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Comments on: Rumor: LifeDrive Actually Named the Tungsten X

Brighthand has published new details about the rumored palmOne "LifeDrive". According to their source high end model will actually be named the Tungsten X and will be announced around mid-May.
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LAY IT ON US - We're ready

E Ben G @ 4/14/2005 6:30:23 PM # Q
Cool name, nice memory addition. Now LAY IT ON US ALREADY.

We're ready.

(I can't believe how it is looking more and more like PalmOne isn't going to screw this up!)

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Frenchie @ 4/14/2005 6:32:27 PM # Q
Maybe P1 is actually reading the forums at brighthand, 1src, and PIC and finding out what will get people to buy a really expensive/cool handheld. This is shaping up to be an interesting May.

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p
RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Frenchie @ 4/14/2005 6:34:25 PM # Q
Now that i look at the picture more, i can see an "X" at the very top of the PDA. It is very faint but somewhat noticeable.

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p
RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Puppy @ 4/14/2005 10:05:59 PM # Q
This just keeps getting better and better. Can not wait! One month to go? (I've been PDA-less for a full month now!)

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
lifeaddict @ 4/15/2005 12:46:18 PM # Q
I started with the very first Palm and upgraded several times until I got a Palm V (yes I actually still have a Palm V). I should have upgraded several years ago but I passed on the T3, holding out for the T5, when it was apparent it was a dud I looked at PPC's but just couldn't do it. I ordered a Tapwave 2 weeks ago, heard about the T-X the next day and returned the Tapwave unopened. My Palm V died this morning, so the T-X better be a reality and it better be solid because if it isn't I will no longer have a choice but to go PPC.
RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Fernando @ 4/15/2005 2:18:21 PM # Q
u can still go for the zodiac 2... it's not that bad a palm

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
lifeaddict @ 4/15/2005 3:54:35 PM # Q
I think Tapwave is terrific. They seem to have a focus on product quality that Palm has lacked in recent offerings. I wish they would come out with a power user Palm device -- but maybe, just maybe with the T-X Palm will once again provide a quality product, with a solid warranty and good customer support (I would even settle for the first and the last - but I am not holding my breath)

You are right, if the T-X is another dud Tapwave would be an acceptable alternative -- but I would like to know that I am not buying a dead-end product (last I heard they have no plans to release a product within the next year, and their current offering is 2 years old, so that begs the question -- will they be around another year?).

Further, if the T-X is a dud and with the imminent release of the next version of the Windows Mobile OS, my expectation is that Palm will lose sufficient ground and momentum to PPC devices that rather than maintain or increase market share among business users they will begin a steady decline.

Tapwave's response
Surur @ 4/15/2005 4:21:55 PM # Q

Why dont they release this?

There's enough space in there for a 40 gig hard drive. Add a jog dial and the right kind of buttons, and the right OS, and they will have it made.

Surur

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Surur @ 4/15/2005 4:28:20 PM # Q



RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
viqsi @ 4/15/2005 5:48:41 PM # Q
I would think the reason is that last I checked, Microsoft does not allow anything approaching the level of OS customization that PalmSource does.

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Surur @ 4/15/2005 6:18:16 PM # Q
Clearly not true. This is a win Ce device.

Check out http://www.windowsfordevices.com/ for a wide variety of form factors.

Surur

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Gekko @ 4/15/2005 6:29:42 PM # Q

keep all those palm apologists honest, sursur!



RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
rsc1000 @ 4/16/2005 12:43:36 PM # Q
>>Clearly not true. This is a win Ce device.

Ahhh - but then you have a device that won't run Pocket PC apps - it will run apps written for their flavor (Gizmondo flavor in this case) of ce. Win CE can be thought of as a set of OS components that manufacturers can build into an OS specific to their device using Microsofts Platform Builder (an expensive package designed for manufacturers to use for this purpose).
Windows Mobile is a standardized subset of Win CE, and Pocket PC and Smartphone are in turn, both (kind of) subsets Windows Mobile.

The Gizmondo is not Pocket PC or Smartphone - it will run Win CE apps written for its specific version of Win CE ONLY.

So the point is: WTF would P1 or Tapwave (or who ever) build a PDA that customizes Win CE for their device when there would be no software for it??

Pocket PC and Smartphone are defined subsets of CE with specific standards that OEMs must follow - they are very limited in any customization that they can do. MS has begun to make this standard more flexible (square screen, vga screen) and they might allow greater customization in the future - especially if they thought it would win over companies (including p1) from the competion (palm OS). But currently they do not allow that.

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Rome @ 4/16/2005 1:19:59 PM # Q
rsc1000,

Way to keep those Bill Gates lovers in line:)

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
Surur @ 4/16/2005 5:19:34 PM # Q

rsc1000, you misrepresent how much work Tapwave has done. They have just made a custom launcher, of which there are plenty in the pocketpc world, some even installed by default by the OEM, such as Dashboard or the My XDA screen on some pocketpcphones. The hp rx3715 has a similar dedicated today screen that addresses its supposed media player role.

There is noting on the Zodiac which could not be replicated easily on a windows Mobile device.

Surur

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
eston @ 4/17/2005 1:28:33 AM # Q
"Maybe P1 is actually reading the forums at brighthand, 1src, and PIC and finding out what will get people to buy a really expensive/cool handheld. This is shaping up to be an interesting May."

Has Palm given me a reason to actually start development for Palm OS devices again?

..: eston
http://www.hyalineskies.com/

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
mikecane @ 4/17/2005 10:34:39 AM # Q
>>>There is noting on the Zodiac which could not be replicated easily on a windows Mobile device.

What an idiotic statement.

How does it feel to be the whore of a billionaire pimp?

RE: LAY IT ON US - We're ready
benjin @ 4/17/2005 11:33:59 AM # Q
"How does it feel to be the whore of a billionaire pimp?"

Atleast he's getting some. ;-)

Reply to this comment

X = 10?

Gekko @ 4/14/2005 6:47:47 PM # Q

?

RE: X = 10?
Altema @ 4/14/2005 7:17:52 PM # Q
Let's hope this is a real ten, and not something that comes SOOO close but has a stupid oversight. I looks like they might pull a good one off this time, good enough to retire my T3...

RE: X = 10?
Hal2000 @ 4/14/2005 7:20:08 PM # Q
X= X-Tra Thick
And full of goodies to nake the young wingnuts smile.
Q: Is that a Tungsten X in your pocket?
A: No.

Zodiac2/T616/WiFi'd
RE: X = 10?
He||Raiser @ 4/14/2005 7:48:18 PM # Q
I hope it's good enough to retire my T3; the damn thing is falling apart already.

RE: X = 10?
benjin @ 4/15/2005 5:30:28 AM # Q
The Tungsten X, The Emancipation of the Palm.

Malcolm X
benjin @ 4/15/2005 5:49:25 AM # Q
That was a reference to Malcolm X. I meant to change the Subject.

RE: X = 10?
Ben S @ 4/15/2005 11:18:02 AM # Q
If X == 10, then C == 100... and the Tungsten C was no 100 :-)

RE: X = 10?
I.M Anonymous @ 4/15/2005 3:13:28 PM # Q
TX, becase everything's bigger is TX.

Don't mess with TX.

RE: X = 10?
re-ality @ 4/15/2005 4:58:44 PM # Q
All wrong: we all already know a T-X. It really kicks ass and is a true beauty...

Find it here: http://tinyurl.com/b2b7y

"Hasta la vista, Pocket PC..." ;-)

RE: X = 10?
ackmondual @ 4/16/2005 1:06:09 PM # Q
X = eXceptional, eXcellent, and the 'cross' between wifi + BT on a single device

RE: X = 10?
grg @ 4/18/2005 11:12:19 AM # Q
Actually, for most people in computer world X means uniX. Just as in Mac (though Steve Jobs doesn't want to admit it, calling MacOSX "Mac OS Ten"), the most crucial part of PalmSource's future is delivering a PDA OS ontop of a unix kernel.

Of course in the end, "T-X" will run PalmOS 5.x and, given its monstrous size, it will disappoint.

RE: X = 10?
viqsi @ 4/18/2005 11:47:35 AM # Q
Really? New one on me.

Most of the geeks I'm aware of would think of the X Window System. Which admittedly is used primarily on Unix boxen, but, still.

And on an entirely separate note, this comment posting system desperately needs a "Preview" button, like, yesterday. There's otherwise no way to double-check one's work. (Example: This might not even work.)

Monster Palm™
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/18/2005 2:32:50 PM # Q
Of course in the end, "T-X" will run PalmOS 5.x and, given its monstrous size, it will disappoint.

You won't be disappointed if you keep it in your front pocket.



------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

X1, X2, X3
Masamune @ 4/21/2005 10:23:13 AM # Q
Maybe the X2 and the X3 w/ slider will be slimmer versions with removable battery.

RE: X = 10?
nikosxeng @ 4/26/2005 4:39:34 PM # Q
i think X will be a series, if they hat sucess.. :)

P.S.:Hello to all people here in PIC,
I' m from Greece, this is my first post..
sorry for my English..



some use their PDA in the process in order to they live, other live for their PDA...

Reply to this comment

Wait a second...

UZI4U182 @ 4/14/2005 7:32:41 PM # Q
Palm OS Garnet? The old OS 5? Why do they suck?

UZI4U182@suscom.net
Main PDA: NX70v + WL100
http://clieflash.shorturl.com
RE: Wait a second...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/15/2005 3:47:09 AM # Q
Because, according to what we've heard from the licensees, OS 6 sucks even worse than staying with a hacked and reheated OS 5.

RE: Wait a second...
voice of chaos @ 4/15/2005 8:21:31 AM # Q
Maybe it's Garnet because (a) they've put a lot of effort into customizing Garnet for their needs (b) it's even more expensive to support a new OS, especially one that has not been released before (c) both. No matter how good Cobalt is as an OS it is very hard to convince anyone to adopt it unless the reason is compelling; it remains to be seen if Cobalt ever gets any traction, especially with Palm OS for Linux coming down the pike...


RE: Wait a second...
rsc1000 @ 4/16/2005 1:11:04 PM # Q
>>OS 6 sucks even worse than staying with a hacked and reheated OS 5.

People keep saying this - show me the proof that OS 6 'sucks'.

Anybody can try out OS 6 for themselves: sign up as a developer at palmsource and download the simulator. The problem with OS 6 is :
- low-level hardware drivers (for internal device OEM hardware) must be re-written to use the new OS
- the license cost is apparently higher (the original plan was for Garnet to be cheaper to compete in the smartphone market where license costs are lower then for PDA OS licenses) This has probably changed.
- OEM specific customizations will have to be re-written (although many of these customizations are already in OS 6)

All of this was know to OEMs from day 1 (before the 1st version of Cobolt was released).

P1 has not released a Cobolt device because with their only Palm OS competeion (Sony) out of the picture their is not nearly as much incentive to more pay $$$ on higher lisense fees, driver re-writes, and re-doing custom code. simple. What remains to be seen is whether P1 sees PPC competition as reason to go to Cobolt.

Cobolt gives multitasking and (this is the important part IMO) native APIs that make it easier (no PNOlet work around pain for devs) to just write native code. The really nice openGL-like 2D graphics API and the built-in media framework are also great reasons to go with Cobolt. But these may not be enough. The talked about new interface and openGL have yet to materialize - maybe p1 is waiting for these features before bother to go to Cobolt? Afterall even though it is known what Cobolt is and what it does, the public (including posters here at PIC) seem to have a fuzzy idea of this new OS and are proably expecting a more visible cxhange (there isnt on really - it mostly looks just like OS 5). Knowing this - P1 might be waiting for the talked about palmsource new GUI concept so that users notice the jump to the new OS.



RE: Wait a second...
lifeaddict @ 4/16/2005 2:34:15 PM # Q
At last, some thoughtful analysis, as opposed to pure conjecture, speculation, and opinions posing as stated fact.

I understand Palm's desire to pair a new body to a new engine to ensure greater media coverage and market hype. However, what I don't understand is the apparent lack of a sense of urgency to provide an operating system that not only takes back market leadership from Microsoft and PPC devices but one that will stem the erosion amongst business users.

CobAlt is DOA. Get it trhrough your thick skulls.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/16/2005 3:04:17 PM # Q
CobAlt (Co[ntrol]B[e]Alt[Delete] was a brave gamble for PalmSource, but in the end, they couldn't pull it off. The CMS codemonkeys won't be able to hack CobAlt into PalmLinux in time for anyone to care. WinCE seems destined to win this battle simply by PalmSource forfeit. It shouldn't have been this way.

Morale at PalmSource has reached an all time low and the rats are starting to flee the sinking ship. The DevCom is starting to look like more of a wake these days.

If Mike Cane will pay for a limo to take me down to the PalmSource conference, I'll make sure to verbally abuse "Nero" Nagel until he puts down his fiddle and leaves the building. Make sure to send my bail money too, Cane.

TVoR (the antiMichaelMace)


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Wait a second...
lifeaddict @ 4/16/2005 3:58:15 PM # Q
You are right, it shouldn't have been this way.

RE: Wait a second...
rsc1000 @ 4/17/2005 1:04:18 AM # Q
>>WinCE seems destined to win this battle simply by PalmSource forfeit. It shouldn't have been this way.

No - it shouldn't have been this way. But I don't blame palmsource - they didn't know Sony was about to dump them (or at least didn't know until Cobolt was well underway). I blame p1 for taking the dumb gamble that they could cash in by doing nothing but keeping / raising their insane margins - hoping that all those people fleeing the Sony camp would jump to p1 and they could rake in $ and pocket it without the added expense of moving to Cobolt. The gamble failed and the mis-step was costly (market share lost to MS). That marketshare is HARD to get back.

I think p1 is not doomed. If they can possibly (!) adapt and realize once-and-for-all that you cannot rest on your laurels and treat your customers like chumps, then they have a chance. The Treo brand is huge and a big $ maker. It has a future if they stay ahead of things and avoid stupid Treo 650-like technical mess-ups.

But I am getting off my point: not only is p1 the company to blame for killing Cobolt - but they shot themselves in the foot doing it. We await the final release of the T X to see if they can recover their lost mojo.

RE: Wait a second...
JKingGrim @ 4/17/2005 7:12:19 PM # Q
The talked about new interface and openGL have yet to materialize - maybe p1 is waiting for these features before bother to go to Cobolt? Afterall even though it is known what Cobolt is and what it does, the public (including posters here at PIC) seem to have a fuzzy idea of this new OS and are proably expecting a more visible cxhange (there isnt on really - it mostly looks just like OS 5)

Actually, the new interface has been here for months. Check out the 6.1 sim. It looks nice.

I agree with rsc. I am sick of people saying Cobalt sucks. They do not know what they are talking about. Cobalt is a powerful OS that can multitask, has graphics and multimedia frameworks built in, and removes numerous barriers of the old OS. Developers from companies have came to the forums asking when will Cobalt be out on devices. Some are waiting to begin their development, and some are angry because they have Cobalt apps but no devices to run them on. I still have not heard any evidence that Cobalt sucks. Those who claim Cobalt sucks are not developers so have not seen the APIs, and have never actually used it. PalmOne's current rendition of Garnet seems nearly hacked to instability just to get freatures Cobalt has. PalmOne is only not going to Cobalt because they are lazy and comfortable with no competition.

Cobalt is in no way a failure. Several smartphones are in the works. PalmOne's stupidity will in no way bring down PalmSource. Palm OS can move on without PalmOne.

RE: Wait a second...
Gekko @ 4/17/2005 7:40:07 PM # Q

But the bottom line is nobody wants Cobalt. Can you imagine Dell or HP deciding in 2001 that they will just stick with Windows 98 and not ship any new PCs with Windows XP?

And how many new Axims and Ipaqs do you think will be shipped with anything but Windows Mobile 2005 in 2006?

If Cobalt was so great, licensees would be all over it. If you build quality and offer value and market it, they will come.

Nagel is a con artist. See Copland link below. (Foo - this one's for you!)

http://www.businessweek.com/1995/51/b345595.htm



Wow must be Deja vu for Nagel
Surur @ 4/17/2005 8:27:26 PM # Q
You could take that article, substitute Palmsource for Apple, Cobalt for Copeland and move it 10 years on, and it would all still make perfect sense.

