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Comments on: Palm Warns of a Q2 Loss, Cites Certification Delays

Palm Inc today issued a preliminary Q2 FY2008 results statement after the close of the stock market. In the press release Palm warns its early financial assessment for the current quarter will come in under previous guidance, which will likely result in a loss for the quarter. Full results will be reported on Dec. 18.

Palm says the projected revenue shortfall is primarily due to a delay in shipping an unnamed product they has expected to have certified within the quarter. While we can't get a confirmation, the delay is likely the debut of the Treo 755p on Verizon which has been in rumor and pre-announcement limbo since June.

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Anyone wanna take a crack at what Palm's '08 line will look like?

hkklife @ 12/6/2007 10:20:58 PM # Q
My guesstimated Palm lineup for 2008:

Q1 '08:

-755p (Verizon)

-GSM Garnet Centro (AT&T + numerous carriers worldwide)

Q2 '08:

-Treo 800w (Verizon & Sprint)

-Treo 500(?)quad-band variant for US market (AT&T)


What ELSE is there? Is there gonna be anything past that? At this point it's entirely possible and probably that the Centros are going to be THE final Garnet-based devices.

Although, I wouldn't put it past Palm to release a mildly refreshed Centro 2 later in '08 that puts an emphasis on music & "navigation" by way of having, say, a 4gb internal flash drive for music, a 3.5mm headphone jack and the Google Mobile Maps My Location "fix" in ROM. Y'know, like how they called a fixed T|T or 700p an entirely new model (T2, 755p) with few if any new features.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Anyone wanna take a crack at what Palm's '08 line will look like?
theog @ 12/6/2007 10:51:42 PM # Q
What else? Wow... I mean, aren't you waiting for the new TX? How about a foolio?

Really... you are so negative, can't you see they will fill the gaps in your time line with a new linux OS device in Q2, Q3, and Q4 of 2008! Honestly, I can see all of this happening... ok, I lied... but it sounded good.

Vote for John Kerry... best man for the job.

RE: Anyone wanna take a crack at what Palm's '08 line will look l
Gekko @ 12/6/2007 10:54:58 PM # Q

1. Fooleo II
2. Palm T7 Handheld
3. 8-Track Cassette Player
4. VCR
5. 3.5" Floppy Disk Drive
6. Buggy whip
7. Slate Tablet
8. Cave Painting Kit


RE: Anyone wanna take a crack at what Palm's '08 line will look like?
2xs @ 12/7/2007 3:10:17 AM # Q
but remember, that cave painting kit wont have wifi... no one needs wifi!

Palm Professional -> Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Palm m505 -> Palm TT2 -> Palm TT3 -> Palm TX -> Treo680
RE: Anyone wanna take a crack at what Palm's '08 line will look l
xpan @ 12/7/2007 9:59:10 AM # Q
Gekko, you should be watching you mouth! Palm might indeed think that the cave painting kit is a good idea!



---
"home is where my computer is..."

RE: Anyone wanna take a crack at what Palm's '08 line will look l
Poopie @ 12/7/2007 4:41:01 PM # Q
- Firmware update for Treo 680
- New colors for Centro
- New Centro model with different font on Centro keyboard
- Leather Centro case
- Vista X64 support for Palm Desktop
- Redesign of http://mobile.palm.com
RE: Anyone wanna take a crack at what Palm's '08 line will look l
joad @ 12/10/2007 3:33:55 AM # Q
1) GREEN Treo 755

2) Yet another stupid case that barely works

3) "Special Edition" screen protectors

4) 2-pack spare batteries in special colors

5) New GPS arrangement with Magellan

6) Announcement that next handhelds will come with *Xd* cards, (and then after that Memory Stick...).

7) Stylus PENCILS

8) Tungsten X priced at $99 (free Fooleo with purchase)

9) 17 more bugfixes for Versamail

10) 1 firmware fix for some lucky device

11) and a partridge in a pear tree.............................

|
**Another vote for a >100MB RAM Treo**

Reply to this comment

Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.

craigdts @ 12/6/2007 11:01:23 PM # Q
How many companies report "included higher-than-expected shipments of Palm Centro smartphones" as bad news?

The writing has been on the wall for some time now (remember sagio?).

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
wildmantrader @ 12/6/2007 11:07:46 PM # Q
If all you naysayer’s are so convinced of Palm demise, please short at will.

Fu**k*** lightweights.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
ChiA @ 12/7/2007 5:54:03 AM # Q
Presumably wildmantrader is a Palm shareholder.

It'll explain why twildmantrader is so ratty about the naysayer talk.

Reflecting over the past ten years:

- companies have appeared from nowhere to offer serious, superior competition to Palm's products:
RIM, HTC Samsung. These companies are making more compelling products than Palm itself.

- Palm has lost it's international marketshare in the age of globalization, whilst its competitors have gained international marketshare, I see they're going to be selling Blackberrys (Blackberries?) in Russia now. PalmPilot was the buzzword of the day a decade ago, today it's the Blackberry. Better products were available in international markets and natural selection forced Palm away.

Palm has been kept alive by the US cellular companies; Unfortunately for Palm the US carriers now appear to be moving towards international practices. The carriers have been falling over themselves to profess how open their networks are. Consequence? Those nice handsets the European and Asian consumers have been enjoying will now enter the US more rapidly. Good news for Nokia and the US consumer, bad news for Palm.

Palm has failed to respond to end user demand, a fatal flaw. We are a couple of weeks away from 2008 yet Palm remains the only major smartphone company that doesn't offer a device with integrated wi-fi. It seems Palm's incapable of integrating it into their smartphone line but others are able to put wi-fi into their handhelds, games consoles, cameras, printers etc.

Palm cancelled a major product just a couple of weeks before launch. That is not a sign of a company in good health.


So wildmantrader, you've accused the naysayers of being convinced Palm will wither away.

Let's see if you're the heavyweight you imply you are and demonstrate how Palm will succeed

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
TooMuch @ 12/7/2007 8:53:35 AM # Q
Palm is paying the price for bad decisions related to managing its OS. All the hardware listings are just symptoms of the real illness. If the new OS arrives in early 2009, don't be surprised to see Palm become the "big comeback story of the year in 2009 or 2010!" It certainly wouldn't be the first company to comeback from an antiquated OS to a darling stock story.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
rmhurdman @ 12/7/2007 9:44:22 AM # Q
Don't give wildmantrader too hard a time. If he really is a stockholder, since the day after the Elevation Partners deal closed, he's lost over 31% ($9.59 down to $6.59). I'd be sour, too.

Boy, Elevation Partners have done anything BUT elevate Palm.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
JayC3 @ 12/7/2007 10:06:42 AM # Q
I can't seem to understand why a lot of people seem to compare Apple's history with Palm. There is no guarantee that Palm will turn out the same fate as Apple when they release their new OS. As to what I understand, it was not OS X that saved Apple, but the iPod. The iPod gave them the "halo" effect that reflected to their other products that in turn gave them the advantage in people's mind that if the iPod is good, then the Mac/OS X must be good also. It was the iPod that gave them the cash to keep developing on the Mac and the iPod. I am not sure what "iPod" product Palm has, if they do, they better get it out fast.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
retrospooty @ 12/7/2007 10:21:21 AM # Q
"Palm is paying the price for bad decisions related to managing its OS. All the hardware listings are just symptoms of the real illness. If the new OS arrives in early 2009, don't be surprised to see Palm become the "big comeback story of the year in 2009 or 2010!" It certainly wouldn't be the first company to comeback from an antiquated OS to a darling stock story."

That all sounds good on paper (or digital text as it may be) but you're scenario leaves out a very VERY impotant detail. Palm cannot execute to plan. Lets just for a minute, assume they do and actually release the next OS in 18 months. The next gen WinMobile will be out, the next gen (or 2 gens) of iPhone will be out. Google's open source OS deal will be out. What can Palm do to compete with any of that? To compete with all of that, the next gen Palm OS will have to be better or massively cheaper. Do you really think the braniacs left at Palm can do a better OS than the next gen Microsoft, Google and Apple? Or compete pricewise with the giants?

