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Comments on: Palm and Microsoft Announce Windows Mobile Treo

Palm Windows Mobile Treo 700w ~ Click for largerPalm and Microsoft today announced a strategic alliance to accelerate the smartphone market segment with a new device for mobile professionals and businesses. Palm has licensed the Microsoft Windows Mobile operating system for an expanded line of Treo smartphones, the first of which will be available on Verizon Wireless' national wireless broadband network. The news was revealed in a press conference today.
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Unbelievable

scoT1753 @ 9/26/2005 12:41:17 PM # Q
Wow

RE: Unbelievable
sremick @ 9/26/2005 12:42:18 PM # Q
I shudder to think that my T3 might be the last Palm I ever own.

http://vtbsd.net/winhelp/
RE: Unbelievable
SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 1:19:07 PM # Q
A questioner snuck in the 240x240 resolution of the announced device ina question to Bill Gates. That resolution comment was not "corrected" by Gates or Colligan.

RE: Unbelievable
Captain Hair @ 9/26/2005 3:56:38 PM # Q
I can't say that I'm surprised, we all saw it coming. Remember when we saw this same HTC Treo running WM so many months ago? And I understand the business sense behind the decision, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. At least this will create more sales for Palm, with monetary support from Microsoft. That means more money to put into R&D.

"People who think they're smart annoy those of us who are."
RE: Unbelievable
T_W @ 9/26/2005 4:02:02 PM # Q
>At least this will create more sales for Palm, with monetary
>support from Microsoft. That means more money to put into R&D.

What do they need R&D money for? To discover more efficient ways to forward MS specs to HTC for design and manufacturing?

Believe it.
Snoop_Doggy_Dogg @ 9/26/2005 5:05:23 PM # Q
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1178056/000119312505190744/dprem14a.htm

Background of the Merger


PalmSource’s board of directors has periodically discussed and reviewed PalmSource’s business, strategic direction, performance and prospects in the context of developments in the PDA, smartphone and feature phone markets and the competitive landscapes in which PalmSource operates. PalmSource’s board has also at times discussed with senior management various potential strategic alternatives involving possible acquisitions or business combinations that could complement and enhance PalmSource’s competitive strengths and strategic position.


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Recognizing the maturing of its core PDA business, during the fiscal year ending June 3, 2005, PalmSource began to transition its business model to address potential new growth opportunities in the broader phone market. As part of this strategy, in January 2005, PalmSource completed its acquisition of China MobileSoft Ltd., the parent of a Nanjing, China-based developer and licensor of software for mobile feature phones, a potential new platform for Palm OS outside of the current smartphone market. In addition, PalmSource announced a corporate restructuring on June 29, 2005, which included a 16% reduction in PalmSource’s U.S. headcount. PalmSource intended the restructuring to streamline its operating infrastructure, focus its product development activities and accelerate the integration of the China-based engineering resources into PalmSource’s global product development efforts


Between late May 2005 and July 2005, PalmSource was approached by ACCESS Co. and by a communications technology company, Nokia, on an unsolicited basis, to discuss a potential strategic relationship. This led in each case to unsolicited indications of interest in acquiring PalmSource.


Having received two unsolicited inquiries regarding a potential acquisition, on July 6, 2005, PalmSource’s board of directors approved engaging financial and business advisors to assist PalmSource in evaluating its strategic alternatives. In addition, board members Gassée, Finocchio and Keever were appointed as a committee to oversee, on a day to day basis, the process of reviewing strategic alternatives and to report back to the entire board with respect to material developments and recommendations. The board of directors also subsequently engaged an outside consultant to assist the committee in its activities.


On July 13, 2005, the committee of the board interviewed potential financial advisors to advise the company with respect to the unsolicited inquiries and the company’s strategic alternatives and, on July 18, 2005, PalmSource engaged Jefferies Broadview.


Following Mr. Finocchio’s resignation from the PalmSource board of directors on July 18, 2005, Dr. Shoven was named to the committee.


On July 18, 2005, members of the committee and PalmSource’s senior management met with representatives of Jefferies Broadview and representatives of Howard Rice Nemerovski Canady Falk & Rabkin (referred to in this proxy statement as Howard Rice), PalmSource’s external legal counsel, to discuss the initial inquiries and to discuss a process to consider strategic alternatives. A list of companies that could potentially have an interest in discussions with PalmSource was compiled and reviewed during the meeting. Three companies in addition to ACCESS and Nokia were selected by PalmSource for initial contact by Jefferies Broadview.


On July 19, 2005, Messrs. Nobuya Murofushi and Koichi Narasaki from ACCESS Co. met with the committee, PalmSource’s senior management and representatives of Jefferies Broadview to discuss the rationale and strategy for a potential acquisition.


During late July and early August 2005, Jefferies Broadview was in contact with ACCESS Co., Nokia and three other communications technology and mobile computing companies to discuss a potential strategic transaction with PalmSource. One of these other companies determined it was not interested in considering the opportunity. The remaining companies, ACCESS Co., Nokia, Palm and Motorola, conducted preliminary diligence on PalmSource and held various meetings with members of the committee, PalmSource’s senior management and representatives of Jefferies Broadview during late July and early August 2005.


During August 2005, Motorola determined that it was not prepared to make a proposal to acquire PalmSource, leaving ACCESS Co., Nokia and Palm in the process.


On August 18 and 19, 2005, ACCESS Co. and Nokia provided initial indications of interest to acquire PalmSource at prices in the range of $12.25 to $12.75 per share in cash.


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On August 19, 2005, the committee met with PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview and the outside consultant to the committee to review the status of the process being conducted by Jefferies Broadview and the indications of interest received from ACCESS Co. and Nokia.


On August 20, 2005, Palm provided its initial indication of interest to acquire PalmSource at a price of $11.00 per share in half cash and half stock.


On August 21, 2005, PalmSource’s board of directors held a special meeting at which PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview, representatives of Howard Rice and the outside consultant were present to discuss the status of the process and the initial indications of interest received from the three potential bidders. Howard Rice advised the board with respect to its fiduciary obligations with respect to a transaction of the type proposed by the indications of interest and the standard of care that would have to be satisfied under Delaware law in meeting those obligations. Based on the initial indications of interest that had been received from ACCESS Co. and Nokia and taking into consideration PalmSource’s prospects as a stand-alone entity, the board of directors decided it was in the best interests of the stockholders of PalmSource to continue the process and to provide ACCESS Co. and Nokia with the opportunity to conduct broader diligence on PalmSource. The board of directors determined that Palm's bid was not competitive with the other bids and directed Jefferies Broadview to inform Palm that it would not be allowed into the next stage of the process based on its current bid. In addition, PalmSource directed Howard Rice to begin preparation of a draft merger agreement to present to the bidders.


On August 21, 2005, at the direction of the board of directors, Jefferies Broadview contacted Palm and informed Palm that it would not be included in the next stage of the process because its initial indication of interest was not competitive. On August 24, 2005, Palm provided a revised initial indication of interest at a price of $13.00 per share and on August 25, 2005, Palm was provided the opportunity to conduct broader diligence on PalmSource.


Following the August 21, 2005 PalmSource special board meeting, at the direction of the board of directors, Jefferies Broadview contacted two additional companies, a communications technology company and a network computing company, to gauge their interest in a potential strategic transaction with PalmSource. Both of these companies subsequently indicated that they were not interested in pursuing a transaction.


During the period beginning August 22, 2005, with respect to ACCESS Co. and Nokia, and beginning August 25, 2005, with respect to Palm, through September 6, 2005, the bidders met with members of PalmSource’s senior management, members of the committee and the outside consultant and conducted in depth diligence on the business, technology, operations and financial condition of PalmSource. A draft merger agreement was provided to each of the three bidders during this period. Counsel for each of the bidders and representatives of Howard Rice exchanged drafts of the merger agreement and negotiated with respect to the terms of each of the three proposed merger agreements, including terms related to the potential structures for the transaction, treatment of employee equity incentives and the scope and content of the disclosure schedules.


On September 5, 2005, ACCESS Co., Nokia and Palm provided bids to acquire PalmSource at prices in the range of $13.00 to $14.00 per share. ACCESS Co. and Nokia proposed all cash transactions, and Palm proposed a half cash and half stock transaction.


On September 5, 2005, the committee met with PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview, representatives of Howard Rice and the outside consultant to review and consider the three bids. The committee directed Jefferies Broadview to instruct the three bidders to provide final bids on September 7, 2005.


On September 6, 2005, the committee and PalmSource’s senior management met with members of Nokia's senior management. At this meeting, Nokia presented its strategy if the proposed strategic transaction were to proceed and Nokia acquired PalmSource.


13


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On September 6, 2005, PalmSource’s senior management and Jefferies Broadview held meetings with senior management of Palm to conduct diligence on the bidder’s business and financial condition given that Palm was offering stock as a part of the consideration for the transaction.


On September 6, 2005, PalmSource’s board of directors held a special meeting at which PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview, representatives of Howard Rice and the outside consultant were present to discuss the status of discussions with ACCESS Co., Nokia and Palm and to review their bids. There was extensive discussion about the transactions proposed by the three bidders, the different structures and consideration being offered, the risks and benefits of each structure and the financial condition of each of the three bidders.


On September 7, 2005, ACCESS Co., Nokia and Palm provided revised bids to acquire PalmSource in the range of $15.00 to $15.90 per share. The proposed nature of the consideration being offered by the three bidders remained unchanged from the initial bids.


On September 7, 2005, PalmSource’s board of directors held a special meeting at which PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview, representatives of Howard Rice and the outside consultant were present to review the revised bids to acquire PalmSource. Further discussion was held about the proposed transaction and the relative risks and benefits of proceeding with each bidder. During the board meeting, PalmSource received increased bids from ACCESS Co. and Nokia and discussed with all three bidders the prospects of obtaining higher offers. Palm did not increase its bid during the meeting. ACCESS Co.’s last and highest bid to acquire PalmSource was for $17.00 per share in an all-cash transaction. The last and highest bid from Nokia to acquire PalmSource was for $17.25 per share in an all-cash transaction, conditioned on completion of merger agreement negotiations and execution of a definitive agreement prior to the opening of market the next day. The board of directors concluded that Nokia had made the highest bid and Jefferies Broadview delivered its oral opinion that, as of September 7, 2005, based on and subject to certain assumptions, qualifications, limitations and factors, the $17.25 in cash per share to be received by holders of PalmSource common stock was fair, from a financial point of view, to holders of PalmSource common stock. Howard Rice summarized legal and contractual issues relating to the proposed transaction, including the status of the merger agreement, the disclosure schedule and closing conditions to which the transaction would be subject. PalmSource’s board of directors then informed Nokia that it had authorized its senior management and counsel to proceed on the basis of the $17.25 per share bid, conditioned on completion of merger agreement and disclosure schedule negotiations and execution of a definitive agreement.


After the September 7, 2005 special board meeting, negotiations continued between counsel for Nokia and Howard Rice concerning the terms of a definitive merger agreement and the related disclosure schedule.


Very shortly after the September 7, 2005 special board meeting, ACCESS Co. submitted to PalmSource by e-mail an unsolicited increased offer to acquire PalmSource for $18.50 per share in an all-cash transaction. Mr. Gassée, members of PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview, representatives of Howard Rice and the outside consultant then discussed this higher offer. It was determined that a special board meeting needed to be convened on September 8, 2005 to consider the higher offer. Jefferies Broadview was directed to inform the financial advisor to Nokia that a higher offer had been received and that the PalmSource board of directors was reviewing the higher offer. Through the night of September 7, 2005 and into the morning of September 8, 2005, representatives of Howard Rice continued to negotiate the terms of definitive merger agreements and disclosure schedules with counsel to ACCESS Co. and counsel to Nokia.


On September 8, 2005, PalmSource received a letter from Nokia demanding that PalmSource enter into an agreement with Nokia based on the $17.25 price. ACCESS Co. was apprised of the receipt of that letter.


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On September 8, 2005, PalmSource’s board of directors convened a special meeting at which PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview, representatives of Howard Rice and the outside consultant were present to discuss the ACCESS Co. $18.50 bid and the demand letter from Nokia. Howard Rice again advised the board with respect to its fiduciary obligations. The board of directors directed management to continue negotiations of the terms of the definitive merger agreements and disclosure schedules with ACCESS Co. and with Nokia. The board of directors adjourned the meeting and set a time for reconvening later that day.


During the adjournment of the September 8, 2005, special board meeting, at the direction of the board of directors, Jefferies Broadview contacted ACCESS Co. to have ACCESS Co. confirm its bid at $18.50 and Howard Rice continued to negotiate with counsel to ACCESS Co. and with counsel to Nokia the terms of definitive merger agreements and disclosure schedules.


Later on September 8, 2005, PalmSource’s board of directors reconvened and was presented with the terms of the definitive merger agreement and disclosure schedule that had been negotiated with ACCESS Co. PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview and representatives of Howard Rice were present when the board reconvened. Jefferies Broadview discussed the financial capability of ACCESS Co. to close the transaction. Howard Rice summarized legal and contractual issues relating to the proposed transaction with ACCESS Co., including closing conditions to which the transaction would be subject. Jefferies Broadview reviewed its financial analysis of the merger consideration proposed in the ACCESS Co. transaction. Jefferies Broadview then rendered its oral opinion, subsequently confirmed in writing, that, as of September 8, 2005, based on and subject to certain assumptions, qualifications, limitations and factors described in the Jefferies Broadview opinion, the $18.50 in cash per share, as such amount may be adjusted in accordance with the merger agreement, to be received by holders of PalmSource common stock pursuant to the merger agreement was fair, from a financial point of view, to such holders. During the course of the meeting, representatives of Nokia contacted Jefferies Broadview to inform Jefferies Broadview that Nokia was prepared to discuss an offer that was above their last offer price but was still below ACCESS Co.’s offer. This information was communicated to the board of directors, but no further bid was made by Nokia. By the unanimous vote of directors present at the time of the vote, PalmSource’s board, among other things, duly approved the merger agreement with ACCESS Co. as being in the best interests of the stockholders of PalmSource and directed that the merger agreement be submitted to PalmSource’s stockholders for adoption at the annual meeting with the recommendation of the board that PalmSource’s stockholders adopt the merger agreement at the annual meeting. During the special meeting, PalmSource entered into the merger agreement with ACCESS Co.


Following the special meeting and later that evening, the transaction was publicly announced in both Japan and the United States and, on September 9, 2005, PalmSource filed a Form 8-K with the SEC describing the transaction.


Other Recent Events


On September 13, 2005, Nokia submitted a letter to PalmSource demanding payment of $8,697,595 and stating that Nokia intended to file a complaint against PalmSource in Delaware Chancery Court for New Castle County if the payment was not made by September 16, 2005. The letter enclosed a copy of a draft complaint against PalmSource alleging a claim for breach of contract. In the letter and in the draft complaint, Nokia generally alleged the following: (i) PalmSource and Nokia entered into a purported merger agreement, (ii) PalmSource elected not to proceed with the purported merger agreement with Nokia, and (iii) PalmSource must pay Nokia $8,697,595 in connection with a termination provision in the purported merger agreement. In a letter to Nokia dated September 16, 2005, PalmSource denied all of Nokia's allegations and maintained that PalmSource did not enter into a definitive merger agreement with Nokia. On September 20, 2005, Nokia sent a response to PalmSource’s September 16, 2005 letter stating that Nokia would withhold further action until at least October 1, 2005.

**************************************************************************


I'm surprised Colligan was smiling so much at the press conference seeing how Beelzebub Gates just ****** him up the ***. Ouch!



Fo' shizzle ma bizzle

RE: Unbelievable
zireuser @ 9/26/2005 5:47:29 PM # Q
WHY!
WHY!
WHY!
WHY THE **** IS PALM POWERING THEIR NEXT DEVICE WITH WINDOWS!
*goes into corner and starts rocking, looking crazy*

DOWN WITH MICROSOFT!
RE: Unbelievable
joad @ 9/26/2005 6:46:14 PM # Q
...because they are acknowledging that they are unable to properly produce a Palm-powered one?

RE: Unbelievable
arp @ 9/27/2005 1:36:04 PM # Q
That's a bit unfair, they have produced some very nice ones over the years, but they should have taken a few hints from sony too. (not the memstick though)

Where they missed out was the lack of wifi in most of their units when everyone else had it in their whole lineup.

--
http://www.arpx.net/article.php/top_10_palmos_applications - my top 10 palm apps

The Sky is Falling!! -- NOT!!
Palm_Otaku @ 9/27/2005 4:59:48 PM # Q
DON'T PANIC

The announcement is regarding the new licensing partnership. Palm is licensing Windows Mobile for ONE version of the next Treo (the "700w"). When the "700w" is officially released, expect to see a "700p" running PalmOS as well. Palm Inc. is NOT in the process of dropping PalmOS as a platform. Duh.

