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Comments on: More Details on the ACCESS Linux Platform

PalmInfocenter had a chance to speak with Albert Chu, VP of Business Development at PalmSource who provided some additional details about the newly announced ACCESS Linux Platform. Read on for the full article.
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Netfront!

legodude522 @ 2/17/2006 2:33:56 AM # Q
Netfront! Awesome.

ALP coming in 2007? But but what am I going to do with my Sharp Zaurus running Linux? I know :-) Install ALP on my Zaurus. hehe. Too early to tell.

I predict a bright future for Palm OS!

Palm m125 December 25, 2002 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to November 2, 2005 > palmOne Zire 72 November 2, 2005 to present

Reply to this comment

Palm OS "emulator"?

PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 2:43:10 AM # Q
Not PACE, an actual "emulator"?

Hmm.... POSE Lives!

It's really naive to have specified the kernel at 2.6.12. There's already stuff in 2.6.16 they're going to want, and a year from now, the linux community will probably be on 2.6.20-something.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Palm OS
Admin @ 2/17/2006 3:43:12 AM # Q
well Albert refereed to Palm OS compatibility as an "emulation layer" and if you look at that ALP schema chart is says "Palm OS (68k) Emulator".
You GOTTA be kidding me!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 5:09:28 AM # Q
well Albert refereed to Palm OS compatibility as an "emulation layer" and if you look at that ALP schema chart is says "Palm OS (68k) Emulator".

And the "PalmOS Emulator" is sitting on top of the Linux module of this ComponentOS. POSE-clone on Linux??? That would be about as crude a solution as Copilot CE was for running PalmOS apps on WinCE devices 6 years ago!

Please tell me this is a joke.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm OS
freakout @ 2/17/2006 5:37:34 AM # Q
Isn't PACE itself an emulator of sorts?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
PalmOS emulation is not enough!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 5:44:13 AM # Q
Isn't PACE itself an emulator of sorts?


Not really. It's more of a translator than an emulator.

http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/palmos5/os5overview.html#pace

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm OS
freakout @ 2/17/2006 6:48:27 AM # Q
Interesting link - thanks.

From further down the page:
"Native ARM Code Support

Nearly all Palm OS 5 application development is done with the existing 68k-oriented development environments, and the resulting PRCs contain only 68k code. This enables usage of existing, mature toolsets. Early versions of new toolchains are expected to be available in 2002 which will enable full native ARM application development for future Palm OS releases, but during the transition period of Palm OS hardware to ARM, application developers should nearly always focus on writing 68k applications which will work on ARM hardware via PACE."

So even though Palms have had ARMS for ages, most Palm apps don't even use them to their full capacity? Weird.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm OS
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 8:53:44 AM # Q
So even though Palms have had ARMS for ages, most Palm apps don't even use them to their full capacity? Weird.

Exactly. We developers haven't really been able to write ARM native applications because Palm only gave us very limited capabilities and tools to do so. We were expected to keep using the old API and to let our apps run in 68k compatibility mode. The big deal about Cobalt for developers was that our apps would finally compile to ARM native executables.

ALP, like Cobalt, is enabling (and encouraging) developers to start writing native code, but also will enable most of the old apps to run in the 68k emulated mode.

I was relieved to read that all the built-in apps will be written or rewritten in the MAX API. The success of this platform is going to ride on the success of the MAX framework.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Will OS 5 apps with ARM work?
rsc1000 @ 2/17/2006 7:43:18 PM # Q
>>So even though Palms have had ARMS for ages, most Palm apps don't even use them to their full capacity? Weird.

>>Exactly.

Maybe notin vertical / custom apps that are the kind of thing you do (no>) - but most commercial apps of significance for OS 5 use ARM. Virtually all games, multimedia apps (media players) and most newer office type / productivity apps all use bits of ARM code (ARMlets at least - some are %99 ARM code, especially a lot of the games) to do heavy lifting (i.e. any image decompression, graphics, document decoding, etc). Example: Docs To Go uses ARM code. Basically the more code does notrely on the 68k API - the slower it will be and thus will need ARM code.

My question is: will OS 5 apps - the hundreds of commerical apps that use ARM - run on this? My worry (based on the 'properly behaved 68K apps will run fine' line that palm also used when it launched Garnet - is that this will not. Hope thats not the case.


RE: Palm OS
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 7:49:50 PM # Q
but most commercial apps of significance for OS 5 use ARM.

I'm aware of that.

My guess--and it's only a guess: ARMlets/PNOlets will not be encompassed by what PalmSource refers to as the "well-behaved" Palm OS applications that will run in emulation on ALP. I'd be interested in hearing other theories from developers about what the "well-behaved" restriction might entail. Palm developers will recall that similar language was used to describe Palm OS 4 code that would run correctly in PACE when OS5 was coming out. But something tells me they're not talking about whether your code was written against a 3.x SDK when they tell you it might not be well behaved enough for ALP.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 8:06:39 PM # Q
my theory: If it ran on POSE, it's 'well behaved'. Otherwise, it's "oops" time.

May You Live in Interesting Times
Reply to this comment

This all sounds quite cool

freakout @ 2/17/2006 3:06:58 AM # Q
Between what they're saying and Marty's insistence that this *will* ship, this is all sounding better and better.

My only question: are Palm going to license this OS? And if Access are successful in getting lots of licensees, then what will Palm differentiate themselves with?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This all sounds quite cool
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 3:28:40 AM # Q
It'll ship alright. Both Access and CMS have good track records at shipping product.

Ryan, that's a good question, though, about Palm. Anything from either Palm or Access on whether Palm will license ALP?


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This all sounds quite cool
nenad @ 2/17/2006 3:37:05 AM # Q
If Palm will license this and/or use is a question for their bussinness plans and only their stockholders should be concerned about it. I am Palm fan, but I care little about the company, I care about the UI and philosophy and ideas behind it.

What I care is that some good ideas and concepts from PalmOS are being transfered into this more modern platform, which will allow us users to have it available (in Palms or other HW) and not be forced to use Windows philosophy on handhelds.

And merging it with "cool" technologies, like Linux GTK and Java will provide even broader range of apps, and in the future, use of the same platform for "hybrid devices", like sub-notebook phones and similar.

Nenad

RE: This all sounds quite cool
Admin @ 2/17/2006 3:40:19 AM # Q
I asked him if Palm had shown any interest or had any comments about ALP, and got the std can't speak for Palm Inc response. It was rather conspicuous that Palm did not have a quote in the press release as they had around 8 different companies commenting on ALP.

Also, I am still waiting on official screenshots of ALP.

RE: This all sounds quite cool
Dr Opinion @ 2/17/2006 8:12:51 PM # Q
> "...It was rather conspicuous that Palm did not have a quote in the press release..."

Palm are in a strange position.

Because ALP is the "son of PalmOS", there are tremendous expectations that Palm would license the product, so in order to keep even a modicum of bargaining power, Palm might decide to play it coy.

Anyway, they don't really want to commit to ALP before it's quality is known, since that cannot possibly enhance either their bargaining position... or the code quality of ALP.

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Reply to this comment

This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 3:05:51 AM # Q
Interesting article, Ryan. But it raises more questions than it answers.

1) The main new user interface is the MAX application framework. It is said to preserve the "zen of palm" intuitive and easy to use user experience. It will support both traditional one handed phone operation (with a 5-way navigator and two dedicated soft keys) and touch-screen and stylus based systems. MAX will finally bring multitasking and concurrent applications to the Palm OS faithful. It fully supports multiple applications and background tasks.

All of the pre-installed ALP applications will use MAX. This includes updated "more modern" versions of the PalmSource PIM suite, multimedia and messaging applications. MAX is the main preferred developer framework that PalmSource wants developers to take advantage of.

So "MAX" is the king? And presumably MAX-related APIs are supposed to dominate? Sorry, but we'll believe this works when we see it. And somehow PalmSource/Access will have this new system ready (and fully integrated with the other nuts & bolts of "FrankieOS") in 10 months? Yeah. Right. I'll take that bet.

2) PalmSource states that "well behaved" Palm OS applications will operate fine under the emulation layer without any modification.

But presumably PalmOS apps will NOT be able to multitask? The wags are already suggesting PalmSource provide 68K app compatibility by just using POSE (PalmOS Emulator). Heh heh heh! This would ensure the FrankensteinOS is the greenest mobile OS in the world. (Reduce, REUSE, RECYCLE!) I hope an amateur hack like StyleTap Platform doesn't end up being a more elegant emulator than PalmSource's own system! Now that would be embarassing!

3) Developers will also be able to write native Linux applications using GTK+ and GStreamer libraries. Both are open source components widely used by many existing Linux applications. Other major open source components include SQLite, a high-performance database engine, and BlueZ, which will provide a Bluetooth 2.0 compliant software stack. PalmSource will be providing development tools to enable third party Linux apps and services to be easily ported and created on ALP.

Sounds like PalmSource feels it's better to receive than give. As I've said before, depending on the Open Source movement for your software development can quickly come back to bite you in the a$$. What if progress is too slow? Do you go your own way? What if no one accepts PalmSource's custom modifications - will PalmSource then end up having to maintain their own code forever?

PalmSource is also including Java J2ME compatibility, which is widely used in many of today's feature phones by manufacturers.

Yawn. Hopefully they mean it this time...

ALP will feature a new application launcher that will include each type of application. The launcher will be MAX based, but will give a common uniform interface for launching each type of application regardless of the type of program. ALP will also feature keyboard and handwriting recognition, though I could not get a confirmation on whether it will use Graffiti or not.

Interesting. So the launcher will have "stubs" that trigger launch routines for MAX/PalmOS/Linux/Java apps? Far more interesting will be the actual User Interface and how customisable it is. A tabbed (LauncherX) UI would have been ideal, while a browser-based UI with shortcuts to apps listed as "Favorites" (customisable in folders) + having customisable icons on the DIA for launching a user's 10 most frequently used apps would have been innovative. Given the dearth of innovation at PalmSource, I fear they'll inflict something like RonDo annesso upon us.

The platform will also include the NetFront web browser from ACCESS. NetFront 3.4 will include support for RSS, AJAX technologies and new plug-ins that will allow the browser to display PDF Files, office documents and videos.

Presumably NetFront will simply be a MAX app. So much for my hope for a browser-based UI. While plug-ins sound nice, the Devil is in the Details. Again, I'll remain sceptical until this system can be tested for robustness. And if the system can truly multitask, why not just launch an appropriate full-featured viewer application in its own process?

The ACCESS Linux Platform will have a application signature and verification system, though by itself ALP will support open applications. It will be up to the operator or device manufacturer whether to enforce or require signed applications.

Presumably there's no way to force users to have 68K apps signed? If a Tapwave-style signature system ever gets forced onto users by the carriers, suddenly there would be VERY little advantage to adopting this new FrankensteinOS.

PalmSource has been working together with ACCESS on ALP for the past three months. The work is being done as a team effort by all of PalmSource's different branches along with ACCESS. Most of the UI work is being done in Sunnyvale, CMS in Nanjing is doing a lot of kernel and application work and PalmSource's French office in Montpelier is concentrating on the communications development.

3 whole months! Wow! And Palm/PalmSource worked on Cobalt since the late 60s. Sunnyvale is obviously now of minor importance - expect continued downsizing this year. Most of PalmSource's better California Codemonkey Crew (C³) have already left the company or are about to leave "to persue other interests". Talented rats usually don't stay on board a sinking ship...

If MAX is supposed to assume primacy over PalmOS and Linux environments, I would have presumed that Access Japan was the major driving force here (unless most of MAX is already completed). Saying that China is doing a lot of the application work is a telling statement: The Sunnyvale Shoppe is toast.

As usual, France is doing telephony. Given how slow they've been historically, unless there's a lot of solid Open Source code to fall back on, this does not bode well. Will the Stacks have Cracks™?

PalmSource also plans to contribute more technologies to the open source community. It has already released OpenBinder, a component object framework for mobile devices. OpenBinder was developed for Palm OS Cobalt and was originally acquired from the Be OS purchase. PalmSource is also an active member of the mobile Linux community and is heavily involved with groups such as the OSDL (Open Source Development Labs) and LIPS (Linux Phone Standards Forum).

Oh please. Cut the B.S. PalmSource is basically a leech on the neck of the Open Source community. PalmSource's motto: "It's better to receive than it is to give.™" Let's not propagate this "PalmSource-as-good-Open-Source-community-citizen" crap any further, okay?

Before the acquisition, PalmSource had announced that they were working on two different branches of Palm OS for Linux. There was going to be a high end version for smartphones and a separate build optimized for feature phones. These plans have been dropped and regrouped around ALP, which will only come in one general version. Operators and device manufacturers will have the flexibility to incorporate or specify what features they want to include in devices. ChinaMobileSoft still sells a version of mLinux in China that powers many lower end feature phones there, but PalmSource has no plans to globalize that product.

So that's The New Plan this week? Are we SURE this time? Is that your final answer? The constant refrain of "Fall back! Retreat! Regroup! Run for your lives!" is wearing thin. Developers once-bitten by Cobalt are going to be plenty shy about this DogFoodOS™...

PalmSource pledged they will continue to provide support for Palm OS Garnet as long as their is a customer need for it.

Translation: PalmOS 5 will be in use indefinitely, even though it should have been retired way back in 2004. Pathetic. And every month that the release date of the FrankensteinOS slips, the more rickety PalmOS 5 looks in comparison to more modern competitors.

However, no further work is being done around Garnet by PalmSource.

Unbelievable. The least they should be doing is devoting some resources to cleaning up the PalmOS 5 code as much as possible. While you can't shine shi*, if PalmOS 5 may be all licencees honestly have to put on devices until 2008 (the REALISTIC earliest date to expect the FrankensteinOS to come to "life"), the least PalmSource can do is try to ensure that their core product can last that long.

The take home message seems to be that PalmOS 5 is REALLY the end of PalmOS, so if you like PalmOS you'd better stock up with as many of your favorite devices as you can NOW. New TH55, UX50, T3 are going to be collectors items that people will treasure the way Apple Newtons are treated by their fanatics.

Mr. Chu said he expects devices running ALP to reach the market sometime in 2007. PalmSource's official release says they expect to make the ALP software developer kit available by the end of 2006. This SDK will be for top licensees and software developers to being work on ALP products. A product developer kit or PDK will be following shortly after for all licensees.

Yeah. Right. And Cobalt was officially released in 2003. Somehow I can't seem to find any Cobalt devices in my local office supply store. How odd.

Don't believe everything you read™


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Palm's future = Windows Mobile (+ a little bit of PalmOS 5?)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 5:22:13 AM # Q
Since Palm (previously burned SEVERELY by the Cobalt Catastrophe) seems to be a non-player in all of the hoopla around the next generation of the OS the company was founded on it appears that they might now be focusing their efforts more on Windows Mobile.

To go from owning PalmOS to stupidly losing control of PalmOS and then seeing PalmOS abandoned/frozen in time by its new masters - all within just a couple years - has gotta hurt. PalmOS has now been relegated to being a secondary feature of a cellphone OS. We will apparently never see any further advances in PalmOS beyond what we now have in current PalmOS 5 devices.

We have just witnessed announcement of the death of PalmOS. While the OS may remain technically alive and on life support, plugged into this new FrankensteinOS, in reality PalmOS is now brain dead because of Access' decisions.


***********************************************************************

PalmOS

Born 1996
Died 2006

R.I.P.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

What's in a name?
freakout @ 2/17/2006 6:57:27 AM # Q
It seems obvious that MAX is whatever good bits could be salvaged out of Cobalt. Otherwise, where did this mystery "application framework" come from?

It seems ALP *is* PalmOS 6, pretty much. Just with a different name. If it supports the old PACE apps, runs the new Protein apps and all the PalmOS developers migrate to it, then the PalmOS will survive. And most importantly, we'll all still have an alternative to Microsoft!

I would really like to know what Palm think of this, and whether they're going to be free to hack away at it themselves, as Handspring were with the Treo. Any chance of an interview, Admin?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
medevilenemy @ 2/17/2006 8:01:16 AM # Q
I really dont know what to say about this "ALP". I can only guess that the interface is probably based almost exclusively on OS6, as probably is most of the intermediate-level coding. The kernel will proably be a modified linux kernel modified to "Plug in" to the existing runtime framework. This would explain not only the simmilarities in description between ALP and OS6, but the alledged speed of development as well.