Now remember that Palm cannot execute to plan, and releases seriously buggy products at first - I would presume that it will take an additional 18 months of development after release to get the next gen OS to be relatively useable enough for the masses to not rip it apart when comparing to competing OS's and devices... By then, what will the competition have out?



RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
mikecane @ 12/7/2007 11:16:35 AM # Q
Palm must have been counting on the Foleo to give them an iPodish halo effect.

Instead of a halo, they got horns.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
nastebu @ 12/7/2007 12:10:10 PM # Q
The iPod didn't save Apple. If you want to give credit to a specific product, it's probably the original iMac. Check out the Wikipedia history, which is very good.

As far as Apple's lessons for Palm, it's something like return to your roots, rely on visionary executives, and take big chances. Ironically, that all sounds like the foleo. :-)

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
TooMuch @ 12/7/2007 5:07:40 PM # Q
"Don't give wildmantrader too hard a time. If he really is a stockholder, since the day after the Elevation Partners deal closed, he's lost over 31% ($9.59 down to $6.59). I'd be sour, too.
Boy, Elevation Partners have done anything BUT elevate Palm."

PALM Inc. paid out $9 per share in dividends on that day too.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
TooMuch @ 12/7/2007 5:12:09 PM # Q
"Palm cannot execute to plan...Google open source will be out..."

You sound like the Mac beaters in 1998 who compared Apple with the insurmountable battle with Microsoft, Sony, etc. Remember, "Apple is dead...they can't deliver on Mac because of their obsolete OS, the Newton, etc."

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/7/2007 5:29:45 PM # Q
PALM is not Apple.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
retrospooty @ 12/7/2007 5:44:03 PM # Q
"You sound like the Mac beaters in 1998 who compared Apple with the insurmountable battle with Microsoft, Sony, etc. Remember, "Apple is dead...they can't deliver on Mac because of their obsolete OS, the Newton, etc.""

Apple and Palm are not the same at all...

Apple, when they were down and out...

1. was a medium-small company
2. had an extremely loyal fanbase (those that were left)
3. had a very talented engineering group.
4. had no leadership (until Jobs came back)
5. had great marketing

Palm now

1. Is a very small company
2. Has a fanbase that is largely turning against them.
3. has a useless engineering group that makes excuses at 10x the rate tehy make innovations of fixes.
4. has no leadership
5. has no marketing

Not to say that they cannot get these things, but it doesnt look likely. There is a whole mentality set up to underachieve at Palm and it will take years and years to get rid of it.... I dont think Palm can last that long IF they started, and they have not started.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
mikecane @ 12/7/2007 8:41:21 PM # Q
>>>You sound like the Mac beaters in 1998 who compared Apple with the insurmountable battle with Microsoft, Sony, etc. Remember, "Apple is dead...they can't deliver on Mac because of their obsolete OS, the Newton, etc."

Fine. If that's the only fekkin way we can get rid of Colligan, email Jobs to buy the damned company!

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
TooMuch @ 12/8/2007 7:16:07 AM # Q
"Apple and Palm are not the same at all...

Apple, when they were down and out...

1. was a medium-small company
2. had an extremely loyal fanbase (those that were left)
3. had a very talented engineering group.
4. had no leadership (until Jobs came back)
5. had great marketing

Palm now

1. Is a very small company
2. Has a fanbase that is largely turning against them.
3. has a useless engineering group that makes excuses at 10x the rate tehy make innovations of fixes.
4. has no leadership
5. has no marketing"

-----------

Yes, Palm is NOT Apple, but you are still missing the point that the issue is OS, OS, OS!!! The success of Palm primarily has always been about the OS. I can't help but laugh at the quoted comparison above as a rebuttal to the statement that Apple was said to be DOOMED in 1998 because (mainly) it had an obsolete OS compared to "Windows" (say it kinda spooky). The comparative list above, though missing the point, doesn't prove anything...
1. Size of company...what? Since when does the current determination that a "small company" disqualify you from future success?
2. Apple had loyal fanbase (those left) vs. Palm fanbase turning against them...Kind of sounds like the same point.
3. Engineering comparison. Overstated. Apple mostly had hard-headed engineers who said "it can't be done that way" to everything that Jobs would demand in the days ahead. Many of them were fired.
4. Leadership comparison. Agreed.
5. Marketing comparison. Greatly overstated.
The future can change for Palm. If you don't believe it, why would you waste your time commenting here? Do you really think that 1/4 billion dollars needed to be wasted on this DOOMED company by EP?
And BTW...Palm's future to hinges on OS.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/8/2007 7:32:15 AM # Q
> ...Do you really think that 1/4 billion dollars needed to be wasted on
> this DOOMED company by EP?...

Having lots of bucks does not make one an investing genius. People make mistakes.

Oh.

Wait.

That's right.

A Rock Star bet on PALM.

Yes, there must be a future there.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
TooMuch @ 12/8/2007 8:47:56 AM # Q
Come on now SV. You know that "rock" is here to stay!

RE: EP Deal may be smarter than I thought
craigdts @ 12/8/2007 9:25:06 AM # Q
I never understood it. It didn't make sense to dump all your cash, especially when you are not making money.

But, I think Palm board and management knew the company is doomed, and they figure that we should go ahead and take the cash. That way when we go bankrupt the banks can foot the bill. Who said palm doesn't care about its shareholders? Oops, that's me.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
retrospooty @ 12/8/2007 9:33:35 AM # Q
"Yes, Palm is NOT Apple, but you are still missing the point that the issue is OS, OS, OS"

Palm has alot bigger issues than just OS. Palm has Engineering engineering engineering as the major problem.

but in the end, you are correct it could possibly be saved several years down the road by totally rebuilding the engineering and management cores from the ground up - not likely, but possible. Palm is still a strong brand and if 2-3 or even more years down the road, if they have some compelling products, people will buy them. Thats a lot of if's though.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/8/2007 10:24:48 AM # Q
Craigdts - I think PALM thought close to those thoughts exactly.

When you have a cash-rich company with no future (*) you can let the cash sustain the company for a long long time, then have it go away.

Or you can TAKE the cash and have it go away somewhat sooner.

Somehow - this looks like a no-brainer to me - and a VERY good suggestion by whomever came up with the idea (**).

====================

(*) PALM itself about a year ago decided the BEST thing they could do for the company was sell it - then spent MONTHS trying to do just that with only ONE taker worth noting - Elevation Partners and their silent equity partner. And even THAT deal was only for about a 10% premium over the then-current price - noise-level for a dynamic-price stock like PALM. And then that private equity partner of EP said "No thanks - nevermind" only a couple days later! (***)

(**) So the 100% takeout deal fell through a couple days after it was offered. At that point SOMEONE came up with the convoluted idea of PALM selling only 25-ish% of itself to EP, but doing it by forming another corporation and MERGING with that corporation, thus allowing a ==tax-free== Return of Capital to be distributed to its shareholders - that's just an a-MAZ-ingly good idea - otherwise the $9 back would have been a taxable dividend for everyone getting it.

(***) This is not conjecture nor opinion - PALM outright said just this in one of their earlier SEC filings on the history behind The Transaction (though they used corporate-speak like "business combination transaction" rather than "sale"...giggle).

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/8/2007 10:26:11 AM # Q
> ...Palm is still a strong brand...

I actually believe that point is very debatable.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
ChiA @ 12/8/2007 3:09:22 PM # Q
I was a close observer of Apple's problems during the mid 90s.

Apple then (and now) unlike Palm, had several billion dollars in cash even during its deepest depths of loss.

The Palm team also seem to lack the drive and hunger to make, as Steve Jobs puts it, "insanely great products". The small incremental improvements to the Treo range is testimony to that.

Palm made the mistake of trying to branch out into a new sector rather than concentrating on making its core smartphones the best of breed.