The logic is clear: There is a certain customer segment that is attracted to Windows Mobile, and Palm Inc. is broadening its product portfolio to try to acquire some of these customers. They have gained certain concessions from Microsoft so that they can add features to standard WinMob to differentiate their product vs. their competitors.

How this will play out will be interesting to see... (Hopefully we won't see a replay of the Sendo situation from 2003...!)

I also believe that the Ed's comment about "no additional platforms in the future" is being misconstrued by some people. While its reasonably safe to assume that there won't be any Symbian licensing announcements, PalmOnLinux is just the next-gen PalmOS.

Sorry to interrupt the FUDfest - back to you, Chicken Little.

Cheers,

Dan



RE: Unbelievable
SeldomVisitor @ 9/28/2005 6:25:09 AM # Q
PALM CEO said "no other operating systems". PalmLinux is another operating system.

There is no ambiguity about what is an OS and what is not.

PALM has to twiddle coonsiderably low-level OS stuff to get it to work - always has with the TREO line for sure.

I'll stick with my interpretation of his remarks.

RE: Unbelievable
cervezas @ 9/28/2005 7:49:28 AM # Q
There is no ambiguity about what is an OS and what is not.

Oh don't be dense. So there's no ambiguity about whether he considers Palm OS for Linux to be Palm OS or "another" OS? And your assumption is that Palm just needed to what? Bleed off some excess cash when it licensed the Palm OS through 2009?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Unbelievable
SeldomVisitor @ 9/28/2005 9:18:20 AM # Q
Yes, PalmOS for SURE is a VERY different animal from the purported PalmLinux. Are you saying the OS-parts of these are the SAME for Pete's Sake!?

If Colligan thinks PalmOS and PalmLinux are just slight variations on PalmOS then PALM is in bigger trouble thaan we suspect!

RE: Unbelievable
cervezas @ 9/28/2005 2:35:12 PM # Q
Yes, PalmOS for SURE is a VERY different animal from the purported PalmLinux. Are you saying the OS-parts of these are the SAME for Pete's Sake!?

Of course not. But you have to admit that there is some ambiguity as to whether "Palm OS" refers to "Palm OS for Linux" or not. Colligan's remark clearly excludes the possibility of Palm doing a Linux phone using the maemo or qTopia APIs, which don't have all the things that make Palm OS familiar (like the applications, PACE, HotSync, Exchange Manager, Palm Desktop, etc etc). But Palm OS for Linux will have all these defining elements, even if the kernel is different.

Palm is not going to say they are committed to Palm OS for Linux, because in the terms of their license renewal there is no such commitment implied. Just as they conditioned the collaboration with Microsoft on MS giving them room to innovate on top of the OS, there are clearly conditions for Palm's adoption of Palm OS for Linux (the milestones referred to in the agreement). And even if those conditions are met by PalmSource Palm could still decline to use the new Palm OS. They don't have anything you would call a "plan", then, but for several reasons I think it's reasonable to deduce that they are actively investigating it with significant staff and money.

The most reasonable way to reconcile the hiring of all those Linux engineers with Colligan's statement that they are not developing a Linux phone is by recognizing that:

(a) Colligan considers Palm OS for Linux to be more "Palm OS" than whatever he means by "Linux" (which by the way is *not* an operating system), and

(b) Palm thinks Palm OS for Linux is worth investing some R&D in.

Here are how the job descriptions for several positions currently on the Palm site start out:

"Linux Engineer, Mobile Handset....As a Linux Engineer, you will play a key role in the architecture, design and implementation of enabling technologies for a new generation of Palm devices."

"Senior Linux Software Engineer....As the Senior Software Engineer, you will play a key role in the architecture, design and implementation of enabling technologies for a new generation of Palm devices."

Several other positions require

"Significant project experience developing software for Palm OS or UNIX/Linux"

or

1 year of experience in developing or testing device drivers (Linux preferably)

Maybe you can, but I don't know how to make sense of this except to conclude they are actively investigating Palm OS for Linux as a future smartphone platform.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

The Palm/Windows bastard

adamsmark @ 9/26/2005 12:39:57 PM # Q
Well, there it is, emblazened on Palm's website: the Windows-based Treo. Can't say this is a bad thing for Palm. It expands their market and reaches business types who use the Windows platform. What I want to know is this: how does this news bode for Palm OS enthusiasts? I've tried Pocket PC, and liked the Palm OS better (not that Pocket PC was bad, though). Splitting Palm into two seperate businesses didn't make a whole lot of sense until this news came out.

Is this the end of the Palm OS?

At least you get G1 with Pocket PC.

Palm helped design WM5! No Linux or Symbian Treo!
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 12:59:10 PM # Q
From the webcast. They were planning a WM Treo even before WM5, and their engineers apparently worked together.

He also denied any Symbian or Linux Treo.

Surur

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 1:20:21 PM # Q
> ...Linux Treo...

What does this say about The Next Great Thing outta ACCESS/PSRC?

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
Permanent4 @ 9/26/2005 1:53:21 PM # Q
What I want to know is this: how does this news bode for Palm OS enthusiasts?

You might as well ask a Yankees fan how he felt about the Red Sox winning the World Series last year.

-David


Visit me on the web at
http://www.permanent4.com/

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 1:54:56 PM # Q
Well, they certainly couldn't be planning another Treo with Garnet. So that leaves... hmmm...

How about OS 4.1 with a nice, high-contrast monochrome screen, AA cells and Graffiti 1!

Or maybe they renewed their license purely as a sentimental gesture toward PalmSource. Shareholders love that kind of thing.

Boy, it's hard to say.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
DevPOV @ 9/26/2005 2:04:34 PM # Q
Not so. As a developer I find writing applications for Windows Mobile to be faster than C on the Palm. The apps themselves seem to be fuller featured due to the higher level languages I use on WinMob. I dont really care what PDA is on top as long as I can write and sell software for it.

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 2:21:31 PM # Q
DevPOV wrote:
Not so. As a developer I find writing applications for Windows Mobile to be faster than C on the Palm. The apps themselves seem to be fuller featured due to the higher level languages I use on WinMob. I dont really care what PDA is on top as long as I can write and sell software for it.

Not sure what that was in response to, but I agree that it's faster and easier to develop .NET applications than Palm OS C API apps if you don't have a good bag of tricks already assembled for doing Palm development.

If you want a high-level language with object-orientation and good access to the underlying system you should take a look at SuperWaba, though. You can use any Java development environment (like Eclipse) then sell your apps to both Palm and Windows Mobile users (as well as Linux and Symbian Series 80).


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
relyons @ 9/26/2005 2:55:25 PM # Q
DevPOV,

From my experiences, the Palm OS constistently wins the best user experience award over Windows Mobile applications. The user interface is the only aspect that truly matters.

I am a contractor for a large healthcare technologies company. Our contracting team developed a Palm OS client (CodeWarrior C++) and employees developed the Windows Mobile client (.NET and SQL Server CE) of a handheld application for hospitals.

The Palm OS client starts instantaneously, completes form transitions in less than a second, uses custom drawing in table controls to ensure neat row/column displays and fully supports five-way navigation and rectangular (portrait/landscape) screen displays.

The Windows Mobile client takes five to ten seconds TO START, completes form transitions in one to five seconds, creates jagged and improperly sized rows and columns in its “automatic” table control and does not support five-way navigation or portrait/landscape screen layouts.

However, in the interest of full disclosure, this Palm OS developer of five years started learning Windows Mobile and .NET Compact Framework development last week. After Colligan and company effectively announced the death of the Palm OS today, I have a lot of catching up to do. My first challenge will be making Windows Mobile applications that match or beat the user interface experience and performance of Palm OS applications. It's a tall order...

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 3:37:18 PM # Q
Most of my business customers still prefer Palm OS over Windows Mobile, too (and we give them the choice because we develop on both platforms). And for vertical market applications they don't necessarily go for smartphones over PDAs, either. It's changing, but we still see most of our customers interested in cradle-sync solutions rather than wireless since the ROI from wireless is still not there for so many business applications.

So that's two checks against the Windows Mobile Treo with the kind of business clients my company writes custom applications for.

The average PIC poster screams that "Palm OS is dead" but what they're really saying is that they think they won't get the Palm OS device that they want in the future. So they project this to the whole diverse market. It's understandable.

Relyons, your company's experience with .NET Compact Framework matches mine. .NET is a very productive development environment, but managed code exacts a performance penalty that can be objectionable to people who are used to Palm OS. Of course, the newer Palm devices aren't as fast as they used to be, thanks in large part to Palm's implementation of NVFS. Also I've seen the specs on Windows Mobile 5.0 and it looks like they've done a lot to improve performance of managed code. So unfortunately I don't think snappy performance in business applications is a selling point for Palm OS anymore.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
Lucky Bob @ 9/26/2005 9:02:30 PM # Q
Go to ebay and search the word "SL10."

(Why do some people say you can kill two birds with one stone when it's hard enough killing one bird with two stones?)
RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
Altema @ 9/27/2005 1:49:28 PM # Q
I'm not a developer, but can appreciate the desire to use a more productive programming language. However as an end user, I have lost more sleep dealing with windows issues than anything else in life, including marriage, work, and kids. The last thing I want is to take all that baggage that gives me more headaches than joy, and make it my constant pocket companion. I keep my Palm because it's my friend, not a thorn in the side. That being said, I won't be looking at any WM apps for a long time.

RE: The Palm/Windows bastard
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 2:12:26 PM # Q
The last thing I want is to take all that baggage that gives me more headaches than joy, and make it my constant pocket companion.

You are describing many people's LifeDrive experience. Do you know what the recommended procedure for upgrading to a LifeDrive is. First you need to delete your backup folder, and then install software one at a time, run if for a few days to assess stability, and then add the next piece of software. Rinse and repeat. Also keep a backup of your preference database on a storage card, as these are prone to disappearing. Two weeks later, once you have run out of your return period it will lock up and die. Return your paperweight to Palm. Start over again.

Surur

Reply to this comment

The Beginning of the End

Mr T @ 9/26/2005 12:57:07 PM # Q
I can't help but feel like this is the beginning of the end for Palm OS. That's too bad...

RE: The Beginning of the End
attas @ 9/26/2005 1:19:19 PM # Q
Yes, I agree with you. Farewell all of those years with PalmOS since my USR Personal.

I just feel like we were portrayed by Palm.



RE: The Beginning of the End
halcyon @ 9/26/2005 1:25:52 PM # Q
Washington Post Review of WM 5.0

"For now, Palm remains the simpler, faster choice. But if Microsoft keeps plugging away, that won't be the case forever."

There still is time for Access to save the platform. Their buyout will let this fight go on for a while longer, I hope.

It is this fight (drama sometimes), and the hope for something better that makes following mobile OS world so fun.

Reply to this comment

How could the demo have gone wrong?

SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 1:16:33 PM # Q
I simply do NOT understand how SUCH an important demonstration could have been allowed to be ANYTHING but ENTIRELY FOOLPROOF scripted!

First there is a "connection issue" so the realtime radio part is OVERTLY canned, then ACTUAL phone numbers are one the screens!

Unbelievable, even to someone who is an admitted PALM-pessimist (I could NEVER have imagined ANY errors being allowed to crop up).

RE: How could the demo have gone wrong?
EdH @ 9/26/2005 1:24:47 PM # Q
The connection thing bothered me too. I saw the single dot under the antenna icon and knew there was a problem before he got to the radio demo.

As for the numbers, it was to allow them to call/SMS each other on the stage, like Ed's call to the demo guy. I am sure those numbers will be thrown away by the end of the day. It did provide some amusement though to see audience members SMS'ing questions.

RE: How could the demo have gone wrong?
T_W @ 9/26/2005 2:09:12 PM # Q
>I simply do NOT understand how SUCH an important demonstration
>could have been allowed to be ANYTHING but ENTIRELY FOOLPROOF
>scripted!

Easy, it was running on a modern PalmOne device running a Microsoft operating system.

Welcome to the new smartphone market.

RE: How could the demo have gone wrong?
InsGuy @ 9/27/2005 12:03:32 PM # Q
"Easy, it was running on a modern PalmOne device running a Microsoft operating system.

Welcome to the new smartphone market."

EXACTLY!



All good things...

Reply to this comment

So...

The Turtle @ 9/26/2005 1:20:59 PM # Q
Need a smartphone?

From this point on, if you have Mac or Linux you won't!
ActiveSync only works with Windows (to my knowledge)...

If palm is going to abandon palm os for all it's handhelds, then that makes Linux and Mac users who need PDAs being forced into Windows. Brilliant.

I wouldn't have a problem if:

1. ActiveSync comes out for more OSes
-or-
2. WM was guaranteed to stay on the treo line

I don't use Linux or Mac, but I sure don't want to see them die out, neither.



Still waiting for Cobalt...Garnet 5.99999999999999999999999 will not cut it in 2006.

RE: So...
joad @ 9/26/2005 1:36:07 PM # Q
Next year's innovation O' the year on the Palm: MS-DOS! (At least it'll have appropriate RAM to handle it).

RE: So...
GenericMan @ 9/26/2005 4:05:53 PM # Q
http://www.markspace.com/missingsync_windowsmobile.php

The Missing Sync lets Macs talk to Windows Mobile devices. It's not free, but it reportedly works (and it's actually supported by a company that cares about the Mac platform).

RE: So...
rkevwill @ 9/26/2005 5:00:57 PM # Q
Yep, agree with Generic here. I have used Active Sync on an Ipaq I own, from time to time for updates, but MissingSync for PPC on the mac, does all I need on the PPC. And, it will get nothing but better. MarkSpace (missingsync) is totally committed to the mac platform.

RE: So...
AdamaDBrown @ 9/26/2005 7:13:26 PM # Q
For syncing a Mac to a WM device, there's also PocketMac as an alternative to MissingSync.

RE: So...
ChiA @ 9/26/2005 7:47:59 PM # Q
If palm is going to abandon palm os for all it's handhelds, then that makes Linux and Mac users who need PDAs being forced into Windows. Brilliant.

Palm (formerly PalmOne) isn't the one to blame; PalmSource started the ball rolling by stating Cobalt wouldn't support Mac synchronisation:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6547

so if Palm had released a Cobalt powered PDA it wouldn't be able to sync out of the box with a Mac; you'd be in the same position as someone with WinMob where you'd need third party software to sync info between Mac and PDA.

I remember Palm (formerly PalmOne) promised to bundle such software with their Cobalt PDAs to enable them to sync with OS X despite PalmSource's lack of effort in the area. Of course we don't have any Cobalt PDAs to see if it would have worked!

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: So...
Altema @ 9/27/2005 2:02:39 PM # Q
Does Missingsync for WM devices allow more than one device per computer?

Syncing multiple WM Devices with Missing Sync
ChiA @ 9/30/2005 3:11:07 PM # Q
it can sync more than one device per computer but it has a tedious way of doing it; you have to set up an admin account for each PocketPC device you wish to sync. More details here:

http://www.markspace.com/support/index.php?mod_id=2&id=2462&kb_rating=5

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Reply to this comment

Death of FrankenGarnet?

Gekko @ 9/26/2005 1:32:47 PM # Q

"Garnet oughta be good enough for anybody."

RE: Death of FrankenGarnet?
Masamune @ 9/27/2005 5:42:23 AM # Q
Ha! Good one.

Reply to this comment

ok.

joad @ 9/26/2005 1:16:53 PM # Q
Whoop-dee-do, Palm.

If you couldn't get it together to put out an appropriate PalmOS (or whatever the name is now) improvement of the Treo, what makes you think your chances will be with that godawful Windows Mobile OS?

Less than one year ago we were treated to the Treo 650, complete with 40-60% LESS effective RAM than it's predecessor. About 6 months later you finally released a firmware hack that essentially offered about 90% of what was possible with the Treo 600. Here it is 3 months later and you are already on to releasing a completely different model, running a completely different operating system.

How about getting a decent PALM OS device out the door before moving on to releasing yet another buggy device (with yet ANOTHER operating system) for users to betatest for you? Put down the crack pipes and spend some time doing some continual improvement of your hardware rather than continual spinning of the facts. Your customers are getting dizzy, poorer and more frustrated trying to forgive you.

Coming soon.... Apple Phone/PDA
dacreativeguy @ 9/26/2005 1:47:41 PM # Q
Now that Palm OS has been sold off to an obscure Japanese company to die, the PDA market will be the exclusive domain of Microsoft. Looks like the perfect time for Apple to jump in with its own communicator device. The recent Motorola iTunes phone was obviously a "get our feet wet" device so that Apple could learn the ropes of cell phones. Now they will perfect the next version in house and the result will most likely be stunning. I can't wait!