I can say pretty confidently that Palm proper WILL NOT focus its efforts on WinMob. The only real reason (i think) palm used WinMob on the Treo 700w it that it is trying to grab as much smartphone marketshare as it possibly can before the traditional PPC companies jump onto the bandwagon.

Palm probably wont be too quick to comment on ALP, given it was "Severely burned" before. In the end, Palm is almost certain to continue to use whatever is the most profitable continuation of the PalmOS family line.

Basically, while this "ALP" will have a different set of internal organs, we can be pretty sure that it will have the same "Soul" as the genuine PalmOS. Either way, it will be months before any useful information is available... So we should just wait patiently.

So much for reality
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 9:09:45 AM # Q
More total bullsh*t from TVoR. Adult swim is over and the adenoidal brat is back pissing in the pool. Oh well.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
relyons @ 2/17/2006 9:39:56 AM # Q
TVoR announced,

> PalmOS

> Born 1996
> Died 2006

> R.I.P.

If TVoR truly believes the Palm OS is dead, he wouldn't waste another minute posting to Palm OS forums.

Silence from TVoR on Palm OS forums would genuinely indicate that he believes the Palm OS is dead.

I wouldn't waste time posting in forums about dead operating systems. Why does he?

So here's the truth: TVoR LOVES the Palm OS. Look at how many postings he makes. TVoR is OBSESSED with the Palm OS. He's its number one fan. TVoR really digs Garnet. He's in a corner right now inappropriately fondling a Tungsten T3.

When TVoR and his ilk go silent, I'll genuinely worry about the future of the Palm OS.

Eric Lyons
Proud Palm OS Developer

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 10:06:09 AM # Q
You give him too much credit, Eric. That guy hurling expletives to lampposts at the Greyhound bus station doesn't do it because he loves Greyhound.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Dr Opinion @ 2/17/2006 8:16:55 PM # Q
> "...Sorry, but we'll believe this works when we see it..."

Since when were morons entitled to the Royal "We"??? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 9:50:27 PM # Q
It seems obvious that MAX is whatever good bits could be salvaged out of Cobalt. Otherwise, where did this mystery "application framework" come from?

It seems ALP *is* PalmOS 6, pretty much. Just with a different name. If it supports the old PACE apps, runs the new Protein apps and all the PalmOS developers migrate to it, then the PalmOS will survive.

I believe you are wrong.

I can only guess that the interface is probably based almost exclusively on OS6, as probably is most of the intermediate-level coding. The kernel will proably be a modified linux kernel modified to "Plug in" to the existing runtime framework. This would explain not only the simmilarities in description between ALP and OS6, but the alledged speed of development as well.

I believe you are wrong.

More total bullsh*t from TVoR. Adult swim is over and the adenoidal brat is back pissing in the pool. Oh well.

I believe you are an idiot.

If TVoR truly believes the Palm OS is dead, he wouldn't waste another minute posting to Palm OS forums.

Silence from TVoR on Palm OS forums would genuinely indicate that he believes the Palm OS is dead.

I wouldn't waste time posting in forums about dead operating systems. Why does he?

So here's the truth: TVoR LOVES the Palm OS. Look at how many postings he makes. TVoR is OBSESSED with the Palm OS. He's its number one fan. TVoR really digs Garnet. He's in a corner right now inappropriately fondling a Tungsten T3.

When TVoR and his ilk go silent, I'll genuinely worry about the future of the Palm OS.

I believe you are correct (except I wouldn't touch a T3 with a 10 foot pole).

You give him too much credit, Eric. That guy hurling expletives to lampposts at the Greyhound bus station doesn't do it because he loves Greyhound.

I believe you are proving that you are an idiot.


Since when were morons entitled to the Royal "We"??? :)

You are an idiot. The answer is: The same day you started using the "Royal We".

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
freakout @ 2/18/2006 10:40:33 AM # Q
The "MAX-is-what's-left-of-Cobalt" theory seems fairly reasonable, Voice. What's yours?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 1:23:10 PM # Q
The "MAX-is-what's-left-of-Cobalt" theory seems fairly reasonable

There's nothing that would indicate MAX has anything to do with Cobalt, and much to indicate that it doesn't. It's possible there will be some significant parts of the API that will be similar to the Protein API and I'm sure PalmSource will opt for compatibility wherever it's practical, but some of the most important parts of the system--those for building the user interface and for working with data--have undergone such profound changes in the levels beneath the framework that I doubt the API that exposes these system features will look very much like the Protein API at all.

Having said that, the initial reaction from the developer community to things like having a built-in relational database engine have been very positive, so breaking compatibility may actually be welcome for the benefits it can provide. I know that I'm hoping for qualities like power, flexibility, clarity, and efficiency than compatibility with the old API at any cost.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/18/2006 2:44:39 PM # Q
From the announcement, my guess is that the best way to think of MAX would be to take the Rome work (which was not part of Cobalt), tune it some more to fit into Access' browser model, and port it to Linux on top of GTK+. Since none of the underlying Cobalt facilities (Datamanager, Picasso, et al) survive, there's no reason to expect the API to look at all like protein.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
freakout @ 2/18/2006 6:05:46 PM # Q
What is an "application framework"? Is an "application framework" (i.e. MAX) hard to do? How'd they come up with it so quickly - considering it's only been months since the acquisition? Or is it something Palmsource has been working on for awhile and has just renamed? Or is it just vaporware, just words on a page, with no practical implementation yet?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Oh, and did anyone ever make a Protein app anyway?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/18/2006 8:57:57 PM # Q
The "MAX-is-what's-left-of-Cobalt" theory seems fairly reasonable, Voice. What's yours?

MAX represents a completely new mobile OS with its own set of APIs. I expect MAX to be like a stripped-down, more efficient version of WinCE or EPOC. It has basically NOTHING to do with Cobalt. Almost all traces of Cobalt will be expunged because the failures PalmSource experienced in trying to use scavenged bits and pieces of Cobalt to make PalmLinux proved it was not worth the hassle. You simply can't cobble together bits and pieces of code to create a modern OS. PalmSource was naive (or mendacious?) to claim they could. I'll let Dianne Hackborn's previous absurd comments on how supposedly simple it would be to salmage Cobalt speak for themselves. Access was not dumb enough to attempt to salvage a buggy incomplete OS and integrate this into their future core product. Failure of Cobalt would have bankrupted the company.


Access presented its plans for a new mobile OS a couple years ago and they would have started work on it at that time. The only thing the PalmSource purchse adds is a fourth arm (PalmOS) to what otherwise would have been a tripod MODULAR OS ("MAX, Linux distro, Java).

It's not like Access just thought of this yesterday! I think by acquiring PalmOS (an environment that is well known and easy to write for), Access is hedging their bets + buying insurance for their mobile platform that otherwise may have been shunned by carriers and cellphone makers if it came only with a brand new environment (MAX).


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/18/2006 9:58:57 PM # Q
MAX represents a completely new mobile OS with its own set of APIs.

Except, of course, for the bits of it that expose Linux, Posix, Pthreads, SQLite, GTK+, OpenBinder and BlueZ interfaces, and the parts that conform to the various standards that Access now paying LiPS service to.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Cobalt Chowder
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 1:41:28 PM # Q
Oh, and did anyone ever make a Protein app anyway?

Most developers took a wait and see attitude towards Cobalt once they started to realize that it was all hype and that no devices were materializing from the Vapor. Why spend hundreds of hours learning how to code for new APIs and then updating your applications when there are NO DEVICES that actually work with your updated code? Anyone that spent any time learning how to code for Cobalt must be feeling pretty pi$$ed off right now.

If I was a professional developer, I would keep coding for PalmOS 5 (without any ARM-native code) and start porting my apps to Windows Mobile (as many developers have done over the past 2 years). Also, Beersy previously made an excellent point about the flexibility of SuperWaba - it has evolved into a very solid, flexible platform and epitomizes the "write once, run everywhere" ideal that Java has failed to deliver. I would probably look at using SuperWaba for simpler in-house custom app development to be deployed on a variety of hardware and possibly even for use in more ambitious programs as well.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Ed- would you ban him already?
Tuckermaclain @ 2/19/2006 5:01:21 PM # Q
Just for the record, TVoR is a pig. I was under the assumption that we could no longer post anonymously was because the comments were getting out of control and you could ban them from posting. This clown's comments are like what you'd read on the stall-door in a public urinal.

What's up, Ed? In the last few days I've read comments about deep-throating, protein around somebody's wife's mouth. It's all the same, every comment. It might be funny on some juvenile trash porn-site, but not here. I don't want to look at the world through his "protein-splattered" glasses. People read this site (I hope) for the very latest buzz from a knowledgeable group. TVoR really just detracts from whatever amount of professionalism there is.

Will you ban him already? Or at least, ensure that he remains civil?

If you want a vote, cast mine for "ban."

Ryan is the admin now, not Ed
cervezas @ 2/19/2006 5:37:50 PM # Q
And PIC *is* the public urinal of the Palm user community. If Ryan implemented a modding system that sites like SlashDot have the community could be self-policing: content-free and abusive posts by guys like TVoR and Gekko would fall below almost everyone's threshold and would rarely be read, while posts that add some value to the discussion would display prominently. But apparently the problem doesn't cost him enough in money or embarrassment to bother with that.

Instead, since there's no way to make contributions here that don't get flamed in the crudest, most infantile ways by the trolls, those who do want to have on-topic discussion are forced to fend for ourselves, which often reduces the signal-to-noise ratio even more. I'm not claiming that I'm standing on any kind of high ground here, by the way, but I refuse to be a sap and I'm unwilling to relinquish the forum to those whose comments are designed to put an end to real discussion.

It's a shame. And, yes, of course I'll get flamed for this... and nothing will be done about it.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I vote Tuckermaclain off the island
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 5:49:33 PM # Q
Ryan is welcome to ban me at any time if he feels my posts don't contribute to the site. (In my opinion I've contributed a lot more to support Palminfocenter than you have, my dear child.) If anyone should be banned it should be you for your rude attack on me and tragic lack of a sense of humor.

I'm sure Palm and PalmSource/Access would love for Ryan to ban me for speaking THE TRUTH that others are afraid to say publicly. Over the years, The Voice of Reason has been one of the few advocates for the PalmOS platform demanding that Palm/PalmSource rise above their persistent level of mediocrity.

Given the events of the past few months, I now have serious doubts about the future of PalmOS and have debated leaving Palminfocenter altogether. As someone who has been a regular reader + poster at Palminfocenter since the beginning, that's saying a lot. The wit and intelligence of regulars like Beersy, Surur, hkklife, Marty, et al has kept me coming back.

If Ryan chooses to ban me or censor my posts, that's his decision. No doubt Palm would probably be willing to send more advertising dollars his way if all anyone sees at Palminfocenter is gushing pro-Palm treacle and "fantastic" pictures of pretty kittys (pu$$ys?). PalmStation and PDA Buzz died. ClieSource died and was reborn as a walking-dead site populated by teens, preteens and the ever-clueless Jeff Kirvin. Treocentral still has a lot of posting (mostly vapid drivel), but the idiotic moderators there (like gspunkface) have long since either banned or driven off most of the intelligent, witty posters there. Brighthand is an embarassment true to its "m505 Brightness Hack" Steve Bush roots and should taken out to behind the barn and mercifully put out of its misery.

You want to see me banned? Bring it on. Moron.


TVoR
(former intimate acquaintance of Dianne Hackborn ;-O)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Gekko @ 2/19/2006 6:28:30 PM # Q

>And PIC *is* the public urinal of the Palm user community.

you must like urinals because you're here posting 24/7. how do you ever get any work done for your "business"? do you ever even leave the house?

don't insult Ryan and everyone else who posts here. if you don't like the site, just leave.

nobody here wants to read your endless apologist propaganda anyway. you are neither informative or entertaining. please do us all a favor and go to 1src or brighthand with the rest of the blind cheerleaders.

thank you and goodbye.


Any more c0ckroaches have something to say about me?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 6:37:04 PM # Q
content-free and abusive posts by guys like TVoR and Gekko would fall below almost everyone's threshold...


Et tu, Beersy? Et tu?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Banning Peaches
PenguinPowered @ 2/19/2006 6:45:25 PM # Q
former intimate acquaintance of Dianne Hackborn

you're peaches!

There is an alternative, skippy, and you're well aware of it. You could drop the "dwelling it its parents basement, behaving like a loser from an r crumb comix" attitude and stick to the topic.

Going for the scatalogical in an attempt to get a rise out of people is old, Skippy; isn't working for you; and, as you can see, nobody finds you funny anymore.

You really need to grow up and get out of the basement.

HTH HAND

May You Live in Interesting Times

no need for banning
cervezas @ 2/19/2006 7:15:31 PM # Q
No one is insulting Ryan. And no one needs to be "banned" if PalmInfocenter has the right software. Ryan just taps a bunch of moderators--maybe ten regular contributors (the group could rotate)--and they have a certain number of points that they can use to mod posts up or down during their term as moderator. People who get consistently modded down by the moderators will have low point values and readers can set their own threshold of what point value they care about reading. Posts can be modded up for being funny, insightful, interesting, and down for being trolls.

This is how SlashDot works, and it seems to work very well, keeping both the entertainment and content value quite high. It's about time PalmInfocenter had something like this.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
twrock @ 2/19/2006 7:34:18 PM # Q
Is it so hard to see that the threats of violent sex and continuous stream of juvenille insults against other contributors and their family members are simply over the line? Try a little self-regulation for once and others won't be asking Ryan to do so. But since all of this is nothing more that attention seeking behaviour, I don't suppose any "self-regulation" will be forthcoming.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.
better modding system
cervezas @ 2/19/2006 7:40:24 PM # Q
Actually, on further examination it's simpler than that on SlashDot: anyone who the community votes as having good karma gets moderation point they can use to mod posts by others. No need for Ryan to pick moderators when the community itself can do it.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Ban-anarama - Cruel Summer
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 9:39:53 PM # Q
don't insult Ryan and everyone else who posts here. if you don't like the site, just leave.

And when you leave, Beersy please spare us the dramatic announcement that you're leaving in a huff.

nobody here wants to read your endless apologist propaganda anyway. you are neither informative or entertaining. please do us all a favor and go to 1src or brighthand with the rest of the blind cheerleaders.

While Beersy's not quite as snivelling as Kirvin and his preteen FanKlub, some of the rationalizations Beersy comes up with to explain the idiocy at Palm/PalmSource are downright hilarious


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Some free advice for Beersy
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 9:51:53 PM # Q
No one is insulting Ryan. And no one needs to be "banned" if PalmInfocenter has the right software. Ryan just taps a bunch of moderators--maybe ten regular contributors (the group could rotate)--and they have a certain number of points that they can use to mod posts up or down during their term as moderator. People who get consistently modded down by the moderators will have low point values and readers can set their own threshold of what point value they care about reading. Posts can be modded up for being funny, insightful, interesting, and down for being trolls.

This is how SlashDot works, and it seems to work very well, keeping both the entertainment and content value quite high. It's about time PalmInfocenter had something like this.

Didn't you recently complain that you thought there wasn't enough news at Palminfocenter. And didn't you also already complain about the design of the site? And didn't you already try to get Ryan to ban me, threatening him with the supposed loss of advertising dollars? Beersy, if you don't like how Palminfocenter works then:

1) Why don't you ask for your money back?
2) Why don't you set up your own PalmOS website where you can ban and moderate 24/7. See how many posts you end up getting. By the way, how many comments does that blog site (the one that you keep advertising here in every post you make) generate? None? Wow. What a surprise.

No doubt you would "volunteer" yourself to be a moderator for Palminfocenter. Thanks, but no thanks, Buddy. We recently saw what that dumba$$ (and PIC Forum moderator) gspunkface did with his Treocentral moderating "power" when he banned a longtime Treocentral member, "slinky" for making an obvious joke that gspunkface was too stupid to get. This is precisely why I and several others have given up on Treocentral.

So keep your little "suggestions" to yourself, Beersy. When you have your own website, I hope you don't mind when some dumba$$ comes along and biotches about how you aren't running it to their liking.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 10:30:22 PM # Q
>>>former intimate acquaintance of Dianne Hackborn

you're peaches!

Close but no... cigar. I could tell you but then you'd probably tell Dianne and then she'd probably kill you, me and then herself. ;-O

http://www.angryredplanet.com/~hackbod/rodney/story.html

http://www.angryredplanet.com/~hackbod/

There is an alternative, skippy, and you're well aware of it. You could drop the "dwelling it its parents basement, behaving like a loser from an r crumb comix" attitude and stick to the topic.