When Jobs returned to Apple he made sure Apple concentrated and enhanced its core products whilst getting rid of distracting sidelines. Once the core was profitable Apple was once again in a position to explore other avenues such as the iPod.

Palm trying to introduce the Foleo whilst struggling with its average Treo line was like someone trying to add an extension to a house whilst the ground floor was on fire.

The postponement of the Foleo is at least a sign of hope for Palm.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
retrospooty @ 12/8/2007 6:36:59 PM # Q
"> ...Palm is still a strong brand...

I actually believe that point is very debatable."

I dunno about that... 9 out of 10 people I meet still call all HP
s PPC's, WM phones, and any other brand including Palm a "Palm pilot"

I don't think Palm has the brain power, management, or motivation to do anything worthwhile at all, but if at some point years from now someone smarter bought the brand and released a "Palm" branded device with a good feature set I think it would sell.

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
craigdts @ 12/8/2007 9:34:34 PM # Q
"Palm made the mistake of trying to branch out into a new sector rather than concentrating on making its core smartphones the best of breed."

The sad thing about your statement (which proves your point about Palm vs. Apple) is that Palm ACTUALLY thought they were concentrating on their core smartphone market by going from the 650, 700, 755 and Centro. It is truly embarrassing the lack of talent at Palm.



RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/9/2007 7:58:57 AM # Q
W.r.t. the PALM brand being powerful or whatever...

My point was there is a different customer set now - walk-ins to retail phone stores, "surf-ins" to online retail outlets (including carriers), etc. PALM in no way, shape, or form is the dominant player THERE and thus "the name" is, in general, NOT a seller.

Are there (a decreasing number of) legacy-PALM-buyers who still dote on the PALM name?

Yes - sure - of course. There are even a number who still post that the PALM user interface (and experience) is vastly superior to their competitors. Some who haven't even SEEN the competition and what they've already come up with, much less what they are coming up with as we type.

So, I think the thought that the PALM name somehow remains a (significant) selling point is...debatable...

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
rmhurdman @ 12/10/2007 10:31:08 AM # Q
The heavyweights have spoken:

Palm cut to “sell” at UBS

RE: Palm can't compete in the low end phone market.
mikecane @ 12/10/2007 12:31:19 PM # Q
If they fire Colligan it will switch to Must Buy.

Do it, Elevation! Dump him!

Reply to this comment

My favorite comment was...

joeags @ 12/6/2007 11:47:46 PM # Q
the increase in warranty repair expenses. Based on how many people have commented on returning multiple palms in for warranty repair over the past few years, I'm surprised it took this long for those expenses to go up. But for Palm to report this as the first reason for a change in gross margin must mean that they had a large increase in the number of units returned. They talked the previous year of a 1.5% increase in warranty expense, which was because they moved towards smartphones, but this quarter must have been pretty major...

RE: My favorite comment was...
SeldomVisitor @ 12/7/2007 8:45:57 AM # Q
Yeah, that comment was unexpected - we know about the horrendous returns of prior Treos, but noticing it on the books NOW suggests something behind-the-scenes - like sending off Treos to a carrier or something and taking them back BEFORE they got sent off to end-customers or something.

I hope an analyst asks about this particular statement during the earnings call on the 18th since it seems unusual.

RE: My favorite comment was...
rpa @ 12/7/2007 10:18:31 PM # Q
I was surprised by this admission too. If you look at user reviews for the Treo 680 on CNet, the comments are generally very negative so maybe we should not be so surprised. I was ready to buy one until I read their reviews.

rpa
Palm Pilot >> Palm Tungsten E user
RE: My favorite comment was...
craigdts @ 12/8/2007 9:36:25 PM # Q
I read (from an analyst comment) that the warranty returns were for the Centro. Which Palm should be very concerned about.

RE: My favorite comment was...
Surur @ 12/9/2007 6:37:49 AM # Q
I read that comment, and thought the analyst was probably jumping to conclusions. It could very well be 700p users forcing Sprint to give them 755p's. There has been a lot of that going on at TreoCentral.
RE: My favorite comment was...
SeldomVisitor @ 12/9/2007 8:01:50 AM # Q
I think that topic is one that an "analyst" should try to get addressed - we don;t know if warranty costs from "old" Treos are finally showing up, or if a relatively-new Treo never even got out there and was recalled to fix it first, or if a Treo that was just released is breaking at high rate (even though message boards do NOT seem to suggest that).

RE: My favorite comment was...
joad @ 12/10/2007 3:53:18 AM # Q
I've had a couple 755s die already (hardware), so the quality control problems still seem to be present (though MUCH improved over the 600's).

I don't feel too sorry for people pushing Sprint for 755 replacements for the ghastly 700p phones. Palm cheaped out and stuck the PalmOS version on top of a Windows Mobile hardware and they got caught. If I am purchasing a $600.00 phone I expect it to work properly, and for the manufacturer to promptly address manufacturing defects like the inability to stay paired with a headset and other such problems. ONE YEAR WAIT is NOT an appropriately timed Maintenance Release schedule, especially when you are often locked into a 2-year contract with a plan appropriate to that phone.

Hopefully Palm will get stuck with enough huge warranty costs that they design and test their products much better. To this point they've released buggy garbage and counted on getting ANOTHER $650.00 from that same customer who will be forced to buy another phone if they want the bugfixes. Look at the PIC thread on Googlemaps and you can see that presently not much seems to have changed in Palm's support for current devices - they're still playing the "buy the NEXT phone if you want that to work" game. It's getting old.

|
**Another vote for a >100MB RAM Treo**

Reply to this comment

Sputter, stall, die

mikecane @ 12/7/2007 9:50:05 AM # Q
>>>We are pleased with recent improvements in our product delivery engine

Oh, that's the new buzzphrase now, Ed? RESIGN!!

Palm High Muckity-Mucks Jan 2007: Yeah, baby. We're gonna do gangbusters this year. Jeff, that Foleo is gonna save Palm's ass.

December 2007: Oh sh*t, we're doomed!

Colligan: RESIGN!

NOW!

RE: Sputter, stall, die
freakout @ 12/11/2007 3:37:37 AM # Q
>>>We are pleased with recent improvements in our product delivery engine

...yet they're blaming failure to deliver a key product for the results. Guess that engine still needs some fine-tuning.


RE: Sputter, stall, die
SeldomVisitor @ 12/11/2007 7:03:56 AM # Q
Giggle.

============

I'm wondering if ALL the reasons given are related.

(1) Failure to ship a product due to...

(2) A (silent pre-shipped) "recall" of that product needing high "warranty" costs to fix it causing...

(3) The Centro to be a much higher percentage of the "shipped product mix" thus causing margins to be depressed.

Note that this POV is somewhat more negative than the spin of the PR-fluff out of PALM. It attributes the higher Centro impact NOT to unexpectedly large shipments of Centros but due to unexpectedly large percent of Centro impact on margins (i.e., if:

M = f(A*T + B*C)

then if A falls, (B*C) has relatively larger impact with NO increase in B).

Reply to this comment

'Strategic Platform'

T_W @ 12/7/2007 10:09:32 AM # Q
"We are pleased with... the significant progress we've made on our strategic platform"

Is this a reference to PalmLinux?

Or is he using a new definition of platform?

RE: 'Strategic Platform'
retrospooty @ 12/7/2007 10:26:57 AM # Q
The issue with Palm is that their engineering is assed up from the ground up. Its no one person, the whole mentality of the entire organization is set up to underachieve. At underacieving they have excelled for the past 5 years. Colligan resigning wont help. Additional money from elevation partners wont help. They needed a complete gutting and rebuilding of engineering several years ago and didnt do it. Too late now, even if they do it now, it will take to long to rebuild the org.

RE: 'Strategic Platform'
mikecane @ 12/7/2007 11:17:34 AM # Q
You labored at Palm?