RE: ok.
joad @ 9/26/2005 6:59:12 PM # Q
Apple refuses to put an FM tuner into the iPod, an intentional oversight that makes me have to haul along a separate device if I want to get the news AND listen to my music. I think their user controls are nearly perfect, but I wonder how much they would compromise on a PDA in service of pure visual asthetics. The iPod model applied to a PDA would leave us with devices that are designed to be scratched up within a day of use, require us to DRM the thing to sync only to ONE computer, maybe even have LESS memory than the paltry amount Palm uses.... But it'll look pretty before you open that shrinkwrap - be sure of that.

RE: ok.
ChiA @ 9/27/2005 4:46:23 AM # Q
intentional oversight
That's an oxymoron, don't you mean intentional omission?

require us to DRM the thing to sync only to ONE computer
For the record Apple's iSync allows you to sync your calendar and address book across several devices simultaneousy be they Palms, mobiles or other Macs. With a .Mac account you can even sync your weblinks across many different Macs all without any DRM interference. Why should DRM be applied to your own data unless you want it to be?

I think it's unlikely Apple will enter the mobile/smartphone market as it's already a pretty cut-throat market now.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Reply to this comment

Story of a Failure - Epilogue

hobbes1257 @ 9/26/2005 1:38:01 PM # Q

Well, Palm[Source|One] wasn't able to produce a decent OS after Garnet (a shame), and Windows won in the end. In my opinion, they don't drop Garnet already because it fits nice on cheap handhelds, a market in which Palm still has a position.

I honestly thhink that Palm wants to go Linux, but they needed desperately to ship Windows devices until they are ready (a couple of years).

I'm not likely to buy a winmob device (i get nervous whenever i use one), but I'm still sticking with palm...

RE: Story of a Failure - Epilogue
hkklife @ 9/26/2005 1:53:13 PM # Q
For right now, the PDA line is going to take a decidedly lower-end curve (thing TE2-style devices & prices) for which, ironically, "Garnet is (almost) good enough". The Palm-powered Treos probably have one or two more incremental updates running Garnet left but expect the WinMob Treo to get the lion's share of sales.

By this time (spring '07 or so) we should know of Plinux is a viable alternative. Palm will then either make a serious renewed push with PLinux or else throw in the towel completely and let themselves be acquired, having let their lineup fade away to a two WinMob Treos and a few super low-end Palm-based cheapo PDAs.

Reply to this comment

Future of Palm OS Questionable at Best

acmorton @ 9/26/2005 1:58:16 PM # Q
Like most of you, I've very concerned about the future of the Palm OS. I'm currently on my 4th Palm device (LifeDrive). Unfortunately Palm/PalmSource stumbled too many times, and now that the OS is owned by ACCESS (an obscure company at best at least in the U.S), I have serious doubts that many more Palm OS devices well emerge after 2006. Who knows, maybe MS will work closely with Palm to truly refine Windows Mobile and have a really good product to release with Windows Mobile 6.0?

Reply to this comment

An Open Letter to PalmOne

T_W @ 9/26/2005 1:54:53 PM # Q
Dear PalmOne,

I have been a customer of your organizers for 9 years going back to the original Pilot 500. In 1996, I was writing software to run on and with Magic Cap handheld devices. The Palm Pilot was the first handheld device to get it right combining unrivaled pocket-ability, seamless synchronization, staggering CPU and memory efficiency, reliability, and the ability to support three
months of heavy use using only two standard batteries.

It was a tour-de-force of innovation, product design, and engineering. It was one of those breakthroughs that happen all so rarely in the morass of a tech market dominated by a single tired, unimaginative, uninventive and highly derivative monopolist. It opened up the endless possibilities of having a
computer and mobile personal database at one's constant disposal.

In light of today's events, I have one message for you...

Go **** yourself.

P.S. Rationalize it all you want, but in the English language, we have a name for those who lose a competition.... LOSERS.

P.P.S. Does anyone know how to get 9 years of info out of Palm Desktop? Damn proprietary file formats.

RE: An Open Letter to PalmOne
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 2:11:45 PM # Q

"P.P.S. Does anyone know how to get 9 years of info out of Palm Desktop? Damn proprietary file formats."

Pocketmirror and sync with Microsoft Outlook? Outlook 2002 comes with the new Treo ;)

Surur

RE: An Open Letter to PalmOne
T_W @ 9/26/2005 2:15:33 PM # Q
I've tried to use Outlook as a PIM several times. Always went back to Palm Desktop.

If I wanted a piece of sh*t thrown at me, I'd go to the chimp cage at the zoo.

RE: An Open Letter to PalmOne
cnegrad @ 9/26/2005 2:27:51 PM # Q
I'm using Entourage on my Mac, and I'm starting to think that I'm really screwed for the future; particularly if the Tx is as unstable as the Lifedrive. Palm is completely out of their minds.

-cnegrad
RE: An Open Letter to PalmOne
hkklife @ 9/26/2005 2:47:25 PM # Q
The (patched) T5 is much more stable than the LD. Still not a T3 or a T|C but significantly better. I expect that the year in between the T5's launch and the TX's has been put to use trying to optimize FrankenGarnet for NVFS and make sure that wi-fi & Bluetooth play together nicely.

I'm expecting the TX to be as stable or perhaps a tad more so than the T5 with comparable performance--slower CPU, yes, but optimized routines for NVFS will make up for it in everything but all-out video playback.

If there's not another Palm-based Treo in the works, then the TX might be the final gasp of POS. $299.99 makes for a price point where some of us can even stockpile a few for future use!

Also, I always look for some sliver of a silver lining in any negative news. The good part here is that this move finally shows that Verizon (my carrier) is serious about being more aggressive about having "nifty" exclusive phones and being Sprint to the punch. Now bring on the CDMA RAZR!

RE: An Open Letter to PalmOne
Khris @ 9/26/2005 8:53:25 PM # Q
Reading your "Open Letter" whine was just as effective as standing at the monkey cage dodging piles of flaming s.....

Palm has obviously realized that the old saying is true... "If you can't beat them, join them".


Palm has just told us all to go **** ourselves. Thanks, guys
Snoop_Doggy_Dogg @ 9/26/2005 9:08:21 PM # Q
Reading your "Open Letter" whine was just as effective as standing at the monkey cage dodging piles of flaming s.....

A lot of developers just got splattered with some flaming sh** this morning. (The ones that "moved too slow" and haven't already ported their applications to Windows Mobile yet.)

I loved the part where Colligan says Palm has been working on a Windows Treo for "years". Yeah - I feel like an idiot for having supported Palm for the past 5 years! Thanks Ed.

I hope Palm's stock price keeps dropping once people realize that Palm will never be able to compete on a LEVEL playing field with the likes of Dell, HP, and all those other Windows Mobile companies.

I wonder if Palm actually thinks their Windows Mobile Treo life preserver will keep them afloat long enough for Palm Linux to arrive?


Fo' shizzle ma bizzle

Reply to this comment

1src's continuing irrelevance

sr4 @ 9/26/2005 2:09:41 PM # Q

No official posts on the new Treo. One thread with no replies.

Surur

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
PDAJah @ 9/26/2005 4:58:36 PM # Q
And.....

Jah
RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 5:19:45 PM # Q
PIC is a mere shadow of what it used to be, and is sliding ever deeper into irrelevence. 1SRC and Brighthand are the best Palm discussion boards around, and Palm Addict is tops for news.

Jeff Kirvin
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=855343#post855343

Funny, but 1src has less page views per day, is less frequently visited per day, and less linked to by other sites. And now they are not reporting on the greatest development in POS history.

Jeff just continues to be wrong, doesn't he. Yet he evokes worship by 1src kiddies such as Jimmie Geddes, Associate Writer at PalmAddict (the kitten picture site) such as this:

This is so Palm users don't feel left out with the whole Windows Mobile Treo, I am re-posting a quote from Jeff Kirvin that I received Friday: "All I'll say for now: There will be a Treo 700p. It will be more impressive than the 700w. " I believe this will happen, and it will happen soon (lets let Windows Mobile users have their moment). Palm users please note his last sentence:) Thanks again Jeff for the inside scoop.

Jimmie Geddes
http://www.gadgetsonthego.net

Some-one should really think of the children, and protect them from Jeff's pernicious influence.

Surur

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 7:42:15 PM # Q
OT: Non-Palm OS PDAs: Palm and Microsoft Join to Bring the Palm Experience to Windows Mobile (1) by Joel

One post (and that also by Joe). I guess if you wanted to discuss the WM developments you have to come to the "irrelevant Palminfocenter".

See no Evil, Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil - 1src - keeping the POS faith

Surur

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:44:26 PM # Q

>PIC is a mere shadow of what it used to be, and is sliding ever deeper into irrelevence. 1SRC and Brighthand are the best Palm discussion boards around, and Palm Addict is tops for news. - Jeff Kirvin, 9-26-05, 03:47 PM

this is just petty, spiteful, and unprofessional - and not to mention false. kirvin should be ashamed of himself.



RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 8:15:24 PM # Q
See no Evil, Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil - 1src - keeping the POS faith

You're just as much of a "true believer" as they are, Surer. PALM shares lost almost a quarter of their value four days ago with the announcement that Colligan would share a stage with Gates and they continued to fall today. Where's your comment on that?



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
Gekko @ 9/27/2005 12:55:00 AM # Q

The silence is deafening over there at kiddie source. The kids and their scout leader are like deer caught in the headlights.

Plinux? I think not.



RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
twrock @ 9/27/2005 9:53:52 AM # Q
I noticed that things have really slowed down over at the PocketBlog as well: http://pocketblog.com/

(If it is so irrelevant, why do you obsess about it so?)

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 10:07:46 AM # Q

I've never heard of pocketblog before, but I guess its appropriate as 1src is on its way to a similar level of obscurity.

Having been banned from 1src for simply telling the truth (they prefer illusion to despair there) I have a right to obsess as much as I like.

Anyway, its amusing to expose the wooly thinking and pathetic reasoning of their prophets pundits. I thought the Monday editorial this week was particulaly weak in its attempt to explain why a WM5 Treo was the best thing ever for PalmOS.

Surur

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
hkklife @ 9/27/2005 10:11:00 AM # Q
I find it especially interesting/chilling that after a sloooow summer, the Palm rumor mill really got cranked up over the past few weeks only to come to a spectacular crashing halt upon the VZW/M$/Palm press conference announcement. There have been, oh, just 3 or 4 new comments made (as I type this) to the TX and Z22 story since Saturday or so.

Palm (again) make the error of leaving their current customers out in the cold by failing to show ANY signs of commitment to POS. At the very least, they could have issued a press release today announcing the new units (it'd not like they haven't already been leaked all over the web), that a comprehensive LifeDrive patch was forthcoming, and that they are hanging in there with POS and going to support two OSes. A 700p announcement would be even nicer but that's pretty far from likely in my book.

If NOTHING else and at the very minimum, I figure Palm has at leat one more POS Treo refresh up its sleeve...if for no other reason than to get EVDO support onboard and to have a unit w/ the new branding.

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
svrontis @ 9/27/2005 1:01:25 PM # Q
Don't flatter yourselves. Most of the people who post here have the same mindset as those at 1src.com. In each case, we have a bunch of hapless geeks who don't have a clue about the real world. The only difference is that that PIC tolerates more guerilla marketing (ie, 'astroturfing' or 'trolling' as some of you fools call it).

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
svrontis @ 9/27/2005 1:11:01 PM # Q
PS. Look at you all. Little old Palm does a deal so as to try to make a profit* and what's the reaction here? Some of you are ready to slash your limp-wrists & the other half are gloating as if they had each scored the winning touchdown at the Super Bowl.

The really amusing thing is that so many of you don't have a clue about the real world. This completely warps your perspectives and leads you into blind alleys - yet you spout your pathetic views as if they meant something.

Get a grip.

* Footnote: Isn't that the most beautiful word in the English language?

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 1:34:29 PM # Q

Hey svrontis, stop castigating us. Why don't you give us the benefit of your wonderful real world experience. Is it simply

God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change...
Courage to change the things I can
& Wisdom to know the difference..

or do actually have any insight to contribute?

Surur

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
E Ben G @ 9/27/2005 2:40:44 PM # Q
"I thought the Monday editorial this week was particulaly weak in its attempt to explain why a WM5 Treo was the best thing ever for PalmOS." - sr4

I suppose everyone tries to look at the world around them in a way that jives with their preferences. But Kirvin's BS 'logic' reaches a level of denial that borders on a personality disorder.

If his house were burning down, he'd get online and blog, 'now that I think about it, it has been getting rather chilly outside.'



RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 2:53:28 PM # Q


RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 3:11:10 PM # Q
bquin said:
Anyway, I'm glad to read your positive spin. The PIC Forum is just filled with naysayers. I'm going to stop reading comments over there. They are too depressing.

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=855786#post855786

Some people, of course, are too fragile to face reality. 1src suits them perfectly.

Surur

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
svrontis @ 9/28/2005 12:22:14 AM # Q
> or do actually have any insight to contribute?

Yes, but I don't know where to begin.

As a starter, stop pressing your nose against a LCD screen for 16 hours a day and try reading some non-CS books. (I can give you an initial reading, but you probably can't bear the humiliation of learning how little you know.)

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
rcartwright @ 9/28/2005 11:52:36 PM # Q
I find the "we all hate Jeff Kirvin" circle jerk here endlessly amusing. Usually if I don't respect the views of someone I just cease having anything to do with that person. I do not read/listen to them every week so I have some new tidbit to complain about.

But then again, I have a life. I guess others do not. How sad.

You may now resume your pointless ranting.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
cervezas @ 9/29/2005 8:45:58 AM # Q
I find the "we all hate Jeff Kirvin" circle jerk here endlessly amusing. Usually if I don't respect the views of someone I just cease having anything to do with that person. I do not read/listen to them every week so I have some new tidbit to complain about.

Yeah, the Kirvin-stalking kinda creeps me out, too. And why they feel they have to report about their peculiar obsession here I'll never understand.

What's funny is that if you stop and think about it, Jeff has actually come to define (in a negative sort of way) the PIC culture. I almost get the impression that folks look to him for cues about how to comport themselves in manner that will be acceptable to the group here. ("Whatever you do, don't act like Jeff and make sure you make fun of him from time to time so people don't get the feeling you're... you know... ")

Say what you will about Jeff's optimism (which I admittedly often share), at least he thinks for himself. I sometimes wonder if that's the case with certain individuals on this forum.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
sr4 @ 9/29/2005 9:57:51 AM # Q

Jeff K. does not think for himself. His opinion is easy to predict. If Palm is doing it, it must be good. And if Palm thinks its good, he must not bad talk it. Its only when public opinion is overwhelmingly against him that he would dare to take a small snipe at Palm e.g. "treat your developers better and hire me to work the forums for you". He is completely immune to facts and will only admit to being wrong when events have overtaken him and shown him to be wrong. He was one of the last to admit that the WM Treo existed for example.

Jeff K. thinks he's qualified to be a Palm pundit by his years of experience as a PDA salesman at a retail store. Now this by itself is not very strange, many people are a bit grandiouse. The strange part is that the POS community accepts him as such, despite his biggest qualification being the size of his mouth. His track record of being right and being consistent is attrocious. This is a man who started of as a WM enthusiast, became a huge POS fanboy, and will soon now praise the goodness of the WM Treo. It reflects rather poorly on 1src and the POS community that they hold some-one like that in esteem.

Now there is a Cult of Jeff. The scary part is that its filled with children such as Jimmie, Dragonsgames and Legodude52. They look to him to tell them what to think, and then parrrot his views all over the internet. Jimmie is particulalrly sickening in his hero worship.

So if your views coincide with Jeff's I would make very sure that they are based on facts and not wishfull thinking, because thats where the bulk of hiis "original ideas" originate.

Surur

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
cervezas @ 9/29/2005 11:00:18 AM # Q
I'm not very interested in getting into a discussion about Jeff Kirvin's opinions. My comment was more about the fact that his detractors seem to be as slavish to him as the fans you are describing. He doesn't seem to be able to go to bathroom without us getting a report on it in this forum, coupled with some snide "nudge nudge wink wink" to the other members of the perpetually-convened Jeff Kirvin anti-fan club. What's with that? Almost seems like jealousy.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
Gekko @ 9/29/2005 12:23:09 PM # Q

beersie - let's not get carried away.

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
E Ben G @ 9/29/2005 2:03:20 PM # Q
HEY GUYS...nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Treo 700p on the way !!!
sr4 @ 9/29/2005 2:13:36 PM # Q
Kirvin says so!!!

Jimmie Geddes

I got a message from Jeff Krivin from 1src about the Treo 700p. He knew way too much about the Treo700 w, spec for spec before it came out. I believe him, and believe that we will have a Treo 700p. He sent me this message, and I posted it at my site on the Treo 700p.