Going for the scatalogical in an attempt to get a rise out of people is old, Skippy; isn't working for you; and, as you can see, nobody finds you funny anymore.

You really need to grow up and get out of the basement.

No, Marty - YOU need to "grow up" and stop bashing the he11 out of PalmSource in public. Do you enjoy kicking companies when they're down (and out)?

Take care, Buddy. By the way, do you have a decent lawyer? Just wonderin'. No reason.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/19/2006 11:41:02 PM # Q
that's an amazing fantasy you've got going there, skippy. Remind me again, exactly how is it that saying Access is going to deliver ALP is "kicking" them?

You might want to consult a lawyer, yourself, there skippy, you seem not to understand what limits NDAs do and don't set on people.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: about comment moderation
Admin @ 2/19/2006 11:50:46 PM # Q
Nobody here is up for bannation. However David you do bring up some good points. I have always wanted a more slashdot like moderated comments system as it would definitely be beneficial here. Its something I have to work on developing out soon.

I do moderate the comments here. I really don't delete anything unless I find it offensive or potentially abusive. You're all welcome to post whatever you want and i like to keep the discussions open but I just want members to be respectful to each other and keep the profanity to a minimum. It would be nice if we could keep the joking around on a more PG13/R level rather than some of the triple xxx/goatse outbursts I have to delete. If there is ever anything offensive posted that I haven't caught send me a message and I'll take care of it as soon as possible.

-Ryan

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/20/2006 2:15:05 AM # Q
I just want members to be respectful to each other

this is a joke, right? you'd have to delete 95% of skippy's posts if you deleted his disrespectful behavior.

in 22 years on the internet, I've gotten banned exactly once, and it was from another web site for saying what I'm about to say to you:

It's your site. You run it however you want. But do me a favor and don't write up stuff that pretends you run it differently than you really do.

you wanna let skippy play r crumb loser on here, that's fine with me, but don't pretend you think there's anything respectful about it.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
AdamaDBrown @ 2/20/2006 2:44:14 AM # Q
It would be nice if we could keep the joking around on a more PG13/R level rather than some of the triple xxx/goatse outbursts I have to delete.

Dang, but this just came off to me as hillarious. One of those funny-because-it's-true sort of things I guess.

Ryan, the effort is apprecciated. I, for one, think that this place is doing pretty good--hard as that might be to repeat with a straight face after reading some of the more unclean screeds posted around here. But in my experience, some leeway is better than stomping on the brakes as soon as somebody goes out of bounds. If you ever want to see an example of over-the-top moderation, go over to PocketPCThoughts and brush up against one of the forbidden subjects, such as politics or religion. I once had a post over there deleted for talking about the relative value of US government spending on nationbuilding versus national infrastructure. Yes, it was really as dry as it sounds. Back on topic, though, PIC may get spicy, but it's also considerably more lively and interesting than some other sites, and you can still find some really interesting discussion despite the noise ratio.

This forum is great just the way it is
freakout @ 2/20/2006 3:35:08 AM # Q
As a relative newbie around here, I've got to stick my head in and say that this site is possibly my favourite one on the Internet nowadays. In my experience it's very rare to find a place like this where the discussion is nearly always informative and entertaining, even if the topics can be dry. It has a nice mix of developers and users, and by having knowledgable people around it helps prevent a lot of fanboy rubbish (of which I myself am probably guilty). My questions have always been answered politely and knowledgably. So it's a nice place to hang out and learn new things.

A moderation system can work against this by hiding people whom mods might have a personal grudge against - and nobody's perfect. The PIC community isn't really so huge that a moderation system is necessary. If this *were* as big as Slashdot, you'd have to have one. But it's not, so you don't.

I for one would hate to see The Voice silenced. I think some around here miss the obvious: that the outrageous, often insulting things he writes are *designed* to provoke people into reacting, which is just more entertainment for him. It's exactly what my older brother does, with great success. And people here fall for it! It makes me laugh everytime I see someone taking one of those outrageously rude and long-winded put-downs personally. The Voice is having you on, people, and enjoying himself as he does it. It's remarkably fun to watch.

This is the Internet, fellas. I doubt *anybody* presents their real self online (even if they are close to it). Everyone here is virtual, and all the insults are virtual. If you can't handle it... you really need to grow a thicker skin.

That said, I've never been on the receiving end of an Internet flamewar, and can't really speak from personal experience. So sorry if I've offended anyone with that. But I'm of an age (22) where scatological humour is still funny.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
SeldomVisitor @ 2/20/2006 7:25:44 AM # Q
> ...I for one would hate to see The Voice silenced...

Me, too.

Though sometimes I wonder about a few posters' strange attitudes - seems like a waste of fingertips to me - all those very same posters OFTEN post actual good-to-read information/discussion/opinions.

Enough with the "Ban him! Ban Him! Burn Him!" talk.

no one should be banned, nothing removed
cervezas @ 2/20/2006 8:57:07 AM # Q
Have you guys ever visited slashdot? http://slashdot.org/

You don't have to ban people or even delete offensive content to make a site where people can read the stuff that's entertaining or insightful without seeing the stuff that sucks. The crap simply floats to the bottom, there, instead of the top. And no one has to get assigned as a moderator--the readers themselves (especially those who post content that others mod favorably) do that. It'd save a lot of trouble for Ryan and give everyone a chance to see more of TVoR and less of me, if that's what they want. Who could argue with that?

It's a simple modification, Ryan.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
naio21 @ 2/20/2006 9:43:27 AM # Q
But by doing that you lose the sequence of the messages! It's probably rather confusing...

Ivan
RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Gekko @ 2/20/2006 9:59:26 AM # Q

Beersie - 1src and brighthand are calling. you'll like it over there - nothing but people who agree with you. if that's what you want, GOODBYE. otherwise, stop biitching about the site you say is a "urinal" that you post on and monitor 24/7.



go look at slashdot
cervezas @ 2/20/2006 9:59:46 AM # Q
But by doing that you lose the sequence of the messages! It's probably rather confusing...

No. Go look at slashdot and you'll see what I mean.

Just offering an alternative to moderation by the site editor. There are probably others. And nothing is going to be perfect.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/20/2006 12:44:51 PM # Q
As a relative newbie around here, I've got to stick my head in and say that this site is possibly my favourite one on the Internet nowadays. In my experience it's very rare to find a place like this where the discussion is nearly always informative and entertaining, even if the topics can be dry. It has a nice mix of developers and users, and by having knowledgable people around it helps prevent a lot of fanboy rubbish (of which I myself am probably guilty). My questions have always been answered politely and knowledgably. So it's a nice place to hang out and learn new things.

A moderation system can work against this by hiding people whom mods might have a personal grudge against - and nobody's perfect. The PIC community isn't really so huge that a moderation system is necessary. If this *were* as big as Slashdot, you'd have to have one. But it's not, so you don't.

I for one would hate to see The Voice silenced. I think some around here miss the obvious: that the outrageous, often insulting things he writes are *designed* to provoke people into reacting, which is just more entertainment for him. It's exactly what my older brother does, with great success. And people here fall for it! It makes me laugh everytime I see someone taking one of those outrageously rude and long-winded put-downs personally. The Voice is having you on, people, and enjoying himself as he does it. It's remarkably fun to watch.

This is the Internet, fellas. I doubt *anybody* presents their real self online (even if they are close to it). Everyone here is virtual, and all the insults are virtual. If you can't handle it... you really need to grow a thicker skin.

That said, I've never been on the receiving end of an Internet flamewar, and can't really speak from personal experience. So sorry if I've offended anyone with that. But I'm of an age (22) where scatological humour is still funny.

Well said..

All this talk about "banning" is just tempting me to biotchslap Marty and Beersy unconscious. Again.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/20/2006 12:44:51 PM # Q
As a relative newbie around here, I've got to stick my head in and say that this site is possibly my favourite one on the Internet nowadays. In my experience it's very rare to find a place like this where the discussion is nearly always informative and entertaining, even if the topics can be dry. It has a nice mix of developers and users, and by having knowledgable people around it helps prevent a lot of fanboy rubbish (of which I myself am probably guilty). My questions have always been answered politely and knowledgably. So it's a nice place to hang out and learn new things.

A moderation system can work against this by hiding people whom mods might have a personal grudge against - and nobody's perfect. The PIC community isn't really so huge that a moderation system is necessary. If this *were* as big as Slashdot, you'd have to have one. But it's not, so you don't.

I for one would hate to see The Voice silenced. I think some around here miss the obvious: that the outrageous, often insulting things he writes are *designed* to provoke people into reacting, which is just more entertainment for him. It's exactly what my older brother does, with great success. And people here fall for it! It makes me laugh everytime I see someone taking one of those outrageously rude and long-winded put-downs personally. The Voice is having you on, people, and enjoying himself as he does it. It's remarkably fun to watch.

This is the Internet, fellas. I doubt *anybody* presents their real self online (even if they are close to it). Everyone here is virtual, and all the insults are virtual. If you can't handle it... you really need to grow a thicker skin.

That said, I've never been on the receiving end of an Internet flamewar, and can't really speak from personal experience. So sorry if I've offended anyone with that. But I'm of an age (22) where scatological humour is still funny.

Well said..

All this talk about "banning" is just tempting me to biotchslap Marty and Beersy unconscious. Again.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/20/2006 1:03:42 PM # Q
That would be because we don't recommend banning you?

I mean, if you want to be banned, just say so; I'm sure Ryan would cooperate.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
naio21 @ 2/20/2006 1:53:22 PM # Q
"All this talk about "banning" is just tempting me to biotchslap Marty and Beersy unconscious. Again."

How rude! (TM Jarjar Binks)

Ivan

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/20/2006 2:21:14 PM # Q
That would be because we don't recommend banning you?

I mean, if you want to be banned, just say so; I'm sure Ryan would cooperate.

No, because Tim is one of the few people who have posted to this thread with any COMMON SENSE. Just look at why YOU'RE here, Marty. People like you, Jeff Kirvin, BubbaSteve, Dollface Dianne, David S., Beersy, etc all come here looking for what I'm giving you. Now get back on your knees and lick my boots some more, Marty.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Jarjar Binks must DIE!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/20/2006 2:31:53 PM # Q
How rude! (TM Jarjar Binks)

DIE, JARJAR, DIE!!!!!!!!!!!

http://tinyurl.com/k9c3k

http://tinyurl.com/as2k4

http://tinyurl.com/4qj22

http://tinyurl.com/4stz3

http://tinyurl.com/onnz8

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/20/2006 2:41:05 PM # Q
um, no skippy, they don't. that's the problem with your sad little fantasy, and what makes you so clearly an r. crumb loser.

your shtick is like that of all other wannabes. you're trying for shock factor, but repetition loses shock value. so you become progressively cruder until even Ryan decides you've crossed the line and censors your juvenile behavior.

now that you've jumped the goatse shark, you're out of material, and the only thing left for you is to grow increasingly tiresome through repetition of the same sad fantasies. Even your fan club will eventually tire of you.

you're just a train wreck in slow motion, skippy, and you've used up your entertainment value.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/20/2006 3:35:52 PM # Q
um, no skippy, they don't. that's the problem with your sad little fantasy, and what makes you so clearly an r. crumb loser.

your shtick is like that of all other wannabes. you're trying for shock factor, but repetition loses shock value. so you become progressively cruder until even Ryan decides you've crossed the line and censors your juvenile behavior.

now that you've jumped the goatse shark, you're out of material, and the only thing left for you is to grow increasingly tiresome through repetition of the same sad fantasies. Even your fan club will eventually tire of you.

you're just a train wreck in slow motion, skippy, and you've used up your entertainment value.

Thank you for that erudite analysis, Marty old chap. Your trenchant assessments and pithy comments are always welcome. Tell me, were you smoking a pipe, sipping cognac and wearing a tweed jacket in the East Wing study when you









SCRAWLED your latest screed? Inquiring minds want to know.

TVoR

P.S. It's nice to see that you've toned down your PalmSource bashing a notch or 10. Even though you're freshly (and thoroughly) chastened, can you bring back Smarmy Marty once in a while for old times sake?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
freakout @ 2/20/2006 4:15:03 PM # Q
"...to see more of TVoR and less of me..."

Hey, no one said that! We love you too David!

My only beef is that people can occasionally be burned by mods with an axe to grind, and not everybody uses their mod point, so it can become a little unbalanced.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/20/2006 5:28:40 PM # Q
Ok, Skippy, let me bring it down to a level you can cope with:

go play in traffic

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Tuckermaclain @ 2/20/2006 5:32:22 PM # Q
Ha! Now really funny. TVoR used "erudite" and "Tabes Dorsalis" both within one week. His brain must be moribund after all that. Put away the magazine and take your nap.

Didn't take long too see an example of what I was saying...
freakout @ 2/21/2006 3:42:10 AM # Q
I will indulge myself, by quoting myself:

"...the outrageous, often insulting things he [TVoR] writes are *designed* to provoke people into reacting, which is just more entertainment for him... And people here fall for it!"

Then Voice does exactly that:
"People like you, Jeff Kirvin, BubbaSteve, Dollface Dianne, David S., Beersy, etc all come here looking for what I'm giving you. Now get back on your knees and lick my boots some more, Marty."

Everybody here *knows* he's not serious, right? That he is just ****-stirring? Apparently not Marty:

"um, no skippy, they don't. that's the problem with your sad little fantasy, and what makes you so clearly an r. crumb loser."

Mate! Honestly. How could you take a joke like that seriously in the first place? [shakes head] Not a 'fantasy', but a joke.

There was a recent news article ( http://tinyurl.com/7gjj2 ) that describe how the "tone" of around 50 percent of emails are misinterpreted by the reader. I wonder if that's the problem that starts a lot of 'net flamewars?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
twrock @ 2/21/2006 4:23:48 AM # Q
Riiiiiiiiight. Now everything is crystal clear. Everything TVOR's ever written has just been a joke. It finally all makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.
RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/21/2006 4:26:10 AM # Q
Tim,

I realize Skippy's not serious. I also know that he is not funny.

He's a sad little boy, looking for attention from the adults, and the word for people who humor him is 'enabler'.

You might be young enough to be amused by purile behavior, but after 23 years on the net, I find it tedious and juvenile. Worse than that, Skippy is boring. He's a one-trick pony, a broken record of scatological remarks.

It is possible to be funny without being insulting, and to be entertaining without being abusive.

Skippy's neither funny nor entertaining. He is merely insulting and abusive. He truely is an R. Crumb loser, living in a fantasy where he thinks he's clever and witty rather than tedious and repetitive.

The place for Skippy's kind of "humor" is a 6th grade playground. It's time for Skippy to grow up and learn some real humor.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
freakout @ 2/21/2006 5:36:54 AM # Q
^^ I dunno... I found the whole lick-my-boots thing a nice piece of absurdism. ;)

In many ways, you're right. My real point in all this is that people's senses of humour are diverse, and that on a site of this size, a moderation system is fairly unnecessary. Moderation systems can work against free and open discussion. For instance, on Slashdot, Anti-Apple posts in Apple news stories - or even constructively critical comments against Apple - are modded down by the hordes of (to borrow TVoR's term) Mac Cultists. Those who contribute worthless crap but praise Apple get the points.

Is that what you guys really want your community to become? A place where the negatives are just swept under the rug? There's a saying: "When everybody thinks alike, nobody thinks at all."

Moderation is necessary on Slashdot because it's such a huge community. There'd simply be too much to wade through if there was no moderation. But here, it'd kill the atmosphere, I think. I'm sure there's lots of people who lurk and enjoy reading the regular debates that carry on here, like I did, that would say the same thing - leave it raw and uncensored! No-holds-barred Must-See-PIC!!!

And I think TVoR is such a regular fixture here that if he left, you'd miss him. :P

And that's my two cents. In the end, it's Ryan's board...

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Simony @ 2/21/2006 6:10:41 AM # Q
> "When everybody thinks alike, nobody thinks at all."

Well, that kinda sums up the daily chanting of 'Palm is doomed' around here. Daily, for how many years now?

> And I think TVoR is such a regular fixture here that if he left, you'd miss him. :P

Maybe. But don't forget that people like The Vat of Refuse use up a lot of bandwidth (in terms of having to wade through all the dross). They also take pride in chasing away other contributors. (Remember all the boasts about how she stared down that mikecane guy?).

As for losing atmosphere, well that has already happened here at PIC. Long time ago, now.