RE: 'Strategic Platform'
retrospooty @ 12/7/2007 1:44:08 PM # Q
Who would admit to that? ;)

RE: 'Strategic Platform'
mikecane @ 12/7/2007 8:40:26 PM # Q
Must be a filthy gap on your resume. Ha!

Reply to this comment

Reminds me of last year...

tftp @ 12/8/2007 8:56:04 AM # Q
Remember about a year ago, when Colligan was mis-quoted as laughing off the iPhone competition? There was one key quote:

"What we need to do better is disciplined execution."

Even that quote was a precursor to Palm's announcement a week later that they missed expectations. A year later and there are still serious issues with Palm's fundamental approach to executing their business plan. 2007 could have been a great year for Palm. The delay in certifying the Verizon 755p hurts, but that doesn't explain last quarter's poor results. The 700p update debacle is a clear execution failure. Higher returns is a sign of poor manufacturing quality.

And the Foleo is a story unto itself. The Foleo could have been a huge success, if it had a better CPU, cost under $400 and had it not been marketed as a "Treo companion" (i.e. beating the Asus EEE PC to market by 6 months). But what-ifs don't make a successful product.

From all this, it is clear that there are execution problems at every level of the organization: product conceptualization, software, support and manufacturing. All we need now is an announcement of accounting irregularities and the story will be complete!

The Elevation deal both made sense and represented a sad reality for the company: extract the value of Palm and give it back to the shareholders. Since Palm had been unable to use that cash to fix its problems, it was right to return it to the shareholders. But this left Palm saddled with debt, unable to make money to pay it off, and thus unable to make key strategic investments if it needed.

This all boils down to one thing: this is Palm's last play. Palm needs an OS, fast. It needs 2 more innovative hardware designs (e.g. slider and TX-like). Palm should consider dropping the Foleo II if they don't believe they could compete with Asus and the other companies about to flood the market with flash-based PCs. Whatever Palm does, it needs to execute on its strategy and stop treading water.

RE: Reminds me of last year...
SeldomVisitor @ 12/8/2007 10:31:52 AM # Q
> ...(i.e. beating the Asus EEE PC to market by 6 months)...

I read somewhere a comment to the effect that PALM "released" the Fooleo when it did because it HAD to beat the competition that it already knew was coming. that's the problem with devices that take multiple years to develop after conception - the competition, bigger and richer, can come out with a competing BETTER device before your own device has seen light of day even though they might start developing it much later than you.

EEePC vs Foleo
Surur @ 12/8/2007 1:36:33 PM # Q
The EeePc is a very cheap small laptop = great value.

The Foleo was a very expensive, very large PDA = very poor value, hence the market reaction to both devices.

It seems many people still dont get this.

RE: Reminds me of last year...
mikecane @ 12/8/2007 1:45:51 PM # Q
>>>Remember about a year ago, when Colligan was mis-quoted as laughing off the iPhone competition?

Mis-quoted?! Mis-quoted?! Are you mad or being Colligan's PR apologist?

http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/07/dumbass-of-the-year-ed-colligan/

Elevation Partners -- PLEASE DE-elevate Colligan ASAP!

Reply to this comment

5 years hence: Mommy...

bbtkd @ 12/8/2007 9:04:38 AM # Q
Kid with runny nose: mommy... why is this 'cute care clinic so funny looking?

Mommy: It used to be a phone company or something, think it was called Palm.

This possible conversation came to mind the other day when I took my daughter to an acute care clinic in Sioux Falls, and walking by the display for the fire alarm system I noted it still said "Gateway 2000", the original tenant of the building.

Five years from now, does anyone realistically still foresee that Palm will serve any purpose other than their office becoming an acute care clinic? Yes, I realize Gateway still exists, barely. Maybe Palm will accidentally fall into some niche market to stay alive.

Being an old Palmboy, while I'd like to see them "pull it out" (of the dive, of their...), if their Linux phone is over a year away, if in the interim they keep releasing phones with too small of a screen and battery, and if they keep failing to address POS Treo issues, then acute care clinic here we come. I suppose that the Centro may appeal to young upgrading phone users, but the data fees (particularly VZW at $45/mo) are a deal breaker.

It was very convenient of them to call their OS POS...............

RE: 5 years hence: Mommy...
retrospooty @ 12/8/2007 9:37:38 AM # Q
"It was very convenient of them to call their OS POS..............."

LOL ... funny.

But come on now, when it was made it was the best thing out there... When is was revamped to handle ARM processors in 2002 it was still pretty much the best thing out that I can recall. The issue is at that time Palm stopped innovating and started making excuses for every product they put out and every trend they missed.

RE: 5 years hence: Mommy...
mikecane @ 12/8/2007 1:48:25 PM # Q
Sharp or Casio should buy them. Whichever company is still pushing out those low-end organizers. Then we'd FINALLY get a Palm PDA at what its true value in today's new market is worth: $99. (And that's for the TX!) For Sharp or Casio, that would be their high-end.

Yeah, baby! Graffiti 1 would be back!!

RE: 5 years hence: Mommy...
joad @ 12/10/2007 4:05:54 AM # Q
>The issue is at that time Palm stopped innovating and started making excuses for every product they put out and every trend they missed.

Looking back, I don't really see much "innovation" coming from Palm itself (beyond the initial device). TRG/Handera showed them how to build in a flash slot, Microsoft showed them the possibilities of a color screen, SONY showed them high-res color and a bunch of gadget add-ons (plus how to completely confuse the product line-up). Garmin expanded the device into workable mapping, Handspring showed them how to build cheap and graft in a data/phone connection, and Handspring also built the Treo 6xx/7xx formfactor before sputtering out into Palm's cash-rich hands.

If anything, Palm has fought innovation all along, and was only forced by others in the marketplace to do "something" so they just stole available ideas. With competition now limited, there's much less for Palm to steal, and much of what Palm had acquired from Handspring has now been appropriated by Palm's competition while they were busy deciding what color casing and type of flash memory they'd change to for this month...

|
**Another vote for a >100MB RAM Treo**

Reply to this comment

THREE YEARS ago TODAY

mikecane @ 12/8/2007 1:53:03 PM # Q
But, really, who's counting?

An open letter to the Linux community from PalmSource
Posted By: Ryan on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:28:14 PM

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7383

RE: THREE YEARS ago TODAY
retrospooty @ 12/8/2007 6:39:07 PM # Q
LOL - and the hardware side is about as talented and motivated as the software side was.

sad really.

Reply to this comment

here's what the *should* do

tompi @ 12/9/2007 3:21:37 AM # Q
Palm has been handed a solution to their problems on a silver platter: Android. If they can ship a Windows Mobile phone, they should have no qualms shipping an Android phone. And if they're first out the gate with an Android phone (based on Centro and the 755p platforms), they could probably get a big market share.

I also think they shouldn't worry about PalmOS compatibility right now and just go for a big new market. Over the next year, they can then worry about coming out with additional software for Palm backwards compatibility, maybe using their own Palm-on-Linux technology or licensing something.

For Palm to try to fight against Android, iPhone, Symbian, and Windows mobile with their aging PalmOS is hopeless. It's even more hopeless because Palm not only is an old operating system, it also has an outdated view even of what a phone operating system should be and do.

RE: here's what the *should* do
twrock @ 12/9/2007 4:04:31 AM # Q
I don't think it would be too hard for Palm slap a Garnet VM onto Android. Support for Garnet apps is important if they want to keep some of their long-term users on board by letting them migrate to the new OS slowly (whether Android or their own Linux based OS). But since Access saw fit to do it with Nokia's Maemo OS already, maybe they are the ones to do it. (I still haven't figured out why they did that.)

But I still think Palm is dead as a hardware only manufacturer. I don't think it matters if it is WinMob or Android, the hardware "lead" they had early on is completely gone and the name reputation is going to fade away very quickly, particularly if they don't have something besides the hardware to differentiate themselves.

