremely efficient with my TX and have a lot of third-party stuff loaded that has allowed me to create "my device". (I even added an internal mic and vibrating alarm to turn the hardware into "my device" as well.)

Will webOS allow the kind of openess that will allow developers to create the missing pieces that Palm leaves out? I know Beers has high hopes, but Palm's track record has been to have all the potential and yet find a way to never deliver it.

The same worry applies to the hardware. The past few years has seen Palm doing nothing more than trying to force me to use a single form-factor device: no new pda's and nothing but small-square-screens and little keyboards. I know that the Pre is a fairly significant departure from that, but just like the iPhone, is Palm going to only offer us one kind of hardware? That's another part of the culture I hope the former Apple guys didn't bring with them to Palm.

I have a lot of questions still. It's not that the Pre and webOS aren't really cool. They are. I can certainly understand the excitement, especially after all these years. But the iPhone is really cool too. I don't care about really cool. I care about function. I care about ease of use and the ability to turn whatever handheld device I choose to use into "my device".

So I suppose that eliminates me as part of Palm's target consumer group.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/28/2009 7:57:41 PM # Q
Eliminates you?? Well, it eliminates you and me both, pardner!

While you have truly taken your hardware mods to the extreme (in a good way!), I definitely see your point. Beersie makes some good points but at this stage of the game, I almost thing Palm would've been almost better off spinning the Pre off into a new company and/or distanced it from "Palm" as we know it. The Pre simply shares nothing with any of its older siblings...but with Palm giving all the signs that it's a WebOS future ahead of us, you really have to wonder if it's too much change all at one time and about 3 years too late...

In fact, what DOES the Pre share with previous Palm devices? Let's see...

-A "smile" keyboard like the old Treos, but made of the "gel" sheet used by the Centro & Treo Pro

-Autmatic "saving" of your current document when you switch apps

-The ring/vibrate switch up top

-The same 1150mAh battery used by the Centro and 800w & the same angular packaging used by the Pro

-The same microUSB sync/charge cords used by the 800w & Pro

-The obvious "Palm" branding on it + Sprint carrier relationships

That's not much to go on. There's a huge difference between "cool" and being efficient via multi-tasking and being "uncool" but brutually efficient.

Look, I probbly have at least 15-20 "touches" of my Treo in the course of any given day. It's USUALLY to quickly check some crucial bit of PIM data, check/write e-mail or check the web.

Let's say I get a new incoming e-mail alert.

I tap the red button, tap the center button to unlock, tap & hold center button again, press "up" on d-pad once, hit center button again to open up VersaMail, center button again to read my message, red button again for screen off.

All quick, painless, and easily done one-handed. A lot of the Pre usage I saw invlved two hands (one to hold the device, the other hand to provide the "stroke" finger). Not good, especially if you have short, fat thumbs like me that might pose a problem for trying to do some of the gestures with. Especially bad news if you are used to the rapid-fire quickness of years of ingrained FrankenGarnet one-handed navigation.

It's like Graffiti. I did just FINE with G1 for years and years. But most "average" users didn't want to bother with the learning curve, so Palm went with that and the hollow threat of the Xerox litigation as an excuse to dump Graffiti classic. Instead of just paying Xerox some royalties and/or offering us the CHOICE of a "free" G2 or a $20 G1 plugin, Palm just quietly kills a legacy of 7 years of devices running G1 and brings about the crummy G2 without a reasonable explanation or migration strategy. They even sneakily tweaked some late-production Zire classics and m515s to have OS 4.1.2 with Graffiti 2 pre-installed!

2003: You like Graffiti 1? TOO BAD!

2004: You like wi-fi? TOO BAD!

2005: You like PDAs? TOO BAD!

2006: You like 320x480 screens? TOO BAD!

2007: You like larger screens, keyboards, batteries and styli? TOO BAD!

2008: You like Palm OS more than Windows Mobile? TOO BAD!