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=96915

Surur

RE: 1src's continuing irrelevance
hkklife @ 9/29/2005 2:26:35 PM # Q
Those of us with long-term memories intact will recall that the i705 (Palm's first "real" wireless PDA--the hideous VII doesn't count) launched in Jan '02, after being delayed past the fall release schedule. Palm might be adopting a similar strategy for Treos, as they don't really fall into the gifts'n gadgets category that the regular PDA line does.

I can definitely see something like a simultaneous announcement of the 700w and 700p in January but with the "w" being available immediately at Verizon and the "p" version being available a few months later . Since the 700p is running an established Treo OS and will have, if nothing else, a more impressive screen than the 700w, it stands that VZW would want to 700w to have a head-start and gain sales on the M$ factor and the earlier availability instead of customers cross-shopping based on specs & prices.

Reply to this comment

@wheee.

orb2069 @ 9/26/2005 3:37:09 PM # Q
Does this mean the the WinCE trolls will now finally ****?

The only thing worse than being a poor loser is being a poor winner.

1000->Personal->IRUpgrade->TRGPro->HE330->Treo 180->270

RE: @wheee.
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 3:58:04 PM # Q

I cant figure out what goes in the 4 asterixes. Crow?

Surur

RE: @wheee.
hkklife @ 9/26/2005 4:01:08 PM # Q
****


I am sure we can all guess what that means...

RE: @wheee.
hkklife @ 9/26/2005 4:01:31 PM # Q
ARRGH!


S***T****F***U


is what I was trying to put in there. PIC's filter REALLY zaps everything!

RE: @wheee.
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 4:09:43 PM # Q
PIC's filter REALLY zaps everything!

I think I know who we have to thank for that.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: @wheee.
Khris @ 9/26/2005 9:02:46 PM # Q
No one likes to listen to mindless whining either.



Reply to this comment

PALM WINDOWS MOBILE TREO - ENTOURAGE - PALM DESKTOP MAC

palmstory @ 9/26/2005 4:20:47 PM # Q
I wonder how it would effect folk like me...

At present, I do all my PIM stuff on Palm Desktop (PD), and it works fine with my Tungsten T3.

But, I was hoping to transfer all my PD PIM stuff (Contacts, Calendar, Memo's/Notes, Task/To-Do's into Entourage 2004, which I am about to Install on my Powerbook 17, 1.76 MHz, Mac OS 10.4.2(all latest updates). That would replace my Office X, Entourage(10.1.4 - 030702) that I use for email only.

My thinking is that if I can get my PD stuff into Entourage 2004, then that should work with Palm Smart Phone, including WINDOWS MOBILE TREO, since MSFT is part of that...

I always loved having my Data on the go, which is why I love Palm PDA's... Hopefully Windows Mobile 5.0 platform will be as EASY to learn and live with as Palm OS.

Or maybe Palm is simply hedging it's bets, until that Japanese company, Access, that bought Palm OS (formerly known as PalmSource) will come out with a the NEXT BIG THING, like "Palm OS" on top of Linux, ala Apple's OSX on top of Linux, and then Palm (formerly PalmOne, formerly Palm!!!) will have it both ways?!?!

Or maybe Apple will come out with it's own thing?

The Bottom Line for me is to HAVE MY DATA ON THE GO 24/7/366 and being able to share/sync it with my COMPUTER... WHO'LL MAKE THE PRODUCT THAT WILL DO THAT IS SECONDARY...

Of course, if all that stuff integrates with my Mac:

Address Book, .Mac and Spotlight, that would be even better

-------------------
11-TIME GRAMMY WINNING SAXOPHONIST, MICHAEL BRECKER, URGENTLY NEEDS A DONOR
http://www.arkady.com/jfletter.html

RE: PALM WINDOWS MOBILE TREO - ENTOURAGE - PALM DESKTOP MAC
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 4:44:27 PM # Q
The Missing Sync for Windows Mobile


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Missing Sync for Windows Mobile provides Mac synchronization for Pocket PC and Smartphone devices from Dell, HP, i-Mate, Motorola, Orange, Samsung and others. The Missing Sync for Windows Mobile includes support for Mac OS X Tiger's Sync Services, Entourage synchronization and an all-new architecture that allows third-party developers to create plugins that add new capabilities.
Features - see the supported device list

• Support for Mac OS X Tiger
• Synchronize with Address Book & iCal
• Synchronize with Microsoft Entourage 2004
Contacts, Dates & Tasks
• Connect via USB cable/dock, Bluetooth or Wi-Fi
• Mount your Pocket PC on the Mac OS X Desktop
• Import/export images with iPhoto
• Send/receive email and surf the web *
• SyncMinder™ reminds you to sync
• Install Pocket PC apps in CAB format
• Includes AvantGo client *
• Includes SplashPhoto Viewer
• All-new user interface
• Plugin architecture supports future additions

* For Pocket PC devices only

http://www.markspace.com/missingsync_windowsmobile.php
Windows Mobile 5.0 devices are NOT currently supported; they will be supported with a free update.

Surur

Reply to this comment

WM killed Cobalt!

sr4 @ 9/26/2005 4:58:01 PM # Q

Palm and MS had been working on this phone for many years. When did Palm decide to go WM instead of Cobalt? 2004? 2003?

Is Cobalt really buggy, or is Cobalt just not Microsoft (which Verizon and business wanted)?

Surur

RE: WM killed Cobalt!
twizza @ 9/26/2005 5:41:10 PM # Q
The answer was said in the conference. Cobalt was not ready on time and the 6.1 fix wasnt a fix but a break. Another market MS wins on default I'd say.

Ironically, Palm could still release a Cobalt burning Treo and it would be a catcher's mitt of interest to a ton of folks. Especialyl if the driver and program issues could be sorted out.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: WM killed Cobalt!
joad @ 9/26/2005 7:07:42 PM # Q
Palm: Just release a PalmOS Treo 650x with 128MB RAM, BT1.2 and EVDO. How difficult can it be? Should have been done as soon as the major failures in the 650 were obvious - firmware is nice, but it only goes so far to make up for too little RAM.

Then Palm can get as silly as it wants destroying the company by diluting any sort of unifying ideas it once had. Where's that "Windows Mobile PocketPC Palm Treo" I heard about?

RE: WM killed Cobalt!
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:37:21 PM # Q

>MS wins on default

'Toine - well said!

WM killed Cobalt- The Smoking Gun
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 7:36:56 AM # Q
January 6, 2004: PalmSource releases Cobalt, or PalmOS 6 to its OEM partners. Cobalt is the ultimate Palm operating system. It will finally have real multitasking, or so we were told. Multitasking is achieved by rewriting all applications to save the state to the user is given the illusion of multitasking.

Cobalt must have stunk pretty badly because...

February 2004: Palm CEO Ed Colligan spent several days in Cannes talking up the Treo handheld computing device over its Windows-based competitors. But that same week, away from the massive 3GSM trade show, he was secretly meeting with the enemy.

At a nondescript Comfort Inn a short distance from the main conference center, Colligan and several Palm colleagues held a clandestine gathering with a team from Microsoft that was led by mobile unit head Pieter Knook. The groups took separate cabs to the hotel, met for several hours in a conference room, and then returned to the tech confab as though their rendezvous had never happened.

The secret meeting, to discuss business terms of a possible partnership, paved the way for the developers of the Palm operating system to join up with a company that had once been their fiercest rival.

http://news.com.com/A+tale+of+Treo+intrigue/2100-1047_3-5883320.html?part=rss&tag=5883320&subj=news

I suspect Bill did not court Ed, but other way around. POS's future was in tatters, and Ed needed a next-gen OS desperately.

Hello Windows Mobile....

Surur

Reply to this comment

It's not the end.

Daryl1234 @ 9/26/2005 5:11:35 PM # Q
Palm has not sold out on this one, although it amy seem so. Forget all of the fancy "Palm Speak" crap or whatever you want to call it. Palm sold a name and a gorgeous phone design. Microsoft is simply going to dump their software into it and, as a business man myself, the bottom line to this whole episode boils down to one thing. Money. Can you imagine Windows OS in a Life Drive, Tungsten or Zire? No. Microsoft has Dell, Compaq and other companies that they hire to design their handhelds.
This is a no brainer. So hold on to your Palm. It's not going anywhere.

RE: It's not the end.
T_W @ 9/26/2005 5:32:37 PM # Q
>So hold on to your Palm. It's not going anywhere.

Yes, and I'm sure ISVs peripheral makers and accessories makers are going to be pumping tons of cash into developing Palm-related products now the PalmOne has officially endorsed the Windows Mobile platform.

Our Palms might not be going anywhere, but when their batteries or digitizers die, there might not be much out there to replace them with.

RE: It's not the end.
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 5:42:12 PM # Q
Our Palms might not be going anywhere, but when their batteries or digitizers die, there might not be much out there to replace them with.

Just take a deep breath and remember that the Palm economy is a much bigger place than a few angry, panic-stricken enthusiasts on PalmInfocenter. The cooler heads that have skin in the game don't see the Palm platform going anywhere on account of this news: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PSRC&t=5d



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's not the end.
Khris @ 9/26/2005 9:10:31 PM # Q
>So hold on to your Palm. It's not going anywhere.

Palm is a sinking ship full of blind, mindless sheep, bailing water with teacups trying to prolong the inevitable!

This is the end. My only friend, the end. This is the end.
Snoop_Doggy_Dogg @ 9/26/2005 9:24:55 PM # Q
Just take a deep breath and remember that the Palm economy is a much bigger place than a few angry, panic-stricken enthusiasts on PalmInfocenter. The cooler heads that have skin in the game don't see the Palm platform going anywhere on account of this news: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PSRC&t=5d

PalmSource's stable stock price couldn't have anything to do with a recent announcement guaranteeing a buyout at $18.50/share, could it? Nah. Didn't think so.

Thank God for people like Brilliant David Beers to give "angry, panic-stricken enthusiasts" reassurance and direction when the chips are down (and the buffalo is empty).



Fo' shizzle ma bizzle

RE: It's not the end.
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 11:30:50 PM # Q
Yeah, that *was* one of my more brilliant moments, wasn't it?

Believe it or not I am ABD (all but dissertation) on a Ph.D in Economics. I think I should get my money back!


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's not the end.
hkklife @ 9/27/2005 8:35:44 AM # Q
Voice? Is that you pardner? Hast thou been reincarnated as the almighty Dogg himself?

Only a certain type of Dogg could take a bite out of the azz of "Beersie" like that! ;-)

RE: It's not the end.
Jeffry @ 9/27/2005 7:52:30 PM # Q
lol I'm not surprised if he is VoR...

Reply to this comment

PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath

cervezas @ 9/26/2005 5:08:49 PM # Q
Interesting how negatively the street views Palm's new relationship with MS:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PALM&t=5d

And how little the impact on PalmSource:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PSRC&t=5d

One interpretation: while focus groups may have told Palm and PalmSource that the valuable "Palm" brand means hardware, the market thinks otherwise.

Another: the market sees the confusion surrounding the brand as a result of the WM Treo as offsetting the gain from selling more Treos in the short term. (PalmSource isn't really affected because they sold the brand before it was diluted and already took the hit.)

One more: the market thinks the WM Treo announcement will cause so many defections by Palm OS loyalists that the net effect will be negative in the long haul. (Yeah, well, defection to what? Remember, PSRC stocks are holding steady.)

And one more: the market doesn't like the track record of other companies that have tried to partner with Microsoft in the past. (But if Palm gets "hollowed out" by Microsoft, isn't this going to hurt PSRC, too?)

However you look at it, it's remarkable to note that despite the appearance that PalmSource is mostly dependent on Palm for its success, Wall Street sees it as having an independent fate. Which has been my point for a while now: PalmSource's future is going to depend much more on the successes it has with Linux in Asia than on anything that happens here in the US market.

That's good news for PalmSource, but not so good for US Palm users unless Palm reaffirms its commitment to Palm OS. I hope for the sake of all us US users that Mr. Colligan intends to do that soon.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
hkklife @ 9/26/2005 5:44:42 PM # Q
Some I doubt that yet another (likely) overpriced T|E rehash with wi-fi and an ugly Zire with specs worse than the model it's replacing will do wonder towards restoring the faith of the dwindling Palm OS faithful.

What Palm needs is a STRONG 1-2 punch of a Treo 700p with specs at least comparable to the 700w (but with 320*320 in a larger screen size) AND a sleekly designed new upper-midrange handheld--think TX or LD w/o HD-type specs but resembling the V/m500. If the hardware IS impressive, FrankenGarnet's shortcomings can be somewhat mitigated. Somewhat.


RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 5:52:04 PM # Q
What Palm needs is a STRONG 1-2 punch of a Treo 700p with specs at least comparable to the 700w (but with 320*320 in a larger screen size) AND a sleekly designed new upper-midrange handheld--think TX or LD w/o HD-type specs but resembling the V/m500.

I agree! (Especially regarding the Treo 700p, which I think Wall Street would see as more indicative of the future of Palm than another PDA--even one with great specs and a good price point.)

What I'd like to see is that 700p running Palm OS Cobalt. I don't know a lot more than the rest of you about how Cobalt will run on a real, ready-for-market smartphone. But I do know this: there have been a lot of people blowing smoke about Cobalt who have no idea what they're talking about and they have taken advantage of the long delays to create a myth that folks accept for no better reason than that its beaten into their heads by repetition. It'll be nice to see the first Cobalt phones if only to put an end to all the fact-free discussion about it. I am really curious!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 5:54:03 PM # Q

David, you are really stretching now with your "interpretations".

How this for realism.

1) The market has already priced in the MS WM Treo, as it has been an open secret, with even analysts confirming it weeks ago.

2) Palmsource's share price has been fixed by the price Access has to pay in a few weeks time.

Spin, spin, spin, like Jeff Hawkins in his grave...

Surur

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 6:09:27 PM # Q
PSRC has been absolutely valued at $18.50; that is a FIXED price, not a Street price.

As such, The Street values PSRC at...well...that fixed price. Minus the uncertainty fudge factor of the deal falling through.

That fudge factor is about 50-70 cents or so.

There's nothing remarkable about anything w.r.t. PSRC right now as far as The Street is concerned.

And, no, PSRC is NOT dependent on any other stock (PALM et al) to get its own pricing because its price is FIXED.

[now if we want to talk about PSRC and what WAS remarkable, we'd have a whole different thread!]

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 6:13:42 PM # Q
Palmsource's share price has been fixed by the price Access has to pay in a few weeks time.

That's true! Stupid! [slaps forehead]

So you'd need to look at Access shares on the JSE to get an idea what the market thinks the impact is for the Palm platform. I can't hit that site behind my current proxy but doodling a bit on my mobile it looks like Access shares today have fallen about 3% as you might have expected.

But this leaves open the question as to why PALM has dropped 23% since Friday? Whoowee! Now there's a resounding endorsement for the Windows Mobile Treo if I've ever seen one!

Ball's back in your court, guys. If Windows is such a good move for Palm why does Wall Street practically scream otherwise?



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 6:21:33 PM # Q
Apologies - BEGAN that last post quite soe time back but got caught up in aconversation with The Spouse (thus did NOT see the immediately preceeding post get posted before I got done).

Give it up, Beersie
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 6:22:24 PM # Q

It's over.

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 6:24:13 PM # Q
SeldomVisitor, its fine. Corroboration is good because no-one will believe me in any case.

Who do you think company A is?

Surur

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
hkklife @ 9/26/2005 6:26:12 PM # Q
If Cobalt ever ships, it'll likely be on an Asian-only GSM phone from an Asian company looking to make a few quick bucks in '06 before the window of opportunity for the POS market slams shut completely.

Palm's best chance is to try and keep rewriting the broken bits of FrankenGarnet on the fly and focusing on hardware specs & hardware quality. Trying to be a three-trick Pony (WinMob Treo, POS Treo, POS PDAs) and coast through '06 seems to be the only reasonable strategy remaining. There's not THAT much equity in the "Palm" name to do much more than that. Remember, most laymen still use the term "Palm Pilots" and couldn't tell you the difference between a Palm V and a TX when powered off other than one is "shiny".

Some retailers up through last year or so were still showing the Palm line as a 3Com product in their internal inventory sytems!



Doggy Styleeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Snoop_Doggy_Dogg @ 9/26/2005 6:53:49 PM # Q
Who do you think company A is?

  • Nokia



Fo' shizzle ma bizzle

Garnet was an Albatross on Palm's neck
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:15:14 PM # Q

Now they can take it to the next level!

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 7:15:14 PM # Q
SeldomVisitor wrote:
now if we want to talk about PSRC and what WAS remarkable, we'd have a whole different thread!