I remember when PIC was always a good site for checking what users were doing with sofware, the exploits of intrepid hackers, what accessories were any use, etc. The main articles still appear as before - but the comments almost always regress back to the same old 'Palm is doomed' theme (whether it has any relevance to the article or not) - and this drowns out practically all other comments.

And let's not forget the asphyxiating 'political correctness' around here. Once the daily 'Palm is doomed' chorus gets going, anyone who doesn't toe the line is shouted down, called foul names, subjected to nonsense threats (mostly to do with lubricants or lack thereof), etc, etc.

Of course, cowering behind the first rank of provocateurs, there are the lesser trolls whose only 'contribution' is to haul out again the same old marketing spin from pocketpcthoughts.com ... day in day out, over and over again. What's so entertaining about that?

This is what you call atmosphere? I call it smog-haze.

I hope you will forgive my outburst; it's nothing personal. It's just that I miss the old PIC, with its sense of community, sharing of ideas and experiences.

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Gekko @ 2/21/2006 7:10:37 AM # Q

we're REALISTS here.

maybe you should just go sop up the rose-colored glasses pablum over at 1src or brighthand?



RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Simony @ 2/21/2006 7:20:06 AM # Q
OK.

1src is cloud cuckoo land
Surur @ 2/21/2006 7:52:09 AM # Q
At 1src, informed opinion from the other side is hard to come by. e.g.


Pdaman
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,411

palm os > windows mobile

So after many years of using palm os I have been finally thinking really upgrading my from palm os to windows mobile. Main reason why I'm even swithing is that I really want device where are all stuff what I need. Another reason is that I have even before thinking about buying a ppc and I would just want use more some softwares which palm os hasn't like Voip, netfront 3.2 and many cool looking games which I have been looking into lately. For question why windows mobile? For that anwser is that I don't like symbian os series at all and don't keep Linux so great either. Palm os is great but then comes Windows mobile which has just better stuff what to install to it. It has also this one software which emulator palm os softwares and that is a huge plus.

Anyway the biggests things that I'm worried are the technical quality of windows mobile smartphones, battery life and web browsing. Because it just seems that th55's technical quality is very good (screen don't make any noice, has sony handheld engine and etc.) so if I'm going to get new device I don't want any crap which break to my hands with unlimited erros like with palm latests models. And about the battery life, thing is that many ppc phones run on +312mhz processor so I afraid that I'm going to miss my th55's battery life. And for web browsing th55 has been very good in my opinion but I have been reading that Windows mobile can't do the same so well as th55.

It is only just that what I'm searhing is just quite much under rock. Becose I would want gadget with windows mobile, phone cababilities, good battery life, Keyboard for fast writing and specially with high quality. I don't also keep VGA or even HVGA as so "must get" thing. Also I have read that Windows mobile can't handle documents so well so this isn't also problem becose I don't edit or view them so much anyway, almost never.

So any tips or hints or something? Or maybe recommend which windows mobile phone to get?

Edit: I have been thinking to upgrade HTC universal, Circular 8125 or same kind of device so what you think about those?

3 posts later...


Pdaman
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,411

um, thanks for you post cyker more comments and posts please ?

So if you want to live in cloud cuckoo land, where WM isn't even acknowledged.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/21/2006 1:20:56 PM # Q
The point y'all are missing is that there's a middle ground.

Surur, I don't see you getting scatalogical in an attempt to make your points about WM, for instance.

It is possible to have entertaining but informed discussion without behavior that belongs on a 6th grade playground, not a web forum.

The problem with Skippy is that his entire shtick consists of name calling and rude sex remarks. It loses the shock value on the 2nd repetition, and becomes boring on the third. Yet he goes on for weeks at a time on the same tedious insults.

Would I miss skippy if he were gone? Maybe. Would I miss his tedious sexual baiting and juvenile insults? Not a bit.

And no, I don't think slashdot's moderation system is any sort of solution. slashdot's a cesspool of a different sort, but it's still a cesspool.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Getting sick of the crybabies?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2006 6:34:17 AM # Q
>>> And I think TVoR is such a regular fixture here that if he left, you'd miss him. :P

Maybe. But don't forget that people like The Vat of Refuse use up a lot of bandwidth (in terms of having to wade through all the dross). They also take pride in chasing away other contributors. (Remember all the boasts about how she stared down that mikecane guy?).

You like me! You REALLY like me!
In case you didn't know, a bat could "stare[] down that mikecane guy". Even you might some day be able to "stare[] down that mikecane guy". But first you have to eat your vegetables and drink your milk so you can grow up to be big and strong like TVoR.


Would I miss skippy if he were gone? Maybe.

Marty, you little Softy! You like me! You REALLY like me!

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/23/2006 1:52:02 PM # Q
Only when you're playing in traffic.

May You Live in Interesting Times
Reply to this comment

Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 6:46:12 AM # Q
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7873#108729


http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7873

http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT6402459179.html

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
SeldomVisitor @ 2/17/2006 7:57:04 AM # Q
That last one is...interesting...

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
relyons @ 2/17/2006 9:59:47 AM # Q
If TVoR truly believes the Palm OS is dead, he wouldn't waste another minute posting to Palm OS forums.

Silence from TVoR on Palm OS forums would genuinely indicate that he believes the Palm OS is dead.

I wouldn't waste time posting in forums about dead operating systems. Why does he?

So here's the truth: TVoR LOVES the Palm OS. Look at how many postings he makes. TVoR is OBSESSED with the Palm OS. He's their number one fan. TVoR really digs Garnet. He's in a corner right now inappropriately fondling a Tungsten T3.

When TVoR and his ilk go silent, I'll genuinely worry about the future of the Palm OS.

Eric Lyons
Proud Palm OS Developer

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
palmato @ 2/17/2006 10:27:30 AM # Q
> If TVoR truly believes the Palm OS is dead, he wouldn't waste
> another minute posting to Palm OS forums.

You underestimate TVR's passion and talent for wasting time on pic boards ;-)


--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
palmato @ 2/17/2006 10:27:30 AM # Q
> If TVoR truly believes the Palm OS is dead, he wouldn't waste
> another minute posting to Palm OS forums.

You underestimate TVR's passion and talent for wasting time on pic boards ;-)


--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
hkklife @ 2/17/2006 10:39:20 AM # Q
No, he's in the corner fondling his Sony TH-55 with one hand and Mike Cane with the other!

You know he's Clie all the way or bust!
;-)


I imagine his stance is much like my own....STILL a #1 supporter of POS and vehemently anti-Winmob/MS. BUT we're tired of seeing our favorite platform dragged through the mud and mistreated over the past 5+ years, losing ground bit by bit the whole time.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 1:31:45 PM # Q
Your favorite platform is dead. ALP isn't PalmOS, although its POSE (note that the acryonym applies even though they are very unlikely to simply use the old PSRC POSE for various reasons) does pay lip service to 68k developers.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 1:37:39 PM # Q
Your favorite platform is dead. ALP isn't PalmOS...

Interestingly, whether "Palm OS" is dead or not in any sense that users care about is not a technical question you can answer from looking at technical diagrams--it's a social question. Did the Mac platform "die" with OSX? Technically, yes it did, but it's as alive and well as it every was to Mac users. That's because the new OS was written in a way that (a) developers bought into the new Cocoa API (or at least Carbon) and wrote apps for it, and (b) user were still able to run their "Classic" apps in emulated mode while the transition was under way. That's the model that ACCESS is trying to emulate with ALP.

So while you'll hear developers like me, or Marty or PMJoe saying that the Palm OS is dead now, we're really talking about the fact that there's practically nothing left of the nuts and bolts of Palm OS, not whether the platform in the broad sense (i.e. the whole ecosystem that made the Palm OS what it was) is going away. What happens to the platform will depend on how many devices ship and how much buy-in there is from the existing developer community.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
hkklife @ 2/17/2006 3:25:06 PM # Q
I could care less about the nuts'n bolts of it (remember I am like Gekko and am decidedly a mere "user" in a non-technical field/background). I just want the "zennish" elements to remain intact, some semblence of the classic UI ( I still run Win XP in "classic" mode), and the speed/intuitiveness/streamlined nature that are classic hallmarks of POS. Of course, OS need to be brought up to at least shouting distance of modern standards as far as stability, multimedia/wireless savvy etc.

A choice of legitimate Graffiti 1 would be a Godsend but that's unlikely to occur.

So, I could care less whether the bits of 68k/PACE/ALP are underpinning "The Palm Platform". I just want efficiency, superficial familiarity and at least a modicrum of backwards compatability. In that "social" regard as David mentions, (hopefully) the "Palm OS" should still be very much alive & kicking.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
KultiVator @ 2/18/2006 7:36:46 AM # Q
hkklife is right - 99% of users just want the simplicity and familiarity of Palm OS and don't care abnout the 'under the hood' details.

Let's hope the ALP platform is tightly integrated and exceeds the sum of its many parts.


KultiVator

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
freakout @ 2/18/2006 10:45:01 AM # Q
"ALP isn't PalmOS..."

Could one of you developer folk tell me what MAX is, if not Cobalt? (or what could be salvaged?)

Secondly, they say that licesees will be able to cherry-pick which parts of ALP they'll include on their devices. Will they be allowed to go further and add their own bits and pieces as they want? If so, then Palm themselves might roll their own ALP and just call it PalmOS. Perhaps "PalmOS powered by ALP".

Afterall, they bought the name back. Might as well use it.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/18/2006 9:38:20 PM # Q
"ALP isn't PalmOS..."

Could one of you developer folk tell me what MAX is, if not Cobalt? (or what could be salvaged?)

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8378#119097

MAX represents a completely new mobile OS with its own set of APIs. I expect MAX to be like a stripped-down, more efficient version of WinCE or EPOC. It has basically NOTHING to do with Cobalt. Almost all traces of Cobalt will be expunged because the failures PalmSource experienced in trying to use scavenged bits and pieces of Cobalt to make PalmLinux proved it was not worth the hassle. You simply can't cobble together bits and pieces of code to create a modern OS. PalmSource was naive (or mendacious?) to claim they could. I'll let Dianne Hackborn's previous absurd comments on how supposedly simple it would be to salmage Cobalt speak for themselves. Access was not dumb enough to attempt to salvage a buggy incomplete OS and integrate this into their future core product. Failure of Cobalt would have bankrupted the company.


Access presented its plans for a new mobile OS a couple years ago and they would have started work on it at that time. The only thing the PalmSource purchse adds is a fourth arm (PalmOS) to what otherwise would have been a tripod MODULAR OS ("MAX, Linux distro, Java).

It's not like Access just thought of this yesterday! I think by acquiring PalmOS (an environment that is well known and easy to write for), Access is hedging their bets + buying insurance for their mobile platform that otherwise may have been shunned by carriers and cellphone makers if it came only with a brand new environment (MAX).

Secondly, they say that licesees will be able to cherry-pick which parts of ALP they'll include on their devices. Will they be allowed to go further and add their own bits and pieces as they want? If so, then Palm themselves might roll their own ALP and just call it PalmOS. Perhaps "PalmOS powered by ALP".

Afterall, they bought the name back. Might as well use it.

In theory, DogFoodOS is a fairly modular, Frankenstein-like OS. It seems feasible that Access/PalmSource could easily delete one or more of the 4 environments ("MAX", PalmOS, Linux, Java) within DogFoodOS without killing the OS. If a certain carrier/company does not want users to be able to install PalmOS or Java apps, these modules could be either removed or "locked down" by Access as part of a custom distribution. Access could also potentially create a simplified "feature phone OS" by paring down the modules. That would be an elegant way to expand the appeal of the OS to the broadest range of clients.

Access would be wise to tightly control licensees much like how Microsoft does with Winsows Mobile. Allowing licencees a lot of freedom to customise the OS has created many of the current problems with PalmOS (incompatibility, redundancy, instability). Of course, this all happened because Palm/PalmSource was too lazy/incompetent to come up with solutions to problems like the need for color screen support, hi res, expansion media, etc, so licencees were forced to fend for themselves, only to see Palm/PalmSource then "borrow" this code and fold it back into the OS (as the contracts permitted). The problems arose when different licensees came up with different ways of achieving a goal.

A little Paternalism can be A Good Thing for an OS maker to possess.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
PenguinPowered @ 2/18/2006 11:22:39 PM # Q
MAX represents a completely new mobile OS with its own set of APIs.

See elswhere in this forum where I've pointed out the fallacy in that claim. (The OS is ALP, by the way, Skippy, MAX is just a UI layer within the OS.)

I expect MAX to be like a stripped-down, more efficient version of WinCE or EPOC.

Then you're either not reading, or not understanding, Access' description of ALP.

MAX is a UI layer that's a small part of a fairly large OS (by mobile standards, anyway.)



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 11:07:53 AM # Q
>>>MAX represents a completely new mobile OS with its own set of APIs.

See elswhere in this forum where I've pointed out the fallacy in that claim. (The OS is ALP, by the way, Skippy, MAX is just a UI layer within the OS.)

How do you define an "OS", Marty? While DogFoodOS is comprised of all of the parts Access has presented in the diagrams published to date, in a sense it represents 4 modular environments within the same platform. I am referring to each of these environments as an "OS" within DogFoodOS, even though it may be more technically correct to call each component an "application framework" or an "environment". MAX is touted as being the primary way users will interface with the Linux core.

>>>I expect MAX to be like a stripped-down, more efficient version of WinCE or EPOC.

Then you're either not reading, or not understanding, Access' description of ALP.

MAX is a UI layer that's a small part of a fairly large OS (by mobile standards, anyway.)

I think Access' descriptions are quite clear. Functionally, MAX and its underpinnings should be similar to the two advanced mobile OSes I mentioned. A major question that remains is what the actual User Interface for MAX will look like.

While Access' ideas are interesting, I believe they will arrive too late to stop Windows and less complicated Linux-based competitors from taking over the market. And I don't think PalmOS users are as faithful to the platform as Access is betting they are. "How much is the PalmOS platform worth?" is the $320 million question that won't be answered for a few years. With PalmOS being essentially a Frozen Caveman OS dating back to 2000 (PalmOS 4) and no prospects for a rewrite of PalmOS, I'm betting that Access will lose this bet. They should have just copied the PIM apps and PalmOS UI and used them as the foundation for MAX. And kept their $320 million in their pocket. Access got played for fools by "Slickster" McVeigh & Co.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
PenguinPowered @ 2/19/2006 6:12:13 PM # Q
Functionally, MAX and its underpinnings should be similar to the two advanced mobile OSes I mentioned.

WinCE is hardly an 'advanced' OS, even today.

A major question that remains is what the actual User Interface for MAX will look like.

Yes. I suspect it's a question that Access itself doesn't know the answer to just now.

While Access' ideas are interesting, I believe they will arrive too late to stop Windows and less complicated Linux-based competitors from taking over the market.

It's not particularly complex, certainly not more so than any of the competitors, other than offering POSE as a wart on the side. It should have a smaller footprint than either Maemo or the handhelds.org distro.

You underestimate the asian anti-microsoft sentiment; Access' relationship with DoCoMo; Access' track record; and the complexity of the other linux offerings in this arena.

I can't say how Linux will do against Microsoft, over all, as too many uncertainties exist, but I still place Access' attempt high up the list of possible Linux plays, behind only Maemo -- which Nokia may never play into the telephony market.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 6:43:47 PM # Q
>>>Functionally, MAX and its underpinnings should be similar to the two advanced mobile OSes I mentioned.

WinCE is hardly an 'advanced' OS, even today.

"Advanced" as in more advanced than most of the other crap out there. Which yes, isn't saying much...

A major question that remains is what the actual User Interface for MAX will look like.

Yes. I suspect it's a question that Access itself doesn't know the answer to just now.

Yes, MAX is sounding like more Cobalt-flavored, Wizard of Oz-style smoke and mirrors:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2006-February/msg00120.html

RE: gtk + ALP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jesse Donaldson"
To: "gtk"
Subject: RE: gtk + ALP
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:27:36 -0800

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone,

Wow, you don't waste any time, I just saw the press release myself!
Anyways, I am one of the architects for this new framework. I've been lurking on this list for a little while now, and I can try to answer some of your questions. Some things are probably confidential, but I'll be as open as I can about everything else. Obligatory disclaimer: Please note that I am *not* an official PalmSource spokesperson, so please don't expect that. If I start getting quoted in the press or anything, someone might tell me to stop talking.