The old TX is working quite well again. I've got my Zodiac2 serving as a stationary music player. I could pick that right up and start using it if the TX dies. Apple? Android? Palm Linux? Nokia? Nothing out there looks compelling yet, so I'll just wait this one out and see what shows up to be my next device.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: here's what the *should* do
SeldomVisitor @ 12/9/2007 8:10:16 AM # Q
> I don't think it would be too hard for Palm slap a Garnet VM
> onto Android...

Oh good grief!

PALM can't even slap a Garnet Release onto a Garnet Release as the very-recent example of the 700p more than amply demonstrates.

Could PALM license PalmSource's slappable Garnet?

Sure!

But...gawd...

RE: here's what the *should* do
twrock @ 12/9/2007 7:56:44 PM # Q
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
Palm has never done anything right, isn't doing anything right, and will never do anything right. Same shtick, different day.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
Reply to this comment

Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.

VampireLestat @ 12/9/2007 1:13:45 PM # Q
Commodore with its Commodore 64/128/Amiga was a dominant player and the company collapsed because management started dictating and imposing their own design visions onto hardware developer engineers. This is very well documented. When Jack Tramiel left Commodore, the company collapsed because they scientists and artists who actually made the C64 and Amiga huge successes were prevented from doing their job.

Ed Colligan is repeating history. He is the problem.

One of the final crowns of Palm OS was palmgear.com with its 30 000+ software library (which included 5000 freeware titles). They recently deleted all the freeware and flushed anything that wasn't selling well. Unless some other company mimics the old PalmGear, Palm OS is for all intents and purposes dead.

- Splitting Palm was a disaster. (Sony's fault!- yes... the same bunch of who are pushing grossly DRMed BlueRay, etc; please don't EVER buy a Sony product).
- Licensing Windows Mobile was a disaster. It did exactly what I and many others predicted, it diverged resources away from Palm OS.
- Abandoning handhelds, another gross hideous obscene fatal mistake. Treos are great but Palm had the know how and market to sell multiple lines of PDAs, PDA-phones and laptop replacements.
- Outsourcing all hardware production to China and actually pretending that becoming a VAR (value added reseller) was a good thing; when in fact meant Palm became slackers who were losing their hardware design know-how. Sidenote: The latter problem being a plague that will eventually make North America 3rd world nations (US-Can-Mex) who no longer know how to make anything and be independent. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE DO SOMETHING?!!!! (sigh) Close the freaking borders to China already!
- Not being able to buy back PalmSource. I am sure they could of somehow found the $ to buy them. Massive loss of talent. Palm hired a bunch of newbies who are inexperienced therefore inadequate to pull Palm and Palm OS out of its quagmire.
- Canceling the Foleo 2 weeks before its launch made Colligan and Palm look like a bunch of loons. Colligan probably single handedly alienated the most inspiring and brilliant mind at Palm Inc, Jeff Hawkins.

Ed PDA-killer Colligan must be removed from the company, yesterday.

Solutions:
- Fire Colligan (as he will never leave on his own).
- Continue to support but no longer develop, make new WM devices.
- Repatriate the hardware design/production to North America. (and yes, that does mean actually increasing the final product prices a bit).
- Stop price gouging Canada with a 499$ unlocked Treo 680 which is sold 379$ in the US.
- Leave the Palm OS (over Linux) programmers and hardware engineers freedom to innovate!
- Listen to consumers.
- Bring back multiple PDA lines, go OLED, improve the MP3 and video experience, miniature, keep on with the phones, but try to keep a good line of unlocked devices so as to not be carrier slaves.
- Revive the Foleo.
- Try to get back all the now lost Palm OS freeware library and start a new PalmGear.com look-a-like site.
- Get out there and make a unique product, a unique experience (like Jobs did with his iPods).
- Lose the "VAR, WM, Chinese" bitches mentality.

Again, the first step to all of the above solutions is to FIRE ED COLLIGAN.
Make Hawkins or one of them new ex-Apple guys on the Palm board the new CEO.

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 1:54:35 PM # Q
>>>- Splitting Palm was a disaster. (Sony's fault!- yes... the same bunch of who are pushing grossly DRMed BlueRay, etc; please don't EVER buy a Sony product).

No, NOT Sony's fault. The fault of that gold-thread-suited eejit, Yankowski. He once worked at Sony and convinced them to take a license. The Sony Reader is a kick-ass killer product and shouldn't be slandered for a past Palm CEO's idiocy. And it's arguable that if it hadn't been for Sony, we wouldn't have seen any of the improvements we got. Palm would have gone 240x320 instead of 320x480, for instance. And it was a Sony product that *inspired* Hawkins.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=3129

>>>- Abandoning handhelds, another gross hideous obscene fatal mistake. Treos are great but Palm had the know how and market to sell multiple lines of PDAs, PDA-phones and laptop replacements.

At this point, they only need two new handhelds. One for $49, one for $99. They're not worth more than that.

>>>- Outsourcing all hardware production to China and actually pretending that becoming a VAR (value added reseller) was a good thing; when in fact meant Palm became slackers who were losing their hardware design know-how. Sidenote: The latter problem being a plague that will eventually make North America 3rd world nations (US-Can-Mex) who no longer know how to make anything and be independent. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE DO SOMETHING?!!!! (sigh) Close the freaking borders to China already!

You show your youth. What is actually called "de-industrialization" has been taking place since a seminal book on that subject was published in 1956. China is doing nothing more than taking money being thrown at them. (And then having the bad grace to *cheat* in return!)

>>>- Not being able to buy back PalmSource. I am sure they could of somehow found the $ to buy them. Massive loss of talent. Palm hired a bunch of newbies who are inexperienced therefore inadequate to pull Palm and Palm OS out of its quagmire.

Their problems started well before that. That the Command Bar never reached its full potential was the first sign of trouble.

>>>- Canceling the Foleo 2 weeks before its launch made Colligan and Palm look like a bunch of loons. Colligan probably single handedly alienated the most inspiring and brilliant mind at Palm Inc, Jeff Hawkins.

They could have saved it -- and now probably wish to hell they had. RESIGN, Colligan.

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
VampireLestat @ 12/9/2007 2:21:45 PM # Q
Good, I am glad you agree with firing Colligan.

btw, where the hell did all those e-PCs come from? I go to work one day and someone says: "ohh I might be one of them new Eeeeees". Im like, wtf.. thats a Foleo!

Question: Is the Eee a ripoff of the Foleo or vice-versa?
I find the timing too co-incidental.

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 2:54:18 PM # Q
Agree? Agree? I've been pushing for it! See my posts all over Palm Infocenter (have you heard of it?).

Also:

http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/if-we-cant-have-momentum-on-this-can-i-at-least-get-an-amen-brother/

The EeePC does not rip off the Foleo nor vice versa. Coincidences happen. And as surur pointed out: the EeePC is a *real computer*. The Foleo had the heart of a PDA (with a graphics coprocessor tacked on; BFD). Hawkins mistakes was under-speccing it from the start. WTF was he thinking, announcing *anything* new that couldn't handle YouTube?!

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 2:55:24 PM # Q
RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
hkklife @ 12/9/2007 3:07:03 PM # Q
$50 is too low for a proper PDA to be sold at retail and receive anything close to support from Palm. Let's face it, they are not a Sharp/Casio/HP that can bang out zillions of these things. Anything LESS than $100 with MORE features/quality than the current Z22 would make for a compelling basic PIM/mp3 machine.

I'd rather Palm stick to the current "on sale" price points for replacement models and try to get their QC levels up and their R&D team jumpstarted.

Pricepoints of $75-$100 (entry level) and $125-$150 (if there is even a mid-range model) and $200 (for the flagship) make sense for new handhelds.

Basically:

1. Z22 replacement w/ SD slot & headphone jack for <$100

2. T|E2 replacement (essentially a Centro that replces the cellular radio with wi-fi) for $150ish.

3. TX2 with 128mb RAM, fullsize SDHC slot, charge LED, high-capacity battery, internal microphone, 2gb of internal flash, big software bundle (Centro-esque) and 802.11g for $200ish.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
hkklife @ 12/9/2007 3:13:59 PM # Q
Also, I notice distinct similarities in the rise & fall of Atari alongside Palm & Commodore.