I'm listening. (And by all means, start a new thread)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 7:16:53 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:
Garnet was an Albatross on Palm's neck.... Now they can take it to the next level!

And so they have! The sub-$30 share level. PALM took a huge dive the moment it was announced that Colligan was going to share the stage with Gates.

Rule #1 about albatrosses: if you want to get one off your neck, don't try to do it by using a bigger nastier albatross.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 7:25:19 PM # Q
Ahem - there IS another thread on the PSRC buyout...in fact, quite a few of them!

Lol!

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:30:34 PM # Q

Beersie - Stop living in the past. Garnet is the PAST! Windows Mobile is the FUTURE! Out with the old, in with the NEW!

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 7:34:00 PM # Q
Beersie - Stop living in the past. Garnet is the PAST! Windows Mobile is the FUTURE! Out with the old, in with the NEW!

That's you're answer? PALM loses a quarter of its market value in two days and your only comment is "out with the old, in with the new?!"

Who is the luser Palm Apologist now?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:38:21 PM # Q

Beersie - go take your medication. stop trying to play stock market analyst. stick with what you know - programming insignificant, inconsequential applications.

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 7:53:24 PM # Q
Beersie - go take your medication. stop trying to play stock market analyst. stick with what you know - programming insignificant, inconsequential applications.

Ooooh, that hurt. Faced with a fact he can't reconcile with his pretty windows-colored world, the great Gekko is reduced to "lalalalalalalalala". And Surer seems to be right in there with him.

Heh, I'm sure this is going to come back on me some day, but for now I am rather enjoying watching you guys crawl into your little shells of denial. Pathetic.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 8:19:59 PM # Q

beersie - I just bought a PalmOS Treo 650 a few weeks ago. I have no allegiance to any company - I will buy from whoever offers me the best product at the moment. If it happens to be Palm or PSRC or MSFT or Dell or Nokia or Moto - so be it. I could care less who makes the product. I don't fall in love with companies as it appears you do. Don't get emotional about technology - it's clouding your judgment.

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 8:23:03 PM # Q

Hey, what did I say? Anyway, the official line is that their poor performance in Q2 2005 (below expectations due to the rapid death of the POS PDA platform) led to the drop in their share price. Thats what the headlines said in any case.

Palm shares drop on lower profit
Posts a disappointing forecast on slower-than-expected European sales of its Treo devices.
September 23, 2005: 9:30 AM EDT

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Handheld computer maker Palm Inc. Thursday said its quarterly profit fell 7 percent and posted a disappointing forecast on slower-than-expected European sales of its Treo devices, sending its stock down more than 13 percent.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/23/technology/palm.reut/

But like the PalmSource "steady share price" I'm sure you prefer your own "interpretation".

Surur

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 9:19:41 PM # Q
I'm sure you prefer your own "interpretation".

No no, that looks like a logical explanation, thanks. Perhaps you're not as delusional as I thought! ;)

As for being emotional, Gekko, my defense of Palm in this forum comes from the fact that I'm a contrarian and find the steady drum-beat about the "death of Palm OS" to be worthy of examination by the very fact that it's so steady. Wherever I see a mob of people all thinking and talking the same I'm inclined to be suspicious and I seem to notice a lot of that passive "groupthink" going on here.

I also recognize the name-calling that you and some others are fond of as a way for you to avoid dealing rationally with an issue, so don't be surprised if I call you on it. If you didn't act so much like you were trying to run away from something I probably wouldn't give you such a hard time and we might find we agree on some things.

As for "falling in love with companies" I use all kinds of devices in my work and can't afford to get attached to any of them. These days I'm using a Symbian smartphone and an iPaq for WiFi web browsing. And while I don't really care much for the Treo form factor I'll probably buy a Windows Mobile Treo to use for a while too. At the moment I'm not even using a Palm except for development, so I don't think you could say I'm in love with Palm.

It *is* a great platform, though, and I think it may yet have a few surprises to spring on the likes of Symbian and Microsoft if Palm and PalmSource don't mess up too badly.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC shares steady, PALM taking a bath
whydidnt @ 9/26/2005 10:49:03 PM # Q
Of course the other reality the market realizes is that Palm now has to directly compete with HP and other "commodity" manufactures such as HTC. Love it or hate it, the POS was a differentiater for Palm. There may be some initial sales, but unless Palm finds a way to improve the quality of hardware produced, consumers will leave to a different manufacturer that provides the same experience without the hardware issues. Let's face it Palm's recent history regarding hardware is somewhat questionable.

I would say that combined with the lackluster forecast would pretty much ruin anyone companys day in the market.

Cervezas, if we were to believe you that the WM on Palm announcement was a stock killer, then we'd have a very difficult time explaining Dell's performance over the last several years. I also don't see HP's stock tank every time a new WM device is announced (of course HP has their own issues, anyway!).

Reply to this comment

Fire Colligan immediately.

VampireLestat @ 9/26/2005 6:31:45 PM # Q
The board of directors of Palm Inc. should get together and fire Colligan right now.

He has single handedly seriously jeopardized the Palm OS economy. Palm OS sales risk dropping dramatically in the coming months and those customers will be split among all the dozen PPC makers.

This is corporate insanity. The CEO is Palm Inc. is on stage bragging how superior WM is and how he only uses a Palm WM device!

Right now, 100% of all the revenue comes from millions of Palm OS buyers.

Again, this is insanity and corporate suicide!

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
VampireLestat @ 9/26/2005 6:35:26 PM # Q
I simply cannot believe what I am seeing. Amazing...

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
T_W @ 9/26/2005 6:54:52 PM # Q
What amazes me is how crappy the demo was. They trot out Lord Gates and Lady Colligan and demo a phone app with a face browser and respond via SMS?

That's the best they can come up with?

They basically are saying the only thing they have of value is the Palm name because of the (expired) goodwill for (distant) past products.

Basically, this whole house of cards seems to be built on someone buying the Palm gray-box PocketPC over the HP, Dell, or HTC gray-box PocketPC simply because of the immediate name recognition of Palm (in which case they really should have bought the Pilot name from Pilot Pen).

They are the "Life Savers" to everyone else's "Certs".

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 7:01:21 PM # Q
Yeah, that sort of thought was broached but not really pursued at the non show - wonder if anyone covered it at the "analyst" show at 16:00?

Might have significant effect, eh?

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 7:02:28 PM # Q
> ...non show...

Ahem - Freudian Slip there - read it as "noon show"...giggle.

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
SeldomVisitor @ 9/26/2005 7:03:28 PM # Q
W.r.t The Demo - I think they had to can a significant ONLINE part of it due to their "connection issue" that became known during the first attempt (the radio).

We have no idea what we might have missed.

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
VampireLestat @ 9/26/2005 7:12:11 PM # Q
The whole conference is available at http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/sep05/09-26MobilityPR.mspx


I am still sitting here in shock. Gates must find Colligan to be retarded. Palm OS is Microsoft's nemesis and Palm OS has half the market. Colligan is not only admiting defeat, he is onstage all excited BRAGGING how his WM treo is the best thing since sliced bread and now WM is so superior to everything.

This is totally outrageous. The man has no idea what he just did. And don't think this is only catastrophic for Palm OS / Access Inc; don't kid yourself, watch as millions of Palm OS users, who were already on the fence, will use this as the long awaited excuse to pick up a new Dell X51v or one of them new super-compact reborn HP 4150 model.

Access has to go into damage control mode and fast. We need to see Sony or another PDA maker buy Palm OS licenses.

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 7:21:36 PM # Q
Maybe he's just admitting the truth. When Colligan notices his WM devices sell much better than his POS devices he will speed up the full changeover to WM on all PDA's/Smartphones.

Surur

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:21:47 PM # Q

I think Colligan did a great job.

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
cervezas @ 9/26/2005 7:37:35 PM # Q
this is insanity and corporate suicide!

Sadly, the market seems to agree with you, Vamp. I didn't expect a big change in PALM shares from this news--after all, the rumor has been out there for so long. I definitely didn't see PALM getting pounded like this. Amazing.

More amazing still: no one here has anything to say about it. Now that Palm is running Windows they've all stuck their fingers in their ears and become "Palm Apologists." What a pathetic spectacle.

Where's the guy with the Winston Churchill quote in his signature when you need him? "We occasionally stumble over the truth but most of us pick ourselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
Jeffry @ 9/26/2005 10:18:06 PM # Q
This is beginning to sound like the Nuremberg Trials...

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
rcartwright @ 9/27/2005 12:44:51 AM # Q
I gotta catch the cast of this. At first I thought that Palm might create its own O/S again based on the number of software folks they were bringing on board. If Colligan had his lips as far up Bill Gates nether regions as posts here seem to indicate, I am not so sure.

David, thanks for the quote shout out. Churchill was smarter drunk, that most folks cold stone sober.

Rick C

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
madmaxmedia @ 9/27/2005 1:08:51 AM # Q
As Bobby Knight once said...


RE: Fire Colligan immediately.
InsGuy @ 9/27/2005 1:00:59 PM # Q
"This is totally outrageous. The man has no idea what he just did. And don't think this is only catastrophic for Palm OS / Access Inc; don't kid yourself, watch as millions of Palm OS users, who were already on the fence, will use this as the long awaited excuse to pick up a new Dell X51v or one of them new super-compact reborn HP 4150 model"

Actually, for me it was the T5 that made me jump to "the dark side". I still come back quite often to see if there is any new device (now or on the horizon) that will bring me back. After this, I guess the answer may be: Nope.

All good things...

Reply to this comment

Best of Both Worlds

Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:10:49 PM # Q

I just watched the press conference and I'm excited. Lots of cool new features. These guys are taking it to the next level. The customer wins. We are living in exciting times.



RE: Best of Both Worlds
VampireLestat @ 9/26/2005 7:16:36 PM # Q
hahahahahahaha not even you believes that. You are not dumb, so I know you know that Colligan is clueless.

RE: Best of Both Worlds
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:18:50 PM # Q

I just bought a Treo 650 but my next Treo will be a WM Treo.

RE: Best of Both Worlds
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:24:11 PM # Q

What's great news is that MSFT allowed Palm the ability to soften the WM GUI and "Palm-ize" it. And Gates said that Palm will have input on WM 6, WM 7, WM 8 etc. This is truly the best of both worlds - Palm's expertise on GUI/User-Friendliness combined with MSFT's under-the-hood power and standards/compatibility with Exchange/Office etc. Who says you can't have it all?

RE: Best of Both Worlds
VampireLestat @ 9/26/2005 7:31:04 PM # Q
Gates is being nice with Palm because his goal is to kill off the competition! Imagine... he just succeeded, not only getting a bankruptcy, but BETTER, a willing submission by the inventor himself (Colligan, Hawkins and the gang) of the Palm! hahahahhahahahahahahaha What a marketing masterpiece for Gates. He got the CEO of Palm Incorporated to go on stage and applaud WM and express how much he is in love with it.

This one of the most humiliating takeovers Ive ever seen in my life. And Colligan knows very well Palm OS is better than WM when it comes to user friendliness. Instead of building Palm OS and standing by his product, he backstabbed the whole Palm community.

Colligan is a tool!

RE: Best of Both Worlds
sr4 @ 9/26/2005 7:34:48 PM # Q

I say it again - WM5 is POS 6.

Surur

RE: Best of Both Worlds
Gekko @ 9/26/2005 7:35:46 PM # Q

PSRC had their chanceS and they blew it.



RE: Best of Both Worlds
Sleuth255 @ 9/26/2005 9:48:51 PM # Q
At least we get Graffiti 1 back!

heheheheh.

Seriously... this one's gonna be a killer. WM5 has built in push email capabilities with E2K3. Palm's going to do an end around on RIM too with this puppy. As a corporate user, I'm excited about this and will be talking to my Verizon rep to get a demo model ASAP. Its interesting to note that availability is right around 1Q06 which ironically is when E2K3 SP1 (the version that supports push email) is due for release.

RE: Best of Both Worlds
ChiA @ 9/27/2005 8:30:25 AM # Q
This one of the most humiliating takeovers Ive ever seen in my life. And Colligan knows very well Palm OS is better than WM when it comes to user friendliness. Instead of building Palm OS and standing by his product, he backstabbed the whole Palm community

What takeover? Palm is still building Palm OS handhelds and neither Microsoft nor Verizon have bought Palm.

Who makes Palm OS? It's not Colligan's Palm but PalmSource and what do they have to offer today? PalmLinux which may or may not appear sometime in the future, the reject that is Cobalt OS and the geriatric Garnet.

The whole idea of the split all those years back was for PalmSource to focus on building mobile OSes whilst PalmOne (now Palm) built PDA hardware. If PalmSource couldn't deliver an OS suitable for Palm's needs then what choice does Palm have but to go with WinMob if it's to survive as a hardware company?

Maybe PalmSource should have delivered an OS worth standing next to.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: Best of Both Worlds
SeldomVisitor @ 9/27/2005 9:09:40 AM # Q
Colligan rejected the idea of working with more than two operating system (palmOS and uSoft).

To me, that means no PalmLinu for PALM.

RE: Best of Both Worlds
Altema @ 9/27/2005 2:11:23 PM # Q
Oh well, the Treo is too big, and I hate WM anyways. Already have all my data and books on my phone for when the T3 retires... I'll miss the movies though.

RE: Best of Both Worlds
cervezas @ 9/27/2005 2:57:33 PM # Q
Colligan rejected the idea of working with more than two operating system (palmOS and uSoft).

To me, that means no PalmLinu[x] for PALM.

That's a pretty weak interpretation, IMO. It implies that Palm spent $150M to renew its license through 2009 for the right to use either (a) Garnet or (b) Cobalt. They might be foolish enough to try to release one last Garnet Treo, but they know that can't go back to that trough for three years, at least for smartphones. And while there's still some small chance they want to use Cobalt, I think PalmSource's announcement that they are putting all horses on the Linux wagon tells us that save a few devices that were already well into the pipeline we probably shouldn't expect any big Cobalt surprises from licensees.

Palm OS for Linux is Palm OS going forward, so if Palm plans to stick with WM and POS through 2009 that means WM and POS for Linux.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Best of Both Worlds
hkklife @ 9/27/2005 4:13:45 PM # Q
I wouldn't call a final one or two FrankenGarnet Treos "foolish". Anything but! If nothing else, the Treo is getting a TON of publicity nowadays. What better way to ride that wave than release a 700p and cut the price of the 650 way down? As long as Palm can get a customer on a Treo--any Treo, running any OS--now, it stands to sell them a new one when their contract expires in a year or two.

There's nothing in the 700p that FrankenGarnet couldn't handle if tweaked properly--320*320, BT 1.2, 1mp digicam all are present in some form or another on other Garnet devices.

Palm can coast throughout '06 with one or two WinMob Treos, one or two Garnet Treos, and a pared-down line of Garnet PDAs and then either do one of the following for '07 & beyond:

A. Field a serious dual OS strategy (PLinux & WinMob) and keep plugging away with smartphones and dedicated PDAs
B. Drop POS completely and put all of their eggs into the M$ basket and become "just another" WinMob hardware manufacturer
C. Throw in the towel and sell out while the Treo line and the Palm brand still have some equity remaining (and carrier agreements!)

RE: Best of Both Worlds
cervezas @ 9/27/2005 5:53:54 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
There's nothing in the 700p that FrankenGarnet couldn't handle if tweaked properly

Well of course it all depends on what you expect from the next Palm OS Treo. I think now that the Windows Mobile version is out there for comparison it becomes more of a problem that your multi-tasking capabilities are so limited on Garnet. It's not just a matter of multi-tasking between user threads, but of handling things like multiple wireless capabilities and enabling all those processes to run in their own protected memory so a problem in one thread doesn't crash the whole system.

3G is kind of this line in the sand for the old RTOS kernels like Garnet: it's the point beyond which hacks and tweaks start to have steeply diminishing returns. PalmSource has said this for years and Palm knows it, too. I'm sure one reason they went with Windows for this Treo is that they needed a preemptive multitasking kernel with protected memory to handle all the stuff that's happening on this device now. Had Cobalt been farther along two years ago when Palm started planning this phone it's possible we'd be seeing a Cobalt Treo now (although obviously there's more motivation to the Windows Mobile move than just multitasking).

Speaking of "two years," did anyone stop to think about that for a moment? We gripe about how long it has taken for a Cobalt phone to come to market and people guffaw when PalmSource tells us it takes at least 18 months to develop a smartphone, but here we have kind of a confirmation of that figure.

Cobalt was at an extra disadvantage over Windows Mobile in that it was an entirely new system, rather than an incremental development like WM 5. Palm was able to get started on the hardware using WM 2003 and maybe some early prototypes of WM 5 two years ago (they all use the old Win32 API underneath). This made it possible for them to release this device only a few months after WM 5 was released. Any Palm licensee that wanted to make a Cobalt device had to wait until 1.0 was released before they could even leave the gate. If a Cobalt phone were released tomorrow, as late as that seems to us, it would still be beating the Treo 700w's time-to-market by several months.