As for whether MAX will run on X or Direct FB, I believe the internal debate continues. :-) We're investigating both, and see some advantages on either side. Many folks seem to be assuming that it will not run on X, mostly due to performance concerns, but I haven't seen the numbers from the people investigating that. Also, the demo at 3GSM *does* run on X, for what that's worth. I'd be curious to hear what you folks think about the matter. As an aside, the press release said "an optimized implementation" of GTK+, but we don't really know what "optimized" means yet. We've mostly been running GTK on desktop machines while the X & DFB folks do their various investigations.

For my part, I'd really like to participate in the GTK+ development community, and to do this with its support. My own goals are to make sure that anything we build on top of GTK+ is done in a manner that is consistent with it, and that any modifications we make are able to be accepted into the official distribution (see "optimized" above). One thing I would like to know is what you folks think of all this, and whether you are interested in making GTK+ the basis of a handheld applications platform. That's certainly our plan, but some changes might be necessary to get it working well on a handheld, and I don't know if you would be interested in taking them unless they were really needed on the desktop as well. I'd certainly like to work in harmony with the main distribution, but we could also consider working with a separate project like GPE if you are really focused on the desktop. I should probably also warn you that our schedule is quite short, and that may limit the degree of our cooperation at times. We'll do the best we can, though.

In case you're wondering about me, I'm a software engineer living in California in the US. I've been working on various flavors of Palm OS for nearly 8 years now, and have always loved working on frameworks best. That said, I am new to GTK+, and have relatively little experience on Linux as well (I'm a long time Mac guy). So if I seem naïve, please don't assume that I'm stupid, and feel free to help educate me if you are so inclined. :-)


Regards,
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: gtk-devel-list-bounces gnome org [mailto:gtk-devel-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of Mathieu Lacage
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 3:32 AM
To: gtk
Subject: gtk + ALP

hi,

I recently stumbled upon:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4663700447.html which outlines the ALP platform. A GTK+/gstreamer stack is included in it and I see no X server. I assume this means that they plan to either port GTK+ to this platform's low-level APIs or use an existing technology such a DFB and
GTK+/DFB. Is there someone who has heard about this and who would be
allowed to confirm my guesses ?

regards,
Mathieu
--


*************************************************************************

Yeah, so the OS' future is now in the hands of some newbies that have been sent out to beg for handouts from the Open Source community? All riiiiiighty, then. Looks like Access/PalmSource should be shipping a real product pronto. Not.


>>>While Access' ideas are interesting, I believe they will arrive too late to stop Windows and less complicated Linux-based competitors from taking over the market.

It's not particularly complex, certainly not more so than any of the competitors, other than offering POSE as a wart on the side. It should have a smaller footprint than either Maemo or the handhelds.org distro.

You underestimate the asian anti-microsoft sentiment; Access' relationship with DoCoMo; Access' track record; and the complexity of the other linux offerings in this arena.

I can't say how Linux will do against Microsoft, over all, as too many uncertainties exist, but I still place Access' attempt high up the list of possible Linux plays, behind only Maemo -- which Nokia may never play into the telephony market.

I think trying to blend all of this in one and having a united UI is a bit much given the time constraints and limited codemonkey resources. PalmSource USA is currently in shambles and burning (while Pépé "Nero" Gassée fiddles and counts his millions of $$$ in blood money). PalmSource France has proven incompetent in the past in producing decent telephony stacks quickly. Is PalmSource China supposed to be the Saviour? Apparently so.

PalmSource USA is now pretty much redundant if the PalmOS component is just going to be an emulator. I wonder how much it would cost to hire the StyleTap crew, Picard and a few other talented developers? No doubt, shutting down PalmSource USA will save Access a ton of $$$...

Yes, I know everyone hates Microsoft and feels if it says "Linux" and doesn't have Microsoft's name on it, it must be better. Except once they get burned by Linux CRAP like Motorola did, I wouldn't be surprised to see manufacturers and carriers becoming a LOT more receptive to Microsoft.

I believe DoCoMo is just hedging their bets. If Access fails to deliver on schedule, DoCoMo isn't going to sacrifice their main business just because they have an investment in Access.

Regarding Access' track record: Have they EVER undertaken anything as big as NetFrontLinux? A history of successfully delivering a browser doesn't suddenly guarantee that they will be able to deliver an ENTIRE MULTIFACETED MOBILE PLATFORM on time. I think you're underestimating the number of things that can (and WILL) go wrong and are overestimating the patience of potential licensees. PalmSource did the same thing with Cobalt/PalmLinux and look what happened to them.


By the time Access' DogFoodOS is ready (2008!), hardware will likely have reached the point that a lot of sloppy Linux platforms can brute force their way onto cellphones. What advantage will Access have then?

Come on now, Marty. Do you REALLY believe Nokia doesn't have cellphone plans for Maemo? Puh-lease.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
Surur @ 2/19/2006 7:11:59 PM # Q

You underestimate the Asian anti-Microsoft sentiment.

I think this is overestimated (despite the x-box doing miserably there). Apparently when the Sharp W-ZERO3 ( http://www.engadget.com/2005/10/20/sharp-releases-w-zero3-ws003sh-qwerty-pocket-pc/ ) shipped in Japan there were queue's around the block, and when the XDA Atom ( http://www.seeo2.com/product/XdaAtom/template/XdaAtomProductInfo.vm ) was released it was sold out on pre-order. MS products are actually quite popular in Asia, and is widely pirated ;) Of note is that the vast majority of WM OEM's are Asian, and are raking it in on the basis of MS's OS.

WinCE is hardly an 'advanced' OS, even today.

I'm not qualified to judge this. I wonder however if you would explain what you feel and advanced mobile OS would look like (in features, e.g. multi-tasking, encryption, one-handed usage etc) and what you feel WM and the Access offering needs.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

The way west
PenguinPowered @ 2/19/2006 9:50:06 PM # Q
Ah, Jesse is one of the architects, eh? My codolences^wcongratulations, Jesse. Jesse's a good guy. I have no trouble at all believing he'll do the best possible job that Sunnyvale can do now.

Is PalmSource China supposed to be the Saviour? Apparently so.

There has to be a fascinating story behind how PSRC's digesting of CMS went, and I hope one day to hear it. But no, I doubt anyone's relying on CMS for MAX -- Sunnyvale, after all, is hiring UI and UX folks.

Regarding Access' track record: Have they EVER undertaken anything as big as NetFrontLinux?

No. Given my own background is in large scale distributed systems before I went to PSRC, I find ALP to be a smallish project, but it is larger than what Access has done in the past.

However, project size isn't the interesting part of Access' track record. Read their history over and note what it is they have done well, several times. It is that which gives me reason to believe they'll do well this time. (Hint: Logo -> TCP -> Browser -> WAP2)

Come on now, Marty. Do you REALLY believe Nokia doesn't have cellphone plans for Maemo? Puh-lease.

I think Nokia is hedging their bets. If things go well for Maemo and Linux seems to make sense, then they'll be on it like a shot, and they'll own the Linux telephony space. But I'm not predicting that they'll go there, just yet.

To sum it up: (Caveat: The entire ALP project has unfolded since I left PSRC. I don't have any insider knowledge on this.)

I think Access will deliver ALP.

I think they'll be late. Before the ALP announcement I wasn't willing to offer an opinion, but since ALP is all stuff done since I left, I will: I think they're at least 15 months away from delivering a platform with MAX to licensees.

I think Access will eventually shift the focus of MAX development away from Sunnyvale to Tokyo.

I think Access will shift the Linux focus to Nanjing.

I find the whole idea of PSRC-France implementing telephony on top of openBinder to be hillariously ironic, but you'll have to find out why from someone in Montpellier.

I think Nokia is taking a go-slow approach to Maemo and waiting for the hardware to catch up, so that even late, Access will be able to deliver in a competitive time frame, in Asia.

I think FrankenGarnet was the last real release of PalmOS, and there ain't gonna be no mo'.

As I hinted at several months ago, there's still a wild card in the telephony Linux market, about which I know nothing, except its existance. That's Google and its electric sheep. They want to change the entire business of wireless communication, and other than living in a community they intend to light up with wi-fi RealSoonNow, I don't know anything about their plans.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 10:48:02 PM # Q
Ah, Jesse is one of the architects, eh? My codolences^wcongratulations, Jesse. Jesse's a good guy. I have no trouble at all believing he'll do the best possible job that Sunnyvale can do now.

"he'll do the best possible job that Sunnyvale can do now."

You're hilarious, Marty. Really. Can the praise GET any fainter?

Is PalmSource China supposed to be the Saviour? Apparently so.

There has to be a fascinating story behind how PSRC's digesting of CMS went, and I hope one day to hear it. But no, I doubt anyone's relying on CMS for MAX -- Sunnyvale, after all, is hiring UI and UX folks.

Correction: PalmSource in Sunnyvale is TRYING to hire. Several months after posting, most positions seem to be open. What a surprise. I'm expecting the USA branch of PalmSource to be pretty much shut down within a year or so. Access Japan and the China MobileSoft are probably all that will be left in a couple years - assuming Access hasn't imploded by then.

>>>Regarding Access' track record: Have they EVER undertaken anything as big as NetFrontLinux?

No. Given my own background is in large scale distributed systems before I went to PSRC, I find ALP to be a smallish project, but it is larger than what Access has done in the past.

However, project size isn't the interesting part of Access' track record. Read their history over and note what it is they have done well, several times. It is that which gives me reason to believe they'll do well this time. (Hint: Logo -> TCP -> Browser -> WAP2)

How about just saying "Access has never taken on a project even slightly as big as or remotely similar to what they're trying to accomplish now"?

Come on now, Marty. Do you REALLY believe Nokia doesn't have cellphone plans for Maemo? Puh-lease.

I think Nokia is hedging their bets. If things go well for Maemo and Linux seems to make sense, then they'll be on it like a shot, and they'll own the Linux telephony space. But I'm not predicting that they'll go there, just yet.

You're hilarious, Marty. Maemo will be in Nokia phones within a year. The hardware will no longer choke on it once Nokia strips out some of the bells and whistles from the 770 setup and Nokia starts using new chips later this year.

To sum it up: (Caveat: The entire ALP project has unfolded since I left PSRC. I don't have any insider knowledge on this.)

Is this your "forward reaching statement" disclaimer? Get me Legal on Line 3, Ms. Jones.

I think Access will deliver ALP.

And I think PalmSource "delivered" Cobalt. Seen any Cobalt phones recently? (26 months AFTER Cobalt supposedly went gold.)

I think they'll be late.

No kidding.

Before the ALP announcement I wasn't willing to offer an opinion, but since ALP is all stuff done since I left, I will: I think they're at least 15 months away from delivering a platform with MAX to licensees.

OK, so you think licensees might get DogFoodOS around May 2007 AT THE EARLIEST. Add another 12 - 24 months for device creation, certification + carrier testing -> devices in the hands of users by May 2008 - May 2009. Get serious. By that time hardware will practically be capable of running Windows XP and Photoshop! Microsoft and more aggressive Linux companies will have locked up the market by then. NetFrontLinux/DogFoodOS brings NOTHING to the table that is so special that people will feel compelled to switch. The PalmOS library is simply not worth that much anymore. (Even I admit that Windows Mobile apps are generally superior to their PalmOS equivalents. Companies that make versions for both platforms - e.g. like Resco Viewer - clearly demonstrate how far behind the curve PalmOS has fallen.) And MAX as a fledgeling app environment won't have a snowball's chance in he11 of competing on its own merits.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: no NetFrontLinux for at least 18 - 24 months.

I think Access will eventually shift the focus of MAX development away from Sunnyvale to Tokyo.

Is Max development even concentrated in Sunnyvale NOW? I doubt it. Sunnyvale is living on borrowed time.

I think Access will shift the Linux focus to Nanjing.

Probably already happened.

I find the whole idea of PSRC-France implementing telephony on top of openBinder to be hillariously ironic, but you'll have to find out why from someone in Montpellier.

Let me guess: they had already developed another kernel module to deal with memory allocation etc with their telephony middleware? Every time someone announces A New Plan, so much code gets flushed down the toilet it's ridiculous.

I think Nokia is taking a go-slow approach to Maemo and waiting for the hardware to catch up, so that even late, Access will be able to deliver in a competitive time frame, in Asia.

I think Nokia is just being careful not to screw things up (Motorola-style). It just so happens that in a year the hardware will no longer be choking on Maemo. They then announce a stylish, killer lineup of "Linux phones" and sit back and watch the profits skyrocket.

I think FrankenGarnet was the last real release of PalmOS, and there ain't gonna be no mo'.

Obviously PalmOS 5/FrankenPalmOS is the end of the line. PalmOS has now been reduced to a gimmicky afterthought added on to NetFrontLinux in an effort to give it a foot in the door. Reminds me a little of how Lenovo has kept the IBM Thinkpad name on their laptop lineup.

I'm glad I stocked up on CLIEs when I could...

As I hinted at several months ago, there's still a wild card in the telephony Linux market, about which I know nothing, except its existance. That's Google and its electric sheep. They want to change the entire business of wireless communication, and other than living in a community they intend to light up with wi-fi RealSoonNow, I don't know anything about their plans.

IF the telcos and cellcos don't manage to stop Google, all he11 is gonna break loose next year. Imagine Nokia, Motorola, LG, Sony Ericsson, Sprint, Verizon, Cingular etc all becoming redundant for a LOT of people in big cities (yes, not everyone) almost overnight. Somehow Google will have to be stopped through legislation. But the GoogleNet is here and it's already happening. Don't be afraid, children. Go into the light...

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
AdamaDBrown @ 2/20/2006 12:08:15 AM # Q
You underestimate the Asian anti-Microsoft sentiment.

What anti-Microsoft sentiment? The fact that Windows and the XBox don't sell well there? Show me a product in that class that DOES do well on the Asian market. Japan and Korea are saturated by their own products, making it practically impossible for foreign goods to break in. China loves cheap, free, nearly free, open source, and stolen. You have to when you're running on their economy. Likewise for India, and most of the minor countries of the region. High-margin western goods can't sell there, and for western companies, the margins aren't good enough to justify targeting them. People overestimate the attraction to alternate systems. Show me a Japanese citizen who, with the equivalent of $500 to spend on a video game, is going to choose the XBox over a local product. Microsoft can't get in because they're either out-competed, and because they price their products into the stratosphere, not because Asians engage in the same anti-Microsoft trash-talk favored by the U.S. geek chic.

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
hkklife @ 2/20/2006 12:50:33 AM # Q
No, the MAIN difference between Palm & Lenovo is that the Chinese are still selling well-built, solidly constructed pieces of equipment (I'm just going by my experience with Thinkpads here, of course) that barely differ from what IBM was selling there at the end.

Palm/PalmSource, have a looong way to go to catch up with that "you get what you pay for" paradigm. Of course look at all of the other "names" in tech that are just a shell of what they once were---Gateway, Atari, Micron, SGI etc etc ad nauseum. The annals of tech history are littered with has-beens and former glories. To MANY, seeing "Palm" live on as a "gimmicky add-on" is STILL better than seeing it disappear completely.

I'll reserve judgement until (if?) something ships.

Question:
Does anyone here serious think Palm's going to come out of left field and deliver their own home-brewed OS sometime between now and '07? I have to return to the Atari example yet again but look what happened between Atari Inc. and Atari Games--connected by NAME only for the better part of a decade and fielding completely different offerings & products. Since PalmSource won't be able to call it "Palm OS" much longer they might as well retire the PalmSource moniker and let Palm Inc. carry the flag.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
freakout @ 2/20/2006 5:35:25 AM # Q
"Does anyone here serious think Palm's going to come out of left field and deliver their own home-brewed OS sometime between now and '07?"

They've got to at least have thought about it since they lost PalmSource. I suppose the question is cost and whether there are actually enough experienced people to hire. Given the reported difficulties Palmsource has had filling vacant positions, I doubt they'd be able to pull the resources together. Unless someone wants to correct me...

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
AdamaDBrown @ 2/20/2006 7:32:35 PM # Q
Does anyone here serious think Palm's going to come out of left field and deliver their own home-brewed OS sometime between now and '07?

If I were them, I'd certainly be looking at it. Right now they have basically three options: go with whatever Access comes out with, no matter whether or not it's suited for what they want to do; go Windows for all or nearly all of their product line, and lose most Palm OS upgraders; or try to stretch Garnet until something else comes along, and risk losing most of their remaining marketshare.