All classic case studies. The "Osborne effect" really should be moved out of future textbooks or at least updated with a section entitled "The m500 Announcement Debacle" and folllowed by a chapter entitled "The Fooleo Follies".

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
Gekko @ 12/9/2007 3:20:20 PM # Q

Love affair with Commodore 64 continues

updated 11:48 a.m. EST, Fri December 7, 2007

Commodore 64 still loved after all these years
By Peggy Mihelich
CNN

(CNN) -- Like a first love or a first car, a first computer can hold a special place in people's hearts. For millions of kids who grew up in the 1980s, that first computer was the Commodore 64. Twenty-five years later, that first brush with computer addiction is as strong as ever.

"There was something magical about the C64," says Andreas Wallstrom of Stockholm, Sweden.

He remembers the day he first laid eyes on his machine back in 1984.

"My father brought it home together with a tape deck, a disk drive, a printer, and a couple of games...I used to sneak home during lunch to play [on it] with my friends."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/ptech/12/07/c64/index.html



RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 3:59:08 PM # Q
RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 4:04:35 PM # Q
Damn you, Gekko! I posted without looking.

God, what days (getting all misty eyed)...

C64 with Zenith *amber monochrome* 12" CRT.

1541 5.25" *floppy* drive. Ah, EasyScript-64! Which had copy-protection that banged the hell out of the 1541's heads. Hackrrz stripped off the copy-protection and we were all good to go (yes, I bought it legally, which is why I *needed* a stripped copy!).

OMG -- a daisywheel printer! (Kddz here are going, huh? wha? he printed with a *flower*? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisywheel )

OMG! No MOUSE!!!

Blazing along online at ** 300bps **!

Baby, I bought mine at Toys R Us!!

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 4:08:13 PM # Q
Now you got me all sidetracked into nostalgia, dammit!

http://www.csdm.qc.ca/pec/codes/peripheriques.html

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 4:22:24 PM # Q
And I also owned an Atari 1040ST. Should have had HI between the letters. Got rid of it in I think less than six months to someone who wanted a second one. He also bought the Mac emulating Magic Sac.

http://lowendmac.com/clones/atari.html

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/9/2007 4:23:27 PM # Q
I still have a couple Amigas.

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
Surur @ 12/9/2007 4:24:30 PM # Q
Mike, did you ever upload your own fonts to your printer, or run code on the processor of the 1541's processor.

Those were the days...

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 4:29:17 PM # Q
It was a daisywheel. You took out the physical wheel if you wanted to switch fonts. The most you could do with one wheel was change the pitch (made letters squish together).

Oh my god... buying perforated paper! And when printing I'd leave the room and shut the door because it was like a machine gun...

I'm no coder, so I never did anything with the 1541's on-board chip. I know there were those who did. One of them was a woman (see, tnkgrl, there were others before you!).

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/9/2007 4:36:33 PM # Q
Reprogramming the Epson MX100 for graphics was fun.


RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
VampireLestat @ 12/9/2007 7:43:49 PM # Q
I use to buy all my Commodore peripherals at Montgomery Grant in NYC by mail order. Anyone remember them? We did not have Canada-USA free trade back then and it cost me a fortune to import a C64 floppy drive or printer. I mowed laws all summer for those gadgets. Compute's Gazette then allowed me to learn BASIC and how machine language works.

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 7:59:52 PM # Q
>>>Compute's Gazette then allowed me to learn BASIC and how machine language works.

Good for you. I was and still am a coding moron. One typo in their listings would kill me. Thanks, Compute!, for killing any curiosity I had in that vein.

Now all I can do is admire -- or spit on! -- code from afar and sigh.

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
abosco @ 12/10/2007 12:21:01 AM # Q
Old heads. All of you.

I mowed laws all summer for those gadgets.

You mowed laws all summer? Are you the Ninth District Court of Appeals?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

How on earth could Foleo have been a success?!?
DrewT3 @ 12/10/2007 4:37:02 AM # Q
The EeePC is not anything like the Foleo except that they both look like small laptops. Their function is completely different:
EeePC is a simple, inexpensive computer that will let people do email, browse the web, etc. It is great for people who don't want to spend a lot of money and who want to get online.

The Foleo was a very expensive and over designed external screen and keyboard for a couple of the newer Treo models. It could not even send or receive email without a Treo and a cellular data plan! The Foleo's only market was people who already have a Treo and didn't mind spending another $400 (and carrying around a laptop-sized device) to let them type their Treo emails on a full size keyboard. The size of this market is in the single digits.

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/10/2007 7:07:24 AM # Q
> ...The size of this market is in the single digits.

Lol! (literally - almost spewed my coffee!)

But...but...but...but...that was PALM's Last Next Great Thing!?

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
PacManFoo @ 12/10/2007 9:33:10 PM # Q
Apple meet Commodore

http://www.news.com/8301-13772_3-9832092-52.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1040_3-0-5


PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/11/2007 3:00:34 PM # Q
OMG! What a link! What a photo! Thanks!

Say what you will about Tramiel, but the VIC-20 and C=64 were both solid products and I never heard *anyone* bitch online about their quality.

(As for the 1541 drive, well...)

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
BaalthazaaR @ 12/11/2007 4:24:53 PM # Q
Well back then, companies actually seemed to care about quality. My old 8088 was still functioning (although never used) after I finished college. My parents finally tossed it out about six years ago. Heck my Palm V and Visor Edge are still in very good shape compared to my POS Palm TX.
RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
VampireLestat @ 12/11/2007 5:04:56 PM # Q
PacManFoo,

thanks for the Wosniak Tramiel photo. Was real fun to see them.

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
palmato @ 12/11/2007 6:36:13 PM # Q
For the record, ArsTechnica is running a series of articles on the Amiga and Commodore
See part 5 and previous parts at
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amiga-history-part-5.ars
Amazing read for all of us dinosaurs, still moved by the thought of the bouncing red and white ball.


--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
Gekko @ 12/11/2007 7:02:24 PM # Q

my c-64, 1541, 1702, mps802, and 64modem are all still collecting dust in my parent's attic. what a great machine - got me through high school and college. used dial up "bulletin boards" - the precursor to the internet - wow look where it took us. and had some fun gaming along the way - my favorite game was "beyond castle wolfenstein".

http://koti.welho.com/slemmett/harrastus/imgr/c-wolf01.gif

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
VampireLestat @ 12/11/2007 7:24:29 PM # Q
My favorite game was a little chess game I typed in myself out of Compute's Gazette magazine. My dad was never really close to me, but we did share a passion for chess; so in a sense my Commodore 64 with chess on it brought us closer together.

Of course my father is a pig, so not even the C64 could keep us close. *shrug* oh well, life is a bitch.

*humming old TV ad* "I adore my 64, my Commodore 64. I work with it, I play with, my Commodore 64."

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
Gekko @ 12/11/2007 7:49:46 PM # Q
RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
Gekko @ 12/11/2007 9:20:01 PM # Q
RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/12/2007 10:23:02 AM # Q
Oh man, that old ad music sent chills down my spine! Thanks!

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
mikecane @ 12/13/2007 12:09:29 PM # Q
OK, this is really getting up my nose now. They had a 25th anny bash for the C=64. So WTF isn't a video of it ONLINE?! How come I can't listen to what Jack Tramiel said?! WTF is this, the 20th Century where I have to hope it's covered on fekkin TechTV?!

Bah, all I can find is this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YLxy8TRuXhg

RE: Palm is collapsing like Commodore did.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/13/2007 12:12:02 PM # Q
Reply to this comment

Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!

mikecane @ 12/9/2007 3:00:24 PM # Q
Asus EeePC sold out across Australia
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/15610/1023/

>>>The word from our ear on the ground is that the Asus EeePC sub-notebook, which made its Australian debut in the Myer department store chain on 2 December, was sold out completely across stores in the major capitals by Sunday.