Smartphones are way more complex than PDAs. I saw a chart that MonteVista made a while back that showed the lines of code in mobile devices like phones exploding exponentially. I wouldn't be surprised to know that the Treo 650 had twice as many lines of code compared to, say, the T5 or LifeDrive. And Cobalt or Windows Mobile phones would have many more than that.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Best of Both Worlds
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 7:09:06 PM # Q

I do not know if you follow WM phones, but the ill-fated Mpx300 from 2004 was clearly designed for WM5. It even had softkeys and severely reduced memory. It basically died due to MS not delivering the OS on time. I'm surprised Motorola continued to collaborate with MS. The Dell Axim x50v and HP 4705 only has 64Mb ram and 128MB ROM due to being designed for WM5. Clearly the anticipated WM 5 upgrade was meant to be much earlier this year. The only thing which saved MS was that WM2003SE was not a weak OS to start with. I have the fortune of having the Loox 720, the only high-end VGA PPC which was designed to be optimized for WM2003SE, with 128Mb real ram and 64MB ROM. So yes, WM5 is very delayed, but due to the good performance of WM2003SE no one really noticed. Its like Windows XP, which is now 4 years old. Its old, but its good enough not to make us too antsy about an update.

http://www.brianbehrend.com/archives/images/mpx_open.jpg
http://www.windowsfordevices.com/files/misc/mot-mpx-keyboard.jpg

Surur

RE: Best of Both Worlds
SeldomVisitor @ 9/28/2005 6:28:45 AM # Q
>> Colligan rejected the idea of working with more than two
>> operating system (palmOS and uSoft).
>>
>> To me, that means no PalmLinu[x] for PALM.
>
> That's a pretty weak interpretation, IMO...

I don;t think so - I sincerely believe it is spot on.

> ...It implies that Palm spent $150M to renew its license
> through 2009 for the right to use either (a) Garnet or (b)
> Cobalt...

Your numbers are incorrect - PALM is already in year 4 or 5 of that set of "contract years" and the remaining committments are something like $40M, $30M, $20M, and $10M AND at least the latter part of that obligation is contingent on PSRC doing meeting some undiclosed milestones.

The current PDA set will take care of all that obligation.

I think PalmLinux is past tense in PALM's plans entirely.

RE: Best of Both Worlds - Yahoo msg link
SeldomVisitor @ 9/28/2005 6:33:15 AM # Q
Here's the Yahoo message post I made sometime last night with the actual contract words in it (from an 8K or something outta PSRC):

-- http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=1600640725&tid=palm&sid=1600640725&mid=215063

[pardon the delay in response - strangely, I was in the middle of posting these two replies last night when a "corner" or my house had a circuit-breaker-induced power failure - no verified reason though I believe a simple driveway light lightbulb failure outside caused the whole thing. I gotta get another UPS...sheesh]

RE: Best of Both Worlds
cervezas @ 9/28/2005 8:01:38 AM # Q
Yuh huh.

"The above, BTW and as previously noted, is based on certain "milestones" being hit as well."

Why would they be concerned about "milestones" if they didn't have plans for Palm OS for Linux? And why would they be trying to hire Linux engineers right now?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Best of Both Worlds
SeldomVisitor @ 9/28/2005 9:21:06 AM # Q
The "milestone" bit is directly from PALM's words themselves in some SEC filing.- why they made this a condition is something you'll have to ask PALM.


Reply to this comment

Best Line Goes To Colligan

Gekko @ 9/26/2005 10:13:10 PM # Q

"Partners sometimes compete and competitors sometimes partner." – Ed Colligan



RE: Best Line Goes To Colligan
svrontis @ 9/26/2005 10:46:35 PM # Q
Absolutely godd@m right.

RE: Best Line Goes To Colligan
cervezas @ 9/27/2005 12:41:09 AM # Q
Yeah, I was glad to hear Colligan make this point clearly. One of the things I like about the IT business is this more flexible, less "tribal" way of conceiving partnership and competition.

Everyone had their "partnering" hat on for the press conference, of course, but don't assume this means an end to Palm's competitive roll vis a vis Microsoft.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Best Line Goes To Colligan
svrontis @ 9/27/2005 3:06:08 AM # Q
> Everyone had their "partnering" hat on for the press conference, of course, but don't assume this means an end to Palm's competitive roll vis a vis Microsoft.

Amen to that.

Reply to this comment

Couldn't be more disgusted.

moofie @ 9/27/2005 2:24:17 AM # Q
Utterly pathetic. What a crop of spineless cretins. Instead of fixing the platform, they surrender to Microsoft.

Un-freakin'-believable.

I haven't been this disappointed since MS bought Bungie Studios.

Oh well...my Treo 650 will do fine until somebody figures out how to get me to buy their PDA. Who knows? Maybe Palm will perform a recto-cranial extraction. Maybe this Chinese firm will fix PalmSource and broadly license the platform into phones I can, like, buy. (Are you listening, Samsung? SGH-i550 mean anything to you?)

Oh well. Palm is now 0-3. T5, LifeDrive, and now this...

Apparently Baranski agreed with ya
SeldomVisitor @ 9/27/2005 6:50:03 AM # Q
Wonder where she went?

Is ACCESS hiring?

RE: Couldn't be more disgusted.
attas @ 9/27/2005 7:47:20 AM # Q
"Maybe this Chinese firm will fix PalmSource "

Well,

They will fix Palmsource, and then will rename it to ChawChing source (no offence)which would run on chinese language, and if you wish you could ask for English support.

one year later it would be costly to develope other languages and ChawChing source would be satisfied with chinese market.

one year later when I visit China, I would see some devices sold there with some icons that brings back old memories.


RE: Couldn't be more disgusted.
d_aveFromCA @ 9/27/2005 10:08:56 AM # Q
How is that not 'offensive' you tard? By the way, Access is a Japanese company, oh, but that's right all Asians look the same to hicks like you.

RE: Couldn't be more disgusted.
cervezas @ 9/27/2005 11:01:40 AM # Q
How is that not 'offensive' you tard? By the way, Access is a Japanese company, oh, but that's right all Asians look the same to hicks like you.

It's offensive but I think it also voices a fear that people have about PalmSource becoming part of a foreign company. I had some concerns when I first heard about the buyout that there would be cultural issues internal to ACCESS/PalmSource that would be a problem.

And that may very well be, but as I take a look at ACCESS I start to realize they are in many respects no more "foreign" than PalmSource is already. Like PalmSource (only much more so) ACCESS operates heavily in all markets, they have major offices in Europe, U.S., and Asia, and these offices are presumably locally staffed. They work very closely with dozens of device and software companies in all these regions moving more software by unit than even Microsoft.

PalmSource itself is not relocating and ACCESS says it's not planning any layoffs, which makes perfect sense since this is a new business for them, not absorption of a business they were already in.

At the same time, they know quite a bit about both Palm OS, Linux and the competition (Symbian and Microsoft) since they've worked pretty closely with all of them.

The point is, these guys are not strangers. Not to PalmSource and not to the market that PalmSource operates in.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

Ultimate Solution: DUAL OPERATING SYSTEM SMARTPHONE

ozz @ 9/27/2005 3:59:06 AM # Q
What would happen if some innovative company (Sony?) took advantage of this new Palm/Microsoft marriage and designed a smartphone with a DUAL operating system--that is, it would have both the POS Garnet (or Cobalt?) AND WM 5.0. The user's data would be captured on both systems and could simply choose which operating system they preferred to work with. Heavy enterprise users might like the WM 5.0 while Palm enthusiasts could choose POS. This would keep everybody happy. Yes/No?
RE: Ultimate Solution: DUAL OPERATING SYSTEM SMARTPHONE
KultiVator @ 9/27/2005 10:10:28 AM # Q
The company would have to come up with something better than a 240x240 display to pull that kind of trick off.

What were they thinking with such a low-spec display, when the majority of WinMob devices are at least 320x240?

What incentive is their for WinMob fans to downgrade to such a poor screen resolution?

Believe me, my head is now well and truely scratched!

When words escape you, 'D'oh!' comes to the rescue!

RE: Ultimate Solution: DUAL OPERATING SYSTEM SMARTPHONE
twizza @ 9/27/2005 10:19:35 AM # Q
Not to be rude, but that only a geek's want. The Treo 650's hardware was designed to be OS agnostic. Even to the point that it was found some PPC/HTC boot routines in the boot loader. The WM Treo is just the fruition of that design. If YOU want to put two OSes on your smartphone, you would need more than just a packaged OS and bios as there is a tick more customizing on the kernel level with the OS in mobile devices than with your desktop. If you can manage to figure out that hurdle, then Palm and MS will hire you (so that you dont share that "secret" with anyone else).

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
Reply to this comment

The "gray box" question

cervezas @ 9/27/2005 7:58:10 AM # Q
Colligan mentioned how critical it was that Palm get to customize the user experience of Windows Mobile for this partnership to work. Admittedly, we didn't get to see a lot with the demo, but I couldn't really see what he was talking about. The things I heard him mention that were features brought over from the Palm OS Treos were usability features that have been in Nokia handsets for some time and the one application that was mentioned that Palm added was an underwhelming MMS messaging app. Did anyone see anything that was distinctively, notably Palm in this device, other than the two year old Treo form factor?

I guess Palm (and HTC) had a lot to do just figuring out how to get Windows running on the hardware, but at the moment I'm thinking most of the innovation in this phone is from the fact that it runs on EVDO and delivers push email--both cool features, but neither of which ideas I gather Palm had a lot to do with.

So the question in my mind is whether Palm really is going to be able to innovate on this platform once the novelty of Treo on Windows has worn off, and if not, how *are* they going to keep their products from being commoditized gray-boxes?

Sure hope Access/PalmSource is planning to ditch the "Palm" in the name for Palm OS for Linux at the earliest possible time. The brand is so confused now that there's not much to gain from clinging to it any longer. They'd be better off getting some distance from it straight out of the gate.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 8:54:47 AM # Q
http://www.theunwired.net/?itemid=2137

True, there is very little customization there, quite unlike for example the O2 active screen on the XDA's from the phone network O2 in the UK. The load a whole aternative today screen which provides their own interface to the various apps, tools, ring tones, games etc and website. The first thing most people in the know do of course it to disable it, but most other people interact with their WM device through this alternate interface.

Compared to this Palm did very little. On the other hand, if they had been working hand in hand with MS since 2004, they may have added numerous touches (e.g th sms ignore thing) which are not immediately apparent, but which may make the WM Treo different from other WM devices, and deliver the "Treo experience on WM".

Despite what many people seem to think, MS is quite open regarding WM. They have released most of the underlying code as shared source, you are allowed to make modifications and even distribute these modifications, as long as you feed back these improvements to MS. Palm is probably the only company however with a real incentive (besides squashing bugs) to differentiate themselves from the masses. Everybody else try to do it on price and/or features, while Palm as usual would go for Apple-like "look and feel".

In short then, until we have a WM Treo in hand, and can compare it to a HP 6715, we cant really so how unique or not the Treo will be.

Surur

RE: The
T_W @ 9/27/2005 9:27:26 AM # Q
>Colligan mentioned how critical it was that Palm get to
>customize the user experience of Windows Mobile for this
>partnership to work. Admittedly, we didn't get to see a lot
>with the demo, but I couldn't really see what he was talking
>about.

They are adding:

- 4K Memo Limit
- 1K Clipboard Limit
- 15 category limit
- Sudden USB death syndrome
- Digitizer drift
- The "Treo" ring tone
- No MP3's in main memory of device

RE: The
cervezas @ 9/27/2005 9:39:06 AM # Q
They are adding:

- 4K Memo Limit
- 1K Clipboard Limit
- 15 category limit
- Sudden USB death syndrome
- Digitizer drift
- The "Treo" ring tone
- No MP3's in main memory of device

ROTFLMAO! :D

God, why is that soooooooo funny?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The
hkklife @ 9/27/2005 10:39:09 AM # Q
Don't forget the "find" bug!

RE: The
joad @ 9/27/2005 5:05:02 PM # Q
...It's not a bug, it's a feature. ;) (Like all the problems with the Treo, it's just your imagination or severe stressing of the architecture).


So how much effective Real Ram will this kludge have? Any chance it increases the odds of enough memory in the next REAL (PalmOS) Treo to run most of your programs?



Reply to this comment

Can we still call it Palm?

new2004tt @ 9/27/2005 8:32:01 AM # Q
A Treo without palm os, can we still call it Palm Smartphone?
If next PDA (Tungsten T6 or Zire 80?) running MS os, can we call it Palm?
I suggest Palm Inc, should change its name.

RE: Can we still call it Palm?
cervezas @ 9/27/2005 9:10:30 AM # Q
A Treo without palm os, can we still call it Palm Smartphone?
If next PDA (Tungsten T6 or Zire 80?) running MS os, can we call it Palm?
I suggest Palm Inc, should change its name.

After just paying $30M to PalmSource for it!

Still, I know what you mean. Maybe it's just because I'm a developer but when I hear "Palm" I think "Palm OS". Whether it was a Handspring Visor, a Sony Clie, a Garmin iQue or a Samsung i500 that I was carrying around, I've always called it "my Palm".

At the DevCon in May they showed us some fairly extensive videos of users they interviewed when they were trying to figure out what "Palm" meant to people. They concluded that people think of "Palm" as hardware. I went away pretty unconvinced. The guy hired to talk with these people kept asking leading questions, then he'd "paraphrase" things people said and ask them if they agreed with his paraphrase. The methodology was very poor, IMO, and I wouldn't be surprised if both Palm and PalmSource pay a much higher price for the confusion they are creating than they expected.

This is going to be a nightmare for customer support, let me tell you. "I'm trying to install DateBk5 on my Palm Treo and I keep getting an error that it's not an executable file. But it says it's made for Palm OS."

One reason that the BlackBerry has been so popular is that you can be pretty much brain dead and still use the thing. A colleague of mine who helps big companies roll out hundreds of mobile devices at a time tells me that the executives mostly prefer the BlackBerries and it's the geeky engineer types who want the Treos. RIM basically picked up the Zen that Palm left on the ground and is using it against them. Meanwhile Palm is departing still further from the "just works" kind of simplicity and adding new layers of confusion for the users.

I don't mind from a user standpoint because I one of those geek engineers who likes a device that has lots of complex but powerful features. But I wonder if Palm and Microsoft haven't misjudged their market if they think this thing is a BlackBerry-killer.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Can we still call it Palm?
sr4 @ 9/27/2005 9:51:25 AM # Q

Handheld (and all electronic device makers) are involved in an eternal struggle to keep up with their competitors. This means adding features, such as colour screens, bluetooth and third party apps. Even blackberry is not immune, and the next blackberry, the blackberry electron, with its 65000 colour 340x320 screen and bluetooth, running Yahoo IM chat and anti-virus software, will inevitably be more unstable than its simpler brothers. It will also have poorer battery life and a more complex UI etc.

There is no standing still in this game, and no device remains simple forever.

Surur

RE: Can we still call it Palm?
hkklife @ 9/27/2005 10:40:21 AM # Q
Color doesn't add anything complexity-wise. It just sucks battery life and raises the cost of a device but that's been the case since the first color CRTS a half-century ago.

Bluetooth/wi-fi can be made fairly transparent if done properly. So far, I've yet to see anything approaching the ease with which my PSP can be configured to look for a wi-fi AP. For once, Sony leads the pack on that one.

3rd party software is, IMO, one of the main factors towards causing resets, lockups, crashes, and general user aggravation. Most of your joe six-pack Palm users don't even care/know how to install 3rd party apps. There's one side of the spectrum. On the other side you have power users who know what they are doing. So that leaves the users who know "just enough to be dangerous" and try to load something from their OS 3.5 Palm V onto their new Treo 650 and wonder why it keeps crashing & burning.

When (if?) RIM gets around to adding removable external storage to the Blackberry line, things should get really wonky along the RIM Road.

That's why I maintain that after all is said & done, a fresh-out-of-the-box T|E2 or Zire 31 or equivalent remains the easiest thing to get up and running on for the n00b.

I personally find the Blackberry's endless scrolling & clicking far less efficient than a touchscreen or Graffiti shortcuts but I DO like the BB's battery life! And there's no questioning the durability of the BBs.

RE: Can we still call it Palm?
cervezas @ 9/27/2005 11:24:17 AM # Q
There is no standing still in this game, and no device remains simple forever.

Achieving simplicity does not equal standing still. In fact, developing a device that is truly simple to use when there is an explosion of complexity in the technology under the hood is, IMO, the most important kind of innovation that needs to occur to increase the size and share of the smartphone market.