It's not a pleasent choice. If I were them, I'd have 15 guys tucked away somewhere designing a relatively simple OS with a Palmesque UI and StyleTap-class app compatibility. Nothing too major, but capable of delivering a Palm OS experience plus some of the more advanced infrastructure that's needed to go forward: multitasking, better driver support, a more modular architechture, etcetera. It doesn't need to be a massive project--a simple piece of construction could go a long way.

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/20/2006 8:10:31 PM # Q
>>>Does anyone here serious think Palm's going to come out of left field and deliver their own home-brewed OS sometime between now and '07?

If I were them, I'd certainly be looking at it. Right now they have basically three options: go with whatever Access comes out with, no matter whether or not it's suited for what they want to do; go Windows for all or nearly all of their product line, and lose most Palm OS upgraders; or try to stretch Garnet until something else comes along, and risk losing most of their remaining marketshare.

It's not a pleasent choice. If I were them, I'd have 15 guys tucked away somewhere designing a relatively simple OS with a Palmesque UI and StyleTap-class app compatibility. Nothing too major, but capable of delivering a Palm OS experience plus some of the more advanced infrastructure that's needed to go forward: multitasking, better driver support, a more modular architechture, etcetera. It doesn't need to be a massive project--a simple piece of construction could go a long way.

I believe Palm is trying to come up with an alternate OS but obviously will fail. If it was simple to cobble together a decent mobile OS then Cobalt, PalmLinux, Maemo, etc would all already be rock solid OSes. Despite tens of millions of $$$ and SEVERAL years of development using scores of codemonkeys, all those OSes have yet to (and in some cases never will!) leave beta stage.

When Palm let PalmOS slip through their fingers they sealed their fate. Even if they had the resources to clean up PalmOS 5, that's still a dead end platform. Palm's destiny is to gradually fade away as JAWL (Just Another WinMob Licensee) and play out the string with a couple more PalmOS devices. The feature-packed Mindows Mobile smartphones and PDAs are going to eat Palm alive now that PalmOS is gone and the playing field has been levelled.

By the way, has Palm managed to make ANY significant improvements to the Treo 600 design they were given by Handspring? Given Palm's inability to innovate they'll be sitting ducks when the gloves come off in the 2006 Windows Mobile Smartphone CAGEMATCH.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
hkklife @ 2/20/2006 8:31:39 PM # Q
The best Palm could hope for would be to spring a "face lifted" OS 5.5 on us this fall and hope to buy another two years or so with the wicked tandem of it and WinMob.

What few improvements Palm has made to the Treo 600 design over the past few years have been SO minimal (larger, brighter keys...Athena connector...EVDO...320*320 screen....Bluetooth) that Handspring could've easily done it themselves had they had the cash reserves to do it.

Palm could've at least introduced a compelling hew formfactor and/or injected some badly-needed style with the launch of the 700w. Instead we get...more of the same! Like it or not at least the LifeDrive was well built and LOOKED new and moderately trendy!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
freakout @ 2/21/2006 3:27:46 AM # Q
I'm still curious to see what Hollywood will bring to the table. Colligan called it their "next-gen device"; I think it will be the big indicator of Palm's future plans.

Whichever OS it runs, will be the one Palm is hitching its wagon to for future devices.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

A few suggestions for articles to post as the END draws near:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 3/14/2006 2:13:08 AM # Q
1) A listing of proven companies specializing in repairing, providing replacenent batteries and memory upgrades for older PDAs.

2) Articles showing some simple Do It Yourself repairs/battery replacement techniques or links to sites outlining those procedures.

3) A permanent "Tech Support" thread in which users can ask questions in a centralized area that will be read by many visitors.

4) And all-inclusive article/series of articles/database summarizing EVERY PalmOS PDA and smartphone ever released. Manufacturer, model, month + year released, original MSRP, photo, specs, significant pros, significant cons, links to any active manufacturer support page. Yes, this would be a big undertaking, but the Palminfocenter community has enough power users that such an important archive project could be created fairly quickly. It could also be updated periodically with information submitted by readers.

5) A series of articles (weekly?) outlining the choices available for various app categories:

- Launcher
- File manager
- Backup program
- Photo viewer
- Security program
- Hack manager
- Alarm clock
- Financial program
- Datebook replacement
- List/shopping program
- Password manager
- Email program
- Chat program
- Calculator
- Word processor
- Browser
- Drawing program
- Spreadsheet
- Unit converter
- Chess program
- MP3 player
- Video player
- Address replacement
- DA launcher
- Memo replacement
- Database program
- Benchmarking utility
- To Do replacement
- Blogging program
- Restaurant/food/wine program
- DVD/movie database
- Completely useless program

etc, etc. A simple list of the top 5 or 10 apps in a category would suffice for the article - readers could then post why they feel a particular program (including any not mentioned in the article) is a good or bad choice.


A "Classifieds" section where readers can request and offer to sell specific PDAs and accessories would also be a nice addition to link to the front page.


TVoR

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
AdamaDBrown @ 3/14/2006 4:17:51 AM # Q
There's already a Classifieds section in the forums.

RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
hkklife @ 3/14/2006 10:15:12 AM # Q
I don't know who would be up for it but a LOT of the PIC regular, time permitting, could pull off most of what you ask in a couple of days.

Between Voice, Foo, Adama, myself, and a few of the 'silent' regulars (klw/sleuth, Potter etc) the POS handheld archive could be pretty easily established. Palm's archival material on their site for the old models is pretty good. I am sure Voice & some of the old Cliesource regulars could fill in at least partial info for the scores of Clies.

I do agree on the Tech Support thread. Perhaps have the PIC Forums broken into sub-groups? Example: Have "Palm PDAs Discussion" and "Palm PDAs Tech Support"

It's important not to divide things up TOO much or you'll end up with overload. Perhaps just have Palm PDA discussion/tech support and then Palm Treo discussion/tech support. All of the other, how shall we say, "hibernating" manufacturers (Symbol, Alphasmart, Tapwave, Sony, Garmin etc) can maintain their single forum category for now.

I'd vote for LegoDude to be the admin of the DIY repairs/replacement section. Perhaps even a co-sponsorship by PDAParts or someone offering direct referral links from PIC to their webstore containing all of the parts mentioned in their article?

Good suggestions. Now we just need the manpower by some of the dedicated readers here to make all of this happen!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Classified ads at Palminfocenter
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 3/14/2006 4:17:09 PM # Q
There's already a Classifieds section in the forums.

Yes, but who is going to bother hunting to find it? A simplified main page for Palminfocenter with links to the main parts of the site would be more likely to achieve the critical mass necessary to be worth sustaining.

Don Lapre and classified ads
Admin @ 3/14/2006 4:24:50 PM # Q
I don't think it makes sense to program a whole new section, when the forums/ebay/craigslist work just fine for this.
RE: Hey kiddies! It's deja-vu all over again!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 3/14/2006 4:32:31 PM # Q
Perhaps, but people are a probably more likely to get fleeced on eBay than they would be buying from a trustworthy source at Palminfocenter.
Reply to this comment

Palm OS is dead! ... and good riddance I guess

pmjoe @ 2/17/2006 8:27:02 AM # Q
Well, back in the days when they finally killed off the Amiga OS in favor of some Tao/Amiga thing that could supposedly run everything in it's virtual machine but really a lot of nothing, I had scathing criticisms of how they'd ended what was an elegant OS (tight, message-based kernel, efficient GUI) in favor some bloated abstract nothingness.

You'll hear none of that here. The old Palm "OS" was a PIM GUI API written on top of a 3rd party kernel which their licensor never allowed them to expose. Garnet was an emulator so that we could run the old "OS" applications on a different CPU. You never wanted to look to deep on the Palm "OS" because it never really was an OS. If the Palm "OS" was ever going to become a more complete competitor in the mobile arena (and/or compete with Microsoft) they needed to be a real Palm OS. ALP is definitely an OS.

Usually when I see diagrams like this, they look like fluff, but this one actually makes sense. Instead of never knowing what Palm[Source] was doing OS-wise, the path is now right there in front of us and the questions are obvious. The big one being: will they ever really call it Palm OS? The number 2 big question is what are these MAX SP & WHH Widgets like and will there be an easy way for Palm OS developers to port their apps to them? What is there to motivate developers to use the MAX application framework, when they can write more portable apps using GTK+ and the lower level libraries? Can all this stuff on top of a Linux kernel really capture the "Zen of Palm"? Can this MAX Application Launcher pull it all together seamlessly? Will the GUI widgets look/work reasonably the same across the different types of apps (GTK+, J2ME, Palm 68k and MAX)? How much will the new PIM apps be like the existing Palm OS ones? Personally, I'm still not sold on Linux for embedded-type devices, but ACCESS is supposed to be good at this, and I'm encouraged that the PalmSource folks are working on the UI.

All in all, OS-wise, this is the best Palm related thing I've seen. It took guts for someone to finally drop the Palm "OS" and try to make it into a Palm OS. I hope they can do it, because somebody had to.

RE: Palm OS is dead! ... and good riddance I guess
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 10:11:40 AM # Q
Great comment. And I do think you're getting to the heart of the matter. The critical question is what MAX brings to the platform that you don't get by writing to the bare GTK+ API. Based on the fact that ALP was born out of a decision to abandon a two-pronged (high-end/low-end) approach, which itself probably had some good business reasoning behind it, I'm going to venture a guess that MAX is where the design work is occurring that bridges the high and low most effectively. In other words, if you want the best user experience on both touchscreen *and* non-touchscreen devices, I'm guessing MAX is going to be your man. GTK and 68k apps may be fine where there is a touchscreen, but not so fine when there isn't.

On a separate issue, I'm starting to think that the fact that PalmSource hasn't released any screenshots is a sign that they're not going to release them. Not until they've worked a few more things out concerning the MAX framework. I think it's great that they had a demo, but this has been a *major* course correction moving from Picasso to GTK+ and collapsing two frameworks down into one, all within 3 months. I'd be surprised if PalmSource really wants us to think that what they showed in Barcelona is indicative of what licensees will get way off at the end of the year.

From what I understand, they haven't yet decided things as fundamental as whether the framework is going to be built on top of X Windows or not. They used X for the demo, from what I understand, but I don't see it anywhere in the architecture diagram. I believe whoever drew up that diagram was thinking "no X Windows" when they wrote "GTK+ (optimized)".

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS is dead! ... and good riddance I guess
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 1:37:40 PM # Q
ALP, IMO, was born out a desire by Access to be a platform vendor, back in '04. In many ways the diagram doesn't differ from the one Surur pointed out from the Access think piece. Actually it only differs in three ways, reflecting the reality of Access buying PSRC:

1) It pays lip service to PalmOS developers by including POSE
2) It names specific facilities in place of a lot of the vagueness, ie, Linux kernel version, GTK+, BlueZ, SQLite, OpenBinder.
3) Max and the telephony stack.

IMO they're not releasing screen shots of MAX because there are no screenshots to release.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Palm OS is dead! ... and good riddance I guess
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 1:54:51 PM # Q
IMO they're not releasing screen shots of MAX because there are no screenshots to release.

You're probably right. Where did we get the idea that they demo-ed MAX rather than just the emulation of Palm OS? The press release is faster than the eye!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: MAX Demo
Admin @ 2/17/2006 2:09:04 PM # Q
PalmSource told me it was demo'd in Barcelona. I've also been speaking with Jose from PDAExpertos, who took that N60 photo and he did attend the demo. He did confirm that they showed the MAX interface and other aspects of ALP. However, he said it was difficult to take photos and that they only allowed him to take a shot of the memos app.

-Ryan

RE: Palm OS is dead! ... and good riddance I guess
Scott R @ 2/18/2006 8:09:15 AM # Q
This new article gives me new hope, though it's still too far off for me to put any real trust in it.

I'm encouraged that they've got Americans working on the UI. The UI is what the user interacts with and it's critical and while the US may be outsourcing everything they can, good UI skills are still strongest here. Of course, that doesn't mean that they actually *have* skilled UI folks at PalmSource. Remember, they haven't created an all-new UI since the original Palm UI and the people responsible for that are working at Palm, not PalmSource.

I suspect that MAX will end up making use of the ROME research. Whatever that is. It sounded like it was in its infancy when last we heard about it and we've never seen any actual drawn-up concepts of what it might look like. I'm glad to hear that they're rethinking the UI from the ground-up with a focus on the same zen/efficiency that the original Palm UI offered. IOW, I interpret all this to mean that this new UI will not look or act like the Palm UI in most respects but, *like* the original Palm UI, it will be designed from the ground-up to offer a zen-like experience (i.e., highly efficient).

That's a very good thing, IMO. Whether or not I'll agree with their assessment will have to wait until they actually release some mockups/flowcharts of the UI and how it will work.

Microsoft will still have a big advantage over them, though. They've got a robust RAD IDE in VS.NET. Whereas it looks like coding for ACCESS/PalmSource's platform will require low-level coding with C++.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

Reply to this comment

NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?

Radu Coc @ 2/17/2006 1:37:03 PM # Q
I want a good browser for my Zire72, but ACCESS was release the last NetFront version (3.3) only for WinCE&Co. and not for PalmOS. Why not an version for PalmOS? If they bought PalmSource, why they support Wince&Co and not Palm? We will have a version of actual NetFront (3.3) or at least the next version (3.4, who will be released of the end of march), for PALM?

All peoples are talking about internet and wireless capabilities, but what about MULTIMEDIA AND 3D GRAPHICS SUPPORT in the ALPOS? They say nothing about this.

And what about UNICODE and font support? Will be also like native support for TTF or is something like we need to convert the fonts for an specific MAX format?

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 2:05:45 PM # Q
what about MULTIMEDIA AND 3D GRAPHICS SUPPORT in the ALPOS?

Multimedia is in the pretty picture from PalmSource. It's rather vague compared to the diagrams we've seen for Cobalt, which showed MiniGL under the hood. Is the work the PalmSource developers were doing with OpenGL going the way of the rest of Cobalt?

IIRC, even with Cobalt 3D graphics support wasn't in the picture, but I could be mistaken. Personally, I'd prefer *not* to spend money on the hardware it would take to do 3d graphics, which would mean bigger batteries, bulkier handsets, shorter battery life, etc.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
hkklife @ 2/17/2006 2:07:25 PM # Q
3d graphics are "non-essential" in Palm's eye so I assume they are going to take a pass on that. As far as fonts, I would ASSume that the scalable font architecture of Cobalt will likely just be lifted from its carcass and implemented under ALP/Plinux etc.

Multimedia is sort of a "1990s" term in that everything non-3d (mp3, wave audio, 2d sprite handling) is pretty well supported under Garnet as-is. I'd expect that the latest generation of TI/Intel CPUs will have proper driver support by PalmSource/Access and the individual licensees (assuming any are left by that time) such as Palm, LG etc. will be left to write their own drivers/hacks.

For your Zire 72 you already have the best current browser....Web Pro 3.5.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
bcombee @ 2/17/2006 2:52:54 PM # Q
The NetFront engine is used by the Blazer browser that Palm produces for their devices. ACCESS and Palm have been collaborating for years, with the first NF-powered version being Blazer 3.0 that shipped on the Handspring Treo 600.

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
hkklife @ 2/17/2006 2:56:28 PM # Q
a GOOD port of Doom, Duke Nukem 3d etc. can be done with a software-only video routines as they are not "true" 3d (basically 2.5d). I wouldn't want to try and play anything as complex as Quake or anything actually requiring 3d acceleration anyway.

For a general rule of thumb, the GameBoy Advance & Zodiac both use hardware accelerated 2D video hardware. Both units would theoretically offer games/graphics comparable to a next-gen Palm platform that's not optimized for gaming. And both units (GBA + Zod) pull off pretty decent pseudo 3d effects in software and w/ 2d hardware so I wouldn't worry about it.

All that stuff like open GL or any other 3d API would do is open the door for a bunch of active desktop-type fluff (read: bloat & battery drain) or 3d screensavers (read: bloat & battery drain) anyway.

I'm much more concerned about the HARDware side of things such as Palm using better quality amps, headphone jacks etc. and a better default media player software experience.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
Surur @ 2/17/2006 2:59:08 PM # Q

Will any future Netfront browsers come to Garnet, now that they are coding for GTK/Max on Linux?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 3:10:51 PM # Q
Whether or not ACCESS releases a browser for Garnet (besides Blazer) has nothing to do with them now "coding for GTK".