Guess in another 10 years Palm will have a profitable 4% niche marketshare too.

Surur

RE: Wait a second...
JKingGrim @ 4/18/2005 6:42:33 PM # Q
But the bottom line is nobody wants Cobalt. Can you imagine Dell or HP deciding in 2001 that they will just stick with Windows 98 and not ship any new PCs with Windows XP?

If nobody wants Cobalt then why are devices in the works? It is only Palm who won't budge.

A Windows change is extremely easy to do. To ship the new version of Windows you have to do virtually no work. Just up the RAM and Proc speed like they are always doing and you're good. Every version of Windows is virtually interchangeable. And since M$ deosn't allow modification of WindowsMobile I would imagine it is the same story. For PalmOne to move to Cobalt they would have to ditch the hacked up version of Garnet and start all over with thier mods. They have much work to do. This is why they wont move. New licensees however who are just starting out with Palm OS are getting right to buisiness.

RE: Wait a second...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/19/2005 2:40:39 AM # Q
RSC, ask the licensees. PalmOne and others--even PalmSource themselves--have admitted that Cobalt as released was unfit for use. The licencees still feel that way.

JKingGrim, who says there are Cobalt devices on the way? PalmOne doesn't have any coming, and they're the only major licensee. Samsung doesn't seem to have anything on tap. Garmin and Tapwave definitely don't. The latter three are barely in the PalmOS market. That leaves only GSPDA, who *may* have one Cobalt device *if* their noname sibling company delivers on their promised OS support at some undisclosed time later this year. Not a ringing endorsement.

Actually, Windows Mobile is not a 'drop-in' upgrade. Like PalmOS, it has to be tailored to the device. The WM devs are working to make it more modular, and less OEM dependant for upgrades, but it's currently not true that it can't be modified or that it's completely painless to upgrade.

And lastly, if PalmSource had done their jobs properly, most of the things PalmOne has added to the OS would already be in Cobalt.

RE: Wait a second...
mikecane @ 4/19/2005 9:50:27 AM # Q
Battlestar Galactica Commander: Nagel, at the 6.1 coming out party, announced they have 11 licensees and that Cobalt devices are coming this year. Do I believe him? Well, this is also the guy who thought PalmOS was fit for notebooks...

RE: Wait a second...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/20/2005 6:07:46 PM # Q
He also said that Cobalt devices were coming in 2004. And at the 04 DevCon he said that Cobalt based devices were "coming, compelling, and many." We've all seen what a huge lie that was.

Who are those licensees? Well, lets see the list on PalmSource's website.

Aceeca. Did they ever actually produce any hardware? I don't think so. Certainly not mass-market, and nothing for the enterprise market that I'm aware of either.

Alphasmart. A fine tool for well-funded suburban classrooms, and electric typewriter fans, but the niche market is as far as the Dana is going.

Fossil. The comic relief of the market, their Palm OS wristwatch is like slapping a Pentium sticker on a pocket calculator and claiming it's a computer. No future for them.

Garmin. At most, a niche player. At worst, they're moving to Windows with their new models. Nobody knows for sure, but either way not many people are willing to pay $500 for an underfeatured PDA with built-in GPS. Garmin is limited to the ultra-high-end GPS market.

GSPDA. A powerhouse compared to most others on the list, but still a nobody outside Asia. And without more impressive hardware than they've been showing, and service providers to carry their phones, they never will be.

Kyocera. Out of the market.

Lenovo. Never in the market outside China, which they've pretty much given up on anyway.

PalmOne. Despite some anemic performances in the mid-range and the high-end handhelds, P1 is doing pretty well. They haven't avoided being tagged by PalmSource's Cobalt debacle, but they have managed to succeed with the Treo line, and have been more or less holding their own in addition to carrying PalmSource.

PiTech. Who? They've certainly never touched the U.S. market.

Samsung. Nearly out of the market.

Sony. Out of the market.

Symbol. A few antiquated niche units left on sale, so they're still counted as a licensee. But nothing that would beat a Palm Vx for specs.

Tapwave, despite nice specs and decent pricing, hobbled their market entry with an excessive focus on gaming, which would never sell broadly. Too late, they've realised that and tried to turn it into a media player, but the damage was already done. And without a new model until 2006 at the earliest, the company won't survive long enough to get a second chance.

So, we're left with PalmOne as the only licensee that's still sucking oxygen as more than a formality in the larger market. This is what slays me when people say that if PalmOne doesn't do something, another licensee will take up the slack. There are no other licensees.

Long and short of it, the decline of PalmOS can be squarely placed on PalmSource. Their licensee list should include companies like IBM, Panasonic, and RIM. All three of these be interested in a simple and effective platform as a base for their technologies and designs. Toshiba and Dell too.

PalmSource had unquestioned market leadership, and because of idiocy, mismanagement, sloth, bad marketing, and hubris they blew it, lost licensees and developers, and are now resorting to the lie-of-the-week to keep the ship afloat while they seek a miracle cure. So if anyone wonders why I get annoyed at PalmSource, THAT's why.

RE: Wait a second...
JKingGrim @ 4/20/2005 8:56:50 PM # Q
I don't know what licensees. They are probably not listed on PalmSource's website. And so what if P1 is not comming out with Cobalt devices. That does not mean that no one else will. If P1 went out today PalmSource would NOT die. There are devices in the works, and just because you or I do not know who is making them does not mean it is not true.

PalmSource licensees... deconstructed.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/20/2005 10:12:46 PM # Q
Who are those licensees? Well, lets see the list on PalmSource's website.

Aceeca. Did they ever actually produce any hardware? I don't think so. Certainly not mass-market, and nothing for the enterprise market that I'm aware of either.

Alphasmart. A fine tool for well-funded suburban classrooms, and electric typewriter fans, but the niche market is as far as the Dana is going.

Fossil. The comic relief of the market, their Palm OS wristwatch is like slapping a Pentium sticker on a pocket calculator and claiming it's a computer. No future for them.

Garmin. At most, a niche player. At worst, they're moving to Windows with their new models. Nobody knows for sure, but either way not many people are willing to pay $500 for an underfeatured PDA with built-in GPS. Garmin is limited to the ultra-high-end GPS market.

GSPDA. A powerhouse compared to most others on the list, but still a nobody outside Asia. And without more impressive hardware than they've been showing, and service providers to carry their phones, they never will be.

Kyocera. Out of the market.

Lenovo. Never in the market outside China, which they've pretty much given up on anyway.

PalmOne. Despite some anemic performances in the mid-range and the high-end handhelds, P1 is doing pretty well. They haven't avoided being tagged by PalmSource's Cobalt debacle, but they have managed to succeed with the Treo line, and have been more or less holding their own in addition to carrying PalmSource.

PiTech. Who? They've certainly never touched the U.S. market.

Samsung. Nearly out of the market.

Sony. Out of the market.

Symbol. A few antiquated niche units left on sale, so they're still counted as a licensee. But nothing that would beat a Palm Vx for specs.

Tapwave, despite nice specs and decent pricing, hobbled their market entry with an excessive focus on gaming, which would never sell broadly. Too late, they've realised that and tried to turn it into a media player, but the damage was already done. And without a new model until 2006 at the earliest, the company won't survive long enough to get a second chance.

So, we're left with PalmOne as the only licensee that's still sucking oxygen as more than a formality in the larger market. This is what slays me when people say that if PalmOne doesn't do something, another licensee will take up the slack. There are no other licensees.

Long and short of it, the decline of PalmOS can be squarely placed on PalmSource. Their licensee list should include companies like IBM, Panasonic, and RIM. All three of these be interested in a simple and effective platform as a base for their technologies and designs. Toshiba and Dell too.

PalmSource had unquestioned market leadership, and because of idiocy, mismanagement, sloth, bad marketing, and hubris they blew it, lost licensees and developers, and are now resorting to the lie-of-the-week to keep the ship afloat while they seek a miracle cure. So if anyone wonders why I get annoyed at PalmSource, THAT's why.

Guess you might as well kiss your invitation to Nero Nagel's birthday party goodbye.

Fairly accurate summary, by the way.




------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

A point about the accuracy of the above...
Masamune @ 4/21/2005 7:24:07 PM # Q
I'd just like to make a point about PiTech (aka Qool), GSPDA & Xpro - just because its not heading to the US market straight away or indeed my never reach the US market does not mean the device is a failure for PalmSource. The Asian market is large (what was it - 1/5th of the world's population live in China) and before people say "Oh there's no money in the Chinese market" don't forget that Japan is also a big fan of mobile technology and has the currency to back it up. I guess my point is that the US market is not the make & break of a device - its overall worldwide sales and given that these companies are based in China, logic suggests that they would prove their devices in home terratries first, build up a reputation before shipping internationally. I know Qool (Pitech) has European plans at the end of the year. I would also assume that American shipping would follow soon after.

Oh, and knock it off with the Tapwave DOA stuff.
Masamune @ 4/21/2005 7:33:23 PM # Q
What - one comment from a guy once and that's taken as a 100% accurate predicition of the future? A lot can change over the course of a year - no-one saw a T-X coming with a built in hard drive 6 months ago...

RE: Wait a second...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/21/2005 10:14:07 PM # Q
PalmSource's licensees *are* listed on their website. It's really quite clear. Do you think they have secret licensees? In the situation they're in, with as little investor confidence as they have, they would announce any new licensee they got. This is what drives me crazy. Some people insist there are other licensees even when PalmSource's own list says there aren't any other licensees.

The Chinese and Japanese markets aren't going to sustain PalmSource. In Japan, Palm based units are up against not just PocketPCs, but dozens of flavors of proprietary systems--which sell a lot better in Japan than they do here--such as the PSP. The Chinese market is large, and does well at sustaining its native companies, but ultimately the volume there is in low-end cell phones, which doesn't really suit PalmSource. PS must have NorthAm and Europe markets to really flourish.

PalmOne has a regular release cycle, and plenty of capital to build new models. We always knew that they would come out with new models. Tapwave is a small startup, and doesn't have the same capital and engineering capability that PalmOne does. On top of that, they've quite clearly stated their intentions. Once they realize that the Zodiac isn't going to take off, they may try to build and push another model, but it's anyone's guess whether or not they'll have the capital by then.

RE: Wait a second...
Gekko @ 4/21/2005 11:13:55 PM # Q

"Don't shoot the messenger."

Mike Cane, Fortune Teller...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/22/2005 12:12:41 AM # Q
I'd just like to make a point about PiTech (aka Qool), GSPDA & Xpro - just because its not heading to the US market straight away or indeed my never reach the US market does not mean the device is a failure for PalmSource. The Asian market is large (what was it - 1/5th of the world's population live in China) and before people say "Oh there's no money in the Chinese market" don't forget that Japan is also a big fan of mobile technology and has the currency to back it up. I guess my point is that the US market is not the make & break of a device - its overall worldwide sales and given that these companies are based in China, logic suggests that they would prove their devices in home terratries first, build up a reputation before shipping internationally. I know Qool (Pitech) has European plans at the end of the year. I would also assume that American shipping would follow soon after.

China likes free, stolen, almost free and open source. That means Linux flavors and ultra-cheap or ultra-basic phone OSes. PalmOS is neither. Japan has little interest in PalmOS - Sony was the only company selling any number of PalmOS PDAs and they've pulled out for now and are throwing their resources behind the can't-miss monster hit also known as PSP.

PiTech's product looks like the overly-ambitious product of a electronics hobbyist. Nice try. It has a snowball's chance in New Jersey of making it.

As far as PalmOS is concerned, without the US and (to a lesser degree, EuroWorld), they have nothing. Just look at how Palm's sales have gone by continent over the years. In 2004, Palm must have sold around a couple dozen PDAs in China. So much for that China MobileSoft deal opening up that legendary massive untapped Chinese market... I coulda been a contenda...


Oh, and knock it off with the Tapwave DOA stuff.
Masamune @ 4/21/2005 7:33:23 PM

What - one comment from a guy once and that's taken as a 100% accurate predicition of the future? A lot can change over the course of a year - no-one saw a T-X coming with a built in hard drive 6 months ago...

Get serious. Tapwave was a Dead Company Walking as soon as it announced its business model. They might have had a chance if they had the brains to put the Zodiac 2 hardware into a black metal Tungsten E sized case. But they didn't and will eventually go the way of the dodo. No one wants big, dorky-looking PDAs - no matter how good the specs are (and Tapwave's specs ARE good, even today).

The post outlining PalmSource's licensees was brutally honest and even perhaps a bit generous. If PalmSource can get PalmOS onto the Sony PSP, Nintendo DS (+ its rumored PSP-class follow-up), and a dozen or so INEXPENSIVE, small, brand name cellphones before the year is out, they will survive and maybe even prosper. Otherwise, it's Game Over. The Cobalt Debacle took what little wind PalmSource had left out of their sails. Too bad the greedy ba$tards created that artificial split of Palm last year. Motorola, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, Sanyo, LG, etc. should have been STRONGLY encouraged to ship PalmOS phones by offering them ultra-cheap licenses. Instead, PalmSource has the best phone OS that no one wants. A lot of good that will do the company.

As for the Palm with a built-in hard drive: the only surprise is W T F it took Palm so long to produce this. The parts are all off-the-shelf and have been around for years. EVEN MIKE CANE PREDICTED THIS. IN 2001. Last time I checked, this was 2005. Way to go Palm!

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=2754



------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

Congrats, Cane, your 2001 Sony prediction was almost right.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/22/2005 1:48:36 AM # Q
You were just off a little on the timing. Sony licensed the IBM/Hitachi Microdrive technology in 2004 and now makes their own Microdrives. The follow-up PalmOS media player after the VZ90 was expected to ship with a Microdrive onboard. Had a stable, fully developed Cobalt (PalmOS 6) been available to Sony in early 2004, I believe the VZ90 would have shipped with a Microdrive last year, trumping Palm by at least 6 months.

With the PSP expected to drive sales of extremely profitable large capacity Memory Sticks (this strategy is reportedly already working as people are now starting to use their PSPs as portable video players!), I doubt we'll be seeing the relatively inexpensive Microdrives in any of Sony's consumer electronics any time soon. The PSP is analogous to Gillette giving away razors in order to make money selling blades (games + Memory Sticks). Very clever. Nintendo is fcuked. Totally.


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

Wow - I agree with you on something : )
Masamune @ 4/22/2005 4:57:50 AM # Q
While I disagree with your doom & gloom predictions for Palm OS, I am bang alongside you over THIS prediction:

"Nintendo is fcuked."

Royally - DS sales have been pathetic in the UK because everyone is hanging on the PSP.

PalmOS vs. Sony PSP vs. Nintendo DS. And the winner is...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/23/2005 7:37:26 PM # Q
First of all, the DS is strictly for the Little Kiddies (6 - 12 year olds), so it can quickly be dispensed with. If Nintendo can't bring out a PSP fighter that competes spec for spec with PSP, they'll have lost all credibility in the gaming world. Even the new kid on the block, Xbox, is kicking Nintendo's a$$. The DS will soon be repositioned as an ultra-cheap Kiddie toy and they'll try to undercut PSP significantly on price. But it won't matter - DS is already getting laughed out of town.

PSP can and will add intuitive PIM, browser, email and video player/desktop converter apps and become a multimedia powerhouse, but it still lacks PalmOS. And its gaming form factor limitations put it at a disadvantage to PalmOS devices.

PalmOS + 6 GB Microdrive + CompactFlash slot + 8 hour battery + OLED screen + slick MP3 player (and iTunes style desktop app) + easy to use MPEG converter, all selling for $499 would put Palm back in the game. Quickly. Next month's feeble new Palm offering is significant mainly for showing yet again how Palm seems intent on squandering every opportunity it has to be successful.

The Multimedia CLIEs would have been KILLER devices that would have shown everyone what an overpriced joke iPods really are. Will Tapwave be able to scrape up the venture capital needed to build a Multimedia Palm? We'll see, but I'd be surprised to see them still in business in 12 months. Nice knowing ya, Peng...


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Wait a second...
Masamune @ 4/24/2005 12:11:00 PM # Q
I'll say this for the Zodiac - at least it isn't a Gizmondo (or more accurately Gizmondodo). I was up in London this weekend and went in the "Flagship Store" - deserted. Completely deserted. It's also taken a hell of a hammering in reviews and it doesn't the Tapwave's versatility to redeem it.