2009: You like hard buttons, styli, IR ports, memory card slots, desktop synchronization, easy one-handed navigation, video recording, tweaking your device, and utilizing possibly 13 years of investment in Palm OS apps? TOO BAD!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/28/2009 10:00:00 PM # Q
Yep, "too bad" that after the new OS is here, running on a way cool device, I'm still in the same boat, wondering if there is a future for me with Palm devices. Too bad I'm still waiting for someone to release right device with the right OS. (And in the end, it still might be Palm, I just don't have any certainty yet.)

But at least while I wait, I've got a TX that is still serving my needs quite well, albeit with two screen replacements, hardware mods and Dmitry's SDHC driver.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/28/2009 10:22:07 PM # Q
How IS the SDHC driver doing, now that you mention it? I haven't been keeping up with it much since prior to the holidays. What size/brand card are you using with it and how's the reliability? Does FrankenGarnet ever freak out when doing any intensive read/write operations to the card?

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?
RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/28/2009 10:51:14 PM # Q
It's working out well. I only have a 8gb card in there right now. The card is a bit slow, but that's because I bought it cheap and its speed isn't rated very high. It's plenty speedy for media playing, but a bit slow for writing large amounts of data.

I had hoped to put all my "data" on a big card and keep it synced with my desktop machine, but that would require at least a 32gb card at this point, and I'd soon surpass that. So I suppose the "cloud" does make a lot of sense in today's world.

Because I'm unwilling to try to add the driver to ROM (way too scared I'll kill something), I have to make sure I have a non-HC card with the SDHC drive to load if I somehow have to do a hard reset. Otherwise, I can't get my backup to restore from the SDHC. That's OK by me since I always have a second card in my hard case, but it is something for people to think about.

I have one of the "non-standard" 4gb SD cards (i.e. not SDHC) that used to run at a snail's pace. But Dmitry's driver did wonders for increasing the speed of that card too. So it even helps with the speed of some non-SDHC cards. He's a genius.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
akalefty @ 1/29/2009 5:42:24 AM # Q
why carry around the same stale pricey cumbersome clutter of media files and be forced to play DJ and constantly collect new stuff? i stream all of my media - radio, TV, etc. - FRESH, LIGHT, AND FREE.

Certainly free of any ability to listen to either stuff out of the mainstream-I have an extensive collection of Japanese reggae, and good luck finding KEN-U, Ryo the Skywalker or Shonan No Kaze on Rhapsody-as well as being free of the ability to allow you to listen to "your" music in contexts like long airplane rides.

What? "The cloud" isn't the solution to every problem....?

As for "playing DJ", you make it sound as though it's a chore. And if it becomes one, there's always shuffle mode, not to mention Genius, if you have a lot of time on your hands, anyway...

...hate having to haul that thing...

Heh. You kids have it so easy! Why, when I was your age, all we had were Sony Walkmans (Walkmen...?) that ran on four AA batteries and cassette tapes to listen to! You needed a backpack to carry around an afternoon's worth of music, not to mention the spare batteries! Why, we thought 20 megabytes was a lot of storage!

I had to walk eight miles through the snow to get to school. Uphill. Both ways.

(Waiting for a response along the lines of "You had a Walkman! Luxury! Why, if we wanted music, we had to bring our own harpsichord!")

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/29/2009 5:55:01 AM # Q
I understand your gripes, hhk and twrock. You like what you have and are effective with it.

My LifeDrive is crap and it's totally *in*effective, so that's why I was ready to move to an iPhone, until I saw the Pre.

For you guys, it seems the only alternatives are Symbian or WinMob crap with StyleTap, Garnet emulation on a Pre (which given the screen, won't give you G back), or biting the bullet and moving on.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/29/2009 2:20:26 PM # Q
akalefty:
(Waiting for a response along the lines of "You had a Walkman! Luxury! Why, if we wanted music, we had to bring our own harpsichord!")