They already have a GTK+ version of NetFront so it's probably not going to be a lot of work: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=8322

It is curious that there are versions of the NetFront-branded browser for every platform under the sun except Palm OS (excluding the ones shipped with the Clie--which only makes the situation curiouser now that the Clie is gone). Could Palm have an agreement with ACCESS that keeps a NetFront browser from "competing" with Blazer? And would the existence of such a strange agreement be any less mysterious than the absence of NetFront for Palm OS in the first place?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
hkklife @ 2/17/2006 3:11:08 PM # Q
Access just said in their statement the other day that the upcoming new Netfront browser is coming to "Palm OS" so that is presumably Garnet.

I HIGHLY doubt it'll be offered for devices released under the old PalmSource/Palm regime (what else is new?) but I would expect it to ship on any upcoming FrankenGarnet Treos/Palms.

Perhaps that's one of the reason the new POS Treos are now
rumored to be delayed to July (!) instead of April as previously rumored? Give 'em time to get a new browser tested on it as well as BB Connect?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Netfront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
Surur @ 2/17/2006 3:33:51 PM # Q
I would expect it to ship on any upcoming FrankenGarnet Treos/Palms.

The leaked Treo 700p only had updated (Netfront-derived) blazer 4.5, but no Netfront itself.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 3:35:11 PM # Q
Access just said in their statement the other day that the upcoming new Netfront browser is coming to "Palm OS" so that is presumably Garnet.

Really? Where did you see that?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
hkklife @ 2/17/2006 4:29:02 PM # Q
It was NOT on PIC or Brighthand. It was on one of those "rogue" sites....PalmAddicts or PalmLoyal or Treonauts or something similar. I'll try to dig it up. I am positive I saw it and I am 99% certain it was the actual Access statement/release wording and not some blogger's paraphrasing.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: NetFront 3.3 for PALM OS5?
Scott R @ 2/18/2006 8:21:41 AM # Q
Saying that it would be "coming to Palm OS" is still too vague to assume that it will be released for OS5/Garnet or even on an upcoming Garnet device. They could simply mean that it will come to their all new platform which Palm OS users still think of as Palm OS (even though it's not and won't be allowed to be called that pretty soon).

But I would love for someone with some connections at Access to push them on this issue. Why *NOT* throw existing Palm OS users a bone and release a AJAX-capable (with multi-window support, too, please) up-to-date version of their browser for OS5? I would fully expect them to charge for it and they could make some money off of us. Don't they want our money? I suspect there's a pretty big market of users who would buy this. I would recommend that they put a couple of other extras/improvements and call it a Palm OS Plus pack or something. I've got my credit card ready. Come take my money!

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

Reply to this comment

Ummm. What happened to the feature phone PSRC Access OS?

craigdts @ 2/18/2006 9:19:03 AM # Q
Has everyone forgot the promised Palm OS based feature phone OS by June '06. I presume that a Palm feature phone platform was mainly being developed for Palm, Inc. PSRC/Access quietly dropping this promised project tells me that Palm, Inc.'s interest has moved elsewhere. I personally beleive that Palm, Inc. has moved on and is heading down the path to developing their own OS.

Assuming Palm remains an independent company I think they will release their own OS down the road (or having an OS may fan the buyout flames). Palm has done what it needs to in preparation for transitioning their users to a new platform: Purchase Palm OS name, renaming their basic PIM apps (contacts, calendar, memos, etc), and creating their own new user interface (essentially the favorite screen and 5-way navigation). So Palm releasing a new OS, with these core apps and workings in place, will be unnoticable for 99% of users be Palm OS.

Palm still needs a feature phone OS for a low end treo line, unless they intend to use Garnet for this purpose (which I would not rule out). However, I get the idea that a low end feature phone is the best method to reach the mass market. Having a limited OS that does not allow 3rd party installations that can be updated by Palm, Inc. would be received well by carriers. That would avoid most crashes and reduce support costs all around.


RE: Ummm. What happened to the feature phone PSRC Access OS?
craigdts @ 2/18/2006 9:35:06 AM # Q
Oh yeah, off topic, Access really only paid about $150 million for PSRC. I remember a filing or press release that said access had been purchasing PSRC stock before they bought the company which allowed them to pay $300+ million, because much of it went right into their own pockets.

Some considered CMS's customers to be very valuable, was Access wanting those? Sure.

So subtract CMS's value from the purchase price and it looks like PSRC was purchased for $120 million (a reasonable price).

Basically this is a response to those who say "Access didn't pay $300 + million to stop development on Palm platform." Your right they only paid about $120 million to take what they like about it. An open source business model has yet to be tested as a long term business model. Microsoft's business model has worked and businesses like it. They want to be able to go to someone and say fix it and trust that it can be fixed. What happens when there is a problem and business go to Access/PSRC and say "fix it" and they say we don't have the resources, but hopefully the "open source community will fix it. . . just trust the process?"

RE: Ummm. What happened to the feature phone PSRC Access OS
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 11:00:19 AM # Q
I think ACCESS wisely recognized that the feature phone market was too commoditized for PalmSource to expend the effort. They already have a feature phone platform they are selling in Asia--mFone, created by CMS and I'm guessing that has given them a pretty good test of whether this is a good market for PalmSource to go after with yet another feature phone platform.

Gotta figure that this was a matter of focusing on priorities given closing deadlines. Considering the kind of changes made to Palm OS for Linux since it was presented at the DevCon last year, I'd venture a guess that the initial approach of using the Cobalt framework was not going very well. Marty's comments seem to back up this view.

I disagree that Palm needs a feature phone OS. I take them at their word when they say they are only interested in mobile computing and will maintain their focus on platforms that support third party software.

Overall, I think it was a good decision.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Ummm. What happened to the feature phone PSRC Access OS
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 11:37:44 AM # Q
BTW, from what you're saying, ACCESS already had a majority stake in PalmSource. You really think this wouldn't have come out at some point?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Ummm. What happened to the feature phone PSRC Access OS
SeldomVisitor @ 2/18/2006 11:58:08 AM # Q
Any stake greater than 5% would have come out.

SEC filing (13G) required.

RE: Ummm. What happened to the feature phone PSRC Access OS?
craigdts @ 2/18/2006 12:37:24 PM # Q
I read an article that detailed the stock purchase. However I looked for it and can't find it. I thought you might be able to hengeem, however I don't ever remember seeing you comment on it, so I guess you missed it. It was only mentioned in one article giving details about the purchase. I remember reading it and thinking hmmm that does not seem fair, but oh well.

Would it have to have been filed in the same way PSRC elected not to file their final Quarterly report since they were being aquired? If so then you can understand why they didn't want many people knowing about the purchase.

RE: Ummm. What happened to the feature phone PSRC Access OS
SeldomVisitor @ 2/18/2006 1:16:49 PM # Q
Please note that "blog articles" are even less reliable than the VERY unreliable Me-Too Media articles.

All news reports and filings that I saw mentioned strictly $300+ million; absolutely none - none - mentioned Access buying anything significant beforehand (indeed, none mentioned ANY prepurchase at all).

RE: Ummm. What happened to the feature phone PSRC Access OS
PenguinPowered @ 2/18/2006 2:35:33 PM # Q
There are several open source business models that have been tested and found acceptable to the market. The one that addresses service is used by, for example, RedHat and Novell (SuSE).

It is extremely unlikely that Access bought more than a few percent of PSRC in the run up to the purchase without filing with the SEC, as that's a very bad no-no, and the price run up was investigated and no problem found.

The feature phone PalmOS is killed, er, I mean, delayed, according to this announcement. The modular nature of ALP should make it possible to derive a feature phone from it, though. Just six months later.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment

What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?

fadrianoc @ 2/18/2006 10:06:13 AM # Q
I wonder:

>Palm OS Emulation
>ALP has been designed to ensure that properly written Palm OS >68K applications will run unchanged.

What does it mean ?
The Palm Os 5 programs will run unchanged too ?
Or not ?


RE: What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?
Admin @ 2/18/2006 1:56:57 PM # Q
Yes, anything that properly runs on Palm OS 5 Garnet now, will work under ALP.
RE: What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 2:16:10 PM # Q
Really, is that what your understanding was from talking with Albert Chu? It'd be very good news if "well behaved" just meant the same thing to Palm developers that it's meant for the last 5 years.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?
hkklife @ 2/18/2006 2:30:39 PM # Q
Close to 1/2 of the apps/games I registered for my T|T (ie in the past 3.5 years) have been abandoned/are incompatible with my T3/T5/TX/have not been updated for HVGA screens.

I don't consider any of that "well-behaved". I've simply tossed too much $ away registering Palm software over the years that became broken one or two devices later while STILL within OS 5.x! From here on if it's not released by Astraware/Splash Data/Dataviz/Normsoft I am VERY reluctant to pay good $ for it.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 2:36:30 PM # Q
One thing I hope PalmSource has learned from their experience is that developing an OS that supports an ecosystem of device and software developers means you have a responsibility to enforce some fairly strict standards on your licensees to ensure compatibility between them. Letting everyone run off and do their own implementations of stuff while certifying it all as "Palm OS" has been a major reason why many developers gave up hope trying to write applications for each new device that came out.

Users complain about the spotty support for HVGA and the dynamic input area, but it's hard to find two devices that implement this in exactly the same way, which puts developers in a difficult situation: they often don't have the time or resources to both support new devices with the old features *and* add the features that their customers want. That was the reason that long-time Palm OS developer Jean Ichbiah (TextWare) decided to end further development of FITALY.

I hope ACCESS will help PalmSource be a little more tough with their licensees on this point. An operating system is a contract with your developer community and PalmSource is responsible for making sure that contract is upheld even if licensees pressure it to let them violate it.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 2:48:56 PM # Q
Incidentally, my comment above is one reason why I'm not terribly concerned if ACCESS and PalmSource take their sweet time getting everything right before they release. The better the MAX API can anticipate the things that licensees and developers will want to do, the less pressure there will be to make compatibility-breaking "improvements" to it down the road and the easier it will be to build a strong ecosystem of hardware and software developers.

It'd be great if there was some kind of a preview release that would enable developers to work with the new framework and make comments on it before a final version was released to the licensees. I think PalmSource could get some very useful information from this and it could really help with the developer buy-in they need for this platform to be a success.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?
PenguinPowered @ 2/18/2006 2:49:21 PM # Q
You don't have to get tough with your licensees to keep them from each implementing new features in different ways. You have to do something nicer to them and harder for you: you have to stay a step ahead of them.

If you provide the APIs for the new feature before your licensees need to implement it, and it's a good API, then they'll implement using the APIs out of their own self interest.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 2:55:43 PM # Q
Well said, Marty. And yes, that's really what I was getting at. PalmSource needs to anticipate and drive the innovation.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: What about Palm Os 5 programs emulation ?
hkklife @ 2/18/2006 4:14:13 PM # Q
Indeed. I bought, just as an example, Bump Attack Pinball after seeing it run on a guy's NR70V at lunch one day a few years ago. The game looked like crud on my T|T but was playable. I then got a T3 later and was VERY dismayed to see that 320*480 on a Palm used different APIs than the same res. on a Clie. The game had already seen its final update months and months prior to me actually purchasing it.

There was one title--a game whose name eludes me now--that I registered during the last month of m505 ownership. It had only come out a few months prior. It was never updated for OS 5 and crashed on my T|T. That was the of the worst $12 I have ever spent.

I mean, we basically have OS5 launch titles, OS5 160*160/Zire aware titles, OS5 "T3" titles, OS5 NVFS-compatible titles, OS5 Clie titles, OS5 Zodiac titles, and OS5 "LifeDrive's crazy memory architecture" titles. ALL of the above run on some flavor of OS5.x released in the past 3.5 years. PalmSource's own software store even tries to flaunt titles for sale that will, in all likelihood, NEVER see another update.

I can see the reasons for discontinuing FITALY but you KNOW a move like that is going to infuritate new TX owners--they'll simply look down and say "This TX LOOKS just like my old T5, screen, case and everything--whaddaya mean it's unsupported?"

PalmSource could either be nice as Marty says, "tough" as David says or simply do nothing. They have taken the path of least resistance, done nothing, and now look where the industry is. I haven't installed a single update to ANY of my freeware or registered titles in maybe 4 months-since DTG 8.1. That's gotta be some kind of record for doldrums in the POS software market!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

POS developers fleeing
Surur @ 2/19/2006 12:36:01 PM # Q

According to the Handango Yardstick for 2005, in 2005 POS added 2125 new apps, down 89% YOY. At the same time WM added 3024 new apps (down 17% YOY).

http://corp.handango.com/PressRelease.jsp?siteId=1&jid=F7AE3AX9AXD3D1X7C9C8X18F128F4336&CKey=1_PRESSRELEASE_PR021406a

The death of other POS licensees must have simplified things immensely for POS developers, but the move to this new platform and the uncertainly surrounding it can not be very encouraging. I'm sure most are seriously thinking about migration strategies.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Reply to this comment

Too Little, Too Late

Gekko @ 2/19/2006 10:25:11 AM # Q

Game over.



Reply to this comment

4 YEARS of Cobalt development, all WASTED. Ridiculous.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 3:41:20 PM # Q
The amount of lies and B.S. that have been spewed by Palm/PalmSource over the past 3 years is astounding.

First we were told how amazing Cobalt was going to be and that it would be shipped before the end of 2003.

We were then told that the version 6.1 of Cobalt was finally ready for prime time in Fall 2004.

We heard that Cobalt 6.1 was a fine OS even though 2 years after it was released there were still NO devices shipping with it. Palm - PalmSource's major customer (accounting for over 90% of PalmOS sales) - completely rejected Cobalt and went as far as to release a device running Windows Mobile instead.

PalmLinux became the "New Plan", supposedly to take advantage of pre-existing code and because Linux was the current "trendy" OS. PalmSource diva, Dianne Hackborn boasted about how creating PalmLinux was going to be a simple matter of swapping out the proprietary Cobalt kernel for a kicky, sexy little Linux kernel. (Too bad it wasn't so simple in real life, huh Ms. Hackborn?) Now that Ms. Hackborn (former Manager of Palm OS Platform Frameworks) has left PalmSource along with the few other competent codemonkeys they had remaining, it's time to admit the writing's on the wall: PalmOS is DEAD.

And now we hear that Cobalt has finally, officially, completely been dumped by its new master. One has to wonder: did Cobalt destroy the PalmOS platform? Looking at how much Cobalt cost Palm/PalmSource in time, money, momentum, credibility and codemonkeypower, the inescapable conclusion is that Cobalt Killed the PalmOS platform. What a legacy. We owe J.L. Gassée and his cabal of Holy Be Engineers a huge debt.

TVoR


http://www.palminfocenter.com//comment_view.asp?ID=8002#110380

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Looks like Yankowski was right all along...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 4:56:51 PM # Q
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8297#116584

3 reasons why PalmLinux will fail:
Carl_Y@ 12/22/2005 12:30:00 AM #

1) Remember all those problems Cobalt had? (Speed, stability, etc.) Well, changing the kernel doesn't magically make them disappear.

2) Remember how easy Dianne Hackborn said it would be to swap out the Nasty Proprietary PalmSource kernel and slip in the Lovely Linux Messiah™ kernel, saving all those perfect pieces of Creamy Cobalt Goodness? Well it was all B.S.

3) Remember how PalmSource said Cobalt (6.0) was ready in December, 2003? It wasn't. Remember how PalmSource said Cobalt (6.1) was ready in August, 2004? It wasn't. Remember how PalmSource said Cobalt (6.x) would be ready in Summer, 2006? It won't be.


You have been deceived™. Sorry.


Carl "Bluetooth" Y.


The Fat Man never lied. God rest his soul.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

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SECURITY

mopcodes @ 2/20/2006 1:08:25 PM # Q
Won't going to Linux leave the PDA's open to hacking? Won't they be less secure than with an obscure OS like PALM OS? Kind of like the Apple OSX vs. Windows debate.

D. Martin
Former Amiga/Commodore Author/Writer/Reviewer
RE: SECURITY
PenguinPowered @ 2/20/2006 2:38:09 PM # Q
No.

PalmOS prior to Cobalt had no real security (by design) and you didn't have to be much of a hacker to deal with that.

So Linux, even if it is a target for a much larger hacker audience, is more secuire.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment

Friendly Answers to Friendly Questions

stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 11:37:56 PM # Q
Elsewhere I was asked by Tim Carroll:

1) Any word yet from Palm on what they think of ALP?

It's not really my place to say. You'd have to ask Palm about that.

2) What motivation will developers have to use MAX rather than Java or GTK? Wouldn't it make more sense to use the latter two 'since they're cross-platform?