A little Off-Topic, but I thought it needed to be said.

RE: Wait a second...
Surur @ 4/24/2005 3:29:03 PM # Q

You will have to look very far to find many people who expect that device to be a success. The OS is irrelevant if they dont give you access to the device to run your own programs. Its also really stupid for a small company to go up against Nintendo and Sony.

They have my sympathies though.

Surur

RE: Wait a second...
Masamune @ 4/25/2005 5:48:02 AM # Q
Here's a thought: - would the Gizmondo have been a success if it had been running Palm OS, Windows Mobile or a Mobile Mac OS?

RE: Wait a second...
Surur @ 4/25/2005 7:46:12 AM # Q

Maybe if Apple made one, as they have amazing mindshare and market goodwill currently. Otherwise any small company just does not have the resources to face down Sony or Nintendo, no matter what the OS. This is especially true if they face them on directly on their own battleground i.e. single use gaming devices. The only reason Tapwave is still alive is because they targeted a niche market with a multifunction device. Unfortunately they chose to target the wrong OS. If they went the multi-function Windows Mobile route they would have had much more (but still limited) success. The must have started development when it still looked like Palm OS would prevail.

The truth is that most people tell themselves they need PDA's for business. Even when consumers buy PDA's you have to make them business friendly, and business use and a gaming form factor are largely incompatible, mainly due to the stares you would get from your co-workers.

Surur


Mike Cane: any more predictions, Swami?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/7/2005 3:02:24 PM # Q
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=2754

Nice to see ONE of your wild guesses finally come true. Your batting average just shot up to .0025. Way to go, Mike!

I trust pa1mOne has sent you the new Palm to review by now? Sucker.


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Wait a second...
mikecane @ 5/7/2005 7:20:48 PM # Q
Yeah: Someday a REAL rain will come and wash away trash like you...

Reply to this comment

I'm In

Timothy Rapson @ 4/14/2005 7:47:13 PM # Q
That's it. I wasn't considering it, but now that I know it will have a cool name like X (Z might have gotten me, but X is just perfect.) I am definitely getting one. Don't care if the screen is dim or the battery life is bad. I NEED A PDA NAMED X. Just plain need it.
Can't wait. Anyone know who is taking pre-orders?

RE: I'm In
benjin @ 4/15/2005 9:40:44 AM # Q
Cooool, I have this car named pinto X, I'll sell it to you. Then your PDA can match!



RE: I'm In
Ba-gug @ 4/15/2005 3:53:31 PM # Q
I can add an AMC Gremlin X with the Levi Jeans seats.

"Hambug or Ba-gug, that's me.!"
RE: I'm In
UZI4U182 @ 4/17/2005 12:59:00 PM # Q
Nice, Ba-gug! I'll take it!

UZI4U182@suscom.net
Main PDA: NX70v + WL100
http://clieflash.shorturl.com
Reply to this comment

Glad I bought the T5!

Tubule @ 4/14/2005 8:00:27 PM # Q
Specs are nice but "twice the thickness of the T5"? How much will this thing weigh? I already have a Treo600 on one hip and they want me to carry this too? My pants would be falling down. This thing is going to be small niche product me thinks. But on the bright side, it is one step closer to the Tablet market and that's where Palm should be heading to make up for the shrinking PDA space as smartphones continue their growth.

RE: Glad I bought the T5!
phoneboy @ 4/14/2005 11:47:42 PM # Q
Pants falling down? Sounds like just the device for Gen Y.

RE: Glad I bought the T5!
AdamaDBrown @ 4/15/2005 3:49:11 AM # Q
Rumors of the handheld market's death have been greatly exaggerated. Rumors of smartphone growth even more so.

RE: Glad I bought the T5!
bhartman34 @ 4/15/2005 6:50:03 AM # Q
I bought the T5, and despite some of its flaws (lack of Wi-Fi, somewhat tempermental reliability) I'm glad that I did now. The Tungsten X sounds like a brick, if it's two T5's put together. Of course, if it's actually got a hard drive in it, it's *got* to have more heft than a conventional Palm, but if the thing doesn't fit in my pocket (of a dress shirt) that's a deal-breaker for me.

RE: Glad I bought the T5!
InsGuy @ 4/15/2005 11:46:16 AM # Q
I agree. This is too thick for a lot of people. But, this is definitely one feature-packed pda from Palm. I'm glad to see that they are including a lot of features that people have been wanting for a long time.

All good things...
Shirt pocket??
ackmondual @ 4/16/2005 1:17:38 PM # Q
How many ppl here actually keep PDAs in their shirt pocket? I would imagine women's attire doesn't typically have shirt pockets so that leaves about a small half of us here out. My glasses usually fall out when I lean over. I would NOT trust my PDA to take its place at nearly 2 feet higher. At twice the thickness of a T5, pocket pants should still be doable. I just tried putting my z71 and T3 in my pocket side by side and at least that's fine... save for how heavy the TX will really be.
RE: Shirt pocket???
bhartman34 @ 4/16/2005 11:26:38 PM # Q
Hi, ackmondual.

A pants pocket is not doable for me. I'm in a wheelchair, so the choices are shirt pocket or front pouch of my chair. In my front pouch, the PDA isn't readily available when I'm sitting at a table. (And there's a greater chance of me dropping it pulling it out of there.) If it's not something I can put in my pocket, it gets a *lot* less use, and I'm not going to spend $500+ on something without getting a hell of a lot of use out of it. Anyway, I'd imagine that a back pocket isn't the safest place for a PDA, anyway, is it? (Not working from personal experience here, obviously...)

RE: Glad I bought the T5!
ackmondual @ 4/17/2005 2:39:23 AM # Q
Nah, don't know of any1 who would dare to put a PDA in their back pocket. If ya sit down, it may break, unless u keep it in a hard case. Some ppl will always remember to take it out or transfer it to the front, and I scarcely do that.
RE: Glad I bought the T5!
svrontis @ 4/17/2005 2:43:37 AM # Q
A couple of weeks back, Mr Gekko posted a link to the Palm Addicts blog. He titled his post 'honest review of T5' (or something like that). The link referred to the story of a user who was having problems with his T5.

Here is another link to Palm Addicts:

http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2005/04/t5_180_degrees_.html

This is an update posted by the same user. He discovered that the problems were caused by a single program (even though the developer claimed that it was conpatible with the T5).

Note also that Mr Gekko has not posted this new link for our information, presumably because he has some axe to grind against the T5. You can judge for yourself.

Reply to this comment

64MB?

mikecane @ 4/14/2005 8:09:39 PM # Q
I doubt 64MB of RAM. If it has anything that adds up to 64 in terms of chips, it'll probably be 32MB "invisible" real RAM and 32MB of FRAM. I'm not cheering until the specs are officially announced -- and not even then, until it's in the hands of us "wingnuts" who will discover the truth (well, the adept "wingnuts" will; I'll take their -- and not p1's -- word for it).

RE: 64MB?
DevPOV @ 4/14/2005 9:53:42 PM # Q
64 MB sounds reasonable to me since the hard-drive probably needs as much cache space as it can get to keep the batteries going. At that price, though, they should ship it with at least 128 MB.

RE: 64MB?
benjin @ 4/15/2005 6:02:56 AM # Q
Yeah Dev, I think you're on to something with the battery note, the hard drive should be shunned for normal pda usage to increase battery life.

This makes for an interesting thought. Suppose the HD isn't even really accessible by the OS... what if only the MP3 player sees it and otherwise it just acts as any other USB Harddrive when plugged into a computer? T'would be ridiculous 'eh?

RE: 64MB?
DevPOV @ 4/15/2005 10:36:23 AM # Q
Ridiculous, yes, unexpected? No.

RE: 64MB?
bigfoot @ 4/15/2005 3:48:21 PM # Q
Brighthand is reporting a source at p1 has confirmed 64 Meg with 57 meg for users.

When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
Reply to this comment

Comes with Normsoft's Pocket Tunes. COOL~!!

batmon @ 4/14/2005 9:54:37 PM # Q
I am glad to hear that. PTune rocks. TX is now like iPod for adults.

Hope there is a way to MOD the 4GB HDD to something bigger tho...

RE: Comes with Normsoft's Pocket Tunes. COOL~!!
dm @ 4/14/2005 10:45:10 PM # Q
I was waiting for someone to suggest a mod for bigger HDD. I guess its just a matter of time before someone tries. Are these the same HDD found in iPod's ? what are they like 1.5"??

RE: Comes with Normsoft's Pocket Tunes. COOL~!!
None_of_Your_Busines @ 4/15/2005 9:43:04 AM # Q
The best part about this is Pocket Tunes will be able to work with Real's Rhapsody streaming music service. This currently offers over 80,000 songs and 60 commercial-free radio stations.


RE: Comes with Normsoft's Pocket Tunes. COOL~!!
Surur @ 4/15/2005 11:07:47 AM # Q

Is this confirmed? I'm a Rhapsody subscriber, and would be interested in that functionality. Their website does not seem to make any mention of this.

Surur

RE: Comes with Normsoft's Pocket Tunes. COOL~!!
batmon @ 4/15/2005 3:28:07 PM # Q
I have PTunes and I tried with ShoutCast and it works fine. You go to your web borwser and click the link, then Pocket Tunes will play the streaming music.

The thing I like about Pocket Tunes is that they add a "connector" to Windows Media Players. You can sync your music through media players just like iPod and iTunes.

Reply to this comment

Going Commando?

E Ben G @ 4/14/2005 11:16:18 PM # Q
I don't see any attachments at all for a flip-cover or case. I wonder if palmOne is thinking many users will go no-case-in-pocket, iPod style.

RE: Going Commando?
Marshall Flinkman @ 4/15/2005 4:02:28 PM # Q
Maybe, but the touchscreen makes it more of an issue IMHO. Personally, since all the size comparisons are to the T5, I'd like to see it compared to the T3 or the C--size and weight.

Reply to this comment

What the heck is Lightpipe?

E Ben G @ 4/14/2005 11:18:20 PM # Q
Have any of the other threads produced any notions about whether this 'lightpipe' will have some added functionality. Or is it just an oddly named on/off/charge light?

RE: What the heck is Lightpipe?
Colormeweb @ 4/15/2005 9:16:06 AM # Q
The "lightpipe" is a very small neon light that is inset around the entire outside edge. It is meant to attract younger users that would normally go out and buy an ipod.

RE: What the heck is Lightpipe?
I.M Anonymous @ 4/15/2005 3:06:31 PM # Q
^Umm, no. That is not at all what a lightpipe is.

A lightpipe is like a crude fiber optic. It is simply a transparent piece of plastic that can channel light from one location to another. If you've ever taken apart an optical mouse (or looked closely at the bottom of one), the little clear piece of plastic between the LED and the bottom of the mouse is a lightpipe.

Similarly, on most comuter cases, the power and HDD LEDs don't actually stick out of the front of the case, but are mounted further back and transmit their light through a lightpipe to the front of the case.

Now, on the TX, using a lightpipe would allow them the flexibility of mounting the status LED or LEDS further inside the body, and would allow them to have several LEDs (perhaps different colors) which all shine through the same lightpipe to the same indicator. Heck, we could see one light that showed flashing green for charging, green for fully charged, red for low battery, white for alarms, blue for a bluetooth signal, purple for a wifi signal, and orange for hard drive access.

RE: What the heck is Lightpipe?
RhinoSteve @ 4/15/2005 5:01:36 PM # Q
"TX" -- I think someone was watching the Terminator movies a lot when they named this!
RE: What the heck is Lightpipe?
Gekko @ 4/15/2005 5:13:16 PM # Q

here's Con with one in action -

http://thestranger.com/2002-04-11/city3-1.jpg



RE: What the heck is Lightpipe?
mikecane @ 4/15/2005 8:29:24 PM # Q
Revealed at last! Where Gekko really lives:

http://graciaszalon.freeweb.hu/Gekko.jpg

RE: What the heck is Lightpipe?
cbowers @ 4/15/2005 10:02:18 PM # Q
"...several LEDs (perhaps different colors) which all shine through the same lightpipe to the same indicator. Heck, we could see one light that showed flashing green for charging, green for fully charged, red for low battery, white for alarms, blue for a bluetooth signal, purple for a wifi signal, and orange for hard drive access."

...er you mean white (all colors combined) when you have hard drive access while fully charged, with both Bluetooth and Wifi on?

We aware aren't we that red, green, and amber can all be done with a single tri-mode LED?

As for the sentiment though, I do miss the informative green/red solid/blinking LED on my previous HandEra 330, for missed alarms and charging status.



RE: What the heck is Lightpipe?
ackmondual @ 4/16/2005 1:25:12 PM # Q
multi-colored LED light sounds cool, but frankly, i'd rather they do what's alr been done on the clies. Have a seperate indicator light for BT, wifi, mp3 access, and whatever else they've got.

The tr650 alr uses a system similar to the new TX will do.

RE: What the heck is Lightpipe?
JKingGrim @ 4/17/2005 7:22:55 PM # Q
Hmmm. Thats a lot of LEDs. Why not just go with this. Costs less. Who wants a PDA with 5 blinking lights?

Reply to this comment

WiFi

davidp @ 4/15/2005 12:47:47 AM # Q
This thing better have WPA and 802.1x support....

I haven't been able to use my T|C at work since I tightened up security and I've been itching for the next professional model from Palm so I can reconnect to my network.

If this model doesn't have 802.1x support then I don't think that Palm are serious about corporate use of their products, and as much as I dislike them, when it comes time to replace the T|T fleet I'll be looking seriously at Windows Mobile devices.

David

RE: WiFi
Ralluna @ 4/15/2005 5:50:00 AM # Q
"I'll be looking seriously at Windows Mobile devices." for professional use ? Are you kidding ? I have never seen worse implementation of "Office" compatibility that MS has done in the PPC/WMobile world. Perhaps they are too busy fixing the OS flaws. I use an old T|T and overpasses the functionality PocketPC offers now for $500. I read the email on the go agaisnt our IMAP4 server (via bluetooth DUN), connect to my desktop via an ICA client, mount samba volumes from our corporative server, and edit a few Office documents without the "format removing feature" that occur in PPC devices.
Office compatibility
Surur @ 4/15/2005 7:38:02 AM # Q

DocsToGo is third party software. So is Textmaker. http://www.softmaker.de/tmp_en.htm

Your argument is specious at best, and you did not offer a solution to his specific problem.

Surur

RE: WiFi
Surur @ 4/15/2005 7:43:09 AM # Q

BTW, there is no Textmaker for Palm, despite development since 2003. Wonder why they never succeeded, depsite having a Textmaker for windows, Windows Mobile, Linux and the Zaurus.

Maybe Palm Os is a nightmare to develop for...

Surur

RE: WiFi
Ralluna @ 4/15/2005 9:20:21 AM # Q
"you did not offer a solution to his specific problem."
It is not possible to offer a solution to a problem that does not exist yet. Or perhaps the Tungsten X has been released and I didn't noticed?

"DocsToGo is third party software" that IS INCLUDED FREE with any Palm device sold. Or perhaps you don't know it, Surur ? BTW DocsToGo, offers better performance and functionalities than any Microsoft software for PPC/WMobile. This is a FACT reflected in any review you can look for in google.

Also, Textmaker, from my point of view, is a great WORDPROCESSOR,
did you noticed ? Dou you really think that EXCEL and PPT are prescindible ? No in real work environments.

RE: WiFi
JonnyT @ 4/15/2005 9:31:44 AM # Q
Documents to Go is bundled with Tungsten Palms and is installed in ROM so I think someone ought to check their facts. I have both a PPC and a T3 and believe me we are talking light years better office compatibility on the Palm. PPC word and Excel are absolutely useless.

RE: WiFi
Surur @ 4/15/2005 9:56:02 AM # Q
Whats prescindible ?

btw softmaker.de also does planmaker http://www.softmaker.de/pmp_en.htm which is a very nice excel clone. There are also a few powerpoint viewers available.

Third party means produced by some-one other than Palmsource. Remember, we are talking about an OS here, not a particular device. DocsToGo is not included with all palms. Just because PocketInformant ships with the HP4700 does not mean suddenly its part of the OS.

Remember, we are talking about a platform function which is not available. The software he needs to do his job is a different story all together, and is available on both platforms, and of better quality in the pocketpc world.