>>>Myer has 67 stores across Australia and the EeePC is being sold exclusively through the chain for a retail price AUD$499.

>>>Asus boasts on its site that it has been selling a EeePC every six seconds and there have been stories about the company not being able to keep up with the demand in the markets in which it is available, including the US. If what took place last weekend at Myer stores is any indication, Australia will be no exception.

You fired the Foleo.

Now please FIRE YOURSELF!

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 3:05:03 PM # Q
So Eeeasy, two girls show it off.

http://www.shinyshiny.tv/2007/11/shiny_video_rev_146.html

What advantages did the Foleo have?

Screen size
Keyboard size

Two things Asus can do Eeeasily.

Colligan! REeesign!

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
freakout @ 12/9/2007 3:31:02 PM # Q
I stopped in at Myer to (try) and grope an Eee last week. Guy on the sales desk told me they got 160 of them for Christmas and had already received about 300 pre-orders. Wasn't even a display one to look at. (Which makes me wonder how many of those pre-orders were sight unseen. Now that's consumer confidence...)
RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
freakout @ 12/9/2007 3:35:53 PM # Q
What advantages did the Foleo have?

Screen size
Keyboard size

Instant-on

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 4:19:57 PM # Q
Yeah, OK, I'll grant the instant on too.

But given the *full* capabilities of the Eee in comparison, I'll wait a few seconds.

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
SeldomVisitor @ 12/9/2007 4:20:15 PM # Q
Instant-on was a feature of the application that was running at the time the Fooleo was ... uh ... turned off - no such feature hardwired into the application, dead Fooleo on coming back ... uh ... "on" or would it simply be a normal laptop startup?

My comment here about that:

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8465/#137742

and a comment from a major developer-for-the-Fooleo from which that was based here:

== "...The program would also need logic changes to work well in the
== "instant-on" application model..."

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1336614&postcount=42

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 4:26:10 PM # Q
Yes, that's right. Instant-on would *not* have been global for every app. Also, instant switching between apps wouldn't have been there, either. I recall seeing a vid demo of a game and damn it took like thirty frikkin seconds to load.

Another strike against the Foleo: it used that crappy Opera browser (do not argue with me!). Hell, even Die!Nokia!Die! ditched that in their anti-Net tab for Firefox.

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
freakout @ 12/9/2007 5:58:12 PM # Q
^^ App switching/opening looks pretty snappy in this vid:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iSdXOoTY4KY

Although it's all built-in software.

SV:
and a comment from a major developer-for-the-Fooleo from which that was based here:

== "...The program would also need logic changes to work well in the
== "instant-on" application model..."

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1336614&postcount=42

That quote and link are in reference to porting OpenOffice to the Foleo - an absolute pig of an application that takes forever to open even on my 1.8 ghz desktop and is apparently evil on the Eee: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/eee-pc-review.ars/3

The Foleo would have required devs to design software with their instant-on model in mind rather than just doing slapdash ports of desktop Linux software. Which is both a good and a bad thing... but then, this is all academic, isn't it. Foleo II is a long way off. Even if Palm survive 2008.

In the meantime, I'm still looking for a lightweight writing machine. Probably going to pick up an Eee... once they're back in stock.

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
SeldomVisitor @ 12/9/2007 7:03:56 PM # Q
> ...The Foleo would have required devs to design software with their
> instant-on model in mind rather than just doing slapdash ports of
> desktop Linux software...

You answer my post as if you are debating it, then confirm exactly what I said.

Why not just sit on your hands?

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
mikecane @ 12/9/2007 7:47:40 PM # Q
>>>A modest collection of productivity software is included with the Eee, most notably the OpenOffice.org (OOo) office suite. Unfortunately, OOo is sluggish and memory-intensive, which makes it a poor choice for a laptop with limited system resources. OOo Writer takes between six and eight seconds to start up on the Eee, which is unacceptably slow.

That is hardly evil. It's a frikkin full-featured WP program! It's not Windows NotePad or WordPad. And since he's using it with just 512MB of RAM, perhaps more RAM would make it better.

>>>By comparison, the GNOME-based Abiword word processor uses significantly less memory and starts instantly. Abiword isn't available from the standard software repository and is difficult to install on the Eee.

AbiWord is a piece of rancid sh*t that destroys documents capriciously. I used it on the Die!Nokia!Die! 770 until it ate five documents. I'd rather shoot myself in the head if that was the only choice I had to do WP.

YouTube is currently experiencing the vapors. I think this is the clip that shows a very slow loading game on the Foleo:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qWxfPaspFwM

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
freakout @ 12/9/2007 8:16:12 PM # Q
You answer my post as if you are debating it, then confirm exactly what I said.

Why not just sit on your hands?

Because I love you, SV. I've always loved you. And I'll never stop loving you.

Hug?

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
DrewT3 @ 12/10/2007 4:45:33 AM # Q
Colligan did the right thing killing the Foleo (how can anyone doubt this???). The only thing that stood between the Foleo and victory in the marketplace was it needed an OS and a full featured application suite...

... delivered by the company that has been working on a new OS for a cell phone for 5 years and who's products still don't support the current version of Windows a year after release.

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
SeldomVisitor @ 12/10/2007 7:04:01 AM # Q
> ...YouTube is currently experiencing the vapors...

For a Google service it seems unusually NONsnappy often.

> ...I think this is the clip that shows a very slow loading game on the Foleo...

Clip!?

Clip!?

That damn thing is 20+ minutes long!?

That's no clip; it's an epic movie!

No WAY am I gonna sit for THAT one!

[Ob-OT-but-related-rant: Went to see Golden Compass with the Spousie and Kidlet on Friday. Unmentioned is that the damn movie, ala Pirates of the Caribbean, does not end but leaves you hanging mid-story. I despise movies that start but do not end without a Heads Up and, due to this Nth attack of the same, we as a family unit have decided to join the churn and simply not go to movie theaters for new releases - we'll wait for the DVD. Based on the emptiness of the theater, I'd say quite a few folks have decided the same thing. Crap.]

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
Surur @ 12/10/2007 8:01:49 AM # Q
I similarly went to see the golden compass with family in tow. At least I knew ahead of time it was a trilogy, as its based on a series of books. I agree however that this is a deceptive practice thats on the rise.

Its the fist children's movie I have seen where 'daemons' wander around all over the place. Apparently this had the Christian groups up in arms.

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
SeldomVisitor @ 12/10/2007 8:08:58 AM # Q
Actually, until I figured out that the movie had no end I thought the whole idea was intriguingly good "sci-fi" (and, of course, the computer graphics were great).
RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
mikecane @ 12/10/2007 9:41:59 AM # Q
>>>Because I love you, SV. I've always loved you. And I'll never stop loving you.

>>>Hug?

After coming from JKontheRun and seeing the sad news of the death of Marc Orchant, I really needed a laugh.

Thanks.

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
mikecane @ 12/10/2007 9:47:38 AM # Q
>>>That damn thing is 20+ minutes long!?

And it's also all in Spanish! But it is worth it. Best Foleo vid of them all.

Here, you sissy, drag the slider to 17:17 (you don't have to wait for it to all load now, surprisingly). You'll see two games loading.

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
SeldomVisitor @ 12/10/2007 10:02:17 AM # Q
Tenkuveddymuch.

[I had missed the Spanish part! I always have the sound off on YouTube...probably wouldn't have noticed it at all if you hadn't mentioned it!]

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
mikecane @ 12/10/2007 12:27:34 PM # Q
Hello, it's from PDA*Mexico*, gringo. (That said, I am a gringo and no speaka de Spanish.)

I'm still amazed at the time and effort he put into that vid. That site really does some great stuff.

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
SeldomVisitor @ 12/10/2007 2:06:24 PM # Q
Silly person - when I click on a video link the LAST thing I do is =read=!

RE: Hey Ed Colligan: Eat it!
mikecane @ 12/10/2007 7:45:26 PM # Q
What, you like your anime DUBBED instead of SUBBED?