What BlackBerry has proven is that for a large, apparently forgotten part of the market less is more. There are a lot of people that want devices that do one or two things very well and consider a clutter of other features to be a negative instead of a positive.

My point isn't that Palm is making a mistake developing complex feature-full devices, just that they shouldn't kid themselves that these devices will be popular with BlackBerry users just because they have more features. For many of the average BlackBerry users I suspect they won't be, even if they do have push email out of the box.

Consider how strange the inversion is in mobile device adoption within the enterprise: the closer you get to the top management the more you see of the less expensive, simpler BlackBerries and the less you see of the costly complex Treos that their underlings are using. People who have the highest dollar value on their time and don't have the inclination to geek out over their communication tools tend to go with RIM, despite the fact that it's "down market" from Palm. It's quite amazing.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Can we still call it Palm?
twizza @ 9/27/2005 12:58:05 PM # Q
"Consider how strange the inversion is in mobile device adoption within the enterprise: the closer you get to the top management the more you see of the less expensive, simpler BlackBerries and the less you see of the costly complex Treos that their underlings are using. People who have the highest dollar value on their time and don't have the inclination to geek out over their communication tools tend to go with RIM, despite the fact that it's "down market" from Palm. It's quite amazing."

Not quite amazing as it speaks more to purposful folks versus folks who have a little less to be purposful about. Not a knock, but in a sense its a maturing (now, I work in a gov't IT section, so some folks up top are really bad, knowing about teh WM Treo as soon as I, but thats an exception more than a rule).

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

Reply to this comment

It's About the Enterprise

Gryphon @ 9/27/2005 8:49:43 AM # Q
The big things here are push mail (and central administration in general) and the name Palm. Everyone keeps talking about the competition between Palm and Microsoft, but they both have a big (and growing) competitor in the enterprise: RIM.

As others have said in here, most people don't know (or care) about the differences between various PDAs, so long as it does what they want it to do. I had a new user come to me once asking if I could help him set up his Palm on the laptop I had just given him. (First, imagine anyone in this forum requiring assistance in setting up a Palm.) We don't officially support them, but having been a Palm user (VIIx, T|W) I agreed to help him. When I got to his desk, I noticed it was an iPAQ. I muddled through and got him set up. This was when I first discovered that Windows Mobile wasn’t THAT bad.

About that time, an SVP came to me and said, “I want a Palm.” He didn’t know what model he wanted, he didn’t know which OS; he just wanted a Palm: a PIM on which he could read his e-mail.

My point in both of these is that (up until recently) "Palm" was synonymous with PDA. However, with the type of user I’m talking about, Palm is no longer the only game in town: the other one is Blackberry. These are people who don’t know about the different OSs. These are people who don’t even know that Blackberry devices aren’t built by “Blackberry, inc.” After-all, Palm, inc. was named after its device. These people don’t know (or care) about different versions of the Palm OS, that the Treo is primarily an HTC device, or even that Palm OS was sold to ACCESS.

Now add corporate policy. I work for a very large organization for which “security” and “compliance” have taken precedence over all else. Since data can be stored on PDAs, the current policy is that no personally-owned PDAs (or MP3 players) can be connected to company-owned computers (and only company-owned computers can be connected to the LAN). The only PDAs that are allowed to connect to our computers are company-assigned Blackberrys. The reason given was that Blackberrys can be centrally managed, unlike Palms and WM devices.

Enter WM 5.0 and central management via Exchange (2003). Microsoft now has an OS that has the features large enterprises want for security. And the techies who work on the back-end no doubt know the difference between Palm, Windows Mobile, and Blackberry. However, the average exec only knows Palm and Blackberry. By partnering with Palm for the Treo, Microsoft and WM5 get to hit the ground running with a Blackberry-ish device that has a brand-name that is very well established in the PDA market.

At the same time, Palm gets an OS with push-mail and central administration, so that they, too, can compete with RIM in the enterprise.

Now both companies still have an uphill battle convincing IT departments (such as the one at my company that is still on Exchange 2000) to switch away from Blackberry—but at least they have something to bring to the table. Thus, a major press conference.

You can bash Colligan all you want for selling out, and you can bash Microsoft in general, but PalmSource/ACCESS is not offering anything that allows centralized management of PIM devices—and may not for a couple years. In two years, RIM can completely overtake the corporate market—or at least become more firmly entrenched in it—and then there won’t be any Palm left to use the new OS. It has been stated many times in here that the days of the standalone PDA are numbered. People want access to their e-mail, and right now the big name in mobile e-mail is “Crack-berry.” There are only two real players left in this game: MS and RIM—and MS just got into it. Thus, a competitor becomes a partner. Cobalt was supposed to be the OS that was designed from the ground up for wireless communications, but it never materialized. PalmSource dropped the ball and Palm, inc. can’t afford to sit around and wait for ACCESS to pick it back up.

If your attitude is “better dead than red,” or “better no Palm than a WM Palm,” fine—you would no doubt get your wish. But the stock-holders are not engaged in a philosophical or moral battle. If Palm doesn’t take on RIM in the enterprise, they’re dead. Some may say it’s too late and they’re dead already. That may be—and this may be their “Hail Mary” pass—but this will at least keep them in the game a little longer.

As someone whose first two computers were made by Atari, I learned to recognize a losing battle a long time ago. Selling out, back then, meant going to a Macintosh. Apple was the bad guy because they nearly single-handedly destroyed Digital Research and GEM. Many Amiga users may have felt the same way. Back then, Atari and Amiga users debated endlessly about the virtues of their computers. They’re both gone now. And yes, I know some people still have and use theirs—but they are dead as on-going concerns.

As a Mac user (in the early-mid 90s), I fought another losing battle. I ended up working in IT with Wintel machines, and saw the amount of software available for Windows vs. Apple, and “sold out” again. Steve Jobs later came back and breathed some life back into Apple, but that just helped them retain their market-share, more than significantly increase it—the defections had already occured.

I kept holding out for Palm to make my “ultimate PDA,” and it never happened. I kept seeing them put all the features I wanted in various models, but never combine them into one. When I read that PalmSource was abandoning Cobalt for Plinux, and that they were going to start from scratch, I knew it was over—and bought my Axim X50v in March.

So I am an ex-Palm user who is now a WM user. And once again, at least at work, I am fighting an uphill battle for my newly adopted OS. When I am not allowed to connect my WINDOWS PDA to my work computer, I know that this battle is no longer between Palm and Microsoft. Colligan and Gates know it, too.

RE: It's About the Enterprise
Sleuth255 @ 9/27/2005 1:53:55 PM # Q
Well said! Both Palm and Microsoft are taking on RIM in a big way with this puppy. Add 500kb/s EVD-O to make the experience even better and I think I can say "Get your Palm stock now while its affordable!".



RE: It's About the Enterprise
Docta G @ 9/27/2005 9:16:34 PM # Q
Gryphon, thanks for the most insightful and illuminating piece I've read anywhere on the 'net about this annoucement... props

RE: It's About the Enterprise
cervezas @ 9/27/2005 11:57:52 PM # Q
By and large I agree with you that Palm is not meeting the needs of the enterprise customer as well as RIM these days.

What's strange is that the centralized management, push email and wireless PIM sync have been available for Palm devices for years now through 3rd party software from companies like Intellisync, Visto, and ExtendedSystems. Why Palm doesn't cut a deal with one or more of these companies and offer a packaged solution for the enterprise is beyond me. The packages should include hardware, software, and support, which chould be contracted out to some top flight systems integrators that Palm certifies.

The official reason they don't do this, I think, is that they want to be "agnostic" about these solutions and support them all, which is fine for the 3rd party developers, but I don't think it is a good way to communicate that the Palm platform is ready for business.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's About the Enterprise
Gryphon @ 9/28/2005 2:20:20 PM # Q
I found out about this article this morning. The whole thing started (for central management) in February 2004.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-5883320.html?tag=zdnn.alert


Reply to this comment

Why announce NOW? Because...

SeldomVisitor @ 9/27/2005 11:40:33 AM # Q
...they've still got their REAL new product intros coming up.

Can't have the "!!WINDOWS TREO!!" be upstaged by the OTHER Windows devices PALM intros, eh?


RE: Why announce NOW? Because...
joad @ 9/27/2005 5:10:30 PM # Q
I think the correct term is "dumbphone."

RE: Why announce NOW? Because...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/28/2005 6:41:14 AM # Q
The original post of this thread was throwing out for discussion the thought that some PALM Windows PDAs might be introed soon thus PALM would not want the Windows TREO upstaged by THAT, so had to intro IT way ahead of time.

Reply to this comment

Nokia 7710 or Motorola E680i

T_W @ 9/27/2005 11:37:22 AM # Q
Anyone have any good info on Symbian devies like the Nokia 7710 or the Motorola Linux phones like the E680i?

Any good reviews, comparisons, or migration guides?

RE: Nokia 7710 or Motorola E680i
PDAJah @ 9/27/2005 3:22:48 PM # Q
Yes..have a look at my review of the 7710 at www.my-symbian.com

Jah
Reply to this comment

Nostalgia

Jeffry @ 9/27/2005 8:00:14 PM # Q
I could see myself using the Treo 890 3 years from now running an emulator for FrankenGarnet or Palm OS 5.9999999 or whatever...

Reply to this comment

Is it competitive to the Motorola Q?

asiayeah @ 9/28/2005 12:07:15 PM # Q
So is this new Windows Mobile Treo competitive to the Motorola Q or the HP hw6500?

Motorola Q has a super-thin form factor. HP hw6500 has GPS.

What does this Windows Mobile Treo has?

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: Is it competitive to the Motorola Q?
AdamaDBrown @ 9/28/2005 5:31:27 PM # Q
For starters, the Moto Q doesn't have a touchscreen, and the 6500 isn't getting WM5.

Reply to this comment

Riding the Tiger

Gekko @ 9/28/2005 1:34:39 PM # Q

I think PalmOS AS WE KNOW IT is dead. I believe though that parts of the "Zen" of Palm will live on in WM5, WM6, and WM7. There's just too much momentum and/or inertia for WM and against PalmOS.

Palm choosing to offer WM Treos was a big vote of no confidence for PalmOS by Colligan and customers.

BUT - I don't see this as a bad thing. PalmOS was stagnant and (FrankenGarnet) was hacked and cobbled up as far as could be feasibly done. Cobalt 6.0 and 6.1 was DOA and Plinux is a pipe dream. I do not expect Access to produce a significant, marketable, acceptable OS alternative to WM in enough time. Who will Access use? The old PSRC people? Their own people? If either had the talent or resources, we would have seen one in devices by now.

BUT - I am excited because I think this now means the best of both worlds for customers - the power/resources/standards/compatibility of MSFT combined with the "Zen" of Palm. I think Palm can ride this wave for the next few years. I think Palm will offer a WM Treo AND a POS Treo in 2006, but that will be the last POS Treo that we will ever see. Hopefully by then, WM5 or WM6 will be "Palmified" to where we truly have the best of both worlds and the best of PalmOS will live on in WM. Gates himself said that Palm has/will have influence in WM5 and beyond. This is a good thing for us! It's not a great thing LONG-TERM for Palm.

In the LONG-TERM, much of Palm's "Zen" will be rolled into the BASE WM OS (kind of like how early Windows OS stole lots of MAC OS features) and the Palm Treo will lose its uniqueness. Gates & Co. will take all that Zen and put it into WM6 WM7 etc. He's got these guys under his spell - Colligan obviously has been CHARMED by the man.

I personally would not want to invest in a business (long-term) where all the company does is provide a thin (and thinning) layer of value over someone else's hardware or software. And please do not compare Palm to Dell - contrary to popular belief, Dell's provides a lot of value-added - they spend the same if not more on R&D than does Apple and their logistics bring products to the market better and cheaper and more profitable than anyone else on the planet. Palm will teach Gates & Co. all their tricks and he dump them off on the corner. Why will Gates do this? Not because he wants to "kill" Palm. Gates will do this because WM comes FIRST. The good of the platform comes FIRST. So he will do whatever it takes to make the platform better, let lots of licenesees fight it out, and sell lots of WM licensees. If Palm succeeds at this, great. But his first priority is improving and growing the WM platform at any cost.

I leave you with this question - What will Palm cring to the table 3 years from now when the "Zen" of Palm is totall absorbed into WM6 or WM7?????????????????????????

“He who rides the tiger for power sometimes ends up inside.” – Dick Morris



RE: Riding the Tiger
hkklife @ 9/28/2005 3:44:25 PM # Q
Gekko;

Great summary. It's nice to see you write a lengthy piece that gets past the initial hoopla and shows how this dooms Palm in the long run. Palm basically did a 1-2 shot to their own feet--first with the split and secondly by getting into bed with M$.

Look how allowing licensees onboard almost did Apple in--by the time they had shooed all of the UMax & Power machines off of the market, they were at a total standstill and only the PowerBook/iMac/iPod string of successes of the late 90's and early 00's saved them.

I agree-one more POS Treo and then it's done. A shame, as the 700p will, in all likelihood, be a superior machine to the 700w. With M$ looking over their shoulder, Palm cannot--and WILL NOT--be permitted to drag their and put out feeble, incremental upgrades once every year or two. 240*240 and 64mb will be accepted this time around but from here on they've gotten have competitive specs. After all, once you've struck up an agreement with the devil, there's no place to hide.


RE: Riding the Tiger
Gekko @ 9/28/2005 6:28:47 PM # Q

thanks, hkk.

WM Smartphone = Low Barriers to Entry = Commodity

Barriers to Entry
Why barriers to entry are good.
From: Inc. Magazine, Oct 2001 | By: Norm Brodsky

You often hear these days that the barriers to entry are dropping in industry after industry. It's easier, we're told, to get into pretty much any business today than it ever has been, thanks largely to technology.

That may be true. But it's also true that some businesses are harder to get into than others, no matter what happens technologically. Given a choice, moreover, I'd always go for a hard-access business over an easy-access one.

Why? Because in an easy-access business, the product or service you're selling will eventually become a commodity, if it isn't one already. Not that there's anything wrong with commodities. You're just severely restricted in what you can charge for them, so you're forced to operate with much thinner gross margins than those you'd enjoy in a business that is more difficult for competitors to enter.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20011001/23475.html



RE: Riding the Tiger
sr4 @ 9/28/2005 6:50:11 PM # Q

Microsoft and Flextronics announced that they have jointly developed a GSM/GPRS smartphone "platform" based on Microsoft's Windows Mobile software. "Peabody" is described as a low-cost, feature-rich design that will be customized and resold by OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) and service providers under their respective brands.

The Peabody platform is based on a TI OMAP730 GSM/GPRS processor with 32 MB of RAM and 64 MB of Flash. The device's 1.9-inch color LCD has a resolution of 176 x 220. Communication ports include USB, IrDA, and a Pendant Bus. A miniSD slot provides expansion, and an integrated 1.3 megapixel camera is optional.


http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS2501903923.html

RE: Riding the Tiger
twrock @ 9/29/2005 10:26:13 AM # Q
In the LONG-TERM, much of Palm's "Zen" will be rolled into the BASE WM OS (kind of like how early Windows OS stole lots of MAC OS features) and the Palm Treo will lose its uniqueness. Gates & Co. will take all that Zen and put it into WM6 WM7 etc. He's got these guys under his spell - Colligan obviously has been CHARMED by the man.

If somehow the Zen of Palm makes it into WM, yes, I agree that the consumer benefits. But as the game plays out, does the consumer continue to win in the "long-term"? After each MS "success" in eliminating the competition, do we really continue to see innovation or does the whole thing begin to stagnate?

I would have much preferred to see this continue to play out as competition and for the consumer to reap the benefits of having real choice, not just the choice of which hardware company to buy a WM device from.

But of course there are other "players" to keep an eye on. Who knows who might be getting ready in the wings to enter the game from a new angle. Hopefully there will be some form of competition to keep MS running scared. I do hope that ACCESS somehow gets PLinux to market. In the mean time, I'm hoping the TX is a viable upgrade for me that will last at least long enough for other options to appear.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Riding the Tiger
twrock @ 10/2/2005 12:41:06 AM # Q
I don't know if this was linked already (I'm way too busy to keep up with everything here), but here's the Register's take. Well put.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/27/windows_palm/

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Reply to this comment

don't blame Palm

arielb @ 9/28/2005 1:41:43 PM # Q
what could they do? Palmsrc just wasn't going anywhere with POS. Not their fault POS is a POS. Palm has no choice but to dump it even if it means competing on the same terms as HP and Dell. A losing battle ultimately but it's the only card they have left since palmsrc just didn't do the job.
So microsoft wins again! ugh. But at least mozilla minimo runs on WM.