Surur

Bundled software costs you
Surur @ 4/15/2005 10:14:15 AM # Q

Also a further point. If its third party software that company has to be paid in some way. Unless its included in the base OS every piece of bundled software raises the price you pay for the unit. Maybe thats why palms cost more for the same or poorer hardware.

Fujitsu-Siemens does it better. They give you points, which you can redeem for the software of your choice, including Textmaker and Planmaker. http://www.pocketloox-choice.com/category.php?cat=2

A better way of doing it, isn't it?

Surur

RE: WiFi
davidp @ 4/15/2005 10:20:48 AM # Q
Huh? How did my comment about being able to connect securely to my existing, extensive wireless network turn into a debate about office apps?

I said I didn't like Windows Mobile devices, and I agree, Palm is more than up to the task for office type apps.

What I want to do is allow a lot more staff the freedom to mostly check their mail and their calendar - the same freedom that I used to have before I had to chuck WEP out the door and tighten up a bit.

I have nine remote sites and a main office all covered by wireless and eventually want to replace the managers'T|T fleet with something that provides a bit more functionality for them as they move around the city rather than being tied to a cradle.

Bluetooth is a good suggestion, but I already have an extensive wifi network in place - as I suspect do many corporate workplaces - and I want to make use of it.

What I'm suggesting is that if PalmOne only has WEP in the Tungsten X then I don't think they are serious about this device being used by the corporate sector - because no one in the corporate sector is seriously using WEP any more. If they are still using WEP, then they don't take their security too seriously.....

David


RE: WiFi
DevPOV @ 4/15/2005 10:42:32 AM # Q
prescindible (Spanish) = nonessential

RE: WiFi
Surur @ 4/15/2005 11:02:02 AM # Q
davidp said
Huh? How did my comment about being able to connect securely to my existing, extensive wireless network turn into a debate about office apps?

Exactly. Its like telling some-one you are upgrading to a truck because you need to haul a lot of building material, and being told you should stick with a bicycle because the exercise is good for you.

Irrelevant and not addressing the problem.

Surur

RE: WiFi
InsGuy @ 4/15/2005 11:50:54 AM # Q
Davidp,

Your comment didn't. There are ALWAYS people out there waiting to try and flame ppc. Unlike most intelligent people, these 'hardcore fanatics' for lack of a better phrase, are blind to the fact that ppc works for some people better than Palm, and for others, Palm works better than ppc. Don't worry to much about comments like you got.

All good things...

RE: WiFi
Ralluna @ 4/15/2005 12:39:37 PM # Q
Dear davip, I completly agree on your point of view about WEP/802.11x, but the new device haven't been released, we even don't know the final specs. Let's see what's out. What I find argueable is the extrapolation of that (old) issue to the office environment as a whole. I hard defense Palm supperiority in this field, at least in my experience. If Microsoft had a simmilar advantage, Palm platform would be crushed in seconds.

From my office use description I am only backing up this point. I think sometimes we don't realize we (Palm community) are ahead over Microsoft platform (obviously not in all aspects, but yes in some key ones), but we also have to keep demanding from Palm. I think this is good for the market and for the users.

Reply to this comment

4GB, that probably means FAT32

fanoush @ 4/15/2005 3:59:16 AM # Q
Current handhelds from palmOne support only FAT16 which is limited to 2GB. I wonder whether they'll bite the bullet and start supporting FAT32 or whether it means there will be 2 FAT16 partitions.

I hope the fat32 driver can be copied to T5 or E2 too if T-X will have it. It would be nice to have 4gig SD card in T5. No need for bulky T-X then.

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
batmon @ 4/15/2005 3:34:33 PM # Q
Zodiac has two SD slots so 2GB + 2GB SD cards = 4GB.

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
viqsi @ 4/15/2005 5:56:14 PM # Q
1) The Zodiac is larger than the T5 (and possibly the X), so that does not solve the size issue brought up.
2) Two separate cards automatically imples two different file systems, so this is not relevant to the point about FAT32 driver speculation.

Please explain how this reply is relevant. I'm curious.

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
AdamaDBrown @ 4/16/2005 1:31:08 AM # Q
There currently are no 4 GB SD cards. Manufacturers are having a hard enough time trying to make 2 GB cards at $200 a piece. We won't see 4 GB SD cards for some time.

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
jdfdc7 @ 4/18/2005 9:58:13 AM # Q
Dell is selling 2GB SD cards for $145.59

CompactFlash vs. SD vs. MicroDrive
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/18/2005 2:37:30 PM # Q
It would be nice to have 4gig SD card in T5. No need for bulky T-X then.

8 MB CompactFlash cards are already available. SD sucks severely.

SD is a scam. SDIO is the biggest scam.™



------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
mikecane @ 4/18/2005 3:00:44 PM # Q
Memory Schtick is scam+.

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
hkklife @ 4/18/2005 3:01:47 PM # Q
Voice (or anyone else), do you know if the CF-supporting Clies (and even the HE330) are limitd to 1gb or 2gb CF memory cards?

I mean, I figure that 2gb might be a reach under these older devices & FAT16 but I'd certainly expect them to handle 1gb CF cards with ease.

SD is not an inherently bad format--just plagued with early issues dumped on it nearly entirely by SanDisk in their rush to corner the retail market. Once it matured and broke past the 128mb ceiling, SD has really gained some traction these past two years or so. I personally would never go with a flash card that was physically smaller, as that is just begging to get lost/misplaced.

I am fine with the market being pretty much halved between SD on the low to midrange of the "consumer" and CF taking the pro & prosumer segments of the market (at least for digicams). For PDAs, I like the way the hp has long done it--single SDIO for cheap devices and CF/SDIO for the pricer iPaqs.

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
AdamaDBrown @ 4/19/2005 2:52:33 AM # Q
VoR, I think you mean 8 *GB* CF cards? Because 8 MB isn't that impressive.

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/20/2005 10:17:07 PM # Q
Even old hardware could address 2 GB. I don't have a 4 or 6 MB MicroDrive, so I can't answer that. I believe the VZ90 can accept Microdrive, despite every website on the Internet saying otherwise (repeating the identical, plagiarized statement).

Yes I meant to say 8 GB CF cards are available.


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: 4GB, that probably means FAT32
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/20/2005 11:32:27 PM # Q
I don't have a 4 or 6 GB MicroDrive...

Don't use drugs, kids.


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

Reply to this comment

T-X? Wasn't that from some movie?

Masamune @ 4/15/2005 6:56:27 AM # Q
Nice. The world's first PDA with shape changing ability and a penchant for hunting down deliquent teenagers...

RE: T-X? Wasn't that from some movie?
Billav @ 4/15/2005 6:13:08 PM # Q
So was T2, for that matter

Reply to this comment

Leading again!

asiayeah @ 4/15/2005 11:03:18 AM # Q
I know there's some Linux-based PDA with embedded HD, but there's no Pocket PC with embedded HD. Am I right?

Finally, PalmOne is innovating again and brining PDA with embedded HD and non-volatile memory to the masses!

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: Leading again!
AdamaDBrown @ 4/15/2005 12:47:00 PM # Q
There used to be. Toshiba had a model with a 1 GB Microdrive a couple of years ago, but they don't make them anymore. It was decomissioned partly due to age, partly to the fact that it was never a big sales success even in Japan. Also, most PocketPCs have access to CompactFlash removable microdrives if they want.

RE: Leading again!
mikecane @ 4/15/2005 4:39:47 PM # Q
The Microdrive was the standard CF one, bundled in the box. It was not built into the GENIO.

Built-in microdrives better?
Surur @ 4/15/2005 4:47:12 PM # Q
Im sure when some-one is brave enough to open up a t x the microdrive will also be pretty standard.

There are a number of disadvantages to having a built-in microdrive. It is less upgradeable, when it breaks you can not replace it easily, and you can not remove it and place it in a dedicated card reader to fill it up faster.

The only real advantage to having a microdrive built-in is knowing you have it in there, making it a hardware platform you can build on e.g Palm Video Player vs Video player for Palm. I actually think that is quite important, and a positive more. Together with real non-volatile memory this makes for a device that can be used to the full for media, in much the same way as an Ipod.

Best of luck to Palm.

Surur

RE: Leading again!
djfusion @ 4/15/2005 6:07:50 PM # Q
You're referring to the Sharp Zaurus SL-C3000. Read a review [url=http://tinyurl.com/caack]here[/url]

RE: Leading again!
djfusion @ 4/15/2005 6:09:51 PM # Q
Oops, sorry. That link should work, but if my attempt at formatting (didn't know you couldn't use it here!) messed it up, here's the link again:

http://tinyurl.com/caack

RE: Leading again!
mikecane @ 4/15/2005 8:32:49 PM # Q
I just Googled. Odd, no pictures of a disassembled Zaurus. The otaku are slacking...

RE: Leading again!
djfusion @ 4/15/2005 9:43:22 PM # Q
Hah, just wait. Of course, you could volunteer to buy one and disassemble it. I almost got one over my T3 (after much more saving, of course) and kinda regret that decision now. Oh well. This'll do me for the next few years. If it survives. :)

Zaurus pics
Surur @ 4/16/2005 5:41:06 AM # Q

Mike, you need to work on those google skills. Note that this is the effort T-x users will have to go to to replace or upgrade their hard drive, while PPC users can simply pull it out of their CF slot.

http://www.ayati.com/kobako/c3bara.htm

Surur


RE: Leading again!
Timothy Rapson @ 4/16/2005 8:43:50 AM # Q
Ah, Surur, you are the GoogleMaster of images. Great work.

But, you have reminded me how badly I want one of those Zaurii. Oh, the pleasureful pain of handheld addiction.

RE: Leading again!
tompi @ 4/17/2005 7:47:45 AM # Q
"Finally, PalmOne is innovating again and brining PDA with embedded HD and non-volatile memory to the masses!"

I'm sorry, how is it "innovating" if they do the same thing that Linux PDAs have been doing for a year now?

RE: Leading again!
mikecane @ 4/17/2005 10:39:07 AM # Q
I notice surur didn't post a link. Hmmmm...

RE: Leading again!
mikecane @ 4/17/2005 10:40:11 AM # Q
Slapping myself upside the head. Too early for me to post. I saw the link 2nd time around. DUH!

Reply to this comment

It'll be out around May 19

kevdo @ 4/16/2005 1:23:46 AM # Q
Just got a notice that PalmOne will be hosting another "Palm-a-la-pooza" at their headquarters on May 19. Typically, this is an open event for all Bay Area user groups to attend. The last time they did this was the night before they introduced the T3 (we were all under NDA for about 60 mins prior to the midnight EST launch).

So, expect that the Tungsten X will be out by May 20th at latest.

This is a great event so if you're in the area definitely try to make it. Of course, May 19 is when Star Wars opens so it kind of sucks to be a geek on a day like that when you want to be in two places at once!

-Kevin Crossman, Palm Powered Software Champion

RE: It'll be out around May 19
Masamune @ 4/21/2005 10:21:03 AM # Q
Decisions, decisions...

RE: It'll be out around May 19
potter @ 4/22/2005 2:51:28 PM # Q
The PalmSource Mobile Summit & Developers 2005 Conference is May 24th to 26th (http://www.palmsource.com/events/devcon2005/). If PalmOne announces the Tungsten X before or on the first day of this conference, I could see that PalmOne would then have a bunch of break out sessions on the new features of the Tungsten X during this conference.

Reply to this comment

Tungsten X LifeDrive

Bobliert @ 4/16/2005 3:57:48 AM # Q
I've got a test model in my hand. On the case it's called Tungsten X, but during boot-up it displays Lifedrive.
It quite chunky, but still ok for me. It's about 50% thicker than the T3. Part of that is because the screen is inset about 2mm below the outer edges.
One big disappointment is the battery is not 'user replaceable'.
Wifi and bluetooth.


Where the hell did you get a test model?
Masamune @ 4/16/2005 4:17:50 AM # Q
Any indication of what battery life is like? More importantly, is the Wifi easy to configure.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
PDASuperfreak @ 4/16/2005 7:44:13 AM # Q
You have a test model? Give us ALL the details!!!

- steve

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Adrenochrome @ 4/16/2005 7:55:25 AM # Q
Excuse me... "boot up?"

Tungsten X LifeDrive
ender wiggins @ 4/16/2005 9:07:17 AM # Q
Could you clarify if the T-X has a separate dedicated GPU like the Zodiacs for gaming and multimedia? Could you also post some hi-res photos of the T-X next to a T3 or T5 so we can get a better feel of the size, especially its thickness, such as a side shot and front shot comparison? Lastly, how much does it weigh? If it is bulky, then if it were fairly light, it might be acceptable. You also say that you have to "boot-up" the T-X with a splash screen. Is boot up the normal way of turning it on and how long does it take? All other Palms don't require a boot up process. They just turn on. Maybe this is required because it has a microdrive?
RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Gekko @ 4/16/2005 9:14:19 AM # Q

Bob - how snappy/fast is the GUI?


RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
hkklife @ 4/16/2005 11:50:42 AM # Q
How is battery life--with and without using wi-fi?

Is the hard drive noticably audible when it's being accessed?

Any idea if there is a cradle shipping with the unit?

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions of the teeming PIC masses!

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
ackmondual @ 4/16/2005 1:33:05 PM # Q
50% thicker than a T3 ain't that bad. And for the record, he didn't say he would answer any questions :p
RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
jfme @ 4/16/2005 2:02:40 PM # Q
50% thicker than the T3 = 1 inch

mmmm....

I guess the "pocket test" will be my main buying decision factor.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
E Ben G @ 4/16/2005 2:24:06 PM # Q
I'm new here and don't recognize 'Bobliert'...is this legit?

Ever heard of an NDA? Suckers.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/16/2005 2:28:57 PM # Q
If you knew how to search, most of your questions would already be answered. You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!


The backlash here will be unprecedented (at least since the T5)...

DeepVoice


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Bobliert @ 4/16/2005 3:17:11 PM # Q
sorry folks, - it's not my gadget at work and with non-disclosure agreements the guys won't let the thing out of their sight. I've spent 5 minutes with it.

It's a test model, so it's got bugs. The reason I 'booted-up' is simply because of a reset while trying to connect to Wi-fi. The gui and os are identical to T5.
This particular unit is slow, painfully slow. I've not used a microdrive, but I'm sure it should be faster than this. Contacts took took 5 seconds to open. While it's thinking, there's just a white screen with small activity bars flashing on the right side of the screen, just above where the virtual graffit would appear. It's not going to be like that in the final product, so it's probably not fair to give it a negative report.
I wonder why it's a microdrive and not flash.


DeepBob in deep doodoo
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/16/2005 3:41:56 PM # Q
sorry folks, - it's not my gadget at work and with non-disclosure agreements the guys won't let the thing out of their sight. I've spent 5 minutes with it.

It's a test model, so it's got bugs. The reason I 'booted-up' is simply because of a reset while trying to connect to Wi-fi. The gui and os are identical to T5.
This particular unit is slow, painfully slow. I've not used a microdrive, but I'm sure it should be faster than this. Contacts took took 5 seconds to open. While it's thinking, there's just a white screen with small activity bars flashing on the right side of the screen, just above where the virtual graffit would appear. It's not going to be like that in the final product, so it's probably not fair to give it a negative report.
I wonder why it's a microdrive and not flash.

You've already said too much. Silence, infidel!

Try this: Access Datebook and write a new entry, then access MP3, then try to access Datebook again. BAM! It's sad when Palm can't even get the INCLUDED APPS working right. And yes, you are right: it's as slow as molasses in January - even slower than a CF Microdrive in a PPC device. I wish I had my copy of VFSMark on me last week.

As I've said before, a big helping (128 - 256 MB) of REAL RAM (TM) and a CompactFlash slot is a he11 of a lot more practical than any arcane Rube Goldberg-style architecture Palm can come up with. The REAL RAM + CF solution costs more up front (around $25 - 50 extra), but the benefits in terms of avoiding returns, proving Palm can still compete and reversing Palm's tailspin would more than make up for this.

I can't wait to see the rabid frothing that will spew from Mike Cane's maw next month. Cur Cane will then prove he's clueless by scraping together the funds for a used T3 which will promptly flake out on him, driving him back to the clutches of his RetroPalm (TM) CLIE S320 - the PDA that keeps going and going and going...