Ew.

Reply to this comment

Michael Mace gives a great quote!

mikecane @ 12/9/2007 7:57:32 PM # Q
Speaking of GarnetVM from ACCESS on the Die!Nokia!Die! Anti-Net Tabs:

>>>(It says something about the momentum for your OS when you feel the installed base of Nokia Linux tablets is an attractive developer target, but I guess you take what you can get.)

http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2007/11/palm-os-on-nokia-strategy-or-tactic.html

Oh, out of the ball park! Home run! Nice one!



RE: Michael Mace gives a great quote!
twrock @ 12/9/2007 8:33:22 PM # Q
Nice link Mike. I hadn't seen that. There is some interesting analysis there, and at least he did talk to someone at Access before he posted. That's much better than most. So there is at least some answer for the question that keeps floating around in my head: why did Access do it?


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Michael Mace gives a great quote!
mikecane @ 12/10/2007 9:43:01 AM # Q
Well, at least ACCESS *did something*.

Palm? Feh!

Reply to this comment

Elevation: Give Ed his Xmas present NOW!

mikecane @ 12/10/2007 12:29:08 PM # Q
A nice big You're Fired in a pretty ribbon.

Please!

(Dammit, I *knew* there was so Santa Claus!)

RE: Elevation: Give Ed his Xmas present NOW!
Poopie @ 12/10/2007 3:37:01 PM # Q
How about auctioning off the right to throw a pie in his face for the top 100 bidders. I bet more than a few people on this board would be willing to spend about as much as they have on Palm devices over the years for that!

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: Elevation: Give Ed his Xmas present NOW!
mikecane @ 12/10/2007 4:13:46 PM # Q
I want him to leave. I'm not looking for childish idiotic stunts.

RE: Elevation: Give Ed his Xmas present NOW!
VampireLestat @ 12/10/2007 10:37:39 PM # Q
hmm.. I would actually bid for the pie opportunity.

Reply to this comment

Paging abosco

mikecane @ 12/10/2007 3:54:55 PM # Q
RE: Paging abosco
abosco @ 12/10/2007 5:07:34 PM # Q
You mean people actually ENJOY using their iPhone? But Freakout has convinced me that you can't get anything done without a microscopic Treo keyboard! Is he wrong?!?!

My buddy was in New York and texted me (Pennsylvania) that he saw the 2007 facelifted model of my car (I have the 2005 model) and liked it. He told me that before he even exited to the menu, he had received my reply, stating how the headlights looked more like a Cougar and they needed to add back in the side brake vents.

Basically, anybody that has seen me use the iPhone is truly astounded as to what they can do with it. On the off chance someone tries to be daft and says, *eye roll*, "Oh you have an iPhone," someone will quickly jump in and say FOR me, "No, he seriously uses every feature; it's unbelievable."

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Paging abosco
mikecane @ 12/10/2007 7:43:41 PM # Q
Just send the doubters to me... grrrr...

Mike Cane @ The Battleground 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqqouotCxzk

(Hah! I wish. But put me in the ring with Colligan and I'd kick his .asp!)

RE: Paging abosco
twrock @ 12/11/2007 12:50:57 AM # Q
Slap 3G on the thing and open it up to developers, and it's going to be really hard to compete with in the years to come, trust me.

And I think that is what a lot of us are hoping for (well, that, and a little lower price tag). I'm still in "wait-and-see" mode.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Paging abosco
freakout @ 12/11/2007 1:41:14 AM # Q
You mean people actually ENJOY using their iPhone? But Freakout has convinced me that you can't get anything done without a microscopic Treo keyboard! Is he wrong?!?!

No, finally!, and no. :P

Reply to this comment

Another nail in Foleo's coffin

mikecane @ 12/10/2007 8:52:25 PM # Q
"Cloudbook" UMPC to run Googlish Linux
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6962839488.html

** 30GB HD ** = ** $400 **

>>>Our source suggested that Everex would likely launch the Cloudbook at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas the week of Jan. 7, with consumer availability as soon as Jan. 15.

And:

>>>The Cloudbook appears to be FIC/Everex's answer to Asus's EEE PC (pictured at right), another ultra-mobile Linux-powered PC that began shipping earlier this fall. Like the EEE PC, the Cloudbook will use a 7-inch WVGA (800x480) LCD display, along with an identical keyboard, albeit in a different color, our source close to the company said.

>>>That's where the similarities end, though. The EEE PC uses a 900MHz Celeron processor, whereas Cloudbook will use a Via C7 ULV (ultra-low voltage), clocked at 1.2GHz. And, instead of the EEE PC's 4GB SSD (solid-state disk), the Cloudbook will pack in a 30GB hard disk drive.

>>>Other preliminary Cloudbook specs confirmed by our source include 512MB of RAM, built-in wired and wireless Ethernet interfaces, a 4-in-1 card reader, a pair of USB 2.0 ports, and DVI-out. Thanks to DVI-to-HDMI and other available converters, the Cloudbook should "hook up to most multimedia equipment," said our source, citing projectors and TVs with digital interfaces.

And:

>>>The standard Cloudbook is expected to ship on Jan. 15, priced at $400 with a 30GB hard drive.

Colligan: Goodbye!

RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
twrock @ 12/11/2007 12:41:49 AM # Q
>>...7-inch WVGA (800x480) LCD display, along with an identical keyboard....

Bummer.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
mikecane @ 12/11/2007 7:49:15 PM # Q
Hello, McFly?!!?

Let me put that in perspective.

When the frikkin LifeDrive was released, it offered 320x480, a 416MHz CPU, and 4GB of storage.

For FIVE HUNDRED BUCKS.

RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
twrock @ 12/12/2007 1:09:50 AM # Q
What are you babbling about?
I point out that the 7 inch screen and an identical keyboard to the Eee is a bummer and you start talking about the LifeDrive and its price tag? Are you so old that you can't remember the whole long thread about the screen and keyboard in the Eee being too small? This has nothing to do with Palm or the LifeDrive. Who cares if the LifeDrive was some overpriced piece of crap (and you were warned before you bought one, so you've nothing to complain about); it's a PDA, it fits in your pocket and it has no keyboard at all. So from what "perspective" does that relate to the tiny size of the Cloudbook's screen and keyboard? If the Cloudbook follows the same form factor as the Eee PC, IMO it's a bummer. That's all; plain and simple.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
mikecane @ 12/12/2007 10:24:37 AM # Q
>>>Are you so old that you can't remember the whole long thread about the screen and keyboard in the Eee being too small?

Oh, it's YOU again! The one with the fat fingers that look like the kind of bratwurst distributed during Oktoberfest.

There's no help for you.

RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
SeldomVisitor @ 12/12/2007 10:55:11 AM # Q
Lol!

RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
mikecane @ 12/12/2007 3:27:41 PM # Q
Good. You laughed.

With needing those eejit smileys to get the tone.

RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
mikecane @ 12/12/2007 3:29:12 PM # Q
Goddammit! My fingers are dropping letters again. Some sort of data leakage from the brain to finger connections. I probably need a new router somewhere. Or maybe the insulation is fraying somewhere...

Should have been WITHOUT needing eejit smileys...

RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
twrock @ 12/12/2007 6:21:43 PM # Q
My fingers are dropping letters again. Some sort of data leakage from the brain to finger connections.

Well old man, my "bratwurst" fingers still work great as does my brain. Too bad that neither seem to for you.

Take your time. Relax. Breathe deeply. The internet will still be here later. (But then again, at your age, maybe you won't....)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Another nail in Foleo's coffin
mikecane @ 12/13/2007 12:14:31 PM # Q
>>>Well old man, my "bratwurst" fingers still work great as does my brain. Too bad that neither seem to for you.

>>>Take your time. Relax. Breathe deeply. The internet will still be here later. (But then again, at your age, maybe you won't....)

Death won't release you. It's in my contract I get to haunt!

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