I would, but I'm afraid you'd just yell at me to "Get off my lawn!", old-timer. :P

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/area_teen_up_to_something

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
Gekko @ 1/29/2009 3:48:06 PM # Q

question - if someone has an iphone or ipod with 1,000+ songs they downloaded from itunes, can those songs be transferred and will they play on the Pre?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/29/2009 4:30:42 PM # Q
Aren't iTunes songs AIFF? I don't think Apple switched to MP3 for iTunes Plus (DRM-free versions). So, unless someone states outright the Pre can do AIFF, I think the answer is No. Amazon's Music Store is all DRM-free MP3.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
Gekko @ 1/29/2009 4:37:37 PM # Q

i had lunch today with a guy with an iphone with 1,100+ songs on it. and his kids all have ipods and they all buy/share songs.

why would a guy like this buy or switch to a Pre?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/29/2009 5:53:01 PM # Q
I don't use iTunes (Amazon MP3 downloads for me) and never had an iPod of any kind. Is it still true what my friend told me years ago, that you have to burn all your iTunes songs to CD's and then rip them back to MP3's if you want to use them elsewhere?


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/29/2009 7:36:37 PM # Q
iTunes tracks are all AAC-encoded, and Pre supports AAC.

So yep, iTunes tracks should work just fine on it - so long as they're DRM-free.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/29/2009 7:37:49 PM # Q
Is it still true what my friend told me years ago, that you have to burn all your iTunes songs to CD's and then rip them back to MP3's if you want to use them elsewhere?

Used to be, until a few weeks ago when iTunes went DRM-free.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
Gekko @ 1/29/2009 7:44:38 PM # Q

so if someone has already collected thousands of songs via itunes prior to just a few weeks ago, they won't work on Pre? looks like a big barrier to entry for millions of iphone/ipod users.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/29/2009 8:27:21 PM # Q
^^ Could be. Depends on how big their collections are I guess - there's an option to convert all your old DRM songs to non-DRM, but it costs 30c per song. So if you've got a collection with thousands of tracks, you're screwed unless you're willing to fork out a significant sum of cash to strip the DRM.

'tis why I never used iTunes and always advised people against it. Build up a big enough library, spend enough money and you'd have locked yourself into Apple's ecosystem for all eternity.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/30/2009 3:08:35 AM # Q
...looks like a big barrier to entry for millions of iphone/ipod users.

...looks like a big barrier at the exit for millions of iphone/ipod users. At least that's how I saw the whole iTunes system. I have never understood how people so easily bought into such a "locked-in" system, particularly when there were other reasonable options.

I thought it was really funny how Apple defended the whole DRM scam, right up until Microsoft unleased their DRM infested OS on the world. Amazingly, Apple suddenly found a convenient way to sell non-DRM music. Wow, who'da thought it could be done?


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/30/2009 3:12:49 AM # Q
Used to be, until a few weeks ago when iTunes went DRM-free.

Really? Only a few weeks ago? Didn't they start selling DRM-free music right at the time Vista was released? Huh, my mind must be going in my old age.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/30/2009 5:51:08 AM # Q
>>>why would a guy like this buy or switch to a Pre?

Who says he should?

Yes, iTunes are AAC. I always get the damned As confused. I don't recall seeing Pre doing AAC, but I haven't concentrated on music aspects because my stuff is all MP3 anyway.

Apple did DRM-free in two steps. First, EMI agreed and so those were iTunes Plus selections at a higher price. Then after Amazon got all the labels to agree to DRM-free, they finally caved with Apple who also gave them variable pricing. The switchover to all DRM-free didn't happen overnight. If it's not completed by now, it should be soon.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/30/2009 5:56:28 AM # Q
^^ They did, but only for select titles. Now the entire catalogue will be DRM-free "by the end of the quarter". 'bout time too.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/01/apple-labels-both-win-with-drm-free-itunes-tiered-pricing.ars

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/30/2009 5:59:09 AM # Q
(my ^^ should be pointing at twrock's post, not Mike's. Damn you Cane. Isn't it, like, 6am or something where you are? go back to bed!)
RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/30/2009 6:43:54 AM # Q
After 8AM (not 9:41). And twrock is on the other side of the frikkin globe. And I knew what you were pointing at.

This notion that the Pre is going to make people switch from iPhone is nonsense. The only time that would happen is if people aren't satisfied with the iPhone or break their iPhone and figure why not try something new.

The Pre is aimed at existing Sprint owners who want to upgrade to something better, other carrier customers who want something better, and people like me who have been waiting to make a damned decision.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/30/2009 6:54:18 AM # Q
*NOW 9:41 (but now 9:53).