Here's a tip, Mike: BUY A TH55! Don't be a victim again. Empower yourself.

TVoR - Tomorrow's ReverseSpin Technology... Today



------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
lifeaddict @ 4/16/2005 4:05:02 PM # Q
"Contacts took 5 seconds to open"... "slow, painfully slow"... Supposedly, we are a month away from release... and it's not going to be that way in the final product? Jeesh! This sounds ominous... I will wait and see, as I really don't want to go the PPC route... but this is not sounding promising...

I also would like to know why they chose microdrive over flash... pure economics? other reasons?

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Gekko @ 4/16/2005 4:30:40 PM # Q

"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."

Never underestimate PLMO/PSRC.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrain
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/16/2005 4:34:49 PM # Q
I also would like to know why they chose microdrive over flash... pure economics? other reasons?

It all boils down to poor product planning. When beancounters make crucial design desicions, product suffers. This lack of attention to detail has hurt Palm - big time - over the past 4 years. The sad part is that if you factor in support costs, returns, lost sales, etc., it really doesn't cost that much more to sell better designs.

I know several people that will never give up their Palm Vx because they know Palm doesn't offer anything of similar quality these days. Palm has no one to blame for this but itself.



------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
joad @ 4/16/2005 5:16:50 PM # Q
Palm probably would have sold me every upgrade to the present line I'm using (Treo) if each version was indeed "better" (TM) than the one I have. I'm no Steve Forbes, but after years of relying on Palms to support more and more of my life I WILL find the money to upgrade - IF the improvement is there.

This TungX is coming out at the MSRP of the Tungsten C, and for all it's shortcomings (I hate the button layout, myself) it probably can be considered a "better" (TM) handheld than the TC and some other high-end PalmOne devices. That is, if the build quality is there. A BIG "IF".

On VOR's point, PalmOne probably lost 20-30% of possible "upgrade" sales on the Treo 650 simply because they cheaped out on RAM and made it unusable for many Treo 600 users without major discarding of long-used programs requiring RAM. I know many, many people who wanted the 650, but either went for the 600 or just bought a bluetooth phone because of the RAM restraints on the Treo 650.

The promised firmware (alleged) "fix" for the NVFS problem of the 650 was released nearly 5 months later (thusfar only for Sprint), and most people expect a new Treo no later than a few months from now anyway (hopefully sooner now that it's all PalmOne).... Hence, 20-30% lost upgrade and new user sales and serious damage to PalmOne reputation because they shipped a buggy untested high-end device with far less memory than common sense would dictate. Save $5.00 on internal RAM, lose sale on $600.00-700.00 device.

I guess the Tungsten X will be a litimus test of sorts to see how well PalmOne is utilizing the feedback loop of their users. From the spec's it would be hard to complain about much except for the size, battery, and button layout.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
lifeaddict @ 4/16/2005 5:43:51 PM # Q
"I know several people that will never give up their Palm Vx" --- I am one of them. I have held on to my Palm V anticipating with each new product release that Palm One would finally get back on track... deliver a technically superior, high quality product, with a good warranty and quality support. However, with each new product the disappointment increases.

"Palm probably would have sold me every upgrade to the present line I'm using (Treo) if each version was indeed "better" (TM) than the one I have. I'm no Steve Forbes, but after years of relying on Palms to support more and more of my life I WILL find the money to upgrade - IF the improvement is there." --- Again I agree wholeheartedly.

"I guess the Tungsten X will be a litimus test of sorts to see how well PalmOne is utilizing the feedback loop of their users. From the spec's it would be hard to complain about much except for the size, battery, and button layout." --- You are right, from the specs I cannot complain, however, it is the compromises Palm makes in implementation on the front end and the lousy warranty and customer support on the back end that inevitably sabotages every good idea they have had in the last 4 years.

And I am at a crossroads. I can procrastinate no longer on waiting for Palm to deliver a quality product as My Palm V died two days ago. I am willing to wait one more month but if the T-X/Life Drive is another dud, that's it -- I am done.



Woah, wait a second...
Masamune @ 4/16/2005 6:08:49 PM # Q
Before we all start slowly roasting the T-X over hot coals and return to the "PalmOne is a crock of ****, PalmOne is doomed and PalmSource will vanish overnight" way of thinking (which by the way, I AM SICK TO DEATH OF HEARING), I'd like to point out two things:

1) The model that Bobwhateverhisnameis is a test model. Of course it's going to have bugs in it.

2) The damn thing's still several months away from being released - that's three more months of quality testing and three more months to work on OS, drivers and other flaws.

I know all this will get me labelled as a "Palm Apologist" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) and a naive fool, but slating something that you personally haven't used or have even seen reviews of yet is just blatant pessimism.

If its users are going to prematurely bury the OS and its carrying devices, then no wonder people are saying its doomed.

(ends rant)

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
lifeaddict @ 4/16/2005 6:11:03 PM # Q
By the way, does anyone have any idea where Palm gets their user feedback from? do they ever visit these forums? or do they even bother to seek any?

Why people are pessimistic about T-X
Surur @ 4/16/2005 6:22:38 PM # Q
Masamune said
that's three more months of quality testing and three more months to work on OS, drivers and other flaws.

I know all this will get me labelled as a "Palm Apologist" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.0?stage=1&word=apologist ) and a naive fool, but slating something that you personally haven't used or have even seen reviews of yet is just blatant pessimism.

Maybe its years of experience of Palm releasing untested defective devices e.g. most recently the memory configuration of the Treo 650 and T5 which are making people pessimists (or even realists)

Surur


RE: Woah, wait a second...
lifeaddict @ 4/16/2005 6:26:19 PM # Q
>>> "The damn thing's still several months away from being released"

--- Most other sources seem to indicate this device will be released on or around May 20... do you know something they don't?

>>> "but slating something that you personally haven't used or have even seen reviews of yet is just blatant pessimism"

--- You are right it is blatant pessimism, but unfortunately pessimism based on watching Palm flounder over the last few years. There would be far less complaints if Palm only did 3 things:

1. Deliver a QUALITY product
2. Cover it with a good warranty
3. Back it up with top notch customer service

It would be nice if the product also happened to be technically superior.

It is the OS and the 3rd party apps that retains users. Palm counts on that and skates by on the loyalty of their users. It's because they have no competition that they get away with it. If Dell provided a Palm based device like an Axim 50 that ran Palm OS or Tapwave delivered a Palm OS based device I would go that route in a minute.

(stepping down from my soap box)

Clarify -- "Tapwave delivered a Palm OS based device"
lifeaddict @ 4/16/2005 6:47:07 PM # Q
Just to head off the comments I foresee arising from my previous post about Tapwave...

I should have said... if Tapwave delivered a successor to the Zodiac that contained the best of their previous offering with a design and features that takes advantage of newer technologies in a form factor more intended for business users...



RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
E Ben G @ 4/16/2005 7:05:27 PM # Q
"While it's thinking, there's just a white screen with small activity bars flashing on the right side of the screen, just above where the virtual graffit would appear. It's not going to be like that in the final product, so it's probably not fair to give it a negative report."" - Bobliert

Crap - if this thing is so slow that they've put in progress bars to run while the PIM functions open, we're screwed. The only place I want to see a progress bar on my Palm is on a reset.

He said it won't be like that in the final product, does that mean no waiting/watching progress bars or just that it won't be so slow?


RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
hkklife @ 4/16/2005 11:13:52 PM # Q
Voice;

Have you seen/used a T|X firsthand or just know someone from "within" who is intimately familar with the product's shortcomings?

Can it be hacked (ie opened up, warranty voided and all) and that miserable microdrive replaced with a nice Ultra II CF 2gb card or something?



RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/17/2005 12:24:25 AM # Q
I saw an unlabelled Palm (I was told it would be called the Tungsten 7) in pretty much the same form factor as what's been posted around the net. It was in a case (Enfora?) and looked a little beaten up. It was crash-happy (had some odd crashing with just the included apps!) and was slow switching between apps. The delay reminded me of the delay you got with Launcher III (or was it LauncherX?) set to refresh apps when changing tabs. I had a grand total of two or three minutes with this and the new Tungsten E2 that everyone already knew about from the leaked photos from a few months back. (Preemptive special note to my pal, Mike Cane: Yes, you're right. I actually have never seen a Palm prototype in my life. I don't have an English localized VZ90, a European TH55 or a UX50. And you, Dear Mikey, came up with the "Rube Goldberg RAM" concept of NVRAM. In fact, I've never even used a PDA before. Only you, Manic Mike, can be trusted to "tell it like it is".)

To survive, PDAs need to get as small, light, and slick as possible. The UX50 was where the market needed to go. And it didn't. Who knows - maybe I'm completely wrong and Palm's product planners have pulled off another Palm V. I doubt it, but Palm seems to think that the seemingly obvious solutions we here at PIC have been proposing for years are impossible to implement.

I'll stand by my statement, though I hope Palm will prove me wrong: A CF card + 256 MB of REAL RAM is a much more practical solution for users. I also feel that a $10 copy of BackupMan and a $10 SD card would serve users a lot better than crap NVRAM. It's pathetic that Handera included a backup app in its ROM way back in 1999, yet Palm hasn't yet done so as of April, 2005. Handera's Mike Waldron coded BackupMan, and if Palm's leadership had a clue they would have either hired him a long time ago or at least licensed his slick collection of apps and folded them into the ROM.

Oh well...


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

Proposed Theories On Why UX50 Failed
viqsi @ 4/17/2005 9:09:24 AM # Q
First, the fairly objective ones:
* "Too much too early all at once" - the cautionary tale Sir Tim Berners-Lee took away from NeXT's failure.
* Several design details missing or awkward - jog dial placement, inability to switch portrait/landscape view, screen made to look small by all the plastic around it, the really poor stylus, et cetera. This would not have helped the user experience.
* Extremely high price.

And then, the potentially not-so objective ones:
* The sort of people who want these things are a tiny fringe market; you can't make a profit off them on something this big. (This is of course my opinion, but I think it backed up by the remarkable sales records of the Zire and the Tungsten E)
* Two words: Memory Stick. (I *hate* lock-in strategies. And I know I'm not alone on that one. I merely am unable to verify the degree to which I am not alone here.)

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
viqsi @ 4/17/2005 9:29:54 AM # Q
(seperate post for seperate topic, yay!)

NVFS does not replace regular backups; it just helps for forgetful folks (who are one of the types that need PDAs in the first place! :) ).
I offer my mother as a case study. She's needed something along these lines for a while now.

Mom's needs are as follows:
* she uses Outlook extensively and so needs to sync with that
* her eyesight is bad so she needs a reasonably high resolution screen (i.e. better than the Palm IIIc, which is the best we had the last time we tried to get her set up)
* she's very forgetful, and often forgets to charge things, especially PDA and cellphone (this is where NVFS comes in handy - see below).

Pocket PC handles the first two issues just fine, and, in fact, she's been attempting to use a Jornada 540 for a while now to this end. However, when she forgets to charge it for a long while, the memory is wiped. If you've owned a Pocket PC that you've ever had to totally wipe before, you may be able to attest to the massive amount of pain involved in getting ActiveSync to reinstall all the old data on your PPC. Between myself and my father Mom's got two pretty capable geeks who've been working on this one, and neither of us can get it to work smoothly. She has to create a new device profile every time. It's enough of a pain that she nowadays just doesn't use it.

Dad and I have had a vested interest, therefore, in getting her on a Palm she can use for a while now. For one, restoring from backup is significantly easier, and for another, everyone else in the family is on PalmOS (I have a Zire 72, he's got a Tungsten E, my brother and sister each have m105s, and my aunt has a IIIe). So we're both looking at NVFS as a potential lifesaver. Outlook sync is not a problem, especially if we go the extra mile and invest in Beyond Contacts, and she's already said she finds the screens on Dad's T|E and my Z72 to be just fine (so long as she doesn't look at the headache-inducing tiny fonts I use ;) ).

Of course, we're not going to try to sell this to her again until after she's recovered from Tax Time (she's an Enrolled Agent), finished the kitchen remodeling, gotten past my brother's wedding at the end of the month, et cetera... ;) but things are finally looking up for getting Mom something she can use, and that's just massively awesome.

Automatic backup negates non-volatile ram
Surur @ 4/17/2005 10:23:12 AM # Q

You call yourself a geek, and you cant solve your mother's simple problem by buying her $19.99's worth of software? You would rather confuse her by moving her to a completely different platform at 10-20 x the price.

Maybe you are the lower quality Palm kind of geek, who needs things very simple, in a Zen kind of way.

Try Sprite Backup. http://www.spritesoftware.com/products/sprite_backup.html

* Fully automated Scheduled Backup
* Automatic backup on low battery
* Backup and Restore selected files, directories and databases
* Fast Backup operation
* Unparalleled reliability
* Create self-extracting backup files
* Simple, effective user interface
* Password Protection and Compression
* Select files, folders and file types to exclude from all backups
* Set Sprite Backup to only use a specific amount of storage space for backup files
* Safely restore across ROM upgrades or to different models of device

Not that I dont think non-volatile RAM is a bad idea, Pa1m0ne's implementation just sucks. A much better version would be RAM for RAM, and non-volatile memory for the file system and user file and device configuration. That way a flat battery would just result in a soft-reset vs a hard reset. MS's Magneto (to be released May 2005) is also going the non-volatile ram route. I just hope they do it better.

Surur

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
mikecane @ 4/17/2005 10:31:39 AM # Q
>>>The UX50 was where the market needed to go. And it didn't.

Thank God!!!

RE: Automatic backup negates non-volatile ram
viqsi @ 4/17/2005 12:20:03 PM # Q
Two points:
1) On the platform move:
The confusing switch already happened. We went to PPC because at the time it was the only one with screen resolutions above 160x160. Mom originally started on a Palm IIIx. There've been several serious issues with that switch, not the least of which is the infamous alarm issue with PPC in which alarms don't go off at the proper times and so don't serve as actual reminders (have they fixed that yet, btw? I'm kind of out of touch on PPC).

And before you point out issues with swapping back - she hasn't used it in well over a year due to these issue, so it's unlikely that'll be a problem. (The last time she tried it again was in something like November 2003. She's just been carting her laptop everywhere in the meantime.)

2) On backups:
My father has attempted this in the past, and has invested in CF cards (which we do not use anywhere else, by the way; we made the tactical error of investing initially in SmartMedia) to assist. It hasn't worked out very well; I understand this is largely because of required restore times, but for full details I would have to refer you to Dad.

I should point for the record that this isn't a *bad* solution; I'm just as forgetful as she is on these things and this sort of solution works fine for me (I've been using Red Feline Backup and an alarm reminder every weekend). It just doesn't work for her.

I thank you for taking an interest in my mother's case, though. :)

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Gekko @ 4/17/2005 1:04:50 PM # Q

the NVFS memory retention feature with power loss is a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY! If your device BREAKS or is LOST/STOLEN or God forbid needs a ZERO-OUT RESET due to a BAD CRASH - YOU ARE SCREWED AND WILL LOSE ALL OF YOUR DATA ANYWAY!

the bottom line is that any advantages (if you can find any) of NVFS are quickly negated by the bugginess, crash-prone, hard-reset-data-loss, shiitty backward app compatibility, and SLOW data access/GUI operation of palmone's implemenation.

I will not buy this T/X if it has NVFS anything like the T5. bugginess, crash-prone, hard-reset-data-loss, shiitty backward app compatibility, and SLOW data access/GUI operation is a dealbreaker for me.


RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
viqsi @ 4/17/2005 3:13:33 PM # Q
Quoth the Gekko: "the NVFS memory retention feature with power loss is a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY! If your device BREAKS or is LOST/STOLEN or God forbid needs a ZERO-OUT RESET due to a BAD CRASH - YOU ARE SCREWED AND WILL LOSE ALL OF YOUR DATA ANYWAY!"

Of course it's not a substitute for keeping regular backups. But backups are not a substitute for power loss issues either. They are two different systems that serve two different purposes. The sole purpose of NVFS is to guard against low battery. That's all. Palm has, to the best of my knowledge, never touted it as anything more than this, so why are you dismissing claims that were never made?

I'm not saying it's the end-all-be-all, and it's probably not necessarily for everybody, but it's certainly what we (my family) have been waiting for.