Depends on what you want out of life. We believe that MAX offers a more consistent, more intuitive, more seamless and easier-to-use experience on small devices than either Java or raw GTK can provide. Cross-platform-ness always involves compromises, in performance, in experience, or both. Of course, if developers want to write in Java or to pure GTK APIs, they'll certainly be able to, and have those applications run on ALP.

3) Will ALP be purely phone-oriented or are Access planning to market it as a PDA OS too?

That's really up to our licensees. If someone wants to make a pure PDA, ALP is certainly suitable for that and I can't imagine we'd stand in their way. ALP is a platform for mobile devices, and while we expect it to be used on phone-like things first, and our development efforts have that goal in mind, there are all sorts of mobile devices. There's no reason why ALP and MAX couldn't power an iPod-like MP3 jukebox, and do an excellent job of it, if that's what someone wanted to do with 'em.

RE: Friendly Answers to Friendly Questions
PenguinPowered @ 3/1/2006 12:34:29 AM # Q
I, of course, have no idea what MAX will be like, but I will say that my experience with writing GUI code in either Java or directly with GTK has been less than pleasant.

GTK, when you get right down to it, is just a widget collection. All of the interesting programming problems are left to the developer.

Java has had a wild ride wrt its GUI designs, and a lot of people have just gone their own way.

There's certainly a niche there to be filled.

May You Live in Interesting Times

An Old Saying I Just Made Up
stonemirror @ 3/1/2006 12:49:47 AM # Q
"The finest screwdriver is a very lousy chisel."

Followup questions
freakout @ 3/1/2006 1:57:00 AM # Q
Followup questions: Where'd MAX come from? Was it something PalmSource was already working on and has just been renamed, is it something that CMS came up with, or is it an entirely new framework that's been put together by PalmSource in the months since the acquisition by Access?

If it was the latter, how the heck did it get built so quickly?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Friendly Answers to Friendly Questions
stonemirror @ 3/1/2006 2:12:01 AM # Q
MAX is "the application framework formerly known as Rome", implemented on top of GTK+ rather than Picasso.

Since we're on a roll....
freakout @ 3/1/2006 2:49:17 AM # Q
How will PalmSource/Access make ALP more attractive to developers and licensees than WinMob?

And will ALP use the multiple-threads multitasking promised for Cobalt, or WinMob style multiple-applications running concurrently?

Will licensees be kept on a tight leash as to what modifications they can make to ALP, or will there be the (somewhat dangerous, as TVoR pointed out in an earlier thread) freedom to hack away and do their own thing? I.E. Handspring's hackjob for the Treo.

If it will be tightly controlled, in what ways will licensees be able to differentiate themselves? Will it be just cosmetic? (i.e. different items/links on the Dynamic Menu)

Thanks for taking the time to answer these.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

And one more *completely* off-topic
freakout @ 3/1/2006 3:10:27 AM # Q
How do I tell the unattractive Sales Manager at work that I'm not interested? I lied my way out of what must have been the tenth offer to "catch a movie" today, and have turned down more free massages than I can count. It's getting extraordinarily uncomfortable. And I don't feel like sharing this information with work colleagues or friends, who would undoubtedly laugh at me for weeks afterward.

So what do you think, internet stranger I've never met? ;)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Friendly Answers to Friendly Questions
stonemirror @ 3/1/2006 9:55:06 AM # Q
How will PalmSource/Access make ALP more attractive to developers and licensees than WinMob?

Well, in a number of ways, I suppose--understand I'm only talking on a semi-techical, not a marketing, level here. For one thing, it ain't Microsoft, which is actually a draw all by itself for many licensees. It's a more open and more transparent platform, since the foundational code is open source. MAX offers the possibility of much more sensible integration between applications and tasks as well. Ultimately, we'll make ALP attractive to licensees through the capabilities it offers and attractive to developers through having those licensees sell a bazillion devices running it...

And will ALP use the multiple-threads multitasking promised for Cobalt, or WinMob style multiple-applications running concurrently?

Neither-nor. It'll be Linux-style multiple concurrent applications. We are doing no damage to the basic Linux execution and process model.

Will licensees be kept on a tight leash as to what modifications they can make to ALP, or will there be the (somewhat dangerous, as TVoR pointed out in an earlier thread) freedom to hack away and do their own thing? I.E. Handspring's hackjob for the Treo.

That's in large measure going to be up to the licensee, I expect. Historically, we've supported a high degree of customizability of the system and flexibility as regards hardware, and that's been a key advantage of Palm OS over Windows Mobile, etc. I don't think those things will change. I imagine there'll continue to be certification processes, etc., but that's not really my department.

If it will be tightly controlled, in what ways will licensees be able to differentiate themselves? Will it be just cosmetic? (i.e. different items/links on the Dynamic Menu)

We've always supported a high degree of differentiation for our licensees, and the range of devices they can produce. I don't think that'll change. And while we'll certainly support the ability to cosmetically customize things--something carriers pretty much demand--I don't think licensees will be limited to the cosmetic.



RE: Friendly Answers to Friendly Questions
stonemirror @ 3/1/2006 10:13:34 AM # Q
How do I tell the unattractive Sales Manager at work that I'm not interested?

Hm. Tough one. Since it's a cow-orker, being extremely unpleasant probably isn't your best option.

Honesty is probably the best policy, but failing that, take her aside and tell her privately that your religious beliefs bar you from seeing movies—or maybe just movies which don't star Scientologists, i.e. Tom Cruise or John Travolta—on the grounds that cinema steals one's soul and replaces it with engrams.

RE: Friendly Answers to Friendly Questions
freakout @ 3/1/2006 4:08:24 PM # Q
...or maybe just movies which don't star Scientologists, i.e. Tom Cruise or John Travolta...

Hang on, I thought that was true of everybody! Lord Xenu *commands* us to see their movies!

Thanks for the answers.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Reply to this comment

TVoR's observations about Truth, Banning + The American Way.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 3/1/2006 12:51:00 AM # Q
I went to respond to a few of the more egregious LIES posted by The Usual Suspects in this tragic thread, only to find it was LOCKED:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8399/#119294

LOCKED??? W T F??? That's the first I've ever seen a thread here locked in all the time I've been around Palminfocenter. When the Apologist Trolls with their not-so-hidden-agendas manage to force Ryan to alter the site, you know they've pretty much won. They cleverly manipulated Ryan into doing their bidding with their non-stop campaign of hypocritical whining and deceit. I hope you eventually see these people for what they really are, Ryan - they suckered you into doing EXACTLY what they have been planning for a LONG time. How many times has David Beers tried to get you to ban me? And why would he want you to do that? Hmmm... It's sad that 4 or 5 manipulative THUGS managed to get you to start trying to "fix" something that wasn't broken.


A few final responses:

1) hengeem posted: >>>> ...I didn't expect hengeem to have posted the complete address...

and, amongst a cast of other trolling posts:

> ...Remember, Marty: I never posted your address. Do you REALLY
> live at the address hengeem posted? ...

Giggle (hook, line, and sinker!).

======

When you post something equivalent to:

== "Marty lives at 1234 LXXXXXr Street, Anytown, CA!"

and there is literally only one street in Anytown, CA that matches an 'L' followed by 5 letters folllowed by an 'r' and someone across the country from Anytown says "Oh, that was easy!", I would posit that it is you doing the address posting.

=====

But now I'm wondering why you ave repeated the "hengeem" assertion at all since trolling for a response out of me is ... just weird.

Better to stick with Marty trolling - they at least are PALM-centric, sort of.

First of all, trolling you would be redundant, hengeem.
Secondly, if you're unsatisfied with your role as an extra working for scale, don't walk up and ask the Director to give you a speaking part. Have your agent send My People a copy of your resumé.
Thirdly, your contribution to this tapestry was some of your finest work. I know I should have given you the script beforehand, but I trusted you would adlib the perfect dialogue for the scene.

;-O


2) Gekko said: If you malcontents had put as much energy and effort into developing COBALT as you do in apologist-posting on this forum, maybe PSRC would still be in business and we'd have a new, real, exciting PalmOS to talk about.

It's too bad the PalmSource Apologists didn't THINK before they made their (sadly predictable) flaming response to Gekko's honest assessment. Think about it: the PalmOS platform is now DEAD, specifically because Palm/PalmSource failed to deliver a next-generation version of PalmOS in the past 3 years. Sony left, most other licensees have given up, Palm lost control of PalmOS and PalmOS development has been permanently abandoned, all because of the fact that the retarded codemonkeys and managers at Palm/PalmSource couldn't get their heads out of their a$$es long enough architect and DELIVER an OS that worked. Of course, these a-holes will never admit they massively screwed up the platform. Instead, they try to deflect attention claiming things like "while we have [insert some ridiculously overinflated number] licensees actively developing Cobalt devices, it is up to each licensee to determine when those devices will be released." Kinda makes you wonder when EVERY PALMOS LICENSEE DECIDED THAT COBALT WAS NOT WORTH TOUCHING WITH A 10 FOOT POLE, DOESN'T IT? The Palm Apologists also will go as far as to blame people like me (those who have the temerity to speak the TRUTH and ask the questions they don't want to answer) for causing the downfall of the platform. Yes, I'm responsible for Cobalt being a slow, buggy, late, steaming pile of dung. Yes, I'm the one who couldn't manage to port Cobalt to a Linux kernel (as if PalmSource could have figured out to do this before 2008). Yes, I'm the one who spun off a company for which the business model essentially GUARANTEED it would hemorrhage cash forever. Yes, I'm the one who allowed the Holy Be Engineers to run amok with their (crack) pipe dreams of bringing back the Perfect Clever Code of BeoS under the guise of delivering PalmOS 6. On behalf of every honest PalmOS pundit, I formally accept the blame for the death of PalmOS.

Ever notice how most Palm Apologists have an ulterior motive for their (futile) attempts to defend Palm/PalmSource's indefensible actions? How many Palm Apologists can anyone list that are not:
a) PalmSource employees
b) Palm employees
c) Developers dependent on the PalmOS platform
d) Angling for a job with one of the Palm companies
e) Naïve children manipulated by one of the above

Can anyone even come up with 5 Palm Apologists that don't fit those criteria? Anyone???

Yet at the same time, ever notice that most of the individuals critical of Palm/PalmSource have no "hidden agendas"? In fact, the most convincing critics tend to be veteran PalmOS users and honest reviewers (like Adama Brown, Kent Pribbernow and hkklife). Unlike the Palm Apologists, these people have zero incentive to lie. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

So the next time you read something from one of the Palm Apologists, ask yourself why they might be telling lies.


3) Surur posted: >>>[Quoting PalmSource employee, David Schlesinger (who apparently believes anyone actually cares about Googling his name!)] It's new, it's real, it's exciting, and I'm looking forward to providing more detail on it. And, as near as I can tell, I'm the only one around these parts who's in a position to speak with any degree of authority about it.

But as I've said at the outset, the expectation that any such sharing would result in the posting of my home address, my family photos, and other personal information in no way relevant to the topic at hand, has significantly diminished my enthusiasm for doing so.

So, there you are.


If you have something useful or interesting to say about ALP, why dont you. Else dont. This whole "You should have treated me better, now I'm taking my ball and going home!" thing is a bit childish.

If you dont like it here, just go. No one is forcing you to be here. Or are you just here to battle it out with VOR?

As usual, some excellent points from Surur. Of course, we all know his last sentence was a rhetorical question! Poor David is still licking his wounds from each of his previous encounters with me, yet - like his former colleague Marty Fouts - inexplicably keeps coming back for more. His "Fight or flight response" apparently needs to be reprogrammed to put a higher priority on self-preservation.

I would not be surprised to see that Surur's mocking exposé of Mr. Schlesinger's churlishness results in us suddenly seeing a Kinder, Gentler Schlesinger in coming days. As always, never forget who you're dealing with when reading posts here.

4) Surur also posted: Kirvin did not care about being attacked by people who were poorly informed, but he sure hated being embarrassed by some-one who could prove him wrong using numbers and independent sources. In the end he could not stand to have every stupid position he took being successfully attacked (and he used to love taking stupid positions, to make his podcasts and editorials more interesting). This eventually caused me to be banned.

Looking at some the people who have been banned at various sites and WHY they were banned is the most effective argument AGAINST banning:

Treocentral.com - Slinky, PurpleX, PurpleZ, The Chupacabra, hengeem

Palminfocenter.com - Surur, The Ugly Truth

1src.com - Surur

allaboutpalm.com (now a DEAD site after censoring all discussion to death) - The Voice of Reason


And let's look at the dumba$$es that "moderate" like this:

http://tinyurl.com/fz7au

**************************************************************************

I left Treocentral in disgust after seeing the petty actions of so-called "moderators" there. hengeem was particularly adept at making the Treokiddies look like idiots and for that he "paid the ultimate price". I stay away from Brighthand and 1src because those sites seem to be overrun with vapid teenagers (especially 1src). If Ryan caves in to the shrill screeching of the 4 or 5 individuals demanding that Palminfocenter changes to conform to their agenda, I'm afraid I'll have to call it a day here. Unlike Beersy, I won't make any dramatic announcements about leaving in a huff - I'll just leave quietly.

I wish you the best of luck managing a website that has informed and entertained millions of people around the world, Ryan. I truly hope you don't destroy that legacy all because you were suckered into kowtowing to 4 or 5 extremely vocal Palm Apologist TROLLS. Perhaps you should seek the advice of some of the more neutral, longtime pundits/PalmOS users like Adama Brown and Pat Horne before you end up making any decisions that you'll regret in the long run.


TVoR

RE: TVoR's observations about Truth, Banning
Admin @ 3/1/2006 12:26:36 PM # Q
For the 10th time, no one has been banned or will be.

I'm not caving into anyone's demands. I simply want to make the comments FRIENDLIER and MORE RESPECTFUL. As such, I will delete/edit any flames, insults or offensive remarks as I always have done.

The ALP Photos story has been locked because there were over 100+ WAAAAAY off-topic comments and they were getting out of hand. Not only did I have to remove poster's private personal info, but plenty of other "xxx sexual references" and mean spirited insults, mostly (but not all) from you TVoR.

I will only be locking threads in extreme cases such as what I describe above.

I am the last person that wants to limit the discussions here, lock any more threads or prevent any openness, however, I will not let anyone abuse my open-policies any further.

Finally if you want to discuss the new comments system this is the place:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=168942


-Ryan

RE: TVoR's observations about Truth, Banning
Admin @ 3/1/2006 3:12:29 PM # Q
btw TVoR - are you going to tell me that you weren't The Ugly Truth, all the smiley face accounts, etc....?
RE: TVoR's observations about Truth, Banning + The American Way.
Simony @ 3/1/2006 3:14:53 PM # Q
The use of the word 'observations' is interesting - 'petulant mewlings' would be more apt.

RE: TVoR's observations about Truth, Banning + The American Way.
hkklife @ 3/1/2006 3:21:23 PM # Q
Hah! I knew Voice was the Ugly Truth & ;-) (or, aka "Facey") all along!

"Five Faces of TVoR" all along...I knew it. I've been posting here since '02 and lurking since '00--I'd recognize that rapier-sharp wit anywhere (that's a compliment, guys).

*grin*

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: TVoR's observations about Truth, Banning + The American
PenguinPowered @ 3/1/2006 3:38:48 PM # Q
they suckered you into doing EXACTLY what they have been planning for a LONG time.

Pretty much sums up how far Skippy's view varies from reality.

You're still posting here Skippy. Nobody got you banned.

You're still as off topic and abusive as ever.

The only one who suckered Ryan into anything is you.

He'll learn eventually.

Hey Ryan, this whole subthread's off topic, and although Skippy has toned his language down a tiny bit this time, its post hardly fits your desire to to make the comments FRIENDLIER and MORE RESPECTFUL.

I await your application of

As such, I will delete/edit any flames, insults or offensive remarks as I always have done.

to Skippy's description of his opponents as thugs, liars, and so forth.

Or do you really think that suggesting that people "get their heads out of their a$$es long enough" is FRIENDLIER and MORE RESPECTFUL?

May You Live in Interesting Times

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Have at it!

SeldomVisitor @ 3/6/2006 7:15:02 PM # Q
RE: Have at it!
SeldomVisitor @ 3/6/2006 7:16:56 PM # Q
Ahem - don't fake answers just to see what the survey is going to ask then try to go back - cookies prevent it.

(however, multiple different browsers allow it!)

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