MobileDivide's excellent second video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai6OM8ikeo0

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
hkklife @ 1/30/2009 7:13:32 AM # Q
"The Pre is aimed at existing Sprint owners who want to upgrade to something better, other carrier customers who want something better, and people like me who have been waiting to make a damned decision."


Given Sprint's Churn numbers, I'd imagine MOST of those customers desiring the above have already jumped ship to AT&T or Verizon.



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
akalefty @ 1/30/2009 8:14:01 AM # Q
...looks like a big barrier at the exit for millions of iphone/ipod users.

Really? There're plenty of ways around that. A free one (for Windows, at least, they seem to be running behind on the OS X version, due "Fall 2008") is "DoubleTwist Desktop", which unlocks DRM-protected AAC tracks quite nicely...

See http://www.doubletwist.com/

"We have the technology...."

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/30/2009 9:50:34 AM # Q
>>>Given Sprint's Churn numbers, I'd imagine MOST of those customers desiring the above have already jumped ship to AT&T or Verizon.

Eh. You can never tell. If other carriers make a change that enables people to escape an ETF, anything can happen. Don't forget that contracts run out all the time. If there was no contract and no ETF, I think all carriers would experience a lot more churn, don't you?

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/30/2009 1:49:17 PM # Q
DoubleTwist does work handily on protected iTunes files, but it converts them to mp3 in the process, with a not-insignificant loss of audio quality. At least, I always seem to be able to notice it.
RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
freakout @ 1/30/2009 1:56:52 PM # Q
This notion that the Pre is going to make people switch from iPhone is nonsense. The only time that would happen is if people aren't satisfied with the iPhone or break their iPhone and figure why not try something new.

Anecdotally, people I know switch phones, brands and carriers all the time. Every new contract they take up leads to a new phone. It'll be interesting to see what happens with iPhone once the first contracts start expiring and there's real competition in the form of Pre and others, especially given that iPhone ain't the hip new thing anymore.

Then again, maybe people will have built up custom app libraries they don't want to leave behind.

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
twrock @ 1/30/2009 9:05:45 PM # Q
Regarding Doubletwist, etc., sounds good that there are some "simple" ways around the iTunes DRM mess. I wonder how many people even know to look for solutions.

I guess that was my point. From my perspective, it's not that the barrier is on Palm's side of the door, it's on Apple's. Maybe Palm would do well to show people the "side exit", but then again, that hasn't been very effective in other "similar" realms (i.e. OSS vs. proprietary software).


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: We will see litigation soon if it is coming
mikecane @ 1/31/2009 12:40:02 PM # Q
Came back to tout on my eejitcy. I should have read the spec sheet!
http://www.palm.com/us/products/phones/pre/index.html#tab2

Media formats supported

Audio Formats: MP3, AAC, AAC+, AMR, QCELP, WAV
Video Formats: MPEG-4, H.263, H.264
Image Formats: GIF, Animated GIF, JPEG, PNG, BMP

And since Gekko is the Sprint Expert, I ask what these footnotes mean in terms of that $99/month fee he's been toyting:

# 2 Requires data services at additional cost. Microsoft Direct Push Technology requires Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 with SP2 or Exchange Server 2007. Additional fees may apply.

# 3 GPS requires data services at additional cost. Coverage not available in all areas at all times.

Reply to this comment

Ben Combee has quit Palm

mikecane @ 1/27/2009 11:20:17 AM # Q
RE: Ben Combee has quit Palm
SeldomVisitor @ 1/27/2009 11:32:59 AM # Q
Wow - THAT'S a biggee!

RE: Ben Combee has quit Palm
hkklife @ 1/27/2009 11:36:26 AM # Q
Dang, he's leaving on good terms! There go our hopes for the exclusive tell-all interview! ;-)

Curious that he resigns now, however, when Palm is at a several-year high in terms of interest, media focus, and positive praise. I guess he saw greener grass at Mozilla...or shares the secret with SV of the Pre being vaporware and got out while he still could ;-)



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Ben Combee has quit Palm
mikecane @ 1/27/2009 5:56:40 PM # Q
From now on, I put /ignore on SV. I can no longer tell if he's sarcastic, an idiot, or just a prick. Probably all three.