Surur: STOP posting photos to Palminfocenter
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/17/2005 4:49:16 PM # Q
In case you're too slow to realize, the site is not set up to handle anything other than text. Yes, everyone is impressed with your hAxx0r $k1LL$, but give it a rest.

If you have a photo to show, just post a link to it using TinyURL.com like everyone else.


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Gekko @ 4/17/2005 5:34:05 PM # Q

Voice Boy - before you criticize anyone else - remove your 1/4 page signature - it's tired, stupid, silly, not funny, and childish. Enough already. Has Circus City cut back your hours?



Pictures
Surur @ 4/17/2005 5:34:33 PM # Q

I find pictures quite illustrative. I guess it interferes with the blank simplicity of the site however. I guess its for the good however. Imagine if we had to look at ipoo every time Gekko posted.

I'll cut down, but won't promise not to post ANY pictures if they are the perfect way to demonstrate something. Thanks for acknowledging my 1337 hax0rz skillz. It means a lot ;-)

Surur

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
E Ben G @ 4/17/2005 7:03:21 PM # Q
I actually like the pictures. But please downsize them so that they aren't wider than 'normal' monitor resolution.

Not all of us have giant screens, and it's a real pain in the a** to have to scroll right and left to read the posts.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Surur @ 4/17/2005 8:14:01 PM # Q
E Ben G

Thank you for the support. The wide screen thing was an accident. It was really suppose to re-arrange in a collumn. There is no preview or editing you know. Kind of reminds me of slashdot. I will not let that happen again.

Surur

viqsi: the UX50 didn't fail. It was Sony's biggest success.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/17/2005 8:30:33 PM # Q
First, the fairly objective ones:
* "Too much too early all at once" - the cautionary tale Sir Tim Berners-Lee took away from NeXT's failure.
* Several design details missing or awkward - jog dial placement, inability to switch portrait/landscape view, screen made to look small by all the plastic around it, the really poor stylus, et cetera. This would not have helped the user experience.
* Extremely high price.

And then, the potentially not-so objective ones:
* The sort of people who want these things are a tiny fringe market; you can't make a profit off them on something this big. (This is of course my opinion, but I think it backed up by the remarkable sales records of the Zire and the Tungsten E)
* Two words: Memory Stick. (I *hate* lock-in strategies. And I know I'm not alone on that one. I merely am unable to verify the degree to which I am not alone here.)

viqsi, posts like yours always amuse me. The UX50 was actually a resounding success and the features it brought to the table could have formed the basis of PDAs for years to come had Sony not pulled the plug. (Sony left PDAs for financial reasons that had nothing to do with CLIE.)

To answer your specific points:

"Too much too early all at once". Absurd. The UX50 was an expensive, cutting edge, flagship model that was also a design exercise. I doubt many UX50 purchasers were newbie PDA users - most people don't drop $500 - $600 on a PDA unless they know what they're doing. And anyone spending that kind of money rightfully expect the BEST in terms of design, features and build quality. Palm does not seem to understand that you can't charge steak prices and serve hamburger. The UX50 is best considered "caviar for the general".

In four years, Sony introduced over 30 different PDA models, going from the S300 to the VZ90. I recently wrote an article summarizing the CLIE models and I was shocked when I totalled up how many models were produced in that time. An incredible run, but NONE of their models was perfect. Sony's CLIEs were all design exercises - experiments with UI, software + hardware form factors. Each model was flawed, but most introduced at least one memorable feature to PDA users. Over time the best ideas could be retained, eventually resulting in the "perfect" PDA. Sony frustrated users by often DROPPING good design features in favor of less intuitive ideas. But at least they kept experimenting. Ironically, Sony pulled the plug just as they were on the verge of reaching PDA nirvana. The UX50 TH55, and VZ90 were minor updates away from this goal and their 2005 replacements would have been amazing.

Yes, Sony messed up by butchering the jogdial on the UX50. Ironic, since so many of their early PDAs perfected the jogdial.

Portrait/landscape switching is not very important on the UX50, as most people that own one will tell you. Do you often want to switch your PC monitor to portrait orientation? No? Neither do UX50 users. A third party app has been created that allows rotation, but now that most good apps support UX50 landscape mode, the point is moot for most people. Early adopters got hooked on landscape with CodeDiver, and now not many miss portrait mode.

Yes, the screen was around 1/2 - 1 inch too small and a bit too dim in some lighting situations to be ideal. But the long anticipated OLED screen upgrade to the UX50 would have solved this problem in 2005 and improved battery life (the other major UX50 flaw) at the same time.

The Sony Sytle Toothpick Stylus (TM) - SSTS - is a non-issue since with the slick integrated thumbboard, no stylus is needed to enter text. Tapping with a finger quickly takes care of the few remaining situations where pointer input is needed. People who feel the need to use a stylus all the time tend to buy much bigger stylus pens anyway and would never be satisfied with an integrated stylus.

The UX50 market was indeed a niche market: power users with a bit of disposeable income. But this niche is an influential group of customers that helps dictate the PDA purchases of many others. How many satisfied UX50 owners do you think turned around and recommended the purchase of less expensive CLIEs to their friends, colleagues, employees, etc? A lot. High quality leads to word of mouth sales, leading to sustained market share. We are now seeing the REVERSE with Palm, with many long time Palm users both shunning and angrily badmouthing the brand.

Regarding the UX50 price: in this case, you get what you pay for. There's a reason why these things are in high demand and commanding premium prices on eBay. The UX50 will be remembered as the high point in PalmOS PDA design and will be a collector's item in years to come. It was a "halo" item that focused a lot of attention on the entire CLIE lineup. Honda doesn't sell a lot of S2000 cars, but that vehicle is invaluable to them for the brand image it promotes, in addition to giving their engineers an opportunity to stretch their legs and push the envelope. Design/engineering lessons learned with that model can then be applied to lesser models in the product range. That's what innovative companies do. Palm's failure to innovate (e.g. micro lap/tablet/small cellphone form factors, dual expansion, integrated dual Bluetooth/Wi-Fi, OLED screens, VGA screens, native desktop file handling, improved file system, improved battery life, improved digital camera/camcorder, voice recorder, improved web browser, VoIP support, USB host ability, secure "push" email, built in backup utility, improved security, etc.) has resulted in Palm now being dead in the water, engineless, rudderless and about to be plundered by the Microsoft Marauders. Greed and laziness by Palm's executives have left the company helpless and relying on gimmicks (rather than solid design) to sell their hardware. And with Palm's increasing Quality Control problems, more and more formerly diehard Palm supporters are losing faith. We b!tch and moan here at PIC + other sites, but Palm seems oblivious to the warning signs.

While it's pointless starting another "Memory Stick is Evil" debate here, I feel that anyone who choses or avoids a product primarily based on memory format is a fool. And like Mr. T says, "I pity the fool!". CompactFlash is VASTLY superior to all other small memory formats because it offers the largest capacity - by far (currently 8 GB!) - great transfer speeds, low prices, a wide selection of manufacturers and a huge range of REAL (not vaporware) peripherals with REAL drivers. PPC users have a significant advantage over PalmOS users on this one. I can't believe HandEra was the only PalmOS licensee to embrace CompactFlash. Even Sony, who obviously has a not-so-hidden agenda in promoting Memory Stick accepts that CompactFlash is a better format and included it out of necessity in a few PDAs like the VZ90. After CF, choice of memory type is like Coke vs. Pepsi. SD, Memory Stick, xD, etc. all work pretty much the same, differing mainly in Price-Per-Megabyte (PPM). Memory format should be one of the least important factors influencing someone's choice of PDA. Quality, reliability, connectivity, screen, expandability, software, and features (like voice recorder, digital camere/camcorder, etc.) should be the main priorities.

TVoR


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: the UX50 didn't fail. It was Sony's biggest success.
viqsi @ 4/18/2005 1:14:48 AM # Q
I will happily concede the idea of the UX50 being a success if you can show me:
1) sales figures as they compare to the Zire and T|E, and
2) how much Sony ultimately made from them.

I'm not sure if the second is possible without proprietary information, but efforts would be appreciated. Everything I've seen (which is admittedly minimal) indicates that the UX50 did not do well in sales.

As to what "should" be people's priorities - while nice in theory, that is not your decision to make. Other people make those decisions themselves, and no matter how boneheaded you or I may think they are, one has to target those markets. Sony did pretty well at targeting geeks, but they seemed to just forget Regular Users after a while. The last models I can recall offhand for those folks were the TJ-25 and TJ-35, and even with the latter's having WiFi, the T|E mopped the floor with them both.

I feel that people "should" appreciate the trackpoint on laptops. It makes it quicker to move the cursor if you're a touch typist. However, the only laptop maker that buys into this anymore is IBM. That doesn't necessarily mean that IBM's the only laptop maker that knows what they're doing; it just means I'm picky. :)

On the niche market: I'm glad you at least acknowledge this ;). However, if I may be so bold, I would suggest the following two counterpoints: 1) a lot of "power users" are not all that good at seling people on things (no offense to anyone here!), and 2) a person in the market for a PDA is almost certainly more likely to take the advice of a "fellow technophobe" over "the tech geek". :) Not that geek reccomendations don't count at all; I just don't think they count for as much as you seem to imply.

I brought up portrait/landscape and the stylus largely because then it could have been effectively used as a tablet when desired. As such, it was rather cumbersome (this conclusion based on product reviews, and my own playing around with it on storefront displays). Also, Memory Stick got brought up only because I was uncertain whether or not folks had noticed that. Admittedly, that's a bit cynical of me, but, well, sometimes the frustration leaks through. :)

And finally, on "innovation" - I think it's just as innovative if you can take a select few features that get people interested, and combine them in just the right way to entice their interest, without throwing on extra doohickies to make it look more glamorous. That is the lesson that I believe Sony never truly learned. Fortunately for them, they're a big company and can afford to screw up like that. (Palm is just slow figuring out that the latest combo doesn't work anymore from time to time - note how their sucesses/failures come in waves. But that's another debate.)

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Surur @ 4/18/2005 3:17:06 AM # Q

Annoyingly large size-ways scrolling pictures resized.

Surur

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
mikecane @ 4/18/2005 9:37:08 AM # Q
>>>The Sony Sytle Toothpick Stylus (TM) - SSTS - is a non-issue since with the slick integrated thumbboard, no stylus is needed to enter text. Tapping with a finger quickly takes care of the few remaining situations where pointer input is needed. People who feel the need to use a stylus all the time tend to buy much bigger stylus pens anyway and would never be satisfied with an integrated stylus.

There is no end to your absolute cluelessness, is there? How are the kids in Michigan? Two, aren't there? When's the Daddy's Now A Mommy Unveiling? Hey, did ABC pay for this? An EXTREME Extreme Makeover?

As for surur: Every whore likes to show the goods.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
viqsi @ 4/18/2005 11:44:26 AM # Q
Quoth the mikecane: "When's the Daddy's Now A Mommy Unveiling?"

Okay, I disagreed with the guy too, but this is uncalled for.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
mikecane @ 4/18/2005 12:19:28 PM # Q
First of all, I wasn't addressing YOU, so butt out. We have a history here.

Second of all, it's none of your business what he's doing to his body.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
viqsi @ 4/18/2005 12:46:44 PM # Q
That's nice that you have a history. I merely object to your being flippant and insulting about a type of situation that a few of my friends have had to go through. It's in very poor taste.

RE: the UX50 didn't fail. It was Sony's biggest success.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/18/2005 1:11:30 PM # Q
I will happily concede the idea of the UX50 being a success if you can show me:
1) sales figures as they compare to the Zire and T|E, and
2) how much Sony ultimately made from them.

I'm not sure if the second is possible without proprietary information, but efforts would be appreciated. Everything I've seen (which is admittedly minimal) indicates that the UX50 did not do well in sales.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6306

The margins on the UX50 were reportedly higher than those of the Zire and TE, but I can't give you exact figures. I believe Palm is getting margins in the 30% range these days (amazing, but primarily because they're using such cheap/shoddy Chinese construction). They usually don't break down margins by model, but in conference calls in the past they've claimed the Zire gross margins were (surprisingly) similar to those of high end Palms. I expect the pathetic T"5" has margins closer to 45% or 50%! Greed is a Good Thing™.

I don't mean to imply the UX50 was Sony's biggest financial success. (Maybe it was, but I don't have those figures. Only a VERY few people can accurately say how much profit each PDA model brought Palm and Sony year by year.) Whatever the profits, the UX50 was Sony's boldest, most visionary DESIGN and in that way its biggest success.

The Zire and TE are cheap, unimaginative commodity items that simply illustrate the degree to which inertia has set in at Palm. They could still have been good models, though, had Palm bothered to improve their shoddy construction. (I wonder how long it will be before someone launches a class action lawsuit over the ever-disintegrating TE...)

Sony did pretty well at targeting geeks, but they seemed to just forget Regular Users after a while. The last models I can recall offhand for those folks were the TJ-25 and TJ-35, and even with the latter's having WiFi, the T|E mopped the floor with them both.

Nonsense. Sony has always provided low or medium level models that offered much better quality and features than similarly priced Palms, starting with the S300/320/360 through models like the SJ33, etc. and eventually ending with the TJ25/27/35/37. At each pricepoint, informed consumers tended to chose CLIEs, while the Joe Sixpacks chose Palms. If you want to see what a difference quality makes, compare a 2 or 3 year old CLIE to a similarly priced Palm of the same vintage. Even easier: try to find a year old TE that still works properly!

On the niche market: I'm glad you at least acknowledge this ;). However, if I may be so bold, I would suggest the following two counterpoints: 1) a lot of "power users" are not all that good at seling people on things (no offense to anyone here!), and 2) a person in the market for a PDA is almost certainly more likely to take the advice of a "fellow technophobe" over "the tech geek". :) Not that geek reccomendations don't count at all; I just don't think they count for as much as you seem to imply.

We'll have to disagree on this. Most of the non-techie people I know that have purchased PDAs spoke to friends/family members that already have PDAs before making their decisions. Purchase decisions in many offices are based on the preferences of the resident "power user" in the IT department.

I brought up portrait/landscape and the stylus largely because then it could have been effectively used as a tablet when desired. As such, it was rather cumbersome (this conclusion based on product reviews, and my own playing around with it on storefront displays).

Playing with a display model for a few minutes doesn't tell you much about a PDA. And I would suggest you take online reviews with a LARGE grain of salt. Most reviewers only spend a very short time with a PDA before rushing out the advice that so many take as the gospel truth. And interestingly, almost no one updates their reviews after spending a few weeks/months with the devices. Even Ryan here at PIC was forced to revise his UX50 rating (from 6 or 7/10 to 9/10!) after it was pointed out what a revolutionary design the UX50 was. Most other reviewers wouldn't have had the honesty to admit their initial assessment was wrong, so the misinformation continues all over the Internet. Again, anyone who actually USES a UX50 all the time probably doesn't give a rat's a$$ about portrait mode. Switching portrait PDAs like the T3 and TH55 to landscape is another issue. Now THAT's something useful to do!

And finally, on "innovation" - I think it's just as innovative if you can take a select few features that get people interested, and combine them in just the right way to entice their interest, without throwing on extra doohickies to make it look more glamorous. That is the lesson that I believe Sony never truly learned.

Bull. There's NOTHING innovative about any recent Palm I can remember. Just a bunch of low budget plastic cases, embarassing peeling paint and cheap, off-the-shelf parts slapped together by Palm's Chinese contract manufacturer. If you think that's innovation, well... I won't burst your bubble.




------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
mikecane @ 4/18/2005 2:03:35 PM # Q
Listen, schmuck, are you autistic? Butt out! I don't account to you nor do I have to explain a fekkin thing to you. Clear now?

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
E Ben G @ 4/18/2005 2:16:23 PM # Q
Nobody thinks you are some kind of tough guy when you get on the internet and call people schmucks, donkey dicks, twats, and autistic.

Grow up.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
alanh @ 4/18/2005 2:33:35 PM # Q
I think tVoR isn't saying that the UX-50 was a commercial success. Rather, it had all the pieces of what many of us thought would have been a fantastic piece of PalmOS hardware. The next revision of it could have gone a long way towards fixing some of its shortcomings. I would still love to see a PalmOne equivalent device: clamshell, keyboard, SD, 480x320, WiFi, and Bluetooth. From my perspective, what the UX-50 lacked were the following:

1. no sync/charge combo cradle (I can't sync with wifi and BT is too slow).
2. smaller screen.
3. weird button layout and lack of enough application buttons.
4. weird memory layout

If palmOne came out with a device that was fixed those areas and was otherwise similar to the UX-50, I would own one right now.