Reply to this comment

Don't support non-standard phones- stay away from Verizon

jbeedham @ 9/28/2005 6:45:30 PM # Q
Most phone users worldwide can buy a phone and use it on nearly any carrier with the purchase of a sim card. However, in the U.S. most phone users are locked into their carrier with the use of non-standard phones that don't use sim chips.

I recommend everyone stay away from carriers Verizon and Sprint because of this. Sprint and Verizon phones do not conform to the global standard and most will not work when leaving the country. Even though we may not have much choice, you can still have use of standards based phones with sim chips through Cingular and T-Mobile. This way you can take your phone with you if you change carriers or travel outside the country.

-------------------------------------------------------
Proud owner of a Sony TJ-37!

RE: Don't support non-standard phones- stay away from Verizon
hkklife @ 9/28/2005 8:45:29 PM # Q
VZW offers a lovely but overpriced Samsung CDMA/GSM global phone. It DOES work well, though.

Due to the size & carrier fragmentation in the United States, GSM will never approach CDMA's dominance. Like it or not, if you want decent coverage you've gotta go with Verizon.

For those that really need overseas coverage, cost USUALLY isn't a factor and/or a company-provided GSM or a simple SIM card can be arranged.

RE: Don't support non-standard phones- stay away from Verizo
Gekko @ 9/28/2005 10:37:22 PM # Q

I just paid my $175 ETF to switch TO Verizon. The coverage is awesome. I haven't dropped a call yet!



RE: Don't support non-standard phones- stay away from Verizo
pmjoe @ 10/4/2005 8:09:51 AM # Q
Just wanted to point out that sim chips don't magically make a phone "standard". Most (if not) all CDMA phones would work on any other CDMA provider's network with the right software. It is only greed that makes them incompatible with other CDMA providers and radio standards that make them incompatible with GSM.

I'd love to be able to have my choice of the GSM phones out there, but quite frankly I can't justify risking my life on a carrier who can't provide service in the areas I travel.

It sucks that Verizon chooses to cripple features on phones and limit phone choices for their own profits. Unlike hkklife, I do hold out hope that someday GSM will have good coverage in the US, or something even better will come along.

Reply to this comment

A gap that WM will never bridge

apple_orange @ 9/28/2005 11:27:12 PM # Q
If Palm OS is going...
Palm reader a so good small compact (V good compression factor for all the files) and fast reader (Takes a v short time to open than a WM Palm reader with a faster processor) will be a big miss
Free converter though not that "easy" to use as some put it,, can do the job free...
I had currently many book converted into the Palm reader format ( at least close to 200 Mb in size; try storing up books of that size in word document and see if it will hit 1 Gb!!!

The Contacts in Palm is so wonderful with its great support in the category filter, beaming can be done for the whole category, not only one by one...
I can look at all my personal friends category to look for my friend contact or my business contact
But not in outlook ( Perhaps I do not know how to do it in outlook, but I certainly do not need to learn how to do that in Palm)

MS stuff is always so big in size so demand in hardware resources, with all the fancy stuff, will never match the speed in getting the things done like the palm do....

I still find Palm so much easy to play with even though I had a PPC too, I hardly use it, the battery demand is so bad... Even if the battery life is improved the friendlines will still not be there.

Look at the directories I have to go thru in my PPC in searching for my data. For palm all you need most of the time is to just open the software and the software will present to you the data files for you to open; the most you need to do is to switch from the memory to SD card to search and that's ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW!

If Palm had to go ;It will be something I FIND VERY HARD AND RELUNCTANT TO GET USE TO ... even though I can do it.


Reply to this comment

Smart move

Palm4u @ 9/29/2005 8:01:18 AM # Q
This is the best move ever! RIM and its Crackberry is going down big time!

All the business analysts and experts applaud this Palm Windows device. They say a huge majority of the businesses use Outlook and MS software, so they need to sync with them.

They said RIM has a large grasp on the business market, but it doesn't do HALF the stuff a Treo can. Treo is more fun, even more sexy, and combined with MS applications, an amazing combo.

Hope it will raise PALM stock price back up soon!

================================
PDAs rule the world !

RE: Smart move
cervezas @ 9/29/2005 8:40:45 AM # Q
Do people really think the Treo is sexy?

It's a fantastic device but I've always thought it looked like my dog's dinner.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Smart move
hkklife @ 9/29/2005 2:32:04 PM # Q
Sexy? Treo? No way. A LifeDrive has, regardless of its under the hood problems, oodles more style than a Treo. Ditty for an m500, any of the IBM Workpads, the Visor Edge, or even the classic Palm V.

The T|E/E2/T5/TX all can be lumped along the white Zires and the Treos (all of 'em) as Palm's clunkiest and least aesthetically pleasing offerings.

The leaked pics from last month of the 670/700 look a bit better, what with the softer edges, larger screen, and the smaller, rounded antenna.

So,
320*320+larger screen size + smaller antenna+ better aesthetics+Palm OS=700p being preferable over the 700w for NOW.

RE: Smart move
cervezas @ 9/29/2005 3:17:26 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
So,
320*320+larger screen size + smaller antenna+ better aesthetics+Palm OS=700p being preferable over the 700w for NOW.

Heh, there'd have to be a clamshell version before I'd jump. Not going to happen, I think.

Sigh... I haven't seen a Palm OS phone I really liked since the Samsung SPH-i500 and what's that been? 2 1/2 years? That phone was half the size and weight of the Treo, great looking, and rock solid inside and out. I'd go out and by another one today (OS 4.1 and all!) if they did nothing but add a Bluetooth radio to it.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Smart move
Gekko @ 9/29/2005 3:45:53 PM # Q

Clamshell??? Why the F do you want Clamshell?

Clamshell ain't Zen.

RE: Smart move
cervezas @ 9/29/2005 3:52:00 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:
Clamshell??? Why the F do you want Clamshell?

It's its own magnesium alloy case. And it's so thin and light that I can carry it in any pocket--even a shirt pocket--and forget it's there. I don't need the "Batman belt" you were complaining about a while back.

Clamshell ain't Zen.

The i500 sure is. It runs for a week on a charge and is a much more focused concept than the Treos: it's all business. Less is more. No camera, no attempt to be an MP3 player, no screaming ARM processor or 320x320 screen that would sap the batteries and make it too big to be comfortably pocketable. All the thinking went into making it a great smartphone instead of a so-so, semi-stable Swiss Army knife like the Treos.

I know, I'm the exception for liking it that way. I can deal.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Smart move
hkklife @ 9/29/2005 3:57:50 PM # Q
Clamshell is nice if you don't want to carry your device in a case and prefer it "naked" but still with some amount of protection. I could see myself sticking my Treo in the wrong pants pocket and having a pen or a key(s) jab the screen.

The StarTac was a clamshell design and it was perhaps the best execution of a cell phone--form vs. function---ever.

Zen is not necessarily synonimous with simple design. It's also, more times than not, the retreating cry of the PALMyannas who try and apologize for Palm's lackluster features and hardware capabilities of the past half-decade.

"Zen" to me is more UI & OS related than hardware. That said, the T|T's slider was NOT zen as that was an unnatural action for a handheld (sliding up and down) but a clamshell phone is still capable of having "zen". Most people I watch talking on a flip cell phone close the flip to end the call instead of pushing the end button. If that's not cellphone zen, I don't know what is.

RE: Smart move
cervezas @ 9/29/2005 4:19:15 PM # Q
Zen is... the retreating cry of the PALMyannas who try and apologize for Palm's lackluster features and hardware capabilities of the past half-decade.

That sounds like my cue!

No seriously, I understand people wanting to push the envelope with their handheld devices, and I have that impulse, too. But when you start to sacrifice the basics--stability, long battery life, pocketability, doing a few things well instead of many things with compromises--you're starting to sell devices that appeal more to the desire for cool toys than for dependable business tools. A good tool is something that's conformed to a purpose and always reliable for that purpose without you haven't to worry much about it.

Realistically, from a business standpoint Palm really should be targetting people who want a higher "cool toy" quotient in their devices, I'm not criticizing that. I'm just talking about my personal preferences as a consumer.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

The Bastard Child of an Unholy Alliance

formula1 @ 9/29/2005 9:01:55 AM # Q
This "temporary alliance" has been a major blunder by Palm.
Since the treo line is THE top seller among converged devices, it should have asked for more from MS. Strip off the bull, the form factor & elegance of the treos' design is what Gates & co. wanted. Give me your top selling hardware but get that pathetic OS outta here! u could almost hear him scream.
True they can imitate it with some design mods, look at what hp did with the 6500series, but why imitate when you can have the treo shell itself for free. (meaning no r&d on it since it was designed by handspring)
PalmSource has not been admitting it but maybe Cobalt is unDoable. With beOS coming in, still undoable. With ChinaSoft coming in, still no cobalt. They still need more time?
When? After 2 years? By that time all ipaqs would have integrated TV, VGAs as standard screens + all the alphabet soup of connectivity. PalmSource knows it is undoable so before they run out of cash, they sold the palmOS to Access hoping the Japanese run with the ball with it.
So where does Palm, the hardware maker, go to? Release a treo655 with built-in wifi? then release a treo660 with VPN integration? then release a treo670 w/ multitasking abilities? but all still using FrakenGarnet as OS? They said no to Nokia, no to Motorola. But yes to WindowsMobile. Why?
"To accelerate the smartphone market segment". In other words we need to sell more treos but because Cobalt is still vaporware, we will temporarily use wm5. And what if Access discontinues Cobalt development? And this Treo700w takes the market by storm? No more palmOS.
They had not only slept with the enemy. They bore an offspring named Treo700w who would spell the Doom of the PalmOS
RE: The Bastard Child of an Unholy Alliance
cervezas @ 9/29/2005 11:55:54 AM # Q
Cobalt development was already discontinued back in July, although Pat McVeigh and others at PalmSource keep saying that the pipeline is "shaping up nicely" with "several" devices running the already released versions of Cobalt and that these things take a long time. Still, Palm OS for Linux is where all PalmSource's attention is now. And for all the mistakes that were made with Cobalt, I think PalmSource is actually lined up pretty well to deliver a good OS on top of Linux this time around. Even Gartner seems to think so (which is amazing!)

Palm's "bastard child" is not going to be any more interesting outside the US than the previous Treos (especially in Asia) whereas there is rapidly growing interest in Linux as a phone platform in those markets. There aren't many really good turnkey mobile Linux *platforms" out there, so I expect those markets to be hungry for something like Palm Linux when it arrives next year. But whether it will be credible in the US given all the recent events is difficult to say.

It would help if Palm weren't so reticent to come out publicly in support of PalmSource's Linux roadmap, but that's not going to happen for so many reasons. They're not going to state a commitment to something that doesn't exist, for one, and for another, they surely see the roadmap itself as something that could change because of the acquisition. All we know now is that Palm is putting people and money into doing *something* with Linux, even if it's only research.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

Palm OS is NOT Dead! You decide if it does...

jbeedham @ 9/29/2005 2:07:17 PM # Q
Every dollar is a vote. Where you spend your dollars determines who wins or loses.

-------------------------------------------------------
Proud owner of a Sony TJ-37!
RE: Palm OS is NOT Dead! You decide if it does...
bjorkv @ 9/29/2005 8:25:52 PM # Q
I'm a long time computer user starting before M$ dominated the scene in the early 80's. I remember when Widows 3.0 came out and I was using OS/2. Then Windows NT 3.5 came and later Windows NT4/2000/XP. When Palm Pilot came during the mid 90's it was a perfect product with almost no computation, or those anyone remembering Newton from Apple. Then M$ stated with Win CE which no one could see as an combatant for the Palm OS. Now in 2005 we see the end of another competitor of M$ together with Netscape, OS/2, Mac OS,....and probably in the near future Symbian. From my experience the safe way with any computer related question is to go with M$. When even Palm gave up to M$ then the thing to do is "if you cant beet them join them". I will stop using my dear T3 together with Linux, Mac OS/X and Eudora and immediately start using a PDA from Dell or Hp together with Outlook. As the previous post mention money talks and M$ has the most cash!
Palm OS is Dead!
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Gartner says: 'Enterprises! Don't buy PalmOS TREOs!'

SeldomVisitor @ 10/1/2005 10:38:56 AM # Q
RE: Gartner says: 'Enterprises! Don't buy PalmOS TREOs!'
SeldomVisitor @ 10/1/2005 10:42:13 AM # Q
Not sure why the link is broken however the URL as above works - copy-n-paste and yer there!

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What works, works.

kal0el @ 10/4/2005 10:55:56 AM # Q
G'Day,

What do I want? A PDA that works. Does the average end-user, myself included, really care what OS the programs run on? I think not, as long as they function properly, and meet the users' needs.

Fidelity is for marriage, not for operating systems.

I know some folks/companies have serious money & effort invested in the Palm OS. I have a substantial investment (for a user) in the Palm OS myself. If it does get dropped (and it’s not clear right now if that will indeed happen anytime soon), those affected have my sympathies, but nothing lasts forever. I, myself, am coming to the point in my own career where my OS expertise will no longer be in high demand. We all adapt. Learn something new, or roll over & die.

If it comes to it, it'll be a drag not to be able to use the programs I've already paid for, that I prefer using. However, I won't really feel the impact of this until my current PDA needs replacing. It’s not all that different from buying a new laptop (I have a few Windows 95 programs I can’t use any more).

The bottom line for me is - a PDA is a tool. When the power drill you're using gives up the ghost, you go out and buy a new one. You don't lament over the fact that you can't find the same model as the one that just broke.

Kal-El

P.S. I like to write my own personal business cases when making moderate to large technology purchases. I haven’t seen any significant downside to potentially losing the Palm OS, other than program investment.

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Windows Mobile Treo now on EBAY for $2,499

Gekko @ 10/12/2005 1:10:52 PM # Q
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First Treo, Now Zaurus and Sidekick!

sr4 @ 10/21/2005 8:02:22 AM # Q

Many PalmOS users were upset by Palm going Windows Mobile, but it appears they are only part of an avalanche of mobile device makers giving up their proprietary OS's for more standard Microsoft fare.

The most recent addition is Sharp, the vanguard of Linux on the PDA. They have just released the W-ZERO3 WS003SH, a VGA WM5 device with WIFI, sliding keyboard on the PHS network. This is the first Windows Mobile device allowed on the docomo network, which has previously been exclusively Symbian and Linux.

http://www.willcom-inc.com/ja/lineup/ws/003sh/index.html

Is the (Linux) Zaurus on its way out?

Closer to home, the Danger Hiptop/Sidekick 3 is rumored to run WM5 also.
http://uk.gizmodo.com/2005/10/20/more_sidekick_3_rumors_it_runs.html

This follows recent announcements of devices from Quanta (the largest laptop ODM) and from Lenovo (the company who bought IBM's laptop business)
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4453.html
http://www.pconline.com.cn/zt/2005pt/pic/0510/711666.html

Has Windows Mobile hit the tipping point? Is it not worth developing your own OS when you can get one of the peg? Are other OS's doomed? Full story at 11 :)

Surur

Access: foreseeing the demise of the Palm OS
sr4 @ 10/21/2005 2:13:08 PM # Q
Access has revealed that it believes the Palm operating system will soon reach the end of its life.
Access Co Ltd, a mobile browser and content delivery developer that recently acquired PalmSource, has acknowledged that the unit's Palm operating system has a limited future. Access instead appears ready to focus on Linux-based offerings, suggesting that Linux development opportunities were the reason behind its purchase of PalmSource after all.
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The statements from Access came as the company announced the formation of a joint venture with another Japanese group, Oki Electric Industry, which makes telecoms equipment as well as printers. The two have formed Oki Access Technologies to create mobile software combining Access's NetFront Mobile Client Suite (comprising the NetFront browser, a Java Virtual Machine, MMS, and PIN (?PIM) clients) and Oki's voice and video capabilities.

http://www.cbronline.com/article_feature.asp?guid=CE2012DB-50BE-40A3-ABE4-A2A7D057C8FF

via pda24/7.com

This does not sound much like the PalmLinux people have been looking to replace Garnet. It sounds like a very limited platform.

Surur

RE: First Treo, Now Zaurus and Sidekick!
AdamaDBrown @ 10/21/2005 2:57:13 PM # Q
Sounds like they're probably envisioning a Netfront-as-user-interface deal for cell phones. Ugh.

RE: First Treo, Now Zaurus and Sidekick!
AdamaDBrown @ 10/21/2005 3:19:34 PM # Q
Oh, and the Gizmodo rumors about the new Sidekick are false, as are the pictures.

RE: First Treo, Now Zaurus and Sidekick!
sr4 @ 10/21/2005 3:29:59 PM # Q
Interestingly, the Sidekick is made by Sharp, the same people who makes the W-ZERO3 WS003SH.

Surur

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