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Apple And Palm Battle Heating Up?

Gekko @ 1/27/2009 2:52:30 PM # Q

Apple And Palm Battle Heating Up?
Posted By: Jim Goldman | Silicon Valley Bureau Chief
cnbc.com
| 27 Jan 2009 | 04:54 PM ET

I wrote about this during, and then moments after, the Apple Inc. conference call: A not-so-veiled threat by Apple COO Tim Cook against Palm about now standing around watching its intellectual property "get ripped off."

Even though Cook didn't name Palm, the widespread understanding was that Cook was talking specifically about Palm and its new Pre touch screen smart phone that helped the company's shares double in value since the phone's unveiling at the Consumer Electronics Show.

The saber rattling is not just bluster, either.

Apple was talking specifically about patents it had already received when Cook made those comments. But then, even worse news for Palm last week came in the form of yet a new patent with the title "Touch screen device, method, and graphical user interface for determining commands by applying heuristics." Heuristic is a fancy word for "discovery."

Either way, I've had a chance to skim through the actual patent (you can read it here) and it sounds like there might be reason for some sweaty palms at Palm.

For its part, Palm has stayed true to its defense that the technology on which the Pre is based is its own. A spokeswoman told me the night of Cook's comments that "We have patents, too."

Today, the rhetoric gets beefed up a notch: "Palm has a long history of innovation that is reflected in our products and robust patent portfolio, and we have long been recognized for our fundamental patents in the mobile space. If faced with legal action, we are confident that we have the tools necessary to defend ourselves," says spokeswoman Lynn Fox.

None of this seems to be doing the trick, however, as far as Palm's stock is concerned.

I wrote in the days after the Palm spike that shares had outgunned the news, and seemed to be rising too quickly, especially since we are still awaiting a release date and price for the Pre. Is this thing ready for prime time or not? Nonetheless, following news this morning of Apple's newest patent, and of course the Tim Cook language, Palm shares promptly dropped 7 percent before recovering slightly toward the end of the day.

Fox also maintains that the Palm Pre "will come to fruition, and we have no plans to change the schedule." That should come as welcome news for nervous investors wondering whether they should still be giving each high fives, or whether they should be sitting on their hands instead.

Also, one other thing to consider: Some analysts tell me that Apple's bluster is just that, pointing to the concept of so-called "prior art." That's the idea that if a device or invention has been described to or used by the public prior to the patent being approved, a subsequent patent based on that technology may not be valid.

Palm won't comment on that aspect of this at all, choosing to stick by the statements it has made and the patents it has won on its own. It seems this might not be as cut and dry as some might think, but I suppose that's why we have courts.

Somehow I get the feeling we haven't heard the last of any of this. One thing is certain: this will continue to hang over Palm shares.

RE: Apple And Palm Battle Heating Up?
jca666us @ 1/28/2009 5:27:41 AM # Q
If Apple invested the time and money to develop this technology and patent it, they have every right to defend their IP.

Alot of that patent has to do with *how* multitouch is implemented on the iphone.

Nothing to do with using a capacitive touch screen, but how the software algorithms can distinguish multiple fingers being placed on the screen and how various actions get interpreted as commands.

Palm can probably release the Pre - just remove the multitouch functionality from the software.

Still, Palm must have thought Apple wouldn't touch them.

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Meh

naio21 @ 1/29/2009 12:04:42 PM # Q
crApple is a sheatty company.

Ivan
RE: Meh
jca666us @ 2/1/2009 12:12:08 PM # Q
So "sheatty" that Palm has too look to them for inspiration and innovation.