-a

-alan

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Surur @ 4/18/2005 2:36:51 PM # Q

30% profit margins! Wow. With margins such as that, why do people keep saying PDA's are dying? I know that exceeds the margins of desktops, and it must be exceeding the margins of laptops, with all the downward pressure on prices these days.

Surur

Surur: u R 2 1337. 1 ˘ľ u.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/18/2005 2:41:36 PM # Q








.


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
mikecane @ 4/18/2005 2:55:29 PM # Q
>>>donkey dicks

I've never used that term. But with that post, it does indeed fit YOU. EE-aw.

Vor: uR2~~~~

OH MY GOD DOES SHE EVER SHUT UP?! ;)
viqsi @ 4/18/2005 3:11:03 PM # Q
mikecane: Enh. Just evaluating how polite and reasonable people are capable of being. I thank you for your cooperation.

And on to happier things...

alanh: Point taken. :) In light of this...

tVoR: I was paying more attention to financial successes rather than experimental design successes. I certainly agree that in terms of getting everything into one little package, the UX50 was astonishing. However, the point I was attempting to make is, basically, "there's not enough people who really want everything in one package to make it commercially viable". Whether or not that's a realistic point is what I'm hoping to pin down with this little debate. :)

I submit that it *is* a creative effort, and therefore innovative, to find a combination that 1) the market will enthusiastically embrace or 2) gets enthusiastically embraced by folks *outside* the original market. By that score the T|E did really, really well. Whether or not this is a greater or lesser innovation than Sony's design efforts is another debate entirely (and one I suspect we would rapidly agree on :) ).

Oh, and just for the record, I'm primarily a Linux user. Just because I respect mass-appeal designs doesn't mean I always use them. :D (On the other hand, my personal favorite PDA form factor so far remains the Palm m130, and we all know TEH DRAMA that came out with *that* handheld...)

Some more minor points, because I'm a stubborn bitch and have to argue everything:
* Landscape/portrait - ...well, I can think of scenarios in which I would like to be able to use it as a tablet. But then again, I never purchased one. Perhaps this is a side-effect of my not being in the UX50's target market.
* Sony-Style Toothpick Stylus - ditto above.
* Clie build quailty - Can't say on this one, as I've never owned one. I never purchased Clie for two reasons: 1) Memory Stick, and 2) every time I was shopping and played with a display unit (three or four times; likely the former), first it'd be astonishingly slow, and then it'd crash. Literally every time. I guess I live an uncharmed life or something.
* T|E build quality - Two anecdotes. My father's T|E has kept going strong for just over a year now and shows no signs of slowing down. Mine required one warranty replacement literally at the very end of the warranty (I don't recall the precise reason why; I believe the MB died), and then nine months later (this March) died in a fall. (Three feet onto asphalt parking lot - and it was the seventh or eighth such fall in its lifetime. I abused the poor thing.) I guess we live charmed lives or something.

And finally - why am I continuing to debate this? Because I believe that so long as they can continue to create commercially viable designs in this manner, PalmOne's imminent death becomes ever more greatly exaggerated. :)

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
AdamaDBrown @ 4/19/2005 3:06:13 AM # Q
viqsi, FYI, as far as I'm aware the alarm bug was fixed in WM 2003 Second Edition.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
mikecane @ 4/19/2005 9:47:50 AM # Q
>>>Oh, and just for the record, I'm primarily a Linux user.

Did any of the Zaurii ever appeal to you?

Are you looking forward to "Palmix"?

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
viqsi @ 4/19/2005 10:46:15 AM # Q
Did any of the Zaurii ever appeal to you?

Only very briefly, and then only because at the time I was experimenting with mobile data setups. I spent more time staring at the Yopy than I did the Zaurii, anyways; QTopia is cute, but IMHO the UI is t3h suck.

And besides, you can't run Datebk5 on Linux - at least, not without a Palm emulator, which would be really silly. "Look, I use my PDA to emulate another PDA type which I actually use for PIM functions! I'm special!" ;)

Are you looking forward to "Palmix"?

Not particularly because it's Linux-based, no. If I feel the urge to hack on something, I'll do it on my laptop, not my brain. :)


--
Of course, I don't know how interesting any of this really is, but now you've got it in your brain cells so you're stuck with it. --Gary Larson

viqsi: Nice try. As Apu would say: Come Again!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/21/2005 10:36:12 PM # Q
tVoR: I was paying more attention to financial successes rather than experimental design successes. I certainly agree that in terms of getting everything into one little package, the UX50 was astonishing. However, the point I was attempting to make is, basically, "there's not enough people who really want everything in one package to make it commercially viable". Whether or not that's a realistic point is what I'm hoping to pin down with this little debate. :)

I submit that it *is* a creative effort, and therefore innovative, to find a combination that 1) the market will enthusiastically embrace or 2) gets enthusiastically embraced by folks *outside* the original market. By that score the T|E did really, really well. Whether or not this is a greater or lesser innovation than Sony's design efforts is another debate entirely (and one I suspect we would rapidly agree on :) ).

Oh, and just for the record, I'm primarily a Linux user. Just because I respect mass-appeal designs doesn't mean I always use them. :D (On the other hand, my personal favorite PDA form factor so far remains the Palm m130, and we all know TEH DRAMA that came out with *that* handheld...)

Some more minor points, because I'm a stubborn bitch and have to argue everything:
* Landscape/portrait - ...well, I can think of scenarios in which I would like to be able to use it as a tablet. But then again, I never purchased one. Perhaps this is a side-effect of my not being in the UX50's target market.
* Sony-Style Toothpick Stylus - ditto above.
* Clie build quailty - Can't say on this one, as I've never owned one. I never purchased Clie for two reasons: 1) Memory Stick, and 2) every time I was shopping and played with a display unit (three or four times; likely the former), first it'd be astonishingly slow, and then it'd crash. Literally every time. I guess I live an uncharmed life or something.
* T|E build quality - Two anecdotes. My father's T|E has kept going strong for just over a year now and shows no signs of slowing down. Mine required one warranty replacement literally at the very end of the warranty (I don't recall the precise reason why; I believe the MB died), and then nine months later (this March) died in a fall. (Three feet onto asphalt parking lot - and it was the seventh or eighth such fall in its lifetime. I abused the poor thing.) I guess we live charmed lives or something.

And finally - why am I continuing to debate this? Because I believe that so long as they can continue to create commercially viable designs in this manner, PalmOne's imminent death becomes ever more greatly exaggerated. :)

- I don't think anyone here would reasonably expect that a $600 - $700 PDA like the UX50 would sell to the masses like a $200 PDA. But, with economies of scale, the features on something like the UX50 would trickle down to lower price points. I doubt many people would turn down extra features if there was no price penalty. [TVoR: 1, viqsi: 0]

- The Tungsten E is NOT innovative. In fact, it really is not much different than the original Pilot. Don't confuse commoditization with innovation. The Tungsten 5's only "innovation" (mountable NVRAM) is of highly questionable usefulness and wasn't a Palm creation. [TVoR: 2, viqsi: 0]

- If you actually used a UX50 for a few weeks you would find essentially no reason to need/want portrait mode. As I mentioned before, its analogous to needing portrait mode on a desktop monitor. [TVoR: 3, viqsi: 0]

- Re: the Sony-Style Toothpick Stylus™ - it doesn't really matter due to the presence of a thumbboard. And going back to Graffiti is now painful after getting used to the thumbboard. [TVoR: 4, viqsi: 0]

- Re: CLIE build quality: experience with display models that have been hacked up by people like Creepy Cane is not a good way to evaluate quality. Ask people that OWN different PDAs and you'll see. Your story about your TE croaking is typical. I have never met someone with a Treo 600 that didn't have quality control problems. The peeling Zire 72 was a joke. I assume your father has never used his TE. Either that or he got the only good one the factory made last year... [TVoR: 5, viqsi: 0]

- Re Palm's commercial viability: the PDA market is not healthy. Store displays are shrinking to nothing. PPC hardware is making a mockery of Palm's Gimmickware™. Treos are soon going to face stiff competition from Microsoft as it leverages it's email servers to sell Windows Mobile. If Palm barely scratched out a couple million in profit last quarter, how can they expect to make money in future quarters with its stable of uncompetitive, overpriced PDAs? [TVoR: 6, viqsi: 0]

Set: TVoR. viqsi throws in towel, claiming pulled leg muscle.

TVoR


------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
viqsi @ 4/22/2005 9:52:15 AM # Q
- I don't think anyone here would reasonably expect that a $600 - $700 PDA like the UX50 would sell to the masses like a $200 PDA. But, with economies of scale, the features on something like the UX50 would trickle down to lower price points. I doubt many people would turn down extra features if there was no price penalty. [TVoR: 1, viqsi: 0]

- The Tungsten E is NOT innovative. In fact, it really is not much different than the original Pilot. Don't confuse commoditization with innovation. The Tungsten 5's only "innovation" (mountable NVRAM) is of highly questionable usefulness and wasn't a Palm creation. [TVoR: 2, viqsi: 0]

Very well, then; I suppose I'll rephrase my argument as follows:
1) Commoditization isn't necessarily a bad thing, and
2) Updates to old ideas can be useful and successful.

The T|E falls easily into #2 above; it was basically the Pilot formula brought to modern hardware. Obviously this is hardly new and exciting if you're a PDA geek, but based on its sales records I'd say this was something in high demand. (And besides, did the Pilot have a 320x320 color screen? ;) ) So it wasn't New. So what? It did better than the UX50, because while many people needed a "modernized Pilot", only a few folks needed an uberPDA.

I'll happily bet you that the day Palm comes out with something like a T|E with WiFi or similar is the day that WiFi (or WiMax, or whatever) becomes so commonplace in the common consumer market that it can be seamlessly thrown into everyday lives, and not a moment earlier - and it'll probably be highly successful, just like the Pilot and the Palm V and the Zire and the T|E before it. Honestly, right now the only folks regularly using WiFi in a mobile capacity are enthusiasts and business travellers - and for the latter, the T|C is still fairly capable, although due for an update. (Businesses don't upgrade that often, but with WPA transitions going on right now, the T|C really needs to get on the ball there - well, either it or its successor).

A lot of people worry about having such extras that they'll never or almost never use. Even if there is no apparent price penalty, these people will think "I could have had this even *cheaper* if they hadn't thrown in that other garbage, because OBVIOUSLY it must have made this thing cost more." (Regardless of whether or not this is a rational assumption.) And then most of them will look at something priced the same but without those extras, think "Hmm, they must have done better with the basics than those other folks because they're charging the same", and buy it instead.

And apparently there's enough of those types of people to make the Tungsten E a bestseller and the TJ-25 a footnote.

Really, my only major hope for the T|X right now is that it might shut up some of the naysayers here that claim that Palm is dead and can't do anything new. ;)

- If you actually used a UX50 for a few weeks you would find essentially no reason to need/want portrait mode. As I mentioned before, its analogous to needing portrait mode on a desktop monitor. [TVoR: 3, viqsi: 0]

- Re: the Sony-Style Toothpick Stylus™ - it doesn't really matter due to the presence of a thumbboard. And going back to Graffiti is now painful after getting used to the thumbboard. [TVoR: 4, viqsi: 0]

We really ought to just agree to disagree on this one, since we evidently use PDAs differently. I was envisioning using it as basically a tablet most of the time, with the thumboard available whenever I needed to do serious typing on the rare occasions that I actually *need* that kind of functionality and my much-beloved ThinkPad is not immediately to hand. (I don't even bother with a desktop computer anymore. *hug ThinkPad*)

- Re: CLIE build quality: experience with display models that have been hacked up by people like Creepy Cane is not a good way to evaluate quality. Ask people that OWN different PDAs and you'll see. Your story about your TE croaking is typical. I have never met someone with a Treo 600 that didn't have quality control problems. The peeling Zire 72 was a joke. I assume your father has never used his TE. Either that or he got the only good one the factory made last year... [TVoR: 5, viqsi: 0]

I can't speak to display unit quality overall; I don't have security cameras trained on the PDA displays of my local computer stores ;). I do know that in at least one case a hard reset that I decided to perform on the spot did not resolve things; the unit crashed shortly thereafter again. The overall experience, though, said to me "it's easy to casually **** up a Clie", and so I didn't touch it. The only Palm I've had a comparable experience with was the Tungsten T5 (and it didn't actually *crash*, it was just slow).

As to PDA owners... I've met all of two Clie owners (as opposed to dozens of Palm owners and the occasional PPC owner). One of them was complaining that the display was coming loose on his NR-series model (I don't recall specifically which), and the other is using one of the first Clies that ever came out - you know, the ones with a black-and-white 160x160 screen and flipcover.

Oh, and for the record, your assumption is way off the mark. Dad uses his PDA almost more than I do. He was the one who *introduced* me to the original Pilot. (Being raised by geeks can have its advantages ;) ).

- Re Palm's commercial viability: the PDA market is not healthy. Store displays are shrinking to nothing. PPC hardware is making a mockery of Palm's Gimmickware™. Treos are soon going to face stiff competition from Microsoft as it leverages it's email servers to sell Windows Mobile. If Palm barely scratched out a couple million in profit last quarter, how can they expect to make money in future quarters with its stable of uncompetitive, overpriced PDAs? [TVoR: 6, viqsi: 0]

I agree that the PDA market is not healthy. How many PPC manufacturers have dropped out in the last year and a half again?

You can't just look at a list of specs, do a mathematical comparison, and claim doom. You can't look at your own preferences and biases, note that a company isn't appeasing them, and claim doom. So long as they can still commoditize, they can survive - well, at least until the PDA market itself dies, but then we're all screwed and this whole thing becomes moot. :)

Back in the elder days of PDAs, lots of people with lots of money swore up and down that there was no way you could be successful with a PDA unless you threw in X, Y, Z, and Q features, and they all ultimately crashed and burned (despite a few cult followings that cried at the results - the Newton comes to mind). How is this argument any different now?

I maintain that Palm dies only when the PDA market itself dies. (And I don't even think the market would have a chance of being threatened if it weren't for PPC, but that's another wild theory entirely. :) )

Set: TVoR. viqsi throws in towel, claiming pulled leg muscle.

Please do not attempt to declare a debate closed with yourself the winner before the person you're debating with has replied. It's not very friendly, and it rather puts me in mind of a schoolyard oneupsmanship shouting match.

--
Of course, I don't know how interesting any of this really is, but now you've got it in your brain cells so you're stuck with it. --Gary Larson

Pocketpc's killing the PDA market?
Surur @ 4/22/2005 1:48:13 PM # Q
viqsi said
I maintain that Palm dies only when the PDA market itself dies. (And I don't even think the market would have a chance of being threatened if it weren't for PPC, but that's another wild theory entirely. :) )

So you think pocketpc's are killing the PDA market. I would love to hear this theory.

Surur



INNOVATE. Or die.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/22/2005 10:02:53 PM # Q
Very well, then; I suppose I'll rephrase my argument as follows:
1) Commoditization isn't necessarily a bad thing, and
2) Updates to old ideas can be useful and successful.

Commoditization and updates may sometimes be nice, but again, they aren't INNOVATION.

I'll happily bet you that the day Palm comes out with something like a T|E with WiFi or similar is the day that WiFi (or WiMax, or whatever) becomes so commonplace in the common consumer market that it can be seamlessly thrown into everyday lives, and not a moment earlier - and it'll probably be highly successful, just like the Pilot and the Palm V and the Zire and the T|E before it. Honestly, right now the only folks regularly using WiFi in a mobile capacity are enthusiasts and business travellers - and for the latter, the T|C is still fairly capable, although due for an update. (Businesses don't upgrade that often, but with WPA transitions going on right now, the T|C really needs to get on the ball there - well, either it or its successor).

I disagree. If you fall way behind the curve in the technology world, competitors will eat you alive. Palm's failure to provide hardware with advanced (or even current!) technology marks them as an also ran now that they no longer have a significant 3rd party software advantage over PPC.