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A patent lawyer weighs in

freakout @ 2/2/2009 2:34:15 AM # Q
Here's the best analysis of this issue that's been written so far. Engadget legal correspondent Nilay Patel and patent lawyer Matthew Gavronski put this together:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/28/apple-vs-palm-the-in-depth-analysis/

In abstract: Palm hold patents on a lot of stuff that's on the iPhone, including the phone interface, contact-search-by-initials, and ambient light sensors. Apple would be completely nuts to sue Palm, as they'd run the risk of invalidating their own multitouch patents in addition to having to fork out a significant amount of royalties due to the 16 million (and counting!) iPhones sold so far:

Speaking of tidy sums, we haven't even begun to talk about the money involved here, and it's a lot - enough to seriously tip the scales. Let's say Palm were to win: not only might Apple lose its patents, the court would at the very least award Palm royalties for the patents the iPhone infringes, and at over 16m iPhones sold so far, even a few percentage points adds up fast - we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars. If Apple wins? Well, Palm hasn't sold any Pres yet, so its exposure to royalty payments is much lower - and potentially losing some older patents it may or may not even be using doesn't seem like a terrible punishment. Then again, if Palm loses, it probably won't be able to ship the Pre on time or as promised, and that could well be the end of Palm.

So, as others have already noted: this will likely turn out to be a non-issue. Read the article anyway, it's a good 'un.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680 -> Centro

RE: A patent lawyer weighs in
jca666us @ 2/4/2009 6:26:46 AM # Q
Says you - if you actually read the article, you'd see:

Still, we doubt this will all settle quietly in the night. More likely it's going to come down to whoever decides to blink first - and unless Palm decides to go out in a blaze of glory, files a declaratory judgment action and tries to preemptively invalidate Apple's patents, we'd say the first shot's going to come from Cupertino.

After that, it's anyone's guess as to what might happen - this isn't anywhere close to a full-blown patent analysis, and we're sure the attorneys and law students out there will be able to find angles and tactics we've missed.

ambient light sensor <> multitouch implementation on mobile devices.

My Sylvania TV from the 80's had an ambient light sensor in it. Maybe Palm should sue them!

RE: A patent lawyer weighs in
freakout @ 2/4/2009 1:25:34 PM # Q
Are you still here, troll?

ambient light sensor <> multitouch implementation on mobile devices.

In the eyes of a court, it's one and the same. If you are infringing someone's patent you are infringing someone's patent, whether it's for a touchscreen, an ambient light sensor or a toilet seat.

Apple take this to court, they might win. Or it could backfire spectacularly. To continue the selective quoting game:

All you really need to know is that by suing Palm, Apple's putting its iPhone patents at risk, and that's an awful big ante.

No, unless Apple are as supremely stupid as you seem to think they are, this will either go quietly away or some cross-licensing arrangement will be reached. As someone who has worked for both companies has already noted on this site: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7126/#149430

But by all means, keep up with your delusions. It's amusing.

RE: A patent lawyer weighs in
jca666us @ 2/4/2009 9:30:33 PM # Q
>>ambient light sensor <> multitouch implementation on mobile devices.

>In the eyes of a court, it's one and the same. If you are infringing someone's
>patent you are infringing someone's patent, whether it's for a touchscreen, an
>ambient light sensor or a toilet seat.

Must I spell everything out? My point is that the courts could throw out any patent they feel is bogus - and - if you read up on such things - the ambient light sensor patent is alot weaker than the multitouch patent.

>Apple take this to court, they might win. Or it could backfire spectacularly.

Is this an English sentence? Don't you mean "Apple MAY take this to court..."

Palm is at a greater risk here because Palm is a company with alot less cash.

>All you really need to know is that by suing Palm, Apple's putting its iPhone
>patents at risk, and that's an awful big ante.

And if Apple doesn't vigorously defend their patents that also puts them at risk.
They're in a position where they must aggressively defend their patents.

>No, unless Apple are as supremely stupid as you seem to think they are, this will
>either go quietly away or some cross-licensing arrangement will be reached.

Apple is pretty bright - if they have a case they will go on the offensive.
Cross-licensing deals will only come about if they feel there is exposure that they have violated Palm's patents.



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Apple patent filing reveals video chat plans for the iPhone

Gekko @ 2/3/2009 3:18:34 PM # Q
RE: Apple patent filing reveals video chat plans for the iPhone
SeldomVisitor @ 2/3/2009 3:43:13 PM # Q
I would humbly suggest the video chat is for iPhone, Part III, minimally.

RE: Apple patent filing reveals video chat plans for the iPhone
jca666us @ 2/4/2009 6:30:46 AM # Q
Apple also has this patent for placing the video conference camera directly underneath the screen.

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