A lot of people worry about having such extras that they'll never or almost never use. Even if there is no apparent price penalty, these people will think "I could have had this even *cheaper* if they hadn't thrown in that other garbage, because OBVIOUSLY it must have made this thing cost more." (Regardless of whether or not this is a rational assumption.) And then most of them will look at something priced the same but without those extras, think "Hmm, they must have done better with the basics than those other folks because they're charging the same", and buy it instead.

Funny, I've NEVER heard anyone complain about having more features on a PDA. But I hear plenty complaints about missing features. Think about it. Your statement sounds bogus. Admit it.

And apparently there's enough of those types of people to make the Tungsten E a bestseller and the TJ-25 a footnote.

The TE sold because it was widely available, cheap, and had the Palm name on it. Period. A lot of people bought Chevy Cavaliers, Ford Escorts, Chrysler K cars, etc., etc. too. Does that mean those were good or innovative vehicles?

Really, my only major hope for the T|X right now is that it might shut up some of the naysayers here that claim that Palm is dead and can't do anything new. ;)

Don't bet on it. Mark my words.

*hug ThinkPad*

I bought an X40 a few months ago. Great design, but IBM's quality is slipping. I think Fujitsu is now going to be the laptop of choice for people who demand quality goods.

I can't speak to display unit quality overall; I don't have security cameras trained on the PDA displays of my local computer stores ;). I do know that in at least one case a hard reset that I decided to perform on the spot did not resolve things; the unit crashed shortly thereafter again. The overall experience, though, said to me "it's easy to casually **** up a Clie", and so I didn't touch it. The only Palm I've had a comparable experience with was the Tungsten T5 (and it didn't actually *crash*, it was just slow).

Again, your N of 1 experience is not representative.

Oh, and for the record, your assumption is way off the mark. Dad uses his PDA almost more than I do. He was the one who *introduced* me to the original Pilot. (Being raised by geeks can have its advantages ;) ).

Nice to hear about your father being a techie. Maybe he should donate his TE to science so Palm can analyze what they did wrong to create a PDA that actually holds up to use.

I agree that the PDA market is not healthy. How many PPC manufacturers have dropped out in the last year and a half again?

Probably a lot less than the number of Windows Mobile devices announced in a typical month. Momentum is not in Palm's favor.

You can't just look at a list of specs, do a mathematical comparison, and claim doom. You can't look at your own preferences and biases, note that a company isn't appeasing them, and claim doom. So long as they can still commoditize, they can survive - well, at least until the PDA market itself dies, but then we're all screwed and this whole thing becomes moot. :)

No, you claim doom when a company loses millions month after month after month, falls FAR behind its competitors, lacks any clear vision and is run by inbred Apple Dumpling Gang members that are more concerned with plundering the company than they are with turning Palm's fortunes around.

Back in the elder days of PDAs, lots of people with lots of money swore up and down that there was no way you could be successful with a PDA unless you threw in X, Y, Z, and Q features, and they all ultimately crashed and burned (despite a few cult followings that cried at the results - the Newton comes to mind). How is this argument any different now?

It's different because the traditional PDA market is now imploding - not booming. Companies that can't compete whither and die. Call it Law of the Jungle™ or Survival of the Fittest™ - either way, failure to evolve means a quick and certain death.

I maintain that Palm dies only when the PDA market itself dies. (And I don't even think the market would have a chance of being threatened if it weren't for PPC, but that's another wild theory entirely. :) )

Without PPC there would be even less reason for Palm to try to innovate, leading to further stagnation. To tell you the truth, I think it's too late for Palm to survive. Micro laptops/PalmTops running REAL Microsoft Windows on 10 - 14 GB Microdrives and Windows mobile PDAs + smartphones connected wirelessly to MS Exchange is probably where the market will settle in the next two years. Sony's U50/70/750 design updated with a smaller OLED screen, integrated PSION or Sigmarion style keyboard, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, TrackPoint style pointer, magnesium case, 8 hour battery life... That's what will sell easily to Microsoft trusting businesses.

Please do not attempt to declare a debate closed with yourself the winner before the person you're debating with has replied. It's not very friendly, and it rather puts me in mind of a schoolyard oneupsmanship shouting match.

Oh grow up. This IS a shouting match. And I won. Again.




------------------------
Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

Say hello to my little friend...

The Wild Anti-PPC Theory
viqsi @ 4/24/2005 12:27:06 AM # Q
The theory goes something like this:

1) Granted: one User. Said user is a typical PC user who probably works with Outlook.
2) User hears about PDAs and PalmOS and thinks "I gotta get me some of that!"
3) User rejects PalmOS after finding out that there are PDAs out there that Microsoft did the software for, and therefore assumes better compatibility.
4) User buys PPC.
5) User discovers PPC compatibility isn't all it's cracked up to be, and is dissatisfied with other associated shortcomings (crappy calendar, low battery life, etc.)
6) User declares PDAs to be ****, returns PPC, never looks elsewhere.

Note that it is, as stated, a wild theory, and one that I have not really bothered to check, thus my not detailing it previously. If you feel the need to vociferiously disagree, I request that do you do quietly.

And TVoR, you dissapoint me. I thought we had a civil debate going for a while there.

--
Of course, I don't know how interesting any of this really is, but now you've got it in your brain cells so you're stuck with it. --Gary Larson

Wild theory also irrational
Surur @ 4/24/2005 5:44:43 AM # Q

Only one problem with your argument. By default pocketpc's are more compatible with outlook than palm devices. Secondarily these days there is a growing community of people to guide new pocketpc users to getting the most out of their devices. Lastly in the past it used to be much more other way around i.e. some-one buys a Palm (which used to have much larger market share, and still has larger mind share), so by your theory the market is dying because of their poor experience with Palm.

So in short, the PPC market is growing, the Palm one is shrinking, and its not because pocketpc's are turning people of PDA's, but because Pocketpc's are turning people of buying inferior Palms.

This blog by a previous Palm user should be read by all current users who are feeling trapped. http://www.palmfocus.com/ppc01.asp

Surur

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
E Ben G @ 4/24/2005 12:27:46 PM # Q
Is PPC really growing or just shrinking slower than Palm.

PalmOS vs. Windows. Palm has one last chance to win.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/24/2005 2:12:51 PM # Q
The Wild Anti-PPC Theory
viqsi @ 4/24/2005 12:27:06 AM

The theory goes something like this:
[SNIP a really weak "theory"]

viqsi Dearest, I'm truly sorry you feel I've disappointed you, but don't cry foul because you've lost the debate.

I think a lot of people will also fail to see how your previous post makes any sense. Of course some users will find PPC/Windows Mobile doesn't meet their expectations. That's the case with ALL products. But manufacturers don't really care whether people actually USE the goods they buy as long as they keep buying. A sale is a sale. And people still keep buying more and more Windows devices every month, while Palm's market share continues to slip. The Netscape-like trend is clear. Are you old enough to remember Netscape? At this rate, Palm will be unable to sustain itself and will burn through its remaining cash reserves. Remember, the point of businesses is to make PROFITS and unprofitable businesses inevitably die unless you're in a communist society.

Palm needs an iPod or Vx. A smash hit that becomes a cultural icon and brings hundreds of millions into the bank. Small PalmOS cellphones and a PalmOS media player are the two most obvious products that could save the company. But Palm seems incapable of getting these products designed + built. The wasted potential here is what frustrates so many Palm fans. We want to see Palm producing devices that make the Average Joe as excited about PalmOS as the Palm Fanboys/Fangirls are about their PDAs. All the necessary ingredients are already available - it's just a matter of whether or not Palm can come up with the right mix before it's too late. Sony was one device revision away from a Vx-like smash hit. Palm would be wise to "borrow" their designs...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
E Ben G @ 4/24/2005 12:27:46 PM

Is PPC really growing or just shrinking slower than Palm.

Based on the released numbers, Windows is growing ansd PalmOS is shrinking.


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Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
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Say hello to my little friend...

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
svrontis @ 4/24/2005 2:43:35 PM # Q
> By default pocketpc's are more compatible with outlook than palm devices.

That's a misleading statement.

1. p1's devices come with conduits which synchronise data on a palmpilot directly to Outlook.

2. You neglected to mention that WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever devices synchronise to Outlook through ActiveSync. It is so full of bugs that (even if it doesn't hang) you can never be sure whether your data has been synchronised properly. The problems with ActiveSync have been known for a number of years, but M$ shows no inclination to rectify them.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Surur @ 4/24/2005 3:41:06 PM # Q

This is a gross exaggeration. Yes, occasionally you will have problems with Activesync. However a) its not very frequent and b) when you have a problem, Activesync will let you know.

If Activesync was so useless, explain why Nokia and Dataviz felt compelled to license it. From Dataviz's web site:

Exchange ActiveSync can significantly enhance end-user productivity by providing a secure, direct, easily implemented wireless e-mail, calendar and contact synchronization while simultaneously lowering IT costs by eliminating the need for middleware. DataViz is now extending this technology to reach the world's most popular smartphones and wireless handsets via RoadSync - a standardized mobile ActiveSync client for Symbian UIQ, Palm OS, Java, BREW, Symbian Series 60 and 80 platforms. With RoadSync, popular devices such as the Sony Ericsson P900 series, palmOne Treo, Motorola RAZR, Nokia 9300 and others can wirelessly access critical Outlook data, anytime, anywhere. The first editions of RoadSync will be available commercially and to potential licensees in May 2005.

http://www.dataviz.com/solutions/enterprise/roadsync/index.html?redirect=roadsyncinfo

Surur

PalmOne and Activesync
Surur @ 4/24/2005 4:00:13 PM # Q

Even palmone has licensed and implemented activesync on the Treo 650

http://kb.palmone.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBCGI.EXE?New,Kb=PalmSupportKB,ts=Palm_External2001,Case=obj(17681)

Do you synchronize with Palm Desktop? Exchange ActiveSync may NOT be for you
When you choose Exchange ActiveSync to get Outlook email on your smartphone, you'll also be synchronizing your Calendar data wirelessly at the same time. To prevent duplicates, information in your smartphone's Calendar will be deleted. It will be replaced with the Calendar information from the Exchange 2003 server (what you see in your Outlook calendar). Generally, this is the same information as was on your handheld.

However, if you synchronize your smartphone with Palm Desktop instead of Microsoft Outlook, and you choose Exchange ActiveSync, your Calendar data will be replaced with the information from the Exchange 2003 server. There is no way to synchronize only email and not Calendar using Exchange 2003; it's either both, or none. If you use Palm Desktop for your Calendar, we recommend not using Exchange ActiveSync to get your email.

Surur


RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
svrontis @ 4/24/2005 6:36:36 PM # Q
The ActiveSync licensed by those parties is different from the version which resides on the desktop for synchronising to a handheld - although M$ refers to both applications by the same name. (I made the mistake of confusing the two in a post a couple of weeks ago, but I was corrected by someone else.)

Thank you for belatedly acknowledging that there are FUNDAMENTAL problems with the desktop version of ActiveSync, so that synchrnisation with Outlook is tricky (at best) for users of WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever devices.

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Surur @ 4/24/2005 6:50:10 PM # Q
Again, you exaggerate. To synchronise I put the pocketpc in the cradle. Full stop. Not tricky at all.

I've had problems with it in the past, but I still have to miss an appointment because of Activesync difficulties. Of note also is that Activesync 4.0 uses a completely new transport protocol and should address many old problems.

Review of the new OS here: http://dynatech.blogspot.com/2005/03/windows-mobile-2005-review.html

Surur

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
svrontis @ 4/24/2005 7:33:11 PM # Q
I agree that it is not tricky for you to put your device into its cradle.

But if someone can't rely on ActiveSync to do its job, because of the bugs (which have been known for years), how can you say that WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever devices have better synchronisation to Outlook?

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Surur @ 4/24/2005 8:16:13 PM # Q
Simple one word answer categories

Does palm still have only 15, or is it 31 now? Its unlimited in Outlook, and also on pocketpc's, and you can have multiple categories per contact.

Their may be other advantages, but it has been so long ago that I owned a Palm that I really cant recall any more. I understand however that hotsync causes many more duplicated appointments, and buggy conduits can be hell.

Surur

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
svrontis @ 4/24/2005 11:53:28 PM # Q
Palm allows only 15 categories (at least on my TE).

What is the point of having tens or hundreds of categories, if ActiveSync's bugs prevent you from synchronising to Outlook in the first place?

Hotsync buggier than Activesync?
Surur @ 4/25/2005 2:37:58 AM # Q

You dont come across as convincing if you continue to insist Activesync never works for anyone. It works for everyone, and for most people it works very well most of the time. Because the PIM database on the pocketpc better fits the database on the desktop, Activesync is a natural and better choice than hotsync for some-one using Outlook as their primary PIM in any case.

Regarding bugs. Yes, they exist, but so do bugs in hotsync. If fact, looking at the google fight, I wonder if hotsync isn't more buggy.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=activesync+bugs&word2=hotsync+bugs

Surur

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
svrontis @ 4/25/2005 5:22:19 AM # Q
I didn't say ActiveSync never works for anyone.

However, there appear to be bugs with ActiveSync which are so pervasive that it leaves the average user in a dilemma. What it boils down to is a series of questions every user can only ask himself/herself:- How can I rely something which has proved to be so buggy? When the thing just hangs, how do I know which data has been synchronised and which hasn't? Isn't the whole idea of synchronising to the desktop to provide 'insurance' against data loss? If there are problems with synchronisation, what sort of 'insurance' is that? etc

If M$ gets around to fixing the bugs (and that's a big IF given that the issues have gone unremedied for so many years) so that ActiveSync provides consistently realiable synchronisation to the desk top, then you may be able to make a case about synchronisation with Outlook in particular. Or is it, perhaps, that you prefer to ignore inconvenient facts?

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
Surur @ 4/25/2005 8:25:11 AM # Q

You are ignoring the thrust of my argument. I dont deny that Activesync can be buggy, but I insist that it doesn't bother people most of the time, and that Hotsync can be even more buggy.

If Hotsync was completely problem free (and I hope you are not saying that) then your argument regarding unreliability would have a chance. However you would have to be blinkered by OS fanaticisms to claim that.

If you accept that Hotsync can be buggy as well, then it only leaves the choice of which sync software works best with outlook, in which case the simple answer is Activesync.

Surur

RE: Tungsten X LifeDrive
InsGuy @ 4/25/2005 2:35:42 PM # Q
Surur, your post,
"This blog by a previous Palm user should be read by all current users who are feeling trapped. http://www.palmfocus.com/ppc01.asp"

was interesting to read. While I'm not in charge of maintaining a large number of people's pdas, what that guy wrote was VERY close to my experiences since I've changed to the X50v. I first went from the Z2 to the X3, and then shortly thereafter went to the X50v, and haven't felt the need to look back (at current P1 offerings). Also, I've had a PPC pda for over a year, and I have't found Activesync to be buggy at all. On the other hand, I never really found Hotsync to be 'buggy' either. I work nearly my entire time at work on a PC, and I did find that WM2003 (later WM2003SE) as fairly easy for me to adapt to. However, my wife (stay at home mom), has my Z2, and SWEARS by that machine; she prefers palmOS systems over PPC.

I guess that difference in preference is why all cars are not the same color, make, design, etc...



All good things...

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I'll take I'll take 256MB of *REAL* RAM, please.

Gekko @ 4/16/2005 6:39:00 PM # Q

I'll take 256MB of *REAL* RAM over a 4GB HD plus 32MB NVFS anyday!

I'll bring my own storage to the table via SD Cards as needed.

When I get high, I get high on SPEED!



RE: I'll take I'll take 256MB of *REAL* RAM, please.
Gekko @ 4/16/2005 6:44:41 PM # Q

or 64MB NVFS

Happy thoughts...
Masamune @ 4/17/2005 8:14:15 AM # Q
Here's a nice thought: As with the original T series, which saw minor upgrades followed by the T3, maybe the X series will work along similar lines - X2 (128 NVFS (Sorry Gekko, but looks like real RAM's gone for good), slight OS update and other minor tweaks) then X3 (256 NVFS, user replacable microdrive and swappable battery, maybe (and this is pushing it a bit) either OLED (which would seriously help make the device smaller) or VGA).



Happy thoughts.
Masamune @ 4/17/2005 8:19:25 AM # Q
((Apologies for (going mad) with (the brackets))).

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